{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5946", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5946, "subject": "Merger", "messages": 117, "voices": 18, "first": "2011-01-28T18:50:54+00:00", "last": "2011-02-09T23:03:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-28T18:50:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Merriam-Webster (with apologies to OED preferers, but this one is free online)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a : the act or process of merging " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b : absorption by a corporation of one or more others; also : any of various methods of \ncombining two or more organizations " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps we can agree this definition fits what happens with the alzabo rather nicely?\n \n \nI think Dan'l's concern is over the temporary/permanent nature of the merger. If we go by\nwhat seems to happen with Vodalus' banquet we might think the merger is temporary perhaps\nwith only minor vestiges remaining.\n \nStill, as Severian does combat with the alzabo they have a conversation on \nstrategy which would seem to go beyond both Becan's and Severa's ressources. (yes, Becan\nwas a hunter, but my impression is that the battle savvy goes beyond this). I get the \nsense the alzabo has acquired a library of stored memories to draw upon, including a trained \nsoldier or assassin or something.\n \nThis is paralleled with Severian in UotNS I think. He is no longer plagued by spontaneous\ntakeovers by Thecla but I guess she is still there, just unneeded. The old Autarch pops up\nonce, but only at the appropriate time and need.\n \nI think the idea of a merger is pretty appropriate, a la Daimler-Chrysler. The larger company\ntook over the smaller one. There is a new merged identity though if there is confict the majority \npartner tends to have the merged corporation serve its needs above the minority partner.\nThus Becan is willing to let his family suffer pain, since the alzabo requires it. But, as\nothers noted, the alzabo is also willing to risk a lot to protect his/Becan/Severa's next \nmeal/family.\n \n(So how does this relate to Procter & Gamble? Did this corporation force Gene Wolfe and his\nfamily move from somewhere nice to the hellish outer urban areas of Chicago? [sorry Ryan ;- )].\n \nIt is pretty easy to see how the Autarchy and New Sun status of Severian/Thecla/old Autarch\nserves the needs of all three (throw Ymar in there if you like).\n \nSo, how does the merger of Horn/Silk/Neighbor do that? (Neighbor for James, though I like the\nidea also). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-28T19:41:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't there a difference in what happens to the 'memories' or 'identities'\nin Severian as opposed to everyone else, including the Alzabo? Sev has the\npower to restore life. I've always been fairly certain that for Severian,\nthe people he brings into himself are more alive, in a real way, than for\nany previous Autarch, or certainly and Vodellarii or ingesters of the\nalembic. Perhaps this plays a role in why Severian succeeds when Appian\nfails. Severian doesn't just have the memories of past lives in him, I\nthink they are really alive in him in a fundamental way, which is new,\nunique, and unseen in any other instance of ingestion of the Alembic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nFrom Merriam-Webster (with apologies to OED preferers, but this one is free\nonline)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "a : the act or process of merging" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "b : absorption by a corporation of one or more others; also : any of\nvarious methods of\ncombining two or more organizations" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps we can agree this definition fits what happens with the alzabo\nrather nicely?\n\n\nI think Dan'l's concern is over the temporary/permanent nature of the\nmerger. If we go by\nwhat seems to happen with Vodalus' banquet we might think the merger is\ntemporary perhaps\nwith only minor vestiges remaining.\n\nStill, as Severian does combat with the alzabo they have a conversation on\nstrategy which would seem to go beyond both Becan's and Severa's\nressources. (yes, Becan\nwas a hunter, but my impression is that the battle savvy goes beyond this).\nI get the\nsense the alzabo has acquired a library of stored memories to draw upon,\nincluding a trained\nsoldier or assassin or something.\n\nThis is paralleled with Severian in UotNS I think. He is no longer plagued\nby spontaneous\ntakeovers by Thecla but I guess she is still there, just unneeded. The old\nAutarch pops up\nonce, but only at the appropriate time and need.\n\nI think the idea of a merger is pretty appropriate, a la Daimler-Chrysler.\nThe larger company\ntook over the smaller one. There is a new merged identity though if there\nis confict the majority\npartner tends to have the merged corporation serve its needs above the\nminority partner.\nThus Becan is willing to let his family suffer pain, since the alzabo\nrequires it. But, as\nothers noted, the alzabo is also willing to risk a lot to protect\nhis/Becan/Severa's next\nmeal/family.\n\n(So how does this relate to Procter & Gamble? Did this corporation force\nGene Wolfe and his\nfamily move from somewhere nice to the hellish outer urban areas of\nChicago? [sorry Ryan ;- )].\n\nIt is pretty easy to see how the Autarchy and New Sun status of\nSeverian/Thecla/old Autarch\nserves the needs of all three (throw Ymar in there if you like).\n\nSo, how does the merger of Horn/Silk/Neighbor do that? (Neighbor for\nJames, though I like the\nidea also).\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-28T20:11:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Isn't it just as arguable that Becan was confused about the reasonableness of reuniting \nhis family in the animal and the used the animal fighting instincts as a tool to protect them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordon Flato: Isn't there a difference in what happens to the 'memories' or 'identities'\nin Severian as opposed to everyone else, including the Alzabo? Sev has the power to restore life...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI would say that there are three differences to be found in the text between Severian's fleshly \ningestion of the autarch and others' ingestions. One is, as you mention, that Severian's power of \nresurrection is likely coming into play, making the memory implant more substantial and permanent.\n \nAnother is the the analeptic or pharmacon or whatever it is called in the phial of the autarch is \nsuggested to be similar but superior to the alzabo extract. (I think it is likely a purified example\nof the same stuff- there is something fishy about even the autarch memory-sharing)\n \nThird is that the autarch specifically instructs Severian to eat only his forebrain the \"more retentive\ntissues\" for memory. The Vodalus crowd and the alzabo are eating arms, legs, livers, etc.\n\nAll three would seem to combine to make the sharing experience more intense and more permanent (the \nautarch's memories of his predescessors would seem to be fairly permanent). Still, as we see in \nUotNS it isn't so overwhelmingly intense and permanent over time. (thank goodness, or the story in\nUotNS would have sucked with constant unnecessary interruptions). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-28T20:27:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I feel like mentioning that, with full admiration for Gene Wolfe, he was as we all are, a product\nof his times. It has been discussed previously how BotNS was probably influenced by popular movies\nand TV shows of the time, as well as the prevailing pop science obsessions of the 70's which included\ncloning, black holes/quasars, aliens as ancient gods, pyramid power and ESP.\n \nAnother pop science phenomenon of the time was the chemical basis of memory. McConnell's now discredited\nresearch got many researchers (including, unfortunately, some high schoolers' science projects) in which \neverything from flatworms to mice were taught to solve mazes, killed, minced and fed to other worms or\nmice in hopes they would solve the maze faster. (We see a similar use of this concept with Mr. Million).\n \nI think current research considers that RNA may play a role in memory retention, but the basic storage is\nin standing neural circuitry rather than a chemical code which is transferrable organism to organism. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<345C736C661447ADAA0B173554DE1E66@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-28T21:05:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Jordon Flato \n Isn't there a difference in what happens to the 'memories' or 'identities' in Severian as opposed to everyone else, including the Alzabo? Sev has the power to restore life. I've always been fairly certain that for Severian, the people he brings into himself are more alive, in a real way, than for any previous Autarch, or certainly and Vodellarii or ingesters of the alembic. Perhaps this plays a role in why Severian succeeds when Appian fails. Severian doesn't just have the memories of past lives in him, I think they are really alive in him in a fundamental way, which is new, unique, and unseen in any other instance of ingestion of the Alembic.\nCertainly it's different in this regard, but to say this is why Severian succeeded while previous Autarch's failed involves a bit of a time-loop semi-paradox. The problem is that Severian's power is also the *result* of him succeeding - he has access to the negentropic power of the White Fountain and can turn back time to heal the sick, resurrect the dead etc.\n\nHad a previous Autarch succeeded, he also (or instead) would have had those powers.\n\nIt is a standard problem in the theory of time travel - it tends to create events that have no cause, or have more than one cause, or (as in this case) are their own cause. Of course this does not rule out time travel per se, it just means (as everyone on this list will be aware anyway) that a world in which time travel exists operates differently with regard to causality than the standard thermodynamic model of the universe. Universes with a creator, which is certainly the case for all literary universes, and perhaps other universes as well, do of course tend to operate in this way.\n\nI'm not arguing that you are incorrect in suggesting that Severian's powers play a role in his success - just pointing out that if so they are effect as much as cause.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3D2B306110704F0BAD418CB8AF9CF699@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-28T21:05:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nJames Wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't it just as arguable that Becan was confused about the \nreasonableness of reuniting\nhis family in the animal and the used the animal fighting instincts as a \ntool to protect them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't. The alzabo evolved (or was genetically engineered) to eat humans \nand use their minds. Humans did not evolve to be eaten by alzabos. In the \nabsence of strong evidence to the contrary (e.g. evidence that Becan was \nfighting the alzabo instincts) we should assume that Becan-in-alzabo was \noperating in the perceived interests of the alzabo.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-28T21:21:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<345C736C661447ADAA0B173554DE1E66@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, you are of course correct. And while it doesn't discount my idea, it\nmakes it semi-irrelevant. It is a fantastically beautiful knot which\ntickles my brain's erogenous zones...\n\nThis is in fact one of my favorite aspects of the book, and the one aspect\nthat, once I had finished Urth of the New Sun, made me completely discount\nthe idea of their being 'other' Severians (Sev 1 Sev 2, etc.)\n\nFor my money, the very existence of Severian is SO precluded on everything\nhe does after his birth (the conciliator myth, the guild, the this the that\nthe other etc) that wouldn't have existed had the current iteration not\ntraveled back into the past and generated his history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n *From:* Jordon Flato \nIsn't there a difference in what happens to the 'memories' or 'identities'\nin Severian as opposed to everyone else, including the Alzabo? Sev has the\npower to restore life. I've always been fairly certain that for Severian,\nthe people he brings into himself are more alive, in a real way, than for\nany previous Autarch, or certainly and Vodellarii or ingesters of the\nalembic. Perhaps this plays a role in why Severian succeeds when Appian\nfails. Severian doesn't just have the memories of past lives in him, I\nthink they are really alive in him in a fundamental way, which is new,\nunique, and unseen in any other instance of ingestion of the Alembic.\n\nCertainly it's different in this regard, but to say this is why Severian\nsucceeded while previous Autarch's failed involves a bit of a time-loop\nsemi-paradox. The problem is that Severian's power is also the *result* of\nhim succeeding - he has access to the negentropic power of the White\nFountain and can turn back time to heal the sick, resurrect the dead etc.\n\nHad a previous Autarch succeeded, he also (or instead) would have had those\npowers.\n\nIt is a standard problem in the theory of time travel - it tends to create\nevents that have no cause, or have more than one cause, or (as in this case)\nare their own cause. Of course this does not rule out time travel per se,\nit just means (as everyone on this list will be aware anyway) that a world\nin which time travel exists operates differently with regard to causality\nthan the standard thermodynamic model of the universe. Universes with a\ncreator, which is certainly the case for all literary universes, and perhaps\nother universes as well, do of course tend to operate in this way.\n\nI'm not arguing that you are incorrect in suggesting that Severian's powers\nplay a role in his success - just pointing out that if so they are effect as\nmuch as cause.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5696AD94F4BD4716A080EC249A19212C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-28T21:23:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nI feel like mentioning that, with full admiration for Gene Wolfe, he was \nas we all are, a product\nof his times. It has been discussed previously how BotNS was probably \ninfluenced by popular movies\nand TV shows of the time, as well as the prevailing pop science obsessions \nof the 70's which included\ncloning, black holes/quasars, aliens as ancient gods, pyramid power and \nESP.\n\nAnother pop science phenomenon of the time was the chemical basis of \nmemory. McConnell's now discredited\nresearch got many researchers (including, unfortunately, some high \nschoolers' science projects) in which\neverything from flatworms to mice were taught to solve mazes, killed, \nminced and fed to other worms or\nmice in hopes they would solve the maze faster. (We see a similar use of \nthis concept with Mr. Million)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Certainly Wolfe like everyone must be restricted for the most part to the \nscience, pop science, and non-science of his own and previous times. But I \ndon't think one can assume that in his discussion of the alzabo, he was \nattempting to be scientifically reasonable or plausible. He was indeed \nsuggesting that the basis of memory was chemical, but because it was a cool \nidea that he had a use for, not because he believed it. Even the most \nardent believer in RNA memory would not have expected that detailed \nhistorical memories would be dispersed throughout the flesh rather than \npretty much concentrated in the brain.\n\nMr. Million, if I recall correctly, had his brain destructively scanned for \nreproduction in an electronic simulator. This suggests something like the \ncurrent model, in which connections between neurons are the basis of memory.\n\nWolfe has not to my knowledge used pyramid power, but he would use it \nwithout a qualm today if it suited the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think current research considers that RNA may play a role in memory \nretention, but the basic storage is\nin standing neural circuitry rather than a chemical code which is \ntransferrable organism to organism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. But (without trying to dig out the history of the science) I think in \nmodern times this has always been the mainstream view.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D4339B6.3070900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-28T21:48:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<3D2B306110704F0BAD418CB8AF9CF699@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Isn't it just as arguable that Becan was confused about the\nreasonableness of reuniting\nhis family in the animal and the used the animal fighting instincts \nas a\ntool to protect them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't. The alzabo evolved (or was genetically engineered) to eat \nhumans and use their minds. Humans did not evolve to be eaten by \nalzabos. In the absence of strong evidence to the contrary (e.g. \nevidence that Becan was fighting the alzabo instincts) we should \nassume that Becan-in-alzabo was operating in the perceived interests \nof the alzabo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your perspective is on rails, I'm afraid. For you, nothing could be seen \nas Becan fighting alzabo instincts--even the alzabo fighting to save \nBecan's family after having recently had two full meals. Your \nunderstanding of the available options is therefore highly constrained, \nand blinds you to other obvious options:\n\n1) The alzabo might well have been engineered to allow dead humans to \nlive on in an animal, and then it went feral.\n\n2) A naturally mutated ability of a True Merge with their prey that \ntransformed the alzabo into something new does not necessarily mean the \nNew Creature was less robust than alzabos without that ability to merge \nat all.\n\nThe \"new creature\" wants to thrive and survive just as the alzabo and \nits prey wanted to survive and thrive. It's rather crabbed thinking to \ninsist that the interests of the New Creature are usually evolutionarily \nsubversive to the interests of the alzabo animal -- or to its prey for \nthat matter. Look at how it worked with Becan's family.\n\nIf you say, \"Well, if _I_ were designing an alzabo, I would have the \nnon-sentient animal's interests predominate those of it's prey.\" But \nevolution doesn't work that way. If an animal has an ability that helps \nit survive better in a particular environment it goes with it. And there \nis no book of rules that says Life must work according to Such-and-Such \norder.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son Of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-28T22:20:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 28, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThis is paralleled with Severian in UotNS I think. He is no longer plagued by spontaneous\ntakeovers by Thecla but I guess she is still there, just unneeded. The old Autarch pops up\nonce, but only at the appropriate time and need.\n\nI think the idea of a merger is pretty appropriate, a la Daimler-Chrysler. The larger company\ntook over the smaller one. There is a new merged identity though if there is confict the majority \npartner tends to have the merged corporation serve its needs above the minority partner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm on the same page with Lee here.\nI hadn't really considered Thecla's near-absence from UotNS. IIRC, she is barely there.\nYour corporate comparison echos the idea that the Alzabo is a Proctor & Gamble metaphor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jordon Flato\nIsn't there a difference in what happens to the 'memories' or 'identities' in Severian as opposed to everyone else, including the Alzabo? Sev has the power to restore life. I've always been fairly certain that for Severian, the people he brings into himself are more alive, in a real way, than for any previous Autarch, or certainly and Vodellarii or ingesters of the alembic. Perhaps this plays a role in why Severian succeeds when Appian fails. Severian doesn't just have the memories of past lives in him, I think they are really alive in him in a fundamental way, which is new, unique, and unseen in any other instance of ingestion of the Alembic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Flato in that Thecla is alive in him in a different way than the Analeptic absorbtion.\nLee's point about her not making a fuss in UotNS is making me wonder if there is a true merger between the two.\nThe dream, where they read from the same book with their hair braided together is the best. By the end, Severian's narrative infuses her voice with less WTF? disruption, no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn:\nCertainly it's different in this regard, but to say this is why Severian succeeded while previous Autarch's failed involves a bit of a time-loop semi-paradox. The problem is that Severian's power is also the *result* of him succeeding - he has access to the negentropic power of the White Fountain and can turn back time to heal the sick, resurrect the dead etc.\n \nHad a previous Autarch succeeded, he also (or instead) would have had those powers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there was no success to be had for a previous Autarch.\nIIRC, the ones who tried are Ymar, Appian, & Severian.\nAppian was a setup, and Ymar was the first, inspired by Sev, who planted the \"tradition\" that he hoped to partake in to Ymar, who then started the Tradition.\n\n\nCan someone hook me up with th e story where Appian is named? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 28, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nHas nobody but me considered the possibility that Severian's presence\nhas rekindled Becan's mind in the alzabo (much the way he rekindles\nThecla in himself) so that Becan actually overrides the alzabo's\ninstincts to protect his family?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha! I love it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D435803.5050901@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-28T23:57:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/28/2011 4:20 PM, Son Of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Jan 28, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is paralleled with Severian in UotNS I think. He is no longer plagued by spontaneous\ntakeovers by Thecla but I guess she is still there, just unneeded. The old Autarch pops up\nonce, but only at the appropriate time and need." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Close examination of volumes I-IV, written either days before or days \nafter he leaves for Yesod, reveal he is still subject to identity \nshifts, especially when he recalls a previous shift." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Jordon Flato\nIsn't there a difference in what happens to the 'memories' or 'identities' in Severian as opposed to everyone else, including the Alzabo? Sev has the power to restore life. I've always been fairly certain that for Severian, the people he brings into himself are more alive, in a real way, than for any previous Autarch, or certainly and Vodellarii or ingesters of the alembic. Perhaps this plays a role in why Severian succeeds when Appian fails. Severian doesn't just have the memories of past lives in him, I think they are really alive in him in a fundamental way, which is new, unique, and unseen in any other instance of ingestion of the Alembic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with Flato in that Thecla is alive in him in a different way than the Analeptic absorbtion.\nLee's point about her not making a fuss in UotNS is making me wonder if there is a true merger between the two." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The old autarch's explanation allows that much of his brain cells are \nstill literally alive inside Severian. Thus, resurrective power is not \nrequired there, but Thecla pretty much has to have it after being cooked." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn:\nCertainly it's different in this regard, but to say this is why Severian succeeded while previous Autarch's failed involves a bit of a time-loop semi-paradox. The problem is that Severian's power is also the *result* of him succeeding - he has access to the negentropic power of the White Fountain and can turn back time to heal the sick, resurrect the dead etc.\n\nHad a previous Autarch succeeded, he also (or instead) would have had those powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there was no success to be had for a previous Autarch.\nIIRC, the ones who tried are Ymar, Appian,& Severian.\nAppian was a setup, and Ymar was the first, inspired by Sev, who planted the \"tradition\" that he hoped to partake in to Ymar, who then started the Tradition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be that they were looking for a candidate with suitable psionic \npotential that they could then magnify. I think it likely Sev has some \ntiny healing or time bending ability on his own that he uses to restore \nthe clinically dead Triskelle. After the mind-contact is established on \nthe night of his ascension to journeyman, he goes on to more impressive \nuses powered by the Fountain. It's forseeable that other gifts like that \nof the Pelerine, or the Sorcerer, or Ceryx, and positively Typhon, would \nbe useful in persuing one ineffable agendum or another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can someone hook me up with th e story where Appian is named?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He isn't, but he posthumously reminisces about being supervised and \ntaught by someone named Appian, and it has been inferred that Appian is \nhis predecessor steward from whom he inherited his position and his \nname, as did Odilio." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-29T04:18:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D435803.5050901@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can someone hook me up with the story where Appian is named?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe name of the story I think you are looking for is \"The Cat\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: It may be that they were looking for a candidate with suitable psionic \npotential that they could then magnify." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nToward the end of Citadel I think, Severian ponders that he seems to have revived Triskele\nbefore he received The Claw. He has two theories.\n \n1. He will succeed in bringing the New Sun and such an awesome power of planetary resurrection\ncan't help but echo backward in time and confer a small dose of it to younger Severian.\n \n2. He will fail to bring the New Sun and be unmanned. But the hierogrammates will bestow upon\nhim a nice parting gift to make up for his lost testicles and the gift of resurrection will\nbe bestowed retroactively in time.\n \nWell, we know from UotNS that Severian succeeds and that the power of resurrection is beyond the \nhierogrammates' power (though perhaps they could give it as a gift without being able to wield it\nthemselves).\n \nBut Severian's success would seem to point to the validity of #1, just as he had hoped. \n \nMoreover, the white fountain is given a bluish color, iirc. It is doppler shift as it is moving toward \nUrth but it seems also to mirror the Claw's (encased) color in theme, perhaps further suggesting\nthe White Fountain is sending him some partial Claw-like power. Perhaps it is less effective as it is \ncoded to his older self. \n \nStill when Severian is young, the White Fountain is extremely close to Urth relative to the full journey \nit travelled. Only 60 years left on a journey which started at the dawn of civilization. (not that Wolfe \nhad to have all that explicitly worked out as he finished CotA; I have the feeling that at that point of\nwriting he envisioned the white fountain simply placed in the black hole, not travelling through space to\nget there). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D43D4BC.10208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-29T08:50:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/28/2011 10:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can someone hook me up with the story where Appian is named?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The name of the story I think you are looking for is \"The Cat\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: It may be that they were looking for a candidate with suitable psionic\npotential that they could then magnify." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Toward the end of Citadel I think, Severian ponders that he seems to have revived Triskele\nbefore he received The Claw. He has two theories.\n\n1. He will succeed in bringing the New Sun and such an awesome power of planetary resurrection\ncan't help but echo backward in time and confer a small dose of it to younger Severian.\n\n2. He will fail to bring the New Sun and be unmanned. But the hierogrammates will bestow upon\nhim a nice parting gift to make up for his lost testicles and the gift of resurrection will\nbe bestowed retroactively in time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would that not also undo the emasculation?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-30T04:16:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D43D4BC.10208@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. He will fail to bring the New Sun and be unmanned. But the hierogrammates will bestow upon\nhim a nice parting gift to make up for his lost testicles and the gift of resurrection will\nbe bestowed retroactively in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Would that not also undo the emasculation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh. Restoring my own crotch might be a high priority if I had the power of resurrection.\nLucky Severian didn't have to, I guess (though as far as we know he remained childless).\n \nI still argue that a simple, non-emasculating vasectomy would have done the trick. Something\nfishy going on there. You'd almost think there was a conspiracy to put androgyny into the \nstory as much as possible. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2668E921DE7341169AEB4CB42DAB370C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-30T17:41:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D4339B6.3070900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Isn't it just as arguable that Becan was confused about the\nreasonableness of reuniting his family in the animal and the used the \nanimal fighting instincts as a tool to protect them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't. The alzabo evolved (or was genetically engineered) to eat \nhumans and use their minds. Humans did not evolve to be eaten by \nalzabos. In the absence of strong evidence to the contrary (e.g. \nevidence that Becan was fighting the alzabo instincts) we should assume \nthat Becan-in-alzabo was operating in the perceived interests of the \nalzabo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your perspective is on rails, I'm afraid. For you, nothing could be seen \nas Becan fighting alzabo instincts--even the alzabo fighting to save \nBecan's family after having recently had two full meals. Your \nunderstanding of the available options is therefore highly constrained, \nand blinds you to other obvious options:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spare us the psychoanalysis. If you can show Becan fighting alzabo \ninstincts, I am prepared to be convinced. The fact that I do not agree with \nyour conclusions does not in itself demonstrate the limitations of my \nmentality.\n\n1. Severian attacked, thinking he could scare away the zoanthropes; the \nalzabo might reasonably have drawn the same conclusion. Severian and alzabo \nare approximately equal in fighting terms. It was not a suicide mission. \nAlzabos probably have a big appetite.\n\n2. Severian killed four zoanthropes. The alzabo killed three zoanthropes, \nand Casdoe. So Becan-in-alzabo was still working to kill and eat his \nfamily, not to save their lives.\n\nIf you think Becan was fighting the alzabo, the only grounds you seem to \nhave for arguing this are that he made the alzabo attack rashly when it \nwould have been better advised to slink away. But the purpose of \nBecan-in-alzabo was still to eat his family, not save their lives. That's \nnot much in the way of fighting alzabo instincts. Why would he fight some \ninstincts, and not others?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) The alzabo might well have been engineered to allow dead humans to live \non in an animal, and then it went feral." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right... and instead of making a pretty creature with hands, for example, \nthe engineers made a ravening monster seemingly designed to slaughter \nhumans. Why would they do that, given that the prey of your hypothethical \ncreature would presumably have gone to it willingly?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) A naturally mutated ability of a True Merge with their prey that \ntransformed the alzabo into something new does not necessarily mean the \nNew Creature was less robust than alzabos without that ability to merge at \nall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I understand you correctly, you are speaking of something like a wolf \nthat suddenly finds the minds of its human prey merge with its own. But why \nwould such a creature have the urge to eat other humans? Surely its first \nthought would be to protect them by eating animals instead!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"new creature\" wants to thrive and survive just as the alzabo and its \nprey wanted to survive and thrive. It's rather crabbed thinking to insist \nthat the interests of the New Creature are usually evolutionarily \nsubversive to the interests of the alzabo animal -- or to its prey for \nthat matter. Look at how it worked with Becan's family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're not really making sense to me here. Certainly the alzabo wants to \nsurvive and thrive. It does this by killing its prey, as it killed Becan's \nfamily. What's unusual about this? A wolf would have done the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you say, \"Well, if _I_ were designing an alzabo, I would have the \nnon-sentient animal's interests predominate those of it's prey.\" But \nevolution doesn't work that way. If an animal has an ability that helps it \nsurvive better in a particular environment it goes with it. And there is \nno book of rules that says Life must work according to Such-and-Such \norder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm... the very basis of evolution is survival of the fittest. Fit alzabos \nare alzabos that eat well and mate with lots of lady alzabos. Alzabos whose \ninstincts in this regard tend to be subverted by the minds of their prey are \nunfit alzabos, who leave fewer progeny. Over time, the alzabo population \nmay be expected to become very good at preventing the instincts of its prey \nfrom interfering with its own, even as it benefits from their minds. And \nindeed, this prediction of Darwinian theory is confirmed - Becan's intellect \nis seemingly unimpaired, yet he concurs wholeheartedly with the alzabo's \ninstinct to kill and eat his family.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3304A05A4B0B49418728D98FFE47A7C9@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-30T18:16:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \n2. He will fail to bring the New Sun and be unmanned. But the \nhierogrammates will bestow upon\nhim a nice parting gift to make up for his lost testicles and the gift of \nresurrection will\nbe bestowed retroactively in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Would that not also undo the emasculation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Restoring my own crotch might be a high priority if I had the power \nof resurrection.\nLucky Severian didn't have to, I guess (though as far as we know he \nremained childless).\n\nI still argue that a simple, non-emasculating vasectomy would have done \nthe trick. Something\nfishy going on there. You'd almost think there was a conspiracy to put \nandrogyny into the\nstory as much as possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The whole business as explained by Malrubius's aquastor doesn't make a whole \nlot of sense.\n\n(1) Why be concerned that the particular autarchs who undertook and failed \nthe trial might found a dynasty? I don't see why a dynasty founded by them \nshould be worse than a dynasty founded by some autarch who never undertook \nit.\n\n(2) Severian had time to sire plenty of heirs between the time he became \nAutarch and the time he departed for Yesod.\n\nOne can make various speculations.\n\nFor (1) it might be that an autarch who went to Yesod would gain so much in \nknowledge or credibility that a dynasty would be more likely. It might \ninstead be that a dynasty started by such an autarch would be symbolic of an \ninward-turning Urth, unwilling to try again for redemption.\n\nFor (2) it might be that the consequences operate backward in time so that a \nfailed autarch would be born an androgyne. We know nothing of Appian's \nhistory in this regard. About Ymar we know that he once spurned a beautiful \nwoman and followed a dog, which does not go against the theory but hardly \nconstitutes strong evidence for it.\n\nNothing appears terribly convincing. So was Malrubius's aquastor lying, \nperhaps not about the price of falure, but about its purpose? Might the \nwillingness to proceed despite the risk of such consequences be part of \nSeverian's trial? That has a certain degree of plausibility.\n\nWolfe doesn't seem to give any clues, so it's hard to know.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D45C81B.1020509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-30T20:20:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<2668E921DE7341169AEB4CB42DAB370C@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry-\nSpare us the psychoanalysis. If you can show Becan fighting alzabo \ninstincts, I am prepared to be convinced. The fact that I do not \nagree with your conclusions does not in itself demonstrate the \nlimitations of my mentality. 1. Severian attacked, thinking he could \nscare away the zoanthropes; the alzabo might reasonably have drawn the \nsame conclusion. Severian and alzabo are approximately equal in \nfighting terms. It was not a suicide mission. Alzabos probably have a \nbig appetite. 2. Severian killed four zoanthropes. The alzabo killed \nthree zoanthropes, and Casdoe. So Becan-in-alzabo was still working \nto kill and eat his family, not to save their lives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why should I show anything? Does Severian's analysis of why Becan Alzabo \nfought not impress you at all? He describes an equal merging of the \ndesires between Becan and the animal. But you say it's just the animal \nafter all? I'm merely just adopting the actual explanation expressed in \nthe text after all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you think Becan was fighting the alzabo, the only grounds you seem \nto have for arguing this are that he made the alzabo attack rashly \nwhen it would have been better advised to slink away. But the purpose \nof Becan-in-alzabo was still to eat his family, not save their lives. \nThat's not much in the way of fighting alzabo instincts. Why would he \nfight some instincts, and not others?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The stated purpose of the Becan Alzabo was to reunify Becan's family. He \neven devoured his wife as he was dying. Last meal? What was the survival \nbenefit of this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1) The alzabo might well have been engineered to allow dead humans to \nlive on in an animal, and then it went feral." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right... and instead of making a pretty creature with hands, for \nexample, the engineers made a ravening monster seemingly designed to \nslaughter humans. Why would they do that, given that the prey of your \nhypothethical creature would presumably have gone to it willingly?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "???\nWhy would you assume the engineers had full freedom to create an animal \nin any form they wanted? On the other hand, why would the resurrected \nhumans not prefer to be in an alzabo rather than a pomeranian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) A naturally mutated ability of a True Merge with their prey that \ntransformed the alzabo into something new does not necessarily mean \nthe New Creature was less robust than alzabos without that ability to \nmerge at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I understand you correctly, you are speaking of something like a \nwolf that suddenly finds the minds of its human prey merge with its \nown. But why would such a creature have the urge to eat other \nhumans? Surely its first thought would be to protect them by eating \nanimals instead!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. You don't understand what I'm saying. An animal alzabos presumably \neat anything. If alzabos' natural prey is a social animal, then the new \ncreature would naturally seek to unify others of his prey's kind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The \"new creature\" wants to thrive and survive just as the alzabo and \nits prey wanted to survive and thrive. It's rather crabbed thinking \nto insist that the interests of the New Creature are usually \nevolutionarily subversive to the interests of the alzabo animal -- or \nto its prey for that matter. Look at how it worked with Becan's family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're not really making sense to me here. Certainly the alzabo wants \nto survive and thrive. It does this by killing its prey, as it killed \nBecan's family. What's unusual about this? A wolf would have done \nthe same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "AS DESCRIBED BY SEVERIAN the Becan alzabo behaves as an animal alzabo, \nbut it's interests are different. But the apparent motivation is \nradically different from the actual motivation, and the motivation is \nwhat is really interesting to Wolfe. The discussion about why the \nburning tent ascended is a more emphatic example of this, but he often \ndoes the same thing more subtly without overtly explaining it.\n\n**MINOR SPOILER**\nWolfe has a new story out called \"Innocent\". The narrator is in jail as \na child abductor/molester. But, in fact, he rescued the child from an \nabductor/molestor. The truth is, the narrator is a werewolf. Even though \nhis every action in the presence of the child is that of a pedophile, \nhis actual interest was to devour the child and that's all.\n**SPOILER END**" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But evolution doesn't work that way. If an animal has an ability that \nhelps it survive better in a particular environment it goes with it. \nAnd there is no book of rules that says Life must work according to \nSuch-and-Such order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummm... the very basis of evolution is survival of the fittest. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. It is natural selection, and that is not remotely the same thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fit alzabos are alzabos that eat well and mate with lots of lady \nalzabos. Alzabos whose instincts in this regard tend to be subverted \nby the minds of their prey are unfit alzabos, who leave fewer progeny. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's absolutely NO reason to assume this and we no nothing about \nalzabo reproduction. The variations even among mammals are far more \nbroad than you seem to believe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Over time, the alzabo population may be expected to become very good \nat preventing the instincts of its prey from interfering with its own, \neven as it benefits from their minds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again. You seem to believe that evolution works with some sort of \nplan in mind. If a merger works, there is no pressure for the alzabo \nbiology to change. That would be like saying that over time crocodiles \nshould have evolved the ability to run like gazelles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And indeed, this prediction of Darwinian theory is confirmed - Becan's \nintellect is seemingly unimpaired, yet he concurs wholeheartedly with \nthe alzabo's instinct to kill and eat his family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why his family? Why a house with multiple people in it protected by a \nman with a sword? Why not someone walking alone in the woods? Why not a \nzoanthrop?\n\n~ u+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-30T22:20:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D45C81B.1020509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can someone hook me up with the story where Appian is named?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The name of the story I think you are looking for is \"The Cat\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However, I don't think it's clear that the Appian of 'The Cat' is in\nfact Severian's immediate predecessor. It could be doubted, partly\nbecause it's difficult to make the dates work - there's some\ndiscussion of that in the archives - though of course dates in _New\nSun_ are always a bit mysterious - but also because it would be odd\nfor Wolfe to keep the Autarch's name mysterious throughout the series,\nand then give it away casually in a short story.\n\nThe unnamed major characters, and what we are meant to do about them,\nare one of the ongoing mysteries of the work. My suspicion is that we\nmight be able to find their names by reflection on saints. Perhaps the\nAutarch is called after a saint who was a eunuch? According to\nWikipedia (yes, I know...) the first definite eunuch saint was\nIgnatius of Constantinople (not to be confused with some more famous\nIgnatiuses)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Toward the end of Citadel I think, Severian ponders that he seems to have revived Triskele\nbefore he received The Claw. He has two theories.\n\n1. He will succeed in bringing the New Sun and such an awesome power of planetary resurrection\ncan't help but echo backward in time and confer a small dose of it to younger Severian.\n\n2. He will fail to bring the New Sun and be unmanned. But the hierogrammates will bestow upon\nhim a nice parting gift to make up for his lost testicles and the gift of resurrection will\nbe bestowed retroactively in time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that's right. What he seems to say is that, given he\nwill be castrated if he fails, there should be some counterbalancing\nreward if he succeeds - not a consolation prize, but something to\njustify the risk.. (What he actually says is 'should I conform to\ntheir desires', which I guess is a bit ambiguous, but I would read\nthis as 'should I pass the test - should I prove to be the sort of\nperson they want me to be'.) So both proposals turn on his succeeding\nin bringing the New Sun; the difference is in the source, in one case\nthe Increate, working through the natural sympathy of things, in the\nother the Hierogrammates, as an explicit reward." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-30T22:33:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The whole business as explained by Malrubius's aquastor doesn't make a whole\nlot of sense.\n\n(1) Why be concerned that the particular autarchs who undertook and failed\nthe trial might found a dynasty? ?I don't see why a dynasty founded by them\nshould be worse than a dynasty founded by some autarch who never undertook\nit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as I can see, it isn't Malrubius who says the bit about\nfounding a dynasty; it's someone - perhaps Apheta - in _Urth_, after\nthe 'test' has taken place. It may relate only to 'Appian', the point\nbeing that if he had children they would have prevented Severian,\nspecifically, becoming Autarch. (Are we actually ever told that Ymar\nwas castrated, or just left to infer it?)\n\nI don't think it likely that this was a deception, given that it is\nrevealed after the main goal of the Hierogrammates' plan has already\nbeen achieved.\n\n\n “So was Malrubius's aquastor lying," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "perhaps not about the price of falure, but about its purpose” “Might the\nwillingness to proceed despite the risk of such consequences be part of\nSeverian's trial” ?That has a certain degree of plausibility." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that is what we are originally led to believe, the 'dynasty'\npoint being revealed later. I don't think it is wholly false, but in\n'Appian's' case there was also a more specific purpose. (Since his\ntrial was a fake, there was no real point in using the threat to test\n_him_, though of course the memory of the penalty can still be part of\nthe test for Severian.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-30T22:56:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: The stated purpose of the Becan Alzabo was to reunify Becan's family. He \neven devoured his wife as he was dying. Last meal? What was the survival benefit of this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThere have been some interesting points made on both sides of the debate. But this seems like\nfairly conclusive evidence of \"merger\". It makes little sense for a pure alzabo to go through \nthe trouble of chomping Casdoe with its dying gasp; it had to toss aside an already chomped \nzooanthrope body to do so. Little sense also for a pure Becan to make this final action. Only \nfor a merged Becan (and Severa)/Alzabo creature does this final action make sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The alzabo might well have been engineered to allow dead humans to live on in an animal" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm not understanding the assumption that alzabos are evolved or engineered to feed on humans.\nThey are alien creatures, like the notules and slugs and salamanders. If these can be used to\nto kill humans without being evolved or engineered to, why not alzabo?\n \nThe fact that the alzabo appears when Agia is hiding in the attic, safe from it, might suggest\nit has been called through the mirrors by Hethor. Severian later wonders why she didn't sneak\ndown and stab him while he was eating or at some other vulnerable time. Moreover, it is in \nCasdoe's cabin that Severian tells Agia he knows who Hethor is and that he is the source of \nthe deadly beasts he has encountered. Agia assures Severian that one of Hethor's beasts will kill\nhim if she doesn't do it first. Later...enter alzabo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alzabos whose instincts in this regard tend to be subverted by the minds of their prey are \nunfit alzabos, who leave fewer progeny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMore evidence, I think, that alzabos are not evolved to prey upon humans. Humans are are unique\nin being both easy prey without weapons and deadly enemies with them. The alzabo's own instincts\nseem better suited for hunting pure prey species. Alzabo-Becan combined instincts lead to the\ndeath of the beast which wouldn't have happened if the prey had been a rabbit-like creature.\n \nI think it is similar to a dog who is killed by chasing cars. Naturally evolved instincts in \nanimals often become deadly when misapplied in a human-based world (as the alzabo brain has \npartially become). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<905B777CD89B47D49DE9C4BDF325CC27@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-31T01:46:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D45C81B.1020509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry-\nSpare us the psychoanalysis. If you can show Becan fighting alzabo \ninstincts, I am prepared to be convinced. The fact that I do not agree \nwith your conclusions does not in itself demonstrate the limitations of \nmy mentality. 1. Severian attacked, thinking he could scare away the \nzoanthropes; the alzabo might reasonably have drawn the same conclusion. \nSeverian and alzabo are approximately equal in fighting terms. It was not \na suicide mission. Alzabos probably have a big appetite. 2. Severian \nkilled four zoanthropes. The alzabo killed three zoanthropes, and Casdoe. \nSo Becan-in-alzabo was still working to kill and eat his family, not to \nsave their lives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why should I show anything? Does Severian's analysis of why Becan Alzabo \nfought not impress you at all? He describes an equal merging of the \ndesires between Becan and the animal. But you say it's just the animal \nafter all? I'm merely just adopting the actual explanation expressed in \nthe text after all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"When the alzabo rushed at the zoanthrops, its instinct commanded it to\npreserve its prey from others; when Becan did so, his instinct, I\nbelieve, was to preserve his wife and child.\"\n\nThe instinct to 'preserve' (i.e.stop others getting) his wife and child is \nno problem for the alzabo, so naturally there is no need for it to be \nobliterated, any more than there is need to stop him talking. The instinct \nto actually *protect* his wife and child is completely nullified (in fact, \nhe kills his wife). But there's no need at all to remove his feelings of \nownership - they are in line with the instincts of the creature. Only the \nfeelings and instincts of Becan that are useful to the alzabo are retained. \nHe's a tool.\n\nSeverian does not suggest that Becan was fighting the alzabo. He says their \ninstincts were aligned. If your mind is being used by an alzabo, that's \nwhat happens - your instincts fit in with those of the alzabo, or they stop \nexisting. Becan's hopes regarding the future lives of his children, for \nexample... gone completely.\n\nThat's how things go\nWhen you're in an alzabo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you think Becan was fighting the alzabo, the only grounds you seem to \nhave for arguing this are that he made the alzabo attack rashly when it \nwould have been better advised to slink away. But the purpose of \nBecan-in-alzabo was still to eat his family, not save their lives. \nThat's not much in the way of fighting alzabo instincts. Why would he \nfight some instincts, and not others?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The stated purpose of the Becan Alzabo was to reunify Becan's family. He \neven devoured his wife as he was dying. Last meal? What was the survival \nbenefit of this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not? A dying dog might gnaw a bone. The instincts of Becan that are \nuseful to the alzabo are still present, like the instinct of a dog to chew \nbones. But how is he fighting the alzabo? The alzabo doesn't mind eating \nCasdoe at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1) The alzabo might well have been engineered to allow dead humans to \nlive on in an animal, and then it went feral." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Right... and instead of making a pretty creature with hands, for example, \nthe engineers made a ravening monster seemingly designed to slaughter \nhumans. Why would they do that, given that the prey of your \nhypothethical creature would presumably have gone to it willingly?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "???\nWhy would you assume the engineers had full freedom to create an animal in \nany form they wanted? On the other hand, why would the resurrected humans \nnot prefer to be in an alzabo rather than a pomeranian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The point is, there must be a reason why the creature is a huge carnivore, \nperfectly suited to prey on unwilling humans and creatures similar to humans \n(such as Severian has noted live on myriad worlds). If it evolved this way, \nno problem. That it was designed this way for the benefit of humans is \nsomewhat hard to swallow!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2) A naturally mutated ability of a True Merge with their prey that \ntransformed the alzabo into something new does not necessarily mean the \nNew Creature was less robust than alzabos without that ability to merge \nat all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I understand you correctly, you are speaking of something like a wolf \nthat suddenly finds the minds of its human prey merge with its own. But \nwhy would such a creature have the urge to eat other humans? Surely its \nfirst thought would be to protect them by eating animals instead!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. You don't understand what I'm saying. An animal alzabos presumably eat \nanything. If alzabos' natural prey is a social animal, then the new \ncreature would naturally seek to unify others of his prey's kind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not seeking to unify anyone. It's seeking fresh meat, and lots of it. \nIts prey is a social animal, so it uses the social skills of its prey's mind \nto lure others of its kind. When you think about it, that is the natural \nprey of such a creature! After all, suppose an alzabo ate a fox. It would \nuse the mind of the fox to catch rabbits. Then it would eat the rabbits. \nAnd then all it would know to do would be to eat grass, and as a carnivore, \nit would starve. Thus it is to be expected that the strains of alzabo that \nsurvive and prosper are those attracted to social animals, which can deliver \na consistent food supply!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The \"new creature\" wants to thrive and survive just as the alzabo and \nits prey wanted to survive and thrive. It's rather crabbed thinking to \ninsist that the interests of the New Creature are usually evolutionarily \nsubversive to the interests of the alzabo animal -- or to its prey for \nthat matter. Look at how it worked with Becan's family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're not really making sense to me here. Certainly the alzabo wants to \nsurvive and thrive. It does this by killing its prey, as it killed \nBecan's family. What's unusual about this? A wolf would have done the \nsame." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "AS DESCRIBED BY SEVERIAN the Becan alzabo behaves as an animal alzabo, but \nit's interests are different. But the apparent motivation is radically \ndifferent from the actual motivation, and the motivation is what is really \ninteresting to Wolfe. The discussion about why the burning tent ascended \nis a more emphatic example of this, but he often does the same thing more \nsubtly without overtly explaining it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian's philosophising is often questionable. What I say in no way \ncontradictsSeverian's observations with regard to fact, nor even his \nobservations with respect to the alzabo-useful instincts. There's no \"actual \nmotivation\" and \"apparent motivation\" - just two motivations for the same \nact. But these motivations are not contradictory. Becan is not fighting \nthe alzabo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But evolution doesn't work that way. If an animal has an ability that \nhelps it survive better in a particular environment it goes with it. And \nthere is no book of rules that says Life must work according to \nSuch-and-Such order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ummm... the very basis of evolution is survival of the fittest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. It is natural selection, and that is not remotely the same thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are synonymous, at least in this context. As Charles Darwin put it: \n\"This preservation, during the battle for life, of varieties which possess \nany advantage in structure, constitution, or instinct, I have called Natural \nSelection; and Mr. Herbert Spencer has well expressed the same idea by the \nSurvival of the Fittest.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fit alzabos are alzabos that eat well and mate with lots of lady alzabos. \nAlzabos whose instincts in this regard tend to be subverted by the minds \nof their prey are unfit alzabos, who leave fewer progeny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's absolutely NO reason to assume this and we no nothing about alzabo \nreproduction. The variations even among mammals are far more broad than \nyou seem to believe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The details of alzabo reproduction are not relevant; my example was merely \nillustrative. Indeed, the alzabo in question might have been a female for \nall we know. The point is that if we assume alzabos have conditions of life \nand a mode of reproduction such that ordinary evolutionary principles apply, \nwe will expect its nature to be in accordance with such principles. In the \nsame way, we would be surprised to find a breed of fox which tended to act \nagainst its own interests, and in the interest of rabbits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Over time, the alzabo population may be expected to become very good at \npreventing the instincts of its prey from interfering with its own, even \nas it benefits from their minds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again. You seem to believe that evolution works with some sort of \nplan in mind. If a merger works, there is no pressure for the alzabo \nbiology to change. That would be like saying that over time crocodiles \nshould have evolved the ability to run like gazelles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Evolution doesn't have a plan, but it provides solutions that work. Alzabos \nthat act in the interests of their prey don;t work, any more than crocodiles \nthat act in the interest of gazelles. A crocodile might catch a gazelle by \nrunning, or by hiding in the water, or in some other fashion - but when the \ncrocodile succeeds the gazelle fails, and vice versa. Crocodile evolution \nworks on crocodiles, not on gazelles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And indeed, this prediction of Darwinian theory is confirmed - Becan's \nintellect is seemingly unimpaired, yet he concurs wholeheartedly with the \nalzabo's instinct to kill and eat his family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why his family? Why a house with multiple people in it protected by a man \nwith a sword? Why not someone walking alone in the woods? Why not a \nzoanthrop?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because this is precisely the sort of workable evolved solution we might \nexpect! The alzabo preys on social animals and utilises parts of their \nminds to catch social animals acquainted with the ones it has eaten. It can \nuse their voice and knowledge to lure their loved ones into the same trap. \nThat's the alzabo's way of hunting and its natural instinct. Presumably if \nit has no human mind to work with, or the human mind has no further prey of \nthe most suitable kind nearby, it roams further afield, perhaps directed by \nits victims to human habitation, perhaps at random.\n\nWe have no reason to suppose it would not devour somebody walking alone in \nthe woods. Indeed, I believe it mentions that it intends to devour Severian \nas well as Becan's family.\n\nZoanthropes would be relatively useless to it, though, as they no longer \nhave human minds. Probably this is how they survive so well in a region \ninfested with alzabos - the alzabos leave them alone unless they are \nstarving.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2D221CAB587B4ECC84CB3A3F17A0E263@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-31T01:52:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The whole business as explained by Malrubius's aquastor doesn't make a \nwhole\nlot of sense.\n\n(1) Why be concerned that the particular autarchs who undertook and \nfailed\nthe trial might found a dynasty? I don't see why a dynasty founded by \nthem\nshould be worse than a dynasty founded by some autarch who never \nundertook\nit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as I can see, it isn't Malrubius who says the bit about\nfounding a dynasty; it's someone - perhaps Apheta - in _Urth_, after\nthe 'test' has taken place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's definitely Malrubius's aquastor, in Chapter 31 of Citadel:\n\"If you fail, your manhood will be taken from you, so that you cannot \nbequeath the Phoenix Throne to your descendants. Your predecessor also \naccepted the challenge.\"\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D461624.8070608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T01:53:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "u+16b9-\nThe alzabo might well have been engineered to allow dead humans to live on in an animal" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee-\nI'm not understanding the assumption that alzabos are evolved or engineered to feed on humans.\nThey are alien creatures, like the notules and slugs and salamanders. If these can be used to\nto kill humans without being evolved or engineered to, why not alzabo?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I agree. But it is certainly debatable and I was only offering an \nalternate purpose for humans engineering of the alzabo. I wanted to \nshow that there more than two possible origins of the creature. \nObviously, if it's ability is natural, it probably developed in absence \nof humans. But it might have been engineered by alien civilizations.\n\nOn the other hand, there are no \"alien civilizations\" in tBotNS, are \nthere? There humans and the descendants of humans. It sort of reminds me \nof Tracking Song in that.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fact that the alzabo appears when Agia is hiding in the attic, safe from it, might suggest\nit has been called through the mirrors by Hethor. Severian later wonders why she didn't sneak\ndown and stab him while he was eating or at some other vulnerable time. Moreover, it is in\nCasdoe's cabin that Severian tells Agia he knows who Hethor is and that he is the source of\nthe deadly beasts he has encountered. Agia assures Severian that one of Hethor's beasts will kill\nhim if she doesn't do it first. Later...enter alzabo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Alzabos whose instincts in this regard tend to be subverted by the minds of their prey are\nunfit alzabos, who leave fewer progeny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More evidence, I think, that alzabos are not evolved to prey upon humans. Humans are are unique\nin being both easy prey without weapons and deadly enemies with them. The alzabo's own instincts\nseem better suited for hunting pure prey species. Alzabo-Becan combined instincts lead to the\ndeath of the beast which wouldn't have happened if the prey had been a rabbit-like creature.\n\nI think it is similar to a dog who is killed by chasing cars. Naturally evolved instincts in\nanimals often become deadly when misapplied in a human-based world (as the alzabo brain has\npartially become). \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3D5637A857574591B8CB48C80D2AC87C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-31T02:07:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nI'm not understanding the assumption that alzabos are evolved or \nengineered to feed on humans.\nThey are alien creatures, like the notules and slugs and salamanders. If \nthese can be used to\nto kill humans without being evolved or engineered to, why not alzabo?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are certainly alien in origin, brought long ago to Urth allegedly \"for \nthe use and benefit of man\". Presumably they evolved to prey on the \ncreatures of their native world, but Severian notes somewhere that there are \nmany worlds containing creatures of human stock, or so similar to us that \nthey might be called human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fact that the alzabo appears when Agia is hiding in the attic, safe \nfrom it, might suggest\nit has been called through the mirrors by Hethor. Severian later wonders \nwhy she didn't sneak\ndown and stab him while he was eating or at some other vulnerable time. \nMoreover, it is in\nCasdoe's cabin that Severian tells Agia he knows who Hethor is and that he \nis the source of\nthe deadly beasts he has encountered. Agia assures Severian that one of \nHethor's beasts will kill\nhim if she doesn't do it first. Later...enter alzabo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The alzabo has been around for a while - it ate Severa several days ago, and \nsince then it has been stalking the other inhabitants of the household.. \nBesides, we know that alzabos are originally from elsewhere, but now native \nto Urth. Even if we had not been told this, both Vodalus and the Autarch \nhave access to potions made from dead alzabos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Alzabos whose instincts in this regard tend to be subverted by the minds \nof their prey are\nunfit alzabos, who leave fewer progeny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More evidence, I think, that alzabos are not evolved to prey upon humans. \nHumans are are unique\nin being both easy prey without weapons and deadly enemies with them. The \nalzabo's own instincts\nseem better suited for hunting pure prey species. Alzabo-Becan combined \ninstincts lead to the\ndeath of the beast which wouldn't have happened if the prey had been a \nrabbit-like creature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Humans are not such difficult prey for an alzabo with a stolen human mind to \nuse as a weapon against them, as we saw.\n\nIf an alzabo preyed on rabbits, its prey's mind would be best suited to \neating grass. Probably it could use it to find the rabbit warren, but the \nrabbit's mind - unlike a human one - would have no intelligence helpful in \nkilling more rabbits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is similar to a dog who is killed by chasing cars. Naturally \nevolved instincts in\nanimals often become deadly when misapplied in a human-based world (as the \nalzabo brain has\npartially become)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree the alzabo's death was a similar accident - its instincts to preseve \nits chosen prey from other predators got the better of it. Doubtless many \npredators in our world die this way.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T02:54:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<3D5637A857574591B8CB48C80D2AC87C@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: However, I don't think it's clear that the Appian of 'The Cat' is in\nfact Severian's immediate predecessor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep hard to know for sure. Borski argues that the name Appian is evocative of bees \nand some of Severian's first acquired memories are of bee keeping presumably from the\nhoney steward profession of the old autarch.\n \nSure would be a funny coincidence for Wolfe to happen to choose the name \"Appian\". On\nthe other hand, the bee in Latin is \"apis\" with one \"p\". Just checked there is a Saint\nApian as well as Saint Appian. So, I dunno. I think it is probably meant to be him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--but also because it would be odd for Wolfe to keep the Autarch's name mysterious \nthroughout the series, and then give it away casually in a short story. The unnamed \nmajor characters, and what we are meant to do about them, are one of the ongoing \nmysteries of the work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm unsure on this. It does seem unfair to bury the answer to a major mystery of BotNS\nin a short story. Perhaps it is a way for Wolfe to reward his most loyal fans? Or perhaps\nit means the name of the old Autarch is considered a minor mystery, by WOlfe. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T03:09:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The point is, there must be a reason why the creature is a huge \ncarnivore, perfectly suited to prey on unwilling humans and creatures similar to humans" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFar from perfectly suited to hunting humans as the standoff with Severian and its eventual \ndeath demonstrate. If it had been \"smart\" it would have stopped with Severa and Becan. I\nget the sense their contribution made the alzabo a bit \"stupid\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree the alzabo's death was a similar accident - its instincts to preseve \nits chosen prey from other predators got the better of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhile other readers recognize Becan's instincts as a partial cause of the alzabo's death\nI suppose it make no sense to further debate the point. All salient aspects of the \ndiscussion have been covered.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T03:28:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: On the other hand, there are no \"alien civilizations\" in tBotNS, are \nthere? There humans and the descendants of humans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBefore we are made to realize that B, F and O and Inire and the Cumaean have mythological\nanalogs, there is (at least it was to me) a sense that there are non-human alien civilizations\nout there. There must be some sort of civilization out there producing blasters and fliers\nand anti-iron etc.\n \nBut using mythology/religion as a guide, I think there is a sense that all the beings to \nbe found in BotNS (and Long/Short) have some intrinsic relationship to humans. I guess the\nHierogrammates (and Hierodules) were fashioned from lower animal types, not civilized \ncreatures? On the other hand, apports tell us that to Hiero-types, civilized intelligent\nbeings can be mistaken for animals. I dunno. Wolfe doesn't give us much on \"aliens\".\n \nBut anyway, here is my real sense of things. Forgive me if I am too much a slave to symmetry:\n \nIf Hiero-types which are angel-analogs, come (in some manner) from Yesod the universe higher \nthan Briah, then the worst, demonic things come from Abaddon, that universe which is lower than \nBriah. For me this would include Notules, slugs,salamanders and alzabo. (and perhaps Hethor himself, \nbut another thread for that).\n \nThus it makes sense that they don't really arrive on spaceships physically travelling through space\nto Urth. They are brought by mirrors which accelerate light to faster-than-light speed, thus \nleaving the universe and providing inter-universe travel. Angels-Yesod, demons-Abaddon. Mirrors if\nyou want a short cut to either. The symmetry works for me. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T03:50:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: I don't think it likely that this was a deception,..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think it was and at a few different levels. It was first a deception\non the old Autarch, Appian. I think he surprised them with his dedication\nand bravery in giving it a shot. Not what you'd expect from a honey steward.\n \nIf they saw a future where he returned unsuccessfully to Urth and had some \nkids, it could interfere with Severian taking the throne so they put a stop\nto that branching. \n \nThe autarchs were place holders. Figureheads propped up (by whom? the grand \nvizier, surely). It didn't matter much what they did as long as the Commonwealth\nstayed intact. (Thus I argue that Appian's name is a minor mystery. He is not \nreally a major character).\n \n\"They\" were waiting for Severian and Severian alone. For some reason he had to \nserve as autarch (maybe Sev 1?) before becoming the New Sun. The white fountain\nwas active during all Severian's younger years. Somebody on Urth was keyed to it.\nBut who? Someone with nascent resurrection powers. Once identified, that person\nwas relentlessly poked, prodded and steered on the necessary path (the aureate path?)\nto fulfill the destiny of Ushas.\n \nI think \"unmanning\" (they never say \"castration\" but c'mon..) was necessary not for\nthe purposes mentioned by the characters. As elsewhere argued, a simple vasectomy \nwould have prevented an Appian dynasty. But Wolfe needed more than just a sterile\nmale for this story. He needed an androgyne. Why?\n \nIt is my argument that the story needed an androgyne to point to the subtext which is\nnever openly spelled out: a Dionysus-like demiurge has created all we see. The god\nDionysus was androgynous and we see his echo in the old Autarch. Also in the Green Man,\nin Tzadkiel and perhaps in the two-sided male/female coin which is Inire/Cumaean. \n \n(heh,Appian's androgynous face is on the obverse side of Vodalus' coin. What is on the \nreverse side?)\n \nHmm, perhaps I should amend that to, \"never openly spelled out until RttW\". \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T15:26:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIt's definitely Malrubius's aquastor, in Chapter 31 of Citadel:\n\"If you fail, your manhood will be taken from you, so that you ?cannot\nbequeath the Phoenix Throne to your descendants. Your predecessor also\naccepted the challenge.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, OK, then. I guess I was just reading 'so that' as 'with the result that'.\n\nI still don't think it needs to be read as 'We must prevent you\nstarting a dynasty, since a dynasty founded by someone who failed the\ntest would be a bad thing'. Rather it can mean ''In taking the test\nyou risk being unmanned, and so losing the ability to found a dynasty,\nas obviously you would want to' - so on that reading it is indeed part\nof the test, a test of the Autarch's commitment.\n\nLater we are told (by Tzadkiel, actually, not Apheta as I thought)\nthat it would have been a bad thing for 'Appian' to have a child, as\nit would have kept Severian from the throne; but that's specific to\nhis case.\n\nAs to the point that an autarch can have a child before he takes the\ntest, perhaps he is told that that would disqualify him, as lack of\nchildren is part of the penalty." } ] }, { "message_id": "<710736.46883.qm@web161815.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T21:51:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) something awful forum wolfe discussion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I came across a forum title Book of the New Sun and why it is the best thing ever.\n\nhttp://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3248039\n\nNever heard of the hosting site, couldn't post without registering, but imagine my shock when I found my own name there brought up as someone who is \"full of poo\" and \"writes like a crazy person\". They said, be sure to avoid what him.\n\nWould go and at least post a link to my whole Short Sun essay but don't want to pay $10. The discussion is pretty much focused around \"why sev is a liar\" and what the purpose of the long sun whorl is, but really nothing too insightful.\n\nInfamy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T22:03:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) something awful forum wolfe discussion", "in_reply_to": "<710736.46883.qm@web161815.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:51 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI came across a forum title Book of the New Sun and why it is the best thing ever.\n\nhttp://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3248039\n\nNever heard of the hosting site, couldn't post without registering, but imagine my shock when I found my own name there brought up as someone who is \"full of poo\" and \"writes like a crazy person\". They said, be sure to avoid what him.\n\nWould go and at least post a link to my whole Short Sun essay but don't want to pay $10. The discussion is pretty much focused around \"why sev is a liar\" and what the purpose of the long sun whorl is, but really nothing too insightful.\n\nInfamy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude. It's Something Awful.\n\nDon't expect much out of it. Although their WTF, D&D series about illustrations in RPGs is really funny." } ] }, { "message_id": "<719604783FF74786A0BB2CBC3FCB5943@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-31T22:14:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The point is, there must be a reason why the creature is a \nhuge\ncarnivore, perfectly suited to prey on unwilling humans and creatures \nsimilar to humans" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Far from perfectly suited to hunting humans as the standoff with Severian \nand its eventual\ndeath demonstrate. If it had been \"smart\" it would have stopped with \nSevera and Becan. I\nget the sense their contribution made the alzabo a bit \"stupid\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How so? It was expecting - very reasonably - to find only easy meat in \nBecan's household. Casdoe actually opened the door for it! Had Severian \nnot been there, the alzabo would have dined in safety and comfort.\n\nUnfortunately it encountered Severian, an indestructible hero you have \nfrequently likened to Hercules. Still the alzabo faces him off! One cannot \ndoubt that it is well equipped to deal with ordinary men and women, though - \nas I said earlier - regions of high population density would be \nuncomfortable for it.\n\nIts death was I suppose a consequence of the encounter to some extent. \nSeverian had already deprived the unfortunate creature of its prey, and when \nit saw the same thing about to happen once again it unwisely rushed the mob \nof zoanthropes. Still, given its size it must have dined well for years. I \ndo not believe the alzabo should be classified as endangered on the basis of \nthis one incident." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree the alzabo's death was a similar accident - its instincts to \npreseve\nits chosen prey from other predators got the better of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While other readers recognize Becan's instincts as a partial cause of the \nalzabo's death\nI suppose it make no sense to further debate the point. All salient \naspects of the\ndiscussion have been covered." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The original claim was not that Becan's instincts were partly to blame for \nits death, but that Becan's persona was actually fighting the alzabo \ninstincts.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0039E3FE-84BA-416F-AE62-0FA9DA097B9F@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-01-31T22:28:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) something awful forum wolfe discussion", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:03 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jan 31, 2011, at 3:51 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I came across a forum title Book of the New Sun and why it is the best thing ever.\n\nhttp://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3248039\n\nNever heard of the hosting site, couldn't post without registering, but imagine my shock when I found my own name there brought up as someone who is \"full of poo\" and \"writes like a crazy person\". They said, be sure to avoid what him.\n\nWould go and at least post a link to my whole Short Sun essay but don't want to pay $10. The discussion is pretty much focused around \"why sev is a liar\" and what the purpose of the long sun whorl is, but really nothing too insightful.\n\nInfamy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dude. It's Something Awful.\n\nDon't expect much out of it. Although their WTF, D&D series about illustrations in RPGs is really funny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haven't dipped in there. Looks like I could waste some serious time in that D&D thread.\nThe dialogue on this one just cracked me up.\nhttp://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/illusion-of-decapus.php?page=3\n\nI think bad fantasy art keeps more people away from the genre than bad fantasy films or books.\nI wouldn't touch D&D once I thought the art was corny. Now I wish I'd practiced dragons and shit a bit more." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7A4FFA7E-A2D7-4A7B-873D-D7E7DE39C8D2@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-01-31T22:31:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) something awful forum wolfe discussion", "in_reply_to": "<0039E3FE-84BA-416F-AE62-0FA9DA097B9F@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 31, 2011, at 4:28 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI think bad fantasy art keeps more people away from the genre than bad fantasy films or books.\nI wouldn't touch D&D once I thought the art was corny. Now I wish I'd practiced dragons and shit a bit more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh. D&D art is certainly a mixed bag...but David Trampier was astonishingly talented. Erol Otus did an awful lot of hallucinatory fever-dream paintings that I like too. Jim Holloway, if you're looking for slightly-cartoonish figures with a lot of eye-pleasing motion, is good. Jeff Dee usually wasn't bad.\n\nSure, Sturgeon's Law still applies...but a lot of the Golden Age (say, 1977 to 1984) D&D art was really well done.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-01-31T23:21:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nI think \"unmanning\" (they never say \"castration\" but c'mon..) was \nnecessary not for\nthe purposes mentioned by the characters. As elsewhere argued, a simple \nvasectomy\nwould have prevented an Appian dynasty. But Wolfe needed more than just a \nsterile\nmale for this story. He needed an androgyne. Why?\n\nIt is my argument that the story needed an androgyne to point to the \nsubtext which is\nnever openly spelled out: a Dionysus-like demiurge has created all we \nsee. The god\nDionysus was androgynous and we see his echo in the old Autarch. Also in \nthe Green Man,\nin Tzadkiel and perhaps in the two-sided male/female coin which is \nInire/Cumaean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If in a book of a thousand pages, a relatively minor character is an \nandrogyne, it hardly points to anything in particular, any more than another \ncharacter being half-man, half-robot. And Dionysus was hardly the only \ndeity with androgynous aspects. But that is beside the point::\n\nThe autarch is *not* an androgyne, although Severian mistook him for one \nwhen they first met. He is neuter. Those are quite different things.\n\nIs there a lot of other androgyny in BotNS? Hardly. A woman with a deep \nvoice or a man from the future with a high-pitched voice are hardly \nindicators. There are two cacogens of different species who have made their \nhoimes on Urth; one is male and the other is female - and that's supposed to \nbe a pointer to androgynity? I could walk down a street of any city today \nand spot more androgynity than this lot.\n\nWhere is the evidence for a Dionysus-like demiurge anyway? Presumably every \ncosmic cycle was created by the same entity, including that of Urth and our \nown if it is different. This entity is known on Urth as the Increate or the \nPancreator. No special characteristics are ascribed to him; in particular \nthere is no suggestion in the text of androgyny.\n\nThe BotLS has a new pantheon. Apart from the gods of Mainframe, we have the \nOutsider, whom it seems clear is identified by Wolfe as the god of \nChristianity under another name. [In the lists of characters, we can even \nfind the three aspects of the Trinity delineated.] It's also suggested that \nAh Lah is an alternative name for the Outsider. It can hardly be doubted \nthat Increate and Pancreator are also alternate names.\n\nYou could perhaps find a suggestion of androgyny in Silk hearing the \nOutsider talking in two voices, a man's and a woman's - but I think he \nsuggests that in fact he has more voices than two. Top candidates for \nsymbols of androgyny on the Whorl appear to be Incus and Titi - but it is \nhard to argue that their presence indicates anything more than an attempt at \na naturalistic spectrum of characters.\n\nIn RttW Dionysus is referenced, and Silk agrees that he may also be the \nOutsider. But why not - this is known to be the case for Allah and the \nIncreate! Although wine is involved, the symbology invoked/evoked by Silk \non Blue appear more Christian than Dionysian.\n\nFinally, why link Dionysus to the concept of a demiurge? Are they \nclassically identified? Is the universe of Urth especially Dionysian in \naspect? I don't see anything especially Dionysian about it at all.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<72A11B69-72CF-4C28-9EF9-F1E7160AA676@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-02-01T00:07:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) something awful forum wolfe discussion", "in_reply_to": "<7A4FFA7E-A2D7-4A7B-873D-D7E7DE39C8D2@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:31 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jan 31, 2011, at 4:28 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think bad fantasy art keeps more people away from the genre than bad fantasy films or books.\nI wouldn't touch D&D once I thought the art was corny. Now I wish I'd practiced dragons and shit a bit more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Huh. D&D art is certainly a mixed bag...but David Trampier was astonishingly talented. Erol Otus did an awful lot of hallucinatory fever-dream paintings that I like too. Jim Holloway, if you're looking for slightly-cartoonish figures with a lot of eye-pleasing motion, is good. Jeff Dee usually wasn't bad.\n\nSure, Sturgeon's Law still applies...but a lot of the Golden Age (say, 1977 to 1984) D&D art was really well done.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't mean to disparage any particular artist. Even Greats like Hildebrant rubbed me the wrong way when I was a teenager. It has more to do with my biases than the art. I don't even know David Trampier. Just googled, and I like it, but at fifteen I would have thought it corny & cliche. It's odd that I appreciate this stuff more as an adult, but that has mostly to do with getting over myself, I think." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-01T02:13:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) something awful forum wolfe discussion", "in_reply_to": "<72A11B69-72CF-4C28-9EF9-F1E7160AA676@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: but imagine my shock when I found my own name there brought up as someone who is \n\"full of poo\" and \"writes like a crazy person\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh. Funny actually. Well, someone in here dubbed one of my ideas \"Worst Ever\". The question one\nmight ask is: \"what are the theories these critics base their own superiority upon?\"\n \nReminds me of a Johnny Depp line from Pirates of the Caribean:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Commodore: \"YOu are, without doubt, the worst pirate I ever heard of!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cap'n Jack Sparrow: \"Ah, yes...but you HAVE heard of me\" \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-01T03:20:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The autarch is *not* an androgyne, although Severian mistook him for one \nwhen they first met. He is neuter. Those are quite different things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBeen checking under the old Appian robes, eh wot? He's been \"unmanned\". Are you SURE he\nwasn't endowed with some ovaries in the process? Definitions of \"androgynous\" and include\n\"ambiguous in gender\". Moreover, even if Severian used the wrong word I think you'll need \nto explain why WOlfe has Severian use that word. Mistaken or not, once used, the concept has\nbeen invoked for the reader." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there a lot of other androgyny in BotNS? Hardly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHm. I think I came up with 8-10 examples previously. How many are needed to be \"a lot\"? I \nguess it is all what you are used to. That seems like a lot to me. What other books are \nyou comparing it to?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could walk down a street of any city today and spot more androgynity than this lot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh you are comparing to the real world. Well, I'd say your statement depends on which street, \nor which bar you happen to be doing your spotting. As I said, it is all what you are used to. \nBut you are just arguing to argue here. It wouldn't be Gerry if there weren't a sneering line \ntossed in there somewhere ;- )." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where is the evidence for a Dionysus-like demiurge anyway?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNot where you can see it, obviously. But you have denied there is any mythological gnostic basis \nto the mysteries in Wolfe's work so this is not surprising." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably every cosmic cycle was created by the same entity, including that of Urth and our \nown if it is different. This entity is known on Urth as the Increate or the Pancreator. No special \ncharacteristics are ascribed to him; in particular there is no suggestion in the text of androgyny." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nUnless you know where to look. You may think of God as an incorporeal, distant being who never \ngets personally involved in human affairs but not everyone does and in the mythological past almost\neveryone assumed there were godly appearances on earth in human form. I think this happens in BotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's also suggested that Ah Lah is an alternative name for the Outsider. It can hardly be doubted \nthat Increate and Pancreator are also alternate names." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nCorrect. However the name \"Jahweh\" or even \"God\" is suspiciously absent. Present is the suggestion that \nThe Outsider is the God of Wine, Son of Thyone. Can't get a more direct reference to Dionysus than that. \nAnd you correctly deduce that he and the Pancreator are one and the same. I'm not so sure about the \nIncreate who was \"not created\". But Pancreator and demiurge are synonymous enough for me. \n \nUsing these terms independently as though the Increate and Pancreator might not be the same being suggests \nto me that BotNS is set in a gnostic universe. In such a place, the true spiritual God and the pancreator \nof all the material substance we see are not the same thing.\n \nMoreover, we find Dionysian associations, androgyny, witches, snakes, bull, green man etc. in BotNS. If \nyou don't see any transubstantial meaning to them, it is fine to restrict one's self to the plowman's \ninterpretation. It is a crackling good story read at face value. Who cares if there are a few stupid \ndreams and stories with mythological symbolism. We can ignore them, as we can ignore our own dreams." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, why link Dionysus to the concept of a demiurge? Are they classically identified? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, they are. You can Google \"Dionysus\" and \"demiurge\" and \"Plato\" and \"Zoroastrianism\" and \"Great God Pan\" \nand \"The Green Man\" and \"Nietzsche\" etc. as easily as I have done. It is just a matter of wanting to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the universe of Urth especially Dionysian in aspect? I don't see anything especially Dionysian about \nit at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat's because you are not trying very hard to see it from that perspective. In fact, you are trying very \nhard not to see it. Such efforts do not go unrewarded. If you were more easy-going you'd just ignore it.\nBut the effort is noted.\n \nAnyway, you have apparently missed a substantial number of posts in the past few months identifying not only \nthe Dionysian aspects of BotNS but also the Apollonian counterparts. Very interesting philosophical and \nliterary concepts these Apollonian and Dionysian themes. You should check them out. (in fact, Gerry, you\npersonally would seem to lean very heavily toward one side of this spectrum; guess which one).\n \n \n \n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-01T03:25:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- Unfortunately it encountered Severian, an indestructible hero you have \nfrequently likened to Hercules." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf you are able to recognize Severian as an indestructible hero, of mixed genealogy, with \na missing twin, with superhuman power, who was set upon various superhuman tasks, who slew \nmany monsters, to finally die and be reborn as a demi-god...\n \n..hey, why quibble over a little alzabo? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9B24CC735D7346A0AD052B285E14F3A1@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-01T22:01:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there a lot of other androgyny in BotNS? Hardly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. I think I came up with 8-10 examples previously. How many are needed\nto be \"a lot\"? I\nguess it is all what you are used to. That seems like a lot to me. What\nother books are\nyou comparing it to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's your list of \"examples\":" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Didn't you ever wonder why Typhon had an erection in front of Severian\nand demanded tribute of both sexy males and females and why Dorcas\nand Jolenta got it on and why the green man's\nvoice is so feminine...why Agia has a low voice, why Thecla has a\nmasculine gait\nand enjoys wearing men's clothing, why the Autarch is rendered\nandrogynous (when a\nsimple vasectomy would do), why Severian is forever conjoined with a\nfemale and is\nmistaken for a female on at least three occasions, why Tzadkiel is\nboth male and\nfemale" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon, Dorcas and Jolenta are not androgynous in any normal sense of the\nword; they are presented as distinctly masculine and feminine, even if they\nsometimes like a little variety in their partners.\n\nThere's a plant-man whose voice is high-pitched, and a heterosexual woman\nwhose voice happens to be low. Right... In this universe we have David\nBeckham and Marlene Dietrich, to name but two. It is hardly a novel \nphenomenon.\n\nHas Thecla a masculine gait? Surely the opportunities for taking a stroll\nin the dungeons of the Torturers are limited? On one occasion Severian is\nmistaken for a woman when walking around in the dark after the Thecla\npersona takes over - that hardly suggests a masculine gait.\n\nOh, and in Severian's dream she found herself wearing his clothes and\n\"rather enjoyed it\". Such things are hardly unheard of, and there's no \nsuggestion\nthat during her life in the House Absolute she was known for cross-dressing\n\nThe Autarch looks androgynous because he's been neutered.\n\nSeverian is forever conjoined with numerous individuals of both sexes. He\nis mistaken for female on occasion when a particular female persona has\ntaken over.\n\nAn alien/angel has male and female aspects. Tzadkiel is just about the only\nlegitimate example of androgyny in this entire collection! But angels are\noften presented as androgynous. We don't go from that to a presumption that\nthe deity commanding them must be one traditionally associated with\nandrogyny.\n\nOne could probably find twenty more references which could be arbitrarily\nstretched into having some connection with an extremely broad definition of\nandrogyny.\n\nThey still wouldn't present evidence for leaping to the\ncosmological conclusion that the creator of Urth's universe must be a\n\"Dionysus-like demiurge\". Indeed, inasmuch as Urth appears to be somewhat\nfallen, one would expect that conditions there would tend to be in\nopposition to the nature of the Pancreator, rather than a pointer to them!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I could walk down a street of any city today and spot more androgynity\nthan this lot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh you are comparing to the real world. Well, I'd say your statement\ndepends on which street,\nor which bar you happen to be doing your spotting. As I said, it is all\nwhat you are used to.\nBut you are just arguing to argue here. It wouldn't be Gerry if there\nweren't a sneering line\ntossed in there somewhere ;- )." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, and I am not sneering. I'm making\nthe point that any thousand page book with the slightest pretensions to\nnaturalism is probably going to include a good few examples of the sort of\nthing you are stretching into examples of androgyny.\n\nIt's telling that you avoid the most obvious examples of androgyny in the \nSolar\ncycle such as Titi and Incus. Should we conclude from their existence that \nthe\ncreator of their Whorl is androgynous? Or should we conclude that the human\nspecies of the Whorl contains variety comparable to that of our own?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Presumably every cosmic cycle was created by the same entity, including\nthat of Urth and our\nown if it is different. This entity is known on Urth as the Increate or\nthe Pancreator. No special\ncharacteristics are ascribed to him; in particular there is no suggestion\nin the text of androgyny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless you know where to look. You may think of God as an incorporeal,\ndistant being who never\ngets personally involved in human affairs but not everyone does and in the\nmythological past almost\neveryone assumed there were godly appearances on earth in human form. I\nthink this happens in BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what character are you proposing is really Dionysus?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's also suggested that Ah Lah is an alternative name for the Outsider.\nIt can hardly be doubted\nthat Increate and Pancreator are also alternate names." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. However the name \"Jahweh\" or even \"God\" is suspiciously absent.\nPresent is the suggestion that\nThe Outsider is the God of Wine, Son of Thyone. Can't get a more direct\nreference to Dionysus than that.\nAnd you correctly deduce that he and the Pancreator are one and the same.\nI'm not so sure about the\nIncreate who was \"not created\". But Pancreator and demiurge are synonymous\nenough for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I pointed out, the definitions of the Outsider in BotLS character lists\nspell out characteristics of the three Persons of the Trinity. There are\nmultiple other Christian references. 'Pancreator' and 'demiurge' are\nsynonymous only in terms of the meaning \"creator of the universe\" - that\nfact invokes no specific Gnostic interpretation whatsover." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Using these terms independently as though the Increate and Pancreator\nmight not be the same being suggests\nto me that BotNS is set in a gnostic universe. In such a place, the true\nspiritual God and the pancreator\nof all the material substance we see are not the same thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your argument depends on the notion that a single deity goes by different\nnames; you cannot now turn around and assert that the fact of different\nnames suggests multiple deities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover, we find Dionysian associations, androgyny, witches, snakes,\nbull, green man etc. in BotNS. If\nyou don't see any transubstantial meaning to them, it is fine to restrict\none's self to the plowman's\ninterpretation. It is a crackling good story read at face value. Who cares\nif there are a few stupid\ndreams and stories with mythological symbolism. We can ignore them, as we\ncan ignore our own dreams." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can find as many random associations as you want to just about anything, \nDaleks or whatever. It's not \"ignoring them\" to question whether they are \nsome sort of Secret Key to understanding the work. [As it happens, Severian \nhimself has been given knowledge that he calls the Key to the Universe. \nHint: it's not androgyny.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Finally, why link Dionysus to the concept of a demiurge? Are they\nclassically identified?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, they are. You can Google \"Dionysus\" and \"demiurge\" and \"Plato\" and\n\"Zoroastrianism\" and \"Great God Pan\"\nand \"The Green Man\" and \"Nietzsche\" etc. as easily as I have done. It is\njust a matter of wanting to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not an answer. In fact looking up juxtapositions of Dionysius and demiurge \nleads to a terrible mass of babble. Can you point to one decent reference \nthat Dionysus and demiurge were classically identified?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is the universe of Urth especially Dionysian in aspect? I don't see\nanything especially Dionysian about\nit at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's because you are not trying very hard to see it from that\nperspective. In fact, you are trying very\nhard not to see it. Such efforts do not go unrewarded. If you were more\neasy-going you'd just ignore it.\nBut the effort is noted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What then, in your mind, is especially Dionysian about it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, you have apparently missed a substantial number of posts in the\npast few months identifying not only\nthe Dionysian aspects of BotNS but also the Apollonian counterparts. Very\ninteresting philosophical and\nliterary concepts these Apollonian and Dionysian themes. You should check\nthem out. (in fact, Gerry, you\npersonally would seem to lean very heavily toward one side of this\nspectrum; guess which one)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably your hypothesis of a \"Dionysus-like demiurge\" implies that the\nuniverse of BotNS tends more to the Dionysian than the Apollonian side\ncompared to ours. I ask again - what aspects of it do you see as reflecting\nthis?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-02T00:08:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<9B24CC735D7346A0AD052B285E14F3A1@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Presumably every cosmic cycle was created by the same entity, including that of Urth and our\nown if it is different. ?This entity is known on Urth as the Increate or the Pancreator. ?No special\ncharacteristics are ascribed to him; in particular there is no suggestion in the text of androgyny." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless you know where to look. You may think of God as an incorporeal, distant being who never\ngets personally involved in human affairs but not everyone does and in the mythological past almost\neveryone assumed there were godly appearances on earth in human form. I think this happens in BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Christianity certainly holds that there have been divine appearances\nin human form. Such appearances are referred to in the _Sun_ cycle, at\nleast in Silk's visions, if nowhere else. I don't see any\ncontradiction with the idea that the creator of every cycle is the\nsame." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's also suggested that Ah Lah is an alternative name for the Outsider. ?It can hardly be doubted\nthat Increate and Pancreator are also alternate names." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. However the name \"Jahweh\" or even \"God\" is suspiciously absent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would be odd to use 'God' as a _name_ for the creator in a world\nwhere it is assumed (at least in popular religion) that there are many\ngods. The Outsider is called 'the God of gods', and both Silk and\nSeverian claim that there is only one real God. As for 'Jahveh', that\nname is traditionally treated as unspeakable.\n\n\nPresent is the suggestion that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Outsider is the God of Wine, Son of Thyone. Can't get a more direct reference to Dionysus than that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. However, there are precedents (C.S. Lewis and Wole Soyinka, at\nleast) for identifying Dionysus with the Christian God. That his\nidentity as god of wine is emphasised is significant; he has other\naspects which it would be harder to interpret in Christian terms, but\nas god of wine it is not unreasonable to associate him with a God who\nis reputed to have turned water into wine, and who is regularly\ncelebrated in a ritual involving wine, through which his followers\nattain communion with him (all of which are referred to in the _Sun_\ncycle)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And you correctly deduce that he and the Pancreator are one and the same. I'm not so sure about the\nIncreate who was \"not created\". But Pancreator and demiurge are synonymous enough for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the original, Platonic sense of 'demiurge', in which it simply\nmeans 'maker', undoubtedly the terms are similar. But the Christian\nGod can also be called a demiurge in that sense. I don't see any\nreason to identify the Pancreator with a demiurge in the more specific\ngnostic sense.\n\n_Long Sun_ seems to me to be, among other things, an allegory of\ngnosticism; but in that the figure who corresponds to the demiurge is\nnot the Outsider but Pas. The Outsider stands in that story in the\nplace of the true God, who is outside the world and hidden from it.\n\nThe cycle contains clear, massive and pervasive references to the\nChristian God. There are quotations from scripture (Joseph's dream,\nthe sign from the belly of the fish, the vision of Elijah). There are\nrituals of Christian inspiration - not only the eucharist, but the\npaschal candle and the Angelus. There is the use of the cross as a\nsymbol, with definite implications that it is in origin the Outsider's\nsymbol. There are saints like Katharine and Barbara. (Wolfe's\ndiscussion of Holy Katharine in _Castle of the Otter_ makes it clear\nthat he does identify her with the - perhaps mythical - Christian\nsaint of that name.) There visions derived from the life of Jesus.\n(I'm not saying that Jesus is literally present within that cycle of\nthe universe; I am suspending judgement on that. But he is\nsymbolically present; if the visions are in fact of another person,\nthat person is being symbolicaly identifed with Jesus.)\n\nWolfe has said both that Severian is a Christian figure and that he is\na form of the Outsider.\n\nThe cycle unquestionably contains many references to pagan traditions,\nincluding, probably, gnostic ones. But I don't see that as a reason\nfor thinking of the whole universe as a gnostic one; the Christian\nimagery seems clearly dominant to me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003201cbc29c$72f47060$07d04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-02-02T05:44:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote:\n\nIt would be odd to use 'God' as a _name_ for the creator in a world\nwhere it is assumed (at least in popular religion) that there are many\ngods. The Outsider is called 'the God of gods', and both Silk and\nSeverian claim that there is only one real God. <" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "------------------\n\nSaid Severian to BF&O, in the tomb of Apu-Punchau:\n\n\"Once I believed you three were gods, and then that the Hierarchs were still\ngreater gods. So the autochthons believed me a god, and feared I would\nplunge into the western sea leaving them in night with winter always. But\nonly the Increate is God, kindling reality and blowing it out. All the rest\nof us, even Tzadkiel, can only wield the forces he's created.\" (URTH, 353)\n\nBarbatus to Severian:\n\n\"A moment since we spoke of him who makes. Among your folk the simple call\nhim God, and you, the lettered, name him Increate.\" (355)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-02T23:17:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<003201cbc29c$72f47060$07d04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason:Christianity certainly holds that there have been divine appearances\nin human form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nInteresting. I was not aware of that (perhaps not being a Christian). Who did God appear as?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would be odd to use 'God' as a _name_ for the creator in a world where it is assumed (at \nleast in popular religion) that there are many gods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I am a bit more focused on BotNS, and as Roy nicely points out, there is a use of \"God\"\nin that story. But it is associated with the Increate, not the Pancreator. And I think it is\nsignificant that these two are not necessarily the same in BotNS as they might be in modern \nChristianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for 'Jahveh', that name is traditionally treated as unspeakable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNobody is more aware of that than me. I spent many years dutifully reading Hebrew prayers and\nTorah with the abbreviation (rendered in English) \"YH\" as \"Adonai\"(our Lord) without knowing why \nnor being offered an explanation. I first heard the name \"Yaweh\" as god of the Jews in a \ncomparative religion portion of public school 6th grade history. Quite a light went on, I can \nassure you.\n \nBut most Christians aren't so anal about it, and some are quite willing to use the \"Jehovah\" \nversion of it out loud. Wolfe is willing to use a version of it in listing the maker of Terminus\nEst- Jovinian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, there are precedents (C.S. Lewis and Wole Soyinka, at\nleast) for identifying Dionysus with the Christian God. That his\nidentity as god of wine is emphasised is significant; he has other\naspects which it would be harder to interpret in Christian terms," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the original, Platonic sense of 'demiurge', in which it simply\nmeans 'maker', undoubtedly the terms are similar. But the Christian\nGod can also be called a demiurge in that sense. I don't see any\nreason to identify the Pancreator with a demiurge in the more specific\ngnostic sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI am not an expert on such things. But my current understanding is that many have felt the \"God\" of \nthe Old Testament (the genocidal one) was a Pancreator/demiurge divorced in some manner from the true\nGod or Increate. That Pancreator/demiurge might be some version of Dionysus.\n \nI think, furthermore, that some think that part of the coming of Jesus Christ was a conciliation and \njoining of Pancreator and Increate. God certainly has seemed to treat humanity better since the coming\nof Jesus. No Godsent plagues or floods or mandation of genocidal warfare anymore. They are all human\nproducts now, I guess.\n \nI have no personal opinion on such matters, of course. But all I can do is report that I get the feeling\nthat in BotNS/Briah. Wolfe has created a universe in which Pancreator and Increate were never reconciled/\nunified. Thus, despite their advanced technology they remain spiritually backwards- plagued by polytheism, \nmonsters, possession, witches, etc. All the things our world was plagued by before Jesus Christ set things \n(mostly) right.\n \nPerhaps each universe gets its own Pancreator (but Increate is above all?) I dunno. But I don't see\nthe same religious rules working in Briah as for our own universe.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D49F4F0.9010706@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T00:21:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason:Christianity certainly holds that there have been divine appearances\nin human form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting. I was not aware of that (perhaps not being a Christian). Who did God appear as?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Abraham met with God and two angels who told him about the birth of \nIsaac and the destruction of Sodom." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would be odd to use 'God' as a _name_ for the creator in a world where it is assumed (at\nleast in popular religion) that there are many gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I am a bit more focused on BotNS, and as Roy nicely points out, there is a use of \"God\"\nin that story. But it is associated with the Increate, not the Pancreator. And I think it is\nsignificant that these two are not necessarily the same in BotNS as they might be in modern\nChristianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of all\". It \nseems logically inconsistent that these could be separate persons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But most Christians aren't so anal about it, and some are quite willing to use the \"Jehovah\"\nversion of it out loud. Wolfe is willing to use a version of it in listing the maker of Terminus\nEst- Jovinian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm...that's interesting. Is it understood among Jews that YHWH is a \nHebrew form of Jove?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<326DDE2D-B096-4AEC-B347-9E6FA2CBF5CE@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-02-03T01:12:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D49F4F0.9010706@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Feb 2, 2011, at 4:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, I am a bit more focused on BotNS, and as Roy nicely points out, there is a use of \"God\"\nin that story. But it is associated with the Increate, not the Pancreator. And I think it is\nsignificant that these two are not necessarily the same in BotNS as they might be in modern\nChristianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of all\". It seems logically inconsistent that these could be separate persons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have understood them to mean the same thing. The Uncreated Creator of All made the Creation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<77952367-BB7B-4118-8392-C811FDDD9B0E@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T03:02:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<326DDE2D-B096-4AEC-B347-9E6FA2CBF5CE@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 2, 2011, at 7:12 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\n\nOn Feb 2, 2011, at 4:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, I am a bit more focused on BotNS, and as Roy nicely points out, there is a use of \"God\"\nin that story. But it is associated with the Increate, not the Pancreator. And I think it is\nsignificant that these two are not necessarily the same in BotNS as they might be in modern\nChristianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of all\". It seems logically inconsistent that these could be separate persons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have understood them to mean the same thing. The Uncreated Creator of All made the Creation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What he said. \"Increate\" is like \"Prime Mover\"--there is only one such thing, and it is the ultimate cause of all other things.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D4A1DD7.6040203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T03:15:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D49F4F0.9010706@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/2/2011 6:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Andrew Mason:Christianity certainly holds that there have been divine\nappearances\nin human form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting. I was not aware of that (perhaps not being a Christian).\nWho did God appear as?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abraham met with God and two angels who told him about the birth of\nIsaac and the destruction of Sodom." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It would be odd to use 'God' as a _name_ for the creator in a world\nwhere it is assumed (at\nleast in popular religion) that there are many gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I am a bit more focused on BotNS, and as Roy nicely points out,\nthere is a use of \"God\"\nin that story. But it is associated with the Increate, not the\nPancreator. And I think it is\nsignificant that these two are not necessarily the same in BotNS as\nthey might be in modern\nChristianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of all\". It\nseems logically inconsistent that these could be separate persons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But most Christians aren't so anal about it, and some are quite\nwilling to use the \"Jehovah\"\nversion of it out loud. Wolfe is willing to use a version of it in\nlisting the maker of Terminus\nEst- Jovinian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm...that's interesting. Is it understood among Jews that YHWH is a\nHebrew form of Jove?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't the dating reversed on that?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D4A206B.3040500@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T03:26:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<77952367-BB7B-4118-8392-C811FDDD9B0E@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/2/2011 9:02 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Feb 2, 2011, at 7:12 PM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Feb 2, 2011, at 4:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Well, I am a bit more focused on BotNS, and as Roy nicely points out, there is a use of \"God\"\nin that story. But it is associated with the Increate, not the Pancreator. And I think it is\nsignificant that these two are not necessarily the same in BotNS as they might be in modern\nChristianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of all\". It seems logically inconsistent that these could be separate persons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have understood them to mean the same thing. The Uncreated Creator of All made the Creation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What he said. \"Increate\" is like \"Prime Mover\"--there is only one such thing, and it is the ultimate cause of all other things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this agrees with trinitarian doctrine; all three Persons \nare uncreated, but the Father is the maker of heaven and earth. The Son \nand the Holy Spirit inform and influence but don't seem to directly create." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D4A2275.802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T03:35:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D4A206B.3040500@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of \nall\". It seems logically inconsistent that these could be separate \npersons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have understood them to mean the same thing. The Uncreated Creator \nof All made the Creation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What he said. \"Increate\" is like \"Prime Mover\"--there is only one \nsuch thing, and it is the ultimate cause of all other things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think this agrees with trinitarian doctrine; all three Persons \nare uncreated, but the Father is the maker of heaven and earth. The \nSon and the Holy Spirit inform and influence but don't seem to \ndirectly create." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. I don't this is probably the case. John 1 says:\n\"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word \nwas God. The same was with God in the beginning. All things were made by \nhim and without him nothing was made that was made.\"\n\nJehovah Witnesses read this as \"All things were made by God\", but it \nappears that most scholars agree with Augustinian and Arian theology \nand read it as \"All things were made by Word\".\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T05:16:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D4A206B.3040500@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI don't think this agrees with trinitarian doctrine; all three Persons are\nuncreated, but the Father is the maker of heaven and earth. The Son and the\nHoly Spirit inform and influence but don't seem to directly create." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what the role of the HS is in creation, but John's Gospel\nmakes clear the role of the Son (the Word): \"Through him were all\nthings created.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D4A48B9.5020501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T06:18:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/2/2011 11:16 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think this agrees with trinitarian doctrine; all three Persons are\nuncreated, but the Father is the maker of heaven and earth. The Son and the\nHoly Spirit inform and influence but don't seem to directly create." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what the role of the HS is in creation, but John's Gospel\nmakes clear the role of the Son (the Word): \"Through him were all\nthings created.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes; as The Word, He says the way it is going to be. However, by \ndefinition, all Christians affirm that the Father is the one who Makes \nwhen they say the Creed.\n\nI suppose this could be a product of the ambiguity between \"everything \nmaker\" and \"all ruler\". I would agree that the Logos rules all is the \nintent of the Scriptures; perhaps the Father and Son jointly inaugurate \ncreation, with the Maker speaking the Logos. I can't locate my \ninterlinear just now to verify, but it could explain the plural \"elohim\" \nin use." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T08:20:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D4A48B9.5020501@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- Hmmm...that's interesting. Is it understood among Jews that YHWH is a \nHebrew form of Jove?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy religious education ended around the time I was 14. I suspect serious students of\njudaism eventually get into the mysticism of the name YHWH. As mentioned, that word \nwas never, ever once brought up in my religious education. I might have asked once why\n\"Our Lord\" was rendered as an unprounceable two letters and was told \"just say 'Adonai'.\nSo I did. From then on I questioned it as much as I questioned what \"allegiance\" means\nin our USA Pledge of Allegiance.\n \nA basic tenet of Judaism (as I think Jeff alludes to) is that Jews were the first to \nrecognize God and monotheism and are his chosen people. There is no way in heck younger\njews are going to be made aware that there might be parallel or even earlier recognitions\nof the one true God by other peoples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of all\". It \nseems logically inconsistent that these could be separate persons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, I am only a novice in these areas, but my understanding among those who believe in\nseparate beings is that God/Increate is a being of pure spirit while the Demiurge created\nall the material things we see. Maybe God created the raw material but the demiurge shaped\nit? I dunno. The Dionysus concept appears earlier than the Greek pantheon and then after it\nand has persisted in minority form ever since. I know there are pagan sorts who believe he \nwill ascend to his foremost place again after this temporary Apollonian, paternalistic phase \nof Judeo-Christian-Muslim dominance has faded. (connecting Jahweh with Jove/Jupiter/Zeus as\na once again temporary Father god who will fade before the more balanced lord of opposites,\nmale/female dark/light Dionysus, Great God Pan, whatever.\n \nWolfe uses the terms Increate, Pancreator AND Demiurge in BotNS. I can understand why modern\nChristians would assume these are meant to be exactly the same thing but I can't be sure of that.\nHe has said his Christian beliefs are not exactly traditional. He has said he has some belief that \nthe gods of mythology are real in some sense. He has said he wanted to explore what the world would \nbe like if there was no Jesus. Putting these together, I get the sense that Briah is a place with no \nJesus..well, no Christ anyway. So it retains some of the problems and fantastically interesting story\npossibilities of our own pre-Christian earth. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-03T12:06:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<326DDE2D-B096-4AEC-B347-9E6FA2CBF5CE@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Son of Witz\" \nOn Feb 2, 2011, at 4:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, I am a bit more focused on BotNS, and as Roy nicely points out, \nthere is a use of \"God\"\nin that story. But it is associated with the Increate, not the \nPancreator. And I think it is\nsignificant that these two are not necessarily the same in BotNS as they \nmight be in modern\nChristianity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of all\". It \nseems logically inconsistent that these could be separate persons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have understood them to mean the same thing. The Uncreated Creator of \nAll made the Creation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it is impossible that there could be a religion in which they \nare different - but I don't see any indication that this is so. The two \nnames seem to be used in identical contexts, and are never contrasted by any \nspeaker.\n\nImagine a book about our world in which the names 'God' and 'Satan' were \nused. We would soon notice that these referred to different entities, at \nleast according to the conceptions of the public at large. Nothing like \nthis is apparent in BotNS.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T13:24:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Imagine a book about our world in which the names 'God' and 'Satan' were \nused. We would soon notice that these referred to different entities, at \nleast according to the conceptions of the public at large. Nothing like \nthis is apparent in BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI never noticed a difference in previous readings. But then I wasn't looking for them.\nI did notice the word \"Demiurge\" used in a similar context which I found to be a head-\nscratcher. I think that would be a good future project- finding if Increate and \nPancreator are used in slightly different contexts in BotNS. \n \nSomebody was suggesting the craziness of the idea that each Wolfean universe might\nhave a separate creator. But my sense of how things are put together in the Sun series\nactually seems to suggest that very thing.\n \nJust checked Wikipedia for \"Manvantara\" and found this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Each Manvantara is created and ruled by a specific Manu, who in turn is created by Brahma, \nthe Creator himself. Manu creates the world, and all its species during that period of time, \neach Manvantara lasts the lifetime of a Manu, upon whose death, Brahma creates another Manu \nto continue the cycle of Creation or Shristi...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "....After that the creator, Brahma starts his cycle of creation all over again, in an endless cycle \nof creation followed by Destruction for which Shiva, Hindu God of destruction, and also renewal, \nis invoked towards the end of each such cycle [5]." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOf course Wolfe could have borrowed the word \"manvantara\" without meaning it to hold much of the \nHindu meaning of the word. But having independently come to the conclusion that Briah has a separate \ndemiurge that created it, distinct from our own universe, I find it difficult to dismiss the\ncongruence. I can see Brahma=Increate and Manu=demiurge in BotNS.\n \nNot sure if \"Pancreator\" works better for Brahma or the Manu of a particular universe. Perhaps that\nfuture project will shed light on that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D4AC93F.6000701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T15:26:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D4A48B9.5020501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes; as The Word, He says the way it is going to be. However, by \ndefinition, all Christians affirm that the Father is the one who Makes \nwhen they say the Creed. I suppose this could be a product of the \nambiguity between \"everything maker\" and \"all ruler\". I would agree \nthat the Logos rules all is the intent of the Scriptures; perhaps the \nFather and Son jointly inaugurate creation, with the Maker speaking \nthe Logos. I can't locate my interlinear just now to verify, but it \ncould explain the plural \"elohim\" in use." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is an error (within Augustinian theology) to think of Father, Son, \nand Holy Spirit as though they were different persons comprising a \nsingle entity...like Potto, Lemur, and Loris comprising the Ayuntamiento \n(I'm not saying you are making this mistake. I'm actually not sure.). \nJesus said \"I and the Father are one\" and \"If you have seen me, you have \nseen the Father\". When the introduction of the Gospel of John says \"The \nWord was with God and the Word was God\" I think the implication is that \nit is irrelevant whether you say \"The Father made the World\" or \"The Son \nmade the World\". The two are equivalent in that sense and either \nstatement is true.\n\nYou bring up an interesting point,however. Creeds and laws are \nindicators of controversies within a sect or society. I wonder what \nissue the First Council of Nicea was dealing with when they settle on \n\"The Father Almighty, Maker of all things\" and \"The Son of God...by whom \nall things were made.\"\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-02-03T19:59:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Man Lee, put Re: in your subject headers already. There is SURELY a pref in your program." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 3, 2011, at 12:20 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of all\". It \nseems logically inconsistent that these could be separate persons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I am only a novice in these areas, but my understanding among those who believe in\nseparate beings is that God/Increate is a being of pure spirit while the Demiurge created\nall the material things we see. Maybe God created the raw material but the demiurge shaped\nit? I dunno. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I need to go back and see where Demiurge is used. IIRC it is something Thecla says. Anyone else?\n\nDemiurgos is a false or half creator.\nSo, in a Gnostic worldview, YHVH is a entity distinctly separate from the Godhead. That is, there is a true, uncreated prime mover, but that isn't the god of Abraham. The Demiurgos is deluded, thinking itself the most-high, but it is the living abortion of Sophia. This is a problematic heresy from the official view, of course, because, then \"who the F is YHVH and how did he dupe us?\". But gnostics then have the Logos issuing from the true Godhead as a saviour for those trapped in the demiurge's creation.\n\nSo, when a character uses Demiurge, they most likey do NOT mean to equate it with Pancreator or Increate, because, theologically, if one uses the term, it implies understanding the difference in ontological levels." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D4B13EE.8020604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-03T20:45:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Increate\" means \"not created\". \"Pancreator\" means \"creator of all\". It\nseems logically inconsistent that these could be separate persons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I am only a novice in these areas, but my understanding among those who believe in\nseparate beings is that God/Increate is a being of pure spirit while the Demiurge created\nall the material things we see. Maybe God created the raw material but the demiurge shaped\nit? I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I need to go back and see where Demiurge is used. IIRC it is something Thecla says. Anyone else?\n\nDemiurgos is a false or half creator.\nSo, in a Gnostic worldview, YHVH is a entity distinctly separate from the Godhead. That is, there is a true, uncreated prime mover, but that isn't the god of Abraham. The Demiurgos is deluded, thinking itself the most-high, but it is the living abortion of Sophia. This is a problematic heresy from the official view, of course, because, then \"who the F is YHVH and how did he dupe us?\". But gnostics then have the Logos issuing from the true Godhead as a saviour for those trapped in the demiurge's creation.\n\nSo, when a character uses Demiurge, they most likey do NOT mean to equate it with Pancreator or Increate, because, theologically, if one uses the term, it implies understanding the difference in ontological levels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is easy to think of \"demiurge\" as meaning \"half-creator\" because we \noften use \"demi\" to mean \"something less than\" or as synonymous with \n\"semi\" or \"hemi\". But actually it means only \"skilled worker\" or \n\"craftsman\". It comes from the Socratic Dialogues. Of course, with the \nnew understanding that Plato was a Pythagorean, perhaps its roots even \ndrawn from there. Anyway, the God of Genesis or the Logos of the Gospel \nof John could be properly called a \"demiurge\".\n\nAmong CERTAIN Christian Gnostics, the demiurge is something of a bad guy \nand something separate from the Increate/Pancreator. He is a created \nbeing who made the world. Manicheanism is seen as the name brand of such \nphilosophies. However, in many (most?) Gnostic philosophies--even \nChristian ones--this is not the case. In fact, in a lot them, the world \nwas made by multiple demiurges called archons.\n\nSo the question is, was Wolfe riffing off one of the particular \n\"anti-Semitic\" Gnosticisms or another more generic brand?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-04T13:20:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Merger", "in_reply_to": "<4D4B13EE.8020604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: It is easy to think of \"demiurge\" as meaning \"half-creator\" because we \noften use \"demi\" to mean \"something less than\" or as synonymous with \n\"semi\" or \"hemi\". But actually it means only \"skilled worker\" or \n\"craftsman\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, it was this definition, plus the Short Sun's explicit association of The Outsider \nwith Dionysus (Pan) that steered me toward Father Inire as a focus for this entity in\nBotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It comes from the Socratic Dialogues. Of course, with the \nnew understanding that Plato was a Pythagorean, perhaps its roots even \ndrawn from there. Anyway, the God of Genesis or the Logos of the Gospel \nof John could be properly called a \"demiurge\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Among CERTAIN Christian Gnostics, the demiurge is something of a bad guy \nand something separate from the Increate/Pancreator. He is a created \nbeing who made the world. Manicheanism is seen as the name brand of such \nphilosophies. However, in many (most?) Gnostic philosophies--even \nChristian ones--this is not the case. In fact, in a lot them, the world \nwas made by multiple demiurges called archons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBeing from a Western culture, my limited knowledge of gnosticism was focused on Judeo-Christian \nPlatonic versions before this Wolfe stuff started creeping into my consciousness. My current sense \nis that gnoticism was quite further reaching, roughly encompassing Alexander's empire from India to \nEurope and originating as an amalgam of the beliefs held among the divergent people in this area.\nThus the Greek/Judeo-Christian version might be considered a minority (though the spread of \nChristianity seems to have carried a version on its underbelly)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So the question is, was Wolfe riffing off one of the particular \n\"anti-Semitic\" Gnosticisms or another more generic brand?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think we can get clues from the word choices of Wolfe. As previoiusly mentioned, the \"manvantaras\"\nand their mini-creators might fit the picture. The Kabbalic terms Abaddon, Yesod and Briah and Tzadkiel\nbring us back to the Judeo-Christian realm with heaven, hell, demons and angels. The Cumaean's reference \nto \"The Abraxas\" comes from Egyptian/Coptic traditions and may be the origin of the \"Seventeen Stones\" of \nCadroe and Megatherians.\n \nThe idea of mini-demiurges or archons running around, getting things done seems to parallel Pan's ability \nto multiply himself into a horde of assistants. Could be the basis for Father Inire (and Abaia/The Mother/Scylla) \nable to do something similar. And why the Autarch attempts to copy this ability in inferior, human form, while\nTzadkiel seems to do so in superior (faster, more flexible) form.\n \n \nWikipedia has a pretty informative, organized article on gnosticism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<418563.53077.qm@web161814.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-06T23:53:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian\n\tarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just writing to grumble that the comments are closed on this article on SF at the cusp of breaking into consideration for the Booker Prize. Someone mentions Wolfe in the comments in pretty simplistic terms and my blood boiled when I couldn't comment. just thought I would share, since I can't post there to respond.\n\nhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/feb/02/science-fiction-literary-canon\n\nThis twaddle here made my stomach churn:\n\"resurgence 27 says\n4 February 2011 1:36AM\nquote from somebody else here:\n\"If a SF author wrote as well as Kelman or Banville they would win the Booker. It's as simple as that.\"\n\nExactly! Are there terrific works of sci-fi and fantasy out there? Yes. But even the best of them cannot stand toe to toe with the best of literary fiction. The writers of the former tend to be so drunk on ideas, concepts and general razzle-dazzle that love of, and attention to, language for its own sake is lost. I love Gene Wolfe and James Blish, for instance -- love, love, love -- but are either of them half the writer that Peter Carey or Marilynne Robinson is? No.\"\n\n\nHalf the writer Peter Carey or Marilynne Robinson is??!!!!!! ARGHGHGHGHGGH\nwhat insufferable asinine nonsense. Wanted to respond, read Latro in the Mist twice, read Herodotus, see the sublime use of language, the interesting use of subject material, the reason for Latro's depression and the manumission scene, read Wolfe's beautiful characterization, his intelligent reassignation of tropes, who else can do that? Ever? If Wolfe were liberal he would probably be more popular but to say he isn't half the writer Peter Carey or MARILYNNE ROBINSON is made my blood pressure go up. More like ten times the writer either are.\n\nI see a name on these lists of awarded authors sometimes, and I think back to his attempted defense of Wolfe in that cretinous cancer boy incident a few years ago, were I felt like he was outgunned and couldn't even express why Wolfe was great. Must get my tylenol and pepto.\n\nOf all the asinine tripe.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5E7C716A-934A-4F7A-93B3-1CA215AEE4DA@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T00:38:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian\n\tarticle", "in_reply_to": "<418563.53077.qm@web161814.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Literary fiction is entitled to its pretensions. That is, after all, what distinguishes one made up story from another sufficient to call it \"literary.\"\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 6, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nJust writing to grumble that the comments are closed on this article on SF at the cusp of breaking into consideration for the Booker Prize. Someone mentions Wolfe in the comments in pretty simplistic terms and my blood boiled when I couldn't comment. just thought I would share, since I can't post there to respond.\n\nhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/feb/02/science-fiction-literary-canon\n\nThis twaddle here made my stomach churn:\n\"resurgence 27 says\n4 February 2011 1:36AM\nquote from somebody else here:\n\"If a SF author wrote as well as Kelman or Banville they would win the Booker. It's as simple as that.\"\n\nExactly! Are there terrific works of sci-fi and fantasy out there? Yes. But even the best of them cannot stand toe to toe with the best of literary fiction. The writers of the former tend to be so drunk on ideas, concepts and general razzle-dazzle that love of, and attention to, language for its own sake is lost. I love Gene Wolfe and James Blish, for instance -- love, love, love -- but are either of them half the writer that Peter Carey or Marilynne Robinson is? No.\"\n\n\nHalf the writer Peter Carey or Marilynne Robinson is??!!!!!! ARGHGHGHGHGGH\nwhat insufferable asinine nonsense. Wanted to respond, read Latro in the Mist twice, read Herodotus, see the sublime use of language, the interesting use of subject material, the reason for Latro's depression and the manumission scene, read Wolfe's beautiful characterization, his intelligent reassignation of tropes, who else can do that? Ever? If Wolfe were liberal he would probably be more popular but to say he isn't half the writer Peter Carey or MARILYNNE ROBINSON is made my blood pressure go up. More like ten times the writer either are.\n\nI see a name on these lists of awarded authors sometimes, and I think back to his attempted defense of Wolfe in that cretinous cancer boy incident a few years ago, were I felt like he was outgunned and couldn't even express why Wolfe was great. Must get my tylenol and pepto.\n\nOf all the asinine tripe.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<204039.62838.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T01:04:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian\n\tarticle", "in_reply_to": "<5E7C716A-934A-4F7A-93B3-1CA215AEE4DA@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 2/6/11, Lane Haygood wrote:\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian article\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 4:38 PM\nLiterary fiction is entitled to its\npretensions. That is, after all, what distinguishes one made\nup story from another sufficient to call it \"literary.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess. But then you know there are these grants and stuff, like Vollman getting 50,000 tax free for five years, for, as you said, creating a made up story. Just reeks of ... injustice? I don't know. But those pretentions are so ... repetitive and boring? The best SF is sometimes pretentious in novel and interesting ways.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T02:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian article", "in_reply_to": "<204039.62838.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Half the writer Peter Carey or Marilynne Robinson is??!!!!!! ARGHGHGHGHGGH" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh. I thought equating Wolfe with James Blish was the real insult ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T02:44:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian\n\tarticle", "in_reply_to": "<204039.62838.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SF to me has no significant differences from \"literary\" fiction. Sure,\nthere are stylistic conventions and structural differences, but those are\nthere in the difference between a frame story and first-person narrative,\nfor example. Each \"genre,\" so to speak, may contain different story\nstructures, literary techniques, etc. And plenty of genre fiction is\nuninteresting schlock... but so is your average perusal of the literary\nfiction section. Good writers are good writers are good writers, no matter\nwhat they write.\n\nAnd I'm reminded of the Wolfe quote that what we call \"sf\" is what was once\ncalled \"literature.\" For instance, if Homer were to write \"The Odyssey\"\ntoday, it would be called epic quest fantasy. The same for the Kalevala or\nthe Eddas, which were Tolkien's primary influences.\n\nAnd yeah, it is unjust that sf, for entirely political reasons, gets short\nshrift from prize committees and critics and other image conscious types.\n On the other hand, their approval of what I read was never requested, nor\nis it important to me, although I will continue to tell anyone who will\nlisten that there are truly wonderful writers working in sf (Wolfe, Le Guin,\nBakker, Lynch, etc.).\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On Sun, 2/6/11, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian\narticle" } ] }, { "message_id": "<534055.33821.qm@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T02:50:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian\n\tarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 2/6/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n \nHeh. I thought equating Wolfe with James Blish was the real\ninsult ;- ). ???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that too. His examples are just off the wall to me all around. Picking out probably the most lyrical SF guy, comparing him to a guy who was never regarded for prose but for a few okay \"idea\" SF stories, and then saying they can't stand toe to toe with lit that is a thousand times more banal than anything Wolfe could produce even asleep kind of just threw me for a loop. If he had never read Wolfe I could forgive it, but its like he just read Operation Ares or something. Wolfe has so many poignant quotes in every medium imaginable I just can't imagine you would use his name as an example of how the genre doesn't match up in quality. \n\nEven simple meditations in Wolfe are often given a veneer of depth that I find sorely lacking in the form fiction literary novel. Regular literature seems so flat and obvious after re-reading Wolfe's best stuff a few times. And he rarely falls into the trap of Clute's Appleseed: some interesting referential and verbal pyrotechnics atop a story so shallow re-reading might possibly be a waste of time. I do feel like Appleseed might have been the triumph of weirdness over substance to some degree, something Harrison's Light avoided, yet even a pretty good (IMO) work of SF like Light seems a bit flat to me in direct comparison with Wolfe. Davidson, Lafferty, and Ellison are all great great writers, too, if a bit different than Wolfe, and the lack of effort given to their study when mostly repetitive dull drivel receives literary accolades and awards always buggered my mind.\n\nI would never argue that Sterne's Tristram Shandy and Dostoyevsky and Faulkner and Nabokov and Mishima weren't great, but Wolfe certainly belongs in their echelon, without a doubt. How many boring papers does there really have to be about Pamela? Fielding already wrote everything worth writing about it in Shamela. There was a list a few years ago that was something like 1001 books to read before you die, and it had multiple books by douglas adams, peake, ballard, updike, even that novel about masturbation Portnoy's complaint, but not ONE wolfe book. It didn't have Shakespeare either, but come on, that just isn't right. \n \n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5021FD.2090204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T16:46:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian\n\tarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's worth noting that as far back as the 1970s Wolfe said that the only \nsignificant market for Short Stories anymore was in the SF genre (you'd \nhave to include Fantasy and Horror in that category I think). Certainly \nthis is true for stories that /experiment/ with the *art* of \nstorytelling. I just picked up the 'Swords & Dark Magic' anthology this \nweekend and was reminded of the number and variety of anthologies in the \nSF&F section each year--compared to those in the \"Literary Fiction\" section.\n\nThe high-schoolish, careful observances of labels and clubby borders is \na sign of an art in decay--as anyone who has closely observed the nature \nof poetry publishing can tell you.\n\nu+16b9\n\nPS: As an aside, I recall someone who frequently writes for \"genre\" \nwhile maintaining the respect of \"literary\" markets. I recently read \nNeil Gaiman's (ed.) \"Stories\" anthology and have decided that if I never \nread another Joyce Carol Oats story, that will probably be just fine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/6/2011 8:44 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nSF to me has no significant differences from \"literary\" fiction. \n Sure, there are stylistic conventions and structural differences, but \nthose are there in the difference between a frame story and \nfirst-person narrative, for example. Each \"genre,\" so to speak, may \ncontain different story structures, literary techniques, etc. And \nplenty of genre fiction is uninteresting schlock... but so is your \naverage perusal of the literary fiction section. Good writers are \ngood writers are good writers, no matter what they write.\n\nAnd I'm reminded of the Wolfe quote that what we call \"sf\" is what was \nonce called \"literature.\" For instance, if Homer were to write \"The \nOdyssey\" today, it would be called epic quest fantasy. The same for \nthe Kalevala or the Eddas, which were Tolkien's primary influences.\n\nAnd yeah, it is unjust that sf, for entirely political reasons, gets \nshort shrift from prize committees and critics and other image \nconscious types. On the other hand, their approval of what I read was \nnever requested, nor is it important to me, although I will continue \nto tell anyone who will listen that there are truly wonderful writers \nworking in sf (Wolfe, Le Guin, Bakker, Lynch, etc.).\n\nLH" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D502EBF.4010806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T17:41:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian\n\tarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I never understood any kind of border patrol when it comes to music.\n~ Bob Dylan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2011 11:42 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI'm definitely with Lane on this.\nIt's the same with musical sub-genres. Just play good music, I don't \ncare how you need to categorize it for the marketplace.\nThese preceived categories indicate nothing about the intrinsic \nquality of the work.\nI'm reading a James Ellroy \"Crime Novel\" right now. Bah! The thing \nscorches!\n\n~witz\n\nOn Feb 6, 2011, at 6:44 PM, Lane Haygood > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "SF to me has no significant differences from \"literary\" fiction. \n Sure, there are stylistic conventions and structural differences, \nbut those are there in the difference between a frame story and \nfirst-person narrative, for example. Each \"genre,\" so to speak, may \ncontain different story structures, literary techniques, etc. And \nplenty of genre fiction is uninteresting schlock... but so is your \naverage perusal of the literary fiction section. Good writers are \ngood writers are good writers, no matter what they write.\n\nAnd I'm reminded of the Wolfe quote that what we call \"sf\" is what \nwas once called \"literature.\" For instance, if Homer were to write \n\"The Odyssey\" today, it would be called epic quest fantasy. The same \nfor the Kalevala or the Eddas, which were Tolkien's primary influences.\n\nAnd yeah, it is unjust that sf, for entirely political reasons, gets \nshort shrift from prize committees and critics and other image \nconscious types. On the other hand, their approval of what I read \nwas never requested, nor is it important to me, although I will \ncontinue to tell anyone who will listen that there are truly \nwonderful writers working in sf (Wolfe, Le Guin, Bakker, Lynch, etc.).\n\nLH\n\nOn Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote:\n\n\n\n --- On Sun, 2/6/11, Lane Haygood > wrote:\n\n > From: Lane Haygood >\n > Subject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to\n guardian article" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-02-07T17:42:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian\n\tarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm definitely with Lane on this.\nIt's the same with musical sub-genres. Just play good music, I don't care how you need to categorize it for the marketplace.\nThese preceived categories indicate nothing about the intrinsic quality of the work.\nI'm reading a James Ellroy \"Crime Novel\" right now. Bah! The thing scorches!\n\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 6, 2011, at 6:44 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nSF to me has no significant differences from \"literary\" fiction. Sure, there are stylistic conventions and structural differences, but those are there in the difference between a frame story and first-person narrative, for example. Each \"genre,\" so to speak, may contain different story structures, literary techniques, etc. And plenty of genre fiction is uninteresting schlock... but so is your average perusal of the literary fiction section. Good writers are good writers are good writers, no matter what they write.\n\nAnd I'm reminded of the Wolfe quote that what we call \"sf\" is what was once called \"literature.\" For instance, if Homer were to write \"The Odyssey\" today, it would be called epic quest fantasy. The same for the Kalevala or the Eddas, which were Tolkien's primary influences. \n\nAnd yeah, it is unjust that sf, for entirely political reasons, gets short shrift from prize committees and critics and other image conscious types. On the other hand, their approval of what I read was never requested, nor is it important to me, although I will continue to tell anyone who will listen that there are truly wonderful writers working in sf (Wolfe, Le Guin, Bakker, Lynch, etc.).\n\nLH\n\nOn Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On Sun, 2/6/11, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lane Haygood \nSubject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardian article" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-02-07T22:17:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D5021FD.2090204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, James Wynn wrote:\nPS: As an aside, I recall someone who frequently writes for \"genre\" while \nmaintaining the respect of \"literary\" markets. I recently read Neil Gaiman's \n(ed.) \"Stories\" anthology and have decided that if I never read another Joyce \nCarol Oats story, that will probably be just fine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, but _Mysteries of Winterthurn_ and _A Bloodsmoor Romance_ are \ngreat SF novels, the latter is pretty well steampunk. My only remaining \nspecific memory of _ABR_: officials think an electric bed sounds too \ncomfortable a method of execution, and refuse to buy it.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5072AE.70507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T22:31:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "PS: As an aside, I recall someone who frequently writes for \"genre\" \nwhile maintaining the respect of \"literary\" markets. I recently read \nNeil Gaiman's (ed.) \"Stories\" anthology and have decided that if I \nnever read another Joyce Carol Oats story, that will probably be just \nfine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps, but _Mysteries of Winterthurn_ and _A Bloodsmoor Romance_ are \ngreat SF novels, the latter is pretty well steampunk. My only \nremaining specific memory of _ABR_: officials think an electric bed \nsounds too comfortable a method of execution, and refuse to buy it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll accept your opinion of her novels. I really only know her from her \nshort stories..genre and literary. I recognize her technical ability, \nbut I consistently have walked away from her stories feeling unbuzzed. \nIt's like listening to a John Cage symphony. \"Fossil-Figures\" was just \nthe final straw.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2012992830-1297119822-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-926884566-@bda614.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-02-07T23:03:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D5072AE.70507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I knew John Cage....used to go Mushroom hunting with he and merce cunningham....the prepared piano pieces? Hauntingly beautiful when played by someone who knows what they are doing...imho\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn \nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.netDate: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 16:31:10 " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To: The Urth Mailing List\nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "PS: As an aside, I recall someone who frequently writes for \"genre\" \nwhile maintaining the respect of \"literary\" markets. I recently read \nNeil Gaiman's (ed.) \"Stories\" anthology and have decided that if I \nnever read another Joyce Carol Oats story, that will probably be just \nfine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps, but _Mysteries of Winterthurn_ and _A Bloodsmoor Romance_ are \ngreat SF novels, the latter is pretty well steampunk. My only \nremaining specific memory of _ABR_: officials think an electric bed \nsounds too comfortable a method of execution, and refuse to buy it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll accept your opinion of her novels. I really only know her from her \nshort stories..genre and literary. I recognize her technical ability, \nbut I consistently have walked away from her stories feeling unbuzzed. \nIt's like listening to a John Cage symphony. \"Fossil-Figures\" was just \nthe final straw.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T23:10:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D5072AE.70507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can't resist chiming in with the chorus - crap writing is crap writing and\ngood writing is good writing and genres have zero to do with this. Similar\nto what some others are saying here, Gene Wolfe has nearly ruined a lot of\nperfectly decent fiction for me as most things pale and lose their lustre in\ncomparison to his best stuff. To my mind his greatest works artistically\nsits side by side with more accepted classics of modern fiction that I\nrespect and admire - say, Lord of the Flies, Old Man and the Sea, The Pearl,\nCormac McCarthy's novels, Flannery O'Connor's short stories, etc. I totally\nunderstand that people don't like certain subject matter and themes (e.g. I\ndespise Jane Austen's material), but it's still possible to recognise the\ngenuine excellence or genius of a writer whilst just not being the least bit\ninterested in their work (indeed, a lot of Shakespeare is like that for me).\n That's the artistically reasonable courtesy I wish people would extend to\nexcellent writers like Wolfe and Le Guin and others who just happen to\nlargely write material that usually more or less fits into the f./s.f. genre\n(though so many also partake of other genres and more 'mainstream' themes\nsimultaneously). If your skin crawls at fantastic, speculative themes, so\nbe it. But if one is going to claim to be any kind of judge of literary\nmerit, then one must look past such personal preferences when considering\nwhether a writer is a good craftsman.\n\nOne more flourish to crown this rant: I myself have written (lyrics) for a\nfew decades and aspire to write fiction and other prose, and I study English\nLiterature and the art of writing, and I am simply a devoted lover of\nexquisite CRAFT when it comes to prose style, the talent and skill to simply\nwrite the pants off nearly everyone else sentence by sentence and paragraph\nby paragraph with the unfaltering brilliance of one's prose. And I hereby\ntender my considered testimony as an artist and student of writing that GENE\nWOLFE IS IN A VERY SMALL LEAGUE OF ALMOST MIRACULOUSLY GOOD WRITERS OF\nINIMITABLE PROSE. Open just about any book by him to just about any page\nand read for no more than a page or so and one finds his writing sincerely a\nliterary *meal* for the literarily hungry. Do I rhapsodise and hyperbolise?\n Perhaps some. But not too much, I think.\n\nDOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D507EE4.3080306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-07T23:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<2012992830-1297119822-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-926884566-@bda614.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Hamm, honestly, when I wrote that analogy, I KNEW it would pull you \nfrom the woodwork. And, yet, it fit.\nI listen to much of his stuff and say, \"He seems to know what he's \ndoing. I just don't want to hear him do it.\"\n\nWow, mushroom hunting. What a stereotypical activity to do with John \nCage! It's like saying \"I fought bulls with Hemmingway\" or \"I entered a \nfrog jumping competition with Mark Twain.\"\n\n;-D" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2011 5:03 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:\nI knew John Cage....used to go Mushroom hunting with he and merce cunningham....the prepared piano pieces? Hauntingly beautiful when played by someone who knows what they are doing...imho\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.netDate: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 16:31:10" } ] }, { "message_id": "<290841945-1297121616-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1386689425-@bda614.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-02-07T23:33:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D507EE4.3080306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha...! Not THOSE kind of mushrooms... Who was it who said that Richard Wagners' music is \"Better than it sounds\" —\nIf you all want to stretch your ears try to find a copy of \"New Sound Forms for Piano\"..J Cage, conlan Nancarow's pieces for player piano and Ben Johnsons' pieces for micro-tonal piano...just make sure that there are no young, impressionable children in the room.\n...Then listen to anything by Arvo Part to calm down.....\nSo...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn \nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.netDate: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:23:16 \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle\n\nMr. Hamm, honestly, when I wrote that analogy, I KNEW it would pull you \nfrom the woodwork. And, yet, it fit.\nI listen to much of his stuff and say, \"He seems to know what he's \ndoing. I just don't want to hear him do it.\"\n\nWow, mushroom hunting. What a stereotypical activity to do with John \nCage! It's like saying \"I fought bulls with Hemmingway\" or \"I entered a \nfrog jumping competition with Mark Twain.\"\n\n;-D" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2011 5:03 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:\nI knew John Cage....used to go Mushroom hunting with he and merce cunningham....the prepared piano pieces? Hauntingly beautiful when played by someone who knows what they are doing...imho\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.netDate: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 16:31:10\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle\nI'll accept your opinion of her novels. I really only know her from her\nshort stories..genre and literary. I recognize her technical ability,\nbut I consistently have walked away from her stories feeling unbuzzed.\nIt's like listening to a John Cage symphony. \"Fossil-Figures\" was just\nthe final straw.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<77839E60-1C48-4A63-B7BE-E15C208728C7@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T00:11:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D507EE4.3080306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 7, 2011, at 5:23 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nMr. Hamm, honestly, when I wrote that analogy, I KNEW it would pull you from the woodwork. And, yet, it fit.\nI listen to much of his stuff and say, \"He seems to know what he's doing. I just don't want to hear him do it.\"\n\nWow, mushroom hunting. What a stereotypical activity to do with John Cage! It's like saying \"I fought bulls with Hemmingway\" or \"I entered a frog jumping competition with Mark Twain.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he got annoying, could you ask him to sing 4'33\" to you?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<69AD9797-FA18-43C7-AD32-71C3EF419EFF@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-02-08T00:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<290841945-1297121616-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1386689425-@bda614.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 7, 2011, at 3:33 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:\n...Then listen to anything by Arvo Part to calm down....." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one I have gets me a bit edgy. So haunting, with sustained tension.\nKanon Pokajanen. Amazing and beautiful, but, wow... " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D50E057.3080102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T06:19:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<290841945-1297121616-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1386689425-@bda614.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2011 5:33 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:\nHa...! Not THOSE kind of mushrooms... Who was it who said that Richard Wagners' music is \"Better than it sounds\" ?\nIf you all want to stretch your ears try to find a copy of \"New Sound Forms for Piano\"..J Cage, conlan Nancarow's pieces for player piano and Ben Johnsons' pieces for micro-tonal piano...just make sure that there are no young, impressionable children in the room.\n...Then listen to anything by Arvo Part to calm down.....\nSo...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh no! I thought Cage's hobby of collecting wild mushrooms one of those \nwell-known facts about him. Maybe not so much. Perhaps that's just one \nmore piece of loose trivia in my attic. The writer Francis Shaeffer \nclaimed it was a minor philosophical quandary for Cage since if he chose \nto hunt mushrooms the way he deliberately composed music, he would soon \nbe a dead man. Okay. I'll check out the pieces you mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question is bigger than that. In order for there to be a Quetzal, \nthere had to first be a human encounter with a wild inhuma. It is \narguable (although some refuse to credit it as possible) that sentient \ninhumi would make a flight to the Whorl in the same manner that they \nassaulted Blue. But it is not possible (I think) that a wild inhuma \nwould that.\n\nIt has always seemed obvious to me that some of the Cargo had to have \nmade an expeditionary landing at Green shortly after the arrival at the \nShort Sun. And I believe one of those was Tussah. I used to think maybe \nHyacinth had made such a trip as well, and that was how she knew \ncolonists were not in for a pleasant surprise. Now I think something \nelse, but surely there _was_ such an expedition. If the Neighbors are to \nbe believed then they manipulated that expeditionary landing as well as \nothers. Since that would be difficult for alien-appearing Neighbors, \nthat manipulation must have been done by the Rajan himself.\n\nIt is plainly evident that the Rajan can Time-travel, but is there any \nevidence that the Rajan went back that far in time? Yes, because he is \nin the the Grandmother's Tale in \"In Green's Jungles\". Furthermore, we \nknow Marble/Moly/Magnesia went with him back to the Whorl, and I think \nwe see her, in Dream-Travel, in \"Nightside of the Long Sun\" as Teasel's \nmother, Dahlia who was a student at the palaestra around 20 years before \nSilk arrived: Teasel is 13. Her mother would have been Marble's student \nwhen she was 13. If one supposes she had Teasel 7 years after being \nMarble's student that's 20 years. Of course, chems don't sleep so the \nDream-travel would have had to occur at the very moment of her final \nbreak-down.\n\nWhy is Dahlia Marble in Dream-travel?\n\n1) Marble twice references that used to look like Dahlia or Teasel:\n\n\"I used to have a face like yours. I would say like Dahlia's, but she \nwas before your time.\nLike Teasel's or Nettle's, and there were things in it, little bits of \nalnico, that let\nme really smile or frown when I moved them with the coils behind my \nfaceplate.\nBut all that's gone except for the coils.\" ~ Calde of the Long Sun\n\n\"I was the maid, the sibyls' maid, when the first bios moved into the city.\nI got our cenoby ready for them, and in those days I used to look like--like\nDahlia, I nearly said, sib, but you never knew Dahlia. Like Teasel,\na little.\" She laughed nervously. \"Can you imagine me looking like\nTeasel? But I did, then.\" ~ Exodus from the Long Sun\n\nTwice = an important clue although we can argue about what.\n\n2) Teasel's mother is unnamed, but her father, Martin, is not. However, \nteasels and dahlias are both astrerids which implies the two are closely \nrelated. And, of course, Teasel and Dahlia are similar in appearance.\n\n3) Teasel is twice said to belong to Marble:\n\"Her name's Teasel, and she's one of Marble's bunch.\" Maytera Rose \nsniffed again. ~ Nightside of the Long Sun\n\n\"Teasel's one of Maytera Marble's, very likely the best of them.\" ~ \nCalde of the Long Sun\n\n4) Marble's real name is \"Magnesia\", and, except for silica, magnesia is \nthe most common element found in asteroids. And a dahlia is an asterid.\n\n\nwe are told about her appearing in the form of Teasel and Dahlia.\nThat is, Maytera Marble said she used to look just like Teasel and Dahlia:\nMagnesia = major element in asteriods = Asterids = Teasel and Dahlia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2011 5:33 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:\nHa...! Not THOSE kind of mushrooms... Who was it who said that Richard Wagners' music is \"Better than it sounds\" ?\nIf you all want to stretch your ears try to find a copy of \"New Sound Forms for Piano\"..J Cage, conlan Nancarow's pieces for player piano and Ben Johnsons' pieces for micro-tonal piano...just make sure that there are no young, impressionable children in the room.\n...Then listen to anything by Arvo Part to calm down.....\nSo...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn\nSender:urth-bounces at lists.urth.netDate: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:23:16" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D50E3B2.8090000@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T06:33:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<290841945-1297121616-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1386689425-@bda614.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/7/2011 5:33 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:\nHa...! Not THOSE kind of mushrooms... Who was it who said that Richard Wagners' music is \"Better than it sounds\" ?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was Twain; his trip to Bayreuth: \nhttp://www.twainquotes.com/Travel1891/Dec1891.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you all want to stretch your ears try to find a copy of \"New Sound Forms for Piano\"..J Cage, conlan Nancarow's pieces for player piano" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh lord! I'm from Nancarrow's home town, but it's not bias that makes me \nsay, unlike Cage at least Nancarrow's music has music in it. Quite a lot \nin fact!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D50F4D2.20405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T07:46:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D50E057.3080102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just remembered that it is difficult for Dahlia to be Teasel's mother \nbecause Mint encounters her (and an old man whom I presume to be \nHammerstone) at the end of Exodus. That's not really a show-stopper \nanymore than Severian encountering Apu-Punchau is a show-stopper, since \nthey're Time-travelers. But it _is_cumbersome. Still, it's better than \nsaying that Teasel is Marble as well. Especially since Teasel /seems/ to \nhave a mother and father." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question is bigger than that. In order for there to be a Quetzal, \nthere had to first be a human encounter with a wild inhuma. It is \narguable (although some refuse to credit it as possible) that sentient \ninhumi would make a flight to the Whorl in the same manner that they \nassaulted Blue. But it is not possible (I think) that a wild inhuma \nwould that.\n\nIt has always seemed obvious to me that some of the Cargo had to have \nmade an expeditionary landing at Green shortly after the arrival at \nthe Short Sun. And I believe one of those was Tussah. I used to think \nmaybe Hyacinth had made such a trip as well, and that was how she knew \ncolonists were not in for a pleasant surprise. Now I think something \nelse, but surely there _was_ such an expedition. If the Neighbors are \nto be believed then they manipulated that expeditionary landing as \nwell as others. Since that would be difficult for alien-appearing \nNeighbors, that manipulation must have been done by the Rajan himself.\n\nIt is plainly evident that the Rajan can Time-travel, but is there any \nevidence that the Rajan went back that far in time? Yes, because he is \nin the the Grandmother's Tale in \"In Green's Jungles\". Furthermore, we \nknow Marble/Moly/Magnesia went with him back to the Whorl, and I think \nwe see her, in Dream-Travel, in \"Nightside of the Long Sun\" as \nTeasel's mother, Dahlia who was a student at the palaestra around 20 \nyears before Silk arrived: Teasel is 13. Her mother would have been \nMarble's student when she was 13. If one supposes she had Teasel 7 \nyears after being Marble's student that's 20 years. Of course, chems \ndon't sleep so the Dream-travel would have had to occur at the very \nmoment of her final break-down.\n\nWhy is Dahlia Marble in Dream-travel?\n\n1) Marble twice references that used to look like Dahlia or Teasel:\n\n\"I used to have a face like yours. I would say like Dahlia's, but she \nwas before your time.\nLike Teasel's or Nettle's, and there were things in it, little bits of \nalnico, that let\nme really smile or frown when I moved them with the coils behind my \nfaceplate.\nBut all that's gone except for the coils.\" ~ Calde of the Long Sun\n\n\"I was the maid, the sibyls' maid, when the first bios moved into the \ncity.\nI got our cenoby ready for them, and in those days I used to look \nlike--like\nDahlia, I nearly said, sib, but you never knew Dahlia. Like Teasel,\na little.\" She laughed nervously. \"Can you imagine me looking like\nTeasel? But I did, then.\" ~ Exodus from the Long Sun\n\nTwice = an important clue although we can argue about what.\n\n2) Teasel's mother is unnamed, but her father, Martin, is not. \nHowever, teasels and dahlias are both astrerids which implies the two \nare closely related. And, of course, Teasel and Dahlia are similar in \nappearance.\n\n3) Teasel is twice said to belong to Marble:\n\"Her name's Teasel, and she's one of Marble's bunch.\" Maytera Rose \nsniffed again. ~ Nightside of the Long Sun\n\n\"Teasel's one of Maytera Marble's, very likely the best of them.\" ~ \nCalde of the Long Sun\n\n4) Marble's real name is \"Magnesia\", and, except for silica, magnesia \nis the most common element found in asteroids. And a dahlia is an \nasterid." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T08:24:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D507EE4.3080306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Francis Schaeffer mentioned on a Gene Wolfe website. Cool. Schaeffer's\ncommentary on Cage was the first thing I thought of when you mentioned\npicking mushrooms with him.\n\nDOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:23 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nMr. Hamm, honestly, when I wrote that analogy, I KNEW it would pull you\nfrom the woodwork. And, yet, it fit.\nI listen to much of his stuff and say, \"He seems to know what he's doing. I\njust don't want to hear him do it.\"\n\nWow, mushroom hunting. What a stereotypical activity to do with John Cage!\nIt's like saying \"I fought bulls with Hemmingway\" or \"I entered a frog\njumping competition with Mark Twain.\"\n\n;-D\n\nOn 2/7/2011 5:03 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I knew John Cage....used to go Mushroom hunting with he and merce\ncunningham....the prepared piano pieces? Hauntingly beautiful when played\nby someone who knows what they are doing...imho\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.netDate: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 16:31:10" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7BE8EF1A8A164915A317F0D495B2D79F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-08T09:24:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<290841945-1297121616-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1386689425-@bda614.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nSo...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Neighbours brought inhumi to the Whorl. We are told in Chapter 11 of \n_Return to the Whorl_:\n\n\n***********************************************\nThen, \"Sometime back like you I go, mysire?\"\n\n\"Back to Viron, you mean, Vadsig?\"\n\n\"To Viron, yes, mysire. Also to Grotestad. To go to the Long Sun Whorl I \nwould like. Always of it you talk, and cook, and my old master and mistress. \nIn Grotestad they were born, mysire, but never it I have seen.\"\n\nI told her it was possible she would.\n\n\"There the Vanished People went?\"\n\nI nodded.\n\n\"To greet us it was?\"\n\n\"You might put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a good \ndeal about us - and infect us with inhumi -\"\n\n*************************************************\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D51825D.5030801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T17:50:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<7BE8EF1A8A164915A317F0D495B2D79F@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This quote only says the Neighbors were infected humanity with inhumi. \nIt doesn't say they brought them on the Whorl. That's one way they could \nhave done it--if beings who can dream-travel would have their own \nspaceships and if the Whorl would allow an alien spacecraft to dock. \nThis quote could be also interpreted as \"They supported the Plan of Pas \nto bring humanity to Green.\" This quote is a gold coin in the bucket--it \ntells us about the Neighbor's motives--it doesn't explain how and when \nthey accomplished it. Anyone got any more evidence?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Neighbours brought inhumi to the Whorl. We are told in Chapter 11 \nof _Return to the Whorl_:\n***********************************************\nThen, \"Sometime back like you I go, mysire?\"\n\"Back to Viron, you mean, Vadsig?\"\n\"To Viron, yes, mysire. Also to Grotestad. To go to the Long Sun Whorl \nI would like. Always of it you talk, and cook, and my old master and \nmistress. In Grotestad they were born, mysire, but never it I have seen.\"\nI told her it was possible she would.\n\"There the Vanished People went?\"\nI nodded.\n\"To greet us it was?\"\n\"You might put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a \ngood deal about us - and infect us with inhumi -\"\n*************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2149E76E74244EA190C76BBD168E4C54@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-08T18:08:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D51825D.5030801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nThis quote only says the Neighbors were infected humanity with inhumi. It \ndoesn't say they brought them on the Whorl. That's one way they could have \ndone it--if beings who can dream-travel would have their own spaceships \nand if the Whorl would allow an alien spacecraft to dock. This quote could \nbe also interpreted as \"They supported the Plan of Pas to bring humanity \nto Green.\" This quote is a gold coin in the bucket--it tells us about the \nNeighbor's motives--it doesn't explain how and when they accomplished it. \nAnyone got any more evidence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It *does* say the Neighbours went to the Whorl. \"There\" in \"There the \nVanished People went?\" is the Whorl.\n\nI've added a bit more to the quoted text for more context. It seems to make \nit pretty clear that they did indeed visit the Whorl and left inhumi among \nthe people there.\n\nHow else could Quetzal have gotten there?\n\nYou have suggested that there was a landing on Green shortly after the Whorl \narrived in the system. Such a landing is certainly possible, although there \nis no textual evidence for it. But even if there were such a landing, it \nseems implausible that they would bring Quetzal back - and even more \nimplausible that everyone would completely forget about the event while \nQuetzal somehow became an augur and rose through the ranks of the local \nchurch!\n\nBy the way, Silk can dream travel and at thee end of _Return_ he is looking \nfor a spaceship. As for the Vanished People, maybe they landed on the \nsurface and bored their way in.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Neighbours brought inhumi to the Whorl. We are told in Chapter 11 of \n_Return to the Whorl_:\n***********************************************\nThen, \"Sometime back like you I go, mysire?\"\n\"Back to Viron, you mean, Vadsig?\"\n\"To Viron, yes, mysire. Also to Grotestad. To go to the Long Sun Whorl I \nwould like. Always of it you talk, and cook, and my old master and \nmistress. In Grotestad they were born, mysire, but never it I have seen.\"\nI told her it was possible she would.\n\"There the Vanished People went?\"\nI nodded.\n\"To greet us it was?\"\n\"You might put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a good \ndeal about us - and infect us with inhumi -\"\n\"Bad thing!\"\n\"Before they ventured to greet even a few of us.\n\"Bad it was,\" Vadsig agreed with Oreb.\"To leave inhumi among us?\" I shook \nmy head. \"It was a small price to pay for two whorls, and it enabled the \nNeighbors to gauge much more accurately the differences between our race \nand their own.\"\n*************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<606427.69650.qm@web161820.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T18:08:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<7BE8EF1A8A164915A317F0D495B2D79F@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Tue, 2/8/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSo...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This passage is important but it is contradictory, at the very end of RTTW:\np 384-395\n\n\"\"I was was thinking about the whorl you described ... about the whorl we visited ... We of the People ....\" {says Juganu}\n\"the bird said \"Not man. People? Never! No Whorl,\" and I knew it was Scylla. \"No there. Good! Bad things!\"\nJuganu sat up. \"We were there! They brought us! We're everywhere!\"\n\nHere, Scylla in Oreb says that there were no inhumi on old Urth, and Juganu says they were there, some \"they\" brought them.\n\nThe inhumi could have been in their liana like state, morbidly dead state, unable to breed in the insufficient warmth of Urth, but still lingering latently, and loaded on the whorl with other seeds or shrubbery.\n\nIn Calde of the Long Sun it tels how Quetzal's \"parent tree\" got planted in the whorl.\n\nepiphany p 19 \"\"in order that she would climb his tree, Patera. The man likewise. Their story's not over becuase they haven't climbed down.\"\n\nepiphany page 23 \"the tamarind he had caused to be planted there twenty years perviously ... their parent tree, nourshed by his own efforts, was of more than sifficient size now, and a fount of joy to him: a sheltering presence, a memorial of home, the highraod to freedom ... even in this downpour the tree was safer, though he could fly.\"\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<420109.89754.qm@web161811.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T18:18:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<606427.69650.qm@web161820.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "sorry for all the typos in the quotes. Should look back before hitting send. Anyway, even though it is conceivable to me that some \"they\" (vanished gods?) brought the inhumi to old Urth as Juganu says, I think it more likely that the whorl has just been in orbit a very very long time, becuase I don't see how Quetzal could have come to sentience under the conditions of the Whorl without sufficient heat and breeding grounds from Green (which is, of course, much warmer than Old Urth and capable of supporting all kinds of fecund tree monstrosities).\n\nI still favor the idea that the inhumi are pretty much all that's left of humans, that in a morlock and eloi evolutionary scheme they are the lower of the branches, the parasitic vines on the more noble trees. But you know, not many like that schema so it doesn't have to be utilized to figure out how Quetzal got there, I don't think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 2/8/11, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" } ] }, { "message_id": "<677923.15837.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-02-08T18:19:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<2149E76E74244EA190C76BBD168E4C54@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "forgive me...I thought the dilemma was that if Quetzal got on board the whorl when only when it was in orbit, 40 years would not be enough time for hm top became so ingrained in the society and rise to his position of power...\n\n???????? ? ? \n\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUART.HAMM\n\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Tue, 2/8/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 10:08 AM\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nThis quote only says the Neighbors were infected humanity with inhumi. It doesn't say they brought them on the Whorl. That's one way they could have done it--if beings who can dream-travel would have their own spaceships and if the Whorl would allow an alien spacecraft to dock. This quote could be also interpreted as \"They supported the Plan of Pas to bring humanity to Green.\" This quote is a gold coin in the bucket--it tells us about the Neighbor's motives--it doesn't explain how and when they accomplished it. Anyone got any more evidence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It *does* say the Neighbours went to the Whorl. \"There\" in \"There the Vanished People went?\" is the Whorl.\n\nI've added a bit more to the quoted text for more context. It seems to make it pretty clear that they did indeed visit the Whorl and left inhumi among the people there.\n\nHow else could Quetzal have gotten there?\n\nYou have suggested that there was a landing on Green shortly after the Whorl arrived in the system. Such a landing is certainly possible, although there is no textual evidence for it. But even if there were such a landing, it seems implausible that they would bring Quetzal back - and even more implausible that everyone would completely forget about the event while Quetzal somehow became an augur and rose through the ranks of the local church!\n\nBy the way, Silk can dream travel and at thee end of _Return_ he is looking for a spaceship. As for the Vanished People, maybe they landed on the surface and bored their way in.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Neighbours brought inhumi to the Whorl. We are told in Chapter 11 of _Return to the Whorl_:\n***********************************************\nThen, \"Sometime back like you I go, mysire?\"\n\"Back to Viron, you mean, Vadsig?\"\n\"To Viron, yes, mysire. Also to Grotestad. To go to the Long Sun Whorl I would like. Always of it you talk, and cook, and my old master and mistress. In Grotestad they were born, mysire, but never it I have seen.\"\nI told her it was possible she would.\n\"There the Vanished People went?\"\nI nodded.\n\"To greet us it was?\"\n\"You might put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a good deal about us - and infect us with inhumi -\"\n\"Bad thing!\"\n\"Before they ventured to greet even a few of us.\n\"Bad it was,\" Vadsig agreed with Oreb.\"To leave inhumi among us?\" I shook my head. \"It was a small price to pay for two whorls, and it enabled the Neighbors to gauge much more accurately the differences between our race and their own.\"\n*************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5193A6.6070608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:04:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Grotestad & Grandecitta", "in_reply_to": "<4D51825D.5030801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Someone wrote (08-02-2011 17:50):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Neighbours brought inhumi to the Whorl. We are told in Chapter 11\nof _Return to the Whorl_:\n***********************************************\nThen, \"Sometime back like you I go, mysire?\"\n\"Back to Viron, you mean, Vadsig?\"\n\"To Viron, yes, mysire. Also to Grotestad. To go to the Long Sun Whorl I\nwould like. Always of it you talk, and cook, and my old master and\nmistress. In Grotestad they were born, mysire, but never it I have seen.\"\nI told her it was possible she would.\n\"There the Vanished People went?\"\nI nodded.\n\"To greet us it was?\"\n\"You might put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a\ngood deal about us - and infect us with inhumi -\"\n*************************************************" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Curious... the two whorl city names we do know how to parse both mean 'Big \nCity'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D519499.1000900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:08:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<677923.15837.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/8/2011 12:19 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nforgive me...I thought the dilemma was that if Quetzal got on board \nthe whorl when only when it was in orbit, 40 years would not be enough \ntime for hm top became so ingrained in the society and rise to his \nposition of power..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see this as a problem at all. The many ways humanity is not an \nequal to the inhumi in intelligence. Within a few hours, Krait has \n\"tamed\" the resurrected HORN to the extent that he passes Krait off to \neveryone as his son. The inhumi on Green have largely subdued all of \nhumanity as their slaves. Quetzal only needed to tame the right \nhuman...someone who had the ability to place him as prolocutor. \nHmm...who would have had that power?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/8/2011 12:08 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThis passage is important but it is contradictory, at the very end of RTTW:\np 384-395\n\"\"I was was thinking about the whorl you described ... about the whorl we visited ... We of the People ....\" {says Juganu}\n\"the bird said \"Not man. People? Never! No Whorl,\" and I knew it was Scylla. \"No there. Good! Bad things!\"\nJuganu sat up. \"We were there! They brought us! We're everywhere!\"\nHere, Scylla in Oreb says that there were no inhumi on old Urth, and Juganu says they were there, some \"they\" brought them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Scylla's authority on this is dubious. Her own Prolocutor was an \ninhume.\nBut when Juganu says \"We were there.\" That is a statement that is \nsurprisingly open to interpretation as well. Juganu is an inhumi and he \nwas on Urth. But you could hauled him into a room and stripped him bare, \nand never found the inhume part of him. The Rajan states, in fact, that \nwhile in dream-travel, Jahlee is human. If the Neighbors brought the \ninhumi to Urth as Juganu says, then it is most likely they brought them \nthere in the same way the Rajan brought inhumi to Urth.\n\nIn fact, \"infecting\" humanity with inhumi could well mean adding such \nhumanish inhumi to Urth's population.\nWhen you don't jump to conclusions about what a text means (I'm not \nsaying /you/ have, Marc), all sorts of troubling scenarios present \nthemselves.\n\nBut the question is, did Juganu _meet_ any inhumi on Urth? He seemed \nvery sure about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The inhumi could have been in their liana like state, morbidly dead state, unable to breed in the insufficient warmth of Urth, but still lingering latently, and loaded on the whorl with other seeds or shrubbery. In Calde of the Long Sun it tels how Quetzal's \"parent tree\" got planted in the whorl.\n\n\n\nepiphany p 19 \"\"in order that she would climb his tree, Patera. The man likewise. Their story's not over becuase they haven't climbed down.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IMO this quote is an important bit of evidence that the Neighbors and \ninhumi were involved in the launching of the Whorl.\nHowever...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "epiphany page 23 \"the tamarind he had caused to be planted there twenty years perviously ... their parent tree, nourshed by his own efforts, was of more than sifficient size now, and a fount of joy to him: a sheltering presence, a memorial of home, the highraod to freedom ... even in this downpour the tree was safer, though he could fly.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The tamarind tree was planted only 20 years previously. But Quetzal has \nbeen around for 40 years at least.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:10:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D519499.1000900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stuart Hamm: forgive me...I thought the dilemma was that if Quetzal got on board the whorl when \nonly when it was in orbit, 40 years would not be enough time for hm top became so ingrained in \nthe society and rise to his position of power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with Marc in finding evidence that Inhumi were present on the Whorl from the beginning in\nsome form or another. I never like the sort of theory which relies on a \"maybe they drilled \nthrough the hull\" kind of thing. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6226AF7C00654326A3DF2CC3B00BC44F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:16:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Grotestad & Grandecitta", "in_reply_to": "<4D5193A6.6070608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nSomeone wrote (08-02-2011 17:50):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Neighbours brought inhumi to the Whorl. We are told in Chapter 11\nof _Return to the Whorl_:\n***********************************************\nThen, \"Sometime back like you I go, mysire?\"\n\"Back to Viron, you mean, Vadsig?\"\n\"To Viron, yes, mysire. Also to Grotestad. To go to the Long Sun Whorl I\nwould like. Always of it you talk, and cook, and my old master and\nmistress. In Grotestad they were born, mysire, but never it I have seen.\"\nI told her it was possible she would.\n\"There the Vanished People went?\"\nI nodded.\n\"To greet us it was?\"\n\"You might put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a\ngood deal about us - and infect us with inhumi -\"\n*************************************************" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Curious... the two whorl city names we do know how to parse both mean 'Big \nCity'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's also Urbs, which I suppose just means 'city'. And 'Viron' might come \nfrom 'environment' (c.f. Brian Aldiss's 'Total Environment').\n\nMethinks Typhon's planners had the imagination typical of bureaucrats...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:23:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Grotestad & Grandecitta", "in_reply_to": "<6226AF7C00654326A3DF2CC3B00BC44F@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what it's worth, \"Viron\" is a Finnish word that refers to Estonia..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Someone wrote (08-02-2011 17:50):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The Neighbours brought inhumi to the Whorl. ?We are told in Chapter 11\nof _Return to the Whorl_:\n***********************************************\nThen, \"Sometime back like you I go, mysire?\"\n\"Back to Viron, you mean, Vadsig?\"\n\"To Viron, yes, mysire. Also to Grotestad. To go to the Long Sun Whorl I\nwould like. Always of it you talk, and cook, and my old master and\nmistress. In Grotestad they were born, mysire, but never it I have seen.\"\nI told her it was possible she would.\n\"There the Vanished People went?\"\nI nodded.\n\"To greet us it was?\"\n\"You might put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a\ngood deal about us - and infect us with inhumi -\"\n*************************************************" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Curious... the two whorl city names we do know how to parse both mean 'Big\nCity'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's also Urbs, which I suppose just means 'city'. And 'Viron' might come\nfrom 'environment' (c.f. Brian Aldiss's 'Total Environment').\n\nMethinks Typhon's planners had the imagination typical of bureaucrats...\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:24:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stuart Hamm: forgive me...I thought the dilemma was that if Quetzal got on \nboard the whorl when\nonly when it was in orbit, 40 years would not be enough time for hm top \nbecame so ingrained in\nthe society and rise to his position of power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm with Marc in finding evidence that Inhumi were present on the Whorl \nfrom the beginning in\nsome form or another. I never like the sort of theory which relies on a \n\"maybe they drilled\nthrough the hull\" kind of thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe they used a laser. The fact is, we are told they visited and left \ninhumi.\n\nAs for inhumi being on the Whorl from the beginning - apart from any \nevidential issues, the obvious question is why? Coals to Newcastle, no?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<507297.30234.qm@web161817.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:35:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 2/8/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nAs for inhumi being on the Whorl from the beginning - apart\nfrom any evidential issues, the obvious question is\nwhy? Coals to Newcastle, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'cuz green is urth. \n\nOh, sorry. Couldn't help myself.\n\nLet's put that aside for a bit.\n\nWhy aren't there any Vanished People in the Whorl? Just dropping off the vine kids?\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<004301cbc7c7$7aea8400$07ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:36:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D50F4D2.20405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn quoted and wrote:\nSo...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Neighbours brought inhumi to the Whorl. We are told in Chapter 11 of\n_Return to the Whorl_:\n\n\n***********************************************\nThen, \"Sometime back like you I go, mysire?\"\n\n\"Back to Viron, you mean, Vadsig?\"\n\n\"To Viron, yes, mysire. Also to Grotestad. To go to the Long Sun Whorl I\nwould like. Always of it you talk, and cook, and my old master and\nmistress.\nIn Grotestad they were born, mysire, but never it I have seen.\"\n\nI told her it was possible she would.\n\n\"There the Vanished People went?\"\n\nI nodded.\n\n\"To greet us it was?\"\n\n\"You might put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a good\ndeal about us - and infect us with inhumi -\"\n\n*************************************************" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite so. The inhumi were introduced into the LSW by the Neighbors.\nWindcloud was one of them:\n\n\"I was one of those who boarded your whorl when it neared our sun. In the\n_Whorl_, I made the acquaintance of many of your race, and I have known\nothers since, on both the whorls we once called ours.\" (RTTW, 232)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<55689.89000.qm@web161819.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:41:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<507297.30234.qm@web161817.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seriously though sometimes I do wonder if Wolfe retconned those notules into inhumi. Not many similarities but I never understood their presence on Urth, or why they were that one creature's wings like some kind of gestalt organism at the end of UoTNS.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D519DEB.5050901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:47:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Grotestad & Grandecitta", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/8/2011 1:23 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nFor what it's worth, \"Viron\" is a Finnish word that refers to Estonia..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/viron.htm" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T19:56:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Grotestad & Grandecitta", "in_reply_to": "<4D519DEB.5050901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks -- I had actually forgotten that that page even existed. Good stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 11:47 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 2/8/2011 1:23 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For what it's worth, \"Viron\" is a Finnish word that refers to Estonia..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/viron.htm\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<975443.72576.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-02-08T20:25:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D519499.1000900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What a great bunch of insights...thanks y'all...AND John Cage and Harpo Marx references...awesome\n\n???????? ? ? \n\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUART.HAMM\n\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Tue, 2/8/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 11:08 AM\nSo...how DID Quetzal get aboard the Whorl????" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/8/2011 12:19 PM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\nforgive me...I thought the dilemma was that if Quetzal got on board the whorl when only when it was in orbit, 40 years would not be enough time for hm top became so ingrained in the society and rise to his position of power..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see this as a problem at all. The many ways humanity is not an equal to the inhumi in intelligence. Within a few hours, Krait has \"tamed\" the resurrected HORN to the extent that he passes Krait off to everyone as his son. The inhumi on Green have largely subdued all of humanity as their slaves. Quetzal only needed to tame the right human...someone who had the ability to place him as prolocutor. Hmm...who would have had that power?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/8/2011 12:08 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThis passage is important but it is contradictory, at the very end of RTTW:\np 384-395\n\"\"I was was thinking about the whorl you described ... about the whorl we visited ... We of the People ....\" {says Juganu}\n\"the bird said \"Not man. People? Never! No Whorl,\" and I knew it was Scylla. \"No there. Good!? Bad things!\"\nJuganu sat up. \"We were there!? They brought us!? We're everywhere!\"\nHere, Scylla in Oreb says that there were no inhumi on old Urth, and Juganu says they were there, some \"they\" brought them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Scylla's authority on this is dubious. Her own Prolocutor was an inhume.\nBut when Juganu says \"We were there.\" That is a statement that is surprisingly open to interpretation as well. Juganu is an inhumi and he was on Urth. But you could hauled him into a room and stripped him bare, and never found the inhume part of him. The Rajan states, in fact, that while in dream-travel, Jahlee is human. If the Neighbors brought the inhumi to Urth as Juganu says, then it is most likely they brought them there in the same way the Rajan brought inhumi to Urth.\n\nIn fact, \"infecting\" humanity with inhumi could well mean adding such humanish inhumi to Urth's population.\nWhen you don't jump to conclusions about what a text means (I'm not saying /you/ have, Marc), all sorts of troubling scenarios present themselves.\n\nBut the question is, did Juganu? _meet_ any inhumi on Urth? He seemed very sure about it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The inhumi could have been in their liana like state, morbidly dead state, unable to breed in the insufficient warmth of Urth, but still lingering latently, and loaded on the whorl with other seeds or shrubbery. In Calde of the Long Sun it tels how Quetzal's \"parent tree\" got planted in the whorl.\n\n\n\nepiphany p 19 \"\"in order that she would climb his tree, Patera. The man likewise. Their story's not over becuase they haven't climbed down.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IMO this quote is an important bit of evidence that the Neighbors and inhumi were involved in the launching of the Whorl.\nHowever...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "epiphany page 23 \"the tamarind he had caused to be planted there twenty years perviously ... their parent tree, nourshed by his own efforts, was of more than sifficient size now, and a fount of joy to him: a sheltering presence, a memorial of home, the highraod to freedom ... even in this downpour the tree was safer, though he could fly.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The tamarind tree was planted only 20 years previously. But Quetzal has been around for 40 years at least.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T20:48:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<975443.72576.qm@web81407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: 'cuz green is urth. Oh, sorry. Couldn't help myself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, heh. And why should you? ;- )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why aren't there any Vanished People in the Whorl? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps there are. Maybe in electronic form? I think it would please \nJames if creatures with windy names were associated with Typhon/Pas.\n \nMy interpretation of Juganu's words is that the conflict/symbiosis\nbetween Neighbors and Inhumi has been going on for a long time and\nhas been carried to various other worlds giving rise to mythological \nstories on Urth and even Earth. Apollonian and Dionysian (light and dark)\ncontrasts go back to the orgins of the universes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do wonder if Wolfe retconned those notules into inhumi. Not many \nsimilarities but I never understood their presence on Urth, or why they \nwere that one creature's wings" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nEven more so for Shadow Children, perhaps\n \nI think the calling the wings \"notules\" could be metaphoric at one level. \nBut the presence of dark things that suck the light out of bright, shiny\nthings has a real mytho-religious meaning and is a repeating theme\nthroughout BotNS. Plus there is something funny going on in BotNS with\n\"blood bats\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- The inhumi were introduced into the LSW by the Neighbors.\nWindcloud was one of them:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I was one of those who boarded your whorl when it neared our sun. In the\n_Whorl_, I made the acquaintance of many of your race, and I have known\nothers since, on both the whorls we once called ours.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSure, that could be the answer. Better than boring through the hull, anyway.\nStill, there are some problems. First, how long ago was this Neighbor visit to \nthe Whorl? I agree with Stu there is a question of how long was the \ninfiltration and establishment by Quetzal. It seems pretty long. How long has \nthe Whorl been in orbit?\n \nSecond, if the Neighbors were on the Whorl in recent times, why isn't that\ndiscussed in Long Sun? The presence of Quetzal suggests certainly they made \nan appearance in Viron. At least loquacious Lemur or somebody should have made \nmention of the appearance of a creature with an indeterminate number of legs, heads, \nbodies, whatever. What form did the Neighbors (and Inhumi) take during this\ninfection? Who were the \"many\" acquaintances and why did we not hear from them? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1FE5B4E45B184500A72408CC3D1CD1DB@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-08T21:35:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nRoy C. Lackey\nThe inhumi were introduced into the LSW by the Neighbors.\nWindcloud was one of them:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I was one of those who boarded your whorl when it neared our sun. In the\n_Whorl_, I made the acquaintance of many of your race, and I have known\nothers since, on both the whorls we once called ours.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, that could be the answer. Better than boring through the hull, \nanyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do you mean \"better than boring through the hull?\" Windcloud said he \nwas on the Whorl - he doesn't say how he and his team got in.\n\nMaybe they obtained access by way of a lander or surface infrastructure \nassociated with one - or maybe they just bored a hole and popped up in the \ntunnels. All we know is they got in somehow. Given that their mission (as \nwe know from elsewhere) was to introduce inhumi, secrecy would probably have \nbeen paramount. In particular, it seems certain that they avoided contact \nwith the Crew (in fact, perhaps they knew nothing of the Crew)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still, there are some problems. First, how long ago was this Neighbor \nvisit to\nthe Whorl? I agree with Stu there is a question of how long was the\ninfiltration and establishment by Quetzal. It seems pretty long. How long \nhas\nthe Whorl been in orbit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pas died thirty years before the events of BotNS, but it's conceivable that \nthe Whorl was in-system for some significant time before that. Perhaps \nwhile the Gods warred, the Crew stood by rather than initiate exploration \nmissions etc.\n\nAccording to Windcloud, the Neighbours infiltrated the Whorl before it \nreached the system.\n\nFifty years seems feasible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, if the Neighbors were on the Whorl in recent times, why isn't that\ndiscussed in Long Sun? The presence of Quetzal suggests certainly they \nmade\nan appearance in Viron. At least loquacious Lemur or somebody should have \nmade\nmention of the appearance of a creature with an indeterminate number of \nlegs, heads,\nbodies, whatever. What form did the Neighbors (and Inhumi) take during \nthis\ninfection? Who were the \"many\" acquaintances and why did we not hear from \nthem?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lemur evidently knew nothing of the inhumis as such (though he knew one \npersonally). Rumours of their existence were pretty vague - and they were \npreying on humans, while the Neighbours presumably brought their own food.\n\nWe don't have any evidence from BotLS of the Neighbours talking to anyone - \nit's possible Wolfe simply didn't think to put it in. Still, many people \nsaw various mysterious visions on BotLS, and perhaps rumours of strange \neight-limbed beings would have been lost among the various ghosat stories \nand suchlike...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D51DA82.6010103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-09T00:06:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/8/2011 3:48 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why aren't there any Vanished People in the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps there are. Maybe in electronic form? I think it would please\nJames if creatures with windy names were associated with Typhon/Pas.\n\nMy interpretation of Juganu's words is that the conflict/symbiosis\nbetween Neighbors and Inhumi has been going on for a long time and\nhas been carried to various other worlds giving rise to mythological\nstories on Urth and even Earth. Apollonian and Dionysian (light and dark)\ncontrasts go back to the orgins of the universes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- The inhumi were introduced into the LSW by the Neighbors.\nWindcloud was one of them:\n\"I was one of those who boarded your whorl when it neared our sun. In the\n_Whorl_, I made the acquaintance of many of your race, and I have known\nothers since, on both the whorls we once called ours.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, that could be the answer. Better than boring through the hull, anyway.\nStill, there are some problems. First, how long ago was this Neighbor visit to\nthe Whorl? I agree with Stu there is a question of how long was the\ninfiltration and establishment by Quetzal. It seems pretty long. How long has\nthe Whorl been in orbit?\n\nSecond, if the Neighbors were on the Whorl in recent times, why isn't that\ndiscussed in Long Sun? The presence of Quetzal suggests certainly they made\nan appearance in Viron. At least loquacious Lemur or somebody should have made\nmention of the appearance of a creature with an indeterminate number of legs, heads,\nbodies, whatever. What form did the Neighbors (and Inhumi) take during this\ninfection? Who were the \"many\" acquaintances and why did we not hear from them? \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Whorl is a large place. Like Tzadkiel's Ship, it seems almost to \ncontain a universe, not a small planet. It has a cargo full of sheep, as \nwell as bays of clones and embryos to shepherd them.\n\nIt also has a crew or crews in the form of people like the flyers, \ncorrect? Is it unreasonable to assume that certain tribes aboard the \nLSW, especially those housed near its fore and aft ends and/or closer to \nits skin, are people the Neighbors might prefer to contact, avoiding the \nsheep themselves? Such people are accustomed to knowing things they do \nnot share with the sheep, but once the Neighbors made themselves \ngenerally known in the towns there would be no going back.\n\nThe timing of the LSW's arrival seems to encompass important events: (1) \ndetection by the Neighbors and their boarding/insertion of Quetzal (2) \nthe beginning of the Whorl's breakdown leading to its evacuation. I \ndon't think several decades is a long time for a large \nspaceship/asteroid to orbit a sun before these things happen, in a \nuniverse where there is no Lt. Uhura to announce incoming alien \nstarships to Captain Kirk. This isn't Rendezvous with Rama.\n\nBTW, is there a consensus on the exact relation of the planets Blue and \nGreen? Do they orbit one another as a single system, or do they orbit \nthe sun on opposite sides, as do Earth and Gor?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<784315.18854.qm@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-02-09T00:57:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<77839E60-1C48-4A63-B7BE-E15C208728C7@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "last word on Cage...my dad told me about this and here is the Wiki \"proof\"\nSubmitted for your amusement\n\nhttp://classicalconvert.com/2007/07/the-stupidest-music-lawsuit-ever-infringing-on-cages-433/\n\nPlagiarism of silence...YES!!!!!\n???????? ? ? \n\n\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Mon, 2/7/11, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, February 7, 2011, 4:11 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 7, 2011, at 5:23 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nMr. Hamm, honestly, when I wrote that analogy, I KNEW it would pull you from the woodwork. And, yet, it fit.\nI listen to much of his stuff and say, \"He seems to know what he's doing. I just don't want to hear him do it.\"\n\nWow, mushroom hunting. What a stereotypical activity to do with John Cage! It's like saying \"I fought bulls with Hemmingway\" or \"I entered a frog jumping competition with Mark Twain.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he got annoying, could you ask him to sing 4'33\" to you?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-09T01:47:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D51DA82.6010103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"BTW, is there a consensus on the exact relation of the planets Blue and\nGreen? Do they orbit one another as a single system, or do they orbit the\nsun on opposite sides, as do Earth and Gor?\"\n\nThey can't orbit each other or orbit on opposite sides of the sun because\nBlue and Green are farther apart and then get closer at conjunction.\n Conjunction occurs every 6 years (OBW, Ch 7), and Blue's year seems to be\nabout the same as a year on the Whorl.\n\nI'm not sure how Blue and Green move to produce this conjunction. If they\nare about the same distance from the sun but in different orbital planes,\nthey could at times be closer or more distant but conjunction would occur\ntwice a year. Perhaps Blue's orbit is circular and Green's is more\neliptical, resulting in the 6 year interval, but I haven't been able to\nfigure how this would work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:06 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nOn 2/8/2011 3:48 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Why aren't there any Vanished People in the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps there are. Maybe in electronic form? I think it would please\nJames if creatures with windy names were associated with Typhon/Pas.\n\nMy interpretation of Juganu's words is that the conflict/symbiosis\nbetween Neighbors and Inhumi has been going on for a long time and\nhas been carried to various other worlds giving rise to mythological\nstories on Urth and even Earth. Apollonian and Dionysian (light and dark)\ncontrasts go back to the orgins of the universes.\n\n Roy C. Lackey- The inhumi were introduced into the LSW by the Neighbors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Windcloud was one of them:\n\"I was one of those who boarded your whorl when it neared our sun. In the\n_Whorl_, I made the acquaintance of many of your race, and I have known\nothers since, on both the whorls we once called ours.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, that could be the answer. Better than boring through the hull,\nanyway.\nStill, there are some problems. First, how long ago was this Neighbor\nvisit to\nthe Whorl? I agree with Stu there is a question of how long was the\ninfiltration and establishment by Quetzal. It seems pretty long. How long\nhas\nthe Whorl been in orbit?\n\nSecond, if the Neighbors were on the Whorl in recent times, why isn't that\ndiscussed in Long Sun? The presence of Quetzal suggests certainly they\nmade\nan appearance in Viron. At least loquacious Lemur or somebody should have\nmade\nmention of the appearance of a creature with an indeterminate number of\nlegs, heads,\nbodies, whatever. What form did the Neighbors (and Inhumi) take during\nthis\ninfection? Who were the \"many\" acquaintances and why did we not hear from\nthem?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Whorl is a large place. Like Tzadkiel's Ship, it seems almost to\ncontain a universe, not a small planet. It has a cargo full of sheep, as\nwell as bays of clones and embryos to shepherd them.\n\nIt also has a crew or crews in the form of people like the flyers, correct?\nIs it unreasonable to assume that certain tribes aboard the LSW, especially\nthose housed near its fore and aft ends and/or closer to its skin, are\npeople the Neighbors might prefer to contact, avoiding the sheep themselves?\nSuch people are accustomed to knowing things they do not share with the\nsheep, but once the Neighbors made themselves generally known in the towns\nthere would be no going back.\n\nThe timing of the LSW's arrival seems to encompass important events: (1)\ndetection by the Neighbors and their boarding/insertion of Quetzal (2) the\nbeginning of the Whorl's breakdown leading to its evacuation. I don't think\nseveral decades is a long time for a large spaceship/asteroid to orbit a sun\nbefore these things happen, in a universe where there is no Lt. Uhura to\nannounce incoming alien starships to Captain Kirk. This isn't Rendezvous\nwith Rama.\n\nBTW, is there a consensus on the exact relation of the planets Blue and\nGreen? Do they orbit one another as a single system, or do they orbit the\nsun on opposite sides, as do Earth and Gor?\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 110208-0, 02/08/2011\nTested on: 2/8/2011 7:06:26 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D51F522.1070502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-09T02:00:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a stumper. Perhaps we know more about the planets of FHOC, and this \nwould shed some light on what Wolfe considers possible. ???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/8/2011 8:47 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\n\"BTW, is there a consensus on the exact relation of the planets Blue \nand Green? Do they orbit one another as a single system, or do they \norbit the sun on opposite sides, as do Earth and Gor?\"\n\nThey can't orbit each other or orbit on opposite sides of the sun \nbecause Blue and Green are farther apart and then get closer at \nconjunction. Conjunction occurs every 6 years (OBW, Ch 7), and Blue's \nyear seems to be about the same as a year on the Whorl.\n\nI'm not sure how Blue and Green move to produce this conjunction. If \nthey are about the same distance from the sun but in different orbital \nplanes, they could at times be closer or more distant but conjunction \nwould occur twice a year. Perhaps Blue's orbit is circular and \nGreen's is more eliptical, resulting in the 6 year interval, but I \nhaven't been able to figure how this would work.\n\nOn Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:06 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n\n\n BTW, is there a consensus on the exact relation of the planets\n Blue and Green? Do they orbit one another as a single system, or\n do they orbit the sun on opposite sides, as do Earth and Gor?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1D98E2C398854830BEB19325EE3A27DE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-09T02:38:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It can work if they have circular orbits that are quite close together, so that Green orbits their star in 6/7 of a Blue year. Green will go around the star slightly faster than Blue, so that Blue is falling further and further behind. After 6 Blue years, Blue will have made 6 orbits, while Green will have made 7 and caught up on Blue from behind.\n\nI don't know if two large planets with such similar orbital radii would be stable, but anyway it would fit the conjunction schedule, and Green would be a bit hotter than Blue (their temperatures would also depend on atmospheric composition).\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Jack Smith \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 1:47 AM\n Subject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle\n\n\n \"BTW, is there a consensus on the exact relation of the planets Blue and Green? Do they orbit one another as a single system, or do they orbit the sun on opposite sides, as do Earth and Gor?\"\n\n\n They can't orbit each other or orbit on opposite sides of the sun because Blue and Green are farther apart and then get closer at conjunction. Conjunction occurs every 6 years (OBW, Ch 7), and Blue's year seems to be about the same as a year on the Whorl.\n\n\n I'm not sure how Blue and Green move to produce this conjunction. If they are about the same distance from the sun but in different orbital planes, they could at times be closer or more distant but conjunction would occur twice a year. Perhaps Blue's orbit is circular and Green's is more eliptical, resulting in the 6 year interval, but I haven't been able to figure how this would work." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-09T03:29:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<1D98E2C398854830BEB19325EE3A27DE@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this explanation, but I don't think it would work. For bodies in\norbit around a central body, the orbital period is directly proportional to\nthe distance or radius from the central body. So if Green orbits in 6/7 of\na Blue year, then Green must be 6/7 of Blue's distance from the sun. If\nBlue is 90 million miles from the sun, then Green must orbit at 77 million\nmiles radius, which makes Green 13 million miles from Blue at closest\napproach. But we know that at conjunction the 2 planets are only 35,000\nleagues (105,000 miles) apart (In Green's Jungles, ch. 15)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nIt can work if they have circular orbits that are quite close together, so\nthat Green orbits their star in 6/7 of a Blue year. Green will go around\nthe star slightly faster than Blue, so that Blue is falling further and\nfurther behind. After 6 Blue years, Blue will have made 6 orbits, while\nGreen will have made 7 and caught up on Blue from behind.\n\nI don't know if two large planets with such similar orbital radii would be\nstable, but anyway it would fit the conjunction schedule, and Green would be\na bit hotter than Blue (their temperatures would also depend on atmospheric\ncomposition).\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n----- Original Message -----\n*From:* Jack Smith \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Wednesday, February 09, 2011 1:47 AM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to\nguardianarticle\n\n\"BTW, is there a consensus on the exact relation of the planets Blue and\nGreen? Do they orbit one another as a single system, or do they orbit the\nsun on opposite sides, as do Earth and Gor?\"\n\nThey can't orbit each other or orbit on opposite sides of the sun because\nBlue and Green are farther apart and then get closer at conjunction.\n Conjunction occurs every 6 years (OBW, Ch 7), and Blue's year seems to be\nabout the same as a year on the Whorl.\n\nI'm not sure how Blue and Green move to produce this conjunction. If they\nare about the same distance from the sun but in different orbital planes,\nthey could at times be closer or more distant but conjunction would occur\ntwice a year. Perhaps Blue's orbit is circular and Green's is more\neliptical, resulting in the 6 year interval, but I haven't been able to\nfigure how this would work.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8AC6534E159C45C9B82792E595D233FD@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-09T03:36:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot about that.\n\nBut one or both could have an elliptical orbit.\n\nAgain, I don't know whether precession would make this unrealistic or not. And 35000 leagues is incredibly, dangerously close for two Earth-sized planets.\n\nBut in terms of basic mechanics, a series of conjunctions should be possible (for story purposes, I think it would probably be sufficient if the series lasted a few centuries).\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Jack Smith \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 3:29 AM\n Subject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle\n\n\n I like this explanation, but I don't think it would work. For bodies in orbit around a central body, the orbital period is directly proportional to the distance or radius from the central body. So if Green orbits in 6/7 of a Blue year, then Green must be 6/7 of Blue's distance from the sun. If Blue is 90 million miles from the sun, then Green must orbit at 77 million miles radius, which makes Green 13 million miles from Blue at closest approach. But we know that at conjunction the 2 planets are only 35,000 leagues (105,000 miles) apart (In Green's Jungles, ch. 15).\n\n\n On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n It can work if they have circular orbits that are quite close together, so that Green orbits their star in 6/7 of a Blue year. Green will go around the star slightly faster than Blue, so that Blue is falling further and further behind. After 6 Blue years, Blue will have made 6 orbits, while Green will have made 7 and caught up on Blue from behind.\n\n I don't know if two large planets with such similar orbital radii would be stable, but anyway it would fit the conjunction schedule, and Green would be a bit hotter than Blue (their temperatures would also depend on atmospheric composition).\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Jack Smith \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 1:47 AM\n Subject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle\n\n\n \"BTW, is there a consensus on the exact relation of the planets Blue and Green? Do they orbit one another as a single system, or do they orbit the sun on opposite sides, as do Earth and Gor?\" \n\n\n They can't orbit each other or orbit on opposite sides of the sun because Blue and Green are farther apart and then get closer at conjunction. Conjunction occurs every 6 years (OBW, Ch 7), and Blue's year seems to be about the same as a year on the Whorl.\n\n\n I'm not sure how Blue and Green move to produce this conjunction. If they are about the same distance from the sun but in different orbital planes, they could at times be closer or more distant but conjunction would occur twice a year. Perhaps Blue's orbit is circular and Green's is more eliptical, resulting in the 6 year interval, but I haven't been able to figure how this would work.\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D52272C.3010600@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-09T05:33:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<8AC6534E159C45C9B82792E595D233FD@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/8/2011 9:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI forgot about that.\nBut one or both could have an elliptical orbit.\nAgain, I don't know whether precession would make this unrealistic or\nnot. And 35000 leagues is incredibly, dangerously close for two\nEarth-sized planets.\nBut in terms of basic mechanics, a series of conjunctions should be\npossible (for story purposes, I think it would probably be sufficient if\nthe series lasted a few centuries)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They could be paired in a horseshoe orbit:\n\nhttp://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=210" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D523E1E.1010207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-09T07:11:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/8/2011 9:29 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nI like this explanation, but I don't think it would work. For bodies in\norbit around a central body, the orbital period is directly proportional\nto the distance or radius from the central body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Orbital period varies with the 3/2 power of the radius:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_period" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-02-09T07:15:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D52272C.3010600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 8 Feb 2011, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 2/8/2011 9:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I forgot about that.\nBut one or both could have an elliptical orbit.\nAgain, I don't know whether precession would make this unrealistic or\nnot. And 35000 leagues is incredibly, dangerously close for two\nEarth-sized planets.\nBut in terms of basic mechanics, a series of conjunctions should be\npossible (for story purposes, I think it would probably be sufficient if\nthe series lasted a few centuries)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They could be paired in a horseshoe orbit:\n\nhttp://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=210" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And\n\nhttp://iopscience.iop.org/1538-3881/129/3/1724/204215.text.html\n\nBut these guys keep trying to make them crash into each other ;)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-09T11:04:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D52272C.3010600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the link to horseshoe orbits! This might work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 2/8/2011 9:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I forgot about that.\nBut one or both could have an elliptical orbit.\nAgain, I don't know whether precession would make this unrealistic or\nnot. And 35000 leagues is incredibly, dangerously close for two\nEarth-sized planets.\nBut in terms of basic mechanics, a series of conjunctions should be\npossible (for story purposes, I think it would probably be sufficient if\nthe series lasted a few centuries)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They could be paired in a horseshoe orbit:\n\nhttp://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=210\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1D44D6669EA441B78E6880BA3C756D6F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-09T12:26:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think horseshoes are a bit problematic. If you look at Cruithne's orbit, its actual distance from Earth varies on a short scale with a period of one year. Over a longer term, the average distance varies. Since Cruithne's orbital period is one year, there's no room for meaningful six-year conjunctions.\n\nHence I'm inclined to prefer the simpler concept: Blue has a circular orbit similar to the Earth's, while Green has an elliptical orbit with a period 6/7 that of Blue. Ignoring precession, this can give a conjunction every six years, while they are far apart the rest of the time.\n\nAs another possibility, we could imagine that there are dark stars of some kind (black holes or dense dark matter objects, for example) present in the system - these might induce interesting orbital motions in the hadronic planets.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Jack Smith \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 11:04 AM\n Subject: Re: (urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle\n\n\n Thanks for the link to horseshoe orbits! This might work.\n\n\n\n On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n On 2/8/2011 9:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n I forgot about that.\n But one or both could have an elliptical orbit.\n Again, I don't know whether precession would make this unrealistic or\n not. And 35000 leagues is incredibly, dangerously close for two\n Earth-sized planets.\n But in terms of basic mechanics, a series of conjunctions should be\n possible (for story purposes, I think it would probably be sufficient if\n the series lasted a few centuries).\n\n\n\n They could be paired in a horseshoe orbit:\n\n http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=210" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D52894C.6030604@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-09T12:32:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D52272C.3010600@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stunning.\n\nSo in the case of the asteroid and Earth, it's not that the asteroid \nturns around, but that it falls behind until Earth catches it. Damn.\n\n105,000 miles is still dangerously close, but this scheme gets the \nplanets closer than a 6/7 orbital distance would." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/9/2011 12:33 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 2/8/2011 9:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I forgot about that.\nBut one or both could have an elliptical orbit.\nAgain, I don't know whether precession would make this unrealistic or\nnot. And 35000 leagues is incredibly, dangerously close for two\nEarth-sized planets.\nBut in terms of basic mechanics, a series of conjunctions should be\npossible (for story purposes, I think it would probably be sufficient if\nthe series lasted a few centuries)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They could be paired in a horseshoe orbit:\n\nhttp://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=210" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D52B3BF.8050302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-09T15:33:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<1D44D6669EA441B78E6880BA3C756D6F@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/9/2011 6:26 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI think horseshoes are a bit problematic. If you look at Cruithne's\norbit, its actual distance from Earth varies on a short scale with a\nperiod of one year. Over a longer term, the average distance varies.\nSince Cruithne's orbital period is one year, there's no room for\nmeaningful six-year conjunctions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's because tiny Cruithne is too small to influence Earth in a \ndetectable way. Janus and Epimethius, however, are similar in mass and \ndo their thing in four years." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-09T15:59:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D52B3BF.8050302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 2/9/2011 6:26 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think horseshoes are a bit problematic. If you look at Cruithne's\norbit, its actual distance from Earth varies on a short scale with a\nperiod of one year. Over a longer term, the average distance varies.\nSince Cruithne's orbital period is one year, there's no room for\nmeaningful six-year conjunctions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's because tiny Cruithne is too small to influence Earth in a \ndetectable way. Janus and Epimethius, however, are similar in mass and do \ntheir thing in four years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But their orbital period around Saturn is only 0.7 days... so those four \nyears are equivalent to about 2000 years on Blue!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5312DA.5040102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-09T22:19:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/9/2011 9:59 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 2/9/2011 6:26 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think horseshoes are a bit problematic. If you look at Cruithne's\norbit, its actual distance from Earth varies on a short scale with a\nperiod of one year. Over a longer term, the average distance varies.\nSince Cruithne's orbital period is one year, there's no room for\nmeaningful six-year conjunctions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's because tiny Cruithne is too small to influence Earth in a\ndetectable way. Janus and Epimethius, however, are similar in mass and\ndo their thing in four years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But their orbital period around Saturn is only 0.7 days... so those four\nyears are equivalent to about 2000 years on Blue!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That may depend heavily on odd power functions, like the orbital period \nformula earlier; the dual orbit discovery was pre-internet (1978) so I'm \nhaving a devil of a time locating anything analytical about it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8796D1A4C16E4AEE811726BB8FFEFD56@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-09T22:52:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<4D5312DA.5040102@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 2/9/2011 9:59 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 2/9/2011 6:26 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think horseshoes are a bit problematic. If you look at Cruithne's\norbit, its actual distance from Earth varies on a short scale with a\nperiod of one year. Over a longer term, the average distance varies.\nSince Cruithne's orbital period is one year, there's no room for\nmeaningful six-year conjunctions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's because tiny Cruithne is too small to influence Earth in a\ndetectable way. Janus and Epimethius, however, are similar in mass and\ndo their thing in four years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But their orbital period around Saturn is only 0.7 days... so those four\nyears are equivalent to about 2000 years on Blue!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That may depend heavily on odd power functions, like the orbital period \nformula earlier; the dual orbit discovery was pre-internet (1978) so I'm \nhaving a devil of a time locating anything analytical about it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's going to be a general property of horshoe orbits that the \nperiod between conjunctions will be very long compared to the orbital \nperiod. The reason being that the two objects are essentially in the same \norbit, albeit going a little faster or slower at times. So their orbital \nspeeds cannot differ much, and can only catch up or fall behind over a \nperiod of many orbits.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D531D5B.7030105@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-09T23:03:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) grumble at wolfe comment made attached to guardianarticle", "in_reply_to": "<8796D1A4C16E4AEE811726BB8FFEFD56@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/9/2011 4:52 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 2/9/2011 9:59 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 2/9/2011 6:26 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think horseshoes are a bit problematic. If you look at Cruithne's\norbit, its actual distance from Earth varies on a short scale with a\nperiod of one year. Over a longer term, the average distance varies.\nSince Cruithne's orbital period is one year, there's no room for\nmeaningful six-year conjunctions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's because tiny Cruithne is too small to influence Earth in a\ndetectable way. Janus and Epimethius, however, are similar in mass and\ndo their thing in four years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But their orbital period around Saturn is only 0.7 days... so those four\nyears are equivalent to about 2000 years on Blue!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That may depend heavily on odd power functions, like the orbital\nperiod formula earlier; the dual orbit discovery was pre-internet\n(1978) so I'm having a devil of a time locating anything analytical\nabout it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's going to be a general property of horshoe orbits that the\nperiod between conjunctions will be very long compared to the orbital\nperiod. The reason being that the two objects are essentially in the\nsame orbit, albeit going a little faster or slower at times. So their\norbital speeds cannot differ much, and can only catch up or fall behind\nover a period of many orbits." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there a precis somewhere of what is known astronomically about the \nB-G system?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }