{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5942", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5942, "subject": "Home Fires and Chelle ** SPOILERS **", "messages": 8, "voices": 6, "first": "2011-01-25T22:27:11+00:00", "last": "2011-07-29T12:01:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-25T22:27:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and Chelle ** SPOILERS **", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nI have just read \"Home Fires\" and I was wondering what others thought of\nit. Much is explained, but there are several points left as mysteries. One\nis the true relationship between Chelle Blue and Jane Sims. Another is\nCharlie. In the last few lines we have:\n\n\"I'm going on Charlie's picnic, out of the smoke and the dirt, away from\nMick and the bottles behind the bar, and all the gray faces. I'm going away,\nand I'm not coming back.\n\nThey'll tell me when you do, and I'll be there.\"\n\nWhat does it mean that she's going on Charlie's picnic and not coming back?\n" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had the same kinds of question. Plus one other: Why was Rick so determined\nto kill Chelle?\n\nOn another tack, \"Sea shell\" is surely some kind of literary shadow-cousin\nto Seawrack. Not the same character, obviously, but both lost a left arm,\nboth attached to older men." } ] }, { "message_id": "<89FEA48F-E248-494A-8708-6EA291E7C829@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-25T22:35:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and Chelle ** SPOILERS **", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not reading these posts, but I'd like to know if you enjoyed the book on a basic entertainment level at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 25, 2011, at 2:27 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\n\nOn Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nI have just read \"Home Fires\" and I was wondering what others thought of it. Much is explained, but there are several points left as mysteries. One is the true relationship between Chelle Blue and Jane Sims. Another is Charlie. In the last few lines we have:\n\n\"I'm going on Charlie's picnic, out of the smoke and the dirt, away from Mick and the bottles behind the bar, and all the gray faces. I'm going away, and I'm not coming back.\n\nThey'll tell me when you do, and I'll be there.\"\n\nWhat does it mean that she's going on Charlie's picnic and not coming back? \n \nI had the same kinds of question. Plus one other: Why was Rick so determined to kill Chelle?\n \nOn another tack, \"Sea shell\" is surely some kind of literary shadow-cousin to Seawrack. Not the same character, obviously, but both lost a left arm, both attached to older men.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3F55AE.7030008@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2011-01-25T22:58:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and Chelle ** SPOILERS **", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 25/01/11 22:27, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\nOn another tack, \"Sea shell\" is surely some kind of literary shadow-cousin\nto Seawrack. Not the same character, obviously, but both lost a left arm,\nboth attached to older men.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seawrack lost her RIGHT arm, amputated just below the shoulder by \nmysterious means (“some kind of sea-creature” an inhumi? her adoptive \n'mother', trying to cling to her? what?). Also I don't see where it is \ndemonstrated that Seawrack is younger than Horn at the time they first \nmeet, please correct me if you know.\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-26T00:53:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and Chelle ** SPOILERS **", "in_reply_to": "<4D3F55AE.7030008@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Jane Delawney wrote:\n On 25/01/11 22:27, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\nOn another tack, \"Sea shell\" is surely some kind of literary shadow-cousin\nto Seawrack. Not the same character, obviously, but both lost a left arm,\nboth attached to older men.\n\n\nSeawrack lost her RIGHT arm, amputated just below the shoulder" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops! You're right. Anyway, they've both lost an arm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "by mysterious means (“some kind of sea-creature” an inhumi? her adoptive\n'mother', trying to cling to her? what?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's pretty clear that Babbie did it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also I don't see where it is demonstrated that Seawrack is younger than\nHorn at the time they first meet, please correct me if you know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely she was younger. Horn must be in his mid/late thirties at this point;\nhumans have only been on Blue for ~20 years. But I was thinking really of\nSilk, the one she departs with in the end, for the age thing.\n\nAnyway, to the extent it means anything at all, I think it has most to do\nwith contrasts between the two women and their situations." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-26T01:06:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and Chelle ** SPOILERS **", "in_reply_to": "<89FEA48F-E248-494A-8708-6EA291E7C829@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nI'm not reading these posts, but I'd like to know if you enjoyed the book\non a basic entertainment level at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did, with caveats. I read it mainly as a \"character\" novel, rather than a\n\"plot\" novel. That's fine for me, but while some of the character work is\npretty good, Wolfe really isn't top-notch as a character writer, IMO (Having\nbeen on a heavy Trollope diet for a while, I'm spoiled in this regard). The\nworld and plot \"furniture\" all has a slightly recycled feeling; if you\ndidn't know better, it'd be easy to guess that it was one of those dystopian\nfuture novels from the 1970's.\n\nOverall, I'd say not as enjoyable as Sorcerer's House, but more\nenjoyable than the first half of AEG (ie, before the beautiful writing of\nthe second half kicks in and the deli sandwiches disappear)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2011-01-26T02:01:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and Chelle ** SPOILERS **", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr. Thalassocrat wrote:\nI had the same kinds of question. Plus one other: Why was Rick so\ndetermined" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "to kill Chelle?\n\n\nMy theory is revenge. Rick may have been uploaded with a scan of Master\nSergeant Mort Pununto, the spy Chelle killed. He was the best noncom she\never had. A good officer (promoted from the ranks) and an talented spy would\nbe valuable skills for a cyborg to possess, whether he spied for the EU or\nthe Os. When Mort was caught as a spy Chelle was the only member of the\nfiring squad to aim to hit him, so she was directly responsible for his\ndeath. I see little other reason for Wolfe to have included this otherwise\ncompletely extraneous story in detail." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-29T02:08:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and Chelle ** SPOILERS **", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nMy theory is revenge. Rick may have been uploaded with a scan of Master\nSergeant Mort Pununto, the spy Chelle killed. He was the best noncom she\never had. A good officer (promoted from the ranks) and an talented spy would\nbe valuable skills for a cyborg to possess, whether he spied for the EU or\nthe Os. When Mort was caught as a spy Chelle was the only member of the\nfiring squad to aim to hit him, so she was directly responsible for his\ndeath. I see little other reason for Wolfe to have included this otherwise\ncompletely extraneous story in detail." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think one reason Wolfe includes this detail is to give us a little insight\ninto Chelle's mental state; when first we hear of Mort, we just hear that\nChelle shot him. We don't learn that she was in a firing squad until the\nlast page of the book.\n\nOf course, if we want to introduce crazy conspiracy theories (we know\nthey'll come out eventually), we could cast some doubt on Mort's existence.\nIsn't it strange, after all, that the dead spy is named \"Mort?\"\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-07-29T12:01:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and Chelle ** SPOILERS **", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 26 Jan 2011, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\nI had the same kinds of question. Plus one other: Why was Rick so determined\nto kill Chelle?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only just finished reading this (twice, of course ;)).\n\nWhen Skip asks \"I know the information you wanted from Chelle...Have you \ngot it\", Johnson replies \"I've got it, and I won't forget it\". So, he has \nno reason to keep Chelle alive as a witness, and possible source of \ninformation for the EU.\n\nAbout the calendar, Day 180 of the financial/fiscal year might still be \nwintery (29th March). So instead of starting on the 4th July, 1st Oct.\nThere are still weeks. Skip's offices are in the Union Day Building, so \nthis might be Day 1 of the year. In the last chapter, we can't work out \nwhether Skip's OTC took just 3 weeks, as his description implies; Spring \nwas skipped, going straight to Summer. I'm too lazy at the moment to do a \ntime line, but the story would run roughly from March to June.\n\n\"five-letter word for jaguar\": ounce? \"el tigre\"?\n\nAbout Chelle, said \"shell\", an obvious origin would be as a diminutive of \nMichelle. Being Wolfe, perhaps the Wikipedian gloss of Michael/Michelle \nas \"[in] Talmudic tradition, interpreted as a rhetorical question: 'Who is \nlike God?'\", and as the military leader of the angels. Plus, Mick and \nChelle hook up towards the end.\n\nI wondered too if, just as G Gordon Liddy makes appearances in other \nbooks, whether Charles C. Blue was somehow Charles Colson?\n\nAlbano Alamar: Alamar=\"to the sea\", where of course he ends up.\n\nEven though it's an \"easy\" Wolfe, there are a few mysteries. Was there a \nspecific reason why Chelle divorced her parents, or was it just that they \nalways told her what to do? Was she genetically modified, like so many \nother Wolfe protagonists? Should we recognize a particular mythical \nfigure with a resurrected mother and tricky father? Are the enemy \"O\"'s, \nor Bones? Are the energy and water shortages due to the costs of \ninterstellar war, rather than purely overpopulation/resource depletion? \nWho does Charles Blue dress like (striped seersucker suit, white socks and \nwingtips, blue tie with red animal [lion rampant?]? Is he Colonel \nSanders?\n\nJust 2c, David Duffy." } ] } ] }