{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5911", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5911, "subject": "The green man is fake", "messages": 12, "voices": 6, "first": "2011-01-16T21:46:18+00:00", "last": "2011-01-18T14:22:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T21:46:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Is he completely plant-like in energy or can he eat if he has to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe showman gives him only water and threatens as punishment to cover the hole in \nthe top of the tent which allows sunlight in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought he saved him obliquely, or tried to, in Urth of the New Sun, doesn't he? \nOr did he show up too late?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhen Severian recovers from the daze he was in from the old Autarch's analeptic, he\nfinds he is being helped, one on each arm, by the green man and Agia (this odd alliance\nshould raise red flags. Who is it that promotes Agia to head the rebel group?).\n \nLater, Severian tells the green man they are even (\"quits\") one freedm from imprisonment\nfor another. But the green man says that Agia would have saved Severian without him, so he \nmust find another place in time to save him and promises Severian he will see him again. \nPerhaps he does, but Severian does not see the green man again. Not in that guise, anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Smith: I think you're absolutely right in your scientific analysis of the green\nman. But perhaps Wolfe just did not think things through as you have done." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt's possible. But I still get the feeling Gene Wolfe has thought about The Green Man a lot\nmore than I have. I think perhaps he is stitched throughout the whole 12 book Sun series, but\nin ways difficult to recognize." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The laughter is easily explained as expressing the Green Man's \ndisappointment and despair after he had briefly hoped in Severian, and then \nfound him to be an ignorant primitive babbling about a New Sun of which the \ngreen Man had no knowledge (because in his time it is forgotten). And he \nnever promises to rescue Severrian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This \"easy explanation\" doesn't wash with me. There are plenty of disappoined characters\nin BotNS. They don't laugh inhumanly with a sound worse than the alzabo which hasn't even been \nintroduced in the story yet (except as an analeptic). The Alzabo is arguably depicted more hideously \nthan anything else in the story- an ugly, putrid, scavenger/predator which eats you whole then speaks\nin your voice. Now why would Gene Wolfe want to compare the green man to this creature? (p.s. the \ngreen man does promise to save Severian, as noted above)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And we know that the Green Man is a walker through the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If it does, that coming from the the White Fountain seems sufficient." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the green man is powered by a white fountain (Severian's or another) then he is lying\nabout needing Urth's feeble sunlight to live and probably lying about needing Severian's help in\nbreaking free. He is just playing a role. He plays so many roles and tells so many lies (including\nthe one about the locket). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T21:50:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jesus guys/gals, this is a fantasy work, not \"hard-scifi\". IMHO you people are reading way to much into Wolfe when it comes to the actual science portrayed in the books. But that's just me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: severiansola at hotmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 16:46:18 -0500\nSubject: (urth) The green man is fake" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And we know that the Green Man is a walker through the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If it does, that coming from the the White Fountain seems sufficient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the green man is powered by a white fountain (Severian's or another) then he is lying\nabout needing Urth's feeble sunlight to live and probably lying about needing Severian's help in\nbreaking free. He is just playing a role. He plays so many roles and tells so many lies (including\nthe one about the locket). \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T21:58:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, Wolfe is an engineer. He knows how things work, and his\nscience is usually right on. More accurate than most sci fi writers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\n Jesus guys/gals, this is a fantasy work, not \"hard-scifi\". IMHO you people\nare reading way to much into Wolfe when it comes to the actual science\nportrayed in the books. But that's just me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: severiansola at hotmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 16:46:18 -0500\nSubject: (urth) The green man is fake" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And we know that the Green Man is a walker through the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If it does, that coming from the the White Fountain seems\nsufficient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the green man is powered by a white fountain (Severian's or another)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "then he is lying\nabout needing Urth's feeble sunlight to live and probably lying about\nneeding Severian's help in\nbreaking free. He is just playing a role. He plays so many roles and\ntells so many lies (including\nthe one about the locket)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3376B6.6030102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T22:52:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedro Pereira wrote:\nJesus guys/gals, this is a fantasy work, not \"hard-scifi\". IMHO you\npeople are reading way to much into Wolfe when it comes to the actual\nscience portrayed in the books. But that's just me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the reasons that have been recently adduced, I think the books' \nportrayals of science are to be taken very seriously. In fact, I'd say \nthat's one of the important things there - where other authors may fashion \ntalking turnips out of thin air if they need them, GW only does it when he's \ngot a very good rationale for them. A talking turnip in a GW book isn't a \ndeus ex machina, it's an invitation to find its backstory.\n\nThere are a number of ways a green man can be engineered, even only looking \nat the naturally-evolved biological processes we have already uncovered \naround us. And we don't even know the specifics of this green man. How long \nis he supposed to last, for instance. Heck, there *are* animals without a \ngut. Some aren't parasites and don't feed, they just use up their energy and \ndie. According to the Laws of 'Hard' (chuckle) SF, some author putting such \nanimals in a story should edumacate hissel.\n\n(The green man can even feed partially parasitically. Who checked the grass \nhe's lain on? There is just no end to the possibilities.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D338046.6010704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T23:33:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 1/16/2011 3:46 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAnd we know that the Green Man is a walker through the corridors\nof time, which requires energy approaching full stellar output." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If it does, that coming from the the White Fountain seems sufficient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the green man is powered by a white fountain (Severian's or another) then he is lying\nabout needing Urth's feeble sunlight to live and probably lying about needing Severian's help in\nbreaking free." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Severian's time travel is powered by the White Fountain and he still \nneeds sustenance. It seems that walking the Corridors of Time actually \nrequires walking or other freedom of movement (Tzadkerbell and the \nYesodi ships fly, Severian and the Green Man walk or run, undines swim...)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3380C8.8000004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-16T23:35:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 3:50 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\nJesus guys/gals, this is a fantasy work, not \"hard-scifi\". IMHO you\npeople are reading way to much into Wolfe when it comes to the actual\nscience portrayed in the books. But that's just me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Its nice to find an answer that works with the story and with the \"real \nworld\", or at least reduce things to the single Wellsian impossibility." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T00:40:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D3380C8.8000004@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, I'm all for it. I just think that it is a bit too much when people analyse every little bit of info from the books expecting it to be fully explainable and scientifically \ndemonstrable as if Wolfe was writing a scientific paper. It's not the exercise in itself, notice; it's the unchakable \"belief\" (for lack of a better word) from some posters (no one in particular) that if Wolfe writes it then it has to be 100% scientifically sound and interpreted literaly. Kind of reminds me of a discussion a few years ago when some people were trying to discover \"when\" on Urth was the story set (in relation to our present time) by looking at descriptions of geology, geography, stratigraphy (!!!), etc in the books. Wolfe certainly thought about some of this stuff so that the book feels coherent, but expecting descriptions to be used as fully workable data to derive such interpretations is really taking the\" Word of The Man\" a bit to far.\n \n \nAs for the Green Man, I don't remember what was in the books fully, thats why I said \"If I remember correctly\". Anyway, assuming that he lives from photosynthesis alone, he could even be \"the Black Man\" and fully use all the pigments available to him to properly extract solar energy; it still wouldn't change a thing. As for the idea that he could use other \"means\", \"efficient storage\", that we don't know \"everything about everything\" in science and so on, the problem is that if we go in that direction then we can as well write whatever we want and then just say that maybe someday we will find things we can't even imagine now, like atomic energy some decades back. In that case, even fantasy becomes science and the exercise we are indulging in turns useless.\n \n \nPedro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 17:35:36 -0600\nFrom: jwilson at io.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The green man is fake\n\nOn 1/16/2011 3:50 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jesus guys/gals, this is a fantasy work, not \"hard-scifi\". IMHO you\npeople are reading way to much into Wolfe when it comes to the actual\nscience portrayed in the books. But that's just me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Its nice to find an answer that works with the story and with the \"real \nworld\", or at least reduce things to the single Wellsian impossibility.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D339324.5020000@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T00:53:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D3376B6.6030102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2011 4:52 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nPedro Pereira wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jesus guys/gals, this is a fantasy work, not \"hard-scifi\". IMHO you\npeople are reading way to much into Wolfe when it comes to the actual\nscience portrayed in the books. But that's just me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the reasons that have been recently adduced, I think the books'\nportrayals of science are to be taken very seriously. In fact, I'd say\nthat's one of the important things there - where other authors may\nfashion talking turnips out of thin air if they need them, GW only does\nit when he's got a very good rationale for them. A talking turnip in a\nGW book isn't a deus ex machina, it's an invitation to find its backstory.\n\nThere are a number of ways a green man can be engineered, even only\nlooking at the naturally-evolved biological processes we have already\nuncovered around us. And we don't even know the specifics of this green\nman. How long is he supposed to last, for instance. Heck, there *are*\nanimals without a gut. Some aren't parasites and don't feed, they just\nuse up their energy and die. According to the Laws of 'Hard' (chuckle)\nSF, some author putting such animals in a story should edumacate hissel.\n\n(The green man can even feed partially parasitically. Who checked the\ngrass he's lain on? There is just no end to the possibilities.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev remarks on his nice, white teeth, so he is at least partially \nequipped to prey on animals and fruit." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3394C1.4060304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T01:00:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedro Pereira wrote:\nHey, I'm all for it. I just think that it is a bit too much when people\nanalyse every little bit of info from the books expecting it to be fully\n explainable and scientifically demonstrable as if Wolfe was writing a\nscientific paper. It's not the exercise in itself, notice; it's the\nunchakable \"belief\" (for lack of a better word) from some posters (no one\nin particular) that if Wolfe writes it then it has to be 100%\nscientifically sound and interpreted literaly. Kind of reminds me of a\ndiscussion a few years ago when some people were trying to discover\n\"when\" on Urth was the story set (in relation to our present time) by\nlooking at descriptions of geology, geography, stratigraphy (!!!), etc in\nthe books. Wolfe certainly thought about some of this stuff so that the\nbook feels coherent, but expecting descriptions to be used as fully\nworkable data to derive such interpretations is really taking the\" Word\nof The Man\" a bit to far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I don't mean that GW can't err or that he somehow is privy to advanced \nscience of whose toys he gives us some glimpses. What I mean is that he \nisn't the sort to include conspicuous stuff in his stories just for the sake \nof including it. All evidence I've seen so far suggests that when he does \ninclude something, it's for a reason, and it's well thought out. He can of \ncourse get some details wrong, but if there is some apparent egregious error \nthe odds are that there is a reason for it.\n\nIn the case of the green man it can even point to the fact, as the OP seems \nto have said, that he isn't completely reliable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the Green Man, I don't remember what was in the books fully, thats\nwhy I said \"If I remember correctly\". Anyway, assuming that he lives from\nphotosynthesis alone, he could even be \"the Black Man\" and fully use all\nthe pigments available to him to properly extract solar energy; it still\nwouldn't change a thing. As for the idea that he could use other \"means\",\n\"efficient storage\", that we don't know \"everything about everything\" in\nscience and so on, the problem is that if we go in that direction then we\ncan as well write whatever we want and then just say that maybe someday\nwe will find things we can't even imagine now, like atomic energy some\ndecades back. In that case, even fantasy becomes science and the exercise\nwe are indulging in turns useless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enter whatsisname's laws.\nThis last point is the important one, and a very important one at that. What \nI can say is that it's a trade-off. GW doesn't seem to just write what he \npleases with no rhyme or reason; there seems to be logic behind the edifice \nand its pursuit tends to be rewarding. Of course, at some points it all may \nlook like smoke and mirrors, but the key word, I think, is trust." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-17T01:07:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "<4D3394C1.4060304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with your stance overall. All I'm saying is to be carefull (no one in particular) with the wolfean \"fundamentalism\". Wolfe isn't beyond error neither does he know everything about everything. I'm not accusing anyone, but I've seen that \"fundamentalism\" in this list before.\n \nPedro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 01:00:49 +0000\nFrom: entonio at gmail.com\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) The green man is fake\n\nPedro Pereira wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hey, I'm all for it. I just think that it is a bit too much when people\nanalyse every little bit of info from the books expecting it to be fully\nexplainable and scientifically demonstrable as if Wolfe was writing a\nscientific paper. It's not the exercise in itself, notice; it's the\nunchakable \"belief\" (for lack of a better word) from some posters (no one\nin particular) that if Wolfe writes it then it has to be 100%\nscientifically sound and interpreted literaly. Kind of reminds me of a\ndiscussion a few years ago when some people were trying to discover\n\"when\" on Urth was the story set (in relation to our present time) by\nlooking at descriptions of geology, geography, stratigraphy (!!!), etc in\nthe books. Wolfe certainly thought about some of this stuff so that the\nbook feels coherent, but expecting descriptions to be used as fully\nworkable data to derive such interpretations is really taking the\" Word\nof The Man\" a bit to far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I don't mean that GW can't err or that he somehow is privy to advanced \nscience of whose toys he gives us some glimpses. What I mean is that he \nisn't the sort to include conspicuous stuff in his stories just for the sake \nof including it. All evidence I've seen so far suggests that when he does \ninclude something, it's for a reason, and it's well thought out. He can of \ncourse get some details wrong, but if there is some apparent egregious error \nthe odds are that there is a reason for it.\n\nIn the case of the green man it can even point to the fact, as the OP seems \nto have said, that he isn't completely reliable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for the Green Man, I don't remember what was in the books fully, thats\nwhy I said \"If I remember correctly\". Anyway, assuming that he lives from\nphotosynthesis alone, he could even be \"the Black Man\" and fully use all\nthe pigments available to him to properly extract solar energy; it still\nwouldn't change a thing. As for the idea that he could use other \"means\",\n\"efficient storage\", that we don't know \"everything about everything\" in\nscience and so on, the problem is that if we go in that direction then we\ncan as well write whatever we want and then just say that maybe someday\nwe will find things we can't even imagine now, like atomic energy some\ndecades back. In that case, even fantasy becomes science and the exercise\nwe are indulging in turns useless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Enter whatsisname's laws.\nThis last point is the important one, and a very important one at that. What \nI can say is that it's a trade-off. GW doesn't seem to just write what he \npleases with no rhyme or reason; there seems to be logic behind the edifice \nand its pursuit tends to be rewarding. Of course, at some points it all may \nlook like smoke and mirrors, but the key word, I think, is trust.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4433CB81B52240DDBE0B6B83E717C583@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-17T01:21:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn:\nThe laughter is easily explained as expressing the Green Man's\ndisappointment and despair after he had briefly hoped in Severian, and \nthen\nfound him to be an ignorant primitive babbling about a New Sun of which \nthe\ngreen Man had no knowledge (because in his time it is forgotten). And he\nnever promises to rescue Severrian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This \"easy explanation\" doesn't wash with me. There are plenty of \ndisappoined characters\nin BotNS. They don't laugh inhumanly with a sound worse than the alzabo \nwhich hasn't even been\nintroduced in the story yet (except as an analeptic). The Alzabo is \narguably depicted more hideously\nthan anything else in the story- an ugly, putrid, scavenger/predator which \neats you whole then speaks\nin your voice. Now why would Gene Wolfe want to compare the green man to \nthis creature?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dont see a need for another explanation. Severian often goes on like \nthis, for example insisting that a guy with two heads is the most cosmically \namazing thing he's ever heard of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(p.s. the green man does promise to save Severian, as noted above)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So I see. He doesn't really owe him, though.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-18T14:22:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The green man is fake", "in_reply_to": "<4433CB81B52240DDBE0B6B83E717C583@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Without teeth, language becomes impaired.\nSpeech, I meant, though if enough people have deficient speech then it will \nbecome a problem of the language itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Loss of hearing provides a much greater barrier to speech than losing\none's teeth. Yet deaf people have quickly (in evolutionary time) managed to\ndevelop a language as nuanced and rich as for those who can hear. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }