{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5950", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5950, "subject": "Sev's family tree/gender bender", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2011-02-01T04:04:01+00:00", "last": "2011-02-01T22:08:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-01T04:04:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's family tree/gender bender", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- Lucky the alzabo didn't get him. It would have become the terror \nof the countryside, wandering around telling stories about Fechin for hours to its \nvictims, until in despair they threw themselves into its jaws..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, that's pretty funny!\n \nWas just rereading that Casdoe section. An interesting quote supporting my Agia=assassin \nguess, requiring mistaken gender:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but \nAgia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished \nassassin.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nAlso regarding gender misidentification- the old person starts his/her Fechin story with:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"His face wasn't a monkey's face at all [apparently someone thought it was]. Fechin was\nhandsome--the handsomest around. he could always get food or money froma woman. He could\nget anything from women...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had a piece of paper the schoolmaster had given me. Real paper...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Fechin loved to draw, and while we walked I thought about that, and how his face would\nlook if he had paper to make a picture he could keep....Fechin didn't know I had it, but I\ntook it out and showed it to him, and tore it in two...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n..and the light of it [the sun] on Fechin's face was more than I could stand. It made my eyes\nwater\"\n \n \nThe attraction the old person has for Fechin's face doesn't seem very masculine to me, unless \nin a homosexual way. But Fechin can get anything from women, even a precious piece of real paper.\nThe old person being a woman explains a lot of this for me.\n \nAnd as Mr. T has suggested, having Casdoe's family linked to Severian makes some thematic sense\nalso. (if Mr. Monkey-face can be connected to both family trees. heh. Well, Fechin gets whatever\nhe wants from women, including children...Casdoe/Dorcas, Severian/Severa...I dunno. Might be a\nconnection.)\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6F964D6C-5B5A-4AC4-B958-143348BA40FE@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-02-01T21:22:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's family tree/gender bender", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 31, 2011, at 8:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- Lucky the alzabo didn't get him. It would have become the terror \nof the countryside, wandering around telling stories about Fechin for hours to its \nvictims, until in despair they threw themselves into its jaws..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh, that's pretty funny!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was just rereading that Casdoe section. An interesting quote supporting my Agia=assassin \nguess, requiring mistaken gender:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Women and tailors hold the blade beneath the hand, according to the proverb, but \nAgia stabbed up to open the tripes and catch the heart from below, like an accomplished \nassassin.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It provides a possible link to your Agia= Assasin of Valeria theory, By linking her to the term assasin. For me, it doesn't overcome the idea that he would have to not recognize her when she is in drag, but it does strenghten your idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also regarding gender misidentification- the old person starts his/her Fechin story with:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"His face wasn't a monkey's face at all [apparently someone thought it was]. Fechin was\nhandsome--the handsomest around. he could always get food or money froma woman. He could\nget anything from women...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had a piece of paper the schoolmaster had given me. Real paper...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But Fechin loved to draw, and while we walked I thought about that, and how his face would\nlook if he had paper to make a picture he could keep....Fechin didn't know I had it, but I\ntook it out and showed it to him, and tore it in two...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..and the light of it [the sun] on Fechin's face was more than I could stand. It made my eyes\nwater\"\n\n\nThe attraction the old person has for Fechin's face doesn't seem very masculine to me, unless \nin a homosexual way. But Fechin can get anything from women, even a precious piece of real paper.\nThe old person being a woman explains a lot of this for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see attraction. admiration, sure.\nAny boy in a group ought to know who is the handsomest around without being attracted to him. He will be the one getting all the play. Maybe \"the light of the sun\" on his face, nearly making him cry is the crux, but isn't there an excised section that talks about how the light that day seemed like the New Sun's? That would be enough to sensitize him on it's own, I think.\nI'm not denying that it is possible he has some attraction, but it is not the only way to read this passage. There seems to be nothing here to shift the old man to an old woman. \n\nAgain, there is lots of androgeny in the book, but I see nothing to suggest Severian has discernment issues. He describes the Autarch as androgynous. I think it's only once he uses \"Androgyn\" and it is in the context of an admittedly wrong first impression." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8C788B5D072F477FB422DD1951DA9673@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-01T22:08:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's family tree/gender bender", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nThe attraction the old person has for Fechin's face doesn't seem very \nmasculine to me, unless\nin a homosexual way. But Fechin can get anything from women, even a \nprecious piece of real paper.\nThe old person being a woman explains a lot of this for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*************************************\nI can't remember what her name was, but she was truly beautiful, the way the \nquietest are sometimes. I never knew up till then that Fechin knew her, but \nhe asked me to wait, and I sat down on the first step in front of the gate.\" \n[--]\n\n\"He wasn't inside long, but when he came out, with the girl looking out the \nwindow, I knew what they had done. I looked at him, and he spread those \nlong, thin, monkey arms. How could he share what he'd had? In the end, he \nmade the girl give me half a loaf of bread and some fruit. He drew my \npicture on one side of the paper and the girl's on the other, but he kept \nthe pictures.\"\n\n**************************************\n\n\n\nHow could he share what he'd had? Very easily, surely, if the speaker was a \ngirl!\n\nThat suggests that the speaker was male, and if he is indeed indicating an \nattraction to Fechin, it was a homosexual one. Evidently Fechin was not \nmuch into androgyny.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }