{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5961", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5961, "subject": "Where's the Minotaur?", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "2011-02-09T23:41:48+00:00", "last": "2011-02-10T14:00:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4D53263C.7020902@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-09T23:41:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where's the Minotaur?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I saw this image while checking Eckhart's quote on devils:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meister-Ekkehard-Portal_der_Erfurter_Predigerkirche.jpg\n\n\"das licht leuchtet in der finsternis und die finsternis hates nicht \nerfasst\"\n\nand it reminded me that I had been meaning to pick up the thread about \nthe \"teratoid symbols\" Sev sees on the door to Inire's mirror chamber. \nThecla also has seen the chamber door, and describes their designs as \nlabyrinthine.\n\nSo LEE BERMAN, where's the Minotaur?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T01:17:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where's the Minotaur?", "in_reply_to": "<4D53263C.7020902@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff WIlson: and it reminded me that I had been meaning to pick up the thread about \nthe \"teratoid symbols\" Sev sees on the door to Inire's mirror chamber. \nThecla also has seen the chamber door, and describes their designs as \nlabyrinthine. So LEE BERMAN, where's the Minotaur?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, that one's a bit too easy Jeff. I wasn't sure if you were kidding or not. But perhaps\nyou haven't followed any of the discussion between James and I on the general mythological\nsubject matter. Finding Dionysus and Ariadne is sorta tough. Finding Theseus, not so \ndifficult. Minotaur, somewhere in between I guess.\n \nIn the tale of the Student and His Son, the Son is obviously a Theseus analog. His labyrinth\nis a series of islands and channels, his Ariadne is Noctua so obviously the Naviscaput is\nthe Minotaur analog. As the raper of his sister Night, the Naviscaput is mythologically like\nErebus. But Severian compares this creature to Abaia. So, first answer for Minotaur= Erebus and Abaia.\n \nBut we also have monster and labyrinth symbols in the Secret House. Who can be found at the \ncenter of the Secret House? What is the connection of Father Inire to Erebus and Abaia?\n \nElsewhere I have discussed the connections between Father Inire and Dionysus. One of the primary\nsymbols of Dionysus is the bull. In his battlefield delirium, Severian/Thecla has a memory of her\nfather who inexplicably takes the form of a \"man with the horns and muzzled face of a bull\".\n \n \nAs Wolfe took Earth's Mowgli and Romulus and Remus and mushed them together to give us Urth's\nFish and Frog, so he has taken Earth's Dionysus and Minotaur and mushed them in a similar way\nto give us Urth's Inire, Abaia and Erebus- the monster(s) at the center of the Labyrinth which\nis BotNS. \n \n(add Flora/Fauna and the Dionysian snake and you can add the Cumaean to the list as well).\n \n \nI'm sure that answer is just what you were looking for ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D537657.5010203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T05:23:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where's the Minotaur?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/9/2011 7:17 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff WIlson: and it reminded me that I had been meaning to pick up the thread about\nthe \"teratoid symbols\" Sev sees on the door to Inire's mirror chamber.\nThecla also has seen the chamber door, and describes their designs as\nlabyrinthine. So LEE BERMAN, where's the Minotaur?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh, that one's a bit too easy Jeff. I wasn't sure if you were kidding or not. But perhaps\nyou haven't followed any of the discussion between James and I on the general mythological\nsubject matter. Finding Dionysus and Ariadne is sorta tough. Finding Theseus, not so\ndifficult. Minotaur, somewhere in between I guess.\n\nIn the tale of the Student and His Son, the Son is obviously a Theseus analog. His labyrinth\nis a series of islands and channels, his Ariadne is Noctua so obviously the Naviscaput is\nthe Minotaur analog. As the raper of his sister Night, the Naviscaput is mythologically like\nErebus. But Severian compares this creature to Abaia. So, first answer for Minotaur= Erebus and Abaia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's fine, for that maze and that level of metafictionality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we also have monster and labyrinth symbols in the Secret House. Who can be found at the\ncenter of the Secret House? What is the connection of Father Inire to Erebus and Abaia?\n\nElsewhere I have discussed the connections between Father Inire and Dionysus. One of the primary\nsymbols of Dionysus is the bull. In his battlefield delirium, Severian/Thecla has a memory of her\nfather who inexplicably takes the form of a \"man with the horns and muzzled face of a bull\".\n\n\nAs Wolfe took Earth's Mowgli and Romulus and Remus and mushed them together to give us Urth's\nFish and Frog, so he has taken Earth's Dionysus and Minotaur and mushed them in a similar way\nto give us Urth's Inire, Abaia and Erebus- the monster(s) at the center of the Labyrinth which\nis BotNS.\n\n(add Flora/Fauna and the Dionysian snake and you can add the Cumaean to the list as well).\n\n\nI'm sure that answer is just what you were looking for ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was wanting the monster that goes with the panels - of course, there's \na *lot* of monsters that can come through the mirrors - but what \nminotaur-like entity is associated with the House Absolute?\n\nNot Thecla's dad - male exultants don't get to live there.\n\nNot Abaia or Erebus - they are the monsters outside.\n\nInire lives there, but he's supposed to be a monkey.\n\nThough if the monkey rides on the back of a bull, is it the Autarch? A \nparticular autarch?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T14:00:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Where's the Minotaur?", "in_reply_to": "<4D537657.5010203@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LB: So, first answer for Minotaur= Erebus and Abaia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: That's fine, for that maze and that level of metafictionality " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LB: > But we also have monster and labyrinth symbols in the Secret House. Who can be found at the\ncenter of the Secret House? What is the connection of Father Inire to Erebus and Abaia?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JW: I was wanting the monster that goes with the panels - of course, there's \na *lot* of monsters that can come through the mirrors - but what \nminotaur-like entity is associated with the House Absolute?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire lives there, but he's supposed to be a monkey." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm..how to put my view into words....\n \nI think Wolfe, in trying to make ancient gods \"real\" in his story recognizes that they are,\nas in legend, giant, superpowered beings who must change size and shape to appear in human\nform and interact with them. Wolfe recognizes that, on Urth, only in water (or deep underground) \ncould such giant beings have actual, physical form.\n\nTheir human-sized, -shaped agents, as shapeshifters, must follow the rules and always betray some\nsign of their origin. Often this is expressed via an animalistic association, but coloration, naming\nor other marks can also serve (as seen in the Armiger's Daughter).\n \nAs demiurge, Dionysus/Pan is the model for Father Inire. He is not really a monkey. As the deepest, most\ncentral mystery of the labyrinth of BotNS he needs a really good disguise for the Pan model. If\nWolfe had said he resembled a goat, the mystery would be far to easy to solve. So, we get \nmonkey from layering and wordplay. Pan=Faunus=Inuus/Inire=monkey. BTW, Inuus sylvanus is a monkey which\nhas no tail, so we don't have to worry about what's lurking under the guy's robes.\n \nLike Pan, Inire is not really one being but a small horde of similar beings all working toward the same\ngoal. But if you are looking for a \"center\" Father Inire is it, since he never openly appears.\n \nIf you want the version of him which is the center of mirrors and monsters, that would be Hethor. There are\na number of others.\n \nGrr..time pressed right now. I know this is sketchily presented. I can elaborate or answer questions \nlater if desired. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }