{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5995", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5995, "subject": "Drotte-Roche mixup (was: Introduction and Breath)", "messages": 76, "voices": 13, "first": "2011-04-16T20:53:36+00:00", "last": "2011-06-03T10:38:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2011-04-16T20:53:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup (was: Introduction and Breath)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nI've always felt that this looks far more like a faux-pas on the part\nof Wolfe than anything to do with Severian's memory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Obviously one can't complain about feelings, but I just can't\nunderstand how you may feel that way. Only if you feel it's too\ncartoonish to be true, but this isn't at all the only instance of such\nhumour by GW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few reasons why I feel this way:\nFirstly, because substituting one name for another is an easy mistake\nfor a writer to make, and a hard one for an editor to spot. Mistakes\nget published all the time.\n\nSecondly, because substituting one word for an associated one is a\ncommon error not of memory, but of language. We all do it. You\nmentally reach for a word, and because your attention is elsewhere,\nyou don't notice that you've taken the one that was lying next to it\ninstead. If a journalist writes that 'the sherrif opened the new\nsports field' when he meant to write 'the mayor opened the new sports\nfield', it isn't because he remembers a man with a pointy badge and a\nten-gallon hat cutting the ribbon.\n\nIf Severian consistently recalled that Roche was the one who said he\nsaw the pikes, and then three books later, in a chance remark, Drotte\nremembered saying it, that would be a good way to show that Severian's\nmemory was suspect. But that doesn't happen. Severian says Roche said\nit, then almost immediately he says Drotte said it. If that's an error\nof memory, then Severian has not only remembered an incident in two\ncompletely different ways in the space of a couple of paragraphs, but\nhe's forgotten what he *wrote* just two paragraphs ago. That's not\nimperfect memory. That's serious brain damage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 12:47:16 +0100\nFrom: Matthew Knapton \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Introduction and Breath\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nHi.\n\nI haven't read any ..Sun books outside of the Book of the New Sun, and don't\nhave them to hand to look up references. However!\n\nI buy into the unreliable-Severian. While it's certainly possible that his\nrepeatedly-claimed perfect memory isn't actually perfect (and either he\nlies, or has convinced himself that his subconscious inventions are real\nmemories), we can be generous to Severian and assume that his memory is\nindeed perfect. But that doesn't help his case, because perfect recall isn't\nthe only thing required to be an omniscient narrator - he lacks perfect\nunderstanding as well. He might be able to remember every scene of his life,\nbut if he misunderstands what he sees, or attributes purposes and\nimplications to the actions and appearance of people around him incorrectly,\nhe's just as unreliable a narrator as someone who doesn't well remember the\nscene in question. Maybe even more unreliable, so to speak, or at least less\nhelpful, since the person-without-perfect-memory would admit to gaps in the\nstory.\n\nAnd of course, having a perfect memory doesn't mean it's all transcribed\ninto his writing. At some point I think Severian actually writes that he has\n\"left out details which are unimportant\", noting a few sentences later\n(without irony) that he has \"no sense of perspective\".\n\nPersonally I also think his memory is faulty (though I tend to think he's\ndeceiving himself that what he remembers is perfect, rather than 'actively'\nlying); the bits which got me early on were his recollections of Thecla.\nLike I say I don't have my copies of the books to hand, but fairly early on\ndoesn't he give one account of Thecla's death, and then later (in an offhand\ncomment) give an entirely different one? His description of their\nrelationship as sexual or platonic seems to change as the books goes on,\ntoo.\n\nI feel like cataloguing examples sort of misses the point though; if there's\none thing a reader of Gene Wolfe knows it's that he isn't going to spell\nanything out in crayon :) and \"unreliable narration\", for one reason or\nanother, does seem to be a recurring theme throughout a lot of his books.\n\n\nOn Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So glad people are asking about Severian as unreliable narrator! ?I suspect\nit's one of those ideas that someone said in a review and then it got\nblurbed on a jacket cover and then it just became the 'official'\ninterpretation and is now in an endless repeat loop. ?I don't think I have\never yet mentioned it in comments or reviews about New Sun as I simply don't\nunderstand it. ?I'm totally open to being shown how it is the case, but the\nreasons given in this thread are, frankly, unconvincing. ?They show how\nWolfe's narrative art overall is strange and tricksy and indirect and\nelusive - things I *do* talk about in commenting on all of Wolfe's fiction\n- but not how Severian himself overall is helpfully and accurately described\nas an 'unreliable narrator' or how this is a central and significant trope\nthat characterises tBotNS. ?It's all hints and suspicions and possibilities\n- which are great, but should be left at that I think.\n\nWe still await the carefully documented and argued case for Severian as\nunreliable narrator.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n2011/4/15 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Antonin Scriabin wrote (15-04-2011 17:48):\n\n?Severian's perfect memory seems selective. ?There are moments\nwhere seems to say \"I have a perfect memory, except for when I don't\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Am I misremembering, or one of the first pages of NS goes like this: 'So\nDrotte was doing something... did I mention I have a perfect memory? I have\na perfect memory! Anyway, Roche was doing something...'?\n\nAlmost cartoonish. Roger Rabbitish.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-04-16T23:39:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup (was: Introduction and Breath)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A few reasons why I feel this way:\nFirstly, because substituting one name for another is an easy mistake\nfor a writer to make, and a hard one for an editor to spot. Mistakes\nget published all the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "memory was suspect. But that doesn't happen. Severian says Roche said\nit, then almost immediately he says Drotte said it. If that's an error\nof memory, then Severian has not only remembered an incident in two\ncompletely different ways in the space of a couple of paragraphs, but\nhe's forgotten what he *wrote* just two paragraphs ago. That's not\nimperfect memory. That's serious brain damage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We do know that various office functions are still being expected of Sev\nas he writes. Time passes, Dr Talos comes and goes. Sev could as easily\ngone a final weekend trip, moved his bowels, and approved a dozen\nexecutions between writing \"Roche\" and \"Drotte\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAA3A88.40508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-17T00:55:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup (was: Introduction and Breath)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've always felt that this looks far more like a faux-pas on the part\nof Wolfe than anything to do with Severian's memory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Ant?nio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Obviously one can't complain about feelings, but I just can't\nunderstand how you may feel that way. Only if you feel it's too\ncartoonish to be true, but this isn't at all the only instance of such\nhumour by GW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A few reasons why I feel this way:\nFirstly, because substituting one name for another is an easy mistake\nfor a writer to make, and a hard one for an editor to spot. Mistakes\nget published all the time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the part I find unbelievable. A mistake such as this doesn't \nhappen on such a passage from such an author. First, it'd be much of a \ncoincidence; second, it's the kind of stuff I'm positive he cares more \nabout in his proof-readings; third, it's too conspicuous, I got it \noutright, dense as I am, and absolutely not on the lookout for such \nstuff at the time; fourth, it's right in the beginning of the book(s), \nwith all the spotlights on it.\n\n(And from the moment I don't find this believable, there has to be a \nmotive for the mixup, whatever it is.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Secondly, because substituting one word for an associated one is a\ncommon error not of memory, but of language. We all do it (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good point. But for one it doesn't completely hold. Such memory \nerrors - in 'such' I include the proximity of paragraphs - *are* \npossible. But more importantly, it may well be a simple language error, \nyet it makes the point: even if his memory *is* perfect, even if he's \nnot out to fool us, there are still ways in which the narrative may \ndeceive us.\n\nIf it's a GW error, well, it looks just like the best of what he usually \ndoes." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2011-04-17T19:18:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAA3A88.40508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWe do know that various office functions are still being expected of Sev\nas he writes. Time passes, Dr Talos comes and goes. Sev could as easily\ngone a final weekend trip, moved his bowels, and approved a dozen\nexecutions between writing \"Roche\" and \"Drotte\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He takes a break on page *two* of his memoirs? In the middle of\nwriting an exciting bit? I don't find that very persuasive. Moreover,\nthe reason we know about these little interruptions is because\nSeverian tells us when they happen. If Wolfe wanted us to think that\nSeverian had made a memory slip across such an interruption, he could\nhave written it that way.\n\nAntonio Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the part I find unbelievable. A mistake such as this doesn't\nhappen on such a passage from such an author. First, it'd be much of a\ncoincidence; second, it's the kind of stuff I'm positive he cares more\nabout in his proof-readings; third, it's too conspicuous, I got it\noutright, dense as I am, and absolutely not on the lookout for such\nstuff at the time; fourth, it's right in the beginning of the book(s),\nwith all the spotlights on it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is as fallible as every writer, and every writer makes mistakes.\nAnd it doesn't matter how much Wolfe cares about getting it right. You\ncan't strap-on a larger brain just because you care.\n\nVigilance will net you 99% of the mistakes in a manuscript. But\ndoubling that vigilance will only net you 99.1%. Why? Because the\nmistakes you miss are the ones where your brain doesn't *see* a\nmistake at all. Wolfe spelt correctly all sorts of obscure and archaic\nwords in TSotT, but he still got a basic one, 'onagers', wrong. Why?\nBecause he *thought* it was the right spelling. Why did the\ncopy-editor miss it? Because he assumed that clever Mr Wolfe knew what\nhe was talking about. This is how mistakes get through.\n\nI proofread for a living, and you wouldn't believe the things I see,\nor the things that both I and the editor miss. I remember a writer who\nwrote 'inseminate' when he meant 'estimate', and I'm not making that\nup. Yesterday evening - and British TV viewers could back me up on\nthis one - I heard a BBC 2 announcer inform us that in a few minutes\nwe'd see a documentary in which Ernest Shackleton's ancestors retraced\nhis fateful journey to the Antarctic. I watched, but there was a\ndisappointing lack of zombies.\n\nThe fact that the Drotte-Roche mixup is in chapter I doesn't impress\nme much either. Who are Drotte and Roche to us then but\ninterchangeable cyphers, the Merry and Pippin of future-earth? Here's\nsomething else that's in Chapter I: a line that goes 'While he shifted\nhis ground I saw Vodalus wrench the knife free and drive it into the\nleader's throat.'\n\nExcept that in my copies of TSotT, the letter 'f' is missing from the\nthird word. I kid you not.\n\nAgain, British readers could back me up on this. I have the 1981 Arrow\npaperbacks, but I vaguely recall seeing the same mistake in later\nimprints. I assume this is a typesetter's error and not found in US\neditions, or someone would have mentioned it by now.\n\nFinally, purely as a point of interest, in the manuscript Wolfe\nsubmitted chapter I *wasn't* the beginning of the book anyway. It was\nchapter II. It was moved because it made for a punchier opening.\n\nSo maybe everyone really was super-vigilant at proofreading the start\nof the novel, and the mistake was missed when they all kicked back and\nrelaxed in chapter II.\n\nOnly joking. :-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9431077F99BB45B59D06489890764663@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-17T20:13:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" \nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We do know that various office functions are still being expected of Sev\nas he writes. Time passes, Dr Talos comes and goes. Sev could as easily\ngone a final weekend trip, moved his bowels, and approved a dozen\nexecutions between writing \"Roche\" and \"Drotte\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He takes a break on page *two* of his memoirs? In the middle of\nwriting an exciting bit? I don't find that very persuasive. Moreover,\nthe reason we know about these little interruptions is because\nSeverian tells us when they happen. If Wolfe wanted us to think that\nSeverian had made a memory slip across such an interruption, he could\nhave written it that way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some supporting evidence that Severian is hard to interrupt when he gets \ninto the flow of writing:\n\"I have also ordered that Nicarete be brought to me, and when I was writing \nof our capture, a moment ago, my chamberlain entered to say she waited my \npleasure.\" (The Claw of the Conciliator)\n\nThe capture was some 25-30 pages earlier.\n\nHopefully some functionary of Severian's made sure that Nicarete was \nsupplied with tea and buns while she waited in Severian's antechamber...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAB4D50.2090204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-17T20:28:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have seen plenty of blatant errors in novels, including when a \ncharacter's name is wrong, albeit usually in worse and cheaper books \nthan Wolfe's. It is quite possible for an editor to simply miss the \nsignificance of what we regard as plain clues.\n\nAs an example, in the audio version of Calde of the Long Sun, the \nnarrator (who does great voices even if he occasionally misses an easy \npronunciation!) gives Blood a new voice at Maytera Mint's sacrifice, \nwhen Blood plainly appears as himself (his approximate age, weight, \nperfume, shorter dark young man with him) but is not named. It is clear \nthat the narrator simply didn't realize this person was Blood. (Too bad, \nbecause his voicing of Blood is tremendous.)\n\nAnd Tony is right that Drotte and Roche mean nothing to the reader at \nthis point, perhaps especially because the chapter might have been \ninsufficiently rewritten to make it serve as chapter 1.\n\nIt could have been worse: In one of the other such errors I have seen, \nthere is a love triangle between two men and a woman. Man #1 is arguing \nwith the woman in her house when suddenly his part of the conversation \nis taken over by Man #2. It's quite disorienting.\n\nAnd it wasn't science fiction. I have thought many times since then that \nan experimental novel of creeping errors indicating the true chaotic \nnature of the universe (in the vein of /At Swim-Two-Birds/) might be fun \nto write, but this was not that novel.\n\nI am not sure Wolfe would have had Severian say anything as plain as \n\"Well, as I was saying before the chambermaid came to empty the \nchamberpot, Drotte said....\" Severian's bona fides as having eidetic \nmemory must be established before such games can be played, but even \nthen he cannot be portrayed as being so easily thrown off as that. His \nerrors are less easily discovered, and should be expected to be \ndeliberate ones (on Severian's part), such as pretending he didn't know \nhe was sleeping with his grandmother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2011 3:18 PM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We do know that various office functions are still being expected of Sev\nas he writes. Time passes, Dr Talos comes and goes. Sev could as easily\ngone a final weekend trip, moved his bowels, and approved a dozen\nexecutions between writing \"Roche\" and \"Drotte\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He takes a break on page *two* of his memoirs? In the middle of\nwriting an exciting bit? I don't find that very persuasive. Moreover,\nthe reason we know about these little interruptions is because\nSeverian tells us when they happen. If Wolfe wanted us to think that\nSeverian had made a memory slip across such an interruption, he could\nhave written it that way.\n\nAntonio Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is the part I find unbelievable. A mistake such as this doesn't\nhappen on such a passage from such an author. First, it'd be much of a\ncoincidence; second, it's the kind of stuff I'm positive he cares more\nabout in his proof-readings; third, it's too conspicuous, I got it\noutright, dense as I am, and absolutely not on the lookout for such\nstuff at the time; fourth, it's right in the beginning of the book(s),\nwith all the spotlights on it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is as fallible as every writer, and every writer makes mistakes.\nAnd it doesn't matter how much Wolfe cares about getting it right. You\ncan't strap-on a larger brain just because you care.\n\nVigilance will net you 99% of the mistakes in a manuscript. But\ndoubling that vigilance will only net you 99.1%. Why? Because the\nmistakes you miss are the ones where your brain doesn't *see* a\nmistake at all. Wolfe spelt correctly all sorts of obscure and archaic\nwords in TSotT, but he still got a basic one, 'onagers', wrong. Why?\nBecause he *thought* it was the right spelling. Why did the\ncopy-editor miss it? Because he assumed that clever Mr Wolfe knew what\nhe was talking about. This is how mistakes get through.\n\nI proofread for a living, and you wouldn't believe the things I see,\nor the things that both I and the editor miss. I remember a writer who\nwrote 'inseminate' when he meant 'estimate', and I'm not making that\nup. Yesterday evening - and British TV viewers could back me up on\nthis one - I heard a BBC 2 announcer inform us that in a few minutes\nwe'd see a documentary in which Ernest Shackleton's ancestors retraced\nhis fateful journey to the Antarctic. I watched, but there was a\ndisappointing lack of zombies.\n\nThe fact that the Drotte-Roche mixup is in chapter I doesn't impress\nme much either. Who are Drotte and Roche to us then but\ninterchangeable cyphers, the Merry and Pippin of future-earth? Here's\nsomething else that's in Chapter I: a line that goes 'While he shifted\nhis ground I saw Vodalus wrench the knife free and drive it into the\nleader's throat.'\n\nExcept that in my copies of TSotT, the letter 'f' is missing from the\nthird word. I kid you not.\n\nAgain, British readers could back me up on this. I have the 1981 Arrow\npaperbacks, but I vaguely recall seeing the same mistake in later\nimprints. I assume this is a typesetter's error and not found in US\neditions, or someone would have mentioned it by now.\n\nFinally, purely as a point of interest, in the manuscript Wolfe\nsubmitted chapter I *wasn't* the beginning of the book anyway. It was\nchapter II. It was moved because it made for a punchier opening.\n\nSo maybe everyone really was super-vigilant at proofreading the start\nof the novel, and the mistake was missed when they all kicked back and\nrelaxed in chapter II.\n\nOnly joking. :-)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAB4DF9.2050204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-17T20:30:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<9431077F99BB45B59D06489890764663@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good catch!\n\n(bonus points for antechamber reference, except I recall matte and \nchocolate being the two choices---???)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2011 4:13 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Tony Ellis\" \nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We do know that various office functions are still being expected of \nSev\nas he writes. Time passes, Dr Talos comes and goes. Sev could as easily\ngone a final weekend trip, moved his bowels, and approved a dozen\nexecutions between writing \"Roche\" and \"Drotte\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He takes a break on page *two* of his memoirs? In the middle of\nwriting an exciting bit? I don't find that very persuasive. Moreover,\nthe reason we know about these little interruptions is because\nSeverian tells us when they happen. If Wolfe wanted us to think that\nSeverian had made a memory slip across such an interruption, he could\nhave written it that way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some supporting evidence that Severian is hard to interrupt when he \ngets into the flow of writing:\n\"I have also ordered that Nicarete be brought to me, and when I was \nwriting of our capture, a moment ago, my chamberlain entered to say \nshe waited my pleasure.\" (The Claw of the Conciliator)\n\nThe capture was some 25-30 pages earlier.\n\nHopefully some functionary of Severian's made sure that Nicarete was \nsupplied with tea and buns while she waited in Severian's antechamber...\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7D0802CF-1550-4A9A-A347-CE712DE352E9@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-17T20:52:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's all well, Troy, but aside from the chapter having not been the \noriginal first, it's nothing you hadn't said before. I'm certainly not \nabout to change your opinion, but mine hasn't changed either.\n\nI'm afraid that if we have to admit authorial mistakes without \ndefinite evidence as an explanation for this kind of stuff, we may as \nwell not discuss half of Gene Wolfe's work." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00120061-E79E-4D7F-A814-FF2550CEC901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-17T20:58:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAB4D50.2090204@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/04/17, ?s 21:28, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Tony is right that Drotte and Roche mean nothing to the reader \nat this point, perhaps especially because the chapter might have \nbeen insufficiently rewritten to make it serve as chapter 1." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I vehemently disagree. I think this kind of analysis is just what \nWolfe as a writer has been working against since forever. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAB583F.3020400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-17T21:14:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<00120061-E79E-4D7F-A814-FF2550CEC901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe as a writer has been working against the kind of analysis that \nallows for authorial error in the case of obvious discrepancies that \nhave no possible meaning consistent with the rest of the work? That, \ni.e., authors are infallible?\n\nOr was Drotte momentarily Roche, or Roche Drotte?\n\nIs Severian to be seen, on the basis of one passage, as a clumsy \nbumbling oaf who can't remember anything? Does it mean that he really \ndoesn't have a good memory at all but that he pretends and makes things \nup and isn't even very good at it, except that 100% of the rest of the \ntime he's extremely good at it? Hey, maybe he made up the whole \nacid-trip to Yesod.\n\nIt's not OUR theory that would make analysis of BOTNS impossible---it's \nyours. It's certainly possible that we could discover \"errors\" that are \nexplained by Thecla's or some other's presence in his brain, but this is \nnot one of them. YOU are going to have to convince US, Antonio.\n\nOr maybe we could agree that GW the translator screwed up, but Wolfe can \ncommit no error." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2011 4:58 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 2011/04/17, ?s 21:28, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Tony is right that Drotte and Roche mean nothing to the reader at \nthis point, perhaps especially because the chapter might have been \ninsufficiently rewritten to make it serve as chapter 1." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I vehemently disagree. I think this kind of analysis is just what \nWolfe as a writer has been working against since \nforever._______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<68c165df524cf5fecc499dd02ffc577f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-04-17T22:21:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We do know that various office functions are still being expected of Sev\nas he writes. Time passes, Dr Talos comes and goes. Sev could as easily\ngone a final weekend trip, moved his bowels, and approved a dozen\nexecutions between writing \"Roche\" and \"Drotte\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He takes a break on page *two* of his memoirs? In the middle of\nwriting an exciting bit? I don't find that very persuasive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude, he's the pope-king of the world and there's war on. Anything could\ncome up at any time. Not that we know for sure this is his first draft, it\ncould easily be one page among thousands writ and thousands yet to come." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover,\nthe reason we know about these little interruptions is because\nSeverian tells us when they happen. If Wolfe wanted us to think that\nSeverian had made a memory slip across such an interruption, he could\nhave written it that way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Towards the end, he mentions that he has spent days before his departure\nwriting his autobiography. He does not mention making water during this\ntime. Are we to assume that class of unrecorded interruption also does not\nhappen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I proofread for a living, and you wouldn't believe the things I see,\nor the things that both I and the editor miss." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a fact-checker, peer-reviewer, and a computer programmer, so I might\ngive you a bit more credulity than that. It remains that that less one\nsays explicitly, the more one may mean implicitly.\n\nRegards,\nJeff" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAB7784.2010309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-17T23:28:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAB583F.3020400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nWolfe as a writer has been working against the kind of analysis that\nallows for authorial error in the case of obvious discrepancies that\nhave no possible meaning consistent with the rest of the work? That,\ni.e., authors are infallible?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wasn't even commenting on that, rather on your 'the chapter might have \nbeen insufficiently rewritten' bit. Wolfe has been working against the \nkind of analysis that wants art to be shaped according to certain \nparametres. The chapter is what it is; barring some strong evidence to \nthe contrary, it is just how the author intended it to be.\n\nI'm talking about critics who go on about how a particular work should \nhave more of this or less of that based on what they think would be more \ndidactical to the target audience. Do they think when the author reads \ntheir critic, he'll slap his forrid like 'Damn, if only I'd though of \nthat!'? Certainly it's a rare work of art that its author will think is \nperfect; but if there should have been anything different - and most of \nthe time there isn't any identifiable thing - it's seldom if ever what \nsuch critiques suggest.\n\nCertainly I think the Book of the Long Sun has 135% the length it should \nhave, but I wouldn't know how to correct that. 'Editing' isn't an \nanswer, unless it means returning the manuscript with the single \nrecommendation of 'shorten it' until the author could find out how to do \nit himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or was Drotte momentarily Roche, or Roche Drotte?\n\nIs Severian to be seen, on the basis of one passage, as a clumsy\nbumbling oaf who can't remember anything? Does it mean that he really\ndoesn't have a good memory at all but that he pretends and makes things\nup and isn't even very good at it, except that 100% of the rest of the\ntime he's extremely good at it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he isn't. His memory is convincingly good in what regards \nrecollecting even minor events, but can be faulty when it comes to the \ndetails of those events (usually the unimportant ones, but who knows)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey, maybe he made up the whole\nacid-trip to Yesod.\n\nIt's not OUR theory that would make analysis of BOTNS impossible---it's\nyours. It's certainly possible that we could discover \"errors\" that are\nexplained by Thecla's or some other's presence in his brain, but this is\nnot one of them. YOU are going to have to convince US, Antonio." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am going to have to convince YOU in order for ME to remain convinced \nof what I am convinced?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or maybe we could agree that GW the translator screwed up, but Wolfe can\ncommit no error." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem hung up on the idea that the opposition to the idea that this \nis a mistake entails the belief that GW the real person doesn't make \nmistakes. I'm yet to see where you got that idea from." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAB780A.2030501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-17T23:30:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<68c165df524cf5fecc499dd02ffc577f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an objection in search of an argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2011 6:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nTowards the end, he mentions that he has spent days before his departure\nwriting his autobiography. He does not mention making water during this\ntime. Are we to assume that class of unrecorded interruption also does not\nhappen?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAB8EDB.9000708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-04-18T01:07:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAB780A.2030501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2011 6:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Towards the end, he mentions that he has spent days before his departure\nwriting his autobiography. He does not mention making water during this\ntime. Are we to assume that class of unrecorded interruption also does\nnot\nhappen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2011 6:30 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThat's an objection in search of an argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may very well have been, but I've slept since I wrote it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAB9042.2040801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-18T01:13:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAB7784.2010309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/17/2011 7:28 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe as a writer has been working against the kind of analysis that\nallows for authorial error in the case of obvious discrepancies that\nhave no possible meaning consistent with the rest of the work? That,\ni.e., authors are infallible?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wasn't even commenting on that, rather on your 'the chapter might \nhave been insufficiently rewritten' bit. Wolfe has been working \nagainst the kind of analysis that wants art to be shaped according to \ncertain parametres. The chapter is what it is; barring some strong \nevidence to the contrary, it is just how the author intended it to be.\n\nI'm talking about critics who go on about how a particular work should \nhave more of this or less of that based on what they think would be \nmore didactical to the target audience. Do they think when the author \nreads their critic, he'll slap his forrid like 'Damn, if only I'd \nthough of that!'? Certainly it's a rare work of art that its author \nwill think is perfect; but if there should have been anything \ndifferent - and most of the time there isn't any identifiable thing - \nit's seldom if ever what such critiques suggest.\n\nCertainly I think the Book of the Long Sun has 135% the length it \nshould have, but I wouldn't know how to correct that. 'Editing' isn't \nan answer, unless it means returning the manuscript with the single \nrecommendation of 'shorten it' until the author could find out how to \ndo it himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do you know \"Wolfe has been working against the kind of analysis \nthat wants art to be shaped according to certain parametres\"? Seriously.\n\nCertainly he struggles against assumptions of what SF is. But these \ntopics have little to do with one another. If characters are introduced \nand described in chapter 1 and chapter 2 does not repeat these \ndescriptions, and subsequently chapter 2 becomes chapter 1 (by the \npublisher's decision), then the author faces a very practical problem of \nreworking the text so that readers aren't confused in a way that is not \n\"intended\" by the author. (\"INTENDED.\")\n\nYour assumption that the chapter is always \"just how the author intended \nit to be\" regardless of actual historical fact is what I was satirizing \nas an assumption that the author is infallible even when in error. The \nfirst assumption leads to the other.\n\nIn fact it's possible the error was introduced in just such a reworking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or was Drotte momentarily Roche, or Roche Drotte?\n\nIs Severian to be seen, on the basis of one passage, as a clumsy\nbumbling oaf who can't remember anything? Does it mean that he really\ndoesn't have a good memory at all but that he pretends and makes things\nup and isn't even very good at it, except that 100% of the rest of the\ntime he's extremely good at it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, he isn't. His memory is convincingly good in what regards \nrecollecting even minor events, but can be faulty when it comes to the \ndetails of those events (usually the unimportant ones, but who knows)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think if Severian can't keep his sole boyhood companions apart then \nhe's a bit more far gone than you allow. Their identity is not an \n\"unimportant detail.\"\n\nBut can you give an example of such an error? Such an example might help \nyour case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hey, maybe he made up the whole\nacid-trip to Yesod.\n\nIt's not OUR theory that would make analysis of BOTNS impossible---it's\nyours. It's certainly possible that we could discover \"errors\" that are\nexplained by Thecla's or some other's presence in his brain, but this is\nnot one of them. YOU are going to have to convince US, Antonio." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am going to have to convince YOU in order for ME to remain convinced \nof what I am convinced?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that's just weird. First, I am suggesting that you proffer your own \ntheory explaining the discrepancy, since you are \"unconvinced\" by the \none presented. Second, I am pointing out that the bad result you say \nfollows from Tony's assumptions actually follows from your own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or maybe we could agree that GW the translator screwed up, but Wolfe can\ncommit no error." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem hung up on the idea that the opposition to the idea that this \nis a mistake entails the belief that GW the real person doesn't make \nmistakes. I'm yet to see where you got that idea from." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From you, Antonio. Although you are exaggerating it for effect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2011-04-18T21:10:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAB9042.2040801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nTowards the end, he mentions that he has spent days before his departure\nwriting his autobiography. He does not mention making water during this\ntime. Are we to assume that class of unrecorded interruption also does not\nhappen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's an objection in search of an argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It certainly doesn't address the argument I was making." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Marques wrote:\nThat's all well, Troy, but aside from the chapter having not been the\noriginal first, it's nothing you hadn't said before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that's true, Antronio, but it's not worth arguing over." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm afraid that if we have to admit authorial mistakes without\ndefinite evidence as an explanation for this kind of stuff, we may as\nwell not discuss half of Gene Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't make life any easier for ourselves if we admit undetectable\ntoilet-breaks during which Severian fabricates memories.\n\n\nIt occurs to me that a fun way to resolve this would be for us all to\nwrite in to Wolfe's publishers, disingenuously complaining about the\n'error' we found on page 2, then see what happens in the next reprint.\n:-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DACAA4D.6050003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-18T21:17:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I get home, I intend to see if the Marble/Mint mix-up in the \"The \nBook of Long Sun\" was replicated in the \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\" \nre-release. Wolfe seemed quite annoyed by mistakes like that when he was \nasked. If it is there, I will accept it as possible that an editorial \nmistake like that could be considered Set In Stone and reproduced in all \nsubsequent volumes.\n\nIf it was fixed in subsequent volumes, then I will have ask why the \nDrotte/Roche error was never fixed in all the re-releases in that last \n31 years.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DACBCAE.4010509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-18T22:35:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACAA4D.6050003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which Marble/Mint mixup is that? I'm pretty sure I fell for it myself, \nbut I don't recall where it is.\n\nIt's certainly an understandable error." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2011 5:17 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWhen I get home, I intend to see if the Marble/Mint mix-up in the \"The \nBook of Long Sun\" was replicated in the \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\" \nre-release. Wolfe seemed quite annoyed by mistakes like that when he \nwas asked. If it is there, I will accept it as possible that an \neditorial mistake like that could be considered Set In Stone and \nreproduced in all subsequent volumes.\n\nIf it was fixed in subsequent volumes, then I will have ask why the \nDrotte/Roche error was never fixed in all the re-releases in that last \n31 years.\n\nJ\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DACBDCD.1060109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-18T22:40:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACBCAE.4010509@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is in Exodus of the Long Sun. There is a passage where \"Mint\" \nis mistakenly says \"Marble\" and another in a different place where \n\"Marble\" is mistakenly says \"Mint\". It was moderately confusing since it \nwas as though the two had momentarily switched places in the story.\nJ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2011 5:35 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhich Marble/Mint mixup is that? I'm pretty sure I fell for it myself, \nbut I don't recall where it is.\n\nIt's certainly an understandable error.\n\nOn 4/18/2011 5:17 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When I get home, I intend to see if the Marble/Mint mix-up in the \n\"The Book of Long Sun\" was replicated in the \"Epiphany of the Long \nSun\" re-release. Wolfe seemed quite annoyed by mistakes like that \nwhen he was asked. If it is there, I will accept it as possible that \nan editorial mistake like that could be considered Set In Stone and \nreproduced in all subsequent volumes.\n\nIf it was fixed in subsequent volumes, then I will have ask why the \nDrotte/Roche error was never fixed in all the re-releases in that \nlast 31 years.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DACBFDC.3090701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-18T22:49:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACBDCD.1060109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I remember that---thanks.\n\nI always had trouble with them anyway. If I recall, Mint is a bio, \nMarble is a chem with fleshy prostheses, and Rose was an old bio with \nmetal prostheses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2011 6:40 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI think it is in Exodus of the Long Sun. There is a passage where \n\"Mint\" is mistakenly says \"Marble\" and another in a different place \nwhere \"Marble\" is mistakenly says \"Mint\". It was moderately confusing \nsince it was as though the two had momentarily switched places in the \nstory.\nJ\n\nOn 4/18/2011 5:35 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which Marble/Mint mixup is that? I'm pretty sure I fell for it \nmyself, but I don't recall where it is.\n\nIt's certainly an understandable error.\n\nOn 4/18/2011 5:17 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When I get home, I intend to see if the Marble/Mint mix-up in the \n\"The Book of Long Sun\" was replicated in the \"Epiphany of the Long \nSun\" re-release. Wolfe seemed quite annoyed by mistakes like that \nwhen he was asked. If it is there, I will accept it as possible that \nan editorial mistake like that could be considered Set In Stone and \nreproduced in all subsequent volumes.\n\nIf it was fixed in subsequent volumes, then I will have ask why the \nDrotte/Roche error was never fixed in all the re-releases in that \nlast 31 years.\n\nJ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DACBFE6.2050903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-18T22:49:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACAA4D.6050003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (18-04-2011 22:17):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When I get home, I intend to see if the Marble/Mint mix-up in the \"The Book\nof Long Sun\" was replicated in the \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\" re-release.\nWolfe seemed quite annoyed by mistakes like that when he was asked. If it is\nthere, I will accept it as possible that an editorial mistake like that\ncould be considered Set In Stone and reproduced in all subsequent volumes.\n\nIf it was fixed in subsequent volumes, then I will have ask why the\nDrotte/Roche error was never fixed in all the re-releases in that last 31\nyears." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Marble/Mint mixup `*does* look like a mistake. Though at that point \nanything goes..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DACC161.2040709@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-18T22:55:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACBFDC.3090701@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correction:\nMarble is a chem. Although she used to have facades that looked \ngenerally realistic or possibly very realistic, they have long-ago worn \naway.\n\nRose is an old bio with many prostheses. In addition she has prosthetic \nhands that have been made to look realistically old and veiny.\n\nWhen Rose dies, the hands fit just fine on Marble's arms. Rose's \nmemories and identity have been downloaded effortlessly into the hands. \nI think all of that is significant, but there are detractors.\n\nJ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2011 5:49 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI think I remember that---thanks.\n\nI always had trouble with them anyway. If I recall, Mint is a bio, \nMarble is a chem with fleshy prostheses, and Rose was an old bio with \nmetal prostheses. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DACC2A1.5090903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-18T23:00:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACC161.2040709@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahhh ... that makes sense. I did not know Rose was actually in Marble's \nhands, or that her hands were not flesh. That explains my confusion.\n\nWolfe has a thing for that, doesn't he---Sidero, for example?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2011 6:55 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nCorrection:\nMarble is a chem. Although she used to have facades that looked \ngenerally realistic or possibly very realistic, they have long-ago \nworn away.\n\nRose is an old bio with many prostheses. In addition she has \nprosthetic hands that have been made to look realistically old and veiny.\n\nWhen Rose dies, the hands fit just fine on Marble's arms. Rose's \nmemories and identity have been downloaded effortlessly into the \nhands. I think all of that is significant, but there are detractors.\n\nJ\n\nOn 4/18/2011 5:49 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think I remember that---thanks.\n\nI always had trouble with them anyway. If I recall, Mint is a bio, \nMarble is a chem with fleshy prostheses, and Rose was an old bio with \nmetal prostheses. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DACF548.6080203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-04-19T02:36:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACC2A1.5090903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2011 6:00 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAhhh ... that makes sense. I did not know Rose was actually in Marble's\nhands, or that her hands were not flesh. That explains my confusion.\n\nWolfe has a thing for that, doesn't he---Sidero, for example?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Jonas, and Thecla, and Chelle, and Nicky De Vore...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1296.128.214.20.122.1303200064.squirrel@websecu.irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "soloviev at irit.fr", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-04-19T08:01:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACC2A1.5090903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear James and David,\n\nI am not so sure that this explanation is right. Please, remind, James,\nwhere it is said that Rose's prosthetic hands are not flesh?\nIn the \"Book of the New Sun\" Severian has a friend Jonas, who\nis a chem (at Urth at this time they are not called so), but\nJonas has one hand and some other parths taken from a bio -\nhe explains it himself to Severian. So the combination is\npossible.\n\nI don't remember where it was said, maybe it is your own\ndeduction that they (Rose's hands) are not flesh, only\n\"realistically veined\", because they could be \"grafted\"\nto Marble?\n\nBest regards\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ahhh ... that makes sense. I did not know Rose was actually in Marble's\nhands, or that her hands were not flesh. That explains my confusion.\n\nWolfe has a thing for that, doesn't he---Sidero, for example?\n\nOn 4/18/2011 6:55 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Correction:\nMarble is a chem. Although she used to have facades that looked\ngenerally realistic or possibly very realistic, they have long-ago\nworn away.\n\nRose is an old bio with many prostheses. In addition she has\nprosthetic hands that have been made to look realistically old and\nveiny.\n\nWhen Rose dies, the hands fit just fine on Marble's arms. Rose's\nmemories and identity have been downloaded effortlessly into the\nhands. I think all of that is significant, but there are detractors.\n\nJ\n\nOn 4/18/2011 5:49 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think I remember that---thanks.\n\nI always had trouble with them anyway. If I recall, Mint is a bio,\nMarble is a chem with fleshy prostheses, and Rose was an old bio with\nmetal prostheses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAD76C7.1030204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-19T11:49:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACF548.6080203@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I forgot to actually say what I was talking about. I meant the \nwrapping-a-body-in-a-body thing specifically. (If a body meet a body \nwrapped in a body coming through the rye...)\n\nRose's hands appear to be gloves of a kind, that seem to work on both \nbios and chems by covering the limb, not replacing it. That is, I doubt \nRose actually lost her limbs and needed new ones---she merely lost the \nuse of them due to extreme age.\n\nBut of course this kind of thing is just a subcategory of prostheses and \ncyborg-robotics in general among Wolfe's characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2011 10:36 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/18/2011 6:00 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ahhh ... that makes sense. I did not know Rose was actually in Marble's\nhands, or that her hands were not flesh. That explains my confusion.\n\nWolfe has a thing for that, doesn't he---Sidero, for example?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Jonas, and Thecla, and Chelle, and Nicky De Vore...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAD7881.2040709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-19T11:56:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<1296.128.214.20.122.1303200064.squirrel@websecu.irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to see James' evidence too. But Rose is a bio---that's certain. \nMy assumption was the same as yours, that her hands were (cyborg) flesh. \nBut Marble's easy use of them is a bit hard to understand. How is it \nkept alive when it is not attached to Rose's circulatory system?\n\nBios need new limbs for 2 reasons: (1) loss of the original, often due \nto accident (Jonas) or combat; (2) loss of use of the original. It is \nfar more likely that an ancient sibyl would lose the use of her hands \nthan that she would get them blown off. Of course I'm just realizing \nthis now.\n\nIt's a variation on the same theme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 4:01 AM, soloviev at irit.fr wrote:\nDear James and David,\n\nI am not so sure that this explanation is right. Please, remind, James,\nwhere it is said that Rose's prosthetic hands are not flesh?\nIn the \"Book of the New Sun\" Severian has a friend Jonas, who\nis a chem (at Urth at this time they are not called so), but\nJonas has one hand and some other parths taken from a bio -\nhe explains it himself to Severian. So the combination is\npossible.\n\nI don't remember where it was said, maybe it is your own\ndeduction that they (Rose's hands) are not flesh, only\n\"realistically veined\", because they could be \"grafted\"\nto Marble?\n\nBest regards\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ahhh ... that makes sense. I did not know Rose was actually in Marble's\nhands, or that her hands were not flesh. That explains my confusion.\n\nWolfe has a thing for that, doesn't he---Sidero, for example?\n\nOn 4/18/2011 6:55 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Correction:\nMarble is a chem. Although she used to have facades that looked\ngenerally realistic or possibly very realistic, they have long-ago\nworn away.\n\nRose is an old bio with many prostheses. In addition she has\nprosthetic hands that have been made to look realistically old and\nveiny.\n\nWhen Rose dies, the hands fit just fine on Marble's arms. Rose's\nmemories and identity have been downloaded effortlessly into the\nhands. I think all of that is significant, but there are detractors.\n\nJ\n\nOn 4/18/2011 5:49 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think I remember that---thanks.\n\nI always had trouble with them anyway. If I recall, Mint is a bio,\nMarble is a chem with fleshy prostheses, and Rose was an old bio with\nmetal prostheses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DADA09C.6080103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-19T14:47:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACAA4D.6050003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, in \"Exodus of the Long Sun\", in chapter 14, \"The Best Thieves in \nthe Whorl\", page 313 (HB version),\nSiyuf is having a discussion with Mint. Marble is not there.\n\nA paragraph starts:\nSiyuf looked back to Maytera Marble. \"You wish to tell me of the Charter \nof your city before this man have interrupt you. I find this of interest.\"\n\nIn \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\", this typo is repeated.\nThere is another typo in the book that does the same thing but I don't \nneed to look it up. It is surely there.\nConsequently, it is reasonable to assume that the Roche/Drotte mix-up c" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2011 4:17 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWhen I get home, I intend to see if the Marble/Mint mix-up in the \"The \nBook of Long Sun\" was replicated in the \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\" \nre-release. Wolfe seemed quite annoyed by mistakes like that when he \nwas asked. If it is there, I will accept it as possible that an \neditorial mistake like that could be considered Set In Stone and \nreproduced in all subsequent volumes.\n\nIf it was fixed in subsequent volumes, then I will have ask why the \nDrotte/Roche error was never fixed in all the re-releases in that last \n31 years.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DADB0CE.7020404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-19T15:57:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAD7881.2040709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 6:49 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nRose's hands appear to be gloves of a kind, that seem to work on both \nbios and chems by covering the limb, not replacing it. That is, I \ndoubt Rose actually lost her limbs and needed new ones---she merely \nlost the use of them due to extreme age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 6:56 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt is far more likely that an ancient sibyl would lose the use of her \nhands than that she would get them blown off. Of course I'm just \nrealizing this now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rose lost her hands due to amputation required from some slow \nflesh-destroying disease. Leprosy, to take a guess. When she visited \nBlood at his foster home when he was a child, she only had one of them.\n\n\" 'I remember when she lost her arm,' Blood told her. 'She used to pat \nme on the head and say, you know, my, he's getting big. One day it was a \nhand like yours--'\n'It was this one.' Maytera Marble displayed it.\" ~ Chapter 10, Calde of \nthe Long Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 4:01 AM, soloviev at irit.fr wrote:\n I don't remember where it was said, maybe it is your own\ndeduction that they (Rose's hands) are not flesh, only\n\"realistically veined\", because they could be \"grafted\"\nto Marble? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who would graft them on to Marble? She did it herself. There is no \nreason to believe Marble had the medical knowledge to graft bio hands to \nher body.\n\n\" 'Is that really the same hand?' Blood eyed it curiously.\n'Yes, it is. It's hard to change hands yourself, Bloody, because you \nhave to do it one-handed. It was particularly hard for me, because by \nthen I already had a great many new parts. Or rather, I had RECLAIMED a \ngreat many old ones.' ~ Ibid (emphasis added. See the link below for why).\n\nWhat I believe about chems and Marble/Rose is this:\n\n1) Rose's prostheses are old chem parts.\n\n2) The hands originally were used by old Maytera Betel, and that is why \nthey were mocked to look old old ~ because there was a certain shame in \nwhere they came from.\n(Whatever one believes about those hands, a speculative theory is \nrequired to explain why a prosthesis made for a forty-something sibyl \n--when Rose lost her first arm--would have been mocked to look old. No \nwoman is going to prefer such a thing.)\n\nSee here for my full explanation of Rose's hands\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/molybdenum.htm\nAnd, yes, Roy does has a visceral aversion to my explanation, but I'm \nnot willing to accept that the trouble passages he himself acknowledges \nare a result of Marble lying or being confused. Nor do I find it \ncredible that the hands were mocked to look old in order to keep Rose \nhumble).\n\n3) I believe chems/robots were designed to be ensouled by \nmind-wiped/manipulated scans of humans. And that is why a) Rose's hands \nso happily absorbed her identity and memories, b) why the chems were so \neasily configured to receive the Ayuntamiento's consciousness, and c) \nwhy Marble remembers Urth's Short Sun but appears to have no actual \nmemories of her service on Urth. This is also why female chems use \nperfume even though there is no reason to program such aesthetic desires \ninto them.\nAnd, finally, that is why chems are persons. As Rose-in-Marble said, \"I \nam still a person, because I always was.\"\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DADB1C0.9030702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-19T16:01:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DADA09C.6080103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Looks like I cut my own response. To continue:\n\n\"Consequently, it is reasonable to assume that the Roche/Drotte mix-up \ncould be a typo and that copyrights and Library of Congress submissions \nbeing what they are, it is too much trouble to fix it in subsequent \neditions.\n\nOr perhaps it is a philosophical issue with Wolfe: \"After publication, \nthe tree lies where it falls.\"\n\nJ" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 9:47 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, in \"Exodus of the Long Sun\", in chapter 14, \"The Best Thieves in \nthe Whorl\", page 313 (HB version),\nSiyuf is having a discussion with Mint. Marble is not there.\n\nA paragraph starts:\nSiyuf looked back to Maytera Marble. \"You wish to tell me of the \nCharter of your city before this man have interrupt you. I find this \nof interest.\"\n\nIn \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\", this typo is repeated.\nThere is another typo in the book that does the same thing but I don't \nneed to look it up. It is surely there.\nConsequently, it is reasonable to assume that the Roche/Drotte mix-up c " } ] }, { "message_id": "<418293.32176.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-19T16:21:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DADB0CE.7020404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great explanation, James. I also appreciate the discussion of the nature of chems---it explains half a dozen minor mysteries, not just one. And raises new ones for me:\n\nWere Mamelta and Marble bio and chem versions of the same thing? empty vessels filled with stored souls with only the vaguest memories of Urth? Or did Typhon take existing brainwiped bios and put some in the Whorl and others into storage? What was (who were?) the source of chem personalities? can personalities be reproduced like an mp3 file, or is it only 1 per body?\n\nAnd you must be right about leprosy. It's about the only thing I can think of that would cause a sibyl to lose a hand and certainly the only disease. Maybe syphilis, but that's unlikely for a sibyl---or is it? \n\nEither one would tend to shorten a life span, when we know Rose was old (or was that merely my impression based on her hands?), and then there is the question of how either would ultimately be cured in a world where either would be a problem in the first place. I guess preemptive amputation might stop leprosy. Maybe sometimes it just stops.\n\nMore new mysteries: did Betel and Rose therefore have the same disease? or was Betel a chem? If she was a chem, why was she made old?\n\nif not, what chem did the hands come from? Were all female chems made to look human? Were some made to look old? Were the first sibyls chem crones? How does one get to be a sibyl anyway--can you have a shameful past life?\n\nI think Rose would have been quite happy to accept crone arms, and as a sibyl she is supposed to be uninterested in the vanities of flesh anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 4/19/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Drotte-Roche mixup\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, April 19, 2011, 11:57 AM\nOn 4/19/2011 6:49 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rose's hands appear to be gloves of a kind, that seem\nto work on both bios and chems by covering the limb, not\nreplacing it. That is, I doubt Rose actually lost her limbs\nand needed new ones---she merely lost the use of them due to\nextreme age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 6:56 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is far more likely that an ancient sibyl would lose\nthe use of her hands than that she would get them blown off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course I'm just realizing this now.\n\nRose lost her hands due to amputation required from some\nslow flesh-destroying disease. Leprosy, to take a guess.\nWhen she visited Blood at his foster home when he was a\nchild, she only had one of them.\n\n\" 'I remember when she lost her arm,' Blood told her. 'She\nused to pat me on the head and say, you know, my, he's\ngetting big. One day it was a hand like yours--'\n'It was this one.' Maytera Marble displayed it.\" ~ Chapter\n10, Calde of the Long Sun\n\n\nOn 4/19/2011 4:01 AM, soloviev at irit.fr\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? I don't remember where it was said, maybe it is\nyour own\ndeduction that they (Rose's hands) are not flesh,\nonly\n\"realistically veined\", because they could be\n\"grafted\"\nto Marble? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who would graft them on to Marble? She did it herself.\nThere is no reason to believe Marble had the medical\nknowledge to graft bio hands to her body.\n\n\" 'Is that really the same hand?' Blood eyed it curiously.\n'Yes, it is. It's hard to change hands yourself, Bloody,\nbecause you have to do it one-handed. It was particularly\nhard for me, because by then I already had a great many new\nparts. Or rather, I had RECLAIMED a great many old\nones.' ~ Ibid (emphasis added. See the link below for why).\n\nWhat I believe about chems and Marble/Rose is this:\n\n1) Rose's prostheses are old chem parts.\n\n2) The hands originally were used by old Maytera Betel, and\nthat is why they were mocked to look old old ~ because there\nwas a certain shame in where they came from.\n(Whatever one believes about those hands, a speculative\ntheory is required to explain why a prosthesis made for a\nforty-something sibyl --when Rose lost her first arm--would\nhave been mocked to look old. No woman is going to prefer\nsuch a thing.)\n\nSee here for my full explanation of Rose's hands\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/molybdenum.htm\nAnd, yes, Roy does has a visceral aversion to my\nexplanation, but I'm not willing to accept that the trouble\npassages he himself acknowledges are a result of Marble\nlying or being confused. Nor do I find it credible that the\nhands were mocked to look old in order to keep Rose\nhumble).\n\n3) I believe chems/robots were designed to be ensouled by\nmind-wiped/manipulated scans of humans. And that is why a)\nRose's hands so happily absorbed her identity and memories,\nb) why the chems were so easily configured to receive the\nAyuntamiento's consciousness, and c) why Marble remembers\nUrth's Short Sun but appears to have no actual memories of\nher service on Urth. This is also why female chems use\nperfume even though there is no reason to program such\naesthetic desires into them.\nAnd, finally, that is why chems are persons. As\nRose-in-Marble said, \"I am still a person, because I always\nwas.\"\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<128871.1485.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-19T16:34:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DADB1C0.9030702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've never really understood this problem. When you do a new edition, you change what feel you need to change, and that ought to include obvious errors. The copyright owner and publisher decide together, of course. \n\nIt's not the technology. You make the changes, repaginate according to the format (size and length) of the new edition, slap a new cover on it, and print. This has been done at least semi-electronically for decades with increasing ease and still the typos remain, so it can't be blamed entirely on the fact that each new typesetting introduced new errors. It might depend on the file format of the \"master\" files, though, and who knows what that means for the Sun books.\n\nCertainly a living author has to agree to these corrections (and it's difficult to convince a dead author), but this is something you see so often I can't believe Wolfe is very special in this regard. Maybe it's the agents who are to blame, or the lawyers. The Library of Congress doesn't care as long as you submit your paperwork (which is now done online)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 4/19/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Drotte-Roche mixup\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, April 19, 2011, 12:01 PM\nLooks like I cut my own response. To\ncontinue:\n\n\"Consequently, it is reasonable to assume that the\nRoche/Drotte mix-up could be a typo and that copyrights and\nLibrary of Congress submissions being what they are, it is\ntoo much trouble to fix it in subsequent editions.\n\nOr perhaps it is a philosophical issue with Wolfe: \"After\npublication, the tree lies where it falls.\"\n\nJ\n\nOn 4/19/2011 9:47 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, in \"Exodus of the Long Sun\", in chapter 14, \"The\nBest Thieves in the Whorl\", page 313 (HB version),\nSiyuf is having a discussion with Mint. Marble is not\nthere.\n\nA paragraph starts:\nSiyuf looked back to Maytera Marble. \"You wish to tell\nme of the Charter of your city before this man have\ninterrupt you. I find this of interest.\"\n\nIn \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\", this typo is repeated.\nThere is another typo in the book that does the same\nthing but I don't need to look it up. It is surely there.\nConsequently, it is reasonable to assume that the\nRoche/Drotte mix-up c " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DADBA7D.6030207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-19T16:38:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<128871.1485.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand the reason for perpetuating the error. But in the \nList Q&A Wolfe confirmed that the Marble/Mint mix-ups were typos and \nthat he was very annoyed about them. He also mentioned that such errors \ninevitably get through." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 11:34 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nI've never really understood this problem. When you do a new edition, you change what feel you need to change, and that ought to include obvious errors. The copyright owner and publisher decide together, of course.\n\nIt's not the technology. You make the changes, repaginate according to the format (size and length) of the new edition, slap a new cover on it, and print. This has been done at least semi-electronically for decades with increasing ease and still the typos remain, so it can't be blamed entirely on the fact that each new typesetting introduced new errors. It might depend on the file format of the \"master\" files, though, and who knows what that means for the Sun books.\n\nCertainly a living author has to agree to these corrections (and it's difficult to convince a dead author), but this is something you see so often I can't believe Wolfe is very special in this regard. Maybe it's the agents who are to blame, or the lawyers. The Library of Congress doesn't care as long as you submit your paperwork (which is now done online).\n\n--- On Tue, 4/19/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: Re: (urth) Drotte-Roche mixup\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Tuesday, April 19, 2011, 12:01 PM\nLooks like I cut my own response. To\ncontinue:\n\n\"Consequently, it is reasonable to assume that the\nRoche/Drotte mix-up could be a typo and that copyrights and\nLibrary of Congress submissions being what they are, it is\ntoo much trouble to fix it in subsequent editions.\n\nOr perhaps it is a philosophical issue with Wolfe: \"After\npublication, the tree lies where it falls.\"\n\nJ\n\nOn 4/19/2011 9:47 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, in \"Exodus of the Long Sun\", in chapter 14, \"The\nBest Thieves in the Whorl\", page 313 (HB version),\nSiyuf is having a discussion with Mint. Marble is not\nthere.\nA paragraph starts:\nSiyuf looked back to Maytera Marble. \"You wish to tell\nme of the Charter of your city before this man have\ninterrupt you. I find this of interest.\"\nIn \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\", this typo is repeated.\nThere is another typo in the book that does the same\nthing but I don't need to look it up. It is surely there.\nConsequently, it is reasonable to assume that the\nRoche/Drotte mix-up c" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DADBCC5.1070807@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-19T16:48:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<418293.32176.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm glad it helped, David.\n\nMy answers to a lot of your questions are implied by my explanation at \nthe link I gave.\n\nI'll take a shot a few of them anyway.\n\n1) I believe we are tipped about origins of some of the chem's souls. I \nthink Sand for example is Typhon himself. I think that is the source of \nSilk's speculation in Blood's house about he and Sand being \"brothers\" \nin some broader Outsider's world. I think Silk and Sand being --in a \nway-- Typhon is why they were key to resurrecting him. If you buy that \nMamelta was the original Kypris then she is a good candidate for Marble \n(if you accept this, then there are references that will buttress that \nMamelta/Kypris was the mother of the original Silk).\n\nIf one accepts that Auk is also a clone, then there are references to \nargue that Auk/Hammerstone are sort-of twins in a similar way that Silk \nand Sand are twins.\n\n2) It is theoretically possible for Mamelta be possessed by the Marble's \nscan. The possibility is suggested by the ability of Whorl gods to \npossess bios. It is simpler to just say that Kypris is a scan of Mamelta.\n\n3) There is no reason that a single scan could not be used for multiple \nchems. That would be more efficient.\n\n4) I do not believe Betel was a chem. For my answer to that and as for \nwhere the hands came from, see the link." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 11:21 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nGreat explanation, James. I also appreciate the discussion of the nature of chems---it explains half a dozen minor mysteries, not just one. And raises new ones for me:\n\nWere Mamelta and Marble bio and chem versions of the same thing? empty vessels filled with stored souls with only the vaguest memories of Urth? Or did Typhon take existing brainwiped bios and put some in the Whorl and others into storage? What was (who were?) the source of chem personalities? can personalities be reproduced like an mp3 file, or is it only 1 per body?\n\nAnd you must be right about leprosy. It's about the only thing I can think of that would cause a sibyl to lose a hand and certainly the only disease. Maybe syphilis, but that's unlikely for a sibyl---or is it?\n\nEither one would tend to shorten a life span, when we know Rose was old (or was that merely my impression based on her hands?), and then there is the question of how either would ultimately be cured in a world where either would be a problem in the first place. I guess preemptive amputation might stop leprosy. Maybe sometimes it just stops.\n\nMore new mysteries: did Betel and Rose therefore have the same disease? or was Betel a chem? If she was a chem, why was she made old?\n\nif not, what chem did the hands come from? Were all female chems made to look human? Were some made to look old? Were the first sibyls chem crones? How does one get to be a sibyl anyway--can you have a shameful past life?\n\nI think Rose would have been quite happy to accept crone arms, and as a sibyl she is supposed to be uninterested in the vanities of flesh anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DADBFFB.8030309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-19T17:01:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DADBCC5.1070807@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 11:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nSee the link." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Looking at that link again. I should say that I no longer believe \nMolybdenum's unused parts ever went anywhere except the attic in the \ncenoby. They had to be there for Rose to continuously claim them as she \nrequired replacement prostheses. Until there was barely any human parts \nleft of her.\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<520145.32322.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-19T19:57:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DADBFFB.8030309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Moly was Hammerstone's girlfriend ... ?\n\nI will read your link. Thanks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 4/19/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Drotte-Roche mixup\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, April 19, 2011, 1:01 PM\nOn 4/19/2011 11:48 AM, James Wynn\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "See the link." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Looking at that link again. I should say that I no longer\nbelieve Molybdenum's unused parts ever went anywhere except\nthe attic in the cenoby. They had to be there for Rose to\ncontinuously claim them as she required replacement\nprostheses. Until there was barely any human parts left of\nher.\nJ\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAE12B7.4030009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-19T22:54:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DADBCC5.1070807@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Diabetes is perhaps a more likely disease than leprosy (and Betel was \nfat), but it tends to strike the lower limbs before the hands. I suppose \nif Rose had access to legs, no one would have known she had a problem at \nall ... you'd think the hands would have been replaced much later, but \nshe was 40 when she lost one arm.\n\nI suspect that Betel was diabetic but Rose had another condition." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 12:48 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI'm glad it helped, David.\n\nMy answers to a lot of your questions are implied by my explanation at \nthe link I gave.\n\nI'll take a shot a few of them anyway.\n\n1) I believe we are tipped about origins of some of the chem's souls. \nI think Sand for example is Typhon himself. I think that is the source \nof Silk's speculation in Blood's house about he and Sand being \n\"brothers\" in some broader Outsider's world. I think Silk and Sand \nbeing --in a way-- Typhon is why they were key to resurrecting him. If \nyou buy that Mamelta was the original Kypris then she is a good \ncandidate for Marble (if you accept this, then there are references \nthat will buttress that Mamelta/Kypris was the mother of the original \nSilk).\n\nIf one accepts that Auk is also a clone, then there are references to \nargue that Auk/Hammerstone are sort-of twins in a similar way that \nSilk and Sand are twins.\n\n2) It is theoretically possible for Mamelta be possessed by the \nMarble's scan. The possibility is suggested by the ability of Whorl \ngods to possess bios. It is simpler to just say that Kypris is a scan \nof Mamelta.\n\n3) There is no reason that a single scan could not be used for \nmultiple chems. That would be more efficient.\n\n4) I do not believe Betel was a chem. For my answer to that and as for \nwhere the hands came from, see the link.\n\nOn 4/19/2011 11:21 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Great explanation, James. I also appreciate the discussion of the \nnature of chems---it explains half a dozen minor mysteries, not just \none. And raises new ones for me:\n\nWere Mamelta and Marble bio and chem versions of the same thing? \nempty vessels filled with stored souls with only the vaguest memories \nof Urth? Or did Typhon take existing brainwiped bios and put some in \nthe Whorl and others into storage? What was (who were?) the source of \nchem personalities? can personalities be reproduced like an mp3 file, \nor is it only 1 per body?\n\nAnd you must be right about leprosy. It's about the only thing I can \nthink of that would cause a sibyl to lose a hand and certainly the \nonly disease. Maybe syphilis, but that's unlikely for a sibyl---or is \nit?\n\nEither one would tend to shorten a life span, when we know Rose was \nold (or was that merely my impression based on her hands?), and then \nthere is the question of how either would ultimately be cured in a \nworld where either would be a problem in the first place. I guess \npreemptive amputation might stop leprosy. Maybe sometimes it just stops.\n\nMore new mysteries: did Betel and Rose therefore have the same \ndisease? or was Betel a chem? If she was a chem, why was she made old?\n\nif not, what chem did the hands come from? Were all female chems made \nto look human? Were some made to look old? Were the first sibyls chem \ncrones? How does one get to be a sibyl anyway--can you have a \nshameful past life?\n\nI think Rose would have been quite happy to accept crone arms, and as \na sibyl she is supposed to be uninterested in the vanities of flesh \nanyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-20T14:38:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAE12B7.4030009@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: \"Consequently, it is reasonable to assume that the Roche/Drotte mix-up \ncould be a typo.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI wouldn't go so far as to say it couldn't be a typo. But one reason I lean toward Antonio's\nview and why Drotte-Roche might need a somewhat higher level of typo evaluation than the Maytera \nMarble example is the obvious- Severian is (self-) purported to have a perfect memory. I would \nexpect an author to find ways to support and/or undercut the \"perfect memory\" assertion in the \nfirst few chapters. So it could be purposeful. \n \nHorn makes no such claim and Wolfe has openly identified the \"Marble\" mistake as a typo. If Drotte-\nRoche was also a typo, why has he not made the same identification? It has received so much more\nattention.\n \nPerhaps a third possibility exists..that it was originally a typo but it was not corrected, being\nseen as a happy accident that served Wolfe's purposes nicely. (Does an observed but purposefully \nuncorrected typo cease to be a typo?) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAEFBB7.2070401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-20T15:28:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: \"Consequently, it is reasonable to assume that the Roche/Drotte mix-up\ncould be a typo.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman:\nI wouldn't go so far as to say it couldn't be a typo. But one reason I lean toward Antonio's\nview and why Drotte-Roche might need a somewhat higher level of typo evaluation than the Maytera\nMarble example is the obvious- Severian is (self-) purported to have a perfect memory. I would\nexpect an author to find ways to support and/or undercut the \"perfect memory\" assertion in the\nfirst few chapters. So it could be purposeful.\n\nHorn makes no such claim and Wolfe has openly identified the \"Marble\" mistake as a typo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Wolfe was specifically asked about the Mint/Marble typos. Has \nanyone done so regarding this one? I think it would be a good idea.\n\nIt is true that it occurs in the first 5 paragraphs when proof-readers \nwould be expected to still be paying close attention, but the \nMint/Marble errors do not even require anyone to be paying close attention.\n\nConclusion: It's either a typo and means nothing, or it is NOT a typo \nand re-focuses the whole book.\n\nReason:\n1) This \"error\" occurs immediately after Severian makes his first claim \nto a perfect memory --in highly lyrical form.\n\n2) Sev is told by the Heirogrammates that it is his perfect memory that \nmakes him a worthy \"epitome\" for mankind. If he does not have a perfect \nmemory, then either Heirogs are LYING (ala Peter Wright) or Wolfe is \nsaying something about what is happening when Severian tinkers with the \nTime streams and using Sevs perfect memory to clearly identify that that \nis happening." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps a third possibility exists..that it was originally a typo but it was not corrected, being\nseen as a happy accident that served Wolfe's purposes nicely. (Does an observed but purposefully\nuncorrected typo cease to be a typo?) \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But then we must know what that purpose was.\n\nStill, we must accept (based on the \"Long Sun\" examples) that Tor has an \nestablished pattern of simply not correcting overt typos in Wolfe's \nnovels even when they serve no narrative purpose. Even when they have \nproved to be confusing to the readers. Even when the errors greatly \nannoy the author. So without the author or publishers weighing in, it is \nimpossible to know for sure.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAEFEDB.3060106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-04-20T15:42:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAD76C7.1030204@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 6:49 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSorry, I forgot to actually say what I was talking about. I meant the\nwrapping-a-body-in-a-body thing specifically. (If a body meet a body\nwrapped in a body coming through the rye...)\n\nRose's hands appear to be gloves of a kind, that seem to work on both\nbios and chems by covering the limb, not replacing it. That is, I doubt\nRose actually lost her limbs and needed new ones---she merely lost the\nuse of them due to extreme age.\n\nBut of course this kind of thing is just a subcategory of prostheses and\ncyborg-robotics in general among Wolfe's characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it might be part of his theme about how a single action can \nserve many purposes, variously good and evil, ultimately doing the will \nof the Increate. Even Nicky, who wears his own hands in \"The Death of Dr \nIsland\", has a divided self. The non-speaking Nicky crassly gropes , but \nconsidering how the speaking Nicky can gratuitously simulate the rage \ndenied him by medication, it may really be an act of kindness to \ndiscourage the girl from being too close to his dangerous self." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAEFFF5.1000903@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-04-20T15:47:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<128871.1485.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 11:34 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nI've never really understood this problem. When you do a new edition, you change what feel you need to change, and that ought to include obvious errors. The copyright owner and publisher decide together, of course.\n\nIt's not the technology. You make the changes, repaginate according to the format (size and length) of the new edition, slap a new cover on it, and print. This has been done at least semi-electronically for decades with increasing ease and still the typos remain, so it can't be blamed entirely on the fact that each new typesetting introduced new errors. It might depend on the file format of the \"master\" files, though, and who knows what that means for the Sun books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While this sort of thing is possible, chatter in the spec-fic forums \nleads me to think it's often skipped or done with minimal amounts of \nunderinformed entry-level labor, as it can't be shown that any money \nspent on fiddling typo corrections will sell more books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Certainly a living author has to agree to these corrections (and it's difficult to convince a dead author), but this is something you see so often I can't believe Wolfe is very special in this regard. Maybe it's the agents who are to blame, or the lawyers. The Library of Congress doesn't care as long as you submit your paperwork (which is now done online)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure where the LC comes into it; since 1978, copyright vests \nupon creation in a tangible form, and few typos aren't going to affect \nwhat is a derivative work or not." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAF6486.5070502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-20T22:56:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably no one asked him. I'd assume each series has a couple of bloopers.\n\nIf the rate of \"errors\" is found to be the same throughout the books, \nthat is merely as would be predicted by the \"error\" hypothesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/20/2011 10:38 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: \"Consequently, it is reasonable to assume that the Roche/Drotte mix-up\ncould be a typo.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't go so far as to say it couldn't be a typo. But one reason I lean toward Antonio's\nview and why Drotte-Roche might need a somewhat higher level of typo evaluation than the Maytera\nMarble example is the obvious- Severian is (self-) purported to have a perfect memory. I would\nexpect an author to find ways to support and/or undercut the \"perfect memory\" assertion in the\nfirst few chapters. So it could be purposeful.\n\nHorn makes no such claim and Wolfe has openly identified the \"Marble\" mistake as a typo. If Drotte-\nRoche was also a typo, why has he not made the same identification? It has received so much more\nattention.\n\nPerhaps a third possibility exists..that it was originally a typo but it was not corrected, being\nseen as a happy accident that served Wolfe's purposes nicely. (Does an observed but purposefully\nuncorrected typo cease to be a typo?) \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAF654C.3090103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-20T22:59:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAEFEDB.3060106@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. So the basic idea is body-as-a-tool? That is, a tool can be \nused for good or evil, and therefore so can a person?\n\nIn addition, I'm sure, to the whole question of what-is-a-person and \nwhat-is-a-soul." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/20/2011 11:42 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/19/2011 6:49 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sorry, I forgot to actually say what I was talking about. I meant the\nwrapping-a-body-in-a-body thing specifically. (If a body meet a body\nwrapped in a body coming through the rye...)\n\nRose's hands appear to be gloves of a kind, that seem to work on both\nbios and chems by covering the limb, not replacing it. That is, I doubt\nRose actually lost her limbs and needed new ones---she merely lost the\nuse of them due to extreme age.\n\nBut of course this kind of thing is just a subcategory of prostheses and\ncyborg-robotics in general among Wolfe's characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it might be part of his theme about how a single action can \nserve many purposes, variously good and evil, ultimately doing the \nwill of the Increate. Even Nicky, who wears his own hands in \"The \nDeath of Dr Island\", has a divided self. The non-speaking Nicky \ncrassly gropes , but considering how the speaking Nicky can \ngratuitously simulate the rage denied him by medication, it may really \nbe an act of kindness to discourage the girl from being too close to \nhis dangerous self." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAF6633.4070403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-20T23:03:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAEFFF5.1000903@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, the LoC doesn't care if you fix typos. But you do need to buy a \nnew ISBN and apply for CIP info for any new edition. Which can get \nburdensome when you own thousands of titles ... but I think it's all \nbasically art vs commerce at this point. They'd fix Harry Potter if \nRowling asked for it. Wolfe is an award-winner, not a money-maker." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/20/2011 11:47 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 4/19/2011 11:34 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've never really understood this problem. When you do a new edition, \nyou change what feel you need to change, and that ought to include \nobvious errors. The copyright owner and publisher decide together, of \ncourse.\n\nIt's not the technology. You make the changes, repaginate according \nto the format (size and length) of the new edition, slap a new cover \non it, and print. This has been done at least semi-electronically for \ndecades with increasing ease and still the typos remain, so it can't \nbe blamed entirely on the fact that each new typesetting introduced \nnew errors. It might depend on the file format of the \"master\" files, \nthough, and who knows what that means for the Sun books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While this sort of thing is possible, chatter in the spec-fic forums \nleads me to think it's often skipped or done with minimal amounts of \nunderinformed entry-level labor, as it can't be shown that any money \nspent on fiddling typo corrections will sell more books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Certainly a living author has to agree to these corrections (and it's \ndifficult to convince a dead author), but this is something you see \nso often I can't believe Wolfe is very special in this regard. Maybe \nit's the agents who are to blame, or the lawyers. The Library of \nCongress doesn't care as long as you submit your paperwork (which is \nnow done online)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure where the LC comes into it; since 1978, copyright vests \nupon creation in a tangible form, and few typos aren't going to affect \nwhat is a derivative work or not." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAF674D.90403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-20T23:07:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4DAEFFF5.1000903@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Viron has a desert to the south, cities to the north, and a long lake \nnearby. Which may or may not be a salt lake, depending on whether Typhon \nwanted to send any Urth saltwater species along (it seems to be large \nfor the Whorl, although Wolfe doesn't say whether there are other lakes \nlike it). Is anyone else reminded of a certain place on Earth?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1c2732631f5d8217446b833c9780d359.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-04-21T01:14:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAF654C.3090103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting. So the basic idea is body-as-a-tool? That is, a tool can be\nused for good or evil, and therefore so can a person?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it would be more than demanding than that: Wolfe gives the reader\na peek behind the veil, a glimpse both of how separate things are\nconnected and of how connected things can be separate in purposes, which\ncomplicate the question of whether any given act accomplishes more of good\nor of evil. A human being can make and use a tool mostly reliably because\nhe gives it purpose and knows its makeup, but only the Increate can truly\nmake use of human beings the way we use tools because only the Increate\ncan know their true nature and purpose (according to Wolfe via Tzadkiel).\nIt follows that it would be hubris for humans to attempt the same without\nthat divine insight; the best they can do is to avoid what is plainly more\nharmful than beneficial, and remain open to progressively improving in\nthis fashion.\n\nIt may also be a more literal comment on integrity, duplicity, or\nequivocation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DB05B22.4000104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-21T16:28:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4DAF674D.90403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps if this were Orson Scott Card, I would think you were on to \nsomething.\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/20/2011 6:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nViron has a desert to the south, cities to the north, and a long lake \nnearby. Which may or may not be a salt lake, depending on whether \nTyphon wanted to send any Urth saltwater species along (it seems to be \nlarge for the Whorl, although Wolfe doesn't say whether there are \nother lakes like it). Is anyone else reminded of a certain place on \nEarth?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-21T16:42:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4DB05B22.4000104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Judea?\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 21, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nPerhaps if this were Orson Scott Card, I would think you were on to something.\nJ.\n\nOn 4/20/2011 6:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Viron has a desert to the south, cities to the north, and a long lake nearby. Which may or may not be a salt lake, depending on whether Typhon wanted to send any Urth saltwater species along (it seems to be large for the Whorl, although Wolfe doesn't say whether there are other lakes like it). Is anyone else reminded of a certain place on Earth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-21T19:19:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps if this were Orson Scott Card, I would think you were on to\nsomething." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "J." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haha!\nDOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 5:42 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nJudea?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Apr 21, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps if this were Orson Scott Card, I would think you were on to\nsomething.\nJ.\n\nOn 4/20/2011 6:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Viron has a desert to the south, cities to the north, and a long lake\nnearby. Which may or may not be a salt lake, depending on whether Typhon\nwanted to send any Urth saltwater species along (it seems to be large for\nthe Whorl, although Wolfe doesn't say whether there are other lakes like\nit). Is anyone else reminded of a certain place on Earth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DB0BAA8.3070806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-21T23:15:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very roughly, yes. Not that it would mean much anyway. But Silk seems to \nbe the closest thing to an overtly Christian character anywhere in \nWolfe. His world seems more than vaguely Mediterranean in climate and \nculture as well. If the Commonwealth is patterned in part after South \nAmerica, then surely the Whorl could have had another model that we can \nidentify.\n\nI could be wrong about the shape of the lake anyway. But I recall the \ntown is at one end of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/21/2011 12:42 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nJudea?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Apr 21, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps if this were Orson Scott Card, I would think you were on to something.\nJ.\n\nOn 4/20/2011 6:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Viron has a desert to the south, cities to the north, and a long lake nearby. Which may or may not be a salt lake, depending on whether Typhon wanted to send any Urth saltwater species along (it seems to be large for the Whorl, although Wolfe doesn't say whether there are other lakes like it). Is anyone else reminded of a certain place on Earth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DB1CCD3.4000905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-22T18:45:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4DB0BAA8.3070806@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty sure that Viron's culture is South American--presumably that \nof the Commonwealth. The \"ball game\" is based on the Nahuatl game. It's \nan analogous Catholic culture.\n\nStill, that doesn't mean that Viron couldn't be based on Jerusalem of \ncourse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/21/2011 6:15 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nVery roughly, yes. Not that it would mean much anyway. But Silk seems \nto be the closest thing to an overtly Christian character anywhere in \nWolfe. His world seems more than vaguely Mediterranean in climate and \nculture as well. If the Commonwealth is patterned in part after South \nAmerica, then surely the Whorl could have had another model that we \ncan identify.\n\nI could be wrong about the shape of the lake anyway. But I recall the \ntown is at one end of it.\n\nOn 4/21/2011 12:42 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Judea?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Apr 21, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps if this were Orson Scott Card, I would think you were on to \nsomething.\nJ.\n\nOn 4/20/2011 6:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Viron has a desert to the south, cities to the north, and a long \nlake nearby. Which may or may not be a salt lake, depending on \nwhether Typhon wanted to send any Urth saltwater species along (it \nseems to be large for the Whorl, although Wolfe doesn't say whether \nthere are other lakes like it). Is anyone else reminded of a \ncertain place on Earth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DB1D0A6.6020309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-22T19:01:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4DB1CCD3.4000905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/22/2011 2:45 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI'm pretty sure that Viron's culture is South American--presumably \nthat of the Commonwealth. The \"ball game\" is based on the Nahuatl \ngame. It's an analogous Catholic culture.\n\nStill, that doesn't mean that Viron couldn't be based on Jerusalem of \ncourse.\n\n\nOn 4/21/2011 6:15 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Very roughly, yes. Not that it would mean much anyway. But Silk seems \nto be the closest thing to an overtly Christian character anywhere in \nWolfe. His world seems more than vaguely Mediterranean in climate and \nculture as well. If the Commonwealth is patterned in part after South \nAmerica, then surely the Whorl could have had another model that we \ncan identify.\n\nI could be wrong about the shape of the lake anyway. But I recall the \ntown is at one end of it.\n\nOn 4/21/2011 12:42 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Judea?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Apr 21, 2011, at 11:28 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Perhaps if this were Orson Scott Card, I would think you were on to \nsomething.\nJ.\n\nOn 4/20/2011 6:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Viron has a desert to the south, cities to the north, and a long \nlake nearby. Which may or may not be a salt lake, depending on \nwhether Typhon wanted to send any Urth saltwater species along (it \nseems to be large for the Whorl, although Wolfe doesn't say \nwhether there are other lakes like it). Is anyone else reminded of \na certain place on Earth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9D68A36154A84D2EBE0C28AAA545B751@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-22T23:36:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4DB1CCD3.4000905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nI'm pretty sure that Viron's culture is South American--presumably that of \nthe Commonwealth. The \"ball game\" is based on the Nahuatl game. It's an \nanalogous Catholic culture.\n\nStill, that doesn't mean that Viron couldn't be based on Jerusalem of \ncourse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that it is plausibly South American, though I'm not terribly \nconvinced by the above points. The Commonwealth did not exist when the \nWhorl was launched, and the Whorl contains elements from numerous cultures \n(e.g. an Indian culture which provided the forebears of Gaon). The religion \nof the Whorl is allegedly a parody of the state religion of Typhon's time, \nwhich would have been worldwide - and anyway the Catholic religion is hardly \nconfined to South America . The ballgame is not specifically the \naforementioned game, in which catching the ball in one's hand is illegal, \nthough it has elements of it.\n\nOn the other hand, the coloration of the people fits, and Mamelta had a pet \nparrot named Chiquita.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4074.89.178.145.63.1303546863.squirrel@websecu.irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "soloviev at irit.fr", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-04-23T08:21:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<9D68A36154A84D2EBE0C28AAA545B751@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear participants of the thread -\n\nmy impression is that this discussion is based on slightly\ndistorted premisses - as if some perfect correspondence between\ndifferent places in our world and in the Whorl is to be expected.\nWould this correspondence be the main secret of the universe\ndescribed by GW?\n\nUrth itself is in some correspondence to our Earth,\nin geography as well, but this correspondence\nis not an isomorphism. It looks like Nessus is somewhere\nin southern hemisphere, like Buenos-Aires (there are pampas,\nmountains like Andes), there are Ascians coming from another continent,\nbut at the\nsame time there are hints that the continents are different;\nit is some sort of \"parallel Earth\". I think\nthe geography of URTH was discussed before but I had no\ntime to look. It is not the main point.\n\nWas such correspondence a prime concern of GW himself? I don't\nthink so. I think much more important is the idea that Pas\nis a sort of an impostor, a demiurge trying to substitute\nhimself for the Increate or Outsider, and as such his\ncreation cannot be perfect. It looks much more plausible\nthat he (Pas-Typhon) tried in some imperfect way to\nput in his cosmic Arc the representatives of all main\nhuman cultures. It seems that the question about the role\nof Pas is much more important, AND GW illustrated it\nin particular using this imperfect correspondence between\ncultures and places.\n\nBy the way, the story of Silk and Hyacinth in Viron reminds\nalso Romeo an Juliet in Verona. At the same time\nthe culture and institutions are more hispano-american\nas it was mentioned. I believe that the absence of\nperfect correspondence was intended by GW, and it is\nuseless to look for 'ultimate truth\" in this - the\npossibilty to establish perfect correspondence would be\ncontrary to his intentions.\n\nThe language of the Trivigauntis is semitic, (maliki etc).\nAt the West pole (sick bay) there\nare people of african descent. The people\nin Pajarocu and Wichote are amerindians.\n\nAll this makes sense if the Whorl was filled up in haste,\nprobably when the revolts against Typhon already started.\n\nSeverian meets Typhon twice - first time as a mummy\nthat resuscitates afterwards, and second as the Conciliator\njust before his demise. We get the information that\nTyphon had two heads (before going to mummified state)\nonly during relatively short period,\nabout one year. He had no time to take under control\nall the functions of the body belonging to his\nslave Piaton, and he obviously was scanned for the\nWhorl during this short period. So the Whorl was\nlaunched in the last year before the end of his rule.\nScylla (a copy from Whorl) says that she died young,\nwhen she looked at her coffin, less that a year after\nher scan. Implication: the family of Typhon\nwas probably killed in the same revolts.\n\nOne more thing: duco Rigoglio mentions the same\n\"Loganstone\" (some cosmic vessel) as Hethor\nin the \"Book of the New Sun\". A vessel used to fill\nthe Whorl?\n\nBest regards,\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm pretty sure that Viron's culture is South American--presumably that\nof\nthe Commonwealth. The \"ball game\" is based on the Nahuatl game. It's an\nanalogous Catholic culture.\n\nStill, that doesn't mean that Viron couldn't be based on Jerusalem of\ncourse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that it is plausibly South American, though I'm not terribly\nconvinced by the above points. The Commonwealth did not exist when the\nWhorl was launched, and the Whorl contains elements from numerous cultures\n(e.g. an Indian culture which provided the forebears of Gaon). The\nreligion\nof the Whorl is allegedly a parody of the state religion of Typhon's time,\nwhich would have been worldwide - and anyway the Catholic religion is\nhardly\nconfined to South America . The ballgame is not specifically the\naforementioned game, in which catching the ball in one's hand is illegal,\nthough it has elements of it.\n\nOn the other hand, the coloration of the people fits, and Mamelta had a\npet\nparrot named Chiquita.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-23T11:32:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4074.89.178.145.63.1303546863.squirrel@websecu.irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nmy impression is that this discussion is based on slightly\ndistorted premisses - as if some perfect correspondence between\ndifferent places in our world and in the Whorl is to be expected.\nWould this correspondence be the main secret of the universe\ndescribed by GW?\n\nUrth itself is in some correspondence to our Earth,\nin geography as well, but this correspondence\nis not an isomorphism.\n\nWas such correspondence a prime concern of GW himself? I don't\nthink so. I think much more important is the idea that Pas\nis a sort of an impostor, a demiurge trying to substitute\nhimself for the Increate or Outsider, and as such his\ncreation cannot be perfect. It looks much more plausible\nthat he (Pas-Typhon) tried in some imperfect way to\nput in his cosmic Arc the representatives of all main\nhuman cultures. It seems that the question about the role\nof Pas is much more important, AND GW illustrated it\nin particular using this imperfect correspondence between\ncultures and places." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that there is no special importance in any correspondences between \nplaces on Urth and present-day Earth. Likewise it is unimportant where the \nvarious individual cultures of the Whorl cities came from. I agree with you \nabouty the imperfection of the Whorl - Typhon arguably made about as good \naWhorl as is humanly possible to make, yet it is lamentably imperfect \ncompared with the outside universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, the story of Silk and Hyacinth in Viron reminds\nalso Romeo an Juliet in Verona. At the same time\nthe culture and institutions are more hispano-american\nas it was mentioned. I believe that the absence of\nperfect correspondence was intended by GW, and it is\nuseless to look for 'ultimate truth\" in this - the\npossibilty to establish perfect correspondence would be\ncontrary to his intentions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't quite see the Romeo and Juliet correspondence! But indeed, I agree \nthat there is no intended mirror of any culture, event or myth. Wolfe uses \nfragmentary reflections of many other stories for various purposes, \nincluding humour. But his stories are always his own - they are never \nretellings of some earlier story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All this makes sense if the Whorl was filled up in haste,\nprobably when the revolts against Typhon already started.\n\nSeverian meets Typhon twice - first time as a mummy\nthat resuscitates afterwards, and second as the Conciliator\njust before his demise. We get the information that\nTyphon had two heads (before going to mummified state)\nonly during relatively short period,\nabout one year. He had no time to take under control\nall the functions of the body belonging to his\nslave Piaton, and he obviously was scanned for the\nWhorl during this short period. So the Whorl was\nlaunched in the last year before the end of his rule.\nScylla (a copy from Whorl) says that she died young,\nwhen she looked at her coffin, less that a year after\nher scan. Implication: the family of Typhon\nwas probably killed in the same revolts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously the timescale of Typhon's life is finite, and many things must \nhave happened fast. Your argument above makes a lot of sense, and yet I \nhave a feeling that it should not be pushed too far in matters of detail. \nThe iconography of two-headed Typhon seems to have been very strongly \nestablished among the early colonists, suggesting a relatively long period \nof rule by him in this form, On the other hand, Mamelta talks about the \nroyal family wandering through her dreams, as well as never having to \nspeak - it's clear that some alarmingly intrusive brain-networking \ntechnology was prevalent on Urth at the time, so such iconography might have \nbeen established rapidly. (My pet theory is that the *removal* of this \ntechnology was what was done to the colonists on the Whorl - they remember \nit as the destruction of their memories whereas in fact they were being set \nfree, at least partially. It is also conceivable, of course, that the \ntwo-headed iconography was implanted as a sort of joke.)\n\nAs for Scylla, my impression was that she revolted against Typhon and was \nkilled by him. But I don't know; your theory is perfectly possible also.\n\nWolfe wasn't thinking about the history surrounding the launch of the Whorl, \nand probably not thinking much about the details of Typhon's story at all, \nwhen he depicted him in Sword of the Lictor. I think later when he was \nwriting Book of the Long Sun, he saw how he could do a lot with the \ntwo-headed concept. So he used it even though logically Typhon probably had \ntwo heads for too short a time for its use to be 100% believable. Maybe \nI'm underestimating Wolfe, but I think picking at such threads in too much \ndetail, or chronological logic, may lead to the construction of random \nunintended stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One more thing: duco Rigoglio mentions the same\n\"Loganstone\" (some cosmic vessel) as Hethor\nin the \"Book of the New Sun\". A vessel used to fill\nthe Whorl?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is Mamelta I recall as referring to the Loganstone, and indeed that is \nwhat it seems to be, although there is some inconsistency in her talk about \nit which I will put down to confusion.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DB2B94B.6080104@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-23T11:34:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<9D68A36154A84D2EBE0C28AAA545B751@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Whorl always struck me as a kind of Tower of Babel. Does that fit?\n\nIt's a monument to human ego, a \"message\" to the universe about human \ngreatness, AND a kind of human cultural zoo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/22/2011 7:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm pretty sure that Viron's culture is South American--presumably \nthat of the Commonwealth. The \"ball game\" is based on the Nahuatl \ngame. It's an analogous Catholic culture.\n\nStill, that doesn't mean that Viron couldn't be based on Jerusalem of \ncourse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that it is plausibly South American, though I'm not terribly \nconvinced by the above points. The Commonwealth did not exist when \nthe Whorl was launched, and the Whorl contains elements from numerous \ncultures (e.g. an Indian culture which provided the forebears of \nGaon). The religion of the Whorl is allegedly a parody of the state \nreligion of Typhon's time, which would have been worldwide - and \nanyway the Catholic religion is hardly confined to South America . \nThe ballgame is not specifically the aforementioned game, in which \ncatching the ball in one's hand is illegal, though it has elements of it.\n\nOn the other hand, the coloration of the people fits, and Mamelta had \na pet parrot named Chiquita.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-23T11:57:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4DB2B94B.6080104@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nThe Whorl always struck me as a kind of Tower of Babel. Does that fit?\n\nIt's a monument to human ego, a \"message\" to the universe about human \ngreatness, AND a kind of human cultural zoo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are some resemblances, but some distinct differences too.\n\nThe Whorl is a momument to one man's ego; Babel was a monument to human ego.\n\nTyphon separated the Whorl into cities so the inhabitants could not conspire \nagainst him (or hs analogue Pas). This resembles God's splitting of the \nhuman race into multiple linguistic cultures as a response to Babel.\n\nAlthough the asteroid is probably ellipsoidal, internally I guess it could \nbe considered a tower of sorts, if we consider it as centred on the axis of \nthe Long Sun.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DB33B4B.2030707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-04-23T20:49:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope you don't think the differences rule out the correspondence in \ngeneral.\n\nYes, I'd say the \"long\" part of Long Sun can be taken figuratively as \nwell as literally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/23/2011 7:57 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Whorl always struck me as a kind of Tower of Babel. Does that fit?\n\nIt's a monument to human ego, a \"message\" to the universe about human \ngreatness, AND a kind of human cultural zoo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are some resemblances, but some distinct differences too.\n\nThe Whorl is a momument to one man's ego; Babel was a monument to \nhuman ego.\n\nTyphon separated the Whorl into cities so the inhabitants could not \nconspire against him (or hs analogue Pas). This resembles God's \nsplitting of the human race into multiple linguistic cultures as a \nresponse to Babel.\n\nAlthough the asteroid is probably ellipsoidal, internally I guess it \ncould be considered a tower of sorts, if we consider it as centred on \nthe axis of the Long Sun.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-25T15:51:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Geography of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "<4DB33B4B.2030707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Soloviev: One more thing: duco Rigoglio mentions the same\"Loganstone\" \n(some cosmic vessel) as Hethor in the \"Book of the New Sun\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHethor mentions the Quasar, IIRC (an appropriate name for a ship which will\nseek the \"white fountain\"). Not familiar with a connection of loganstone to\nHethor. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DADA032.1000900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T18:31:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DACAA4D.6050003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, in \"Exodus of the Long Sun\", in chapter 14, \"The Best Thieves in \nthe Whorl\", page 313 (HB version),\nSiyuf is having a discussion with Mint. Marble is not there.\n\nA paragraph says:\n\"Siyuf looked back to Maytera Marble. 'You wish to tell me of the \nCharter of your city before this man have interrupt you. I find this of \ninterest.' \"\n\nIn \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\", this typo is repeated.\nThere is another typo in the book that does the same thing but I don't \nneed to look it up. It is surely there.\nConsequently, it is quite reasonable to assume that the Roche/Drotte \nmix-up could also be a typo. Perhaps once a book has been copyrighted, \nit is deemed to expensive for Tor to update it. Perhaps Wolfe has a \npersonal philosophy about these things. \"Once published, the tree lays \nwhere it falls.\"\n\nUnfortunately, these means that we cannot hope that later editions will \never help us by separating Wolfe's errors from his intentions.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/18/2011 4:17 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWhen I get home, I intend to see if the Marble/Mint mix-up in the \"The \nBook of Long Sun\" was replicated in the \"Epiphany of the Long Sun\" \nre-release. Wolfe seemed quite annoyed by mistakes like that when he \nwas asked. If it is there, I will accept it as possible that an \neditorial mistake like that could be considered Set In Stone and \nreproduced in all subsequent volumes.\n\nIf it was fixed in subsequent volumes, then I will have ask why the \nDrotte/Roche error was never fixed in all the re-releases in that last \n31 years.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DADA048.3070304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T18:31:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DAD76C7.1030204@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 6:49 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nRose's hands appear to be gloves of a kind, that seem to work on both \nbios and chems by covering the limb, not replacing it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would anyone make prosthetic hands for a woman that look old? On the \nother hand, whatever one believes about Rose's hands, the fact that they \nare *old-looking* requires its own speculative theory. She first started \nwearing them when she was in her forties.\n\nIn Nightside, Silk speculates how much of Rose is hers anymore.\n\nI'm already involved in compiling evidence that Hy is Fava so I might \nnot do anything to defend it, but this is what I believe.\n\n1) Rose's hands are from a chem.\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/molybdenum.htm\n2) They are old because they belonged to Maytera Betel before they were \nRose's.\n3) They absorbed her personality so readily because that is what \nchem-technology is designed to do. That's why Marble can remember Urth's \nshort sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 3:01 AM, soloviev at irit.fr wrote:\nI am not so sure that this explanation is right. Please, remind, James,\nwhere it is said that Rose's prosthetic hands are not flesh?\nIn the \"Book of the New Sun\" Severian has a friend Jonas, who\nis a chem (at Urth at this time they are not called so), but\nJonas has one hand and some other parths taken from a bio -\nhe explains it himself to Severian. So the combination is\npossible.\n\nI don't remember where it was said, maybe it is your own\ndeduction that they (Rose's hands) are not flesh, only\n\"realistically veined\", because they could be \"grafted\"\nto Marble?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting take, but who would have done the grafting?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T21:50:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "<4DADA048.3070304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ". Perhaps once a book has been copyrighted," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it is deemed to expensive for Tor to update it. Perhaps Wolfe has a\npersonal philosophy about these things. \"Once published, the tree lays\nwhere it falls.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Epiphany_ certainly diverges from earlier editions at one point: the\nmemorable line 'At that moment I burst into the room' is changed to\nthe dull 'At that moment Horn burst into the room'.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would anyone make prosthetic hands for a woman that look old? On the\nother hand, whatever one believes about Rose's hands, the fact that they\nare *old-looking* requires its own speculative theory. She first started\nwearing them when she was in her forties." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you remember where that is established? If she was actually old\nwhen she got them, they can have been made to look old just to blend\nnaturally with the rest of her. If, on the other hand, they were made\nfor a chem, why would they be made to look old? The sense I get is\nthat Marble looked young for as long as she had a human appearance at\nall.\n\nThat they are, in any case, mechanical and not flesh seems to be\nestablished by the fact that, when one is severed, the talus workshop\nis thought to be the place to go to have it reattached. .I don't think\nthe talus manufacturers would be able to work with flesh. Isn't there\neven a bit about how it's not just a matter of welding, there are\nwires that have to be reattached, or something like that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) ?They absorbed her personality so readily because that is what\nchem-technology is designed to do. That's why Marble can remember Urth's\nshort sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't follow this - why in any case would Marble not remember the\nshort sun? Wasn't she created under it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE57004.5080703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T22:47:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Drotte-Roche mixup", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason:\n_Epiphany_ certainly diverges from earlier editions at one point: the\nmemorable line 'At that moment I burst into the room' is changed to\nthe dull 'At that moment Horn burst into the room'.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. That's really bizarre. They 'fixed' that but they didn't fix the \nMarble/Mint mix-up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would anyone make prosthetic hands for a woman that look old? On the\nother hand, whatever one believes about Rose's hands, the fact that they\nare *old-looking* requires its own speculative theory. She first started\nwearing them when she was in her forties." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you remember where that is established? If she was actually old\nwhen she got them, they can have been made to look old just to blend\nnaturally with the rest of her. If, on the other hand, they were made\nfor a chem, why would they be made to look old? The sense I get is\nthat Marble looked young for as long as she had a human appearance at\nall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is in \"Calde of the Long Sun\" during Rose's funeral when \nEchidna-in-Marble takes Musk and burns him in the flames:\n\n \"This fine and living man,\" she pronounced slowly, \"is presented to\n me, to Divine Echidna.\" Her hands, *the bony blue-veined hands of a\n elderly bio*, glowed crimson in the flames. \"Mother of the Gods.\n Incomparable Echidna, Queen of the _Whorl_. Fair Echidna! Smile upon\n us. Send us beasts for the chase. Great Echidna! Put forth thy green\n grass for our kine...\"\n\nWhatever you choose to believe about Marble's/Rose's hands, explaining \nthem requires that you leave specific textual references. Female chems \nalways look like young girls. That is established (although I'd have to \nlook it up). Rose got the hands when she was in her 40s. Blood \nremembers when she had the first one installed and recognized it.\n\nRoy has proffered that perhaps they were mocked to look old so they \nwould \"age with her\". But of course that presumes that she would get old \nenough for the body to match the hands. Others have suggested it was \ndone to keep Rose humble.\n\nI say that the hands first belonged to Betel and were mocked to look old \nso it would not be apparent that they _were_ prosthesis. The \nembarrassment was due to the origin of those hands. And where they came \nfrom was what Marble was reminding Betel of -- shaming her-- when she \nrepeatedly asked for shriving by Betel over lying about having posed for \nthat picture in the cenoby. She was implying \"Remember Betel? I took \nMolybdenum's identity just as you took her hands.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That they are, in any case, mechanical and not flesh seems to be\nestablished by the fact that, when one is severed, the talus workshop\nis thought to be the place to go to have it reattached. .I don't think\nthe talus manufacturers would be able to work with flesh. Isn't there\neven a bit about how it's not just a matter of welding, there are\nwires that have to be reattached, or something like that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. They are definitely not flesh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3) They absorbed her personality so readily because that is what\nchem-technology is designed to do. That's why Marble can remember Urth's\nshort sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't follow this - why in any case would Marble not remember the\nshort sun? Wasn't she created under it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does she recount a single memory regarding her life under Urth's sun as \ndoes Rigoglo?\nI contend her memories are from those of a bio. Additionally, there is \nthis from Nightside.\n\n \"Maytera Marble could remember the short sun, a disk of orange fire;\n and it seemed to her that the chief virtue of that old sun had been\n that no list, no menu, ever appeared unbidden beneath its rays.\"\n\nEither:\n\n1) This makes no sense because until relatively recently no list or menu \nappeared to Marble \"unbidden\" under the Long Sun either.\n\n2) The reason no such list or menu appeared to her under Urth's sun was \nbecause she was a bio.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<006401cc2090$e0468840$d8cd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-06-01T19:19:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4DE57004.5080703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First, I want to address the recently debated issue of how long it had been\nsince the _Whorl_ left Urth, because it may have some slight relevance to\nwhat follows. The date on the letter Quetzal had sent to all the manteions,\nin which he endorsed Silk as calde, was \"30th Nemesis 332\" (CALDE, p-173).\nSilkhorn, shortly after the Battle of Blanko, put the number of years at\nabout 355 (IGJ, 323). Estimates of how much time had passed on Urth since\nRigoglio had lived there ranged between 2,500 and 1,000 years (IGJ, 325)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote, quoted, wrote:\n3) They absorbed her personality so readily because that is what\nchem-technology is designed to do. That's why Marble can remember\nUrth's\nshort sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't follow this - why in any case would Marble not remember the\nshort sun? Wasn't she created under it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does she recount a single memory regarding her life under Urth's sun as\ndoes Rigoglo?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She remembered when she first woke, naked, in what seems to be a factory or\nstorage room containing other fem chems, and trying to boot up (EXODUS,\n119-20). She was given clothes suitable for a maid (125).\n\nShe remembered standing in a sun-drenched field in a line of servants as\nthey and chem soldiers waited for the transport ship that would take them up\nto the _Whorl_:\n----------------\n Enormous darkness high overhead, blotting the sun-drenched field, the\nstraggling line of servants in which she had stood, and the soldiers'\nprecise column. She had seen it descend from the sky, at first a fleck of\nblack that had seemed no bigger than a flake of soot; had said, \"It looks so\ndirty.\" A soldier had overheard her and called, \"Why don't you dust it?\"\n Everyone had laughed, and she had laughed, too, though she had been\nhumiliated to tears, had tears been possible for her. Angry and defiant, she\nhad met his eyes and sensed the longing there. And longed.\n How tall he had been! How big and strong! So much steel! (CALDE, 285)\n-----------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I contend her memories are from those of a bio. Additionally, there is\nthis from Nightside.\n\n \"Maytera Marble could remember the short sun, a disk of orange fire;\n and it seemed to her that the chief virtue of that old sun had been\n that no list, no menu, ever appeared unbidden beneath its rays.\"\n\nEither:\n\n1) This makes no sense because until relatively recently no list or menu\nappeared to Marble \"unbidden\" under the Long Sun either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently Marble's body had been on the fritz for quite some time. She\nstopped voluntarily calling up the list of defective parts a long time\nbefore, probably because there was nothing she could do about getting new\nparts or getting her old ones repaired:\n\n\"She could bring up a list of her nonfunctioning and defective parts\nwhenever she chose. She had not chosen to do so for close to a century; but\nfrom time to time, most often when the cenoby lay on the night side of the\nlong sun, that list came up of itself.\" (NIGHTSIDE, 30)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) The reason no such list or menu appeared to her under Urth's sun was\nbecause she was a bio." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We both know that Marble was a chem, not a bio. No list of defective parts\nappeared to her on Urth because she had none; she was fresh from the\nfactory. (Hammerstone said that chems had been stockpiled for ten years\nbefore being transported up to the _Whorl_.) Her name, when she was the\n\"maid-of-all-work\" at the cenoby on Sun Street, had been Magnesia. Even the\nhousemaid Molybdenum, Hammerstone's lost sweetheart, had been manufactured\non Urth, so I don't see how you could conclude that either chem maid had\never been a bio on Urth. And fat Betel died some 45-50 years before the\nopening of NIGHTSIDE, nearly three centuries after the _Whorl_ left Urth.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE6B587.8060700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-01T21:56:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<006401cc2090$e0468840$d8cd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, Roy.\n\nJust a clarification and a couple of interpretations that I don't agree about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "J Wynn:\n2) The reason no such list or menu appeared to her under Urth's sun was\nbecause she was a bio." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy:\nWe both know that Marble was a chem, not a bio." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. What I assert is that the chems personalities come from scans a people\nusing the same technology that made the gods. Their memories were wiped\n(to the extent they could be), skills added, and the personalities\ntinkered to make them better suited to their jobs.\nThat's why the Ayunamiento was so easily able to retro-fit bodies\nfor themselves from chems. If Lemur had known more about chems, he might not\nhave been surprised that his body could die without him even realizing.\nIt also explains why Rose's parts so readily absorbed her personality and memories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nShe remembered standing in a sun-drenched field in a line of servants as\nthey and chem soldiers waited for the transport ship that would take them up\nto the_Whorl_:\n----------------\n \"Enormous darkness high overhead, blotting the sun-drenched field," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The above is surely a description of a scene on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the straggling line of servants in which she had stood, and the soldiers'\nprecise column. She had seen it descend from the sky, at first a fleck of\nblack that had seemed no bigger than a flake of soot; [...](CALDE, 285)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is \"coming down\" here is the line of servants and soldiers.\nBecause they are on the Whorl, she can see the very long line descend\nfrom the skylands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She remembered when she first woke, naked, in what seems to be a factory or\nstorage room containing other fem chems, and trying to boot up\n(EXODUS, 119-20). She was given clothes suitable for a maid (125)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's from the beginning of chapter 7 for those not using a hardcover version or Epiphany:\n\n \"I've been trying to remember where I came from,\" Maytera Marble ventured.\n \"I don't think it was like this at all [the talus yard] .\" [...]\n I couldn't remember a thing [about it previously], I'm sure. Not till\n poor Maytera Rose bequeathed me my new parts. I'm sure I must have told\n you about them.[...] They're much better than my old ones,\n but after I'd put them in, it was hard for me to keep straight which memories\n were Marble's and which were mine. [...]\n Anyway, I recollect a big room with green walls. There were pallets, or\n perhaps metal tables, little ones about as high as a bed. [...]\n I was lying on one, and I didn't have any clothes on. [...]\n I was trying to boot, and I remember that the girl next to me sat up and\n said she was naked, which she certainly was. When she did, somebody brought\n her a dress.\"\n\nThen later:\n\n \"The clothes that were given to me when I woke? I didn't get to them,\n but you're right. After a while I sat up too, and another girl gave me\n my first clothes. Were you going to ask me what kind of clothes they were?\"\n\n Swallow nodded. \"That's right, I was.\"\n\n \"A little black dress, very simple, with rather a short skirt.\n Underclothes.\" Maytera Marble paused to smile. \"I was about to say I'd\n prefer not to describe them, but they were so plain that there's hardly\n anything to describe. Black shoes with low heels, but I don't think there\n were any stockings. A pretty little lace apron and a matching cap.\n It's easy for me to describe those clothes, because people from Ermine's\n came to Patera's palace just before we left, and there were young women\n dressed exactly as I was then, except that they had stockings.\"\n\n \"Did they come to clean?\" Swallow asked. \"Sweep and dust?\"\n\n \"Dear Chenille and I have done that already. To wash the dishes they'll need\n tonight and set the table, and wash walls we haven't gotten to.\n At least I hope they'll wash those walls and the downstairs windows.\n I asked them to.\"\n\n Swallow nodded again. \"You see, Calde, each of us is born to do certain\n things. Maytera was born to sweep and dust, and wash walls and floors,\n and she's still doing it. Did you have to urge her to?\"\n\n Silk shook his head.\n\n \"I would have been surprised if you'd said you did...\"\n\nThe text doesn't really give a clue as to whether this is on Urth or the Whorl.\nHowever, if it was on Urth, it doesn't seem she had a job on Urth prior to\nworking on the Whorl. She says this is \"where she came from\". She didn't come\nfrom the \"so-and-so plantation\". Her first job was working on the Whorl.\n\nAside from information about chem psychology, Swallow's analysis reflects\non Silk as well since his personality was tinkered to make him a leader.\n\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE6FC16.9010201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-06-02T02:57:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4DE6B587.8060700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/1/2011 5:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:\nShe remembered standing in a sun-drenched field in a line of servants as\nthey and chem soldiers waited for the transport ship that would take them up\nto the_Whorl_:\n----------------\n \"Enormous darkness high overhead, blotting the sun-drenched field,\nThe above is surely a description of a scene on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the straggling line of servants in which she had stood, and the soldiers'\nprecise column. She had seen it descend from the sky, at first a fleck of\nblack that had seemed no bigger than a flake of soot; [...](CALDE, 285)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is \"coming down\" here is the line of servants and soldiers.\nBecause they are on the Whorl, she can see the very long line descend\nfrom the skylands." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This doesn't seem possible. What would such a large airship be doing \ninside the Whorl? And surely it is a ship that appeared tiny at first." } ] }, { "message_id": "<007401cc20f7$8ee0a640$bad14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2011-06-02T07:34:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4DE6B587.8060700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nShe remembered standing in a sun-drenched field in a line of servants as\nthey and chem soldiers waited for the transport ship that would take\nthem up\nto the_Whorl_:\n----------------\n \"Enormous darkness high overhead, blotting the sun-drenched field,\nThe above is surely a description of a scene on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the straggling line of servants in which she had stood, and the\nsoldiers'\nprecise column. She had seen it descend from the sky, at first a fleck\nof\nblack that had seemed no bigger than a flake of soot; [...](CALDE, 285)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is \"coming down\" here is the line of servants and soldiers.\nBecause they are on the Whorl, she can see the very long line descend\nfrom the skylands." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not a chance. Even a miles-long line of chems walking on the inner surface\nof the _Whorl_ toward a particular sun-drenched field would not, could not\nblot out the light from the long sun. Marble and the other chems were\nstanding in a field waiting for a spaceship to come down. It was the\nspaceship that first appeared as a fleck of black. It appeared larger and\nlarger as it neared the chems, until its giant shadow covered them: \"When\nhad it been, that sun-drenched field? The jokes and the laughter, and the\noverhanging, overawing shadow that had made them fall silent?\" (CALDE, 282)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She remembered when she first woke, naked, in what seems to be a factory\nor\nstorage room containing other fem chems, and trying to boot up\n(EXODUS, 119-20). She was given clothes suitable for a maid (125)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's from the beginning of chapter 7 for those not using a hardcover\nversion or Epiphany:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip of long quote from talus factory scene]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The text doesn't really give a clue as to whether this is on Urth or the\nWhorl.\nHowever, if it was on Urth, it doesn't seem she had a job on Urth prior to\nworking on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, she didn't have a job on Urth. Neither did Hammerstone or the other chem\nsoldiers. They were being stockpiled, like he said, before being put aboard\nthe _Whorl_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She says this is \"where she came from\". She didn't come\nfrom the \"so-and-so plantation\". Her first job was working on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Her first job was on the _Whorl_ as the maid-of-all-work at the Sun\nStreet cenoby. Eventually the staff there and at the manteion dwindled to\njust four; young Pike, Betel, Rose and herself, Magnesia. Maggie was pressed\ninto service as a teacher. When people complained that the kids were being\ntaught by a mere chem maid, she was made a sibyl and traded in her maid's\ndress with its shortish skirt for a long sibyl's habit (see wedding scene,\nchapter 11, p-231-32, EXODUS), but she continued to do the work of a maid.\nWith her new clothes came her new name, Marble. No reprogramming was needed\nfor her to become a sibyl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aside from information about chem psychology, Swallow's analysis reflects\non Silk as well since his personality was tinkered to make him a leader." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, his genes were tinkered with.\n\nAnyway, I want to get back to the old-looking prosthetic hands, which is why\nI got involved. You are right that Rose got the first when she was in her\nforties, and young Blood saw it. It is not clear whether Betel was still\nalive or not at that point. Rose was forty when she gave birth, and Blood\nwas nine when she lost track of his foster mother. This latter fact suggests\nto me that she lost track of the foster mother at or about the same time\nthat she became Senior Sibyl, which she became upon the death of Betel. As\nSenior Sibyl, and with the manteion staff so short of personnel that a chem\nmaid had been pressed into service as a sibyl, she may no longer have had\nthe luxury of enough time to indulge herself with her seasonal visits with\nher child.\n\nI don't subscribe to your theory that chems, in general, got their\npersonalities from scans of real people, though something like that may have\nhappened with Potto, Lemur and other members of the Ayuntamiento. The ship\nhad been stocked with many hundreds of thousands of chem soldiers and an\nuntold number of civilian chems. The soldiers had been programmed to be\nloyal to Pas and their respective cities, in that order, and not even Incus'\ntinkering with Hammerstone's loyalties could alter that. Chem servants were\nlikewise programmed for their particular jobs. Their personalities seem to\nhave been the product of personal experiences, meaning those experiences\nacquired after being booted for the first time. Sidero was not a chem, but\nhe is an example of what I mean. He and his kind started out as glorified\nspacesuits but eventually evolved into AIs in their own right. Hammerstone\nwas not at all religious and I believe Marble became religious only from\nliving and working in a manteion, the more so after she became a sibyl.\n\nBe that as it may, you have mentioned four entities in conjunction with\nthose hands; Rose, Marble, Betel and Molybdenum. The two chem maids were\nmanufactured on Urth. Both Betel and Rose were born more that two-hundred\nyears after the _Whorl_ left Urth. Therefore, I do not believe that any of\nthe four had any personal connection to those hands that originated from any\ngiven bio on Urth. As Marble said and you pointed out, chems never look old,\nwhich is one of the reasons artists liked to use them as models, as was the\ncase with the cenoby painting.\n\nYou have asserted that Betel somehow acquired Molybdenum's hands and had\nthem altered to look old. Whether that is true or not, trying to connect the\nhands to a bio on Urth is a needless complication.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<183166.20392.qm@smtp817.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2011-06-02T08:14:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4DE6B587.8060700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 22:56 01/06/2011, James wrote:\n \"Enormous darkness high overhead, blotting the sun-drenched field,\nthe straggling line of servants in which she had stood, and the soldiers'\nprecise column. She had seen it descend from the sky, at first a fleck of\nblack that had seemed no bigger than a flake of soot; [...](CALDE, 285)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is \"coming down\" here is the line of servants and soldiers.\nBecause they are on the Whorl, she can see the very long line descend\nfrom the skylands." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I don't think that can be right -- the \"it\" that descends from \nthe sky is the \"enormous darkness\", the subject of the previous \nsentence (ie. a ship above them, which first appeared high up as a \nfleck of black but is now enormous), not the line.\n\nA line of which she was herself an element couldn't appear to her \nlike a fleck. Also, if talking of a line of chems of which she and \nthe soldier are elements, they wouldn't say \"it\" was dirty.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE77CE8.9080805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T12:07:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<183166.20392.qm@smtp817.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Enormous darkness high overhead, blotting the sun-drenched field, the \nstraggling line of servants in which she had stood, and the soldiers' \nprecise column. She had seen it descend from the sky, at first a fleck \nof black that had seemed no bigger than a flake of soot; [...](CALDE, 285)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "J Wynn: What is \"coming down\" here is the line of servants and soldiers.\nBecause they are on the Whorl, she can see the very long line descend\nfrom the skylands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy:\nNot a chance. Even a miles-long line of chems walking on the inner surface\nof the _Whorl_ toward a particular sun-drenched field would not, could not\nblot out the light from the long sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar:\nNo, I don't think that can be right -- the \"it\" that descends from the \nsky is the \"enormous darkness\", the subject of the previous sentence \n(ie. a ship above them, which first appeared high up as a fleck of \nblack but is now enormous), not the line. A line of which she was \nherself an element couldn't appear to her like a fleck. Also, if \ntalking of a line of chems of which she and the soldier are elements, \nthey wouldn't say \"it\" was dirty. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really think you ar e both misreading this. It's \"enormous darkness \nOVERHEAD blotting the sundrenched fields\". If the darkness is overhead, \nthen it can't blot the sun-drenched fields which --on Urth-- are below. \nI think you guys are thinking of \"blot out\" which is a different \npicture. If it is the shadow of a transport \"blotting the fields\" then \nit can't be overhead. What we are to envision is the blackness of the \nNightside against the \"sun-drenched fields\" of the Dayside.\n\nIt is not the line of chems that is dirty, nor a transport. It is the \nWhorl itself which has only recently been completed. Marble is a maid \nchem and so sees everything in terms of whether it needs cleaning or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar:\nNo, I don't think that can be right -- the \"it\" that descends from the \nsky is the \"enormous darkness\", the subject of the previous sentence \n(ie. a ship above them, which first appeared high up as a fleck of \nblack but is now enormous), not the line. A line of which she was \nherself an element couldn't appear to her like a fleck. Also, if \ntalking of a line of chems of which she and the soldier are elements, \nthey wouldn't say \"it\" was dirty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy:\nMarble and the other chems were\nstanding in a field waiting for a spaceship to come down. It was the\nspaceship that first appeared as a fleck of black. It appeared larger and\nlarger as it neared the chems, until its giant shadow covered them: \"When\nhad it been, that sun-drenched field? The jokes and the laughter, and the\noverhanging, overawing shadow that had made them fall silent?\" (CALDE, 282)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again, this is the Nightside that is overawing. There are no cities \nthat are lit up on the Nightside yet. This is a view of the dawning of \ncreation when there are no \"stars\" in the Nightside skylands. That is \nwhat is significant about this memory.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE786EB.3040805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T12:49:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<183166.20392.qm@smtp817.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \"Enormous darkness high overhead, blotting the sun-drenched field, \nthe straggling line of servants in which she had stood, and the \nsoldiers' precise column. She had seen it descend from the sky, at \nfirst a fleck of black that had seemed no bigger than a flake of soot; \n[...](CALDE, 285)\n\n\nMo Holkar:\nthe \"it\" that descends from the sky is the \"enormous darkness\", the \nsubject of the previous sentence (ie. a ship above them, which first \nappeared high up as a fleck of black but is now enormous), not the \nline. A line of which she was herself an element couldn't appear to \nher like a fleck. Also, if talking of a line of chems of which she and \nthe soldier are elements, they wouldn't say \"it\" was dirty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One other thing...the \"enormous darkness\" is not the subject of this \nsentence. In fact it is not a sentence at all, but a sentence fragment. \nThe enormous darkness carries no more weight than the \"straggling line \nof servants\" and \"the soldier's precise column\".\n\nBut at the least the line and the column are closer to the pronoun \"it\" \nthan the the darkness. The lines are \"descending\" from the skylands \nuntil it disappears into a little dot. Possibly that dot was the opening \nfrom which they entired the cargo area. Perhaps not.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-06-02T13:56:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4DE786EB.3040805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \n \"Enormous darkness high overhead, blotting the sun-drenched field, the \nstraggling line of servants in which she had stood, and the soldiers' \nprecise column. She had seen it descend from the sky, at first a fleck of \nblack that had seemed no bigger than a flake of soot; [...](CALDE, 285)\n\nMo Holkar:\nthe \"it\" that descends from the sky is the \"enormous darkness\", the \nsubject of the previous sentence (ie. a ship above them, which first \nappeared high up as a fleck of black but is now enormous), not the line. \nA line of which she was herself an element couldn't appear to her like a \nfleck. Also, if talking of a line of chems of which she and the soldier \nare elements, they wouldn't say \"it\" was dirty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One other thing...the \"enormous darkness\" is not the subject of this \nsentence. In fact it is not a sentence at all, but a sentence fragment. \nThe enormous darkness carries no more weight than the \"straggling line of \nservants\" and \"the soldier's precise column\".\n\nBut at the least the line and the column are closer to the pronoun \"it\" \nthan the the darkness. The lines are \"descending\" from the skylands until \nit disappears into a little dot. Possibly that dot was the opening from \nwhich they entired the cargo area. Perhaps not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Roy and Mo. They are on Urth watching a transport descend from \nthe Whorl to pick them up.\n\nThe sentence in the paragraph about the darkness may be imperfectly formed, \nbut I think it is natural to read the transport ship as a growing black \npresence in the sky, and when it comes relatively close to the ground its \ndarkness also darkens (blots) the field in which Marble and her cohorts are \nwaiting. (Note that they are standing, not walking - so why does the dark \nfleck grow? It most be in motion relative to the ground on which they \nstand.)\n\nFurther evidence comes from the circumstances in which Marble recalls this \nevent. She is standing on the roof as the \"vast dark bulk\" of Saba's \nairship passes overhead. Just like the lander that came for her on Urth. \nThat's why she remembers it at that moment.\n\nI don't know why the transport looks dirty, though. Maybe simply because it \nis so dark, and seems dirty to the inexperienced chem maid.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T14:53:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I agree with Roy and Mo. They are on Urth watching a transport descend from \nthe Whorl to pick them up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agree. Factory on Urth. Parts can be stored on the Whorl but not manufactured, hence their \nscarcity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know why the transport looks dirty, though. Maybe simply because it \nis so dark, and seems dirty to the inexperienced chem maid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think something like that. She has been programmed to clean up black specks without the\nexperience to distinguish the ceiling from the sky. Like the old saying, when you are a \nhammer, everything looks like a nail. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE7C7D9.7020000@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-06-02T17:26:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also agree. I think also that when you look up from the field against\nthe sun the transport, as usually an object against the Sun seems much\ndarker. What seems to me strange - sun-drenched field, if the Sun was\nalready red. Maybe it wasn't. Did it became red so quick?\n\nSergei\nfinally that GW does not pay too much attention to technical details." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nGerry Quinn: I agree with Roy and Mo. They are on Urth watching a transport descend from \nthe Whorl to pick them up.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agree. Factory on Urth. Parts can be stored on the Whorl but not manufactured, hence their \nscarcity.\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know why the transport looks dirty, though. Maybe simply because it \nis so dark, and seems dirty to the inexperienced chem maid.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think something like that. She has been programmed to clean up black specks without the\nexperience to distinguish the ceiling from the sky. Like the old saying, when you are a \nhammer, everything looks like a nail. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE7E7F1.4020702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T19:43:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4DE7C7D9.7020000@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/2/2011 12:26 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI also agree. I think also that when you look up from the field against\nthe sun the transport, as usually an object against the Sun seems much\ndarker. What seems to me strange - sun-drenched field, if the Sun was\nalready red. Maybe it wasn't. Did it became red so quick?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon says the sun began to dim during his reign and that the \nluminosity dropped by 7 parts in 1000 while he was on Urth. That and a \nlack of other changes discussed suggests that in his time it was still \n99.3% of its original brightness. It seems to have continued to dim and \nmay have grown a bit larger and redder over the centuries, but there are \nstill many pictures to compare it with and only its redness is remarked \nupon, so any change in angular size is probably not large.\n\n\nThe old man in the cabin IIIRC tells of a truly bright day when the sun \nwas as bright as people say it was in the old days, which suggests that \nthe sun has good days and bad either from Urthly weather or solar \nactivity or both.\n\nIf course, if the moon is truly closer in, it would also appear bigger, \nso it is possible that the sun is larger by a like amount, and the rule \nof thum that the sun and moon are about the same visual width would \nstill hold, and any solar eclipses would retain a similar character. If \nI were more awake I could speculate about lunar eclipses." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE831B9.9080903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-06-03T00:58:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4DE77CE8.9080805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/2/2011 8:07 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nI really think you ar e both misreading this. It's \"enormous darkness \nOVERHEAD blotting the sundrenched fields\". If the darkness is \noverhead, then it can't blot the sun-drenched fields which --on Urth-- \nare below. I think you guys are thinking of \"blot out\" which is a \ndifferent picture. If it is the shadow of a transport \"blotting the \nfields\" then it can't be overhead. What we are to envision is the \nblackness of the Nightside against the \"sun-drenched fields\" of the \nDayside. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your reading is not illogical, in fact it's brilliant, but I think it's \ncounterintuitive. And I read \"blot\" differently:\n\n 1. Mark or stain (something)\n * - the writing was messy and /blotted/\n\n 2. Obscure a view\n * - a dust shield /blotting/ out the sun\n\nI think your sense is #2, the obvious one, but I see it as #1. The \ndarkness above, since it creates a shadow, \"stains\" the sun-drenched \nfield below it. It does not blot it out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE8B9A0.3060108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-03T10:38:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Marble on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4DE831B9.9080903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (03-06-2011 01:58):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/2/2011 8:07 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I really think you ar e both misreading this. It's \"enormous darkness\nOVERHEAD blotting the sundrenched fields\". If the darkness is overhead,\nthen it can't blot the sun-drenched fields which --on Urth-- are below. I\nthink you guys are thinking of \"blot out\" which is a different picture. If\nit is the shadow of a transport \"blotting the fields\" then it can't be\noverhead. What we are to envision is the blackness of the Nightside\nagainst the \"sun-drenched fields\" of the Dayside." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your reading is not illogical," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With all respect to JW, I find it contorted to the point of hurting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in fact it's brilliant, but I think it's\ncounterintuitive. And I read \"blot\" differently:\n\n1. Mark or stain (something)\n* - the writing was messy and /blotted/\n\n2. Obscure a view\n* - a dust shield /blotting/ out the sun\n\nI think your sense is #2, the obvious one, but I see it as #1. The darkness\nabove, since it creates a shadow, \"stains\" the sun-drenched field below it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It does not blot it out." } ] } ] }