{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5996", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5996, "subject": "The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "messages": 16, "voices": 7, "first": "2011-04-17T00:10:08+00:00", "last": "2011-04-19T08:44:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1302999008.1802.16.camel@august>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Dubbeld", "address": "andy at foisdin.com" }, "date": "2011-04-17T00:10:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was recently reading through Endangered Species, and came across The\nNebraskan and the Nereid. It all seems relatively straightforward, right\nup until the end, when Dr. Thoe Papamarkos dives into the sea, leaving\nher things behind, including a canteen which seems to contain salt\nwater, and suddenly there's a dead woman on the beach.\n\n\"She smiled, then when he realized he could not convey the news of a\ntragic death with any decency in his inadequate Greek. Thoe would have\nto tell them. He would wait until someone came.\"\n\nI'm left with a couple of questions that perhaps someone on the list\nmight be able to help with:\n- Who is the girl? Is she the woman Sam's seen in the water earlier?\n- Where did she come from and why is she dead?\n- The introduction to Endangered Species hints that there's either love\nor sex in this story, but where?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<35AFC7E28F5E43209C81C07F92484FAE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-17T08:16:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<1302999008.1802.16.camel@august>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"Andrew Dubbeld\" \n\n\n[SPOILERS BELOW, for anyone who hasn't read it]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was recently reading through Endangered Species, and came across The\nNebraskan and the Nereid. It all seems relatively straightforward, right\nup until the end, when Dr. Thoe Papamarkos dives into the sea, leaving\nher things behind, including a canteen which seems to contain salt\nwater, and suddenly there's a dead woman on the beach.\n\n\"She smiled, then when he realized he could not convey the news of a\ntragic death with any decency in his inadequate Greek. Thoe would have\nto tell them. He would wait until someone came.\"\n\nI'm left with a couple of questions that perhaps someone on the list\nmight be able to help with:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Who is the girl? Is she the woman Sam's seen in the water earlier?\n- Where did she come from and why is she dead?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My understanding is:\n\nThe dead girl was the maid at the inn where he stayed, and to whom he made \nlove to in the cave. After he went back to the inn, he complained about the \nbed not been made. Later the landlady must have said this to the maid. She \nrealised that he had not recognised her, and drowned herself.\n\nDr. Papamarkos is a Nereid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- The introduction to Endangered Species hints that there's either love\nor sex in this story, but where?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sex for the Nebraskan, love for the maid, I think.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<892310.57001.qm@smtp815.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2011-04-17T10:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<35AFC7E28F5E43209C81C07F92484FAE@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:16 17/04/2011, Gerry wrote:\nFrom: \"Andrew Dubbeld\" \n\n\n[SPOILERS BELOW, for anyone who hasn't read it]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was recently reading through Endangered Species, and came across The\nNebraskan and the Nereid. It all seems relatively straightforward, right\nup until the end, when Dr. Thoe Papamarkos dives into the sea, leaving\nher things behind, including a canteen which seems to contain salt\nwater, and suddenly there's a dead woman on the beach.\n\n\"She smiled, then when he realized he could not convey the news of a\ntragic death with any decency in his inadequate Greek. Thoe would have\nto tell them. He would wait until someone came.\"\n\nI'm left with a couple of questions that perhaps someone on the list\nmight be able to help with:\n- Who is the girl? Is she the woman Sam's seen in the water earlier?\n- Where did she come from and why is she dead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My understanding is:\n\nThe dead girl was the maid at the inn where he stayed, and to whom \nhe made love to in the cave. After he went back to the inn, he \ncomplained about the bed not been made. Later the landlady must \nhave said this to the maid. She realised that he had not recognised \nher, and drowned herself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My understanding is the same, except for this last bit about how/why \nthe maid died. I think that the Nereid took her life, in exchange for \nfacilitating the experience. (Or possibly that she just drowned in \nthe treacherous waters, although that seems less likely.)\n\nOn reading it back now, I realize I can't actually see any evidence \nfor my theory, but then I can't see any for yours either :-) so I \nguess it may come down to narrative preference.\n\nI do have a further question, though, which is: why did the Nereid \nscratch the letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended \nto be read as a trident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But \nthat seems a bit clunky when earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly \nsymbolized by a letter pi.)\n\nBTW the stories from Endangered Species are mostly quite sketchy on \nthe wiki -- if anyone would like to fill in a few interpretations, \nthat would be very welcome:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.EndangeredSpecies\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-04-17T13:24:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<892310.57001.qm@smtp815.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anyone know if there are any other 'The Nebraskan' stories besides this\none and 'Lord of the Land'? (The latter is one of my all time fave G.W.\nshort stories, and I was pleased to see he had another 'Nebraskan' story and\nthat in the intro to Endangered Species he said he'd like to have enough to\ncollect in a book some day.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Mo Holkar wrote:\nAt 09:16 17/04/2011, Gerry wrote:\n\n From: \"Andrew Dubbeld\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[SPOILERS BELOW, for anyone who hasn't read it]\n\n\n I was recently reading through Endangered Species, and came across The\nNebraskan and the Nereid. It all seems relatively straightforward, right\nup until the end, when Dr. Thoe Papamarkos dives into the sea, leaving\nher things behind, including a canteen which seems to contain salt\nwater, and suddenly there's a dead woman on the beach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"She smiled, then when he realized he could not convey the news of a\ntragic death with any decency in his inadequate Greek. Thoe would have\nto tell them. He would wait until someone came.\"\n\nI'm left with a couple of questions that perhaps someone on the list\nmight be able to help with:\n- Who is the girl? Is she the woman Sam's seen in the water earlier?\n- Where did she come from and why is she dead?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My understanding is:\n\nThe dead girl was the maid at the inn where he stayed, and to whom he made\nlove to in the cave. After he went back to the inn, he complained about the\nbed not been made. Later the landlady must have said this to the maid. She\nrealised that he had not recognised her, and drowned herself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My understanding is the same, except for this last bit about how/why the\nmaid died. I think that the Nereid took her life, in exchange for\nfacilitating the experience. (Or possibly that she just drowned in the\ntreacherous waters, although that seems less likely.)\n\nOn reading it back now, I realize I can't actually see any evidence for my\ntheory, but then I can't see any for yours either :-) so I guess it may come\ndown to narrative preference.\n\nI do have a further question, though, which is: why did the Nereid scratch\nthe letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended to be read as a\ntrident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But that seems a bit clunky\nwhen earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly symbolized by a letter pi.)\n\nBTW the stories from Endangered Species are mostly quite sketchy on the\nwiki -- if anyone would like to fill in a few interpretations, that would be\nvery welcome:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.EndangeredSpecies\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-17T13:25:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<892310.57001.qm@smtp815.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Mo Holkar\" \nAt 09:16 17/04/2011, Gerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My understanding is:\n\nThe dead girl was the maid at the inn where he stayed, and to whom he made \nlove to in the cave. After he went back to the inn, he complained about \nthe bed not been made. Later the landlady must have said this to the \nmaid. She realised that he had not recognised her, and drowned herself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My understanding is the same, except for this last bit about how/why the \nmaid died. I think that the Nereid took her life, in exchange for \nfacilitating the experience. (Or possibly that she just drowned in the \ntreacherous waters, although that seems less likely.)\n\nOn reading it back now, I realize I can't actually see any evidence for my \ntheory, but then I can't see any for yours either :-) so I guess it may \ncome down to narrative preference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Nereid explained her motivation. She wanted to marry the Nebraskan \nProfessor. \"You cannot imagine what village life is like for such a girl, \nwho has no money, no dowry. Then a stranger comes, and he is tall and \nstrong, rich to her...\". She wanted life with him in America, not a moment \nof lust (and, realistically, she would hardly have had to bargain away her \nlife to achieve that!)\n\nBesides, I do not see the Nereid as a monster who would extract so hard a \nbargain for a small favour. And the maid knew the ways of Nereids; we have \na clue earlier for that.\n\nFurther evidence: Wolfe does not just say that the bed was unmade (this \nwould have been enough to link the girl to the maid, if that was all that \nwas intended). He notes also that the Professor complained to the landlady. \nThis is typical Wolfe IMO, dropping an important plot point in an aside. \nWhen the landlady in turn complained to the maid, she would have learned \nthat the Professor had not recognised her, or he would have said nothing \nabout the bed. (Or if he had recognised her and complained, that would have \nbeen worse.) So her dreams of life with him were over, or so she thought \nanyway, though perhaps she underestimated the ability of men, especially \nprofessors, to not notice stuff... (Had she persevered, I suspect a happy \noutcome was still possible.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do have a further question, though, which is: why did the Nereid scratch \nthe letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended to be read as \na trident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But that seems a bit \nclunky when earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly symbolized by a letter \npi.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it represents 'psyche' which means soul or butterfly. Various \ninterpretations related to this exist on the web, and I don't know their \nauthenticity (I don't think anyone really knows what the ancient Greeks \nbelieved), but certainly the symbology of inscribing it by one who has died \nseems very plausible\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW the stories from Endangered Species are mostly quite sketchy on the \nwiki -- if anyone would like to fill in a few interpretations, that would \nbe very welcome:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.EndangeredSpecies" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAAF5B0.1060701@web.de>", "from": { "name": "Nessun Saprà", "address": "nessun-sapra at web.de" }, "date": "2011-04-17T14:14:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do have a further question, though, which is: why did the Nereid \nscratch the letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended to \nbe read as a trident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But that \nseems a bit clunky when earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly \nsymbolized by a letter pi.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it represents 'psyche' which means soul or butterfly. Various \ninterpretations related to this exist on the web, and I don't know \ntheir authenticity (I don't think anyone really knows what the ancient \nGreeks believed), but certainly the symbology of inscribing it by one \nwho has died seems very plausible\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "BTW the stories from Endangered Species are mostly quite sketchy on \nthe wiki -- if anyone would like to fill in a few interpretations, \nthat would be very welcome:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.EndangeredSpecies" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "____" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think her name is Psamathe. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psamathe\n\nKlaus" } ] }, { "message_id": "<276004.58855.qm@smtp820.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2011-04-17T15:24:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<4DAAF5B0.1060701@web.de>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 15:14 17/04/2011, Klaus wrote:\nI do have a further question, though, which is: why did the Nereid \nscratch the letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended \nto be read as a trident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But \nthat seems a bit clunky when earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly \nsymbolized by a letter pi.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it represents 'psyche' which means soul or \nbutterfly. Various interpretations related to this exist on the \nweb, and I don't know their authenticity (I don't think anyone \nreally knows what the ancient Greeks believed), but certainly the \nsymbology of inscribing it by one who has died seems very plausible\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think her name is Psamathe. See: \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psamathe\n\nKlaus" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That sounds like a great theory -- she supposedly had special \nresponsibility for sandy beaches, it seems:\nhttp://www.theoi.com/Pontios/NereisPsamathe.html\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<144951.58855.qm@smtp820.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2011-04-17T15:28:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 14:24 17/04/2011, Daniel wrote:\nDoes anyone know if there are any other 'The Nebraskan' stories \nbesides this one and 'Lord of the Land'? (The latter is one of my \nall time fave G.W. short stories, and I was pleased to see he had \nanother 'Nebraskan' story and that in the intro to Endangered \nSpecies he said he'd like to have enough to collect in a book some day.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'The Fat Magician' and 'The Eleventh City' also involve him, \naccording to the wiki, although I don't have those so can't confirm details.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<714225.26321.qm@smtp817.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2011-04-17T15:38:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 14:25 17/04/2011, Gerry wrote:\nThe Nereid explained her motivation. She wanted to marry the \nNebraskan Professor. \"You cannot imagine what village life is like \nfor such a girl, who has no money, no dowry. Then a stranger comes, \nand he is tall and strong, rich to her...\". She wanted life with \nhim in America, not a moment of lust (and, realistically, she would \nhardly have had to bargain away her life to achieve that!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mm, good point. OK, I am convinced now :-) Thanks for explaining in detail!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Besides, I do not see the Nereid as a monster who would extract so \nhard a bargain for a small favour. And the maid knew the ways of \nNereids; we have a clue earlier for that.\n\nFurther evidence: Wolfe does not just say that the bed was unmade \n(this would have been enough to link the girl to the maid, if that \nwas all that was intended). He notes also that the Professor \ncomplained to the landlady. This is typical Wolfe IMO, dropping an \nimportant plot point in an aside. When the landlady in turn \ncomplained to the maid, she would have learned that the Professor \nhad not recognised her, or he would have said nothing about the bed. \n(Or if he had recognised her and complained, that would have been \nworse.) So her dreams of life with him were over, or so she thought \nanyway, though perhaps she underestimated the ability of men, \nespecially professors, to not notice stuff... (Had she persevered, I \nsuspect a happy outcome was still possible.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, this interpretation makes it an even sadder story than I'd \nthought... although he has previously seen the maid as 'dumpy', so \nperhaps he would still have been repelled on realization.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4214B7C8F8954426A82B6DAC2D9063FD@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-17T17:14:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<714225.26321.qm@smtp817.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Mo Holkar\" \nAt 14:25 17/04/2011, Gerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Further evidence: Wolfe does not just say that the bed was unmade (this \nwould have been enough to link the girl to the maid, if that was all that \nwas intended). He notes also that the Professor complained to the \nlandlady. This is typical Wolfe IMO, dropping an important plot point in \nan aside. When the landlady in turn complained to the maid, she would have \nlearned that the Professor had not recognised her, or he would have said \nnothing about the bed. (Or if he had recognised her and complained, that \nwould have been worse.) So her dreams of life with him were over, or so \nshe thought anyway, though perhaps she underestimated the ability of men, \nespecially professors, to not notice stuff... (Had she persevered, I \nsuspect a happy outcome was still possible.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, this interpretation makes it an even sadder story than I'd thought... \nalthough he has previously seen the maid as 'dumpy', so perhaps he would \nstill have been repelled on realization." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Dumpy' yes, when she was the maid... but earlier, when he compared his \nglimpse of her to 'Dr. Papamarkos', he thought she was 'rounder'. Nor was \nhe apparently repelled in the cave. I am inclined to think that she was no \nmore than pleasantly plump; he thought of her as 'dumpy' when he was not \npaying attention to her.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-17T17:33:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<276004.58855.qm@smtp820.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She gave her name as Thoe, who is the Nereis of waves or voyage. (I can't \nfind any significance in 'Papamarkos', which seems to be an ordinary Greek \nname.)\n\nAlso, why would she sign her own initial beside the corpse of the girl, \nunless she had indeed killed her?\n\nSo I still prefer the 'psyche' theory.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Mo Holkar\" \nAt 15:14 17/04/2011, Klaus wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do have a further question, though, which is: why did the Nereid scratch \nthe letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended to be read as \na trident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But that seems a bit \nclunky when earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly symbolized by a letter \npi.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it represents 'psyche' which means soul or butterfly. Various \ninterpretations related to this exist on the web, and I don't know their \nauthenticity (I don't think anyone really knows what the ancient Greeks \nbelieved), but certainly the symbology of inscribing it by one who has \ndied seems very plausible\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think her name is Psamathe. See: \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psamathe\n\nKlaus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That sounds like a great theory -- she supposedly had special \nresponsibility for sandy beaches, it seems:\nhttp://www.theoi.com/Pontios/NereisPsamathe.html\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<632543.76294.qm@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-04-18T04:34:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She gave her name as Thoe, who is the Nereis of waves or voyage. (I can't \nfind any significance in 'Papamarkos', which seems to be an ordinary Greek \nname.)\n\nAlso, why would she sign her own initial beside the corpse of the girl, unless \nshe had indeed killed her?\n\nSo I still prefer the 'psyche' theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about the other familiar Greek word beginning with a psi: pseudes, \"false\", \nand \"pseudein\", to lie. (Thanks to the AHD \n.) Has the maid \nbeen false to her people or her god? Has the Nebraskan been false to her? \nMaybe.\n\nBut I think its main meaning is Poseidon's trident.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4602400C0BAF40418C708C16E1214CEE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-18T10:56:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<632543.76294.qm@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nFrom: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She gave her name as Thoe, who is the Nereis of waves or voyage. (I \ncan't\nfind any significance in 'Papamarkos', which seems to be an ordinary Greek\nname.)\n\nAlso, why would she sign her own initial beside the corpse of the girl, \nunless\nshe had indeed killed her?\n\nSo I still prefer the 'psyche' theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about the other familiar Greek word beginning with a psi: pseudes, \n\"false\",\nand \"pseudein\", to lie. (Thanks to the AHD\n.) Has the \nmaid\nbeen false to her people or her god? Has the Nebraskan been false to her?\nMaybe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. Nor do I think she was false to the Nebraskan. Certainly \nI see no reason to inscribe a symbol of falsity beside her corpse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I think its main meaning is Poseidon's trident." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That could make some sense; it does look like one. But still, the letter pi \nis given to Poseidon earlier (perhaps even to contradict this \ninterpretation?) - does he really need another?\n\nI think a key element in interpretation (unless we assume a far more central \nand murderous role for the Nereid, which I don't think there's any \njustification for) is that the symbol pertains to the maid, not Thoe. I \ndon't see how the symbology associated with Poseidon or his trident fits \nWhereas psi (for psyche) seems appropriate enough to mark a tragic death.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<481563.18065.qm@smtp815.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2011-04-19T08:03:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<4602400C0BAF40418C708C16E1214CEE@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:56 18/04/2011, Gerry wrote:\nI think a key element in interpretation (unless we assume a far more \ncentral and murderous role for the Nereid, which I don't think \nthere's any justification for) is that the symbol pertains to the \nmaid, not Thoe. I don't see how the symbology associated with \nPoseidon or his trident fits Whereas psi (for psyche) seems \nappropriate enough to mark a tragic death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That certainly makes sense, although I think I would need to know \nthat ancient Greeks / mythic beings had a tradition of marking such \ndeaths in such a way. It would seem a bit weak for Wolfe just to have \ninvented it arbitrarily for this occasion.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0BD2C66A946442008E918759DAE20D32@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-04-19T08:11:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<481563.18065.qm@smtp815.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Mo Holkar\" \nAt 11:56 18/04/2011, Gerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think a key element in interpretation (unless we assume a far more \ncentral and murderous role for the Nereid, which I don't think \nthere's any justification for) is that the symbol pertains to the \nmaid, not Thoe. I don't see how the symbology associated with \nPoseidon or his trident fits Whereas psi (for psyche) seems \nappropriate enough to mark a tragic death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That certainly makes sense, although I think I would need to know \nthat ancient Greeks / mythic beings had a tradition of marking such \ndeaths in such a way. It would seem a bit weak for Wolfe just to have \ninvented it arbitrarily for this occasion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The letter is also a cross, which is quite Wolfean.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DAD4B6C.2000409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-04-19T08:44:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid", "in_reply_to": "<0BD2C66A946442008E918759DAE20D32@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/19/2011 3:11 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Mo Holkar\" \nAt 11:56 18/04/2011, Gerry wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think a key element in interpretation (unless we assume a far more\ncentral and murderous role for the Nereid, which I don't think\nthere's any justification for) is that the symbol pertains to the\nmaid, not Thoe. I don't see how the symbology associated with\nPoseidon or his trident fits Whereas psi (for psyche) seems\nappropriate enough to mark a tragic death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That certainly makes sense, although I think I would need to know that\nancient Greeks / mythic beings had a tradition of marking such deaths\nin such a way. It would seem a bit weak for Wolfe just to have\ninvented it arbitrarily for this occasion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The letter is also a cross, which is quite Wolfean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Wolfe is not the first to treat it thus:\n\nhttp://smithmeadows.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/American-Gothic.jpg" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }