{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5964", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5964, "subject": "Bloodsport", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-02-10T19:02:37+00:00", "last": "2011-05-28T18:17:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4D54364D.9080701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T19:02:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bloodsport", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did anyone here read 'Bloodsport' in the Sword & Dark Magic anthology?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<761843.38202.qm@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T19:33:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bloodsport", "in_reply_to": "<4D54364D.9080701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah. I don't know that I have much insightful to say, I need to re-read it. On one level I think it speaks of how any combat is just an accident of allegiances, but that's a weird message coming from Wolfe. Chess, Allegory, I don't know. I feel like it begs for explication. Maybe I'll look at it again, but the queening process and the subsequent shift towards \"overthrowing tyrants\" is bizarre. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 2/10/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: (urth) Bloodsport\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 11:02 AM\nDid anyone here read 'Bloodsport' in\nthe Sword & Dark Magic anthology?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<827897.17193.qm@web161818.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T19:54:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bloodsport", "in_reply_to": "<761843.38202.qm@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't reconcile what is going on in this story with a lot of Wolfe's other themes. We see chivalry and bravery to some degree, but once a leader is exalted and enshrined to new levels of power, the pawn-like agent of enthronement elinates them. \n\nPower corrupting absolutely is NOT a common theme in Wolfe, indeed it is usually the imitation of God that leads one to be more like a god. I never saw him as a writer that subscribed to the old deterministic hubris character flaw schema of ancient Greek literature, for the praxis of pretending to be a good man actually seems to turn you into one in Wolfe, just as pretending to be evil no matter what your intentions leads down a slippery slope (at a fundamental, simplistic level, this is not a rule, but a tendency). Yet it seems at the end that the lowly warrior must be an agent of nemesis toward unreasonable growth of power and influence.\n\nIn conclusion, the first time through this seemed like a Wolfe story only in its inscrutability, not in any of its particulars.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D544A59.9020607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T20:28:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bloodsport", "in_reply_to": "<761843.38202.qm@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure I would call it \"bizarre\". Perhaps I'm missing something. I \ndidn't find it in the least inscrutable.\n\nI think thematically it's a Liberation story. The characters are forced \nto play a game based on chess but the rules are not the same. For \nexample, there are \"bowmen\" (perhaps they are equivalent to a rook). The \nQueening process of the pawn is a chess allegory as you say but it is \nmotivationally justified on two levels:\n\n1) On a literary level, when Lurn, as a pawn, queened herself she \nrestarted the game. In doing so, the Valorius' (the Knight's) \nobligations were set in stone. He had to take her out. This is not \ndeterminism. This was a course of action that she consciously chose for \nthe purpose of gaining power.\n\n2) Valorius' actual motivations were not game-related. They were related \nto notions of liberty--he did not want the tyrannical governmental \nsystem resurrected after the good fortune of it being destroyed. She \ntook power based on the legality of the destroyed tyranny and declared \nher intention to restart it along with the games that just previously \nhad the two of them trying to kill each other for no good reason. It \nseems that Valorius thought it quite credible that she would succeed.\n\nYou say power corrupting absolutely is not a common Wolfe theme. That's \ntrue. But opposing Power for its Own Sake (that is, tyranny) is a common \nWolfe theme. Silk is a revolutionary. The Rajan is a revolutionary. Able \nmeets and defeats (or reforms) several tyrants.\n\nOn a side note:\nThe name Hunas is an phonetic spelling of Hunus, that is, Latin for \"Huns\".\nValorius' name also suggests a Roman culture.\nHowever, I can't find any reference, foreign or domestic, for \"Lurn\".\nWhere did he pull that from? I just can't believe it's merely a bad \nreference to \"lune\". Wolfe does better than that.\n\nWhen I read the part about Lurn's \"moon\" people, I could have sworn I \nrecalled one of the sides of chess being the \"moon\" side or something. I \ncouldn't remember what the other side was. But I don't find any source \nfor that recollection.\n\nIt's difficult to determine whether Lurn's side is White or Black. It \ncould be either with her black hair or her albino white skin. Presumably \nthis was intentional, and cleverly done.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/10/2011 1:33 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nYeah. I don't know that I have much insightful to say, I need to re-read it. On one level I think it speaks of how any combat is just an accident of allegiances, but that's a weird message coming from Wolfe. Chess, Allegory, I don't know. I feel like it begs for explication. Maybe I'll look at it again, but the queening process and the subsequent shift towards \"overthrowing tyrants\" is bizarre.\n\n--- On Thu, 2/10/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: (urth) Bloodsport" } ] }, { "message_id": "<733270.88648.qm@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T20:40:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bloodsport", "in_reply_to": "<4D544A59.9020607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess what I see as inscrutable is the relationship between the game and the reality. Is there a \"real\" society outside the allegory of the game?\n\nBecause its pretty harsh to just kill your allies, and works symbolically and metaphorically but not realistically. What is the point of the game? Real power? Entertainment?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 2/10/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Bloodsport\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 12:28 PM\nI'm not sure I would call it\n\"bizarre\". Perhaps I'm missing something. I didn't find it\nin the least inscrutable.\n\nI think thematically it's a Liberation story. The\ncharacters are forced to play a game based on chess but the\nrules are not the same. For example, there are \"bowmen\"\n(perhaps they are equivalent to a rook). The Queening\nprocess of the pawn is a chess allegory as you say but it is\nmotivationally justified on two levels:\n\n1) On a literary level, when Lurn, as a pawn, queened\nherself she restarted the game. In doing so, the Valorius'\n(the Knight's) obligations were set in stone. He had to take\nher out. This is not determinism. This was a course of\naction that she consciously chose for the purpose of gaining\npower.\n\n2) Valorius' actual motivations were not game-related. They\nwere related to notions of liberty--he did not want the\ntyrannical governmental system resurrected after the good\nfortune of it being destroyed. She took power based on the\nlegality of the destroyed tyranny and declared her intention\nto restart it along with the games that just previously had\nthe two of them trying to kill each other for no good\nreason. It seems that Valorius thought it quite credible\nthat she would succeed.\n\nYou say power corrupting absolutely is not a common Wolfe\ntheme. That's true. But opposing Power for its Own Sake\n(that is, tyranny) is a common Wolfe theme. Silk is a\nrevolutionary. The Rajan is a revolutionary. Able meets and\ndefeats (or reforms) several tyrants.\n\nOn a side note:\nThe name Hunas is an phonetic spelling of Hunus, that is,\nLatin for \"Huns\".\nValorius' name also suggests a Roman culture.\nHowever, I can't find any reference, foreign or domestic,\nfor \"Lurn\".\nWhere did he pull that from? I just can't believe it's\nmerely a bad reference to \"lune\". Wolfe does better than\nthat.\n\nWhen I read the part about Lurn's \"moon\" people, I could\nhave sworn I recalled one of the sides of chess being the\n\"moon\" side or something. I couldn't remember what the other\nside was. But I don't find any source for that\nrecollection.\n\nIt's difficult to determine whether Lurn's side is White or\nBlack. It could be either with her black hair or her albino\nwhite skin. Presumably this was intentional, and cleverly\ndone.\n\nu+16b9\n\nOn 2/10/2011 1:33 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah. I don't know that I have much insightful\nto say, I need to re-read it. On one level I think it\nspeaks of how any combat is just an accident of allegiances,\nbut that's a weird message coming from Wolfe. Chess,\nAllegory, I don't know. I feel like it begs for\nexplication. Maybe I'll look at it again, but the\nqueening process and the subsequent shift towards\n\"overthrowing tyrants\" is bizarre.\n\n--- On Thu, 2/10/11, James Wynn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: (urth) Bloodsport" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T20:44:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bloodsport", "in_reply_to": "<733270.88648.qm@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've not read it, but a leader assuming power legally and trying to\nressurrect the tyrannical system of government that once had two powers\nopposing each other? Sounds a lot like an indictment of incipient socialism\nwithin the United States government.\n\nOr maybe I've just been corrupted by the degenerate filth that passes for\npolitical discourse in our terrible modern age.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nI guess what I see as inscrutable is the relationship between the game and\nthe reality. Is there a \"real\" society outside the allegory of the game?\n\nBecause its pretty harsh to just kill your allies, and works symbolically\nand metaphorically but not realistically. What is the point of the game?\n Real power? Entertainment?\n\n--- On Thu, 2/10/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Bloodsport\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 12:28 PM\n > I'm not sure I would call it\n\"bizarre\". Perhaps I'm missing something. I didn't find it\nin the least inscrutable.\n\nI think thematically it's a Liberation story. The\ncharacters are forced to play a game based on chess but the\nrules are not the same. For example, there are \"bowmen\"\n(perhaps they are equivalent to a rook). The Queening\nprocess of the pawn is a chess allegory as you say but it is\nmotivationally justified on two levels:\n\n1) On a literary level, when Lurn, as a pawn, queened\nherself she restarted the game. In doing so, the Valorius'\n(the Knight's) obligations were set in stone. He had to take\nher out. This is not determinism. This was a course of\naction that she consciously chose for the purpose of gaining\npower.\n\n2) Valorius' actual motivations were not game-related. They\nwere related to notions of liberty--he did not want the\ntyrannical governmental system resurrected after the good\nfortune of it being destroyed. She took power based on the\nlegality of the destroyed tyranny and declared her intention\nto restart it along with the games that just previously had\nthe two of them trying to kill each other for no good\nreason. It seems that Valorius thought it quite credible\nthat she would succeed.\n\nYou say power corrupting absolutely is not a common Wolfe\ntheme. That's true. But opposing Power for its Own Sake\n(that is, tyranny) is a common Wolfe theme. Silk is a\nrevolutionary. The Rajan is a revolutionary. Able meets and\ndefeats (or reforms) several tyrants.\n\nOn a side note:\nThe name Hunas is an phonetic spelling of Hunus, that is,\nLatin for \"Huns\".\nValorius' name also suggests a Roman culture.\nHowever, I can't find any reference, foreign or domestic,\nfor \"Lurn\".\nWhere did he pull that from? I just can't believe it's\nmerely a bad reference to \"lune\". Wolfe does better than\nthat.\n\nWhen I read the part about Lurn's \"moon\" people, I could\nhave sworn I recalled one of the sides of chess being the\n\"moon\" side or something. I couldn't remember what the other\nside was. But I don't find any source for that\nrecollection.\n\nIt's difficult to determine whether Lurn's side is White or\nBlack. It could be either with her black hair or her albino\nwhite skin. Presumably this was intentional, and cleverly\ndone.\n\nu+16b9\n\nOn 2/10/2011 1:33 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yeah. I don't know that I have much insightful\nto say, I need to re-read it. On one level I think it\nspeaks of how any combat is just an accident of allegiances,\nbut that's a weird message coming from Wolfe. Chess,\nAllegory, I don't know. I feel like it begs for\nexplication. Maybe I'll look at it again, but the\nqueening process and the subsequent shift towards\n\"overthrowing tyrants\" is bizarre.\n\n--- On Thu, 2/10/11, James Wynn\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: (urth) Bloodsport" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D545080.2070401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-10T20:54:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bloodsport", "in_reply_to": "<733270.88648.qm@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote-\nI guess what I see as inscrutable is the relationship between the game and the reality. Is there a \"real\" society outside the allegory of the game?\nBecause its pretty harsh to just kill your allies, and works symbolically and metaphorically but not realistically. What is the point of the game? Real power? Entertainment?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understood it as a gladiatorial sport. It seems to have had a \nritualistic element. Each space on the \"board\" represented actual \nmountains. So once again, there is a Roman theme---in that Rome was \noriginally multiple city-states atop seven mountains. So in some sense, \nthe games are played as a representation of the larger society.\n\nThe rules for being selected for the games are not explained, except \nthat you cannot refuse if you are selected. I'm sure there is a society \nin which the games take place. Valorius had a life before the game. His \nfather was a mage which seems to be a cast outside of the game because \nit is believed they bio-engineer the pawns. Even though WE recognize \nthat when Lurn queens herself that is a chess analogy, we have no \nevidence that that is part of the game they were trained to play. \nCertainly Valorious did not see it coming. So presumably rules regarding \nthe making of royalty are outside the bounds of the game (although it is \npossible that traditions in the larger society are represented in the game).\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kjm at panix.com" }, "date": "2011-05-28T18:17:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Bloodsport", "in_reply_to": "<4D544A59.9020607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read it, quite recently. I thought it was lovely and, for Wolfe,\nsurprisingly anti-Royalist, but then on examination not surprising at\nall. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 14:28:09 -0600, James Wynn wrote:\n1) On a literary level, when Lurn, as a pawn, queened herself she \nrestarted the game. In doing so, the Valorius' (the Knight's) \nobligations were set in stone. He had to take her out. This is not \ndeterminism. This was a course of action that she consciously chose for \nthe purpose of gaining power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this observation tremendously. Under the rules that Lurn\nherself is trying to reestablish, Valorius as an opposing knight is\nobligated to continue the game and kill her. But it's also clear that\nhis experiences after the interruption of the game made him doubt the\njustice of the game at all, so he is simultaneously destroying the\ngame while upholding it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You say power corrupting absolutely is not a common Wolfe theme. That's \ntrue. But opposing Power for its Own Sake (that is, tyranny) is a common \nWolfe theme. Silk is a revolutionary. The Rajan is a revolutionary. Able \nmeets and defeats (or reforms) several tyrants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian becomes the unopposable tyrant of his land, but the first act\nof his power is to dissolve the Order which raised him. Wolfe only\nsupports *good* kings. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Kevin J. Maroney | kjm at panix.com | www.maroney.org\nGames are my entire waking life." } ] } ] }