Subject: (urth) The Nebraskan and the Nereid

From: Andrew Dubbeld <andy at foisdin.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 00:10:08 +0000

I was recently reading through Endangered Species, and came across The
Nebraskan and the Nereid. It all seems relatively straightforward, right
up until the end, when Dr. Thoe Papamarkos dives into the sea, leaving
her things behind, including a canteen which seems to contain salt
water, and suddenly there's a dead woman on the beach.

"She smiled, then when he realized he could not convey the news of a
tragic death with any decency in his inadequate Greek. Thoe would have
to tell them. He would wait until someone came."

I'm left with a couple of questions that perhaps someone on the list
might be able to help with:
- Who is the girl? Is she the woman Sam's seen in the water earlier?
- Where did she come from and why is she dead?
- The introduction to Endangered Species hints that there's either love
or sex in this story, but where?

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 08:16:31 +0000

From: "Andrew Dubbeld" <andy at foisdin.com>

[SPOILERS BELOW, for anyone who hasn't read it]

> - Where did she come from and why is she dead?

My understanding is:

The dead girl was the maid at the inn where he stayed, and to whom he made 
love to in the cave.  After he went back to the inn, he complained about the 
bed not been made.  Later the landlady must have said this to the maid.  She 
realised that he had not recognised her, and drowned herself.

Dr. Papamarkos is a Nereid.

> or sex in this story, but where?

Sex for the Nebraskan, love for the maid, I think.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Mo Holkar <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:01:49 +0000

At 09:16 17/04/2011, Gerry wrote:

>The dead girl was the maid at the inn where he stayed, and to whom 
>he made love to in the cave.  After he went back to the inn, he 
>complained about the bed not been made.  Later the landlady must 
>have said this to the maid.  She realised that he had not recognised 
>her, and drowned herself.

My understanding is the same, except for this last bit about how/why 
the maid died. I think that the Nereid took her life, in exchange for 
facilitating the experience. (Or possibly that she just drowned in 
the treacherous waters, although that seems less likely.)

On reading it back now, I realize I can't actually see any evidence 
for my theory, but then I can't see any for yours either :-) so I 
guess it may come down to narrative preference.

I do have a further question, though, which is: why did the Nereid 
scratch the letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended 
to be read as a trident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But 
that seems a bit clunky when earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly 
symbolized by a letter pi.)

BTW the stories from Endangered Species are mostly quite sketchy on 
the wiki -- if anyone would like to fill in a few interpretations, 
that would be very welcome:
http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.EndangeredSpecies

best,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe
http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/

---

From: Daniel Petersen <danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:24:45 +0000

Does anyone know if there are any other 'The Nebraskan' stories besides this
one and 'Lord of the Land'?  (The latter is one of my all time fave G.W.
short stories, and I was pleased to see he had another 'Nebraskan' story and
that in the intro to Endangered Species he said he'd like to have enough to
collect in a book some day.)

-DOJP

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Mo Holkar <lists at ukg.co.uk> wrote:

> My understanding is the same, except for this last bit about how/why the
> maid died. I think that the Nereid took her life, in exchange for
> facilitating the experience. (Or possibly that she just drowned in the
> treacherous waters, although that seems less likely.)
>
> On reading it back now, I realize I can't actually see any evidence for my
> theory, but then I can't see any for yours either :-) so I guess it may come
> down to narrative preference.
>
> I do have a further question, though, which is: why did the Nereid scratch
> the letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended to be read as a
> trident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But that seems a bit clunky
> when earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly symbolized by a letter pi.)
>
> BTW the stories from Endangered Species are mostly quite sketchy on the
> wiki -- if anyone would like to fill in a few interpretations, that would be
> very welcome:
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>
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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:25:59 +0000

>>love to in the cave.  After he went back to the inn, he complained about 
>>the bed not been made.  Later the landlady must have said this to the 
>>maid.  She realised that he had not recognised her, and drowned herself.
>
> theory, but then I can't see any for yours either :-) so I guess it may 
> come down to narrative preference.

The Nereid explained her motivation.  She wanted to marry the Nebraskan 
Professor.  "You cannot imagine what village life is like for such a girl, 
who has no money, no dowry.  Then a stranger comes, and he is tall and 
strong, rich to her...".  She wanted life with him in America, not a moment 
of lust (and, realistically, she would hardly have had to bargain away her 
life to achieve that!)

Besides, I do not see the Nereid as a monster who would extract so hard a 
bargain for a small favour.  And the maid knew the ways of Nereids; we have 
a clue earlier for that.

Further evidence: Wolfe does not just say that the bed was unmade (this 
would have been enough to link the girl to the maid, if that was all that 
was intended).  He notes also that the Professor complained to the landlady. 
This is typical Wolfe IMO, dropping an important plot point in an aside. 
When the landlady in turn complained to the maid, she would have learned 
that the Professor had not recognised her, or he would have said nothing 
about the bed. (Or if he had recognised her and complained, that would have 
been worse.)  So her dreams of life with him were over, or so she thought 
anyway, though perhaps she underestimated the ability of men, especially 
professors, to not notice stuff... (Had she persevered, I suspect a happy 
outcome was still possible.)

> the letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended to be read as 
> a trident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But that seems a bit 
> clunky when earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly symbolized by a letter 
> pi.)

I think it represents 'psyche' which means soul or butterfly.  Various 
interpretations related to this exist on the web, and I don't know their 
authenticity (I don't think anyone really knows what the ancient Greeks 
believed), but certainly the symbology of inscribing it by one who has died 
seems very plausible

- Gerry Quinn

> wiki -- if anyone would like to fill in a few interpretations, that would 
> be very welcome:

---

From: Nessun Saprà <nessun-sapra at web.de>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:14:08 +0000

I do have a further question, though, which is: why did the Nereid 
scratch the letter psi into the sand by the body? (Or is it intended to 
be read as a trident shape denoting allegiance to Poseidon? But that 
seems a bit clunky when earlier we've seen Poseidon explicitly 
symbolized by a letter pi.)
> interpretations related to this exist on the web, and I don't know 
> their authenticity (I don't think anyone really knows what the ancient 
> Greeks believed), but certainly the symbology of inscribing it by one 
> who has died seems very plausible
>
> - Gerry Quinn
>
>
>
>
> ____

I think her name is Psamathe. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psamathe

Klaus
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From: Mo Holkar <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:24:28 +0000

At 15:14 17/04/2011, Klaus wrote:
>>I think it represents 'psyche' which means soul or 
>>butterfly.  Various interpretations related to this exist on the 
>>web, and I don't know their authenticity (I don't think anyone 
>>really knows what the ancient Greeks believed), but certainly the 
>>symbology of inscribing it by one who has died seems very plausible
>>
>>- Gerry Quinn
>
>I think her name is Psamathe. See: 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psamathe>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psamathe
>
>Klaus

That sounds like a great theory -- she supposedly had special 
responsibility for sandy beaches, it seems:
http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/NereisPsamathe.html

best,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

---

From: Mo Holkar <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:28:41 +0000

At 14:24 17/04/2011, Daniel wrote:
>Does anyone know if there are any other 'The Nebraskan' stories 
>besides this one and 'Lord of the Land'?  (The latter is one of my 
>all time fave G.W. short stories, and I was pleased to see he had 
>another 'Nebraskan' story and that in the intro to Endangered 
>Species he said he'd like to have enough to collect in a book some day.)
>
>-DOJP

'The Fat Magician' and 'The Eleventh City' also involve him, 
according to the wiki, although I don't have those so can't confirm details.

best,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

---

From: Mo Holkar <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:38:21 +0000

At 14:25 17/04/2011, Gerry wrote:
>The Nereid explained her motivation.  She wanted to marry the 
>Nebraskan Professor.  "You cannot imagine what village life is like 
>for such a girl, who has no money, no dowry.  Then a stranger comes, 
>and he is tall and strong, rich to her...".  She wanted life with 
>him in America, not a moment of lust (and, realistically, she would 
>hardly have had to bargain away her life to achieve that!)

Mm, good point. OK, I am convinced now :-) Thanks for explaining in detail!

>Besides, I do not see the Nereid as a monster who would extract so 
>hard a bargain for a small favour.  And the maid knew the ways of 
>Nereids; we have a clue earlier for that.
>
>Further evidence: Wolfe does not just say that the bed was unmade 
>(this would have been enough to link the girl to the maid, if that 
>was all that was intended).  He notes also that the Professor 
>complained to the landlady. This is typical Wolfe IMO, dropping an 
>important plot point in an aside. When the landlady in turn 
>complained to the maid, she would have learned that the Professor 
>had not recognised her, or he would have said nothing about the bed. 
>(Or if he had recognised her and complained, that would have been 
>worse.)  So her dreams of life with him were over, or so she thought 
>anyway, though perhaps she underestimated the ability of men, 
>especially professors, to not notice stuff... (Had she persevered, I 
>suspect a happy outcome was still possible.)

Yes, this interpretation makes it an even sadder story than I'd 
thought... although he has previously seen the maid as 'dumpy', so 
perhaps he would still have been repelled on realization.

best,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 17:14:39 +0000

From: "Mo Holkar" <lists at ukg.co.uk>

>>was intended).  He notes also that the Professor complained to the 
>>landlady. This is typical Wolfe IMO, dropping an important plot point in 
>>an aside. When the landlady in turn complained to the maid, she would have 
>>learned that the Professor had not recognised her, or he would have said 
>>nothing about the bed. (Or if he had recognised her and complained, that 
>>would have been worse.)  So her dreams of life with him were over, or so 
>>she thought anyway, though perhaps she underestimated the ability of men, 
> Yes, this interpretation makes it an even sadder story than I'd thought... 
> although he has previously seen the maid as 'dumpy', so perhaps he would 
> still have been repelled on realization.

'Dumpy' yes, when she was the maid... but earlier, when he compared his 
glimpse of her to 'Dr. Papamarkos', he thought she was 'rounder'.  Nor was 
he apparently repelled in the cave.  I am inclined to think that she was no 
more than pleasantly plump; he thought of her as 'dumpy' when he was not 
paying attention to her.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 17:33:19 +0000

She gave her name as Thoe, who is the Nereis of waves or voyage.  (I can't 
find any significance in 'Papamarkos', which seems to be an ordinary Greek 
name.)

Also, why would she sign her own initial beside the corpse of the girl, 
unless she had indeed killed her?

So I still prefer the 'psyche' theory.

- Gerry Quinn

>>>believed), but certainly the symbology of inscribing it by one who has 
>>>died seems very plausible
>>>
>>>- Gerry Quinn
>>

---

From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 04:34:49 +0000

> From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>

> Also, why would she sign her own initial beside the corpse of the  girl, unless 
>she had indeed killed her?
> 

How about the other familiar Greek word beginning with a psi: pseudes, "false", 
and "pseudein", to lie.  (Thanks to the AHD 
<http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/pseudo->.)  Has the maid 
been false to her people or her god?  Has the Nebraskan been false to her?  
Maybe.

But I think its main meaning is Poseidon's trident.

Jerry Friedman

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 10:56:04 +0000

From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>

> been false to her people or her god?  Has the Nebraskan been false to her?

I don't think so.  Nor do I think she was false to the Nebraskan.  Certainly 
I see no reason to inscribe a symbol of falsity beside her corpse.

> But I think its main meaning is Poseidon's trident.

That could make some sense; it does look like one. But still, the letter pi 
is given to Poseidon earlier (perhaps even to contradict this 
interpretation?) - does he really need another?

I think a key element in interpretation (unless we assume a far more central 
and murderous role for the Nereid, which I don't think there's any 
justification for) is that the symbol pertains to the maid, not Thoe.  I 
don't see how the symbology associated with Poseidon or his trident fits 
Whereas psi (for psyche) seems appropriate enough to mark a tragic death.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Mo Holkar <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:03:47 +0000

At 11:56 18/04/2011, Gerry wrote:
>I think a key element in interpretation (unless we assume a far more 
>central and murderous role for the Nereid, which I don't think 
>there's any justification for) is that the symbol pertains to the 
>maid, not Thoe.  I don't see how the symbology associated with 
>Poseidon or his trident fits Whereas psi (for psyche) seems 
>appropriate enough to mark a tragic death.

That certainly makes sense, although I think I would need to know 
that ancient Greeks / mythic beings had a tradition of marking such 
deaths in such a way. It would seem a bit weak for Wolfe just to have 
invented it arbitrarily for this occasion.

best,

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:11:42 +0000

> invented it arbitrarily for this occasion.

The letter is also a cross, which is quite Wolfean.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:44:28 +0000

On 4/19/2011 3:11 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
>> That certainly makes sense, although I think I would need to know that
>> ancient Greeks / mythic beings had a tradition of marking such deaths
>> in such a way. It would seem a bit weak for Wolfe just to have

And Wolfe is not the first to treat it thus:

http://smithmeadows.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/American-Gothic.jpg

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >