{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5945", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5945, "subject": "Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-01-26T16:55:22+00:00", "last": "2011-02-03T01:10:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2011-01-26T16:55:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In \"Home Fires\" there is never a mention of months or month names. There are\ndays, weeks, hundred-days, and years. What sort of calendar reform is this?\nAsimov proposed a uniform calendar abolishing the old months, with 91 days\nper period. Four of these gives 364 days, a reasonable fit with the solar\nyear. But four hundred-days is 400, which seems unreasonable. Does this\ncalendar just let the years fall where they may? It seems impractical for\nthings like birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries (none of these things are\nmentioned within the story).\n\nThe solar year is slowly getting longer, but it takes centuries to add\nminutes. This story doesn't seem to be set that far in the future. One\npossibility is that uniformity for business purposes has trumped all other\npractical considerations. Possibly it was mandated by the power-mad\npoliticians. Or it may be another separation of religion and state, like the\ncontracts replacing marriage. Religious holidays would be observed based on\nseasons and solstices, not a particular day of the year." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D40DD5B.1030304@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-27T02:50:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/26/2011 10:55 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nIn \"Home Fires\" there is never a mention of months or month names. There\nare days, weeks, hundred-days, and years. What sort of calendar reform\nis this? Asimov proposed a uniform calendar abolishing the old months,\nwith 91 days per period. Four of these gives 364 days, a reasonable fit\nwith the solar year. But four hundred-days is 400, which seems\nunreasonable. Does this calendar just let the years fall where they may?\n It seems impractical for things like birthdays, holidays, and\nanniversaries (none of these things are mentioned within the story).\n\nThe solar year is slowly getting longer, but it takes centuries to add\nminutes. This story doesn't seem to be set that far in the future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read it yet, but isn't it a story with lots of time spent \nisolated from earth, on top of the time dilation, similar to THE FOREVER \nWAR? Earth's calendar would become irrelevant while away, but \nprovisioning would depend on the subjective time endured; \nhundred-man-day units is good for estimation and logistical bundling, \nwhere a day's consumables are 1500 minutes worth of oxygen, three hot \nmeals, and 5 kilos of water." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-27T02:50:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:25 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nIn \"Home Fires\" there is never a mention of months or month names. There\nare days, weeks, hundred-days, and years. What sort of calendar reform is\nthis? Asimov proposed a uniform calendar abolishing the old months, with 91\ndays per period. Four of these gives 364 days, a reasonable fit with the\nsolar year. But four hundred-days is 400, which seems unreasonable. Does\nthis calendar just let the years fall where they may? It seems impractical\nfor things like birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries (none of these things\nare mentioned within the story).\n\nThe solar year is slowly getting longer, but it takes centuries to add\nminutes. This story doesn't seem to be set that far in the future. One\npossibility is that uniformity for business purposes has trumped all other\npractical considerations. Possibly it was mandated by the power-mad\npoliticians. Or it may be another separation of religion and state, like the\ncontracts replacing marriage. Religious holidays would be observed based on\nseasons and solstices, not a particular day of the year." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it's a separation-from-nature thing. Societies destroying themselves\nby cutting themselves off from nature is a faitrly common trope for Wolfe.\nAbandoning a calendar based on natural cycles fits with this, I suppose." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T00:19:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Thalassocrat wrote:\n\nPerhaps it's a separation-from-nature thing. Societies destroying themselves" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "by cutting themselves off from nature is a fairly common trope for Wolfe.\nAbandoning a calendar based on natural cycles fits with this, I suppose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I found another clue -- Chelle's arrival day is specified as Day 180.\nThis suggests all days in the year are simply numbered from 1 to 400.\nThere is no need for hundred-day period names, because they can easily\nbe worked out from the top digit.\n\nIt's clear that there's no synchronization with the seasons. Day 180\nis clearly in winter, and for us it would be around the end of June.\nProbably years are measured in cycles of 400 days, so all ages should\nbe inflated by a factor of about 13/12. The system is absolutely,\nchillingly logical and human-centric, completely cut off from nature." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6B9202FE-EA3C-45D3-B515-91C9D3816E26@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Darth Ed", "address": "darthed77 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-02T05:21:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI found another clue -- Chelle's arrival day is specified as Day 180.\nThis suggests all days in the year are simply numbered from 1 to 400.\nThere is no need for hundred-day period names, because they can easily\nbe worked out from the top digit.\n\nIt's clear that there's no synchronization with the seasons. Day 180\nis clearly in winter, and for us it would be around the end of June.\nProbably years are measured in cycles of 400 days, so all ages should\nbe inflated by a factor of about 13/12. The system is absolutely,\nchillingly logical and human-centric, completely cut off from nature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi, Dave. While I agree that the 100-day billing period for rent is\nsuggestive, I think it's a bit of a stretch to make the leap to 400-day\nyears. It just doesn't seem very pragmatic. And, if humanity were going to\ndeviate from a solar-based calendar system, why choose 400? Why not 1000?\n10 periods of 100 days each. Probably have 10 days in a \"week\" with 10 of\nthose per 100-day period. I.e., the metric calendar system. That seems just\nas likely.\n\nAnyway, I have another theory regarding the _Home Fires_ calendar, one that\nisn't wholly incompatible with yours, I think. As I was re-reading chapter\n1, the opening scene got me thinking. It's snowing outside, and, when Skip\nwakes up, there's a gift of sorts waiting for him. Could this be\nChristmas???\n\nLater that morning, the waitress says that Chelle will be returning \"this\ncoming Saturday\" on day 180. Common usage of the phrase \"this coming\nSaturday\" leads me to believe that the book opens on day 175 +/- 1 day.\n(Most people would not use \"this coming\" to specify a day unless it was 4-6\ndays way.) So, if Christmas is day 175, then that would mean day 1 is the\nFourth of July, which would make sense for a North American Union dominated\nby the former USA. The \"NAU\" name is probably just window dressing for the\nUnited States essentially occupying the other North American regions\nanyway. (David Foster Wallace does something similar in _Infinite Jest_.)\nPerhaps 1776 is also year 1 in this Gregorian-derived calendar system. All\nof this could be seen as evidence of secularization and extreme nationalism\nin this future society.\n\nWhere my theory possibly breaks down is that the rest of the world surely\nwouldn't adopt such a calendar system and it doesn't seem likely there\nwouldn't be a commonly accepted calendar system used by the whole world.\n\nLater,\nDarth Ed\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Profiles.DarthEd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2011-02-02T07:45:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "in_reply_to": "<6B9202FE-EA3C-45D3-B515-91C9D3816E26@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Darth Ed wrote:\nHi, Dave. While I agree that the 100-day billing period for rent is\nsuggestive, I think it's a bit of a stretch to make the leap to 400-day\nyears. It just doesn't seem very pragmatic. And, if humanity were going to\ndeviate from a solar-based calendar system, why choose 400? Why not 1000? 10\nperiods of 100 days each. Probably have 10 days in a \"week\" with 10 of those\nper 100-day period. I.e., the metric calendar system. That seems just as\nlikely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is more evidence that fits my theory. Johnson says he held a job for\n\"200 days or so, about half a year.\" That looks like either the old 365 or\nmy 400, not 1000. They still use week-day names, so likely the seven day\nweek is still around. Business likes to work in quarters of a year, so I\nstand by 400.\n\nAnyway, I have another theory regarding the _Home Fires_ calendar, one that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "isn't wholly incompatible with yours, I think. As I was re-reading chapter\n1, the opening scene got me thinking. It's snowing outside, and, when Skip\nwakes up, there's a gift of sorts waiting for him. Could this be\nChristmas???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only \"gift\" is the announcement that Chelle is coming home. If it's\nChristmas, it's also a work-day and nobody says \"Merry Christmas\" or\nanything. Based on the travel plans Skip makes, the date must be 178, so the\nFourth of July doesn't work (a very clever idea, though). It's extremely\nlikely that the year numbering was restarted with this calendar change.\n\nSkip tells Sally he wants a suite reservation near the port for \"the day\nafter tomorrow\" which must be for what he expects will be a reunion night\nwith Chelle. He gets it for one night only, and that must be for day 180.\nHis 34-hour bullet train trip, leaving no later than 20:00, is compatible\nwith this. It would get him to the port no later than 06:00 on 180. So\neven if \"this coming Saturday\" is a little odd for the waitress to say, it\nhas to be only two days away." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5CAE8525-298C-4D20-AB75-1A43CE973605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Darth Ed", "address": "darthed77 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-02T16:24:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only \"gift\" is the announcement that Chelle is coming home." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the perfect gift for a man who has everything (except his contract\npartner)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it's Christmas, it's also a work-day and nobody says \"Merry Christmas\"\nor anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course not. This future society is fully secularized. Instead of getting\nmarried, people get contracted, etc., so we shouldn't expect anyone to be\nsaying \"Merry Christmas\" or getting the day off from work. It's just another\nday to them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Skip tells Sally he wants a suite reservation near the port for \"the day\nafter tomorrow\" which must be for what he expects will be a reunion night\nwith Chelle. He gets it for one night only, and that must be for day 180.\nHis 34-hour bullet train trip, leaving no later than 20:00, is compatible\nwith this. It would get him to the port no later than 06:00 on 180. So\neven if \"this coming Saturday\" is a little odd for the waitress to say,\nit > has to be only two days away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right. I assumed they had arrived in Canam the day before (day 179).\nI meant to reexamine their travel schedule, but I didn't have the book\nhandy at the time. :-/\n\nLater,\nDarth Ed\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Profiles.DarthEd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T01:00:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "in_reply_to": "<5CAE8525-298C-4D20-AB75-1A43CE973605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Darth Ed wrote:\n\nOf course not. This future society is fully secularized. Instead of\ngetting married," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "people get contracted, etc., so we shouldn't expect anyone to be saying\n\"Merry Christmas\" or getting the day off from work. It's just another day\nto them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Christmas as a secular holiday has a lot of momentum, since gift-giving is a\nmajor boon to business. What could have killed that? Possibly the\nenergy-poor future would have seen it as an unnecessary waste of resources,\nand stopped the secular celebration." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T01:10:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires and calendar reform **SPOILERS**", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nChristmas as a secular holiday has a lot of momentum, since gift-giving is\na major boon to business. What could have killed that? Possibly the\nenergy-poor future would have seen it as an unnecessary waste of\nresources,and stopped the secular celebration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, there's evidence for the continued celebration of Christmas,\nbecause Chelle says to Mitch, \"I bet there's a company Christmas party.\"\nShe's flirtatiously suggesting that he'll see more of her even after she's\nsettled in as the contracta of the boss, but she wouldn't use this idea as\na cover if the possibility of such a party didn't exist." } ] } ] }