{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6005", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6005, "subject": "Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "messages": 25, "voices": 9, "first": "2011-05-12T07:27:10+00:00", "last": "2011-05-17T00:43:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "beet 31425", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T07:27:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi folks-- first-time poster. Doing a pretty detailed re-read of New Sun.\n\nI'm having trouble visualizing the sundial in the Atrium of Time. It's\ndescribed as \"one of those old, faceted dials whose multitudinous faces give\neach a different time.\" And later, there is a reference to \"one of its\ngnomons\", implying it has more than one. What kind of a sundial has multiple\nfaces and gnomons? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Any thoughts?\n\nbtw, it's pretty cool that \"Aspice ut aspiciar\", translated as \"Look on me\nthat I might be looked upon\", is an appeal made to the sun (not to a human\nbystander).\n\n\n-Jason" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCB99B5.9090009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T08:26:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/12/2011 2:27 AM, beet 31425 wrote:\nHi folks-- first-time poster. Doing a pretty detailed re-read of New Sun.\n\nI'm having trouble visualizing the sundial in the Atrium of Time. It's\ndescribed as \"one of those old, faceted dials whose multitudinous faces\ngive each a different time.\" And later, there is a reference to \"one of\nits gnomons\", implying it has more than one. What kind of a sundial has\nmultiple faces and gnomons? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Any thoughts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.harrietjames.sundials.co.uk/restoration.htm" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-05-12T13:22:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<4DCB99B5.9090009@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was asking the same question recently.\nOn the page Jeff linked to, there is one that looks almost like a cube with cut corners. I'd seen it, wondering how it could be a sundial. Well I think the photoI saw was without the restored gnomons. I thought it looked like a good contender for the Multi-faceted form, but I couldn't see how it was a sundial. This picture makes it clear. Thanks.\n\nI love the idea that it's become it's own gnomon. Meta-Level-Alert!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 12, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 5/12/2011 2:27 AM, beet 31425 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hi folks-- first-time poster. Doing a pretty detailed re-read of New Sun.\n\nI'm having trouble visualizing the sundial in the Atrium of Time. It's\ndescribed as \"one of those old, faceted dials whose multitudinous faces\ngive each a different time.\" And later, there is a reference to \"one of\nits gnomons\", implying it has more than one. What kind of a sundial has\nmultiple faces and gnomons? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Any thoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.harrietjames.sundials.co.uk/restoration.htm\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T13:28:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here are some decent pictures of multifaceted sundials with multiple\ngnomons:\n\nhttp://www.davidbrownsundials.com/chch14_cutout_med.gif\nhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/G%C3%B6ttingen_Cubic_Sundial_cropped.JPG\nhttp://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/nof/sun/access/images/sd3a.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI was asking the same question recently.\nOn the page Jeff linked to, there is one that looks almost like a cube with\ncut corners. I'd seen it, wondering how it could be a sundial. Well I think\nthe photoI saw was without the restored gnomons. I thought it looked like a\ngood contender for the Multi-faceted form, but I couldn't see how it was a\nsundial. This picture makes it clear. Thanks.\n\nI love the idea that it's become it's own gnomon. Meta-Level-Alert!\n\n\n\nOn May 12, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/12/2011 2:27 AM, beet 31425 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hi folks-- first-time poster. Doing a pretty detailed re-read of New\nSun.\n\nI'm having trouble visualizing the sundial in the Atrium of Time. It's\ndescribed as \"one of those old, faceted dials whose multitudinous faces\ngive each a different time.\" And later, there is a reference to \"one of\nits gnomons\", implying it has more than one. What kind of a sundial has\nmultiple faces and gnomons? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Any\nthoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.harrietjames.sundials.co.uk/restoration.htm\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T13:33:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the pictures is from this website:\n\nhttp://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/nof/sun/access/sd3_moreinfo.html\n\nThis explains quite a lot about how such sundials work. Pretty\nfascinating! The only quirk is that this particular one was more of a\ndesign and engineering feat, since all the faces were to show the same time\nat a given moment, while the one described by Severian shows different times\non different faces. I suppose it would not be too hard to configure the\ndifferent sides so that they give times with a specific differentiation, so\nthat you could know the time elsewhere on the planet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nHere are some decent pictures of multifaceted sundials with multiple\ngnomons:\n\nhttp://www.davidbrownsundials.com/chch14_cutout_med.gif\n\nhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/G%C3%B6ttingen_Cubic_Sundial_cropped.JPG\nhttp://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/nof/sun/access/images/sd3a.jpg\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was asking the same question recently.\nOn the page Jeff linked to, there is one that looks almost like a cube\nwith cut corners. I'd seen it, wondering how it could be a sundial. Well I\nthink the photoI saw was without the restored gnomons. I thought it looked\nlike a good contender for the Multi-faceted form, but I couldn't see how it\nwas a sundial. This picture makes it clear. Thanks.\n\nI love the idea that it's become it's own gnomon. Meta-Level-Alert!\n\n\n\nOn May 12, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 5/12/2011 2:27 AM, beet 31425 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Hi folks-- first-time poster. Doing a pretty detailed re-read of New\nSun.\n\nI'm having trouble visualizing the sundial in the Atrium of Time. It's\ndescribed as \"one of those old, faceted dials whose multitudinous faces\ngive each a different time.\" And later, there is a reference to \"one of\nits gnomons\", implying it has more than one. What kind of a sundial has\nmultiple faces and gnomons? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Any\nthoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "http://www.harrietjames.sundials.co.uk/restoration.htm\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "beet 31425", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T16:09:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the pictures, and thanks for the page that describes what a\nmulti-faceted sundial might actually be used for.\nI wouldn't quite say of these sundials that each face tells \"a different\ntime\" as Severian does; I wonder if they're purposely configured that way\n(as Antonin suggests), or if perhaps they just don't work very well billions\nof years in the future.\n\n(At any rate, on a symbolic or mood-setting level, this bizarre image of\nmultiple, contradictory times is another touch-- like the archaic words--\nthat serves to make the connection between Severian's time and ours obscure\nand unfathomable.)\n\n-Jason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nOne of the pictures is from this website:\n\nhttp://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/nof/sun/access/sd3_moreinfo.html\n\nThis explains quite a lot about how such sundials work. Pretty\nfascinating! The only quirk is that this particular one was more of a\ndesign and engineering feat, since all the faces were to show the same time\nat a given moment, while the one described by Severian shows different times\non different faces. I suppose it would not be too hard to configure the\ndifferent sides so that they give times with a specific differentiation, so\nthat you could know the time elsewhere on the planet.\n\n\nOn Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Antonin Scriabin <\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here are some decent pictures of multifaceted sundials with multiple\ngnomons:\n\nhttp://www.davidbrownsundials.com/chch14_cutout_med.gif\n\nhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/G%C3%B6ttingen_Cubic_Sundial_cropped.JPG\nhttp://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/nof/sun/access/images/sd3a.jpg\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Son of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was asking the same question recently.\nOn the page Jeff linked to, there is one that looks almost like a cube\nwith cut corners. I'd seen it, wondering how it could be a sundial. Well I\nthink the photoI saw was without the restored gnomons. I thought it looked\nlike a good contender for the Multi-faceted form, but I couldn't see how it\nwas a sundial. This picture makes it clear. Thanks.\n\nI love the idea that it's become it's own gnomon. Meta-Level-Alert!\n\n\n\nOn May 12, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 5/12/2011 2:27 AM, beet 31425 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Hi folks-- first-time poster. Doing a pretty detailed re-read of New\nSun.\n\nI'm having trouble visualizing the sundial in the Atrium of Time. It's\ndescribed as \"one of those old, faceted dials whose multitudinous\nfaces\ngive each a different time.\" And later, there is a reference to \"one\nof\nits gnomons\", implying it has more than one. What kind of a sundial\nhas\nmultiple faces and gnomons? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Any\nthoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "http://www.harrietjames.sundials.co.uk/restoration.htm\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<426F9A20-11AC-4493-AE69-5D8162933F6A@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-05-12T16:29:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for that page.\nI don't know, I think the description could fit, in that each face DOES give a different time, in that the each have a specific time range. Each has some patch of hours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 12, 2011, at 6:33 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nOne of the pictures is from this website:\n\nhttp://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/nof/sun/access/sd3_moreinfo.html\n\nThis explains quite a lot about how such sundials work. Pretty fascinating! The only quirk is that this particular one was more of a design and engineering feat, since all the faces were to show the same time at a given moment, while the one described by Severian shows different times on different faces. I suppose it would not be too hard to configure the different sides so that they give times with a specific differentiation, so that you could know the time elsewhere on the planet.\n\nOn Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nHere are some decent pictures of multifaceted sundials with multiple gnomons:\n\nhttp://www.davidbrownsundials.com/chch14_cutout_med.gif\nhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/G%C3%B6ttingen_Cubic_Sundial_cropped.JPG\nhttp://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/nof/sun/access/images/sd3a.jpg\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI was asking the same question recently.\nOn the page Jeff linked to, there is one that looks almost like a cube with cut corners. I'd seen it, wondering how it could be a sundial. Well I think the photoI saw was without the restored gnomons. I thought it looked like a good contender for the Multi-faceted form, but I couldn't see how it was a sundial. This picture makes it clear. Thanks.\n\nI love the idea that it's become it's own gnomon. Meta-Level-Alert!\n\n\n\nOn May 12, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/12/2011 2:27 AM, beet 31425 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hi folks-- first-time poster. Doing a pretty detailed re-read of New Sun.\n\nI'm having trouble visualizing the sundial in the Atrium of Time. It's\ndescribed as \"one of those old, faceted dials whose multitudinous faces\ngive each a different time.\" And later, there is a reference to \"one of\nits gnomons\", implying it has more than one. What kind of a sundial has\nmultiple faces and gnomons? I'm having trouble visualizing it. Any thoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.harrietjames.sundials.co.uk/restoration.htm\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T16:30:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<426F9A20-11AC-4493-AE69-5D8162933F6A@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Son of Witz\n wrote:\nI don't know, I think the description could fit, in that each face DOES give\na different time, in that the each have a specific time range. Each has some\npatch of hours." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It occurred to me that the sundials probably date back to Urth's\ninterstellar empire if not earlier. Maybe they tell times on different\n*worlds*." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T16:34:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nIt occurred to me that the sundials probably date back to Urth's\ninterstellar empire if not earlier. Maybe they tell times on different\n*worlds*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how you could do that - a sundial is limited to a 24-hour\ncycle (during about half of which it isn't showing anything)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCC1FEC.9090904@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T17:59:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurred to me that the sundials probably date back to Urth's\ninterstellar empire if not earlier. Maybe they tell times on different\n*worlds*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how you could do that - a sundial is limited to a 24-hour\ncycle (during about half of which it isn't showing anything)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would think you could. Any regular tick-tock could analogize a time \nusing a different synch. It would be incredibly complex though since a \nday somewhere else would be represented by more or less than a single \ncycle of the sun.\n\nHowever, doesn't Relativity eliminate the meaning of synchronous time \nfor locations separated by many lightyears? I'm not an expert on this \nbut it seems I read something that implied that. For example, traveling \nin a worm-hole (such the ones in the Stargate franchise) is actually \nTime-travel as well.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T18:03:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<4DCC1FEC.9090904@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 10:59 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nI would think you could. Any regular tick-tock could analogize a time using\na different synch. It would be incredibly complex though since a day\nsomewhere else would be represented by more or less than a single cycle of\nthe sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that was my point..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, doesn't Relativity eliminate the meaning of synchronous time for\nlocations separated by many lightyears? I'm not an expert on this but it\nseems I read something that implied that. For example, traveling in a\nworm-hole (such the ones in the Stargate franchise) is actually Time-travel\nas well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If there's FTL travel then some aspect of relativity is untrue.\n\nBut: taking relativity at face value, there is no such thing as \"time\ntravel\" -- or for that matter \"space travel.\" There is only spacetime\ntravel through a four-dimensional manifold. To move to another point\nin space is to move to another point in spacetime, and so to travel in\nspacetime. To move to another point in time while standing still, as\none does at a rate of one second per second, is also to move to\nanother point in spacetime. The problem is _why_ time is different and\ncan't be navigated at-will the way the other three dimensions can, and\nno satisfactory answer to that has yet been proposed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCC27C7.2060309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T18:32:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nIf there's FTL travel then some aspect of relativity is untrue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understood that only traveling @Lightspeed that was contrary to \nrelativity and that that was the problem wormholes were supposed to \ncircumvent?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThe problem is _why_ time is different and\ncan't be navigated at-will the way the other three dimensions can, and\nno satisfactory answer to that has yet been proposed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless space-time is deterministic, in which case we only THINK we move \nthrough space at will.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<881344.47809.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T20:00:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<4DCC1FEC.9090904@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern: > >> It occurred to me that the sundials probably date back to Urth's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "interstellar empire if not earlier. Maybe they tell times on different\n*worlds*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l: > > I don't see how you could do that - a sundial is limited to a 24-hour" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "cycle (during about half of which it isn't showing anything)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would think you could. Any regular tick-tock could analogize a time using a \ndifferent synch. It would be incredibly complex though since a day somewhere \nelse would be represented by more or less than a single cycle of the sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would have to be magic. Sundials don't have a regular tick-tock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, doesn't Relativity eliminate the meaning of synchronous time for \nlocations separated by many lightyears?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no problem if they're not moving at relativistic speeds with respect to \neach other (contrary to occasional double-talk that Poul Anderson permitted \nhimself).\n\nSo maybe not different worlds, but different whorls. If a generation starship's \nday is the same length as Urth's, it's no problem. Having a different face \ninstead of a different scale of hours is showing off, but obviously people have \ndone that. (Thanks to all who linked to the interesting photos.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not an expert on this but it seems I read something that implied that. For \nexample, traveling in a worm-hole (such the ones in the Stargate franchise) is \nactually Time-travel as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you can get from one place to another faster than light, as with a wormhole, \nthen you *can* use that to travel faster than light.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCC4497.5070602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T20:35:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<881344.47809.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would think you could. Any regular tick-tock could analogize a time using a\ndifferent synch. It would be incredibly complex though since a day somewhere\nelse would be represented by more or less than a single cycle of the sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nIt would have to be magic. Sundials don't have a regular tick-tock." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure they do. It's the yearly cycle of the sun. And that cycle (and \nfractions of it) can be used to synchronize anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not an expert on this but it seems I read something that implied that. For\nexample, traveling in a worm-hole (such the ones in the Stargate franchise) is\nactually Time-travel as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman:\nIf you can get from one place to another faster than light, as with a wormhole,\nthen you *can* use that to travel faster than light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I got the idea somewhere that the actual mathematics of the wormhole \ntheory does not allow you to cheat Relativity, so that the farther you \ntravel (that is, the greater the actual distance of your destination) \nthen your speed is all the faster than FTL travel and you therefore \n(likely) move back further in Time as well. It's just that when you \nreturn, you move the other way in Time so you don't notice.\n\nOf course, I might have been taken in by metaphor: They could have been \nactually saying that if you travel instantaneously to a distant star, \nyou are moving FORWARD in Time since the star we can see from Earth is \nsome number years ago. Or something along those lines.\n\nAnyway, it's probably not physically possible even if you could muster \nthe near infinite energy to do it. There's all that Space being \nconstantly created between us and the stars. We have enough trouble \nmaintaining RF connectivity. Can you imagine the problems establishing a \nphysical connection between two distant locations? Too bad because I \nreally want one of those doors from \"Howl's Moving Castle\".\n\nJ\n\nPS Incidentally, it's very annoying for me to watch movies that involve \nFTL travel. They never plot the Time distortions caused by their daily \njob. Captain Kirk spends months in Warp and never gets back to Earth \njust after he left (except when he goes back to 1968)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCCC018.3010704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T05:22:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/12/2011 11:34 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurred to me that the sundials probably date back to Urth's\ninterstellar empire if not earlier. Maybe they tell times on different\n*worlds*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how you could do that - a sundial is limited to a 24-hour\ncycle (during about half of which it isn't showing anything)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The animal statues in the atrium suggest a degree of ornamentation that \nmight include curved reflectors that transform the various motions of \nthe earth with regard to the sun into a series of curves with arbitrary \nperiods through a sufficiently advanced application of analytical \ngeometry. IIRC The Astronauts' Memorial at the Kennedy Space Center uses \na similar principle to illuminate the names of the the Apollo I and \nChallenger crews and a few others on the appropriate anniversary dates, \nand is located close by the Rocket Garden, hint hint.\n\nhttp://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:KSC_Rocket_Garden.jpg" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<136906.58189.qm@web114718.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T17:47:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<4DCC4497.5070602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn crushtv at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would think you could. Any regular tick-tock could analogize a time using \na\ndifferent synch. It would be incredibly complex though since a day \nsomewhere\nelse would be represented by more or less than a single cycle of the sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nIt would have to be magic. Sundials don't have a regular tick-tock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure they do. It's the yearly cycle of the sun. And that cycle (and fractions \nof it) can be used to synchronize anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there are no moving parts ticking that you can attach something too.\n\nI guess you could have a photocell on the dial that notes when the shadow passes \nit (and distinguishes that from clouds and from shadows of random apprentices). \nThose times could be fed to a microprocessor that translates this timing to the \nperiod of some other planet and manipulates the gnomon, dial, or light source of \nanother sundial to fake the time in some zone of another planet. But it all \nseems rather rococo and unreliable, even for the Citadel.\n\nLet me try to explain the same thing as Dan'l and Sergei. When the sun is at a \ncertain place in the sky (I mean when Urth is aiming the Citadel at a certain \nangle to the sun), the sundial will show a certain time. A day later, the \nsundial will show? a similar time, and 365 days later [*], an even more similar \ntime. But if it was morning on Mongo during the first reading, there's no \nreason for it to be morning on Mongo at the later two readings, since Mongo's \nday presumably isn't the same length as Urth's.\n\n[*]?You'd do even better?1461 days later, since the year isn't a whole number of \ndays." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not an expert on this but it seems I read something that implied that. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For\nexample, traveling in a worm-hole (such the ones in the Stargate franchise) \nis\nactually Time-travel as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman:\nIf you can get from one place to another faster than light, as with a \nwormhole,\nthen you *can* use that to travel faster than light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, you can use that to travel *backwards in time*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I got the idea somewhere that the actual mathematics of the wormhole theory \ndoes not allow you to cheat Relativity, so that the farther you travel (that is, \nthe greater the actual distance of your destination) then your speed is all the \nfaster than FTL travel and you therefore (likely) move back further in Time as \nwell. It's just that when you return, you move the other way in Time so you \ndon't notice.\n\nOf course, I might have been taken in by metaphor: They could have been \nactually saying that if you travel instantaneously to a distant star, you are \nmoving FORWARD in Time since the star we can see from Earth is some number years \nago. Or something along those lines." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand the mathematics of wormholes. What you're talking about \nseems to involve definitions and maybe indeed metaphor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, it's probably not physically possible even if you could muster the near \ninfinite energy to do it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's all that Space being constantly? created between us and the stars. We \nhave enough trouble maintaining RF connectivity. Can you imagine the problems \nestablishing a physical connection between two distant locations? Too bad \nbecause I really want one of those doors from \"Howl's Moving Castle\".\n\nJ\n\nPS Incidentally, it's very annoying for me to watch movies that involve FTL \ntravel. They never plot the Time distortions caused by their daily job. Captain \nKirk spends months in Warp and never gets back to Earth just after he left \n(except when he goes back to 1968)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if there's FTL travel, then something is wrong with relativity (as I think \nDan'l said), so we don't have a basis to say what would happen.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCD7301.10005@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T18:05:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<136906.58189.qm@web114718.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/13/2011 12:47 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn crushtv at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me try to explain the same thing as Dan'l and Sergei. When the sun is at a\ncertain place in the sky (I mean when Urth is aiming the Citadel at a certain\nangle to the sun), the sundial will show a certain time. A day later, the\nsundial will show a similar time, and 365 days later [*], an even more similar\ntime. But if it was morning on Mongo during the first reading, there's no\nreason for it to be morning on Mongo at the later two readings, since Mongo's\nday presumably isn't the same length as Urth's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it the same time everywhere on Mongo at once? :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, I might have been taken in by metaphor: They could have been\nactually saying that if you travel instantaneously to a distant star, you are\nmoving FORWARD in Time since the star we can see from Earth is some number years\nago. Or something along those lines." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since the rate of time's progression is relative, you can't say travel \nis instantaneous without saying in which frame of reference it is \nmeasured as instantaneous. Since other, equally valid frames of \nreference measure the time between your departure and your arrival as \nhaving finite, you can switch over to a frame where it was negative, and \ndo the instantaneous thing in that one, then find one where that was \nnegative, and do it again, etc., and that's how you end up returning \nbefore you left." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if there's FTL travel, then something is wrong with relativity (as I think\nDan'l said), so we don't have a basis to say what would happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are numerous relativity-compatible physics models that seem to \nallow for time travel, but explain the lack of of observed time travel \nby positing it requires improbable arrangements of nigh-unobtainable \nresources. Robert L Forward's negative mass as dramatized in his novel \nTIMEMASTER is once example: matter whose density is negative causes a \nnegative curvature of space-time, opposing the positive curvature from \npositive mass, among other weird things, but complies with all known \nphysical laws." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCD83F0.80909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T19:18:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<4DCD7301.10005@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nLet me try to explain the same thing as Dan'l and Sergei. When the \nsun is at a\ncertain place in the sky (I mean when Urth is aiming the Citadel at a \ncertain\nangle to the sun), the sundial will show a certain time. A day \nlater, the\nsundial will show a similar time, and 365 days later [*], an even \nmore similar\ntime. But if it was morning on Mongo during the first reading, \nthere's no\nreason for it to be morning on Mongo at the later two readings, since \nMongo's\nday presumably isn't the same length as Urth's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why this seems unimaginable. The vibration rate of a quartz \ncrystal is no less random a time-keeping sequence than the cycle of the \nUrth around Sol. A sun-dial that monitored the time on another planet \nwould be extremely complex, and --for civilization that can travel to \nother stars-- more of a curiosity than an object of utility. But there \nis no reason that it would not be possible (as long as the other planet \nhad a stable orbit). I don't really think that Wolfe ever considered \nwhat the various sun-dials monitored. They had symbolic value only." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIs it the same time everywhere on Mongo at once? :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously this is an issue with any set of synchronized clocks, not just \nsun-dials. Presumably, in the case under discussion, it would tell the \ntime a a major city on another planet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course, I might have been taken in by metaphor: They could have been\nactually saying that if you travel instantaneously to a distant \nstar, you are\nmoving FORWARD in Time since the star we can see from Earth is some \nnumber years\nago. Or something along those lines." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSince the rate of time's progression is relative, you can't say travel \nis instantaneous without saying in which frame of reference it is \nmeasured as instantaneous. Since other, equally valid frames of \nreference measure the time between your departure and your arrival as \nhaving finite, you can switch over to a frame where it was negative, \nand do the instantaneous thing in that one, then find one where that \nwas negative, and do it again, etc., and that's how you end up \nreturning before you left." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See? I suppose this is why I get confused when they talk about travel in \na wormhole being Time-travel. I got lost after your first sentence.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<434110.29999.qm@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T19:26:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<4DCD7301.10005@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nOn 5/13/2011 12:47 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: James Wynn crushtv at gmail.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let me try to explain the same thing as Dan'l and Sergei. When the sun is at \na\ncertain place in the sky (I mean when Urth is aiming the Citadel at a \ncertain\nangle to the sun), the sundial will show a certain time. A day later, the\nsundial will show? a similar time, and 365 days later [*], an even more \nsimilar\ntime. But if it was morning on Mongo during the first reading, there's no\nreason for it to be morning on Mongo at the later two readings, since \nMongo's\nday presumably isn't the same length as Urth's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it the same time everywhere on Mongo at once? :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SF lore:\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=92TqYdj56TcC&pg=PA146\n\nI did make this mistake when talking about time on the Whorl in an earlier post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course, I might have been taken in by metaphor: They could have been\nactually saying that if you travel instantaneously to a distant star, you \nare\nmoving FORWARD in Time since the star we can see from Earth is some number \nyears\nago. Or something along those lines." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since the rate of time's progression is relative, you can't say travel is \ninstantaneous without saying in which frame of reference it is measured as \ninstantaneous. Since other, equally valid frames of reference measure the time \nbetween your departure and your arrival as having finite, you can switch over to \na frame where it was negative, and do the instantaneous thing in that one, then \nfind one where that was negative, and do it again, etc., and that's how you end \nup? returning before you left." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I was thinking of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, if there's FTL travel, then something is wrong with relativity (as I \nthink\nDan'l said), so we don't have a basis to say what would happen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are numerous relativity-compatible physics models that seem to allow for \ntime travel, but explain the lack of of observed time travel by positing it \nrequires improbable arrangements of nigh-unobtainable resources. Robert L \nForward's negative mass as dramatized in his novel TIMEMASTER is once example: \nmatter whose density is negative causes a negative curvature of space-time, \nopposing the positive curvature from positive mass, among other weird things, \nbut complies with all known physical laws." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except the law that says there's no negative mass.\n\nI just made that law up, but sometimes the way these things work is that they \nhave no known conflict with physical laws for a while, and then somebody looks \nharder and finds one. For instance, Tipler's rotating cylinders seemed to work \ntill somebody found that the \"closed time-like loops\" were entirely within the \nevent horizon, as I recall.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T19:43:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<434110.29999.qm@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Jerry Friedman\n wrote:\nFor instance, Tipler's rotating cylinders seemed to work\ntill somebody found that the \"closed time-like loops\" were entirely within the\nevent horizon, as I recall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I recall correctly the spoiler for Tipler cylinders was Hawking's\nproof that it would require negative energy in some areas of the local\nspacetime." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCD8CD2.20304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T19:56:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I recall correctly the spoiler for Tipler cylinders was Hawking's\nproof that it would require negative energy in some areas of the local\nspacetime." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah. And if we had negative energy and negative mass, we'd probably be \ngoing backwards in Time anyway.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCE0A60.7060106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-14T04:51:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sundial with \"multitudinous faces\"?", "in_reply_to": "<434110.29999.qm@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/13/2011 2:26 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson\nThere are numerous relativity-compatible physics models that seem to allow for\ntime travel" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except the law that says there's no negative mass.\n\nI just made that law up, but sometimes the way these things work is that they" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If and when that come to pass, there will be slightly fewer methods of \ntime travel that don't violate known laws. This number may recover as \nfurther new discoveries are made." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-05-16T11:15:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fantasy Masterworks #12: Gene Wolfe, Sword and Citadel", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure if anyone has posted:\n\nhttp://sffmasterworks.blogspot.com/\n\nScurries through in six and a half thousand words, ending\n\n\"I know I did not touch upon everything and that some of my \ninterpretations certainly can be challenged. Nonetheless, a work like this \ndeserves nothing less than honest people arguing over matters of \ninterpretation, no?\"\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD15663.8020704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-16T16:52:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fantasy Masterworks #12: Gene Wolfe, Sword and Citadel", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/16/2011 6:15 AM, David Duffy wrote:\nI'm not sure if anyone has posted:\n\nhttp://sffmasterworks.blogspot.com/\n\nScurries through in six and a half thousand words, ending\n\n\"I know I did not touch upon everything and that some of my\ninterpretations certainly can be challenged. Nonetheless, a work like\nthis deserves nothing less than honest people arguing over matters of\ninterpretation, no?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The storyline is again resumed after yet another break in the action. \"\n\nJust a thought, has anyone ever suggested that the gaps are meant to \nrepresent missing volumes of Sev's autobiography, damaged or lost \nentirely along the way back from future history?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-05-17T00:43:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fantasy Masterworks #12: Gene Wolfe, Sword and Citadel", "in_reply_to": "<4DD15663.8020704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 16 May 2011, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJust a thought, has anyone ever suggested that the gaps are meant to \nrepresent missing volumes of Sev's autobiography, damaged or lost entirely \nalong the way back from future history?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is definitely the case for Latro.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] } ] }