{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5929", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5929, "subject": "Mystery of Agia", "messages": 37, "voices": 12, "first": "2011-01-19T21:21:21+00:00", "last": "2011-01-21T07:24:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-19T21:21:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: This, at least, does not seem to be a great mystery, he killed her brother \nand lover, both by overcoming their scam and in actual fact through execution. The greater \nmystery is involved in those straps to Agilus' mask that don't go anywhere. Revenge can be \nrelentless, but there do seem to be connections between them that need examination." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Part of the mystery of Agia is that she is NOT relentless in seeking revenge. She and the \ngreen man rescue Severian from the Ascians (and Vodalus). Severian wonders why she didn't kill \nhim then, why she didn't stab him unawares at Casdoe's house..\n \nShe answers that she could have killed him easily, anytime she wanted, with Hethor's worms.\nShe says the green man wouldn't permit his killing and she wouldn't want it. She wants his\nagony spread over weeks. Then she says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Now I will let you go free--because I have some inkling of where you will go--and in the \nend you will come into my hands again..\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhat is that B.S. At the least it is a gun on the wall in Act 1 which is never fired. (actually \nI think Severian encounters both Agia and the Green Man in different guises in UotNS but that's\nanother story). Why does she let Severian go, never to find him again? Why not tie him up and\ndrag him off for his weeks of torture, or whatever. She is afraid of the green man???\n \nWhy was she trying for months to kill him in ways that wouldn't work if she (supposedly) had a \nfoolproof way (the worms)? Neither the arrows nor the notule, nor the slug nor the salamander would\nhave provided the \"weeks of agony\" she demanded. So why use all those methods? Why is she relentless\nin following Severian but not killing him? \n \nWell, I've suggested an answer to this mystery of Agia in some other posts. I think they address\nissues like Agilus' mask stripes/straps and Ryan Dunn's metallic head as well. Requires a leap of \nfaith though :- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D37C0B5.2060000@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T04:57:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/19/2011 3:21 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nWhat is that B.S. At the least it is a gun on the wall in Act 1 which is never fired. (actually\nI think Severian encounters both Agia and the Green Man in different guises in UotNS but that's\nanother story). Why does she let Severian go, never to find him again?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia is impulsive but not stupid; she knows exactly where to find him, \nbut the odds of an enjoyable revenge against the Autarch are slim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why not tie him up and\ndrag him off for his weeks of torture, or whatever. She is afraid of the green man???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She doesn't have a way to facilitate such a fate for him while the \nVodalarii are on the move, and no means to strike out on her own in the \ncontested territory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why was she trying for months to kill him in ways that wouldn't work if she (supposedly) had a\nfoolproof way (the worms)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not knowing any more than we do about how specula work, we can't presume \nall the monsters were available at all times. We have the old Autarch's \nword that the longer the specula are left closed, the more powerful \ntheir summoning ability becomes, so Hethor may need to take longer times \nbetween to get larger monsters or ones from farther away in space and time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither the arrows nor the notule, nor the slug nor the salamander would\nhave provided the \"weeks of agony\" she demanded. So why use all those methods?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The weeks of torture idea was probably planted by Vodalus to manipulate \nher into serving him longer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why is she relentless\nin following Severian but not killing him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It took her a while to sort out her true feelings. She's a pretty \nmercurial person, and she may have found ruling over Hethor and later \nover the Vodalarii to be more to her immediate satisfaction than \ncontinuing to prepare a place to keep Sev racked up for weeks." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<75E826F8-B3B2-425C-A185-0DF7F3E581BD@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-20T05:29:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<4D37C0B5.2060000@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 19, 2011, at 8:57 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 1/19/2011 3:21 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is that B.S. At the least it is a gun on the wall in Act 1 which is never fired. (actually\nI think Severian encounters both Agia and the Green Man in different guises in UotNS but that's\nanother story). Why does she let Severian go, never to find him again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agia is impulsive but not stupid; she knows exactly where to find him, but the odds of an enjoyable revenge against the Autarch are slim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why not tie him up and\ndrag him off for his weeks of torture, or whatever. She is afraid of the green man???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She doesn't have a way to facilitate such a fate for him while the Vodalarii are on the move, and no means to strike out on her own in the contested territory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why was she trying for months to kill him in ways that wouldn't work if she (supposedly) had a\nfoolproof way (the worms)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not knowing any more than we do about how specula work, we can't presume all the monsters were available at all times. We have the old Autarch's word that the longer the specula are left closed, the more powerful their summoning ability becomes, so Hethor may need to take longer times between to get larger monsters or ones from farther away in space and time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Neither the arrows nor the notule, nor the slug nor the salamander would\nhave provided the \"weeks of agony\" she demanded. So why use all those methods?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The weeks of torture idea was probably planted by Vodalus to manipulate her into serving him longer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is she relentless\nin following Severian but not killing him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It took her a while to sort out her true feelings. She's a pretty mercurial person, and she may have found ruling over Hethor and later over the Vodalarii to be more to her immediate satisfaction than continuing to prepare a place to keep Sev racked up for weeks.\n\n-- " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff's layout here is compelling.\nBut there is something that makes me think Hethor is using Agia more tham she is using him. He seems to genuinely consider Severian \"Master\". No?\nHas anyone picked up on anything that sheds light on his motivations, beyond the stated one of Agia's sexual submission?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D37CC57.1050903@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T05:47:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<75E826F8-B3B2-425C-A185-0DF7F3E581BD@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/19/2011 11:29 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nBut there is something that makes me think Hethor is using Agia more tham she is using him. He seems to genuinely consider Severian \"Master\". No?\nHas anyone picked up on anything that sheds light on his motivations, beyond the stated one of Agia's sexual submission?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hethor may be originally from the reign of Severian the Lame, so Sev \n*is* his ultimate master.\n\nHethor may be a mad Ship-double of sailor Eata, who ran away before his \nelevation to journeyman but after Sev's elevation to master, so Sev is \nhis more immediate master." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T06:10:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<4D37CC57.1050903@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son O' Witz: Jeff's layout here is compelling.\nBut there is something that makes me think Hethor is using Agia more tham she is using him. \nHe seems to genuinely consider Severian \"Master\". No?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has anyone picked up on anything that sheds light on his motivations, beyond the stated one of \nAgia's sexual submission?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI like a lot of Jeff's ideas, often very deep and insightful. But not this one. My feeling of his \nsummation of Agia is: well, she's just some girl. Kind of emotional, has some unreliable \nboyfriend mirrors, not too important. She can wander off from the story and it really doesn't matter. \nShe's about like that one girlfriend from 10th grade..uh..whats-her-name again....\n \nIn general I don't agree when people try to explain Wolfe characters, especially important ones,\nas though they were like normal people in our lives with inexplicable behavior that has no relevance\nto us. Unlike people in our lives, these charcters are created, with every word and gesture crafted with\na purpose, for the reader, by a very careful author. I can't see why Wolfe would bother to create an \nimportant character who doesn't mean much.\n \n \nYep, Witz, I completely agree that Hethor is the one controlling the relationship with Agia. Yes, I \nthink Hethor does, in a sense, consider Severian his master, his teacher. He is part of the \"team\"\n(as it were) that is observing Severian and trying to either stop the New Sun....OR perhaps more likely...\n..bring the New Sun by opposing Severian at every turn, knowing he is \"a weed which grows best when \nstepped upon\".\n \nI have a clear mental picture of what is going on but it isn't so easy to put in words in this format, \nthough I have tried in the past. They know Severian can't be killed, I'm pretty sure of that. All the\nattempts on his life are like nudges with a cattle prod and/or attempts to learn Severian's secret, the\nONE secret they don't have.\n \nFor me it is like this: let's pretend this is not Urth but Earth during the Roman Empire. The pagan gods\nthey believe in are real, especially Faunus (and Fauna). In the middle east the fallen angels/demons they\nbelieve in are real. The sea monsters of the Greeks and others are real. They are kind of running \neverything in the Roman Empire and the rest of the world. Doing some good, doing some evil. You know how \nit is. The angels have kinda been keeping their distance so they pretty much have free rein.\n \nThen they become aware of the birth of this Jesus kid. They have prescient knowledge of the kid's potential.\nWhat would they do? I think they might set up surveillance, use spies, agents and flunkies. Do some prodding \nand poking tests, maybe even set up a few murder attempts, knowing they will fail. All to try to find out what \nmakes this guy tick, especially his greatest unique power, which is to resurrect life.\n \nI think pretty much everything that happens in BotNS can be seen in this light. Especially with Severian as\na Jesus figure who was orphaned, raised by torturers and only has a slight presentiment of his future. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D37D842.4070005@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T06:37:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/20/2011 12:10 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son O' Witz: Jeff's layout here is compelling.\nBut there is something that makes me think Hethor is using Agia more tham she is using him.\nHe seems to genuinely consider Severian \"Master\". No?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Has anyone picked up on anything that sheds light on his motivations, beyond the stated one of\nAgia's sexual submission?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like a lot of Jeff's ideas, often very deep and insightful. But not this one. My feeling of his\nsummation of Agia is: well, she's just some girl. Kind of emotional, has some unreliable\nboyfriend mirrors, not too important. She can wander off from the story and it really doesn't matter.\nShe's about like that one girlfriend from 10th grade..uh..whats-her-name again...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You promised you would never mention her again! *sob*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In general I don't agree when people try to explain Wolfe characters, especially important ones,\nas though they were like normal people in our lives with inexplicable behavior that has no relevance\nto us. Unlike people in our lives, these charcters are created, with every word and gesture crafted with\na purpose, for the reader, by a very careful author. I can't see why Wolfe would bother to create an\nimportant character who doesn't mean much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't mean to give the impression she was an unimportant character, \nmore that she *has* a dissolute character, and it's in keeping with that \nfor her to wander off either from lack of interest in pursing \nincreasingly deferred gratification, or from gaining some maturity and \nrealizing no punishment she can visit on Severian will restore her \nbrother or lessen his loss.\n\nAnd if she really is part of Hethor's sekrit mishun to provoke Severian \ninto revealing his true nature, once it is revealed he has become the \nnew Autarch that's also run its useful course and again it would be an \nobvious time for them to cease tracking him." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3829E1.4030401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T12:26:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<4D37C0B5.2060000@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (20-01-2011 04:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/19/2011 3:21 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is that B.S. At the least it is a gun on the wall in Act 1 which\nis never fired. (actually I think Severian encounters both Agia and the\nGreen Man in different guises in UotNS but that's another story). Why\ndoes she let Severian go, never to find him again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agia is impulsive but not stupid; she knows exactly where to find him,\nbut the odds of an enjoyable revenge against the Autarch are slim." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure, but it seems to me that part of her impulsiveness is staged." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why not tie him up and drag him off for his weeks of torture, or\nwhatever. She is afraid of the green man???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She doesn't have a way to facilitate such a fate for him while the\nVodalarii are on the move, and no means to strike out on her own in the\ncontested territory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why was she trying for months to kill him in ways that wouldn't work\nif she (supposedly) had a foolproof way (the worms)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not knowing any more than we do about how specula work, we can't presume\nall the monsters were available at all times. We have the old Autarch's\nword that the longer the specula are left closed, the more powerful their\nsummoning ability becomes, so Hethor may need to take longer times\nbetween to get larger monsters or ones from farther away in space and\ntime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Neither the arrows nor the notule, nor the slug nor the salamander\nwould have provided the \"weeks of agony\" she demanded. So why use all\nthose methods?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The weeks of torture idea was probably planted by Vodalus to manipulate\nher into serving him longer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is she relentless in following Severian but not killing him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It took her a while to sort out her true feelings. She's a pretty\nmercurial person, and she may have found ruling over Hethor and later\nover the Vodalarii to be more to her immediate satisfaction than\ncontinuing to prepare a place to keep Sev racked up for weeks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All are reasonable points, but none answers why Agia even appears in the\nstory in the first place, or isn't simply killed off early." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T16:04:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<4D3829E1.4030401@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: And if she really is part of Hethor's sekrit mishun to provoke Severian \ninto revealing his true nature, once it is revealed he has become the \nnew Autarch that's also run its useful course and again it would be an \nobvious time for them to cease tracking him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI would say no. Because even at the end of CotA, we know Severian's true fulfillment is not\nas autarch but as something higher. As we see in UotNS that fulfillment is found on the Ship\nand in Yesod. I don't think Agia is able to follow Severian on the space travel path but \nHethor is and I think Hethor does (in one guise or another). But I'll focus on Agia for now.\n \nAgia's role remains on Urth as leader of the anti-Autarch group. And I think she fulfills\nthis role toward the end of UotNS. Son O' Witz asked about my assertion that Severian DOES\nactually meet Agia again, in UotNS (as I think Wolfe storytelling requires he must, given \nher promise). \n \nI now realize one of my previoius posts disappeared into the internet answering Witz, so I'll \ntry to rewrite my ideas on that here:\n \nI think Agia appears in UotNS but it requires that we again recognize Severian as an unreliable\nnarrator who repeatedly misidentifies people on various mistakes; one that is repeated a couple\ntime is mistaken gender. This becomes plausible especially with older characters. \n \nIIRC, of the many characters and the many weapons mentioned in BotNS, only two use a poisoned\nblade, Agia and the assassin. Because I find mystery solution clues in all Agia's weapons \n(misericorde, athame, crooked dagger and lucivee) it is not a stretch for me to think that this \nweapon similarity suggests a shared identity.\n \nAfter Severian resurrects the assassin in the catacombs, he(she) seems confused and Severian\njust walks on to the throne room. The assassin apparently gains enough sense of purpose to \nfollow Severian, find the throne room and stab Valeria through the heart, nicking Severian in\nthe chest in the process. I find all of this reinforces the idea that the assassin is Agia.\nThe assassin follows Severian as Agia always did. The assassin kills the Autarch as was Agia's\nassigned role. Agia was always the jealous type in regard to Dorcas and Thecla, so killing \nValeria would make sense.\n \nPerhaps most important is the fact that the poisoned blade piercing Severian's chest explicitly\nmirrors his avern wound. The wound he had long ago received from the actions of Agia and Agilus.\n \nSome might ask, \"Well, couldn't the assassin just be male and following orders from some unknown \nboss\"? The answer is, yes. For me the problem with that becomes auctorial purpose. Valeria was\nabout to die of drowning within minutes anyway. Why did Wolfe find the assassin necessary? Why \nwould he introduce a mystery character, with hidden purpose, who doesn't speak, carrying a poisoned \nblade, to follow Severian, to unecessarily kill Valeria, and to re-open the avern wound. Why throw\n7-8 loose ends at us at the very end of this five book story?\n \nIn the closed labyrinth which is BotNS, I think it makes better sense if all those loose ends \nare tied up with one age/gender misidentification by Severian. Agia.\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T17:22:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 11:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIn the closed labyrinth which is BotNS, I think it makes better sense if all those loose ends \nare tied up with one age/gender misidentification by Severian. Agia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We still need to figure out who is Hethor's missing poppet. I feel she is brought too vividly to our attention to completely ignore it as a clue (or maybe I'm being obsessive).\n\nAgia is clearly Asian looking, and weren't there some Korean named spaceboats? We already know that if you push her to the ground, her head makes a metallic sound.\n\n:)\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D387052.1030302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T17:26:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<4D3829E1.4030401@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/20/2011 6:26 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote (20-01-2011 04:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/19/2011 3:21 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What is that B.S. At the least it is a gun on the wall in Act 1 which\nis never fired. (actually I think Severian encounters both Agia and the\nGreen Man in different guises in UotNS but that's another story). Why\ndoes she let Severian go, never to find him again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agia is impulsive but not stupid; she knows exactly where to find him,\nbut the odds of an enjoyable revenge against the Autarch are slim." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure, but it seems to me that part of her impulsiveness is staged." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Impulsiveness may not be the word. She might be overconfident, or simply \nnot have much too lose, but for some reason she is prone to taking risks \nwith little or no preparation. The fiacre race, the theft of the Claw, \nleaving the cabin while the alzabo was around? Not stuff I would be so \neager to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All are reasonable points, but none answers why Agia even appears in the\nstory in the first place, or isn't simply killed off early." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She hangs around for four books so the author can show how Sev deals \nwith the consequences of his actions that he *can't* leave behind him." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<09627529-D93F-460C-B97E-2524407AE719@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-20T17:33:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: And if she really is part of Hethor's sekrit mishun to provoke Severian \ninto revealing his true nature, once it is revealed he has become the \nnew Autarch that's also run its useful course and again it would be an \nobvious time for them to cease tracking him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 8:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI would say no. Because even at the end of CotA, we know Severian's true fulfillment is not\nas autarch but as something higher. As we see in UotNS that fulfillment is found on the Ship\nand in Yesod. I don't think Agia is able to follow Severian on the space travel path but \nHethor is and I think Hethor does (in one guise or another). But I'll focus on Agia for now.\n\nAgia's role remains on Urth as leader of the anti-Autarch group. And I think she fulfills\nthis role toward the end of UotNS. Son O' Witz asked about my assertion that Severian DOES\nactually meet Agia again, in UotNS (as I think Wolfe storytelling requires he must, given \nher promise). \n\nI now realize one of my previoius posts disappeared into the internet answering Witz, so I'll \ntry to rewrite my ideas on that here:\n\nI think Agia appears in UotNS but it requires that we again recognize Severian as an unreliable\nnarrator who repeatedly misidentifies people on various mistakes; one that is repeated a couple\ntime is mistaken gender. This becomes plausible especially with older characters. \n\nIIRC, of the many characters and the many weapons mentioned in BotNS, only two use a poisoned\nblade, Agia and the assassin. Because I find mystery solution clues in all Agia's weapons \n(misericorde, athame, crooked dagger and lucivee) it is not a stretch for me to think that this \nweapon similarity suggests a shared identity.\n\nAfter Severian resurrects the assassin in the catacombs, he(she) seems confused and Severian\njust walks on to the throne room. The assassin apparently gains enough sense of purpose to \nfollow Severian, find the throne room and stab Valeria through the heart, nicking Severian in\nthe chest in the process. I find all of this reinforces the idea that the assassin is Agia.\nThe assassin follows Severian as Agia always did. The assassin kills the Autarch as was Agia's\nassigned role. Agia was always the jealous type in regard to Dorcas and Thecla, so killing \nValeria would make sense.\n\nPerhaps most important is the fact that the poisoned blade piercing Severian's chest explicitly\nmirrors his avern wound. The wound he had long ago received from the actions of Agia and Agilus.\n\nSome might ask, \"Well, couldn't the assassin just be male and following orders from some unknown \nboss\"? The answer is, yes. For me the problem with that becomes auctorial purpose. Valeria was\nabout to die of drowning within minutes anyway. Why did Wolfe find the assassin necessary? Why \nwould he introduce a mystery character, with hidden purpose, who doesn't speak, carrying a poisoned \nblade, to follow Severian, to unecessarily kill Valeria, and to re-open the avern wound. Why throw\n7-8 loose ends at us at the very end of this five book story?\n\nIn the closed labyrinth which is BotNS, I think it makes better sense if all those loose ends \nare tied up with one age/gender misidentification by Severian. Agia.\n\n\n \n__________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a very compelling idea if it holds water. It would tie that up quite nicely.\n\nPersonally, I don't mis-trust Severian enough to credit him with recognizing her but hiding that.\nFrankly, I have yet to see compelling evidence that he lies to any real significance anywhere. He surely leaves things unsaid, as he is writing with hindsight. Sev calls the assasin He or Him about 20 times in that passage. I think it's clear that he's not mistaking him. He was very attracted to Agia, so of course he would recognize her. He also didn't call him an old man, but Valeria is clearly a crone, yet he recognizes his old lover. So that leaves, IMO, deliberate lying on Severian's part. I'm happy to discuss my take that Sev is mostly earnest and honest, but we should branch that to a new thread.\n\nThat the Avern wound is repeated at the end by the assasin is not a loose end to me. Severian's life is so mirrored and turned on itself in time. There is something about these wounds that are just part of him, so they reassert themselves by various hands. Agia's claw attack wound is recreated by another's hand, also a random nobody. I think the point is at these are scars on Severian's spirit on Urth, or such, that keep coming up again in temporality, just like he does.\n\nSorry if I credited your idea to Aramini.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3876C2.5010305@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T17:54:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/20/2011 10:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: And if she really is part of Hethor's sekrit mishun to provoke Severian\ninto revealing his true nature, once it is revealed he has become the\nnew Autarch that's also run its useful course and again it would be an\nobvious time for them to cease tracking him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would say no. Because even at the end of CotA, we know Severian's true fulfillment is not\nas autarch but as something higher." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but the team sufficient for tracking a wandering torturer won't \nwork on the Autarch. Sev suddenly had tens of thousands of allies to \nkeep an eye out for Hethor and Agia, and some of them are really good at \nfighting back, like the Pratorians. Agia might go ahead and hunt him \nunder those odds, but I doubt Hethor would be eager. He might \nsuperficially go along with such mad industry for the sex, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Agia appears in UotNS but it requires that we again recognize Severian as an unreliable\nnarrator who repeatedly misidentifies people on various mistakes; one that is repeated a couple\ntime is mistaken gender. This becomes plausible especially with older characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recall you think he mistakes the elder in Casdoe's cabin for a man, \nwho else?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After Severian resurrects the assassin in the catacombs, he(she) seems confused and Severian\njust walks on to the throne room. The assassin apparently gains enough sense of purpose to\nfollow Severian, find the throne room and stab Valeria through the heart, nicking Severian in\nthe chest in the process. I find all of this reinforces the idea that the assassin is Agia.\nThe assassin follows Severian as Agia always did. The assassin kills the Autarch as was Agia's\nassigned role. Agia was always the jealous type in regard to Dorcas and Thecla, so killing\nValeria would make sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Forty years (less time dead) after he was MIA? Why bother?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D387813.1040400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T17:59:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<09627529-D93F-460C-B97E-2524407AE719@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz wrote (20-01-2011 17:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev calls the assasin He or Him about 20 times in that passage. I think\nit's clear that he's not mistaking him. He was very attracted to Agia, so\nof course he would recognize her. He also didn't call him an old man, but\nValeria is clearly a crone, yet he recognizes his old lover." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the assassin can, and indeed should, be disguised, and asian people tend \nto lesser sexual dimorphism. I think Lee's idea here is genuinely good. Of \ncourse, that doesn't close the matter of Agia's purpose(s), nor does it \npreclude your spirit scars interpretation at all.\n\nI also think Jeff and Ryan raise good points. The more matters such as these \nare discussed, the better our understanding of the work." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T18:08:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<4D387813.1040400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: We still need to figure out who is Hethor's missing poppet. I feel she is brought too \nvividly to our attention to completely ignore it as a clue (or maybe I'm being obsessive).\nAgia is clearly Asian looking, and weren't there some Korean named spaceboats? We already know that \nif you push her to the ground, her head makes a metallic sound. :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree that Hethor babbles on too much about his poppet for it to be meaningless. And nobody else\nhas come up with anything approaching a plausible theory about the subject. You are right to be \nobsessive about this because it is the only way progress can be accomplished. Wolfe wants to appeal\nto the subconcious in his mysteries and if something keeps bothering you I think it likely isn't\nan accident or mistake. So here are my contributions:\n \nAgia is a great starting point in the search for the poppet. Who else does Hethor show erotic interest\nin? (aside from Severian, but we won't go there just now).\n \nI think one stumbling block of resistance to the idea was the subject heading about Agia being a robot.\nShe seems both very feminine and flawed which would seem to argue against her being a factory product.\n \nBut what if the metallic sound we heard was meant more as metaphor than a real metallic sound. Consider\nDr. Talos. He is named for the mythical man of bronze but we can be pretty sure he also is not made of\nmetal. The \"Talos\" name is probably a reference meant by Wolfe to mean he is a construct. \n \nPerhaps the same is true of Agia. Now, Jolenta is revealed to have metal bands as part of her beautification\nso perhaps Agia's head could have something similar. But I lean against this direction. Wolfe goes out\nof his way to emphasize Agia's imperfections. I don't think she was beautified.\n \nBut her resemblance to Agilus hints at cloning. Perhaps she is a contruct in that regard. Hethor's poppet \nravings seem to suggest she could be put away in a capsule while not in use. And I think there is even a \nsuggestion that the capsule was launched into space- perhaps arriving on Urth. \n \n*I think you might have something with your observation of Agia's somewhat Asian features and the Korean \nconnection to the residents of the antechamber (who landed on Urth in some sort of ship from elsewhere).*\n \nIf Agia was really the poppet, I would expect some clues that she has a bit of familiarity with space\ntravel. I don't think there are any. But if Agia was cloned from the poppet (whoever she might be) it might\ncomplete the story with the proper connections. So, maybe there is some myth or legend or story which could\nprovide a poppet character from which Agia could be derived?\n \nPersonally, I think further answers to this question can be found in the multiple connections between Hethor \nand Father Inire. (Inire who elevated Agia to be the new Vodalus). But I'll leave it at that for now and hope\nmaybe some of these ideas are helpful. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53CB2171EFFC4B0A8928F6A8E6A4F80A@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-20T19:07:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nWe still need to figure out who is Hethor's missing poppet. I feel she is \nbrought too vividly to our attention to completely ignore it as a clue (or \nmaybe I'm being obsessive).\n\nAgia is clearly Asian looking, and weren't there some Korean named \nspaceboats? We already know that if you push her to the ground, her head \nmakes a metallic sound.\n:)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Easy ;-)\n\nTalos has somehow acquired bits and pieces of pieces of her and placed them \nin the waitress from Nessus, converting her into a hybrid creature of \nsupernatural sexual attractiveness. All are attracted to Jolenta, but only \nJonas falls in love with her, because she is a human-machine hybrid like \nhimself.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0078A1A3-31B5-4F0D-8232-EE3DB245C8D9@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T19:10:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " If she were actually the poppet she could be.. 1. Robotic; and 2. Sheltered from any space travel knowledge due to the way she was kept in a box when not used to pleasure Hethor.\n\nI admit, I myself am not 100% convinced about Agia as poppet, based on done of her more human traits and the way she sees herself as the one controlling Hethor.\n\nBut on the other hand, what if she and Agilus have some sort of glamour spell to make them less recognizable (remember Agiluss bands, Jolentas bands).\n\nAnd isn't the idea of a sex slave mastering her master appropriate in a way? Her fixation on vengeance has some programmatic qualities also (read robotic).\n\nJust trying to demystify this enigmatic character since she may be the second most frequent female in the series, and little is known about her.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIf Agia was really the poppet, I would expect some clues that she has a bit of familiarity with space\ntravel." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T19:38:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<0078A1A3-31B5-4F0D-8232-EE3DB245C8D9@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: But the assassin can, and indeed should, be disguised, and asian \npeople tend to lesser sexual dimorphism. I think Lee's idea here is genuinely good. Of \ncourse, that doesn't close the matter of Agia's purpose(s), nor does it preclude your s\npirit scars interpretation at all. I also think Jeff and Ryan raise good points. The more \nmatters such as these are discussed, the better our understanding of the work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgreed on all accounts (except I think Son O' Witz also contributed good points).\n \nThe only defense I'll raise for my Agia=assassin theory goes back to Fifth Head of Cerberus.\nAs Jerry Friedman can testify, there is good evidence to be found that VRT did not replace\nDr. Marsh. \n \nSo why is there no longer any debate on the topic? Because Gene Wolfe resolved his intention\nin a couple interviews. His only major mystery revelation I am aware of. Is it a coincidence\nhe revealed this about his earliest mysterious/cryptic work? I don't think so.\n \nI think Gene Wolfe uses interviews much as he uses his stories. He has said of his mysteries \nthat he provides one clue for solution and that's all he thinks is needed. So, what does the\nbroad single clue of revealing his intention for 5HoC reveal about his general intentions for\nhis mysteries?\n \nAs Marc Aramini says, \"Wolfe is hiding a lot, and some of it is just plain weird.\" \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<60EFCAF2-1469-40DF-8DC6-3DD85551E3E4@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T19:41:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nAs Marc Aramini says, \"Wolfe is hiding a lot, and some of it is just plain weird.\" \t\t \t \t\t " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The poppet is a sex-changed Severian from another iteration.\n\nBecause that just makes me go \"ewwwww.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<719400.59813.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T19:57:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<0F723596-DE30-4482-8039-ECC6AFF8DD8C@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Thu, 1/20/11, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed.\nSure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit.\nSeverian describes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her\nnose as upturned. I think this is more or less safe to\nsay she is asian or Ascian. The tilt would seem strange to\nhim because they seem novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was under the impression Ascian's would be more like the descendents of North America, but I hate bringing up interview points against the text. Gene said something about how people were equating Ascian's with asians and denied it, but you have to take that kind of stuff with a grain of salt, you know how PR is. Heh heh. Are Ascians ever described that way? (not that I think it affects your ultimate point here at all)\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<98F262F1-20E6-4617-B354-4D3EFA4120F2@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T19:58:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<0F723596-DE30-4482-8039-ECC6AFF8DD8C@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nIf they are Ascien spies then the ploughman mystery of the bands is half answered." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would an Ascian spy wear a mask that makes them look tilt-eyed?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0F723596-DE30-4482-8039-ECC6AFF8DD8C@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-20T19:59:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<4D387813.1040400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote (20-01-2011 17:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sev calls the assasin He or Him about 20 times in that passage. I think\nit's clear that he's not mistaking him. He was very attracted to Agia, so\nof course he would recognize her. He also didn't call him an old man, but\nValeria is clearly a crone, yet he recognizes his old lover." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the assassin can, and indeed should, be disguised, and asian people tend to lesser sexual dimorphism. I think Lee's idea here is genuinely good. Of course, that doesn't close the matter of Agia's purpose(s), nor does it preclude your spirit scars interpretation at all.\n\nI also think Jeff and Ryan raise good points. The more matters such as these are discussed, the better our understanding of the work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed.\nSure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit. Severian describes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her nose as upturned. I think this is more or less safe to say she is asian or Ascian. The tilt would seem strange to him because they seem novel.\nI do think it is a great idea, one that doesn't trample over many other readings. I won't say that it is necessaryily true, but this reading doesn't seem to contradict, merely to add, so I think it is safe either way. The connection via poison blades is a lot to reat it on though, if one is to claim \"certainty,\" (which I don't think anyone is yet.)\n\nI don't think Agia could be the missing poppet because he HAS Agia at the point he babbles that. (not that she is with him in the scene)\n\nI've felt all along that she was in deep cover. I guess the Ascian Eyes suggest she is an Ascien spy. But I think she is onto him early for more than the stated reasons. Agilus's bands remaining after the mask is removed is a clear indicator that he is still playing false, still wearing another 'mask'. If they are Ascien spies then the ploughman mystery of the bands is half answered. It is more plausible than the view that they are associated with the circle of sorcerers, as I think Borski guessed." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D389609.3090603@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T20:07:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<0F723596-DE30-4482-8039-ECC6AFF8DD8C@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/20/2011 1:59 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Jan 20, 2011, at 9:59 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz wrote (20-01-2011 17:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sev calls the assasin He or Him about 20 times in that passage. I think\nit's clear that he's not mistaking him. He was very attracted to Agia, so\nof course he would recognize her. He also didn't call him an old man, but\nValeria is clearly a crone, yet he recognizes his old lover." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the assassin can, and indeed should, be disguised, and asian people tend to lesser sexual dimorphism. I think Lee's idea here is genuinely good. Of course, that doesn't close the matter of Agia's purpose(s), nor does it preclude your spirit scars interpretation at all.\n\nI also think Jeff and Ryan raise good points. The more matters such as these are discussed, the better our understanding of the work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed.\nSure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit. Severian describes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her nose as upturned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "upturned doesn't sound asian, more scandian" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1728B5D8-5418-41C0-996A-061131230BB6@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T20:18:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<4D389609.3090603@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAgreed.\nSure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit. Severian describes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her nose as upturned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "upturned doesn't sound asian, more scandian" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ". .\n\nAGIA DESCRIPTIONS:\n\n\"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her.\"\n\n\"Of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the elongated brown eyes that often accompany them.\"\n\n\"Her voice was much deeper than I had expected.\"\n\n\"... wide, flat cheeks and softly rounded chin, freckled, sun-browned skin and long, laughing, mocking eyes.\"\n\n. .\n\nSeems like she is definitely Asian looking, laughing, mocking eyes, elongated, strangely tilted, with wide, flat cheekbones and delicate features.\n\nAlso, what's up with the deep voice, and similar physique to her brother? Is this a man in drag or something?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T20:21:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<1728B5D8-5418-41C0-996A-061131230BB6@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton: The poppet is a sex-changed Severian from another iteration.\nBecause that just makes me go \"ewwwww.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nLiar.\n \n;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7C858777-809C-4DD9-8146-8544E10C18D2@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-20T20:29:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<98F262F1-20E6-4617-B354-4D3EFA4120F2@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 11:58 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Jan 20, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If they are Ascien spies then the ploughman mystery of the bands is half answered." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would an Ascian spy wear a mask that makes them look tilt-eyed?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Strike that. It doesn't answer Ploughman.\nI don't think Agia has a literal second mask at all. I can't give plot to them, only interpretation as to the symbolic intent." } ] }, { "message_id": "<758650.8590.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T20:46:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<0F723596-DE30-4482-8039-ECC6AFF8DD8C@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as Agia goes, Sev sees her naked with her brother, even though she is like the only woman in the book Sev does not actually have intercourse with, right? Yeah, don't the Pelerines strip and search her? She's a woman.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<7F5EDD67-A366-4A53-9D56-C175706ADB6A@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-20T20:51:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<1728B5D8-5418-41C0-996A-061131230BB6@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 12:18 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Jan 20, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agreed.\nSure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit. Severian describes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her nose as upturned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "upturned doesn't sound asian, more scandian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ". .\n\nAGIA DESCRIPTIONS:\n\n\"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like her brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and delicate features that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her.\"\n\n\"Of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the elongated brown eyes that often accompany them.\"\n\n\"Her voice was much deeper than I had expected.\"\n\n\"... wide, flat cheeks and softly rounded chin, freckled, sun-browned skin and long, laughing, mocking eyes.\"\n\n. .\n\nSeems like she is definitely Asian looking, laughing, mocking eyes, elongated, strangely tilted, with wide, flat cheekbones and delicate features.\n\nAlso, what's up with the deep voice, and similar physique to her brother? Is this a man in drag or something?\n\n...ryan\n______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If so, maybe she is the assasin of Valeria.\nBut I think he describes also her body in feminine terms. I think when they are on the fiacre.\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T20:54:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<7F5EDD67-A366-4A53-9D56-C175706ADB6A@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: I was under the impression Ascian's would be more like the descendents of North America" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThey would be. And I think (based on the descriptions) we can be secure in thinking this doesn't mean\nNative Americans. Moreover Agia is repulsed by the appearance of Ascians and says she will no longer\nwork for them.\n \nIf there is an analog to Asia in BotNS it would be the Xanthic Lands (xanthic meaning yellow). Eata has\nbeen there but I don't remember him saying much about it....\n \n..ah! I think Maxellindis also has laughing, maybe mocking eyes. Perhaps she is of interest to those \nlooking for girls with a connection to Agia. There is Maxellindis' \"uncle\" (even Severian dosen't \nbelieve that) to consider. His knowledge of spooky boats and undines and such create a connection to \ncertain other mysterious old guys who have untoward interest in young women (I mean both Inire and Hethor\nhere, maybe a couple others)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan: Also, what's up with the deep voice, and similar physique to her brother? Is this a man in drag \nor something?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All those associated with Dionysus/Great God Pan are likely to be androgynous. This includes Agia and\nAgilus (and the green man).\n \n \n(FWIW I always associated Agia with Jennifer Grey, circa Ferris Bueller's Day Off. If you add a slightly\ndarker complexion and a mocking smirk to this pic...\nhttp://cdn.babble.com/famecrawler/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Jennifer-Grey-403x340-23kb-media-796-media-79449-1030078805.jpg) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T21:04:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz wrote: ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit. Severian describes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her nose as upturned. ?I think this is more or less safe to say she is asian or Ascian. The tilt would seem strange to him because they seem novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She may be Asian, but not Ascian. Wolfe has been quite insistent that\nAscians are not Asian - they are North American. Asians are\nXanthoderms or from the Xanthic lands." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1D636C62-2D4D-47E8-90B4-327840AFB2B9@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T21:33:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<758650.8590.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 3:46 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAs far as Agia goes, Sev sees her naked with her brother, even though she is like the only woman in the book Sev does not actually have intercourse with, right? Yeah, don't the Pelerines strip and search her? She's a woman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, she has breasts, and hips, this is true. She also has an abnormally deep, unmistakable timbre in her voice.\n\nShe also has chestnut hair which likes to fleck to gold under the seemingly omnipresent sunlight that hits her features. Damn you, aureoles.\n\nSome other stuff that bugs me about the twins...\n\n. .\n\nIN AGILUS'S CELL:\n\n\"I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. Her head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her abundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer. All the strength seemed to leave her knees; she slid down until she was sitting on the straw. I would never have guessed that Agia was capable of weeping, but she wept.\n\n(I've expressed my issue with the specificity of this passage before, how Severian goes to the trouble to set up her volume of hair against the sound of her skull hitting the wall, and how she goes slack, quiet, then weeps... does not black out.)\n\n\"Agilus asked, 'What did she do?' There was no emotion beyond curiosity in the question.\"\n\n(An awkward reaction, and makes me think he is disconnected from genuine human emotion the same way Talos was.)\n\n[...]\n\n\"Agia rose, brushing the straw from her knees and rounded thighs. As though she realized only now that she was naked, she picked up the blue- green brocade gown I remembered so well and clasped it to her.\"\n\n(What is up with these two being so aloof? More than once we catch them remembering to act human after the fact.)\n\n. .\n\nAT AGILUS'S EXECUTION:\n\n\"From far away came a scream, Agia's voice as unmistakable as a face seen by lightning. Something in its timbre made me feel she had not been watching at all, but had known nevertheless when her twin died.\"\n\n(That voice again, its timbre, its unmistakability.)\n\n. .\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-01-20T23:04:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<1D636C62-2D4D-47E8-90B4-327840AFB2B9@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 20 Jan 2011, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nSome other stuff that bugs me about the twins...\n. .\n\nIN AGILUS'S CELL:\n\n\"I pushed her away - not into a chair this time but against the wall. \nHer head struck the stone, and though it must have been padded by her \nabundant hair, the sound was as sharp as the tap of a mason's hammer. \nAll the strength seemed to leave her knees; she slid down until she was \nsitting on the straw. I would never have guessed that Agia was capable \nof weeping, but she wept.\n\n(I've expressed my issue with the specificity of this passage before, \nhow Severian goes to the trouble to set up her volume of hair against \nthe sound of her skull hitting the wall, and how she goes slack, quiet, \nthen weeps... does not black out.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he mentions this because she hit the wall very hard. \nMost people have heard a definite bone-on-stone thump -- I don't think \nthe noise of the mason's hammer is metallic. Even though she does not \nlose consciousness, she is stunned. Agilus is just depressed.\n\nBut yes, they're not ordinary twins, and we've already met Dr Veil.\n\nJust 2c, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "D", "address": "daerian+urth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T23:11:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<1728B5D8-5418-41C0-996A-061131230BB6@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Jan 20, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agreed.\nSure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit. Severian\ndescribes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her nose as upturned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "upturned doesn't sound asian, more scandian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ". .\n\nAGIA DESCRIPTIONS:\n\n\"With her upturned nose and strangely tilted eyes, she looked so much like\nher brother I felt sure they were twins, but the slender figure and delicate\nfeatures that seemed incongruent in him were compelling in her.\"\n\n\"Of average height, with a short nose, wide cheekbones, and the elongated\nbrown eyes that often accompany them.\"\n\n\"Her voice was much deeper than I had expected.\"\n\n\"... wide, flat cheeks and softly rounded chin, freckled, sun-browned skin\nand long, laughing, mocking eyes.\"\n\n. .\n\nSeems like she is definitely Asian looking, laughing, mocking eyes,\nelongated, strangely tilted, with wide, flat cheekbones and delicate\nfeatures.\n\nAlso, what's up with the deep voice, and similar physique to her brother?\nIs this a man in drag or something?\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D38D188.5090309@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2011-01-21T00:21:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<758650.8590.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 20/01/11 20:46, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nAs far as Agia goes, Sev sees her naked with her brother, even though she is like the only woman in the book Sev does not actually have intercourse with, right? Yeah, don't the Pelerines strip and search her? She's a woman.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also through most of Agia's and Sev's journey to the Sanguinary Fields, \nshe's obliged to hold the bodice of her stage-costume gown up to her \nchest because it got ripped in the Jungle Garden and if she doesn't hold \nit up, her naked breasts will be exposed and she will, by her own \naccount 'be shamed for life'.\n\nShe's way p-d off about this of course, but doesn't do anything about \nit, because she hasn't the opportunity. Strongly suggests to me that not \nonly does this confirm that she really is a woman, but that in Nessus \nthe conventional view of decent dress conforms closely to that of most \nwestern countries nowadays (you don't have to cover your head or your \nface, unless you want to for religious reasons; but if you are female \nyou really do have to cover your body from the waist up, or you may get \narrested for conduct liable to cause a breach of the peace).\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3C462AC7-18E2-4C46-9CFE-6C599B11B028@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-01-21T00:24:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<4D38D188.5090309@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 7:21 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nAlso through most of Agia's and Sev's journey to the Sanguinary Fields, she's obliged to hold the bodice of her stage-costume gown up to her chest because it got ripped in the Jungle Garden and if she doesn't hold it up, her naked breasts will be exposed and she will, by her own account 'be shamed for life'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would argue she usually forgets she has a breast exposed and covers it up only after the fact out of courtesy or recognition.\n\nAnd for the record to others on here, I didn't mean she was literally a man, but I was acknowledging that something is off about her in more ways than one, and one of them was that her voice was deeper than Severian expected given her \"slight figure and delicate features.\"\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-21T03:16:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<3C462AC7-18E2-4C46-9CFE-6C599B11B028@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney: in Nessus the conventional view of decent dress conforms closely to that of most \nwestern countries nowadays." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgreed. In fact I'll go so far as to say the sexual morals in most of Gene wolfe's work mirror \nthat of the society Gene WOlfe actually lives in. I don't say this to mean that Gene Wolfe lacks\nthe imagination to create a strange new alien society with funky sexual habits. I mean that he\ndoes this deliberately because he really isn't interested in creating funky new planets and alien\nraces. His stories are purposefully meant to mirror our own society, address the issues we \nourselves face. For me his stories are like experiments. Let's show earth but with this particular\nset of changes- No Jesus. Sun is dying. Inside an asteroid. Pagan gods that talk to us. Pagan gods\ninside a computer. Etc. Set the conditions, wind it up and see where it will go.\n \nOh, sort of wandered off there..what I really wanted to note is that there is one interesting exception\nto the nudity taboo you mention, Jane. In Dr. Talos' play, Severian and Dorcas are naked on stage. I think\nJolenta is almost naked too (or fully? I forget). Anyway. Quite a persuasive fellow that Dr. Talos, eh? Or \nis this also a reflection of our own society and what we see in movies (and sometimes on stage).\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1822031114fbfebc682f77bafc0b1f1c.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-21T03:45:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(FWIW I always associated Agia with Jennifer Grey, circa Ferris Bueller's\nDay Off. If you add a slightly\ndarker complexion and a mocking smirk to this pic...\nhttp://cdn.babble.com/famecrawler/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Jennifer-Grey-403x340-23kb-media-796-media-79449-1030078805.jpg)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mostly a good choice, other than the nose. Here's a before and after\npicture, showing her infamous rhinoplasty:\n\nhttp://education.makemeheal.com/images/0/05/Jennifer-grey.jpg\n\nOn the left, the end of her nose is turned down, on the right it is not\nexactly up-turned, but much above the previous position. Now look at\nSwedish Britt Eklund's nose:\n\nhttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OQmEa5OKyOI/R6HxHOm2xoI/AAAAAAAABrA/p64p7DLRdcQ/s1600-h/BrittEklandE09.jpg\n\nclearly turned up with nostrils on display." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3934AE.1040702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-21T07:24:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Agia", "in_reply_to": "<3C462AC7-18E2-4C46-9CFE-6C599B11B028@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/20/2011 6:24 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nAnd for the record to others on here, I didn't mean she was literally a man, but I was acknowledging that something is off about her in more ways than one, and one of them was that her voice was deeper than Severian expected given her \"slight figure and delicate features.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dr Girlfriend!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }