{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5925", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5925, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-01-19T14:25:22+00:00", "last": "2011-01-19T23:05:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-19T14:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perceptions vary based on history and culture. What many Americans consider a justifiable,\neven necessary action is considered one of the worst crimes ever against humanity by most of\nthe rest of the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That seems a highly unlikely assertion. Got any statistics to back it up?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI should be more careful in my word choice. \"Most\" does imply a majority and is likely to \ninstigate a call for proof from those who disagree. Given that most of the world lives\nbelow poverty level in Asia, Africa and S. America it might be more accurate to say that\nmost of the world doesn't know or care much about US foreign policy. \n \nAmong those in Europe, Asia, Africa and S. America who do know and care about U.S. foreign policy, \nit may be that a majority have a negative view but better to sidestep that and amend my statement to \n\"many in the rest of the world\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I thought he was speaking in the context of war crimes, crimes against \nhumanity, etc. down at the Hague, while most Americans think of them as things that happen in other \ncountries, if they bother to think about them at all, and the US is pointedly not a signatory to the \nagreements that would make its past deeds actionable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJeff you correctly interpret that mentioning Hiroshima was an illustration of a general principle.\nI chose Hiroshima because it is such a polarized issue. Many Americans consider it the right action\nand I think most consider it at worst a necessary evil. While most..erm...many in the rest of the \nworld do not see it as even remotely necessary. Some in the world accuse that the US deliberately\ndelayed using the atomic bomb until Germany surrendered because they didn't want to perform the \nradiation experiment that it was to be used on white people.\n\nOthers have made the valid point that while world opinion of US military action is what it is now, it \nsurely was a lot different if you had asked the same questions to people 60-70 years ago. All of this\nsupports my original assertion: Perceptions vary based on history and culture.\n \n So, who is right? Americans? Europeans? Chinese? Muslims? People now? People 60 years ago?\n \nThe same principle applies to the interpretation of Gene Wolfe books as it does to global politics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff: All were awful, but the atomic weapon makes it so much easier and convenient to be awful. The \noverkill bombardment of Berlin and the Okinawan slaughter required a huge human cost in sustaining the \nterrible resolve to kill and keep killing for as long as it took, so that few of the victors could look \nforward to repeating it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree 100%. Yet, I have to admit that the last 60 years of relative global peace (Pax Americana?) are \nmore a result of fear of atomic weapons than the far worse results of conventional bombings in WWII. People\nare funny. I think maybe they don't fear conventional weapons because they are an extension of the use of\nfire. Nuclear energy is spooky and people fear being killed by it so much more than than being burned or\nripped apart by chemical reactions. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6BE035F30F1A4383B0490FF369CEEE88@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-19T14:57:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perceptions vary based on history and culture. What many Americans \nconsider a justifiable,\neven necessary action is considered one of the worst crimes ever against \nhumanity by most of\nthe rest of the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That seems a highly unlikely assertion. Got any statistics to back it up?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should be more careful in my word choice. \"Most\" does imply a majority \nand is likely to\ninstigate a call for proof from those who disagree. Given that most of the \nworld lives\nbelow poverty level in Asia, Africa and S. America it might be more \naccurate to say that\nmost of the world doesn't know or care much about US foreign policy.\n\nAmong those in Europe, Asia, Africa and S. America who do know and care \nabout U.S. foreign policy,\nit may be that a majority have a negative view but better to sidestep that \nand amend my statement to\n\"many in the rest of the world\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"many in the rest of the world have a negative view\" is correct. It \nis a little more nuanced than \"most of the rest of the world consider it one \nof the worst crimes ever against humanity\".\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3707CF.10408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-19T15:48:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<6BE035F30F1A4383B0490FF369CEEE88@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (19-01-2011 14:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perceptions vary based on history and culture. What many Americans\nconsider a justifiable,\neven necessary action is considered one of the worst crimes ever\nagainst humanity by most of\nthe rest of the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That seems a highly unlikely assertion. Got any statistics to back it\nup?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I should be more careful in my word choice. \"Most\" does imply a\nmajority and is likely to\ninstigate a call for proof from those who disagree. Given that most of\nthe world lives\nbelow poverty level in Asia, Africa and S. America it might be more\naccurate to say that\nmost of the world doesn't know or care much about US foreign policy.\n\nAmong those in Europe, Asia, Africa and S. America who do know and\ncare about U.S. foreign policy,\nit may be that a majority have a negative view but better to sidestep\nthat and amend my statement to\n\"many in the rest of the world\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think \"many in the rest of the world have a negative view\" is correct.\nIt is a little more nuanced than \"most of the rest of the world consider\nit one of the worst crimes ever against humanity\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it can really be discussed meaningfully nowadays. Everyone and \ntheir cactus have opinions on things related to the US, without necessarily \nknowing anything about the matters.\n\nAmong the people who do have an informed perspective, not many question the \nwisdom of the bombings. All the same, they can recognise they were brutally \nhorrendous insensitive racist hateful acts. The motivations for something \nand its net value are independent.\n\nThe reason people abhor nuclear bombing in a way that they dnt conventional \nbombing, is that in conventional bombing a reasonable proportion of the \npotential victims is able to fight for their lives, even if the odds are \nlow. With nuclear bombing, the idea people have is that it just kills \neveryone in a given radius instantaneously. That sounds inhuman (yes, \ninhuman, not simply inhumane)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D376E26.3010802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-19T23:05:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "<6BE035F30F1A4383B0490FF369CEEE88@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/19/2011 8:57 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI think \"many in the rest of the world have a negative view\" is correct.\nIt is a little more nuanced than \"most of the rest of the world consider\nit one of the worst crimes ever against humanity\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would have to rank it a distant third behind the Killing Fields and \nthe Rape of Nanking.\n\nBut I think I've gotten us off track, getting so wound up in man's \ninhumanity to man. I need to say that my dad also represents the \npositive side of obedience in unthinkable things in that despite being \nraised in small-town Arkansas he still followed orders to risk his life \nguarding the black students from the white mob at the integration of \nCentral High in Little Rock as a national guardsman." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }