{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5951", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5951, "subject": "This week in Google Alerts: The rules do not apply to this\n review of _Home Fires_", "messages": 28, "voices": 8, "first": "2011-02-08T01:10:46+00:00", "last": "2011-02-21T13:25:45+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-08T01:10:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts: The rules do not apply to this\n review of _Home Fires_", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://littleredreviewer.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/gene-wolfes-home-fires-rules-just-dont-apply-here/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...I’d like to tell you about a specific non-spoilery example of Wolfe’s world-building through dialog instead of exposition, because I immediately jumped to a conclusion, which of course turned out to be wrong, and then I felt like a character in the book.\n\nSkip is a high flying attorney, and he has a secretary, who in turn has an assistant, who in turn has a helper. Skip’s law firm has what appears to be an old fashioned style “secretary pool”, and during a phone conversation the employees in the pool are referred to by first name only, as no one has bothered to learn their last names. My first thought was what kind of a sexist, almost Mad Men-esque future Earth is this? When did Gene Wolfe start writing like Heinlein (who you know I love), to whom female employees are all “girls” and usually helpless assistants? Wolfe is not having a Heinlein moment. This is a future Earth where there are too many people, and not enough jobs. Where companies (and not just Skip’s law firm) are compelled by government regulations to hire so many people, even if there is no work for that person to do. This is a future Earth where low unemployment is more important than efficiency, and where resources are so scarce that adults will do anything to get and keep a job, including sitting in a secretarial pool all day waiting for a memo to type...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-02-17T07:47:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- odd discussion of Wolfe's linguistic choices in TBOTNS:\nhttp://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/491538-wolfe-s-writing-style-yay-or-nay" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is part of a group reading\n\nhttp://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_folder/69982\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5FB71F.20309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-19T12:27:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny that the guy who complained about Wolfe's use of Latin calls \nhimself Lepton. I am assuming he is not actually Greek, yet he \nresurrects this archaic language and reuses its dead, worn-out words. ;)\n\nI was interested to read this thought:\n\n\"Yes, I know what Latin is. What I'm saying is that the sword is not \nactually called Terminus Est. It's name is actually in English, which to \nSeverian and the other characters is an ancient and defunct language. If \nWolfe gave us the actual name of the sword, it would convey to us the \nmeaning but not the sense. So Wolfe translates it to Latin.\"\n\nWe've had some debates about names and languages used (towns on the \nWhorl, etc.). But I am not sure anyone has proposed that the dead \nlanguage is actually English, even though this would explain some of \nSeverian's linguistic explanations, among other things. There is \nprobably a limit to how literally one can take the idea, but generally \nsense it works well and yet is not obvious. And of course it's another \npuzzle of the simplest and most confounding kind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/17/2011 2:47 AM, David Duffy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- odd discussion of Wolfe's linguistic choices in TBOTNS:\nhttp://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/491538-wolfe-s-writing-style-yay-or-nay " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is part of a group reading\n\nhttp://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_folder/69982\n\nCheers, David Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5181ED219FF74EF1BDB8C50887DD0D3C@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-19T13:14:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D5FB71F.20309@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nFunny that the guy who complained about Wolfe's use of Latin calls himself \nLepton. I am assuming he is not actually Greek, yet he resurrects this \narchaic language and reuses its dead, worn-out words. ;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose he might say that 'lepton' is now an English word, signifying a \nmember of a family of sub-nuclear particles, the best known of which is the \nelectron." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was interested to read this thought:\n\n\"Yes, I know what Latin is. What I'm saying is that the sword is not \nactually called Terminus Est. It's name is actually in English, which to \nSeverian and the other characters is an ancient and defunct language. If \nWolfe gave us the actual name of the sword, it would convey to us the \nmeaning but not the sense. So Wolfe translates it to Latin.\"\n\nWe've had some debates about names and languages used (towns on the Whorl, \netc.). But I am not sure anyone has proposed that the dead language is \nactually English, even though this would explain some of Severian's \nlinguistic explanations, among other things. There is probably a limit to \nhow literally one can take the idea, but generally sense it works well and \nyet is not obvious. And of course it's another puzzle of the simplest and \nmost confounding kind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read that too. My first thought was that it was not English, because \nEnglish is clearly referenced by Thea in her speech about \"when the damn men \nwent to Verthandi\". In the ancient language of the dawn men, \"Present\" \nmeans both \"Now\" and \"The Gift\". She is baffled as to how anyone could use \na language so confusing.\n\nBut still the question arises as to whether \"Terminus Est\" may be written in \nthat ancient language, rather than some other. On the face of it there is \nno firm reason why it should not be English, but I don't really believe it. \nLatin is part of the public consciousness of the modern world - most people \ncould not read it but few would not recognise it. And it is a close ancestor \nof English - we use many words derived from it. The language Thea speaks of \nseems older, and at least as incomprehensible as Egyptian hieroglyphics are \nto us.\n\nSo I don't think it is English, but I don't think it can be definitively \nruled out. I don't know if I'd call it a puzzle as such, though.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5FEF67.5000408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-19T16:27:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<5181ED219FF74EF1BDB8C50887DD0D3C@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 8:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Funny that the guy who complained about Wolfe's use of Latin calls \nhimself Lepton. I am assuming he is not actually Greek, yet he \nresurrects this archaic language and reuses its dead, worn-out words. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose he might say that 'lepton' is now an English word, \nsignifying a member of a family of sub-nuclear particles, the best \nknown of which is the electron." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. He's guilty of the crime of which he accuses Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was interested to read this thought:\n\n\"Yes, I know what Latin is. What I'm saying is that the sword is not \nactually called Terminus Est. It's name is actually in English, which \nto Severian and the other characters is an ancient and defunct \nlanguage. If Wolfe gave us the actual name of the sword, it would \nconvey to us the meaning but not the sense. So Wolfe translates it to \nLatin.\"\n\nWe've had some debates about names and languages used (towns on the \nWhorl, etc.). But I am not sure anyone has proposed that the dead \nlanguage is actually English, even though this would explain some of \nSeverian's linguistic explanations, among other things. There is \nprobably a limit to how literally one can take the idea, but \ngenerally sense it works well and yet is not obvious. And of course \nit's another puzzle of the simplest and most confounding kind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I read that too. My first thought was that it was not English, \nbecause English is clearly referenced by Thea in her speech about \n\"when the damn men went to Verthandi\". In the ancient language of the \ndawn men, \"Present\" means both \"Now\" and \"The Gift\". She is baffled \nas to how anyone could use a language so confusing.\n\nBut still the question arises as to whether \"Terminus Est\" may be \nwritten in that ancient language, rather than some other. On the face \nof it there is no firm reason why it should not be English, but I \ndon't really believe it. Latin is part of the public consciousness of \nthe modern world - most people could not read it but few would not \nrecognise it. And it is a close ancestor of English - we use many \nwords derived from it. The language Thea speaks of seems older, and \nat least as incomprehensible as Egyptian hieroglyphics are to us.\n\nSo I don't think it is English, but I don't think it can be \ndefinitively ruled out. I don't know if I'd call it a puzzle as such, \nthough.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have 2 thoughts in response to that:\n\n---if Latin is so close to English, especially from 20,000 years on, \nthen why try to distinguish them at all? They are both the language of \nthe dawn men. And it is the dawn men, after all, who used Latin and \nGreek and English---the language of physics---to invent rockets and \nspace ships and colonize the stars.\n\n---Thea's story, to me, is proof that the language she speaks of is \nEnglish---although for all I know the same pun exists in other \nGermanic/Latinate languages, and the only reason the actual word \n\"present\" is used is that the book is published in English (the Star \nTrek rule, in which all languages are presented as English). If that's \ntrue, then the answer is not so clear and yet a little less important.\n\nIt may not be a puzzle in itself, but plainly there are plenty of \nlinguistic riddles and such in the book." } ] }, { "message_id": "<463075.91314.qm@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-19T17:11:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D5FEF67.5000408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This perspicuous language they speak, where one meaning corresponds to one word (how could present be now and gift?), is the height of irony in regards to Severian and his tale, and this is something that always surprised me. How any language could approach a one to one relationship between symbol and symbolized seemed an impossibility as fantastic as the alzabo, and Severian's entire tale seems to belie this clarity of meaning in language (\"he was the smallest of those dead\" for example, is completely ambiguous). It's pretty clear when Johnson tried to compile his dictionary with the protestant ethos of scripture (the word of God was immutable law) that it was an impossible task, rife with interpretation.\n\nI always saw this as a slightly theological analogy here, that one Word can have many interpretations or instantiations, in direct opposition to the idea that the Words themselves could be free from an interpretive task.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-19T17:59:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D5FEF67.5000408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nOn 2/19/2011 8:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Funny that the guy who complained about Wolfe's use of Latin calls \nhimself Lepton. I am assuming he is not actually Greek, yet he \nresurrects this archaic language and reuses its dead, worn-out words. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose he might say that 'lepton' is now an English word, signifying a \nmember of a family of sub-nuclear particles, the best known of which is \nthe electron." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly. He's guilty of the crime of which he accuses Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not really, since 'lepton' is now an English word. Still, he's clearly a \nlightweight ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I read that too. My first thought was that it was not English, because \nEnglish is clearly referenced by Thea in her speech about \"when the damn \nmen went to Verthandi\". In the ancient language of the dawn men, \n\"Present\" means both \"Now\" and \"The Gift\". She is baffled as to how \nanyone could use a language so confusing.\n\nBut still the question arises as to whether \"Terminus Est\" may be written \nin that ancient language, rather than some other. On the face of it \nthere is no firm reason why it should not be English, but I don't really \nbelieve it. Latin is part of the public consciousness of the modern \nworld - most people could not read it but few would not recognise it. And \nit is a close ancestor of English - we use many words derived from it. \nThe language Thea speaks of seems older, and at least as incomprehensible \nas Egyptian hieroglyphics are to us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---if Latin is so close to English, especially from 20,000 years on, then \nwhy try to distinguish them at all? They are both the language of the dawn \nmen. And it is the dawn men, after all, who used Latin and Greek and \nEnglish---the language of physics---to invent rockets and space ships and \ncolonize the stars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you misread me. I don't believe there is any reference to actual \nLatin. As you say, Latin and English would be nearly indistinguishable in \nSeverian's day. What I think is that the language represented as Latin in \nBotNS is to the contemporary language of Severian's day as Latin is to the \nEnglish of today. And I don't think the language Thea speaks of (which is \nactually the English we speak) holds that position. It seems more distant.\n\nI other words I think:\n\n : :: Latin : English\n : :: : \nEnglish\n\nThe language Thea mentions is clearly present-day English. So the timeline \nis like:\n\n (not mentioned(\n-----\n-----\n (not mentioned)\n (referenced by Thea)\n-----\n-----\n<'Terminus Est' language> (translated to Latin by Gene Wolfe)\n (translated to English by Gene Wolfe)\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-19T18:09:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<463075.91314.qm@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Marc Aramini\" \nThis perspicuous language they speak, where one meaning corresponds to one \nword (how could present be now and gift?), is the height of irony in \nregards to Severian and his tale, and this is something that always \nsurprised me. How any language could approach a one to one relationship \nbetween symbol and symbolized seemed an impossibility as fantastic as the \nalzabo, and Severian's entire tale seems to belie this clarity of meaning \nin language (\"he was the smallest of those dead\" for example, is \ncompletely ambiguous). It's pretty clear when Johnson tried to compile \nhis dictionary with the protestant ethos of scripture (the word of God was \nimmutable law) that it was an impossible task, rife with interpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You make a good point [though I don't see what is ambiguous about \"he was \nthe smallest of those dead\" - but then again I don't remember the context]. \nA real human language must surely tolerate ambiguity. Indeed we have almost \nproof of this in the shape of another language we encounter, that of Loyal \nto the Group of Seventeen! This language is clearly inefficient, but it \nseems certain to be full of ambiguity.\n\nPerhaps Thea is not very thoughtful, or perhaps Wolfe just stuck in the line \nabout ambiguity as a joke.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D6007E8.5010404@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2011-02-19T18:11:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D5FEF67.5000408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The same pun works in Portuguese, and probably in many other languages \nderived from Latin.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 11:27 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n---Thea's story, to me, is proof that the language she speaks of is \nEnglish---although for all I know the same pun exists in other \nGermanic/Latinate languages, and the only reason the actual word \n\"present\" is used is that the book is published in English (the Star \nTrek rule, in which all languages are presented as English). If that's \ntrue, then the answer is not so clear and yet a little less important. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org/maareviews\n\nHELP! MY TYPEWRITER IS BROKEN!\n -- E. E. CUMMINGS" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D600F8D.4000409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-19T18:44:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<463075.91314.qm@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely. At very least, it's a broad wink." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 12:11 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThis perspicuous language they speak, where one meaning corresponds to one word (how could present be now and gift?), is the height of irony in regards to Severian and his tale, and this is something that always surprised me. How any language could approach a one to one relationship between symbol and symbolized seemed an impossibility as fantastic as the alzabo, and Severian's entire tale seems to belie this clarity of meaning in language (\"he was the smallest of those dead\" for example, is completely ambiguous). It's pretty clear when Johnson tried to compile his dictionary with the protestant ethos of scripture (the word of God was immutable law) that it was an impossible task, rife with interpretation.\n\nI always saw this as a slightly theological analogy here, that one Word can have many interpretations or instantiations, in direct opposition to the idea that the Words themselves could be free from an interpretive task." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D601B1E.80307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-19T19:33:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 12:59 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \nOn 2/19/2011 8:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Funny that the guy who complained about Wolfe's use of Latin calls \nhimself Lepton. I am assuming he is not actually Greek, yet he \nresurrects this archaic language and reuses its dead, worn-out \nwords. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I suppose he might say that 'lepton' is now an English word, \nsignifying a member of a family of sub-nuclear particles, the best \nknown of which is the electron." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Exactly. He's guilty of the crime of which he accuses Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not really, since 'lepton' is now an English word. Still, he's \nclearly a lightweight ;-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No question of that. But \"lepton\" is still a Greek word in origin. By \nusing a Greek word out of its context (not sure if it existed at all in \nGreek, but since the meaning is new it hardly matters), he performs an \nact similar to Wolfe's.\n\nIs this a more subtle point than I thought, or do you see what I mean \nand just disagree? I have no doubt Lepton would indeed make that \nargument, but my point is more or less that Lepton is an obtuse, \npedantic moron." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I read that too. My first thought was that it was not English, \nbecause English is clearly referenced by Thea in her speech about \n\"when the damn men went to Verthandi\". In the ancient language of \nthe dawn men, \"Present\" means both \"Now\" and \"The Gift\". She is \nbaffled as to how anyone could use a language so confusing.\n\nBut still the question arises as to whether \"Terminus Est\" may be \nwritten in that ancient language, rather than some other. On the \nface of it there is no firm reason why it should not be English, but \nI don't really believe it. Latin is part of the public consciousness \nof the modern world - most people could not read it but few would \nnot recognise it. And it is a close ancestor of English - we use \nmany words derived from it. The language Thea speaks of seems older, \nand at least as incomprehensible as Egyptian hieroglyphics are to us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "---if Latin is so close to English, especially from 20,000 years on, \nthen why try to distinguish them at all? They are both the language \nof the dawn men. And it is the dawn men, after all, who used Latin \nand Greek and English---the language of physics---to invent rockets \nand space ships and colonize the stars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you misread me. I don't believe there is any reference to \nactual Latin. As you say, Latin and English would be nearly \nindistinguishable in Severian's day. What I think is that the language \nrepresented as Latin in BotNS is to the contemporary language of \nSeverian's day as Latin is to the English of today. And I don't think \nthe language Thea speaks of (which is actually the English we speak) \nholds that position. It seems more distant.\n\nI other words I think:\n\n : :: Latin : English\n : :: : English\n\nThe language Thea mentions is clearly present-day English. So the \ntimeline is like:\n\n (not mentioned(\n-----\n-----\n (not mentioned)\n (referenced by Thea)\n-----\n-----\n<'Terminus Est' language> (translated to Latin by Gene Wolfe)\n (translated to English by Gene Wolfe)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did misunderstand. Now that you lay it out, it is pretty much what I \nthink: the language of the dawn men is certainly older than the language \nthat confuses \"present\" and \"gift.\" And \"Latin\" is a contemporary dead \nlanguage, however closely its lapidary utterances resemble Latin phrases \nwe know." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D601D11.1050602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-19T19:42:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D6007E8.5010404@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "aha!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 1:11 PM, Fernando Gouvea wrote:\nThe same pun works in Portuguese, and probably in many other languages \nderived from Latin.\n\nFernando\n\nOn 2/19/2011 11:27 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "---Thea's story, to me, is proof that the language she speaks of is \nEnglish---although for all I know the same pun exists in other \nGermanic/Latinate languages, and the only reason the actual word \n\"present\" is used is that the book is published in English (the Star \nTrek rule, in which all languages are presented as English). If \nthat's true, then the answer is not so clear and yet a little less \nimportant. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6C096BDBBBE843F3BA14199093D10E39@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-20T01:17:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D601B1E.80307@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nOn 2/19/2011 12:59 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not really, since 'lepton' is now an English word. Still, he's clearly a \nlightweight ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No question of that. But \"lepton\" is still a Greek word in origin. By \nusing a Greek word out of its context (not sure if it existed at all in \nGreek, but since the meaning is new it hardly matters), he performs an act \nsimilar to Wolfe's.\n\nIs this a more subtle point than I thought, or do you see what I mean and \njust disagree? I have no doubt Lepton would indeed make that argument, but \nmy point is more or less that Lepton is an obtuse, pedantic moron." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe... but I think if you tackled him on this subject you would be \nfighting him on his home ground, because he can make a reasonable case, even \nif it is obtuse and pedantic! In principle he may recognise 'lepton' only \nas an English word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The language Thea mentions is clearly present-day English. So the \ntimeline is like:\n\n (not mentioned)\n-----\n-----\n (not mentioned)\n (referenced by Thea)\n-----\n-----\n<'Terminus Est' language> (translated to Latin by Gene Wolfe)\n (translated to English by Gene Wolfe)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did misunderstand. Now that you lay it out, it is pretty much what I \nthink: the language of the dawn men is certainly older than the language \nthat confuses \"present\" and \"gift.\" And \"Latin\" is a contemporary dead \nlanguage, however closely its lapidary utterances resemble Latin phrases \nwe know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No... we are the dawn men, or their close ancestors. Our descendants will \ncolonise Mars in a few centuries. A little later, perhaps a thousand years \nfrom now, Jonas will set sail on a Korean starcrosser. It is our language \nthat confuses 'present' and 'gift'.\n\nActually there is an interesting point regarding English and Latin I hadn't \nnoticed before. Thea says \"When the dawn men went to red Verthandi, which \nwas then called War\", she is in a sense conflating English and Latin (our \nversions), because Mars is the Roman god of War, and thus could be taken as \nLatin.\n\nAll this means is that she is talking about the very distant past - English \nand Latin are very close together from the perspective of Severian's time. \nWhat Wolfe transcribes as Latin is, I think, something much closer to \nSeverian's time than our dawn languages.\n\nIncidentally, there seems to be a slight language inconsistency in that \nSeverian does not find Typhon's language archaic, or at least he does not \nmention it. Yet Typhon lived something between 350 and 2000 years before \nSeverian's time (depending on whether the Whorl travelled at relativistic \nspeeds or not). One would expect considerable changes, even in a culturally \nfossilised society.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D6073FB.9020100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-20T01:52:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<6C096BDBBBE843F3BA14199093D10E39@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 8:17 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" \nOn 2/19/2011 12:59 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not really, since 'lepton' is now an English word. Still, he's \nclearly a lightweight ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No question of that. But \"lepton\" is still a Greek word in origin. By \nusing a Greek word out of its context (not sure if it existed at all \nin Greek, but since the meaning is new it hardly matters), he \nperforms an act similar to Wolfe's.\n\nIs this a more subtle point than I thought, or do you see what I mean \nand just disagree? I have no doubt Lepton would indeed make that \nargument, but my point is more or less that Lepton is an obtuse, \npedantic moron." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe... but I think if you tackled him on this subject you would be \nfighting him on his home ground, because he can make a reasonable \ncase, even if it is obtuse and pedantic! In principle he may \nrecognise 'lepton' only as an English word." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess then I will stay out of physics, and hope that he stays out of \nbook discussions!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The language Thea mentions is clearly present-day English. So the \ntimeline is like:\n\n (not mentioned)\n-----\n-----\n (not mentioned)\n (referenced by Thea)\n-----\n-----\n<'Terminus Est' language> (translated to Latin by Gene Wolfe)\n (translated to English by Gene Wolfe)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I did misunderstand. Now that you lay it out, it is pretty much what \nI think: the language of the dawn men is certainly older than the \nlanguage that confuses \"present\" and \"gift.\" And \"Latin\" is a \ncontemporary dead language, however closely its lapidary utterances \nresemble Latin phrases we know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No... we are the dawn men, or their close ancestors. Our descendants \nwill colonise Mars in a few centuries. A little later, perhaps a \nthousand years from now, Jonas will set sail on a Korean \nstarcrosser. It is our language that confuses 'present' and 'gift'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I had a 2-year-old on my lap when I wrote that. I meant to say, \nthe language of the dawn men is certainly that language. We are the dawn \nmen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually there is an interesting point regarding English and Latin I \nhadn't noticed before. Thea says \"When the dawn men went to red \nVerthandi, which was then called War\", she is in a sense conflating \nEnglish and Latin (our versions), because Mars is the Roman god of \nWar, and thus could be taken as Latin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. She does not see Latin(ate languages) and English as distinct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All this means is that she is talking about the very distant past - \nEnglish and Latin are very close together from the perspective of \nSeverian's time. What Wolfe transcribes as Latin is, I think, \nsomething much closer to Severian's time than our dawn languages." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, there seems to be a slight language inconsistency in \nthat Severian does not find Typhon's language archaic, or at least he \ndoes not mention it. Yet Typhon lived something between 350 and 2000 \nyears before Severian's time (depending on whether the Whorl travelled \nat relativistic speeds or not). One would expect considerable \nchanges, even in a culturally fossilised society." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps a language that is used to rule several worlds lasts longer than \nLatin, which ruled only part of one. But yes, Severian or his translator \nappears to have glossed over that. Typhon should have had some \nunimaginable archaic accent." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D607DA3.20700@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-20T02:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D5FB71F.20309@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 6:27 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFunny that the guy who complained about Wolfe's use of Latin calls\nhimself Lepton. I am assuming he is not actually Greek, yet he\nresurrects this archaic language and reuses its dead, worn-out words. ;)\n\nI was interested to read this thought:\n\n\"Yes, I know what Latin is. What I'm saying is that the sword is not\nactually called Terminus Est. It's name is actually in English, which to\nSeverian and the other characters is an ancient and defunct language. If\nWolfe gave us the actual name of the sword, it would convey to us the\nmeaning but not the sense. So Wolfe translates it to Latin.\"\n\nWe've had some debates about names and languages used (towns on the\nWhorl, etc.). But I am not sure anyone has proposed that the dead\nlanguage is actually English, even though this would explain some of\nSeverian's linguistic explanations, among other things. There is\nprobably a limit to how literally one can take the idea, but generally\nsense it works well and yet is not obvious. And of course it's another\npuzzle of the simplest and most confounding kind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it necessarily a single dead language? Perhaps Sev recorded the \ntranslations rather than the originals." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D607F26.10802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-20T02:40:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 11:59 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI other words I think:\n\n : :: Latin : English\n : :: \n: English\n\nThe language Thea mentions is clearly present-day English. So the\ntimeline is like:\n\n (not mentioned(\n-----\n-----\n (not mentioned)\n (referenced by Thea)\n-----\n-----\n<'Terminus Est' language> (translated to Latin by Gene Wolfe)\n (translated to English by Gene Wolfe)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't it fairly likely that some of the sundial mottoes are actually \nLatin, though?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-20T03:06:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D607F26.10802@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nIsn't it fairly likely that some of the sundial mottoes are actually \nLatin, though?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. Most sundials we see today were made in modern times. \nThey might have archaic mottoes put on them. Probably the same would be \ntrue of sundials in Severian's time.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D608554.1030901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-20T03:07:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D607DA3.20700@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 9:34 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nIs it necessarily a single dead language? Perhaps Sev recorded the \ntranslations rather than the originals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to Fernando, the \"gift\" pun is common to several languages anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D609799.4050209@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-20T04:24:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 9:06 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't it fairly likely that some of the sundial mottoes are actually\nLatin, though?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. Most sundials we see today were made in modern times.\nThey might have archaic mottoes put on them. Probably the same would be\ntrue of sundials in Severian's time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I mean; the Latin mottoes become traditional inscriptions \nfor sundials and are copied (with errors creeping in) on new sundials in \nages yet to come, like the Roman numerals on out contemporary clock \nfaces, which often include both IIII and IX for extra anachroistic flavor." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D6099FA.60705@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-20T04:35:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D6007E8.5010404@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 12:11 PM, Fernando Gouvea wrote:\nThe same pun works in Portuguese, and probably in many other languages\nderived from Latin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could you give me a Portuguese example? En Espan~ol, \"ahora\" means now, \nand \"presente\" means here. This is also the case in literal English; \n\"the present\" is short for \"the present moment\", \"the present time\", \n\"the present day\", \"the present situation\", and other intangibles that \npresent themselves the way a person would present a gift to another person." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D609CE7.2080407@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-20T04:47:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D6073FB.9020100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 7:52 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 2/19/2011 8:17 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incidentally, there seems to be a slight language inconsistency in\nthat Severian does not find Typhon's language archaic, or at least he\ndoes not mention it. Yet Typhon lived something between 350 and 2000\nyears before Severian's time (depending on whether the Whorl travelled\nat relativistic speeds or not). One would expect considerable changes,\neven in a culturally fossilised society." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps a language that is used to rule several worlds lasts longer than\nLatin, which ruled only part of one. But yes, Severian or his translator\nappears to have glossed over that. Typhon should have had some\nunimaginable archaic accent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I brought this up last year, particularly with Typhon failing to correct \nSev on Autarch instead of Monarch.\n\nHowever, given the vast numbers of speaking and listening devices \napparently still functional in the House and the Citadel, it is possible \nthat they create philological inertia; aristocratic accents command \nmachinery, eclectic accents don't. In Severian's case, the apprentices \nsleep in the highest floors of the tower adjacent to the chattering \ncomputers and communicators, and likely stand watches there as well." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D6114A4.4020408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-20T13:18:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D609CE7.2080407@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 11:47 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 2/19/2011 7:52 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 2/19/2011 8:17 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Incidentally, there seems to be a slight language inconsistency in\nthat Severian does not find Typhon's language archaic, or at least he\ndoes not mention it. Yet Typhon lived something between 350 and 2000\nyears before Severian's time (depending on whether the Whorl travelled\nat relativistic speeds or not). One would expect considerable changes,\neven in a culturally fossilised society." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps a language that is used to rule several worlds lasts longer than\nLatin, which ruled only part of one. But yes, Severian or his translator\nappears to have glossed over that. Typhon should have had some\nunimaginable archaic accent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I brought this up last year, particularly with Typhon failing to \ncorrect Sev on Autarch instead of Monarch.\n\nHowever, given the vast numbers of speaking and listening devices \napparently still functional in the House and the Citadel, it is \npossible that they create philological inertia; aristocratic accents \ncommand machinery, eclectic accents don't. In Severian's case, the \napprentices sleep in the highest floors of the tower adjacent to the \nchattering computers and communicators, and likely stand watches there \nas well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good point. And any kind of social inertia is fitting for the \nCommonwealth---especially so when we know the author has projected about \n20,000 years between our English and Severian's language." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D6116CD.9010409@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2011-02-20T13:27:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D6099FA.60705@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Presente\" as in present tense is the most obvious example. Of course \nthere's also \"agora\", but \"now\" is not really a synonym of \"present\" in \nEnglish either. It does derive from \"the moment that presents itself\", \nof course.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 11:35 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 2/19/2011 12:11 PM, Fernando Gouvea wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The same pun works in Portuguese, and probably in many other languages\nderived from Latin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could you give me a Portuguese example? En Espan~ol, \"ahora\" means \nnow, and \"presente\" means here. This is also the case in literal \nEnglish; \"the present\" is short for \"the present moment\", \"the present \ntime\", \"the present day\", \"the present situation\", and other \nintangibles that present themselves the way a person would present a \ngift to another person." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org/maareviews\n\nTragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall down an open manhole cover and die.\n -- Mel Brooks" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D61C21F.90109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-21T01:38:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI don't see what is ambiguous about \"he was the smallest of those dead\"\n- but then again I don't remember the context" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He was (the smallest of (those dead))\nHe was (the smallest of those [something] (dead))\n\nCan't remember either." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D61C309.7030804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-21T01:42:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI other words I think:\n\n : :: Latin : English\n : :: \n: English" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose : means 'is to', :: means 'as' and <> are just paretheses?\nIf so, it took me a while to figure it out.\nI would suggest avoiding >." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The language Thea mentions is clearly present-day English. So the\ntimeline is like:\n\n (not mentioned(\n-----\n-----\n (not mentioned)\n (referenced by Thea)\n-----\n-----\n<'Terminus Est' language> (translated to Latin by Gene Wolfe)\n (translated to English by Gene Wolfe)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D61C6D0.7050103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-21T01:58:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D6099FA.60705@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 2/19/2011 12:11 PM, Fernando Gouvea wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The same pun works in Portuguese, and probably in many other languages\nderived from Latin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could you give me a Portuguese example? En Espan~ol, \"ahora\" means now,\nand \"presente\" means here. This is also the case in literal English;\n\"the present\" is short for \"the present moment\", \"the present time\",\n\"the present day\", \"the present situation\", and other intangibles that\npresent themselves the way a person would present a gift to another person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I don't get what you mean. The words, as used, are:\n\nen now present time given present current place\npt agora momento presente presente dado presente local\nes ahora momento presente presente dado presente local\n\nPraesens/praesentis is the present ( :g ) participle of praeesse, prae + \nesse, 'in-front be'. So 'present' is that which stands in front of you - not \nat a distance, but directly in your nose. Thus the temporal, spatial, \nexchangeal and other usages are all the same, but not one derives from any \nother, as seems to be suggested.\n\nThere's the interesting french word ceans which means 'this place'. So _la \nCour de Ceans_ means 'the local Court', _la plus belle de ceans_ (funny \nsong) is 'the most beautiful girl around'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7AC3161BEA554E618D2FAFA6D45E6E7D@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-21T13:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<4D61C309.7030804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I other words I think:\n\n : :: Latin : English\n : :: \n: English" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose : means 'is to', :: means 'as' and <> are just paretheses?\nIf so, it took me a while to figure it out.\nI would suggest avoiding >." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is, or used to be, a mathematical notation that says:\n\na : b :: c : d\nmeaning\na is to b as c is to d.\n\nIt is used originally for ratios, and by analogy for comparisons, synonyms \netc.\n\nI used <> to differentiate multiword concepts; I often use angle brackets to \ndifferentiate some unitary thing from surrounding text but perhaps I should \nrethink if it is not coming across as such.\n\nSo yes, you got it right. I'll try to be clearer in the future.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D6267D9.50909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-21T13:25:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman", "in_reply_to": "<7AC3161BEA554E618D2FAFA6D45E6E7D@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (21-02-2011 13:05):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I other words I think:\n\n : :: Latin : English\n : :: \n: English" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose : means 'is to', :: means 'as' and <> are just paretheses?\nIf so, it took me a while to figure it out.\nI would suggest avoiding >." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is, or used to be, a mathematical notation that says:\n\na : b :: c : d\nmeaning\na is to b as c is to d.\n\nIt is used originally for ratios, and by analogy for comparisons,\nsynonyms etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was only used to the simpletonish\n\n a c\n--- = ---\n b d\n\nI suppose :: is historically related to =, then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I used <> to differentiate multiword concepts; I often use angle\nbrackets to differentiate some unitary thing from surrounding text but\nperhaps I should rethink if it is not coming across as such." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, there's nothing wrong with it; it's just that > is prone to be \ninterpreted as a quoting character by the software." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So yes, you got it right. I'll try to be clearer in the future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd probably have gotten it easily if my reader hadn't split the lines." } ] } ] }