{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5934", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5934, "subject": "Mystery of Ascia", "messages": 38, "voices": 11, "first": "2011-01-20T21:03:17+00:00", "last": "2011-01-26T01:30:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-20T21:03:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz wrote: ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit. Severian describes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her nose as upturned. ?I think this is more or less safe to say she is asian or Ascian. The tilt would seem strange to him because they seem novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She may be Asian, but not Ascian. Wolfe has been quite insistent that\nAscians are not Asian - they are North American. Asians are\nXanthoderms or from the Xanthic lands." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-20T21:20:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote: ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit. Severian describes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her nose as upturned. I think this is more or less safe to say she is asian or Ascian. The tilt would seem strange to him because they seem novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She may be Asian, but not Ascian. Wolfe has been quite insistent that\nAscians are not Asian - they are North American. Asians are\nXanthoderms or from the Xanthic lands." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm,\nFrankly, I think the comment is ass-covering in a PC era.\nNorth Americans could very well be Asian by the time of the story.\nWolfe leans Libertarian. I've heard many a Libertarian express the concern/prediction that China will overtake the US in the near future. Not implausible at all, really.\nClearly, these stand-ins for the \"Godless Communists\" embodied in Wolfe's life by the asians he combatted. The description and name seems so asian to me I think Wolfe is just back-pedaling in the interview.\n\nAnd, you know, Wolfe said \"Green is Urth\" as well, but that is routinely dismissed.\n\nIsn't Halavard from the Xanthic lands? He seems Scandinavian." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-01-20T22:50:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 20 Jan 2011, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Jan 20, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz wrote: ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sure, I suppose I can swallow the asian androgeny bit. Severian describes her eyes as \"strangely tilted\" and her nose as upturned. I think this is more or less safe to say she is asian or Ascian. The tilt would seem strange to him because they seem novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She may be Asian, but not Ascian. Wolfe has been quite insistent that\nAscians are not Asian - they are North American. Asians are\nXanthoderms or from the Xanthic lands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm, Frankly, I think the comment is ass-covering in a PC era. North \nAmericans could very well be Asian by the time of the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clearly, these stand-ins for the \"Godless Communists\" embodied in \nWolfe's life by the asians he combatted. The description and name seems \nso asian to me I think Wolfe is just back-pedaling in the interview." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Asians do not have freckles, except a few interesting Chinese families. \nSeverian comments that racial physiognomy and colour are acquired by \nliving on the same continent for long enough.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-21T13:01:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz: > Why would Wolfe, who does A LOT of intentional linking of \nphonetically similar names, use the word Ascian for what are essentially a \ncommunist metaphor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nActually, Witz, I think you are on the right track with this. I went through\nmuch of the same thought processes you have, though a sticking point was always\nthat I had an intuition from the text that Ascians looked caucasian.\n \nSomewhere I read a Gene Wolfe interview question on this topic and I'm really\nsorry to report that I can't find it again, despite a concerted effort. But\nin answering the question, Wolfe said that he meant to set the Ascian nation\nin what is now the United States because he knew that even this bastion of\nanti-communist Cold War sentiment could be nudged into socialism under the \nright conditions. Libertarian even back in the 70's. Sort of a warning, \n\"look this could happen to us if we aren't careful\".\n \nIt wasn't in the interview, but since reading that, I have guessed that\nWolfe chose the name \"Ascian\" because it is an amalgam of \"American\" and\n\"Asian\" adding the mistake about the equator/no shadow origin later to \njustify that name.\n \n \n(p.s. in my searches for the interview I chanced upon a video interview of\nGene Wolfe in regard to Wizard/Knight. Am I just hopelessly out of the loop\nto not have known of this? Amazing, for the first time in my life, to hear\nhim speak. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_mEpLK8cWE) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<73921191-632D-4219-80DC-AB313A422862@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-21T13:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2011, at 7:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nIt wasn't in the interview, but since reading that, I have guessed that\nWolfe chose the name \"Ascian\" because it is an amalgam of \"American\" and\n\"Asian\" adding the mistake about the equator/no shadow origin later to \njustify that name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disbelieve.\n\nOne of the things I remember figuring out on a very early reading of the books (although I don't think I read _Shadow_ until _Sword_ had already been published, and then I read them all at once), was putting together the clues of \"Ascian\", who lived in the remote north, to deduce that the action must be south of the Equator, and then that made it very easy to take Ultan's library and assert that Nessus was on the site of Buenos Aires, making Ultan's library Borges's. But then I was also wallowing in Borges at the time.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-21T20:41:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<73921191-632D-4219-80DC-AB313A422862@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still think a discussion of actual racial features is wrong-headed in a discussion\nof Ascians. I think the issue is diversity. North America, especially Wolfe's beloved USA\nhas always had a significant population of people with Native American features (which of \ncourse are derived from Asian ancestry). Since colonization, there has also been a \nsignificant portion of african-american and various european looks along with creole looks \nfrom the Caribbean and Latin America and those from the middle east polynesia and direct from \nAsia. \n \nI think the point of Ascians is not how they look but that they all look the same. Talk\nthe same, think the same, act the same. Right or wrong, that is the fear Wolfe is expressing\nin regards to communism. Koreans may have looked asian but so did some of Wolfe's fellow\nsoldiers. The sameness is the concern. The lack of diversity.\n \n \nBTW, someone mentioned Hallvard earlier. His name does sound nordic (and that is a saint \nname; had to check as I usually do). Interesting is that there is a significant germanic-\nnordic population to be found in southern S. America. A frequent spot for them to emigrate\nto as were the northern states in the USA of Wisconsin and Minnesota. I first learned of \nthat from my Argentinian roommate in college, Nikolaus. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-21T21:14:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, January 21, 2011 3:41 pm, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI still think a discussion of actual racial features is wrong-headed in a\ndiscussion\nof Ascians. ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nYes, we should reel back in. I only brought all that up because of Agia.\nSeverian describes Ascian eyes as \"brilliant\", \"wide\", \"insane\" and\n\"saner\". Maybe there is another adjective, but if Agia's were \"strangely\ntilted\" it is likely that he would have described them with a reference to\nAgia.\n\nWithout the relation of eyes, there may just be a phonetic association\nbetween them.\nAscia - Agia (and we could of course throw in Asia here).\nI don't think that is a particularly strong case though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the point of Ascians is not how they look but that they all look\nthe same. Talk the same, think the same, act the same. Right or wrong,\nthat is the fear\nWolfe is expressing in regards to communism. Koreans may have looked\nasian but so did > some of Wolfe's fellow soldiers. The sameness is the\nconcern. The lack of diversity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that is ABSOLUTELY the point, which is why I think it appropriate to\nlink the Ascians with the myth of the Humans who traded their Wild side.\nIt isn't about race AT ALL.\n\nI do not think Wolfe was trying to make a statement about Asians, though I\nthink the suggestions I've laid out are plausible as suggest why he might\nhave called these soulless communists Ascians other than the stated myth.\n\nThere is a hot button issue currently about a negative-reinforcement,\ndevaluing parenting philosophy ostensibly practiced by many\nChinese-Americans. Current issue of Time is about it. Tiger Parents. \nYesterday I was thinking all day about this idea of the AsCians' extreme\napplication of negating an individual's worth, then I came home and was\nintroduced to this Tiger Parenting issue. The combination of the two\nadmittedly non related subjects in my head, though, made for an\n?ber-creepy headspace for a while.\n\nI'm not going to try to describe the methodology, because I barely know\nanything about it. CNN has a bunch of stuff this week on it. It really\nseemed, to me, like a philosophy of cutting out a child's wild side." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-21T21:21:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (21-01-2011 20:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would be foolish to take a law such as Dollo's as an absolute in any\ncase - but it is a pretty solid general prediction if the conventional\ntheory of evolution is valid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Not really, since our species is not known for being dependent on biological \nadapation to the environment in the same way the others are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThere is something to what Antonio says but not only because humans use cultural flexibility to\nadapt to our environments. It is also because our species is so young. As young as 50,000 years \nold but no more than 1 million years old depending on how you want to define things. Either way, \nnot long enough for significant evolutionary change to take place, on the level that Dollo's Law\nrequires.\n \nAnyway, Dollo's Law, while insightful, is pretty damn archaic. It was formulated before Mendelian\ngenetics was widely understood. And even 5HoC was written before a couple revolutions in modern \nunderstanding of genetics occurred. So Gene Wolfe didn't understand that most shorter term evolution\n(like in the tens of millions of years) occurs by a shutting off of certain genes, not their\nloss from the gene pool.\n \nThis is one of the reason our genome is mostly composed of \"junk DNA\". Codes for stuff that doesn't\ndo anything. But the genes are often still there, and sometimes they get accidentally turned on as we\nsee when those rare children are born with a tail or covered in a furry pelt.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-21T22:04:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn wrote (21-01-2011 20:10):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It would be foolish to take a law such as Dollo's as an absolute in any\ncase - but it is a pretty solid general prediction if the conventional\ntheory of evolution is valid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques:\nNot really, since our species is not known for being dependent on \nbiological\nadapation to the environment in the same way the others are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is something to what Antonio says but not only because humans use \ncultural flexibility to\nadapt to our environments. It is also because our species is so young. As \nyoung as 50,000 years\nold but no more than 1 million years old depending on how you want to \ndefine things. Either way,\nnot long enough for significant evolutionary change to take place, on the \nlevel that Dollo's Law\nrequires." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nonsense. Dollo's Law will apply in any situation where selection is \nsufficient to reduce the presence of certain genes to a very small \nproportion of the population. It will also apply to a degree when new genes \nbecome essentially omnipresent in a population, or at least when new genes \nstart to interact significantly with other genes to the extent that they \ncannot simply be discarded.\n\nThis can and does occur on a timescale that is quite short compared to human \nevolutionary history.\n\nI gave an obvious example: a tribe of Swedes, relocated to sub-Saharan \nAfrica, will never become identical to the local people there (or more \nprecisely, to their ancestors there, if we assume for simplicity that they \nstarted there and moved as a tribe to Sweden), even though they will adapt \nto the local climate in ways which will probably be similar to a degree. \nThe Swedes have gained and lost genes over time, and the original pattern of \ngenes and corresponding traits will never be replaced. They may turn black, \nbut they will never be the same *shade* of black. This is precisely Dollo's \nLaw in action.\n\nDollo may have formulated it in terms of large structural changes, but it \napplies on a smaller scale too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, Dollo's Law, while insightful, is pretty damn archaic. It was \nformulated before Mendelian\ngenetics was widely understood. And even 5HoC was written before a couple \nrevolutions in modern\nunderstanding of genetics occurred. So Gene Wolfe didn't understand that \nmost shorter term evolution\n(like in the tens of millions of years) occurs by a shutting off of \ncertain genes, not their\nloss from the gene pool." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gravity was discovered before more modern understandings of it were \ndeveloped. Does that mean we should throw away the concept?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is one of the reason our genome is mostly composed of \"junk DNA\". \nCodes for stuff that doesn't\ndo anything. But the genes are often still there, and sometimes they get \naccidentally turned on as we\nsee when those rare children are born with a tail or covered in a furry \npelt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mechanism of shutting off is completely irrelevant. If a gene is shut \noff over many generations it is because another gene has changed, or been \nlost, or gained.\n\nIf humans develop tails or fur, they will be different from the tails and \nfur of our ancestors.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-22T01:34:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son Of Witz: There is a hot button issue currently about a negative-reinforcement,\ndevaluing parenting philosophy ostensibly practiced by many Chinese-Americans. \nCurrent issue of Time is about it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI am married to a Chinese-American and know her family well. I can testify that this is a real \nphenomenon I have been aware of for some time. A traditional Chinese family is not the place to \nbe if you want compliments. Excellence is expected but not praised. Engage in the slightest\nbragging and you will be pointedly ignored.\n \n(I've heard it has been changing back in China, esp. on the wealthy coastal areas where\nthe One Child Only policy is actually followed. They tend to treat their one kid in\nthe pattern seen among the Japanese, Asian Indians and American Jews- little prince/princesses.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The Swedes have gained and lost genes over time, and the original pattern of \ngenes and corresponding traits will never be replaced. They may turn black, \nbut they will never be the same *shade* of black. This is precisely Dollo's Law in action." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nSince this topic is not fiction, it is appropriate to say that you are incorrect. It sounds like\nyou are implying that sub-saharan Africans are all the same exact *shade* of black. They aren't.\nso there is no exact shade for Swedes to return to.\n \n50,000 years is a very short time in evolutionary history and for you to claim that Swedes have\nlost genes in that brief moment rather than had them shut off is a ridiculous statement to make \nwithout doing a full multi-population gene sequencing and comparison of both populations. Nobody \nwould waste the time and money to do such a worthless assay but it doesn't matter. Admixture\nwould do the trick long before genetic adaptation would kick in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The mechanism of shutting off is completely irrelevant. If a gene is shut off over many generations \nit is because another gene has changed, or been lost, or gained." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is an outdated understanding of genetics and organismal development. Expressed traits are now\nunderstood to be a function of GRNs (gene regulatory networks). A constellation of genes work in\nconcert and there are what might be seen as genetic on/off switches. Your argument is the same as \nsaying that once a light switch has been turned off in your house it can never be turned on again.\n \nCheck any current website on the subject if you don't believe me. Dollo's Law is currently understood \nas relevant to only to major phylogenetic branchings like different classes of vertebrates or even \norders of mammals. But certainly not for the minute genetic differences between geographical variants \nof the very same species (like Swedes and Africans). Anyway, as already noted, where admixture is \npossible, Dollo's Law becomes completely irrelevant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gravity was discovered before more modern understandings of it were developed. Does that mean we should \nthrow away the concept?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This statement really is beneath you. The same sort of blunder as \"the sky is blue\". But I'll address it \nanyway. Yes, gravity was discovered a long time ago but that understanding is archaic. We now know that\ngravity operates at one level on earth but at very different levels on other planets and negligibly in most\nparts of the universe. Let's not forget black holes. Nor string theory. Dollo's Law has been updated in its \napplication just like the Law Of Gravity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: But not applicable if congruent selection is halted to begin with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm not sure what you mean by this. Perhaps (based on an earlier comment) you think natural selection \nis no longer operating on human beings?\n \nIf so I would disagree. But I would suggest that human evolution is currently being driven more by the \nsocial environment we create for ourselves, rather than the natural, physical environment. Still the time\nframe is too short to truly know any particular direction we might be heading it. Get back to me in 1 million\nyears and I'll hazard a guess then.\n \n(social natural selection is still natural. Only when it comes to purposeful selective breeding [like dogs]\n and genetic engineering can we call it artificial selection) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<32DD2D37-3A7A-4014-A074-52F060100E2D@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-01-22T01:43:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 21, 2011, at 8:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n50,000 years is a very short time in evolutionary history and for you to claim that Swedes have\nlost genes in that brief moment rather than had them shut off is a ridiculous statement to make \nwithout doing a full multi-population gene sequencing and comparison of both populations. Nobody \nwould waste the time and money to do such a worthless assay but it doesn't matter. Admixture\nwould do the trick long before genetic adaptation would kick in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ouch! Why so harsh? Is Berman Swedish? Hehh.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<068EDFEE-73D2-4C3D-80AF-213D5FA87DB3@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son Of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-22T03:36:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jan 21, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nSon Of Witz: There is a hot button issue currently about a negative-reinforcement,\ndevaluing parenting philosophy ostensibly practiced by many Chinese-Americans. \nCurrent issue of Time is about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am married to a Chinese-American and know her family well. I can testify that this is a real \nphenomenon I have been aware of for some time. A traditional Chinese family is not the place to \nbe if you want compliments. Excellence is expected but not praised. Engage in the slightest\nbragging and you will be pointedly ignored.\n\n(I've heard it has been changing back in China, esp. on the wealthy coastal areas where\nthe One Child Only policy is actually followed. They tend to treat their one kid in\nthe pattern seen among the Japanese, Asian Indians and American Jews- little prince/princesses.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. thanks for sharing that. It's something I haven't been exposed to.\nI'm getting a really strong sense of retro-empathy for a particular Chinese-American fellow student back in high school. Some things I wondered about his apparent lack of self-esteem when he was constantly trouncing us in the grades dept now seem to make more sense. He never raise his hand in class, always seemed morbidly tense if he had to speak up. I'm wondering now if his parents were Tigers. I'm not one to say such methods are \"wrong\" but I have a real hard time relating. I don't want to treat my boys like princes who can't do wrong, but I do try hard to build their self esteem and sense of ability to maneuver in the world." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3A599A.4000409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-22T04:14:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 1/21/2011 7:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThe mechanism of shutting off is completely irrelevant. If a gene is shut off over many generations\nit is because another gene has changed, or been lost, or gained." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is an outdated understanding of genetics and organismal development. Expressed traits are now\nunderstood to be a function of GRNs (gene regulatory networks). A constellation of genes work in\nconcert and there are what might be seen as genetic on/off switches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who are you and what have you done with the real Lee Berman?!\n\nSeriously guys, despite Lee's fast and loose style in association of \nliterature with mythology, everything Les says about biological fact in \nthis post agress with my understanding of the subject as of the \nexhaustive consultations I arranged with multiple authorities including \ntwo working experimental researchers in the genetic engineering field \nand an editor of several of the field's professional journals on the \noccasion of GURPS BIO-TECH about four years back.\n\nAnd perhaps more remarkable, Lee's comments on Chinese parenting agree \nwith lots and lots of passages in the autobiographical fiction of Amy \nTan and the autobiography of Wen Ho Lee, two prominent Chinese \nAmericans. (Wen Ho is also a fellow Ag, who emigrated and went to grad \nschool at Texas A&M about a decade after Wolfe.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-22T04:34:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<4D3A599A.4000409@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: Ouch! Why so harsh? Is Berman Swedish? Hehh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LMAO, nah, something much worse. Anthropologist. But there is an anthro-linguistic principle\ncalled \"code switching\". Roughly means, \"people understand you best when you speak in their\ndialect\". I don't really like being harsh, but sometimes the need to communicate supersedes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o' Witz: I'm getting a really strong sense of retro-empathy for a particular Chinese-American\nfellow student back in high school. Some things I wondered about his apparent lack of self-esteem\nwhen he was constantly trouncing us in the grades dept now seem to make more sense. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYep, sounds a lot like my brother-in-law." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not one to say such methods are \"wrong\" but I have a real hard time relating. I don't want to \ntreat my boys like princes who can't do wrong, but I do try hard to build their self esteem and sense \nof ability to maneuver in the world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI also prefer to not judge (as much as possible, I am a creature of my own culture). Anthropology helps.\nBoth the Tiger Parent and Little Prince/Princess family strategy makes sense if they are viewed as\noriginating in a society with a rigid caste system. In the lower to middle classes, the best strategy\nis \"be humble and do your best to honor the family\". For the upper classes it makes sense to\nraise your kids to feel they deserve only the best, to accept nothing less. The message for all is basically \n\"know your place\". Some sort of caste system is always necessary in an overcrowded society. Too much\ncompetition over carefully portioned resources is bad for everyone. Like the Commonwealth (heh, had to \nget a WOlfe reference in somehow).\n \nA healthy mix of discipline and self-esteem building is probably the best parenting strategy in a society \nlike ours where there are rules to follow but also moderate opportunity for advancement. I think so anyway\nsince that's how I raise my kids. (Berman helpful hint of the day- be strict with your kids when they are\nyoung and loosen the reins when they become teens. Most kids raised this way will start to parent themselves, \ngradually given the freedom to do so). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5C53D0A0D39E42D585C20989B794519F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-22T05:48:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Swedes have gained and lost genes over time, and the original pattern \nof\ngenes and corresponding traits will never be replaced. They may turn \nblack,\nbut they will never be the same *shade* of black. This is precisely \nDollo's Law in action." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since this topic is not fiction, it is appropriate to say that you are \nincorrect. It sounds like\nyou are implying that sub-saharan Africans are all the same exact *shade* \nof black. They aren't.\nso there is no exact shade for Swedes to return to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't be absurd. Obviously we are simplifying the situation slightly for \nconveniencein discussion, but the fact is that this hypothethical Swedish \ntribe will never recover all the traits of their African ancestors. They \nwill have a unique and probably easily recognisable genotype and phenotype. \nDo you seriously doubt it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "50,000 years is a very short time in evolutionary history and for you to \nclaim that Swedes have\nlost genes in that brief moment rather than had them shut off is a \nridiculous statement to make\nwithout doing a full multi-population gene sequencing and comparison of \nboth populations. Nobody\nwould waste the time and money to do such a worthless assay but it doesn't \nmatter. Admixture\nwould do the trick long before genetic adaptation would kick in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A full paragraph of obfuscation. Just to adress the essentially irrelevant \npoints before I go on to the relevant matters... (1) 50000 years or 2000 \ngenerations is in fact a quite substantial time in human evolutionary \nhistory, and it is rather obvious that significant genetic changes have \ntaken place in human populations over such timescales. (2) As gene \nsequencing technology becomes cheaper and the information from it becomes \nmore pertinent, it is probable that an increasing number of studies will be \ndone, unless they are prevented by those opposing the gathering of this type \nof information for whatever reason. (3) We specified that our hypothethical \npopulation was isolated so your talk of admixture is irrelevant.\n\nNow to the relevant points. In the first place, I never claimed that the \nSwedes have necessarily lost genes (although it is almost certain that they \nhave). It may well be that most of the gene changes have been in regulatory \ngenes which control genes that directly affect phenotypical traits, and it \nis conceivable - though unlikely - that genes have only been gained but \nnever lost.. Even in the unlikely event that all this is the case, genes \nare still genes, and regulatory genes gained or lost are still genes gained \nor lost. .\n\nEven if we pretend (however unlikely) that no genes were lost and only \nregulatory genes gained, and if we pretend that adaptation to a return to \nAfrica will strongly favour the lost genes, it is surely quite obvious that \n(in accordance with Dollo's Law) there is no reasonable probability of the \noriginal pattern being restored.\n\nIn fact, even if we ignore genetic drift within Homo Sapiens lineages, \ncurrent thinking is that 1-4% of the genetic heritage of European and Asian \npopulations come from outcrossing with the subspecies Homo Neanderthalensis. \nIf this is so, your case is completely destroyed. But even if it isn't, \nyou are clearly incorrect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The mechanism of shutting off is completely irrelevant. If a gene is shut \noff over many generations\nit is because another gene has changed, or been lost, or gained." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is an outdated understanding of genetics and organismal development. \nExpressed traits are now\nunderstood to be a function of GRNs (gene regulatory networks). A \nconstellation of genes work in\nconcert and there are what might be seen as genetic on/off switches. Your \nargument is the same as\nsaying that once a light switch has been turned off in your house it can \nnever be turned on again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is nothing outdated about it - I was simply pointing out that the \ngenetic equivalent of light switches over many generations are genes \nthemselves. (Over just a few generations they could be epigenetic factors.) \nIf you like, a regulatory network that has evolved over 50000 years is \nitself a complex constellation of genes which will never be recovered by \nnatural selection, even if the environment is restored to the environment of \n50000 years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Check any current website on the subject if you don't believe me. Dollo's \nLaw is currently understood\nas relevant to only to major phylogenetic branchings like different \nclasses of vertebrates or even\norders of mammals. But certainly not for the minute genetic differences \nbetween geographical variants\nof the very same species (like Swedes and Africans). Anyway, as already \nnoted, where admixture is\npossible, Dollo's Law becomes completely irrelevant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dollo's Law is clearly generalisable to minor traits. For all I know there \nmay be another name for it in such cases, or it may be that the sites you \nconsulted provide an inadequate briefing on the issue; it is irrelevant \neither way. Admixture is also irrelevant to the hypothesis under \ndiscussion, although it might indeed be relevant to the issue of \"natural \ntypes of countries\" - one could hypothesise that if an invading population \ninterbreeds with a native population, the better-adapted native traits will \ntend to predominate. Indeed, this does I suppose provide a rationale for the \npossibility of 'natural country types' in some cases - precisely because it \nprovides a mechanism for escaping Dollo's Law." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gravity was discovered before more modern understandings of it were \ndeveloped. Does that mean we should\nthrow away the concept?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This statement really is beneath you. The same sort of blunder as \"the sky \nis blue\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just because I didn't bother to remonstrate with you doesn't mean I accept \nyour assertion that the sky is pink, or green, or whatever colour you claim \nit is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I'll address it\nanyway. Yes, gravity was discovered a long time ago but that understanding \nis archaic. We now know that\ngravity operates at one level on earth but at very different levels on \nother planets and negligibly in most\nparts of the universe. Let's not forget black holes. Nor string theory. \nDollo's Law has been updated in its\napplication just like the Law Of Gravity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But apples still fall, and Dollo's Law still applies. Modern theories may \nexplain them better, but the realitry remains as it always was. The \nancients knew nothing about how the scattering of electromagnetic radiation \nby dust particles is affected by wavelength, yet they could see that the sky \nis blue. And that apples fall. Dollo's Law is an observation of more \nrecent times, but none the less eternally true for that, so long as the \nbiological world to which it applies persists.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3A785F.90802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-22T06:25:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<5C53D0A0D39E42D585C20989B794519F@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/21/2011 11:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gravity was discovered before more modern understandings of it were\ndeveloped. Does that mean we should\nthrow away the concept?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This statement really is beneath you. The same sort of blunder as \"the\nsky is blue\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just because I didn't bother to remonstrate with you doesn't mean I\naccept your assertion that the sky is pink, or green, or whatever colour\nyou claim it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, a bit less than half the time it's black, and a bit less than that \nit's mostly blue of some shade. The remaining time is mostly reds and \noranges, but there are definite attested and documented times for all of \nthe above.\n\nLikewise, gravity has remained the phenomenon of most unsupported \nmaterial objects accelerating toward the earth, but the existence of the \nforce supposed to cause this has come into serious question during the \npast century. It's still treated as a force for simplicity since it \ninvolves acceleration of mass, but the most peculiar geometric \nabstraction behind Einsteinian gravity is unlike anything else my \nphysics text calls a force." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-22T13:11:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<4D3A785F.90802@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, I just can't maintain that tone you prefer to communicate in for \nparagraph after paragraph. So I'll just gently mention a few corrections\nof your last post for whomever might be following then let it drop." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(1) 50000 years or 2000 generations is in fact a quite substantial time \nin human evolutionary history, and it is rather obvious that significant \ngenetic changes have taken place in human populations over such timescales." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe sort of evolutionary change from which Dollo's Law was formulated takes 10's \nof millions of years. Humans and chimpanzees share 98% of the same genetic code. \nThis amount of change is currently estimated to have taken around 18 million years.\n \nThe huge amount of genetic difference many people assume exist among modern\nHomo sapiens sapiens is largely an illusion perpetrated by dietary and other \nenvironmental differences, clothing and hair style differences, and a xenophobic\nbias which pushes us to exaggerate visual differences, probably an ancient\ntribal recognition trait.\n \nSwedes and Africans were not genetically separated for 50,000 and thus are even \ncloser than the 99.998% similarity that time frame suggests. Walking seems like\nslow transportation but given thousands of years it works quite well to provide a\ngenetic continuity across our entire species. And anywhere you can walk or boat,\nyou can walk or boat back. \n \nSome think of Swedes as \"pale skinned, blonde and blue eyed\" but the majority are \nnot of this stereotype. Genes for dark coloration remain fully available there.\n \nAs a thought experiment, let's pretend an experimenter grabbed a random sample of \n1000 babies from the different races and sub-races around the globe that people (though\nnot scientists) say they recognize. All those babies are raised in an isolated commune \nwith the same diet, sunlight exposure, clothing, hairstyle etc. As adults, this commune \nwould not have recognizable \"races\". It would demonstrate a single species with slight \ngradations of diversity, which is what the world population of humanity is, from a \ngenetic perspective. It is only when you focus exclusively on extremes and ignore \ngradations and environmental and cultural differences that genetic \"races\" can be \n\"clearly\" identified." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fact, even if we ignore genetic drift within Homo Sapiens lineages, \ncurrent thinking is that 1-4% of the genetic heritage of European and Asian \npopulations come from outcrossing with the subspecies Homo Neanderthalensis. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThere has been much debate in the past 50 years but the current majority opinion is that\nHomo neanderthalensis (proper nomenclature= genus capitalized, species lower-case)\nwas, as that name implies, a different species than Homo sapiens sapiens. Meaning\nthere was no interbreeding. Neanderthals originated in Africa then spread out as far\nas Europe. Later, Homo sapiens evolved in Africa and spread out even further.\n \nIt is just hypothesis. There is no way to know, without experimentation, whether Homo sapiens \nand neanderthals 1. could not produce offspring (like humans and chimps)* or 2. could only \nproduce sterile mules (like horses and donkeys) or 3. actually could interbreed with viable \noffspring. \n \nIt doesn't matter. If \"neanderthal genes\" are present in the Homo sapiens gene pool they \nhave been spread across our species, not concentrated in Europe or something like that.\nIn the real world of the human species you can't ignore admixture. It part of who we are.\nWe see \"races\" through a current snapshot of humanity around the globe. But 10,000 years \nago that snapshot would have looked a lot different. In 10,000 years that snapshot will\nlook very different again. These differences will have occurred without significant genetic \nchanges. \n \nThe occasional (might be 1 in 10 million) dark baby born to light parents in Sweden or pale\nbaby born to dark parents in Africa and the even rarer occasion of a baby born with a tail \ndemonstrates that the genetic potential of our ancestors remains in our genome, waiting to\nbe turned on, whether by accident, or perhaps someday, by necessity.\n \n \n*(the main reason humans and chimps cannot interbreed is not genetic dissimilarity but chromosomal\ndifferences [different number]. I don't know if it has ever been tried but if these species \nattempted to interbreed, the chromosomes would not match up properly during fertilization to allow \na viable embryo to form)\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6D2030BD-1965-497B-9815-A0870EB4CB36@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-22T13:55:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/01/22, ?s 13:11, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*(the main reason humans and chimps cannot interbreed is not genetic \ndissimilarity but chromosomal\ndifferences [different number]. I don't know if it has ever been \ntried but if these species\nattempted to interbreed, the chromosomes would not match up properly \nduring fertilization to allow\na viable embryo to form)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is more properly the reason why mules are sterile - their \nmaternal and paternal chromatids don't line up for meiosis. When \npopulations become too dissimilar to interbreed, it's usually down to \nmechanics and gametal attachment incompatibility before chromosomal \norganisation. The latter of course matters because for a via le \ndiploid organism about half the genome has to be deactivated, but \nthere's some margin there (aneuploidy syndromes show some of the \nresults when that's not possible).\n\nBut generally speaking I think these discussions are spurious. Again, \nobservational data is usually solid. Explanations for it are ephemeral \nand one shouldn't count on them to understand the Books. \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5C64780338234FA292FED6746092C7D8@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-23T02:11:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(1) 50000 years or 2000 generations is in fact a quite substantial time\nin human evolutionary history, and it is rather obvious that significant\ngenetic changes have taken place in human populations over such \ntimescales." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sort of evolutionary change from which Dollo's Law was formulated \ntakes 10's\nof millions of years. Humans and chimpanzees share 98% of the same genetic \ncode.\nThis amount of change is currently estimated to have taken around 18 \nmillion years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dollo's Law was formulated before the days of molecular genetics, but it is \neasily generalised. Essentially it is a statement about the irreversibility \nof evolution, and its truth or otherwise can be observed on any scale on \nwhich one cares to look, including evolutionatu changes taking place over \nquite short timescales. The key issue is irreversibility.\n\nYour 98% figure is essentially meaningless. From human to chimpanzee is a \nconsiderable difference, at least according to criteria which would be \nconsidered important by humans and chimpanzees. If by some definition, the \ngenetic difference is only 2%, all it proves is that 2% is a huge \ndifference, and much smaller differences would be important.\n\nWhat matters is not the numeric value, as measured by whatever criterion, \nbut the net effect on phenotype." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The huge amount of genetic difference many people assume exist among \nmodern\nHomo sapiens sapiens is largely an illusion perpetrated by dietary and \nother\nenvironmental differences, clothing and hair style differences, and a \nxenophobic\nbias which pushes us to exaggerate visual differences, probably an ancient\ntribal recognition trait." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly some people ezaggerate the difference between races (or whatever \nother paradigm they use to describe genetic differences among populations). \nOn the other hand, it is equally true that many people - including not a few \nscientists - falsely minimise these differences, presumably taking the view \nthat interracial harmony is more important than scientific truth. It's by \nno means obvious that their lies (or at least statements carefully designed \nto mislead) do indeed lead to interracial harmony, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Swedes and Africans were not genetically separated for 50,000 and thus are \neven\ncloser than the 99.998% similarity that time frame suggests. Walking seems \nlike\nslow transportation but given thousands of years it works quite well to \nprovide a\ngenetic continuity across our entire species. And anywhere you can walk or \nboat,\nyou can walk or boat back." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the first place, your figure of \"99.998% similarity\" is both wrong and \nirrelevant.\n\nIn the second place, you seem to be setting a lot of store by the fact that \ngeographiically separated populations may not be completely separated. \nAbsence of complete separation does not in any way preclude genetic drift \nbetween populations The most obvious counterexamples are 'ring species':" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Wikipedia:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In biology, a ring species is a connected series of neighboring populations, \neach of which can interbreed with closely sited related populations, but for \nwhich there exist at least two \"end\" populations in the series, which are \ntoo distantly related to interbreed, though there is a potential gene flow \nbetween each \"linked\" species. Such \nnon-breeding-though-genetically-connected \"end\" populations may co-exist in \nthe same region thus closing a \"ring\".\n\nRing species clearly give the lie to your notion that the possibility of \noccasional interbreeding eliminates the possibility of significant genetic \ndrift.\n\nAnother thing giving the lie to it was mentioned already - the existence of \nhuman populations with considerably different phenotypes side by side - e.g. \nPygmies and larger peoples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As a thought experiment, let's pretend an experimenter grabbed a random \nsample of\n1000 babies from the different races and sub-races around the globe that \npeople (though\nnot scientists) say they recognize. All those babies are raised in an \nisolated commune\nwith the same diet, sunlight exposure, clothing, hairstyle etc. As adults, \nthis commune\nwould not have recognizable \"races\". It would demonstrate a single species \nwith slight\ngradations of diversity, which is what the world population of humanity \nis, from a\ngenetic perspective. It is only when you focus exclusively on extremes and \nignore\ngradations and environmental and cultural differences that genetic \"races\" \ncan be\n\"clearly\" identified." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you seriously proposing that the genetic heritage of these children \nwould somehow disappear? Adopted children of different racial origin from \ntheir parents are commonly reared in their parents community. They don't \ndevelop all the phenotypical features of their adoptive parents!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In fact, even if we ignore genetic drift within Homo Sapiens lineages,\ncurrent thinking is that 1-4% of the genetic heritage of European and \nAsian\npopulations come from outcrossing with the subspecies Homo \nNeanderthalensis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There has been much debate in the past 50 years but the current majority \nopinion is that\nHomo neanderthalensis (proper nomenclature= genus capitalized, species \nlower-case)\nwas, as that name implies, a different species than Homo sapiens sapiens. \nMeaning\nthere was no interbreeding. Neanderthals originated in Africa then spread \nout as far\nas Europe. Later, Homo sapiens evolved in Africa and spread out even \nfurther." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The new research was in the news lately. Here's a link to a news report:\n http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8660940.stm\nOf course it might be proven incorrect, but what it says is exactly what I \nstated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is just hypothesis. There is no way to know, without experimentation, \nwhether Homo sapiens\nand neanderthals 1. could not produce offspring (like humans and chimps)* \nor 2. could only\nproduce sterile mules (like horses and donkeys) or 3. actually could \ninterbreed with viable\noffspring.\n\nIt doesn't matter. If \"neanderthal genes\" are present in the Homo sapiens \ngene pool they\nhave been spread across our species, not concentrated in Europe or \nsomething like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The research indicates where they have spread, and where they have not. \nSpecifically, they found the Neanderthal genes in French, Chinese and Papuan \npopulations, and not in San or Yoruba populations from sub-Saharan Africa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The occasional (might be 1 in 10 million) dark baby born to light parents \nin Sweden or pale\nbaby born to dark parents in Africa and the even rarer occasion of a baby \nborn with a tail\ndemonstrates that the genetic potential of our ancestors remains in our \ngenome, waiting to\nbe turned on, whether by accident, or perhaps someday, by necessity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but the genes of a dark-skinned baby from Swedish stock, while they \nwill probably lead to the expression of melanin of some kind, will probably \nbe differnt in some ways to the genes currently expressed by the various \ndark-skinned races. They are likely to lead to the production of different \nkinds of melanin in differnt proportions. Like I said, a tribe of Swedes \nthat moved to Africa would eventually grow dark skinned, but they would look \ndifferent from nearby tribes. There is no 'natural country type'. \nIrreversibility of evolution (the generalised principle of Dollo's Law) says \nso.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-23T04:16:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<5C64780338234FA292FED6746092C7D8@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, I wasn't going to continue this thread but you seem so intensely interested \nin the subject, which is my field of speciality, I'm willing to give it one last try\nif the List does not have major objections. This is contingent on the idea that you\nreally are interested in learning something about this field from me. It may be that \nyou are not interested and consider me an unsuitable instructor because of our differences \nin interpreteting Gene Wolfe. It may be that you want to win this argument, feeling the \nenjoyment of being the mathematician who has schooled the anthropologist in basic \nanthropology. If this is the case, I understand and we can let it drop. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-23T06:15:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \n\nGerry, I wasn't going to continue this thread but you seem so intensely \ninterested\nin the subject, which is my field of speciality, I'm willing to give it \none last try\nif the List does not have major objections. This is contingent on the idea \nthat you\nreally are interested in learning something about this field from me. It \nmay be that\nyou are not interested and consider me an unsuitable instructor because of \nour differences\nin interpreteting Gene Wolfe. It may be that you want to win this \nargument, feeling the\nenjoyment of being the mathematician who has schooled the anthropologist \nin basic\nanthropology. If this is the case, I understand and we can let it drop." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm certainly interested in learning, Lee, whether from you or anybody else. \nI hope however that \"learning something about the field from me\", does not \nmean taking you as some sort of unchallengeable authority on all subjects \nconnected to anthropology.\n\nThat is not intended as any sort of insult - I would not take all Albert \nEinstein's views on physics as gospel either. I merely note that neither \nauthority nor democracy are optimal criteria for determining scientific \ntruth. Point to the observations and the theories they prove, and I hope I \nwill be convinced to a degree appropriate to their force.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-23T14:07:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I'm certainly interested in learning, Lee, whether from you or anybody else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nOkay, then I am willing to give it one last go-around. It occurred to me that is the trait\nof discussion were kidney shape or histone frequency or other non-visible items it would be\na less politically/culturally loaded discussion. Among visible human features, surely none\nis more subject to biased thinking than skin color. But perhaps this can be turned to an \nadvantage. So, I'll try an alternate route to understanding.\n \nI have often heard the mistaken notion that the human race is moving toward homegeneity in\nskin color (usually from liberal-leaning thinkers). The idea is, \"Someday we'll all be the\nsame golden brown color; like Brazilians!\" The mistake is due to an errant understanding of \nboth molecular and population genetics. Which is understandable in the general population.\n \nThe thinking must be that the genes for pale nordic skin and the dark brown african skin of \nBrazilian ancestors have somehow been lost in the \"blending\" process of making a golden brown \nbabies. All one needs to do is go to Brazil to learn the mistake of this.\n \nWhen two golden brown skin Brazilian people people mate, their children's skin color can be in \na range from \"white\" to \"black\". Nothing has been lost. So it will remain, generation after\ngeneration in Brazil and the world. Discounting a global eugenics movement, killing all pale white \nand dark black babies, our human future involves retained diversity in skin color not homegeneity.\n \nThe same principle applies to the rassenkreis or \"ring species\" you mention Gerry. As long as\nthere is mating capability possible among all adjacent sub-species in the ring, any and all\ngenes present in the population can and likely will be shared and not lost. That's why a \nrassenkreis population are all considered members of the same species though certain individuals,\nif artificially brought into contact, cannot interbreed.\n \nThe same principle applies to your Neanderthal genes example. San people are found to not have\nNeanderthal genes due to their extreme isolation. But the capacity for that population to absorb\nNeanderthal gene has not been lost. Perhaps Dr. Sorensson's after-research tryst with !X?H?? did\nthat very thing. (the symbols represent those cool click sounds in the Khoi-san languages). As\nlong as the possiblity of admixture exists, Dollo's Principle does not apply.\n \nThus for your hypothetical isolated Swedes in Africa population. First, as was discussed in a previous \npost, Native Swedes have likely not lost the genetic capability for extremely dark skin. It is \njust turned off. But even if, by some quirk of genetic drift, your sample population of Swedes HAD\nlost that gene, it wouldn't matter.\n \nAs long as Swedes remain human beings they have not lost the potential for admixture and the expression\nof dark skin. As your Neanderthal article demonstrates, even two closely related but different species \nof humans retain the potential to share genes (1-4%). As long as this potential remains, (even at .0001%)\nDollo's Principle is null and void.\n \nPerhaps, after 20 million years, if your isolated Swedish population remained completely isolated, they might\nbecame a new species. Once this species became so different that there was 0.00% possibility of viable mating \nwith Homo sapiens, ONLY then could the rachet effect of Dollo's principle come into play. For Dollo's law to \napply to your Swedes they would have to cease being human (in which case I think it would be fair to stop calling \nthem Swedes. How about Eloi?...Morelocks?).\n \nAnd the key issue here is that Wolfe/Severian is asserting that on Urth, beings spread across different continents \nand even different planets are still considered human. Thus no Dollo. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-23T19:16:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, then I am willing to give it one last go-around. It occurred to me \nthat is the trait\nof discussion were kidney shape or histone frequency or other non-visible \nitems it would be\na less politically/culturally loaded discussion. Among visible human \nfeatures, surely none\nis more subject to biased thinking than skin color. But perhaps this can \nbe turned to an\nadvantage. So, I'll try an alternate route to understanding." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was never about skin colour. [Nor is skin colour especially susceptible \nto biased thinking, in my opinion. The notion that those who believe in \nracial differences are hypnotised by an obsession with skin colour is a \npopular straw man which has little basis in truth.]\n\nI concede that my use of the term Dollo's Law to cover general principles of \nevolutionary irreversibility was incorrect. Dollo's Law appears to be used \nonly in the context of single complex traits of a certain kind. However, I \nstill think a form of evolutionary irreversibility will apply such that \nthere can never be a \"natural country type\".\n\nEven if all individual traits are recoverable, a particular constellation of \ntraits may be statistically unrecoverable.\n\nWhat I am saying is that there will be numerous possible valid adaptations \nto the conditions pertaining within a region, and the particular adaptations \nselected will depend both on the local conditions, and on the genetic \nhistory of the evolving group (and undoubtedly on other things, too). So, \nmy hypothethical Swedish tribe migrating to Africa would develop a unique \nappearance; they would adapt to increased solar radiation, but not in \nexactly the same way as other groups living in the same place have adapted. \nBy the same token, a tribe of Yoruba migrating to Sweden would, after \nadaptation, still look noticeably different from the current Swedish \npopulation.\n\nThat doesn't mean that Swedes don't have genes in their population - whether \nomnipresent but suppressed by regulatory genes or simply at low frequency - \nfor dark skin, flat noses, curly hair, and any other traits that may be \nadaptive in tropical conditions. It means that even if Swedish versions of \nsuch genes are enhanced in the population, they won't be exactly the same \nversions in the same proportions that are enhanced in other populations. \nMaybe there are even some Neanderthal genes that proved useless in Sweden \nbut in conjunction with other genes would become frequent in such a \ntransplanted population." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When two golden brown skin Brazilian people people mate, their children's \nskin color can be in\na range from \"white\" to \"black\". Nothing has been lost. So it will remain, \ngeneration after\ngeneration in Brazil and the world. Discounting a global eugenics \nmovement, killing all pale white\nand dark black babies, our human future involves retained diversity in \nskin color not homegeneity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. My argument does not depend on certain genes being unique to \ncertain races." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The same principle applies to your Neanderthal genes example. San people \nare found to not have\nNeanderthal genes due to their extreme isolation. But the capacity for \nthat population to absorb\nNeanderthal gene has not been lost." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither the San nor the Yoruba peoples have been especially isolated. Both \nthroughout history have had considerable interaction with other populations. \nYet the Neanderthal genes have not been observed in them. This is clear \nevidence that occasional gene transfer does not lead to genetic \nhomogeneity. (I would guess that Neandertal genes probably *are* present in \nsome individuals, but have not breen selected for in the populations, so \nremain at low concentrations.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps, after 20 million years, if your isolated Swedish population \nremained completely isolated, they might\nbecame a new species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it would not take so long for them to become a new race, nor would \noccasional outcrossing prevent it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once this species became so different that there was 0.00% possibility of \nviable mating\nwith Homo sapiens, ONLY then could the rachet effect of Dollo's principle \ncome into play. For Dollo's law to\napply to your Swedes they would have to cease being human (in which case I \nthink it would be fair to stop calling\nthem Swedes. How about Eloi?...Morelocks?).\n\nAnd the key issue here is that Wolfe/Severian is asserting that on Urth, \nbeings spread across different continents\nand even different planets are still considered human. Thus no Dollo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But also no natural country (or planetary) types, for reasons to do with \nevolutionary irreversibility, even if not precisely that aspect of it \nobserved by Dollo.\n\nIndeed, Wolfe himself gives an example in 5HoC. The Sainte Croix populace \ndisplay a similarity of features - their \"planetary face\" - due not to \nconditions of Sainte Croix but to their ancestry in a particular, relatively \nhomogenous group of colonists. [There are of course, \"gypsies and criminal \ntribes\" who look different, and among whom the descendants of the native \nAnnese, or at least those who took on human appearance, are undoubtedly to \nbe found.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-23T23:50:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I concede that my use of the term Dollo's Law to cover general principles of \nevolutionary irreversibility was incorrect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think it makes intuitive sense. Mixing up gene combinations is essential for survival of\na gene line allowing organismal adaptability. Sexual creatures do it, but even most asexual\norganisms, including bacteria, have various means of swapping genetic material with each other.\n \nIrreversibility is a huge evolutionary red flag. It will most often lead to extinction. If a \ngene line finds itself on an irreversible path of change it is a huge risk (since the original \nform was obviously a successful one in a given environment- changed environments usually change\nback). So irreversibility is a rare exception while reversibility is the rule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was never about skin colour. [Nor is skin colour especially susceptible \nto biased thinking, in my opinion. The notion that those who believe in \nracial differences are hypnotised by an obsession with skin colour is a \npopular straw man which has little basis in truth.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nPerhaps I've been dense about the undertones of this discussion but I'm not really sure what you\nmean by \"those who believe in racial differences\" and the lack of importance of skin color. What\nIS important to those who believe in racial differences?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, my hypothethical Swedish tribe migrating to Africa would develop a unique \nappearance; they would adapt to increased solar radiation, but not in \nexactly the same way as other groups living in the same place have adapted. \nBy the same token, a tribe of Yoruba migrating to Sweden would, after \nadaptation, still look noticeably different from the current Swedish \npopulation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhat I think you continue to miss is that there is no \"exactly the same way\" groups of humans\nadapt. There was no \"original color\" of Africans. There was always and will always be a range.\nThe color range of Africans today is not the color range of Africans 50,000 years ago. And it\nwill be a different range, 50,000 years hence.\n \nIf you took a sample tribe of Swedes and isolated them *in Sweden* or did the same for a group\nof Yoruba *in Africa* and gave them 1 million years of (hypothetical of course) complete isolation\nboth groups would differ significantly from their non-isolated neighbors of the both past and that \nfuture. \n \nYour hypothesis is staged under unnatural conditions. Under natural conditions, admixture is an \nessential part of the composition of a gene pool. Even for bacteria. It reduces irreversibility, \nwhich is necessary as explained above.\n \nA gene pool is a dyanmic thing, in constant motion and change. It sounds like you are arguing that\na bear walking around the woods can never be in exactly the same spot, to the nanometer, with\nthe exactly same set of atoms composing its body. And the answer to that would seem to be, \"so what?\"\nAre you arguing the bear isn't the same bear because it walked a few meters over and took a dump?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That doesn't mean that Swedes don't have genes in their population - whether omnipresent but suppressed \nby regulatory genes or simply at low frequency - for dark skin, flat noses, curly hair, and any other \ntraits that may be adaptive in tropical conditions. It means that even if Swedish versions of such genes \nare enhanced in the population, they won't be exactly the same versions in the same proportions that are \nenhanced in other populations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAre noses, hair shape and other tropical adaptive traits, the ones which are more important than skin\ncolor to those who believe in racial differences?\n \nThere isn't such a thing as a \"Swedish version\" of a gene. While gene pools are mercurial, genes are not.\nChanging one single base code among tens of millions on the gene for insulin is what makes people diabetic. \nGenes are copied faithfully person to person. Mutations are almost always harmful.\n \nA given gene expresses itself differently based on the other genes on a chromosome it happens to share, on \nthe combinations of genes on other chromosomes of the organism, on the development and environment and\ndiet of the organism, etc. \n \nThink of the skin color of each human being as a result of throwing 100 dice simultaneously. The dice\nremain the same. It is the vast array of possible combinations which provide different results. The exact\ncombination really doesn't matter. Does it matter whether a certain skin shade of, let's call it 450, is the \nresult of 100 sixes in one individual and 50 sixes in another? No, the outward expression of color 450\nis all that matters. \n \nAnd the presence of ones, two, threes etc. on the dice remain the same, generation after generation no matter \nhow they are mixed in a particular generation. Selection may shut off a particular numeral for a while, but it is \nstill there on the die, hidden from view, ready to turn on again one day." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, I still think a form of evolutionary irreversibility will apply such that there can never be a \"natural \ncountry type\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't understand what you are arguing. If evolution were irreversible wouldn't that argue FOR a \"natuaral\ncountry type\"?\n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-24T04:02:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, I later realized I can answer two of my questions to you myself. When\nyou mention \"those who believe in race\" you are referring to sort of a polarizing\nnotion in anthropology on whether there is any scienfific basis to the idea of race.\n \nSome argue that all the \"obvious\" demarcations of race have to do with visual appearance\nand little to do with genetic analysis so \"race\" is an artifact of biased perceptions\nand exaggerations of the importance of physical appearance, which has little scientific\nvalue. \n \nOthers argue there are a few genetic markers that sort of separate the races but the\nobvious evidence is...well, LOOK at us! We are different. Anyone can see it.\n \nMy opinion is pretty much the same as for all controversial issues. There is validity\nto both arguments. Homo sapiens may be not be a \"ring species\" but our species could be\ndescribed as \"star-shaped\". The arguments back and forth are simply whether more of our\nessence is to be found in the points of the star or the middle of it. Not an important\nargument for me. A star has both a middle and points.\n \n \nThe other was your assertion of \"no natural country (or planetary) types\". I remember now\nsomeone brought up epicanthic folds as a cold weather adaptation. With the argument that\nany cold weather region would select for these folds.\n \nMaybe you are noting that \"asian eyes\" are found in tropical Asian areas and this is your\ninspiration for \"Dollo's Law\", feeling that epicanthic folds have become \"locked in\" to \nAsian populations. (they haven't, of course. Any illusion of this is caused by thinking\nthat what exists now will exist forever.)\n \nLight skin is a different cold weather (low light actually) adaptation found in Europe more than\nAsian populations. And we know that European immigrants to the tropics tend to retain that light\nskin in their offspring. Same thing for big noses. Europe more than Asia. Again, nothing is locked\nin. Plenty of individuals in Europe with light skin, blue eyes and epicanthic folds. Likewise many \nasians have round eyes, big noses and skin in various shades.\n \nMy advice on this issue is to not place too much stock in the genetic cross-section of \nhumanity that we see now. True understanding of population genetics requires many generations\nof study. To think we really understand the nature of the human species by what we can find now would \nbe as silly as taking a video of Gerry Quinn's day from rising in the morning to sleeping at night,\nthen taking one still shot from that 17 hour video and saying, \"This is Gerry's day! All we need to \nknow\". \n \nThe human gene pool is in motion, over many thousands of years. The star keeps changing shape. The \nreality of it, the essence, is not what exists at any given moment but the totality of it, from origin \nto extinction. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3D946B.4060102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-24T15:02:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<73921191-632D-4219-80DC-AB313A422862@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman -\nIt wasn't in the interview, but since reading that, I have guessed that\nWolfe chose the name \"Ascian\" because it is an amalgam of \"American\" and\n\"Asian\" adding the mistake about the equator/no shadow origin later to\njustify that name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe has said in an interview that the Ascian (as-kee-an) / Asian false \nassociation never occurred to him at the time of writing but \nacknowledged that it was a reasonable inference for a reader to make. \nThe idea was that most people of the Commonwealth thought the Ascians \nwere from the equator and had no idea that they were from much further \nnorth.\n\nOf course, the name also implies that they are in darkness (\"no \nshadow\"); rejecting the light of the New Sun.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-24T16:24:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<4D3D946B.4060102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Wolfe has said in an interview that the Ascian (as-kee-an) / Asian false association \nnever occurred to him at the time of writing but acknowledged that it was a reasonable inference \nfor a reader to make. The idea was that most people of the Commonwealth thought the Ascians were \nfrom the equator and had no idea that they were from much further north. Of course, the name also \nimplies that they are in darkness (\"no shadow\"); rejecting the light of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nThanks James. It is interesting and good to know that Wolfe's idea for the name Ascian had only to\ndo with the equator-dwelling mistake and not with Asia or America.\n \nI would disagree that the name implies dwelling in darkness. Being shadowless at the equator implies\none is in such direct, overhead sunlight that no shadow is formed.\n \nThis might agree with a current hypothesis I (and I think some others) are exploring: that the New Sun\nis actually the thing most desired by the rulers of the Ascians, Erebus and Abaia. The one thing these\nmonstrous, immortal, ocean-bound creatures would fear most is Ragnarok, the ultimate winter, with \nfrozen oceans and frozen atmosphere. (remembering that, per Ash, in the future of ice, and unlike Ushas, \nmost of Urth's humanity is saved).\n \nTo meander a little, I picture Ascia as a well-lit place. Few trees, few shadows. Everything chopped down \nto make fields and farms for agricultural communes. Apollonian/sun god society- everything based on order \nand rules and proper forms and proper speech. Forests are Dionysian places.\n \nContrast this with the Jungle Sorcerers. They prefer to live in shade and shadow. No agriculture.\nTheir society is based on individual ability, magic and trickery. Even the formal test they set up for\nSeverian is a sham. Cheating and trickery was inherent in it. Decuman had a blowgun dart and the \nsorcerers had their spears and claws to assure that Severian would be killed if Decuman's mysticism \ndidn't work. They admire Severian greatly for his (not really his) trick of using the slug.\n \nHm...you know...it just occurs to me...It is part of my growing hypothesis that Hethor (the true\nboss of the partnership) never wanted to kill Severian, just test his abilities. Could the slug\nhave been used by Hethor BECAUSE Severian was in real danger of losing and being killed by the jungle\nsorcerers? The timing is awfully suspicious to think the slug was intended to kill Severian. \n \nYou could argue that Agia wanted to kill Severian herself. But was she the real boss? Anyway she had numerous\nreal opportunities to kill him herself on his journey. Or capture him and torture him for weeks, then kill him.\nShe was riding a flying peryton that could have grabbed him at any time (as it did to rescue him from the evzones).\n \nBut she never did try to kill him, finding excuses not to, each and every time.\n \n(Agia does slap Severian, tearing his cheek. This could be a mythological reference to the ancient goddess\nAchlys, daughter of Nyx) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3DABB4.9090805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-24T16:41:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: The idea was that most people of the Commonwealth thought the Ascians were from the equator and had no idea that they were from much further north. Of course, the name also\nimplies that they are in darkness (\"no shadow\"); rejecting the light of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee-\nI would disagree that the name implies dwelling in darkness. Being shadowless at the equator implies\none is in such direct, overhead sunlight that no shadow is formed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I think the term is ironic, but I get why you don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Agia does slap Severian, tearing his cheek. This could be a mythological reference to the ancient goddess\nAchlys, daughter of Nyx) \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm...what a nice obscure reference. I like it!\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<783EAE91-BFB5-4B98-B9FC-C5D18CBAFEB3@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-24T18:06:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 24, 2011, at 8:24 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI would disagree that the name implies dwelling in darkness. Being shadowless at the equator implies\none is in such direct, overhead sunlight that no shadow is formed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's \"Magical\" reasoning, like blinding the Cock that Crows the sun.\nSo, No Shadow = No Light.\nIt doesn't compute rationaly, only in terms of magical symbolism." } ] }, { "message_id": "<11D6245C-94E1-4A9C-B646-E8EFD472EEF0@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-24T18:10:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 24, 2011, at 8:24 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nHm...you know...it just occurs to me...It is part of my growing hypothesis that Hethor (the true\nboss of the partnership) never wanted to kill Severian, just test his abilities. Could the slug\nhave been used by Hethor BECAUSE Severian was in real danger of losing and being killed by the jungle\nsorcerers? The timing is awfully suspicious to think the slug was intended to kill Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly.\nHethor spurs him on more than anything else. The Circle of the Sorcerors and the slug is a good example of that. And the Salamander provides a good distraction for his escape, even though he blunders right into engaging with it.\nHethor is also morally repugnant to Severian, as he contextualizes him with the group that takes an unhealthy pleasure from the executions. This perverse enjoyment is repulsive to Severian, giving him more reason to put torture behind him." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-24T20:36:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<783EAE91-BFB5-4B98-B9FC-C5D18CBAFEB3@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son of Witz wrote:\nI would disagree that the name implies dwelling in darkness. Being shadowless at the equator implies\none is in such direct, overhead sunlight that no shadow is formed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's \"Magical\" reasoning, like blinding the Cock that Crows the sun.\nSo, No Shadow = No Light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree; the Ascians are the \"people who live in darkness\" despite\nliving in the brightest sunlight of the Old Sun, which is the sun of\ndarkness.\n\n(I wonder whether there are any surviving Ascians in Ushas -- we are\nonly shown a very small bit of the new world, after all.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-24T20:52:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son O'Witz: It's \"Magical\" reasoning, like blinding the Cock that Crows the sun.\nSo, No Shadow = No Light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: I agree; the Ascians are the \"people who live in darkness\" despite\nliving in the brightest sunlight of the Old Sun, which is the sun of\ndarkness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't have an objection to this interpretation. My main point is that if the shadowy,\njungle-dwelling, individualist sorcerers are against the coming of the New Sun, it may be that their \nopposites, the brightly-lit, field-dwelling, communistic Ascians and their bosses may\nbe for it.\n \nAh, probably not such an important point, anyway.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<585FED5036854AB49471633402A818D5@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-25T17:13:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn: I concede that my use of the term Dollo's Law to cover \ngeneral principles of\nevolutionary irreversibility was incorrect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it makes intuitive sense. Mixing up gene combinations is essential \nfor survival of\na gene line allowing organismal adaptability. Sexual creatures do it, but \neven most asexual\norganisms, including bacteria, have various means of swapping genetic \nmaterial with each other.\n\nIrreversibility is a huge evolutionary red flag. It will most often lead \nto extinction. If a\ngene line finds itself on an irreversible path of change it is a huge risk \n(since the original\nform was obviously a successful one in a given environment- changed \nenvironments usually change\nback). So irreversibility is a rare exception while reversibility is the \nrule." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may to individual genes or structures over short timescales (with large \nchanges over long timescales Dollo's Law does apply and irreversibility is \nthe rule, not the exception). It cannot reasonably be explected to apply to \nparticular patterns or constellations of traits, because the number of \npossible patterns is enormous, and few environments impose selective \npressures so strong as to preclude all but one possibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was never about skin colour. [Nor is skin colour especially \nsusceptible\nto biased thinking, in my opinion. The notion that those who believe in\nracial differences are hypnotised by an obsession with skin colour is a\npopular straw man which has little basis in truth.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps I've been dense about the undertones of this discussion but I'm \nnot really sure what you\nmean by \"those who believe in racial differences\" and the lack of \nimportance of skin color. What\nIS important to those who believe in racial differences?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was merely responding to your assertion that \"among visible human \nfeatures, surely none is more subject to biased thinking than skin color\". \nRace is (almost) invariably identified by multiple traits, of which skin \ncolour is just one. [I seem to recall some so-called research in which skin \ncolour was used as the sole proxy for race, but I suspect these studies were \nfor the most part bogus science intended for propaganda purposes.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, my hypothethical Swedish tribe migrating to Africa would develop a \nunique\nappearance; they would adapt to increased solar radiation, but not in\nexactly the same way as other groups living in the same place have \nadapted.\nBy the same token, a tribe of Yoruba migrating to Sweden would, after\nadaptation, still look noticeably different from the current Swedish\npopulation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I think you continue to miss is that there is no \"exactly the same \nway\" groups of humans\nadapt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How can I be \"continuing to miss\" exactly what I am saying???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There was no \"original color\" of Africans. There was always and will \nalways be a range.\nThe color range of Africans today is not the color range of Africans \n50,000 years ago. And it\nwill be a different range, 50,000 years hence.\n\nIf you took a sample tribe of Swedes and isolated them *in Sweden* or did \nthe same for a group\nof Yoruba *in Africa* and gave them 1 million years of (hypothetical of \ncourse) complete isolation\nboth groups would differ significantly from their non-isolated neighbors \nof the both past and that\nfuture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that is certainly so. But do you doubt that if you took a tribe of \nSwedes and a tribe of Yoruba, and isolated each under isolated conditions, \nthey would, even after adapting well to the local environment, look \ndifferent? [Indeed, I think if you took two tribes of each, you would end \nup with four distinguishable peoples.]\n\nThat is an example of irreversibility, although it is not an example of \nDollo's Law. I think such irreversibility is the rule, not the exception." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your hypothesis is staged under unnatural conditions. Under natural \nconditions, admixture is an\nessential part of the composition of a gene pool. Even for bacteria. It \nreduces irreversibility,\nwhich is necessary as explained above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most scientific experiments are conducted under unnatural conditions, and \nmost thought experiments even more so. It does not render them invalid. \nHere we are conducting a thought experiment with regard to the determination \nof a \"natural country type\". The theory of \"natural country types\" would \npredict that the two or four tribes in our gedanken would come to look \nalike.\n\nAlso, you have an exaggerated idea of the extent to which occasional gene \ntransfer acts to induce homogeneity in a population, whether natural or \nexperimental. The failure to detect Neanderthal genes among Yoruba and San \nis an example of how substantial inhomogeneity can persist and grow within a \nsingle species." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That doesn't mean that Swedes don't have genes in their population - \nwhether omnipresent but suppressed\nby regulatory genes or simply at low frequency - for dark skin, flat \nnoses, curly hair, and any other\ntraits that may be adaptive in tropical conditions. It means that even if \nSwedish versions of such genes\nare enhanced in the population, they won't be exactly the same versions in \nthe same proportions that are\nenhanced in other populations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are noses, hair shape and other tropical adaptive traits, the ones which \nare more important than skin\ncolor to those who believe in racial differences?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Along with skin colour, they are among the most commonly known signifiers of \nrace, certainly. (Specialists such as forensic anthropologists will \nrecognise many more.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There isn't such a thing as a \"Swedish version\" of a gene. While gene \npools are mercurial, genes are not.\nChanging one single base code among tens of millions on the gene for \ninsulin is what makes people diabetic.\nGenes are copied faithfully person to person. Mutations are almost always \nharmful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not true. Here, for example, is Wikipedia on the subject of alleles:\n\"It is now appreciated that most or all gene loci are highly polymorphic, \nwith multiple alleles, whose frequencies vary from population to population, \nand that a great deal of genetic variation is hidden in the form of alleles \nthat do not produce obvious phenotypic differences.\"\n\nWe may safely asssume that certain alleles are common in Sweden and rare in \nAfrica, and vice versa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However, I still think a form of evolutionary irreversibility will apply \nsuch that there can never be a \"natural\ncountry type\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't understand what you are arguing. If evolution were irreversible \nwouldn't that argue FOR a \"natuaral\ncountry type\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, quite the opposite! Consider a population that is adapted to country A, \nthen moves to country B and adapts to it. Now assume they move back to \ncountry A, in which conditions have not changed. If there is a natural \ncountry type, they should revert to their original form. If evolution is \nirreversible, that cannot happen.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-25T20:24:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<585FED5036854AB49471633402A818D5@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry we are a bit closer to understanding on these issues. I misunderstood what you were\ngetting at with \"natural country type\". I thought you meant there could be no prevalent \nvariation of a gene in a certain region. Now I understand you are arguing that there is more\nthan one possible adaptation that can help a population to live in a given environment. And\nof course that is true. Large body size, Hunter's response, brown adipose tissue, epicanthic\nfolds, large nose, light skin; all these have been argued as cold weather adaptations in humans\nand a given population in a cold environment can have any of them (though I don't know of any\nwhich have all of them in high frequency).\n \nA couple misundertandings on your part: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Genes are copied faithfully person to person. Mutations are almost always harmful" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not true. Here, for example, is Wikipedia on the subject of alleles:\"It is now appreciated that most \nor all gene loci are highly polymorphic, with multiple alleles, whose frequencies vary from population \nto population, and that a great deal of genetic variation is hidden in the form of alleles \nthat do not produce obvious phenotypic differences.\">" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFirst it should be understood that \"allele\" is not a synonym for \"gene\". An allele is defined as a gene\nvariant. Second it should be understood that \"phenotype\" refers to the outward expression of a gene.\n \nSo, Wikipedia is saying that there can be a lot of gene variation where the difference doesn't DO \nanything. This relates to the idea of \"junk DNA\". If a gene is not expressed, it it not subject to\nnatural selection. It can just sit there and be copied or mutated from generation to generation and it \ndoesn't matter.\n \nWith certain traits which don't have a selection pressure on them, like eye color or blood type, there\nare various alleles like blue/brown or A-B-O. But for stuff that matters, like the code for insulin or\nthe code for having 5 fingers alternate alleles (diabetes and 6 fingers) are selected against and are\nrare.\n \nBut this is not what we are talking about. We are talking about high frequency genes which have obvious \nphenotypic effects and which are subject to selection and, as a result, show regional variation in \nfrequency like skin color (btw, there is probably no adaptive advantage to blue eyes and blonde hair;\nthey are just accidental by-products of the gene for low melanin production in the dermis). There is no\n\"African\" melanin or \"Swedish\" melanin\" or \"Turkish\" melanin or whatever. It is the same pigment in all\nhumans (and many other animals as well). There is no irreversible variant of melanin that will make one\npopulation of humans forever different than others.\n \nAnyway, those are just side issues. The main issue you are not getting is that there can be no inherent \n\"irreversibility\" of gene frequency within a species. By definition it is not possible because \nthe potential for admixture exists. With admixture and selection, any particular gene in a regional\npopulation of a species can go from 0% to 100% and back to 0% as long as the gene exists somewhere\non earth for that species.\n \nYou can't argue that artificially isolating a group of Swedes and a group of Africans in a cage for\ninfinity years constitutes an example of Dollo's Law of irreversibility. It makes no sense. A scientific \nlaw must describe what happens in nature. It must have an element of predictability. For your experiment \nto create irreversibility your caged individuals must become different species. So different that there is \nnever a possibility of interbreeding. This has already been discussed and it must be understood or there is\nno point in discussion.\n \nI get the impression you were hoping Dollo's Law might make it impossible for lighter skinned people to\never look like their African ancestors even if global warming turns the whole planet into a tropical\nrain forest or something like that. It just isn't the case. As long as we remain one, potentially \ninterbreeding species, it is possible for the whole of humanity to end up falling anywhere in the range of \nthe spectrum of variability. We could all become light skinned, all dark skinned, all curly haired, all \nstraight haired, all blue eyed, all brown eyed, etc.\n \nI think Chances are highest that our diverse genome will maintain a diverse outer appearance but there is \nno way to know what the future selection pressure will be. No way to know which genes will get turned on\nwhich will get turned off nor in what frequency. But as long as we remain one species there is no\nirreversibility.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<62695008-28CD-4602-8BF5-8C178934068B@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-25T22:03:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/01/25, ?s 20:24, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, Wikipedia is saying that there can be a lot of gene variation \nwhere the difference doesn't DO\nanything. This relates to the idea of \"junk DNA\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, they are saying that there\nmay be different alleles which produce a similar phenotype. They are \ntalking about expressed DNA. It's not a matter of having a couple of \ndifferent bases which make no difference on the result. The coded \nproteins may differ in structure yet not in function. \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-25T22:56:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "<62695008-28CD-4602-8BF5-8C178934068B@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Entonio: No, they are saying that there may be different alleles which produce a \nsimilar phenotype. They are talking about expressed DNA. It's not a matter of \nhaving a couple of different bases which make no difference on the result. The coded \nproteins may differ in structure yet not in function. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI understand what you are saying but it is a different question being addressed.\n \nThe Wikipedia quote Gerry cited was: \n \n\"a great deal of genetic variation is hidden in the form of alleles that do not produce \nobvious phenotypic differences.\"\n \nWe are talking about a principle of natural selection and evolution. Natural selection\ncan only act on phenotype. And if there is no \"obvious difference\" between two phenotypes\nthe difference is invisible to natural selection. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D339591DE1B4859A5361D4BE09D4FD9@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-26T01:27:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \n\nGerry we are a bit closer to understanding on these issues. I \nmisunderstood what you were\ngetting at with \"natural country type\". I thought you meant there could be \nno prevalent\nvariation of a gene in a certain region. Now I understand you are arguing \nthat there is more\nthan one possible adaptation that can help a population to live in a given \nenvironment. And\nof course that is true. Large body size, Hunter's response, brown adipose \ntissue, epicanthic\nfolds, large nose, light skin; all these have been argued as cold weather \nadaptations in humans\nand a given population in a cold environment can have any of them (though \nI don't know of any\nwhich have all of them in high frequency)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. Different peoples migrating to a country would have different \ngenetic capacities for such adaptations; combined with random chance this \nwould result in various possibilities, rather than a specific type that \nwould be forced by the conditions of a particular country." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A couple misundertandings on your part:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There isn't such a thing as a \"Swedish version\" of a gene. While gene \npools are mercurial, genes are not.\nChanging one single base code among tens of millions on the gene for \ninsulin is what makes people diabetic.\nGenes are copied faithfully person to person. Mutations are almost always \nharmful" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not true. Here, for example, is Wikipedia on the subject of alleles:\"It \nis now appreciated that most\nor all gene loci are highly polymorphic, with multiple alleles, whose \nfrequencies vary from population\nto population, and that a great deal of genetic variation is hidden in the \nform of alleles\nthat do not produce obvious phenotypic differences.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First it should be understood that \"allele\" is not a synonym for \"gene\". \nAn allele is defined as a gene\nvariant. Second it should be understood that \"phenotype\" refers to the \noutward expression of a gene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An allele is a gene variant, yes, originating presumably in a mutation. \nAlleles vary from population to population. Alleles which are frequent in \nSweden but rare elsewhere can reasonably be described as Swedish versions of \ngenes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, Wikipedia is saying that there can be a lot of gene variation where \nthe difference doesn't DO\nanything. This relates to the idea of \"junk DNA\". If a gene is not \nexpressed, it it not subject to\nnatural selection. It can just sit there and be copied or mutated from \ngeneration to generation and it\ndoesn't matter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wikipedia is saying nothing of the sort. They are not talking about junk \nDNA." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With certain traits which don't have a selection pressure on them, like \neye color or blood type, there\nare various alleles like blue/brown or A-B-O. But for stuff that matters, \nlike the code for insulin or\nthe code for having 5 fingers alternate alleles (diabetes and 6 fingers) \nare selected against and are\nrare." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What makes you think there is no selection pressure on blood types or eye \ncolour? As for insulin, the insulion molecule itself is a small peptide \nwhich seems to be highly conserved, but there are certainly common allele \nvariants in regulatory genes related to it. (Incidentally, the prevalence \nof these varies with race.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this is not what we are talking about. We are talking about high \nfrequency genes which have obvious\nphenotypic effects and which are subject to selection and, as a result, \nshow regional variation in\nfrequency like skin color (btw, there is probably no adaptive advantage to \nblue eyes and blonde hair;\nthey are just accidental by-products of the gene for low melanin \nproduction in the dermis). There is no\n\"African\" melanin or \"Swedish\" melanin\" or \"Turkish\" melanin or whatever. \nIt is the same pigment in all\nhumans (and many other animals as well). There is no irreversible variant \nof melanin that will make one\npopulation of humans forever different than others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First, you are leaping from \"no obvious phenotypic effects\" to \"no \nphenotypic effects\". Probably many if not most alleles have subtle \nphenotypic effects.\n\nSecond, melanin is emphatically *not* a single molecule - it is a complex \npolymer with thousands of variations. There are three main types in humans. \nIt seems reasonable to assume that the exact type produced will vary \naccordsing to allele combinations of melanin-related genes.\n\nI don't know what you mean by \"irreversible variant of melanin\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, those are just side issues. The main issue you are not getting is \nthat there can be no inherent\n\"irreversibility\" of gene frequency within a species. By definition it is \nnot possible because\nthe potential for admixture exists. With admixture and selection, any \nparticular gene in a regional\npopulation of a species can go from 0% to 100% and back to 0% as long as \nthe gene exists somewhere\non earth for that species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's irrelevant. The issue is whether a particular *constellation* of \nalleles can be replicated with finite probability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can't argue that artificially isolating a group of Swedes and a group \nof Africans in a cage for\ninfinity years constitutes an example of Dollo's Law of irreversibility. \nIt makes no sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I *already stated* that I was incorrect to describe the form of \nevolutionarey irreversibility I am talking about in terms of Dollo's Law." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A scientific\nlaw must describe what happens in nature. It must have an element of \npredictability. For your experiment\nto create irreversibility your caged individuals must become different \nspecies. So different that there is\nnever a possibility of interbreeding. This has already been discussed and \nit must be understood or there is\nno point in discussion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They do *not* have to become different species or be unable to interbreed to \ncreate irreversibility of the sort I am describing. I agree that a single \nallele if strongly selected for could go from around 0% to around100% and \nback again. That does not mean that is is statistically feasible to recover \na particular constellation of traits controlled by many genes all with \nvariant alleles. If you put a tribe of Swedes or Yoruba in a cage and \nsubject them to selective pressures so that they adapt to their new \nenvironment, then even if you change the conditions back to those of Sweden \nor Yorubaland, the original allele frequencies and the constellations of \ntraits they govern will not be recoverable. They will never again be \nexactly like the original Swedes or Yoruba. This is a form of evolutionary \nirreversibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I get the impression you were hoping Dollo's Law might make it impossible \nfor lighter skinned people to\never look like their African ancestors even if global warming turns the \nwhole planet into a tropical\nrain forest or something like that. It just isn't the case. As long as we \nremain one, potentially\ninterbreeding species, it is possible for the whole of humanity to end up \nfalling anywhere in the range of\nthe spectrum of variability. We could all become light skinned, all dark \nskinned, all curly haired, all\nstraight haired, all blue eyed, all brown eyed, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How many times do I have to repeat that I am not talking about Dollo's Law? \nDo you even read the posts you respond to? But yes, no current people will \never come to look exactly like the African ancestors of humans. While any \nsingle gene could revert to ancestral forms, it is a statistical \nimpossibility for large numbers of genes to revert together. Thus, a form \nof irreversibility.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3C51C604C28C45FE9CDFDB5A06D15E8B@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-26T01:30:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mystery of Ascia", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Entonio: No, they are saying that there may be different alleles which \nproduce a\nsimilar phenotype. They are talking about expressed DNA. It's not a \nmatter of\nhaving a couple of different bases which make no difference on the \nresult. The coded\nproteins may differ in structure yet not in function." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I understand what you are saying but it is a different question being \naddressed.\n\nThe Wikipedia quote Gerry cited was:\n\n\"a great deal of genetic variation is hidden in the form of alleles that \ndo not produce\nobvious phenotypic differences.\"\n\nWe are talking about a principle of natural selection and evolution. \nNatural selection\ncan only act on phenotype. And if there is no \"obvious difference\" between \ntwo phenotypes\nthe difference is invisible to natural selection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nonsense. Natural selection can operate on quite subtle differences, not \njust obvious ones.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] } ] }