{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5972", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5972, "subject": "Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "messages": 25, "voices": 7, "first": "2011-02-14T22:22:35+00:00", "last": "2011-02-17T01:43:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-14T22:22:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thinking about all of these ideas flying around recently about the nature of\ndream travel and its mechanics, a crazy idea occurred to me. It's really\ncrazy, and not at all likely to be true (although compared to some theories\nit might possibly be made viable with some creative readings of the text).\n The question occasionally comes up as to what dream traveling inhumi fed on\nneighbors would look like? This made me think \"what if we never actually\nmeet neighbors? What if what we are seeing as neighbors in the books are\nactually dream traveling inhumi who LOOK like neighbors because that is what\ntheir souls are like, much like an inhumi fed on humanity appears human in\ndream travel? What if they seeded the Whorl and try to get Horn to stay on\nblue as a means of ensuring their progeny's existence?\n\nPreposterous. And yet, there is a subtle clue in that the possibly only\nfully corporeal 'neighbor' we meet is the barnacle encrusted monstrosity\nthat tries to climb aboard the boat with Horn early in Blue (? is that when\nit happens?) Maybe this a clue that there are only Zombie neighbors left,\nand that all we see of the neighbors from Silk-Horns perspective are these\ndream traveling Inhumi...\n\n\nPreposterous, I know. Or is it? Dum dum DUUUUUUM.. (cue dramatic gopher\nvideo)..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D59CD19.1060703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T00:47:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordon Flato wrote:\n(...) What if what we are seeing as neighbors in the books are actually\ndream traveling inhumi who LOOK like neighbors because that is what their\nsouls are like, much like an inhumi fed on humanity appears human in\ndream travel? (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see nothing preposterous about it. In fact, the idea is that neighbour-fed\ndream-travelling inhumi would be indistinguishable from dream-travelling\nneighbours. The problem is that, if we can't tell them apart, we can't tell\nif it is so either. It might help if we ever met neighbour-fed\n*not*-dream-travelling inhumi, but they can be anywhere the neighbours can." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T05:23:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D59CD19.1060703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jordon Flato: What if what we are seeing as neighbors in the books are\nactually dream traveling inhumi who LOOK like neighbors because that is what\ntheir souls are like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think I see where this is coming from. Still I lean in the direction of James'\ntheory that dream travel is the province of Neighbors (and thus SilkHorn is part\nNeighbor). I think the Neighbors Horn encounters are dream travelling Neighbors, \npurely. They seem to be sort of there and not there, like the sort of beings who \ncould pass through walls but also be able to shake your hand (or have sex or bleed)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yet, there is a subtle clue in that the possibly only\nfully corporeal 'neighbor' we meet is the barnacle encrusted monstrosity\nthat tries to climb aboard the boat with Horn early in Blue (? is that when\nit happens?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, middle of the book (pg. 163 in my copy). And that certainly seems to be the\nbest conclusion based on Horn's theory of that thing which he tries to dismiss but,\nc'mon, is Wolfe really going to waste 3 paragraphs on a false theory? Why would he?\n \nThe idea Horn has about the creature is that one Neighbor is blessed (but really cursed) \nwith immortality. He lives his life in immortal debauchery for a few centuries but then \nall his fellow species-members have \"dwindled\". He throws himself into the sea to be \nsuccored by the goddess who favored him. This goddess is surely The Mother as Seawrack \nhas a power of persuasion over this immensely strong creature.\n \nSo where did all his species members \"Vanish\" to? I agree with those who theorize they\nare on a \"neighboring\" plane of existence. So what we call \"death\" is something which \nfrees the Neighbors to go to another (better?) place, except for this one immortal guy \n(and the immortal goddess who succors him in barnacle crusted glory).\n \n \n[I always think of this creature when they show Bill Turner from Pirates of the\nCaribbean http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2007/05/23/gal_pirates_2.jpg] \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5A7294.1000701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-15T12:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm one of those theorizers, but let's try to reconcile this with what \nthey told Silkhorn:\n\nOf the Neighbors Silkhorn said:\n\"As for me, I have walked with them, and sat with them around their fire.\nThus I know that they exist. They have gone elsewhere -- found a new home\ncircling another short sun. But they have our permission to revisit this one\nwhenever they choose.\" (IGJ, 72)\n\n-Roy\n\nMy assumption is that even if they are on another plane/dimension/level, \nthey still need a short sun and a spherical lump of rock, gas, and water \nto live on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/15/2011 12:23 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSo where did all his species members \"Vanish\" to? I agree with those who theorize they\nare on a \"neighboring\" plane of existence. So what we call \"death\" is something which\nfrees the Neighbors to go to another (better?) place, except for this one immortal guy\n(and the immortal goddess who succors him in barnacle crusted glory)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T13:38:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5A7294.1000701@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: My assumption is that even if they are on another plane/dimension/level, \nthey still need a short sun and a spherical lump of rock, gas, and water \nto live on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, absolutely. My guess is that the dream-travel phenomenon is travel between two closely\nrelated time strands. So back on the \"home planet\", beings have to follow all the laws of\nthe physical universe just as we do.\n \nBut when they travel to a close parallel time strand, they have travelled to another universe.\nSince the universe is different, some physical laws are no longer followed. But since it is a\nvery close universe much is also the same.\n \nNeighbors are faerie to Horn and others on Blue. Humans and inhumi are faerie to those they \nvisit when they dream travel. I think it is something like that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5A8F94.9070209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T14:37:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And yet, there is a subtle clue in that the possibly only\nfully corporeal 'neighbor' we meet is the barnacle encrusted monstrosity\nthat tries to climb aboard the boat with Horn early in Blue (? is that when\nit happens?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nWell, middle of the book (pg. 163 in my copy). And that certainly seems to be the\nbest conclusion based on Horn's theory of that thing which he tries to dismiss but,\nc'mon, is Wolfe really going to waste 3 paragraphs on a false theory? Why would he?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, it is not at all uncommon for Wolfe to spend paragraphs of a \nhand-wringing over theories that are wrong but alert the reader to a \npuzzle to be solved. An obvious example (to me) is when Silk spends 2 or \n3 pages speculating on why he called Blood \"son\" on their first meeting. \nA good rule of thumb for reading Wolfe is that when a theory is offered, \nit is probably wrong in some key way (although in some ways correct as \nwell).\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5A9067.9040207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-15T14:40:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5A8F94.9070209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/15/2011 9:37 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And yet, there is a subtle clue in that the possibly only\nfully corporeal 'neighbor' we meet is the barnacle encrusted \nmonstrosity\nthat tries to climb aboard the boat with Horn early in Blue (? is \nthat when\nit happens?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman-\nWell, middle of the book (pg. 163 in my copy). And that certainly \nseems to be the\nbest conclusion based on Horn's theory of that thing which he tries \nto dismiss but,\nc'mon, is Wolfe really going to waste 3 paragraphs on a false theory? \nWhy would he?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, it is not at all uncommon for Wolfe to spend paragraphs of a \nhand-wringing over theories that are wrong but alert the reader to a \npuzzle to be solved. An obvious example (to me) is when Silk spends 2 \nor 3 pages speculating on why he called Blood \"son\" on their first \nmeeting. A good rule of thumb for reading Wolfe is that when a theory \nis offered, it is probably wrong in some key way (although in some \nways correct as well).\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, and if Wolfe is being parsimonious, the right and wrong parts \ntell us more about the character doing the theorizing than about the \nproblem itself." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T15:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5A9067.9040207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Actually, it is not at all uncommon for Wolfe to spend paragraphs of a \nhand-wringing over theories that are wrong but alert the reader to a \npuzzle to be solved. An obvious example (to me) is when Silk spends 2 or \n3 pages speculating on why he called Blood \"son\" on their first meeting. \nA good rule of thumb for reading Wolfe is that when a theory is offered, \nit is probably wrong in some key way (although in some ways correct as \nwell)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Right, and if Wolfe is being parsimonious, the right and wrong parts \ntell us more about the character doing the theorizing than about the \nproblem itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI agree with both of these assessments so I consider myself suitably chastened in \nregard to general Wolfean auctorial tropes. Still I think this particular passage is\na somewhat unique example/exception. \n \nSince we already know so much about Horn , I don't think these paragraphs are written \nprimarily for expository revelation about the narrator. They really are about the\ncrusty, barnacle creature.\n \nWith Blood and Silk and other elements of the story, we have multiple sections discussing\nthese characters and their relationships. So we have a basis for correcting a wrong theory\nby a character. For this passage this is all we ever get regarding the crusty barnacle guy. \nSo by what basis could we correct anything that Horn gets wrong?\n \nI'm willing to accept enough of what Horn says to agree with the portion of Marc's theory\nthat this is the only example of a fully flesh-and-blood Neighbor that we see.\n \nHorn uses examples from The Whorl of people ostensibly blessed but really cursed by wealth \nor other gifts from the gods (James, interesting that you mention Blood) as the basis for\nhis theory. To me this hearkens to similar examples from earth's own mythology, most obviously\nMidas (a reference I think would be of great interest to James). Perhaps this is how gifts from \nthe gods on all whorls work (so what does that say about Severian and his divine gift?).\n \n \nWolfe makes the crusty creature so strong it swats Babbie aside like a fly. A bit speculative\nbut this reminds me of Nephilim- biblical men of reknown, Baldanders etc. Perhaps this barnacle guy\nis Blue's version. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5AA624.80301@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T16:13:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nI'm willing to accept enough of what Horn says to agree with the portion of Marc's theory\nthat this is the only example of a fully flesh-and-blood Neighbor that we see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have so little to go on regarding Ol' Barnacles. I've always wanted \nto connect him to the Rajan--sort of a Severian-Apu Punchau-style \nencounter or a Pike's Ghost encounter. Unfortunately, if that's true, we \nhave as much hope of untwining that mystery as we did the Apu Punchau \nmystery without \"The Urth of the New Sun\", or Pike's Ghost without \"The \nBook of the Short Sun\".\n\nOn the other hand, I would say that still makes Mr. Barnacles a Neighbor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn uses examples from The Whorl of people ostensibly blessed but really cursed by\nwealth or other gifts from the gods (James, interesting that you mention Blood) as\nthe basis for his theory. To me this hearkens to similar examples from earth's own\nmythology, most obviously Midas (a reference I think would be of great interest to James). Perhaps this is how gifts from the gods on all whorls work (so what does that say about Severian and his divine gift?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If one presumes that Silk was a clone of Typhon, Barnacles-as-Midas \nworks perfectly.\n\nIncidentally, Latro's curse from the gods is also said to be a blessing. \nIt causes him to lose his memory but also enables him to see the divine \nand be a mediator between the divine and the mundane--touch the divine \nand it becomes visible in the mundane realm. In other words, \"divine \ncurse\" and \"divine blessing\" are explained to be just alternate terms \nfor \"touched by a god\".\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T17:06:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5AA624.80301@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Incidentally, Latro's curse from the gods is also said to be a blessing. \nIt causes him to lose his memory but also enables him to see the divine \nand be a mediator between the divine and the mundane--touch the divine \nand it becomes visible in the mundane realm. In other words, \"divine \ncurse\" and \"divine blessing\" are explained to be just alternate terms \nfor \"touched by a god\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't that the way of it, yes. Seems it doesn't matter if it is Hercules, Moses,\nZoroaster or Jesus, the touch of God is both a blessing and curse on a man's life. \nApologies for irreverence but I can imagine the same attributions being placed on the \nlives of 20th Century heroes like Gandhi or MLK jr. 2000 years from now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If one presumes that Silk was a clone of Typhon, Barnacles-as-Midas \nworks perfectly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I shouldn't need explanation for this but I might. IIRC, in your theory, \nMidas figures into the Spring Wind/Typhon legend perhaps with Alexander's\nstory as a mediating influence. But I think the connection isn't the \nobvious one involving Alexander's cutting of Midas' Gordian Knot. How does\nthe connection work? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5AC432.1000201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T18:21:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If one presumes that Silk was a clone of Typhon, Barnacles-as-Midas\nworks perfectly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee-\nI shouldn't need explanation for this but I might. IIRC, in your theory,\nMidas figures into the Spring Wind/Typhon legend perhaps with Alexander's\nstory as a mediating influence. But I think the connection isn't the\nobvious one involving Alexander's cutting of Midas' Gordian Knot. How does\nthe connection work?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it would be nice if Wolfe had worked such a connection into the \nstory. He's pretty good about that sort of thing. I haven't detected it, \nbut it might be that I've failed to catch an allusion.\n\nTyphon, as you say, is an Alexander-figure. When Kypris says of him that \ntook over the world so fast and no one could believe it, I thought of \nAlexander immediately. Additionally, Alexander is member of an important \nlegendary triad that I think was appealing to Wolfe: Alexander, Moses, \nand the Green Man.\n\nThe Midas connection is more allusive but he keeps popping up. His main \nconnection to the story is through Dionysus. Midas found drunk Silenus \nin his rose garden. He took him in and was regaled with a story of a \ncontinent to the West inhabited by the ancient-living powerful \nHyperboreans (Neighbors). In thanks for caring for his mentor, Dionysus \ngranted Midas his golden touch. Then inspired by Silenus' stories, he \nsends an expedition of 10 million colonists to the land of the \nHyperboreans. On the way, they encounter a whirlpool (Short Sun) with a \nstream nearby where two trees were growing: The fruit of one would cause \nthe eater to weep, groan, and pine away (Green). The fruit of the other \nwould make the eater young again, and younger, until he became an infant \nand then disappeared (Blue; Horn speaks of the colony moving back in \ntime in technology).\n\nThe Book of the Long Sun is plotted over the life of Aristaeus, as \ndescribed by Robert Graves, as described by Herodotus, as described by \nPindar (Soldier of the Mist). Aristaeus is the author of the story of \nthe Hyperborans.\n\nFinally, Alexander, Midas, and Dionysus all have horns. D is the \n\"two-horned god\". Alexander is depicted with horns on his coins. \nQuetzal, the Whorl's demon-Dionysus, plants a tamarin tree outside his \nwindow, and that particular species plays a key role in India's version \nof a Midas story--in which Midas grows horns instead of donkey ears.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T18:32:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5AC432.1000201@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:21 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nFinally, Alexander, Midas, and Dionysus all have horns." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which also reminds me that Michelangelo famously depicted Moses with horns." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5ACA48.5030902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T18:47:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Finally, Alexander, Midas, and Dionysus all have horns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which also reminds me that Michelangelo famously depicted Moses with horns" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, yes! I had mentioned that elsewhere, but forgot to mention it here. \nMoses *does* have horns which is why he and Alexander are called \"the \ntwo horned ones\" in the Koran.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T19:00:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5ACA48.5030902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:47 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nAh, yes! I had mentioned that elsewhere, but forgot to mention it here.\nMoses *does* have horns which is why he and Alexander are called \"the two\nhorned ones\" in the Koran." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, no; Moses does _not_ have horns; that is a mistranslation of the\npassage that actually says his face was radiant after spending time\nwith G_d on the mountaintop." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5ACF83.9000109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T19:09:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, yes! I had mentioned that elsewhere, but forgot to mention it here.\nMoses *does* have horns which is why he and Alexander are called \"the two\nhorned ones\" in the Koran." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, no; Moses does _not_ have horns; that is a mistranslation of the\npassage that actually says his face was radiant after spending time\nwith G_d on the mountaintop." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tomayto tomahto. Alexander the Great also didn't _actually_ have horns \neither (and Mars is a farmer not a soldier). The point is that according \nto Islamic and Berber tradition, he and Moses are connected by their \nmeeting through the mediation of the Green Man, and in the fact that \nthey have horns--even sharing a title \"The Two Horned Ones\".\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T19:36:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5ACF83.9000109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, Alexander, Midas, and Dionysus all have horns." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes- Which also reminds me that Michelangelo famously depicted Moses with horns.\n \nOh sheesh, I hadn't heard of that. I wonder if Wolfe made the horned connection to Moses \n(correct or not) with the possible Dionysian/Father Inire iteration Isangoma being associated\nwith the Mosaic Mt. Nebo.\n \nWas a horned Moses a way of Michelangelo saying the jews have been made scapegoats?\n \nThe origin of that term seems to have come from the goat-associated fallen angel Azazel.\n \nPrometheus, Azazel, Moses, Fenrir all seem to be mythological guys who received blame and were \npunished by being bound to (or under) a rock. I guess Typhon also fits that category. Hints of\nall these guys seem to peek from behind the bushes of BotNS. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T19:47:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nWas a horned Moses a way of Michelangelo saying the jews have been made scapegoats?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's some argument about what it means. The majority believe that\nit comes from a misreading of Exodus, as I indicated previously;\nhowever there is a group who believe that the horns on Moses' head\nwere Michelangelo's attempt to depict \"radiant\" in stone, which, if\nso, obviously didn't work out so well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Prometheus, Azazel, Moses, Fenrir all seem to be mythological guys who received blame and were\npunished by being bound to (or under) a rock." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Moses bound to/under a rock? Where's this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess Typhon also fits that category." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Suddenly I have a glimpse of an interpretive schema in which Typhon is\nactually the real hero of the Solar cycle..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5AE99E.9050608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T21:01:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes-\nWhich also reminds me that Michelangelo famously depicted Moses with \nhorns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee-\nOh sheesh, I hadn't heard of that. I wonder if Wolfe made the horned connection to Moses\n(correct or not) with the possible Dionysian/Father Inire iteration Isangoma being associated\nwith the Mosaic Mt. Nebo. Was a horned Moses a way of Michelangelo saying the jews have been made scapegoats? The origin of that term seems to have come from the goat-associated fallen angel Azazel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don' think so. It was a common misunderstanding based on (I think) St. \nJerome's translation. In fact, I believe there was a commonly held myth \nis some places that all Jews has horns under their hats.\n\nBut there is (was) a theoretical association between that Mt. Sinai and \nDionysus' Mt. Nyssa. I don't know if that association was based on the \nidea that they both had horns or if the associations arose independently \nIt would be very Wolfean if the histories of these ideas were \nindependent and then converged." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/15/2011 1:47 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSuddenly I have a glimpse of an interpretive schema in which Typhon is\nactually the real hero of the Solar cycle..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My personal interpretive schema is that Typhon is the failed hero of the \npre-Red Sun Urth Cycle. I think \"An Evil Guest\" is sort of an attempt \nto tell that story.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T21:12:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5AE99E.9050608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: There's some argument about what it means. The majority believe that\nit comes from a misreading of Exodus, as I indicated previously;\nhowever there is a group who believe that the horns on Moses' head\nwere Michelangelo's attempt to depict \"radiant\" in stone, which, if\nso, obviously didn't work out so well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I was confused whether this was a Koran or Exodus misreading. Looks like it was a Latin\ntranslation of the Bible that got \"cornuta\" or horned as the description of Moses' face while\nthe Greek got \"glorified\" and Hebrew got \"radiant\".\n\nBut you know, I'm with Wolfe here. The ancient people were just as smart and clever with words\nas we are. Perhaps more so, since their visual depictions were more limited and labor-intensive\nthan ours. They knew they were messing around by calling Moses \"horned\". And surely a master like\nMichaelangelo would know that giving a guy only two short stubby \"rays of light\" would make a\njewish guy look more goat-like than radiant. http://www.christianity-revealed.com/cr/images/moses1.jpg\n\n\nThe whole statue of Moses looks very Dionysian to me.\nhttp://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/michelangelo-sculptures-16.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moses bound to/under a rock? Where's this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, not with a chain. But he was unable to go past Mt. Nebo, only viewing the promised land from there.\nAnd he died soon after viewing it. Does Wolfe (and Michaelangelo?) make the connection between Moses and\nPrometheus/Azazel and scapegoats? I dunno. Bringer of fire, light, laws, war, weapons, beautification and\ntaking the blame and punshment from a jealous father god seems to be a recurring underlying theme in ancient\nreligion. (actually bringing water inappropriately was apparently Moses' biggest sin)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Suddenly I have a glimpse of an interpretive schema in which Typhon is actually the real hero of the Solar cycle..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I kinda know what you mean. I always hated Typhon and considered him the worst of all villains. Until it occurred\nto me that he didn't really do anything so bad, especially with regard to Severian. No different than what\nSeverian did to Eata in coercing him to be his second. Some conquering, some ruling, some sexual perversion but\nno worse than the Commonwealth is, in its current state. Who did more for humanity, Typhon or Severian...\n\nIt seems to me that maybe in the Sun Series things are just reversed from Christianity. The Outsider is a dark God who\ncasts sun and light gods as villains, while ours is a God of Light who casts the dark gods of paganism as villains.\nIs finding balance what Jesus did for our universe? Grasping at straws but...at least grasping. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6E0BDC25BF414A02B6C55769C12CECC2@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-15T21:17:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nThe whole statue of Moses looks very Dionysian to me.\nhttp://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/michelangelo-sculptures-16.jpg" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah... it really brings the androgyny out ;-)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5AF54B.7090702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-15T21:51:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/15/2011 3:12 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOkay, I was confused whether this was a Koran or Exodus misreading. Looks like it was a Latin\ntranslation of the Bible that got \"cornuta\" or horned as the description of Moses' face while\nthe Greek got \"glorified\" and Hebrew got \"radiant\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember that Mohammed grew up in a Christianized society. The Koran \ntakes some divergent paths from Orthodox Christianity but, for example, \nit accepts the virgin birth of Jesus as a given. If the Koran has a \nconceptual error regarding Moses, it probably came from Christians.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5AF911.3050809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-15T22:07:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 2/15/2011 4:12 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nMoses bound to/under a rock? Where's this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, not with a chain. But he was unable to go past Mt. Nebo, only viewing the promised land from there.\nAnd he died soon after viewing it. Does Wolfe (and Michaelangelo?) make the connection between Moses and\nPrometheus/Azazel and scapegoats? I dunno. Bringer of fire, light, laws, war, weapons, beautification and\ntaking the blame and punshment from a jealous father god seems to be a recurring underlying theme in ancient\nreligion. (actually bringing water inappropriately was apparently Moses' biggest sin)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The woman read: \"Then he went up from the plain to Mt. Nebo, the \nheadland that faces the city, and the Compassionating showed him the \nwhole country, all the land as far as the Western Sea. Then he said to \nhim: 'This is the land I swore to your fathers I should give their sons. \nYou have seen it, but you shall not set your feet upon it.' So there he \ndied, and was buried in the ravine.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Suddenly I have a glimpse of an interpretive schema in which Typhon is actually the real hero of the Solar cycle..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I kinda know what you mean. I always hated Typhon and considered him the worst of all villains. Until it occurred\nto me that he didn't really do anything so bad, especially with regard to Severian. No different than what\nSeverian did to Eata in coercing him to be his second. Some conquering, some ruling, some sexual perversion but\nno worse than the Commonwealth is, in its current state. Who did more for humanity, Typhon or Severian..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean Typhon is one of those blond jock heroes we love to hate even \nthough they are really decent enough, and Severian is a chainsmoking \ngoth in black, the kind of rebel/antihero we love to love? I seem to \nrecall Lancelot being like that. I think Wolfe has touched on that theme \nelsewhere. (Or Jack vs Sawyer, for a Lost analogy.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that maybe in the Sun Series things are just reversed from Christianity. The Outsider is a dark God who casts sun and light gods as villains, while ours is a God of Light who casts the dark gods of paganism as villains. Is finding balance what Jesus did for our universe? Grasping at straws but...at least grasping." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depends what you mean by \"things.\" But achieving \"balance\" could be \ncalled \"conciliation.\" Even \"reconciliation.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jordon Flato", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-16T01:09:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5AF911.3050809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As an aside back to what I originally posted in this topic (i.e. that maybe\nthe Neighbors were really dream traveling inhumi) I want to make it crystal\nperfectly completely clear that I actually don't believe that at all. I was\njust so intrigued by all of the possibilities raised by everyone and the\npossible permutations of dream travel/soul enshrining etc etc that I\ncouldn't resist throwing that wrench out there for the proverbial monkey\nworks.\n\nContiune." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5BCE23.8060407@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-16T13:16:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5AF911.3050809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC There were tribes in which Modred was viewed as a hero. There was a \nstory of Arthur attempting to get rid of Modred by putting him and all \nthe infants of Britain into baskets and setting them adrift in the sea. \nIn mythology heroes and villains trade roles almost as often as DC comic \ncharacters.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l-\nSuddenly I have a glimpse of an interpretive schema in which Typhon \nis actually the real hero\nof the Solar cycle..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee-\nI kinda know what you mean. I always hated Typhon and considered him \nthe worst of all villains.\nUntil it occurred to me that he didn't really do anything so bad, \nespecially with regard to Severian.\nNo different than what Severian did to Eata in coercing him to be his \nsecond. Some conquering,\nsome ruling, some sexual perversion but no worse than the \nCommonwealth is, in its current state.\nWho did more for humanity, Typhon or Severian..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David-\nYou mean Typhon is one of those blond jock heroes we love to hate even \nthough they are really decent enough, and Severian is a chainsmoking \ngoth in black, the kind of rebel/antihero we love to love? I seem to \nrecall Lancelot being like that. I think Wolfe has touched on that \ntheme elsewhere. (Or Jack vs Sawyer, for a Lost analogy.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D5C7D57.3040308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-17T01:43:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Are the Neighbors REALLY the Neighbors?", "in_reply_to": "<4D5BCE23.8060407@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sometimes that's true. And I read today of a piece of Russian Tolkien \nfan fiction---a novel in which Mordor is the oppressed and the elves are \nthe oppressor. Apparently it's not bad!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/16/2011 8:16 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nIIRC There were tribes in which Modred was viewed as a hero. There was \na story of Arthur attempting to get rid of Modred by putting him and \nall the infants of Britain into baskets and setting them adrift in the \nsea. In mythology heroes and villains trade roles almost as often as \nDC comic characters.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Dan'l-\nSuddenly I have a glimpse of an interpretive schema in which Typhon \nis actually the real hero\nof the Solar cycle..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lee-\nI kinda know what you mean. I always hated Typhon and considered him \nthe worst of all villains.\nUntil it occurred to me that he didn't really do anything so bad, \nespecially with regard to Severian.\nNo different than what Severian did to Eata in coercing him to be \nhis second. Some conquering,\nsome ruling, some sexual perversion but no worse than the \nCommonwealth is, in its current state.\nWho did more for humanity, Typhon or Severian..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David-\nYou mean Typhon is one of those blond jock heroes we love to hate \neven though they are really decent enough, and Severian is a \nchainsmoking goth in black, the kind of rebel/antihero we love to \nlove? I seem to recall Lancelot being like that. I think Wolfe has \ntouched on that theme elsewhere. (Or Jack vs Sawyer, for a Lost \nanalogy.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }