{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5978", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5978, "subject": "This week in Google alerts; story with Gaiman:", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2011-02-19T22:21:05+00:00", "last": "2011-02-20T01:54:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-02-19T22:21:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts; story with Gaiman:", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n. As you say, Latin and English would be nearly indistinguishable in" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian's day. What I think is that the language represented as Latin in\nBotNS is to the contemporary language of Severian's day as Latin is to the\nEnglish of today. ?And I don't think the language Thea speaks of (which is\nactually the English we speak) ?holds that position. ?It seems more distant.\n\nI other words I think:\n\n : :: Latin : English\n : :: :\nEnglish" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with all this. But another question is whether real Latin is\nbeing used in _Long Sun_ (in 'vox populi. vox Dei', for instance). It\nmight be, because I take it that the Whorl cultures are deliberate\nreconstructions, inspired by memories of 'our' time (which, as Cyriaca\nexplains, were restored to humans by computers at the end of the First\nEmpire). On the other hand, one might wonder whether actual languages\nwere among what was restored; the books in Ultan's library would seem\nnot to be books handed down from 'our' time, but books written at the\nend of the First Empire, presumably in current languages, enshrining\nknowledge from an earlier time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-02-20T01:31:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts; story with Gaiman:", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " As you say, Latin and English would be nearly indistinguishable in\nSeverian's day. What I think is that the language represented as Latin \nin\nBotNS is to the contemporary language of Severian's day as Latin is to \nthe\nEnglish of today. And I don't think the language Thea speaks of (which \nis\nactually the English we speak) holds that position. It seems more \ndistant.\n\nI other words I think:\n\n : :: Latin : English\n : :: \n:\nEnglish" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with all this. But another question is whether real Latin is\nbeing used in _Long Sun_ (in 'vox populi. vox Dei', for instance). It\nmight be, because I take it that the Whorl cultures are deliberate\nreconstructions, inspired by memories of 'our' time (which, as Cyriaca\nexplains, were restored to humans by computers at the end of the First\nEmpire). On the other hand, one might wonder whether actual languages\nwere among what was restored; the books in Ultan's library would seem\nnot to be books handed down from 'our' time, but books written at the\nend of the First Empire, presumably in current languages, enshrining\nknowledge from an earlier time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm, I have never been inclined to take Cyriaca's story as other than a myth \nwith perhaps a grain of truth to it. (Though Cordwainer Smith's future \nhistory contains a similar event.)\n\nYour idea about the Whorl cultures is interesting. They *do* seem rather \nmore unique and 'ethnic' than one would expect from colonists coming from a \nworld which was surely at least as much a global village as our own. On the \nother hand, the 'Indian' type culture in Gaon seems to speak the same \nlanguage as that spoken in Viron (or does it?). The Trivigauntis have their \nown 'high language' but their normal language seems to be the same as in \nViron. The Sleepers do not seem to have any specially imposed cultural \nnorms. It is hard to put any definitive pattern to it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D607195.7030209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-20T01:42:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts; story with Gaiman:", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 5:21 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:\n\n. As you say, Latin and English would be nearly indistinguishable in\nSeverian's day. What I think is that the language represented as Latin in\nBotNS is to the contemporary language of Severian's day as Latin is to the\nEnglish of today. And I don't think the language Thea speaks of (which is\nactually the English we speak) holds that position. It seems more distant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I other words I think:\n\n : :: Latin : English\n : :: :\nEnglish" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with all this. But another question is whether real Latin is\nbeing used in _Long Sun_ (in 'vox populi. vox Dei', for instance). It\nmight be, because I take it that the Whorl cultures are deliberate\nreconstructions, inspired by memories of 'our' time (which, as Cyriaca\nexplains, were restored to humans by computers at the end of the First\nEmpire). On the other hand, one might wonder whether actual languages\nwere among what was restored; the books in Ultan's library would seem\nnot to be books handed down from 'our' time, but books written at the\nend of the First Empire, presumably in current languages, enshrining\nknowledge from an earlier time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D60745C.6000500@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-02-20T01:54:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts; story with Gaiman:", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2011 8:31 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree with all this. But another question is whether real Latin is\nbeing used in _Long Sun_ (in 'vox populi. vox Dei', for instance). It\nmight be, because I take it that the Whorl cultures are deliberate\nreconstructions, inspired by memories of 'our' time (which, as Cyriaca\nexplains, were restored to humans by computers at the end of the First\nEmpire). On the other hand, one might wonder whether actual languages\nwere among what was restored; the books in Ultan's library would seem\nnot to be books handed down from 'our' time, but books written at the\nend of the First Empire, presumably in current languages, enshrining\nknowledge from an earlier time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm, I have never been inclined to take Cyriaca's story as other than \na myth with perhaps a grain of truth to it. (Though Cordwainer \nSmith's future history contains a similar event.)\n\nYour idea about the Whorl cultures is interesting. They *do* seem \nrather more unique and 'ethnic' than one would expect from colonists \ncoming from a world which was surely at least as much a global village \nas our own. On the other hand, the 'Indian' type culture in Gaon \nseems to speak the same language as that spoken in Viron (or does \nit?). The Trivigauntis have their own 'high language' but their \nnormal language seems to be the same as in Viron. The Sleepers do not \nseem to have any specially imposed cultural norms. It is hard to put \nany definitive pattern to it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does not need to have been a successful recreation. Just an \nattempt---with a Babel-like resonance." } ] } ] }