{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6006", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6006, "subject": "do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "messages": 146, "voices": 18, "first": "2011-05-12T17:51:49+00:00", "last": "2011-08-08T18:50:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4DCC1E35.4040304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T17:51:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't find anything determinate on this. Does anyone else? I've missed \nthis particular question being discussed.\n\nLee thinks they are working in concert and others wonder how a flood \nwould get rid of them.\nAnalogizing with the inhumi in 'The Book of the Short Sun' and the Storm \nKing in 'An Evil Guest', I suspect that getting rid of the Megatherians \nis irrelevant to the plan for the Rise of the Heiros. They are plagues \nof opportunity. They prey on our moral weakness. Not our physical or \ntechnological weaknesses.\n\nBut can someone help me identify all the places that the Heiro-beings \ndiscuss the Megatherians?\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-12T17:58:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DCC1E35.4040304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recall several characters saying that the New Sun will kill Abaia,\nand certainly the Megas have an interest in the New Sun, which\npossibly implies that the architects of the New Sun have an interest\nas well.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 12:51 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI can't find anything determinate on this. Does anyone else? I've missed\nthis particular question being discussed.\n\nLee thinks they are working in concert and others wonder how a flood would\nget rid of them.\nAnalogizing with the inhumi in 'The Book of the Short Sun' and the Storm\nKing in 'An Evil Guest', I suspect that getting rid of the Megatherians is\nirrelevant to the plan for the Rise of the Heiros. They are plagues of\nopportunity. They prey on our moral weakness. Not our physical or\ntechnological weaknesses.\n\nBut can someone help me identify all the places that the Heiro-beings\ndiscuss the Megatherians?\n\nJ\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T17:15:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James: Lee thinks they are working in concert and others wonder how a flood \nwould get rid of them.\nAnalogizing with the inhumi in 'The Book of the Short Sun' and the Storm \nKing in 'An Evil Guest', I suspect that getting rid of the Megatherians \nis irrelevant to the plan for the Rise of the Heiros. They are plagues \nof opportunity. They prey on our moral weakness. Not our physical or \ntechnological weaknesses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWe only have a handful of Hiero-types to consider- B, F and O, Malrubius, \nTzadkiel and Apheta. I don't recall any of them mentioning the Megatherians\n(I'd want to double check Malrubius' words though). Considering the similar level of\nplaying field of these major players, the omission seems almost conspicuous\nto me. The closest I can think of is extra-terrestrial (and perhaps non-human origin)\nTyphon mentioning that he will enslave the powers in the sea.\n \nDespite the words of the Caloyer of Saltus (as Lane mentions) it *is* puzzling\nas to why a Flood would eliminate ocean-bound monstrosities. Perhaps such contradictions\nof logic are part of all religions. Of course, the fact that the New Sun will bring a \nflood is meticulously disguised, even to us readers, until the end of the series/story. \nPerhaps Wolfe is also saying that deception is a necessary part of God's Plan. Our \ndestruction may be necessary but it does us no good for us to know about it.\n \nAnyway, it is easy to see the converse- a future of global ice with frozen oceans and\natmosphere would certainly spell the end of ocean-bound monsters. Tzadkiel does\nseem to do most of the arrangement to bring a Flood to Urth. Yesod is mostly a water\nworld. We have the cryptic hints that B and F have an aquatic evolutionary origin \n(like kelpies). \n \nThere is the reference to Fomalhaut (Fish's Mouth) and so many other fishy refrences.\nThere is Marc's cryptic Wolfe note that \"Green is Urth\" (I hope I have that right) which\nI take to mean that Green is like Urth so Blue is like Ushas- flooded and dominated by\nundersea god(s) who feed on humans.\n \nApologies for recovering ground already covered in the past, but in my view in the Sun Series\nthere is a triangle of beings- humans, megatherians and hiero-types. In The Blue-Green domain\nthe triangle is represented by humans, inhumi and Neighbors. On ancient Earth, the same \ntriangle is represented by humans, demons and angels. (with an understanding that demons are\nfallen angels but also appear in human legend as pagan gods).\n \nSo I think we are meant to use this analogy to understand the relationship between Hierogrammates\nand Megatherians. It is the same relationship as that between angels and fallen angels. One group\nlives on/in and is closer to the Earth and thus has more power here. But the other group, being \ncloser to God, will ultimately prevail. One group is labeled \"evil\" the other \"good\". But God uses \nboth equally to achieve His goals.\n \nI don't agree with James that Megatherians are irrelevant to the Hiero's plan for self-reproduction.\nI think they are related sorts of beings and I don't know if they are \"really\" in cooporation or\ncompetition. We get hints of both. But I think both are necessary to launch the Hieros into the next, \nthe higher, universe whether they are working at odds or together with each other. (many have asked\nthe same questions about the relationship of God and Satan).\n \nI think the humans on Urth and Ushas, and on Blue and Green have the same relationship \nwith the other beings that humans on Earth have with angels and demons. We are the stupidest,\nweakest but most numerous elements in the triangle. We are necessary and some of us even capable of \nheroic, admirable acts. But ultimately we are too stupid to fully share in and understand the plans \nof our superiors. I see this in the relationship between Severian and B, F and O, Severian and Tzadkiel, \nHorn and The Mother/Seawrack, Horn and Krait, Horn and Jahlee, Horn and Neighbors, etc.\n \n \nOur human inferiority and stupidity in comparison with God's mightier creations is illustrated by Wolfe \nby making it so that even we human readers can never fully \"get it\". Perhaps the best wisdom Wolfe can \nhope for us is a realization that we are not the top dogs in the universe. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD2D68C.2080103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T20:11:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James:\nLee thinks they are working in concert and others wonder how a flood\nwould get rid of them.\nAnalogizing with the inhumi in 'The Book of the Short Sun' and the Storm\nKing in 'An Evil Guest', I suspect that getting rid of the Megatherians\nis irrelevant to the plan for the Rise of the Heiros. They are plagues\nof opportunity. They prey on our moral weakness. Not our physical or\ntechnological weaknesses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee:\nWe only have a handful of Hiero-types to consider- B, F and O, Malrubius,\nTzadkiel and Apheta. I don't recall any of them mentioning the Megatherians\n(I'd want to double check Malrubius' words though). Considering the similar level of\nplaying field of these major players, the omission seems almost conspicuous\nto me. The closest I can think of is extra-terrestrial (and perhaps non-human origin)\nTyphon mentioning that he will enslave the powers in the sea.\n\nDespite the words of the Caloyer of Saltus (as Lane mentions) it *is* puzzling\nas to why a Flood would eliminate ocean-bound monstrosities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The caloyer says in _Claw_ in his prayer to the Increate :\n\n\"You, the hero who will destroy the black worm that devours the sun; you for\nwhom the sky parts as a curtain; you whose breath shall wither vast Erebus,\nAbaia, and Scylla who wallow beneath the wave; you that equally live in the\nshell of the smallest seed in the farthest forest, the seed that hath rolled\ninto the dark where no man sees.\"\n\nAlthough it is reasonable to associate \"the hero\" with Severian, it is \nhard to imagine that he lives in the \"smallest seed in the farthest \nforest.\" He's talking about the Increate there. Why should the caloyer \nnot be talking about the Increate as the one whose \"breath\" will destroy \nthe megatherians? (I doubt they invoke this prayer anywhere but the \nCommonwealth.) Anyway, I think there are plenty of hints that Erebus \n(whose name means \"The Darkness of Tartaros\") has been long dead already \nand if he remains as a power, it is only his ghost or memory.\n\nIf the second part DOES refer to Severian, then the reference to \n\"breath\" seems to refer to his teachings (such as they are) and the \nenlightenment they will bring to mankind.\n\nIt is true that the human servants of Abaia are against the \nConcilliator, but Jolenta is one of his wives and aids him. I think it \nis More likely that Abaia:\n\n-- Sees the Heirogrammates as competing powers\n\n-- Uses the threat of the New Sun as a way to gain and control human \nagents rather than that he is worried about the flood he will bring.\n\n-- Wants to gain the Conciliator/New Sun as a follower\n\nI posit that the megatherians are \"powers\" on Urth, just as Typhon was, \nbut no more than that. Without followers they are no more significant to \nhuman history than a school of blue whales.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T20:46:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD2D68C.2080103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:11 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nThe caloyer says in _Claw_ in his prayer to the Increate :\n\n\"You, the hero who will destroy the black worm that devours the sun; you for\nwhom the sky parts as a curtain; you whose breath shall wither vast Erebus,\nAbaia, and Scylla who wallow beneath the wave; you that equally live in the\nshell of the smallest seed in the farthest forest, the seed that hath rolled\ninto the dark where no man sees.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although it is reasonable to associate \"the hero\" with Severian, it is hard\nto imagine that he lives in the \"smallest seed in the farthest forest.\" He's\ntalking about the Increate there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I believe this prayer is Trinitarian -- noting that there\nare three parts to it.\n\nThe \"hero\" is indeed Severian, standing in for the Second Person\n\nThe one whose breath will wither etc. is the First Person, the God of\nthe Old Testament associated (at least by Christians) with divine\nwrath.\n\nAnd the one who lives in the smallest seed is the Third Person, the\nHoly Spirit, whose in-dwelling is the basis of all life.\n\nAt least that's how I read it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD2FB2C.3020200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-17T22:48:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, except there are four parts to the prayer.\n\nParts 2 and 3 do seem sufficiently similar to be one Person, however, \naccording to the Wolfean principle of mythic approximation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/2011 4:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:11 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The caloyer says in _Claw_ in his prayer to the Increate :\n\n\"You, the hero who will destroy the black worm that devours the sun; you for\nwhom the sky parts as a curtain; you whose breath shall wither vast Erebus,\nAbaia, and Scylla who wallow beneath the wave; you that equally live in the\nshell of the smallest seed in the farthest forest, the seed that hath rolled\ninto the dark where no man sees.\"\nAlthough it is reasonable to associate \"the hero\" with Severian, it is hard\nto imagine that he lives in the \"smallest seed in the farthest forest.\" He's\ntalking about the Increate there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I believe this prayer is Trinitarian -- noting that there\nare three parts to it.\n\nThe \"hero\" is indeed Severian, standing in for the Second Person\n\nThe one whose breath will wither etc. is the First Person, the God of\nthe Old Testament associated (at least by Christians) with divine\nwrath.\n\nAnd the one who lives in the smallest seed is the Third Person, the\nHoly Spirit, whose in-dwelling is the basis of all life.\n\nAt least that's how I read it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD33432.7020009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-18T02:51:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/2011 12:15 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDespite the words of the Caloyer of Saltus (as Lane mentions) it *is* puzzling\nas to why a Flood would eliminate ocean-bound monstrosities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No more so than a volcanic explosion or a hurricane eliminating \nland-bound monstrosities. Water has 200 times the density of air, so you \nneed much less of a sustained change in the speed of orderly currents to \nproduce a destroying column of water than of air. And imagine how \nmammoths and plains dinosaurs would fare if they found themselves and \ntheir food web swept to the high mountain peaks and back, or even just \nflung up into the Himalayas.\n\n\"The Flood\" is what we land creatures call it, from the pelagic \nperspective it's \"The Surge\" or \"The Tsunami\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49F6D83E87E641A6A4CB89D473A33152@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-18T10:42:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD2D68C.2080103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nI posit that the megatherians are \"powers\" on Urth, just as Typhon was, \nbut no more than that. Without followers they are no more significant to \nhuman history than a school of blue whales." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First, I don't think the 'seventeen megatherians' were anything to do with \nErebus, Abaia etc. The number doesn't particularly match, but more \nimportant than that, we have a book called \"The Lives of the Seventeen \nMegatherians\" which has a somewhat historical feel to it, as if the story of \nthe megatherians (whoever they were) is long over, which is not the case of \nthe powers currently in the sea.\n\nApart from that I agree with the above. Their intention is to rule Urth. \nIf they survive they may well regroup and try to rule Ushas, but certainly \nthe impression is given that they will be somewhat out of the picture, \nperhaps indeed destroyed by the events coincident with the advewnt of the \nWhite Fountain.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD3B104.4020305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-18T11:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD33432.7020009@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/2011 10:51 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 5/17/2011 12:15 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Despite the words of the Caloyer of Saltus (as Lane mentions) it *is* \npuzzling\nas to why a Flood would eliminate ocean-bound monstrosities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No more so than a volcanic explosion or a hurricane eliminating \nland-bound monstrosities. Water has 200 times the density of air, so \nyou need much less of a sustained change in the speed of orderly \ncurrents to produce a destroying column of water than of air. And \nimagine how mammoths and plains dinosaurs would fare if they found \nthemselves and their food web swept to the high mountain peaks and \nback, or even just flung up into the Himalayas.\n\n\"The Flood\" is what we land creatures call it, from the pelagic \nperspective it's \"The Surge\" or \"The Tsunami\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't know (a) how much pressure Abaia or Erebus' bodies can \nstand---we know zero about their physiology or technology (b) whether \nthe flooding comes from plate shifting or rising water---but where else \nwould all that water come from? (c) how high the waters got---did they \noverwhelm the Tibetan plateau? (d) what the effect on nonhuman land life \nis to be---presumably (from UotNS) everything but plants, some birds, \nand simple or numerous marine life (and maybe some mountain goats) is \ngone. The planet is still very alive but empty of advanced life.\n\nWe also don't really know the mechanism of the Flood. The seas appear to \nhave risen by many meters in the area of Nessus. If it's gravitational \njerking around from the sudden proximity of a \"white hole\" then yes, you \nwould expect some significant shocks to the continental plates and vast \ntsunamis. If all human life is to be wiped out by these shocks and \ntsunamis but for a few people in a boat, then the effect on highly \nevolved undersea monsters will be catastrophic as well. And since they \nare individuals, their survival is statistically unlikely.\n\nThis is still the most reasonable result. Part of the reason it's \nconfusing is that the extent of the Flood is not revealed until UotNS." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD44CED.80108@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-18T22:49:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD3B104.4020305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/18/2011 6:44 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWe don't know (a) how much pressure Abaia or Erebus' bodies can\nstand---we know zero about their physiology or technology (b) whether\nthe flooding comes from plate shifting or rising water---but where else\nwould all that water come from? (c) how high the waters got---did they\noverwhelm the Tibetan plateau? (d) what the effect on nonhuman land life\nis to be---presumably (from UotNS) everything but plants, some birds,\nand simple or numerous marine life (and maybe some mountain goats) is\ngone. The planet is still very alive but empty of advanced life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "c) The selection of the Himalayas was just for illustration of the \nvariety of environments technically on land. I don't have any reason to \nthink that the oceans would slop up that high.\n\nb) I doubt that much plate-shifting is intended to have taken place or \nthere would have been some hint of major vulcanism that would result. \n\"New continents\" might be a subtle play on the watery connotations of \nincontinence rather than a literal prophecy. Rising water could be \ndriven by undermined and collapsing icecaps (which extend past Tierra \nDel Fuego in Sev's time), though I think that would arrive as a series \nof tsunamis rather than creeping floods or rivers topping the levies." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD456E9.8060907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-18T23:31:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD44CED.80108@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then (a) what would be the \"source\" of the water (or rather of the \nenergy that drives the water) and (b) since surely people still live in \nTibet, was the Flood universal at all?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/18/2011 6:49 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 5/18/2011 6:44 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We don't know (a) how much pressure Abaia or Erebus' bodies can\nstand---we know zero about their physiology or technology (b) whether\nthe flooding comes from plate shifting or rising water---but where else\nwould all that water come from? (c) how high the waters got---did they\noverwhelm the Tibetan plateau? (d) what the effect on nonhuman land life\nis to be---presumably (from UotNS) everything but plants, some birds,\nand simple or numerous marine life (and maybe some mountain goats) is\ngone. The planet is still very alive but empty of advanced life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "c) The selection of the Himalayas was just for illustration of the \nvariety of environments technically on land. I don't have any reason \nto think that the oceans would slop up that high.\n\nb) I doubt that much plate-shifting is intended to have taken place or \nthere would have been some hint of major vulcanism that would result. \n\"New continents\" might be a subtle play on the watery connotations of \nincontinence rather than a literal prophecy. Rising water could be \ndriven by undermined and collapsing icecaps (which extend past Tierra \nDel Fuego in Sev's time), though I think that would arrive as a series \nof tsunamis rather than creeping floods or rivers topping the levies." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-19T20:34:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD456E9.8060907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l: Actually, I believe this prayer is Trinitarian -- noting that there\nare three parts to it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI kinda like this idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James: I think it is More likely that Abaia:-- Sees the Hierogrammates as competing powers" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI tend to agree; as fallen angels might contend with angels and God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- Uses the threat of the New Sun as a way to gain and control human \nagents rather than that he is worried about the flood he will bring." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI can't see this. The promise of the New Sun is not portrayed as a threat to humans. It is portrayed as\na golden bounty, providing hope for a brighter day, greener plants, higher crop yields etc. Also\na means of ridding the Urth of alien powers which are highly despised. The Flood/genocide aspect of \nthe New Sun is very highly disguised in the original 4-book text and is only clearly revealed in the \nfinale of the fifth book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- Wants to gain the Conciliator/New Sun as a follower" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can only agree with this if Abaia thinks that the New Sun will actually, secretly benefit Abaia,\net al. Surely even Abaia wouldn't think he can convince the New Sun to shrug his shoulders and\nsay, \"aw, Abaia is my friend, I guess I won't bring a New Sun to destroy him\". Bringing the New Sun is \nthe essence of the Conciliator/New Sun. Abaia might know the New Sun =genocidal Flood. But nobody else \non Urth seems to (except Dr. Talos)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I posit that the megatherians are \"powers\" on Urth, just as Typhon was, but no more than that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree. But with the meaning that the angels ultimately gain the upper hand over fallen angels. I must \nwonder about the persistence of Juturna though.\n \nMy idea is that perhaps Wolfe recognizes the Bible (and other ancient texts) describes celestial, \nsupernatural events from a human-centric point of view. But that, if we were wise and perceptive \nenough, we could recognize that humans on Urth and Earth are pawns and that the game is really being\nplayed by higher powers for higher stakes than the puny things we think are important- our lives and our \nsouls.\n \nNobody likes to feel like a pawn. Perhaps, for Wolfe, human religions, including the New Sun cult, exist \nto allow humans to feel better about themselves; hiding our pawn status and deceiving us into thinking \nwe are at the center of all God's plans so we don't feel so bad when we die en masse in floods and earthquakes \nand other cataclysmic events which reflect the competition between higher beings.\n \n \nI find it difficult to follow Jeff's ideas. I wonder, which came first to Wolfe's mind when writing this story,\nthe ocean bound monstrosities or the idea of a Flood? Either way, conceiving Megatherians and a Flood to \ndestroy them just doesn't make sense to me. The Flood is a highly disguised, central theme of the story (as\nI think Short Sun reinforces). How could such a central, important theme rely on such a wimpy premise as, \n\"well, maybe there were nutient current changes\"? \n \nIf the whole story was meant to be naturalistic and without religious underpinnings, I think Wolfe would have\nmade the Megatherians as fire creatures, not water. Mother Pyrexia's and Salamanders. THEN the revelation\nthat the New Sun brings a flood would be a poignant revelation worthy of a 5 book denouement. With water \ncreatures revealed to being bested by a flood of water, I can't help but think there is a mighty deception going \non here.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-19T20:45:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nThe Flood/genocide aspect of\nthe New Sun is very highly disguised in the original 4-book text and is only clearly revealed in the\nfinale of the fifth book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nyeeeaaaaugh, not so much, if you take Dr. Talos's play at all seriously...\n\nAs for the destruction of the Megatherians: I suspect that they are\ncaught in the upheavals of the new continents that are produced in the\ndeath-writhing of the Urth and die because they are unable to support\ntheir own weight above the water. Of course this is pure speculation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD583DD.6030908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-19T20:55:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James W:\nI think it is More likely that Abaia:-- Sees the Hierogrammates as competing powers" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I tend to agree; as fallen angels might contend with angels and God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James W:\n-- Uses the threat of the New Sun as a way to gain and control human\nagents rather than that he is worried about the flood he will bring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee:\nI can't see this. The promise of the New Sun is not portrayed as a threat to humans. It is portrayed as\na golden bounty, providing hope for a brighter day, greener plants, higher crop yields etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not for *some* followers of Abaia (I extrapolate that all of them saw it \nthat way). In \"Urth of the New Sun\", Severian meets sailors--followers \nof Abaia--who oppose Severian as the one who will \"bring the New Sun and \ndestroy everything\". Severian concedes that this is a valid POV." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee:\nAlso a means of ridding the Urth of alien powers which are highly despised. The Flood/genocide\naspect of the New Sun is very highly disguised in the original 4-book text and is only clearly\nrevealed in the finale of the fifth book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was the case in the Commonwealth. It could not have been true for \nthe Ascians. I doubt it was a common sentiment in the rest of Urth where \nthe giant undersea aliens held sway (I'll avoid calling them \nmegatherians for Gerry's sake although I believe that is what they are)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James W:\n-- Wants to gain the Conciliator/New Sun as a follower\nLee:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can only agree with this if Abaia thinks that the New Sun will actually, secretly benefit Abaia,\net al.Surely even Abaia wouldn't think he can convince the New Sun to shrug his shoulders and\nsay, \"aw, Abaia is my friend, I guess I won't bring a New Sun to destroy him\". Bringing the New Sun is\nthe essence of the Conciliator/New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. That's my point. I posit that Abaia is against Severian's Hieroian \nfriends, but he is personally unconcerned about the upcoming flood. So \nif you tell your followers that the Commonwealth (allied to the \nHierogrammates) is this awful Bizarroland were they want to bring a New \nSun and destroy the world, that's a good way to get them to go to war \nwith said Commonwealth. But a power like the Concilliator is not a bad \ntool to have in your pocket --- both for his physical powers and the \nreligious significance he embodies. Even Typhon wanted that (because he \ntold Severian that if he bowed before him so would the Concilliator). \nAbaia is probably against the coming of the Hieros since they will be \npowerful and ruthless enough drive him out (assuming his is long-lived \nenough to see their rise)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia might know the New Sun =genocidal Flood. But nobody else\non Urth seems to (except Dr. Talos)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD5860C.6070001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-19T21:05:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-I didn't know to take Dr Talos' play seriously the first time I read \nTBOTNS.\n\n-That's a decent hypothesis, but it seems to require more of a global \nupheaval than seems to be the case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/19/2011 4:45 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Flood/genocide aspect of\nthe New Sun is very highly disguised in the original 4-book text and is only clearly revealed in the\nfinale of the fifth book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nyeeeaaaaugh, not so much, if you take Dr. Talos's play at all seriously...\n\nAs for the destruction of the Megatherians: I suspect that they are\ncaught in the upheavals of the new continents that are produced in the\ndeath-writhing of the Urth and die because they are unable to support\ntheir own weight above the water. Of course this is pure speculation." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-19T22:21:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Do the Hierogrammates *care* about the Megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD5860C.6070001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First, I don't think the 'seventeen megatherians' were anything to do with\nErebus, Abaia etc. ?The number doesn't particularly match, but more\nimportant than that, we have a book called \"The Lives of the Seventeen\nMegatherians\" which has a somewhat historical feel to it, as if the story of\nthe megatherians (whoever they were) is long over, which is not the case of\nthe powers currently in the sea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think alternatively it might be a work of biology dealing with the\nlives of great beasts - the smilodon, the mammoth and so on. I agree\nthat the megatherians are unlikely to be the sea-monsters, of whom I\nthink we never hear of more than four." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-19T22:34:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Do the Hierogrammates *care* about the Megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Although it is reasonable to associate \"the hero\" with Severian, it is hard\nto imagine that he lives in the \"smallest seed in the farthest forest.\" He's\ntalking about the Increate there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I believe this prayer is Trinitarian -- noting that there\nare three parts to it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The prayer certainly seems to be identifying the Conciliator with the\nIncreate,in some way - which is not straightforwardly right, but, in\nthe light of _Short Sun_ and some remarks of Wolfe's ('a form of the\nOutsider'), not wholly wrong either.\n\nLittle Severian in SOTL 21 also says that the New Sun will kill Abaia,\nand Big Severian agrees that that is part of the story, so clearly\nthere was an established tradition about this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD59EA5.5000003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-19T22:50:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Do the Hierogrammates *care* about the Megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "First, I don't think the 'seventeen megatherians' were anything to do with\nErebus, Abaia etc. The number doesn't particularly match, but more\nimportant than that, we have a book called \"The Lives of the Seventeen\nMegatherians\" which has a somewhat historical feel to it, as if the story of\nthe megatherians (whoever they were) is long over, which is not the case of\nthe powers currently in the sea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think alternatively it might be a work of biology dealing with the\nlives of great beasts - the smilodon, the mammoth and so on. I agree\nthat the megatherians are unlikely to be the sea-monsters, of whom I\nthink we never hear of more than four." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somehow I think an Ascian book is more likely to be a book of political \nhistory. Even if there are only four at Severian's Time (which is not \nrequired although I like it for reasons of theme) does not mean they \nare the only four to ever exist. There was only one Emperor in Rome at \nthe time of Suetonius, but that didn't stop him from writing a book \nentitled \"The Twelve Caesars\".\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD5D3BA.4090907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T02:36:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/19/2011 3:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI find it difficult to follow Jeff's ideas. I wonder, which came first to Wolfe's mind when writing this story,\nthe ocean bound monstrosities or the idea of a Flood? Either way, conceiving Megatherians and a Flood to\ndestroy them just doesn't make sense to me. The Flood is a highly disguised, central theme of the story (as\nI think Short Sun reinforces). How could such a central, important theme rely on such a wimpy premise as,\n\"well, maybe there were nutient current changes\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me try to serve it up in your terms: Peter is the rock on which the \nLord's house is built, right? All other ground is shifting sand? How \nthen would those fare whose presume to built not just their homes but \ntheir empires on pillars of water? The waterbourne powers outgrow their \nplaces in the world until their own skeletons can no longer support \nthem, so when all the Urth trembles with the Increate's judgment, their \nquicksilver kingdoms are the first to fall:\n\"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart \nis like wax; it is melted in the middle of my bowels.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD5D3EA.5080805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T02:37:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD456E9.8060907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/18/2011 6:31 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThen (a) what would be the \"source\" of the water (or rather of the\nenergy that drives the water) and (b) since surely people still live in\nTibet, was the Flood universal at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "b) The global cooling of Sev's time could have rendered Tibet/Nepal/etc \nan iced-over hinterland with too little oxygen even for genetic \nacclimation by \"real\" people. But I would think that some of the \nunderpeople must have survived for mythic parallel reasons, and if they \nmade it, there's no way to rule out a few humans in the mix. Of course, \nSeverian himself survives to \"contaminate\" Ushas with the sins of Urth, \nso there might as well be other Urth humans in the woodpile on that \naccount as well.\n\na) The source of energy driving the Flood would be the tides from the \nadvent of the White Fountain. The only hints we are given as to its size \nor scale is that its purpose is to renew the sun, and that Typhon \nrelates he was told the sun had dimmed by 7 parts in a thousand IIRC. \nThis could mean a lot of things depending on which scaling laws we \nchoose to interpret it the value give, from 7/1000 the mass of the sun\ndown to zero and back up to the same figure in negative mass. The \ncloseness of approach matters of course, but I can't recall if tides \nscale by the third or fourth power of distance." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD5D3F8.1050705@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T02:37:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD456E9.8060907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/18/2011 6:31 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThen (a) what would be the \"source\" of the water (or rather of the\nenergy that drives the water) and (b) since surely people still live in\nTibet, was the Flood universal at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "b) The global cooling of Sev's time could have rendered Tibet/Nepal/etc \nan iced-over hinterland with too little oxygen even for genetic \nacclimation by \"real\" people. But I would think that some of the \nunderpeople must have survived for mythic parallel reasons, and if they \nmade it, there's no way to rule out a few humans in the mix. Of course, \nSeverian himself survives to \"contaminate\" Ushas with the sins of Urth, \nso there might as well be other Urth humans in the woodpile on that \naccount as well.\n\na) The source of energy driving the Flood would be the tides from the \nadvent of the White Fountain. The only hints we are given as to its size \nor scale is that its purpose is to renew the sun, and that Typhon \nrelates he was told the sun had dimmed by 7 parts in a thousand IIRC. \nThis could mean a lot of things depending on which scaling laws we \nchoose to interpret it the value give, from 7/1000 the mass of the sun\ndown to zero and back up to the same figure in negative mass. The \ncloseness of approach matters of course, but I can't recall if tides \nscale by the inverse third or fourth power of distance." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD65146.80409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-20T11:32:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD5D3EA.5080805@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/19/2011 10:37 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 5/18/2011 6:31 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then (a) what would be the \"source\" of the water (or rather of the\nenergy that drives the water) and (b) since surely people still live in\nTibet, was the Flood universal at all?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b) The global cooling of Sev's time could have rendered \nTibet/Nepal/etc an iced-over hinterland with too little oxygen even \nfor genetic acclimation by \"real\" people. But I would think that some \nof the underpeople must have survived for mythic parallel reasons, and \nif they made it, there's no way to rule out a few humans in the mix. \nOf course, Severian himself survives to \"contaminate\" Ushas with the \nsins of Urth, so there might as well be other Urth humans in the \nwoodpile on that account as well.\n\na) The source of energy driving the Flood would be the tides from the \nadvent of the White Fountain. The only hints we are given as to its \nsize or scale is that its purpose is to renew the sun, and that \nTyphon relates he was told the sun had dimmed by 7 parts in a thousand \nIIRC. This could mean a lot of things depending on which scaling laws \nwe choose to interpret it the value give, from 7/1000 the mass of the sun\ndown to zero and back up to the same figure in negative mass. The \ncloseness of approach matters of course, but I can't recall if tides \nscale by the third or fourth power of distance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course---the tides themselves! In that case, there is no way any but \nthe oldest mountains could be overwhelmed, but I think you're \nright---there is enough evidence in TBOTNS to believe that even in the \nCommonwealth very few people had permanent settlements among mountains." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-20T13:31:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD5D3EA.5080805@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/18/2011 6:31 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then (a) what would be the \"source\" of the water (or rather of the\nenergy that drives the water) and (b) since surely people still live in\nTibet, was the Flood universal at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is the basis for saying the flood is universal? It is not predicted to \nbe such in Dr. Talos's play - he says in fact that new continents will rise \nfrom the sea. The old Autarch says the Ascians will survive the advent of \nthe White Fountain better than the Commonwealth. And there obviously isn't \nenough water to drown the continents anyway unless they are all flattened \nsomehow to the same altitude." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b) The global cooling of Sev's time could have rendered Tibet/Nepal/etc an \niced-over hinterland with too little oxygen even for genetic acclimation \nby \"real\" people. But I would think that some of the underpeople must have \nsurvived for mythic parallel reasons, and if they made it, there's no way \nto rule out a few humans in the mix. Of course, Severian himself survives \nto \"contaminate\" Ushas with the sins of Urth, so there might as well be \nother Urth humans in the woodpile on that account as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there must be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a) The source of energy driving the Flood would be the tides from the \nadvent of the White Fountain. The only hints we are given as to its size \nor scale is that its purpose is to renew the sun, and that Typhon relates \nhe was told the sun had dimmed by 7 parts in a thousand IIRC. This could \nmean a lot of things depending on which scaling laws we choose to \ninterpret it the value give, from 7/1000 the mass of the sun\ndown to zero and back up to the same figure in negative mass. The \ncloseness of approach matters of course, but I can't recall if tides scale \nby the third or fourth power of distance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Either way, it doesn't really make much sense in terms of known physics. \nGravitational radiation is not strong, and there is no obvious source of it \nexcept from the centre of the Sun, where perhaps the black and white holes \nwill orbit each other for a time before merging. But the frequency will be \nhigh and will couple poorly to geophysical systems, even if it would be \nstrong enough. (Gravitational radiation is so weak that nobody has managed \nto detect it directly from any source yet, although there is indirect \nevidence for it in certain pulsars.)\n\nOf course, we don't know how the White Fountain was transported, and we must \nassume it was slowed down within the solar system, and maybe whatever means \naccomplished this created gravitational radiation or some other effect which \ndisrupted Urth.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T13:51:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Do the Hierogrammates *care* about the Megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nSomehow I think an Ascian book is more likely to be a book of political\nhistory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it an Ascian book? The author's name is given as Blaithmaic -\napparently a saint's name, so presumably a Commonwealth citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nWhat is the basis for saying the flood is universal? ?It is not predicted to\nbe such in Dr. Talos's play - he says in fact that new continents will rise\nfrom the sea. ?The old Autarch says the Ascians will survive the advent of\nthe White Fountain better than the Commonwealth. ?And there obviously isn't\nenough water to drown the continents anyway unless they are all flattened\nsomehow to the same altitude." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the main evidence of effective universality is that\nBaldanders, when asked 'Who will survive?' says 'Those on ships,\npossibly. Those whose ships are in the air or in the void, certainly'.\nThis suggests that not many people will survive on land.\n\nIt doesn't rule out the new continents, nor does it mean that some\nmountain tops won't continue to stick out, since they are probably\nuninhabited anyway. It's also compatible with the Ascians adapting\nbetter, if they have better ships and planes (though I'm not sure\nwhether the Autarch had a clear idea of what the effect of the flood\nwould be. That he had some idea that there was going to be a cataclysm\nof some kind is suggested by the line 'Many will seek to flee by this\npath if the pelagic argosy sights land'.) Certainly I don't think only\nthe people Severian meets survived." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD67AAA.908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T14:28:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Do the Hierogrammates *care* about the Megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (19-05-2011 23:34):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Little Severian in SOTL 21 also says that the New Sun will kill Abaia,\nand Big Severian agrees that that is part of the story, so clearly\nthere was an established tradition about this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And of course anything that is common knowledge won't, as a rule, make its \nway to us." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T15:18:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD67AAA.908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I don't think the 'seventeen megatherians' were anything to do with Erebus, \nAbaia etc. The number doesn't particularly match, but more important than that, we have \na book called \"The Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians\" which has a somewhat historical \nfeel to it, as if the story of the megatherians (whoever they were) is long over." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTo go with Gerry's scenario I'd have to also accept that the number of the \"Group of 17\"\nis a coincidence. Also that Cadroe of the 17 Stones, the black bean story etc. are \nunrelated. And that Wolfe labelling Abaia as \"Great Beast\" has nothing to do with the\nliteral translation of Megatherian. I'm disinclined to do all that. Moreover, RttW suggests\nthe sea monsters were well established in Severian's boyhood and I'm inclined to think their\ngrowth required something close to the 1000 year post-Typhon history of Urth. \n \nI'll go out on a limb and suggest seven megatherians are named, Abaia, Erebus, Scylla, Arioch,\nOuroboros, Jurupari and Amphisboena. Did I forget any? Maybe the other 10 are unnamed. Or maybe\nthey are Juturna and her nine sisters. 100% speculation for fun on my part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I posit that Abaia is against Severian's Hieroian friends, but he is personally \nunconcerned about the upcoming flood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI like this line of thought. The New Sun's actions will allow the creation and ascension of\nthe angelic Hierogrammates who will displace the demonic Megatherians. But, ironically, the\ncreation and production of angels requires the genocide of Urth's humanity while the maintenance \nof the demon slave-masters would involve the salvation of Urth's humanity. (as Andrew mentions)\n \nTzadkiel tells Severian that his is a race of pawns. I take the metaphor at two levels.\nSuperficially, Tzadkiel is referring to the uni-directional ability of humans to move through \ntime. And I love the implied chess analogy that Severian is a pawn who arrives at the end of\nthe chessboard (universe) and returns to the board as a higher piece with multi-directional \ntime-travel abilities.\n \nBut surely Tzadkiel also implies that, as pawns, humans are the most numerous and expendable \npieces in the game they are playing. Of course sometimes the game CAN hinge on the actions of a\npawn. But not usually. \n \nThe chess analogy implies there is an opposing side (who but megatherians?), with their own pawns, \nwhom the Hierogrammates must defeat to achieve success. As the Hierogrammates are (presumably) closer \nto the Increate than Megatherians, given their angelic form, we are not surprised that they prevail \nin the end, as ordained. So, one way or another, perhaps by Jeff's geological mechanisms or perhaps\nvia something else, the dark side has been checkmated by the light side and the coming of the New Sun.\n \n \nI find this chess analogy to be a satisfying model for what is happening above the human drama in \nBotNS. We pawns have our intricate stories to tell, even if we are not really so cosmically important\nas we think.\n \n \np.s. James, I think the actions of Juturna (perhaps Typhon, perhaps Hethor) and the words of Master \nAsh leave little doubt that Abaia, et al. are, in fact, trying to gain control of the New Sun. I didn't \nmean to imply otherwise. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9D4C16F63FA741FB8F9E31EBC50A92E0@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-20T18:01:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Do the Hierogrammates *care* about the Megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is the basis for saying the flood is universal? It is not predicted \nto\nbe such in Dr. Talos's play - he says in fact that new continents will \nrise\nfrom the sea. The old Autarch says the Ascians will survive the advent \nof\nthe White Fountain better than the Commonwealth. And there obviously \nisn't\nenough water to drown the continents anyway unless they are all \nflattened\nsomehow to the same altitude." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the main evidence of effective universality is that\nBaldanders, when asked 'Who will survive?' says 'Those on ships,\npossibly. Those whose ships are in the air or in the void, certainly'.\nThis suggests that not many people will survive on land." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, that certainly suggests it - though might Baldanders be referring only \nto people in particular parts of the world?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn't rule out the new continents, nor does it mean that some\nmountain tops won't continue to stick out, since they are probably\nuninhabited anyway. It's also compatible with the Ascians adapting\nbetter, if they have better ships and planes (though I'm not sure\nwhether the Autarch had a clear idea of what the effect of the flood\nwould be. That he had some idea that there was going to be a cataclysm\nof some kind is suggested by the line 'Many will seek to flee by this\npath if the pelagic argosy sights land'.) Certainly I don't think only\nthe people Severian meets survived." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the phrase referred to a possible invasion of the Commonwealth by \nships of the undersea monsters. (By the way didn't somebody say they saw a \nmysterious ship travelling up Gyoll? It might be such a ship.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-20T18:44:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think the 'seventeen megatherians' were anything to do with \nErebus,\nAbaia etc. The number doesn't particularly match, but more important than \nthat, we have\na book called \"The Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians\" which has a \nsomewhat historical\nfeel to it, as if the story of the megatherians (whoever they were) is \nlong over." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To go with Gerry's scenario I'd have to also accept that the number of the \n\"Group of 17\"\nis a coincidence. Also that Cadroe of the 17 Stones, the black bean story \netc. are\nunrelated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see this as problematic. We don;t know much about the Group of \nSeventeen, but we know where they live, or lived:\n\"Where the Group of Seventeen sit, there final justice is done.\"\n[trans.]\"He went to the capital and complained of the way he had been \ntreated.\"\nSo, they weren't sea monsters - they lived on land (and presumably were \nhuman). They also make statements, which the sea monsters aren't usually \nprone to. And also, IIRC, only one particular sea monster controls Ascia.\n\nCadroe of the 17 Stones is someone who comes to fight at the Sanguinary \nFields. Not a sea monster, obviously. And there seems no reasonable \nassociation with the Group of Seventeen. What kind of relationship do you \nenvisage for Cadroe?\n\nAnd when were the beans ever enumerated? All we know is that they were \ndescribed as a 'handful'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that Wolfe labelling Abaia as \"Great Beast\" has nothing to do with the\nliteral translation of Megatherian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Megatherian = a large extinct ground sloth. Doesn't tell us much IMO. And \nsurely any gigantic evil-intentioned sea monster might reasonably be called \n\"Great Beast\". While I don't see him being called \"Ground Sloth\"!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm disinclined to do all that. Moreover, RttW suggests\nthe sea monsters were well established in Severian's boyhood and I'm \ninclined to think their\ngrowth required something close to the 1000 year post-Typhon history of \nUrth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. But surely this again suggests that Cadroe and the Group of \nSeventeen have nothing to do with them?\n\nAlso: you haven't explained why nobody in the books refers to them as \nmegatherians any more!\n\nSo - while it is interesting that the number 17 is used three times, the \ncontexts seem to be quite different (the megatherians *might* have been the \nGroup of Seventeen, but I am inclined to doubt it). If Wolfe mreant them to \nbe identified, I think he'd have at least made it more plausible that they \nare the same kinds of people/things. And he'd have made them ALL fit, \nwhereas it's quite hard to imagine that Cadroe's stones are actually the \nGroup of Seventeen.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD6C327.5090406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T19:38:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry,\n\nI think your responses to Lee's points were argumentative without \ntouching on the point he is making." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To go with Gerry's scenario I'd have to also accept that the number \nof the \"Group of 17\"\nis a coincidence. Also that Cadroe of the 17 Stones, the black bean \nstory etc. are\nunrelated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see this as problematic. We don;t know much about the Group \nof Seventeen, but we know where they live, or lived:\n\"Where the Group of Seventeen sit, there final justice is done.\"\n[trans.]\"He went to the capital and complained of the way he had been \ntreated.\"\nSo, they weren't sea monsters - they lived on land (and presumably \nwere human). They also make statements, which the sea monsters aren't \nusually prone to. And also, IIRC, only one particular sea monster \ncontrols Ascia.\nCadroe of the 17 Stones is someone who comes to fight at the \nSanguinary Fields. Not a sea monster, obviously. And there seems no \nreasonable association with the Group of Seventeen. What kind of \nrelationship do you envisage for Cadroe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The point is: Why are there 17? Why did the Ascians choose to have 17 \nmembers of their leadership council? Why 17 stones? Lee proposed a \nunified origin for the number 17 being significant to Urthlings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And that Wolfe labelling Abaia as \"Great Beast\" has nothing to do \nwith the\nliteral translation of Megatherian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Megatherian = a large extinct ground sloth. Doesn't tell us much \nIMO. And surely any gigantic evil-intentioned sea monster might \nreasonably be called \"Great Beast\". While I don't see him being \ncalled \"Ground Sloth\"!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"megathere\" means literally \"great [as in giant] beast [especially \nwild]\". It's association with a giant ground sloth is incidental just as \n\"onegar's\" relation to horses is incidental.\nhttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/megathere" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Moreover, RttW suggests\nthe sea monsters were well established in Severian's boyhood and I'm \ninclined to think their\ngrowth required something close to the 1000 year post-Typhon history \nof Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. But surely this again suggests that Cadroe and the Group of \nSeventeen have nothing to do with them?\nAlso: you haven't explained why nobody in the books refers to them as \nmegatherians any more!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "? You mean no one besides the Ascians, right?\nWho else do you think fits the designation of Giant Beast? It's fine to \nsay that that the term could *not* refer to Abaia and Co. (might refer \nto some entirely unidentified company), but what reason would you have \nfor actively disbelieving it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So - while it is interesting that the number 17 is used three times, \nthe contexts seem to be quite different (the megatherians *might* have \nbeen the Group of Seventeen, but I am inclined to doubt it). If Wolfe \nmreant them to be identified, I think he'd have at least made it more \nplausible that they are the same kinds of people/things. And he'd \nhave made them ALL fit, whereas it's quite hard to imagine that \nCadroe's stones are actually the Group of Seventeen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This belies every thing we know about many many vague references in the \nBook of the New Sun. Why at this point you think Wolfe should be \nexpected to make any particular reference clear, detailed, and \nenumerated, I can' imagine.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<739F78CA72D146D3A00DD739B28BE9BC@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-20T20:23:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD6C327.5090406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry,\n\nI think your responses to Lee's points were argumentative without touching \non the point he is making." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't agree - see my last paragraph. I am not dismissing the idea of a \nconnection from the start - just arguing that there should be some \nindication of what sort of connection there might be, if one is truly \nintended." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cadroe of the 17 Stones is someone who comes to fight at the Sanguinary \nFields. Not a sea monster, obviously. And there seems no reasonable \nassociation with the Group of Seventeen. What kind of relationship do \nyou envisage for Cadroe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The point is: Why are there 17? Why did the Ascians choose to have 17 \nmembers of their leadership council? Why 17 stones? Lee proposed a unified \norigin for the number 17 being significant to Urthlings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you are saying that the connection is that the number itself is \nsignificant? That Cadroe would style himself as he does simply in order to \nrender himself fearsome by using the dreaded number? And the Group of \nSeventeen might have picked that number, in order to be better feared or \nloved, or as some sort of symbol? (Like a Christian religious order might \nuse the number twelve, after the apostles.)\n\nIf so, I'd expect Wolfe to have somebody mention that to Severian, unless \nSeverian himself tells us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also: you haven't explained why nobody in the books refers to them as \nmegatherians any more!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? You mean no one besides the Ascians, right?\nWho else do you think fits the designation of Giant Beast? It's fine to \nsay that that the term could *not* refer to Abaia and Co. (might refer to \nsome entirely unidentified company), but what reason would you have for \nactively disbelieving it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure of the passage you are referring to. But it's not really a \nterribly strange thing to call Abaia - and unlike the megatherians, the \nreference is singular, right? However, it *still* doesn't have anything \nlike the force of calling Abaia a \"megatherian\", which is still a different \nword, even if it's root meaning (though not its actual meaning) could be \ntranslated as Great Beast (or Big Monster, or many other things).\n\nHowever in the Commonwealth, presumably the source of the book about the \nlives of the seventeen megatherians, nobody ever seems to call the sea \nmonsters by that name. And there don't seem to be seventeen of them, though \nof course we cannot rule it out.\n\nAnd again, surely the title \"Lives of\" suggests they are dead at the time of \nwriting?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So - while it is interesting that the number 17 is used three times, the \ncontexts seem to be quite different (the megatherians *might* have been \nthe Group of Seventeen, but I am inclined to doubt it). If Wolfe mreant \nthem to be identified, I think he'd have at least made it more plausible \nthat they are the same kinds of people/things. And he'd have made them \nALL fit, whereas it's quite hard to imagine that Cadroe's stones are \nactually the Group of Seventeen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This belies every thing we know about many many vague references in the \nBook of the New Sun. Why at this point you think Wolfe should be expected \nto make any particular reference clear, detailed, and enumerated, I can' \nimagine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I strongly disagree here. Of course the reason I can disagree is that I \nsimply don't recognise many of the so called \"vague references\" as being \nreferences at all, so the average vagueness of references I recognise as \nsuch is much less.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<535089.18349.qm@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T20:34:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD6C327.5090406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \n\nGerry,\n\nI think your responses to Lee's points were argumentative without touching on \nthe point he is making." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite different from my impression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "To go with Gerry's scenario I'd have to also accept that the number of the \n\"Group of 17\"\nis a coincidence. Also that Cadroe of the 17 Stones, the black bean story \netc. are\nunrelated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see this as problematic. We don;t know much about the Group of \nSeventeen, but we know where they live, or lived:\n\"Where the Group of Seventeen sit, there final justice is done.\"\n[trans.]\"He went to the capital and complained of the way he had been \ntreated.\"\nSo, they weren't sea monsters - they lived on land (and presumably were \nhuman). They also make statements, which the sea monsters aren't usually prone \nto. And also, IIRC, only one particular sea monster controls Ascia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My favorite speculation--I forget who came up with it--is that the seventeen \nmegatherians are the seventeen beastly people who founded the government of \nAscia. The \"Group of Seventeen\" would refer to them or to the?\"present\" group \nthat rules Ascia, maybe having the same number by tradition. As the Ascians are \nthe \"slaves of Abaia\" (if I remember correctly), maybe they took or were given \nthe name \"megatherians\" because Abaia is a \"great beast\". \n\n\nIf we're crediting Wolfe with significance in every detail, then he uses \"ther\" \nin the names of mammals. Thus Abaia would be a megather, not a megatherian. \n\"Megatherian\" could well be an adherent of the Great Beast Abaia, though.\n\nAs Gerry pointed out, the idea that?Blaithmaic's megatherians are Erebus & Co. \nruns into the question of what kind of lives they have that someone could write \nabout and how?Blaithmaic could claim to know them. ?B.'s title also suggests \nthat those lives are over; \"Life of So-and-So\" is usually about a dead person. \nThese points are no problem if the megatherians are the founders of Ascia.\n\nIncidentally, here's a post by Robert Borski mentioning Michael Andre-Driussi \nspeculated that Wolfe chose 17 for the Group because the Politburo typically had \n17 members. (I'm AWB, or I'd just refer to LU.)\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0024/0090.shtml\n\nI suspect you and?Lee will agree with much more in it than I do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cadroe of the 17 Stones is someone who comes to fight at the Sanguinary \nFields. Not a sea monster, obviously. And there seems no reasonable association \nwith the Group of Seventeen. What kind of relationship do you envisage for \nCadroe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The point is: Why are there 17? Why did the Ascians choose to have 17 members \nof their leadership council?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't know that they chose that number. The Romans didn't choose to be ruled \nby triumvirates--groups of three leaders gained power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why 17 stones?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because of the 17 Houses of the Cycle? :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee proposed a unified origin for the number 17 being significant to \nUrthlings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But not one in which Cadroe's demesne?is any kind of evidence for one \nexplanation or another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And that Wolfe labelling Abaia as \"Great Beast\" has nothing to do with the\nliteral translation of Megatherian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Megatherian = a large extinct ground sloth. Doesn't tell us much IMO. And \nsurely any gigantic evil-intentioned sea monster might reasonably be called \n\"Great Beast\". While I don't see him being called \"Ground Sloth\"!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"megathere\" means literally \"great [as in giant] beast [especially wild]\". It's \nassociation with a giant ground sloth is incidental just as \"onegar's\" relation \nto horses is incidental.\nhttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/megathere" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that \"megatherian\" is supposed to be connected with some kind of great \nbeast, but not ground sloths.\n\nWhen I first read Blaithmaic's title, I thought it was the life histories of \n17?huge animal species--baluchithers, arsinoithers, etc. That was before people \nhere pointed out that they had the same number as the rulers of Ascia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Moreover, RttW suggests\nthe sea monsters were well established in Severian's boyhood and I'm \ninclined to think their\ngrowth required something close to the 1000 year post-Typhon history of \nUrth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree. But surely this again suggests that Cadroe and the Group of \nSeventeen have nothing to do with them?\nAlso: you haven't explained why nobody in the books refers to them as \nmegatherians any more!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? You mean no one besides the Ascians, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Ascians call the sea monsters megatherians?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who else do you think fits the designation of Giant Beast? It's fine to say \nthat that the term could *not* refer to Abaia and Co. (might refer to some \nentirely unidentified company), but what reason would you have for actively \ndisbelieving it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What reason would you have for feeling certain it's true?\n\nI like the speculation that the megatherians are the Ascian Founding Parents, \nbut I wouldn't use the word to refer to them as if it were a fact that I \nexpected everyone to recognize. I think the speculation that the megatherians \nare Abaia and the rest is less plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So - while it is interesting that the number 17 is used three times, the \ncontexts seem to be quite different (the megatherians *might* have been the \nGroup of Seventeen, but I am inclined to doubt it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Wolfe mreant them to be identified, I think he'd have at least made it \nmore plausible that they are the same kinds of people/things. And he'd have \nmade them ALL fit, whereas it's quite hard to imagine that Cadroe's stones are \nactually the Group of Seventeen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This belies every thing we know about many many vague references in the Book of \nthe New Sun. Why at this point you think Wolfe should be expected to make any \nparticular reference clear, detailed, and enumerated, I can' imagine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now this I agree with to some extent, though it ignores Gerry's excellent point \nabout Cadroe's stones.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T20:40:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<535089.18349.qm@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nMy favorite speculation--I forget who came up with it--is that the seventeen\nmegatherians are the seventeen beastly people who founded the government of\nAscia. The \"Group of Seventeen\" would refer to them or to the?\"present\" group\nthat rules Ascia, maybe having the same number by tradition. As the Ascians are\nthe \"slaves of Abaia\" (if I remember correctly), maybe they took or were given\nthe name \"megatherians\" because Abaia is a \"great beast\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. My favorite speculation is a bit different -- the Group\nof Seventeen\nrules the Ascians on behalf of the Megatherians, and one is \"possessed\" by\neach of them." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<885521.34789.qm@web114720.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T20:56:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD5D3F8.1050705@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson jwilson at io.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a) The source of energy driving the Flood would be the tides from the advent of \nthe White Fountain. The only hints we are given as to its size or scale is that \nits purpose? is to renew the sun, and that Typhon relates he was told the sun \nhad dimmed by 7 parts in a thousand IIRC. This could mean a lot of things \ndepending on which scaling laws we choose to interpret it the value give, from \n7/1000 the mass of the sun\ndown to zero and back up to the same figure in negative mass. The closeness of \napproach matters of course, but I can't recall if tides scale by the inverse \nthird or fourth power of distance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Third, though since as you say we'd only be guessing at so much else, it hardly \nmatters.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD6EBE4.5000407@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-20T22:32:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<535089.18349.qm@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James wrote:\nGerry, I think your responses to Lee's points were argumentative without touching on\nthe point he is making." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nJerry:\nQuite different from my impression." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was this that sort of irked me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry:\nMegatherian = a large extinct ground sloth. Doesn't tell us much\nIMO. And surely any gigantic evil-intentioned sea monster might\nreasonably be called \"Great Beast\". While I don't see him being\ncalled \"Ground Sloth\"!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So should we assume that \"The Lives of the 17 Megatherians\" refers to 17 \nvery famous giant sloths?\n\nHere's the deal:\n1) Abaia is called \"Great Beast\"\n2) Megatherian means \"of the great beast(s)\" or \"like great beast(s)\"\n3) \"Megatherian\" is not a \"different word\". It is the same term in a \ndifferent language.\n\nTo me, it seems to be not even much of a puzzle that the 17 Megatherians \nare names for the powerful giant aliens that do rule and/or have been \nruling Urth.\n\nThe other options are that megatherians refers to a line of human rulers \nthat have ruled under Abaia's authority or a line of human rulers that \nhave fashioned themselves as being like Abaia or all the undersea \npowers. But the various occurrence of '17' in Ascia and in the \nCommonwealth simply has to be related. And I think we have enough \ninformation to put the pieces together:\n\nThere are 17 recognized \"Great Beasts\" who are ruling or have ruled \nUrth. The term \"Casdroe of 17 Stones\" originates from a time when the \n17 alien powers came to Urth and were actively fighting over territory. \nAscia's Group of Seventeen was put together with those Great Beasts in \nmind. Either the founders originally recognized and even worshipped all \nof them or, as Dan'l suggests, each of the original members represented \nan alien power (not necessarily 'possessed' them). Now, apparently, \nAscia is wholly dominated by Abaia and Erebus (or perhaps only Erebus's \nmemory). When the Ascians say \"Where the Group of Seventeen sit, there \nfinal justice is done\" that refers to a human council.\n\nWhy would people NOT write a history of the alien powers that have \ncontrolled and influenced life on Urth for millenia? And if you write a \nhistory of the activities of a sentient life, then that is a biography \n(\"The Life of\").\n\nI think you really have to understand the literature Severian encounters \nas having been culled and translated from ancient literature by persons \ngreatly separated in time, location, and culture with often very little \nknowledge of each other. That you or I would not call an inquiry into \nthe history of a giant sentient sea creature a biography is irrelevant. \nWolfe is twisting our expectations of language to give the sense of the \neons before Severian's birth.\n\nI've tried to argue this before in the case of The Story of Frog. I \nthink it is really key. Some guy (somewhere along the line in the Asian \nsubcontinient) is researching the story of Frog (Ymir) and says \"Look, \nthe story of the Ymir (king = raja = frog) is the same as this other old \nstory of 'Romulus' that I found. They just use different names. His own \nstory doesn't mention Raja's mother's name so he uses Romulus's \"Rhea \nSilvia\". He has two names now for Raja's father, so he calls him \n\"Mars-Typhon\" just as the Greeks and the Romans used to combine the \nnames of foreign gods with their own when they considered them \nequivalent. Later, another translator performs some speculative \nphilology and translates the parents names as \"Bird of the Woods\" and \n\"Spring Wind\". \"Raja\" gets named Frog. And with that designation, a new \nwholly different translator says \"Look! this old story 'The Jungle Book' \nis actually a mythologized tale of the life this fellow \"Frog\".\n\nAnyway, so it seems to me.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD700AE.5070300@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T00:00:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2011 8:31 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nOf course, we don't know how the White Fountain was transported, and we\nmust assume it was slowed down within the solar system, and maybe\nwhatever means accomplished this created gravitational radiation or some\nother effect which disrupted Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean by undetectable gravitational radiation; the \nsun and the moon have gravitation, and they make very detectable tides \nupon the earth. The mass that anchors the throat of the White Fountain \nwormhole would do the same as it arrives in the solar system, increasing \nas it sweeps toward Urth, peaking with the Flood at its closest \napproach, then decreasing and merging with the solar tides as it takes \nup residence in the sun (making it become the New Sun).\n\nIf you mean the arrival of mass-energy from Yesod through the wormhole \nwould make waves as the increased gravitation from the increase of mass \nspreads outward at the speed of light, yes, those would be fairly small \ndisruptions per unit time, but they are not what I was talking about \nearlier." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1F698569E5404ADCA4F6D5CB26C2C47B@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-21T01:46:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD700AE.5070300@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/20/2011 8:31 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, we don't know how the White Fountain was transported, and we\nmust assume it was slowed down within the solar system, and maybe\nwhatever means accomplished this created gravitational radiation or some\nother effect which disrupted Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean by undetectable gravitational radiation; the \nsun and the moon have gravitation, and they make very detectable tides \nupon the earth. The mass that anchors the throat of the White Fountain \nwormhole would do the same as it arrives in the solar system, increasing \nas it sweeps toward Urth, peaking with the Flood at its closest approach, \nthen decreasing and merging with the solar tides as it takes up residence \nin the sun (making it become the New Sun)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have my copy of UotNS to hand, but I remember stuff about bells \nringing etc. The gravitational effect of a flyby from a massive object \nwould not set bells to ringing. So I thought of gravitational radiation, \nwhich is a different thing. As light and radio waves etc. are to \nelectrostatics, so gravitational radiation is to gravity. The radiation \nconsists of propagating disturbances in the field associated with \nacceleration of charge or mass, whereas the static effects are constant \nforces that are observed when charges move slowly, or not at all. For \nvarious reasons, gravitostatic forces are very obvious to us in the everyday \nworld, but gravitomagnetic effects not at all - whereas with the \nelectromagnetic force, electromagnetism is the more obvious effect, but \nelectrostatic effects are also readily discernable. (The term \ngravitomagnetism has nothing directly to do with ordinary magnetism, which \nis electromagnetism. It is the gravitational effect corresponding to \nelectromagnetism. Gravitational waves and 'frame dragging' are examples of \ngravitomagnetism in action.)\n\nThe trouble with simple gravity (gravitostatics) is this: why make a close \napproach to Urth? The White Fountain cannot be a large proportion of the \nSun's mass.or it would disrupt Urth's orbit too much. If an object less \nmassive than the Sun were moved to the Sun on the far side of Urth's orbit, \nor at a large angle to the plane of Urth's orbit, it would create no \ndisastrous tides at all! Unless the purposive squishing of Urth is \nintended, the effects must come from something other than simple \ngravitational attraction.\n\nI'm not sure there's much to read into this though. At the end of the day \nWolfe wanted a dramatic and catastrophic effect. Current physics does not \nreally justify it - for me the best solution is some unknown technology \nrelated to the transport of the White Fountain, which results in the \nemission of strong gravitational waves as it deccelerates near the end of \nits journey. But even these have problems because of poor coupling - by \nwhich I mean that the frequency that rings bells is too high to be easily \nabsorbed by oceans.\n\nI would suggest some effect caused by the irruption of the White Fountain \ninto Briah, but I think there is evidence that it travels across normal \nspace to the Sun, and has been in Briah-space for some considerable time, as \nthe source of Severian's negentropic powers. So instead I suggest \ndecelleration, which will certainly be needed if it has travelled many light \nyears in a chiliad or two.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD71D91.6010700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-21T02:04:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD6EBE4.5000407@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2011 6:32 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nTo me, it seems to be not even much of a puzzle that the 17 \nMegatherians are names for the powerful giant aliens that do rule \nand/or have been ruling Urth.\n\nThe other options are that megatherians refers to a line of human \nrulers that have ruled under Abaia's authority or a line of human \nrulers that have fashioned themselves as being like Abaia or all the \nundersea powers. But the various occurrence of '17' in Ascia and in \nthe Commonwealth simply has to be related. And I think we have enough \ninformation to put the pieces together:\n\n...\n\nAnyway, so it seems to me.\n\nJ" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could \"17\" not have its own meaning as a number? It's several types of \nprime, and perhaps more to the point, it is a number that is not a \ntraditional Magic Number: 3, 7, 9, 12, etc. It is a number that makes a \ngreat very cool fragment of knowledge that may be part of a lost whole: \nit is dramatic and mysterious.\n\nGiven the multifarious mythologies Wolfe is mixing up in TBOTNS, there \nare many numbers he would want to avoid using. 17 may simply be the \nanti-magic-number. It's not susceptible to the usual approaches to \neschatological numerology.\n\nHowever, this can't explain why he used it three times---why not the \nGroup of Nineteen?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-21T02:27:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD6EBE4.5000407@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nJames wrote:\nGerry, I think your responses to Lee's points were argumentative without \ntouching on\nthe point he is making." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Jerry:\nQuite different from my impression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it was this that sort of irked me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry:\nMegatherian = a large extinct ground sloth. Doesn't tell us much\nIMO. And surely any gigantic evil-intentioned sea monster might\nreasonably be called \"Great Beast\". While I don't see him being\ncalled \"Ground Sloth\"!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So should we assume that \"The Lives of the 17 Megatherians\" refers to 17 \nvery famous giant sloths?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay... but my other points were all pretty cogent!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's the deal:\n1) Abaia is called \"Great Beast\"\n2) Megatherian means \"of the great beast(s)\" or \"like great beast(s)\"\n3) \"Megatherian\" is not a \"different word\". It is the same term in a \ndifferent language." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can't really identify them so exactly. No one term or word means just \none thing, so you simply can't have the same connection as if it were the \nsame word in the same language. Even with very simple words like 'black' \nand 'noir' only the simplest meaning is exactly the same. With a compound \nwords that refers to some attributes of a certain entity... they are not the \nsame at all. You can postulate a connection, but it can be *nowhere* near \nas strong as if Abaia were referred to anywhere as a megatherian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me, it seems to be not even much of a puzzle that the 17 Megatherians \nare names for the powerful giant aliens that do rule and/or have been \nruling Urth.\n\nThe other options are that megatherians refers to a line of human rulers \nthat have ruled under Abaia's authority or a line of human rulers that \nhave fashioned themselves as being like Abaia or all the undersea powers. \nBut the various occurrence of '17' in Ascia and in the Commonwealth simply \nhas to be related. And I think we have enough information to put the \npieces together:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Come on... an ancient library in an ancient world has a history of the \nseventeen megatherians. There are lots of options! They might have been \nmusicians of the last and largest heavy metal band. They might have been a \ncult consciously modelling themselves on huge ground sloths. They might \nhave been rulers of some unknown polity. Even in our cycle, there was one \nreasonably well-known individual who referred to himself as 'The Great \nBeast'.\n\nThe various '17's are odd, I agree. But the problem is, they certainly \ncan't all be the same thing, and they do not have obvious connections \neither." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are 17 recognized \"Great Beasts\" who are ruling or have ruled Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. There's no evidence from the book title that they ruled Urth, but \nit's possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The term \"Casdroe of 17 Stones\" originates from a time when the 17 alien \npowers came to Urth and were actively fighting over territory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't buy this at all. Casdoe is an ordinary name (one of the few \nrepeated names in the texts I think). The cognomen 'of the seventeen \nstones' sounds much more like the name of an individual rather than a family \nsurname. And Casdoe is apparently young enough to fight with an avern. \nSeriously, I find it a great stretch to make a connection here. Even if we \nsuppose your theory is true, how could the name arise? One thought is that \nthere was some kind of conference between the monsters to decide the \nterritory of each monster after they conquered the Urthlings, and syymbolic \nstones were somehow involved, and Casdoe's family came from the place where \nthe stones were - but even this fails. The monsters never ruled the \nCommonwealth - and if they had a conference it would be in the ocean depths!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ascia's Group of Seventeen was put together with those Great Beasts in \nmind. Either the founders originally recognized and even worshipped all of \nthem or, as Dan'l suggests, each of the original members represented an \nalien power (not necessarily 'possessed' them). Now, apparently, Ascia is \nwholly dominated by Abaia and Erebus (or perhaps only Erebus's memory). \nWhen the Ascians say \"Where the Group of Seventeen sit, there final \njustice is done\" that refers to a human council." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, this depends on (1) there being exactly seventeen sea monsters, and \n(2) their joint - seventeenfold - rule of Ascia. The first is possible but \nunsupported by the text. The second is in some contradiction of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would people NOT write a history of the alien powers that have \ncontrolled and influenced life on Urth for millenia? And if you write a \nhistory of the activities of a sentient life, then that is a biography \n(\"The Life of\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm okay with that as a reasonable possibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you really have to understand the literature Severian encounters \nas having been culled and translated from ancient literature by persons \ngreatly separated in time, location, and culture with often very little \nknowledge of each other. That you or I would not call an inquiry into the \nhistory of a giant sentient sea creature a biography is irrelevant. Wolfe \nis twisting our expectations of language to give the sense of the eons \nbefore Severian's birth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm okay with this too. It is an ancient history, and it could just as \neasily have been about sea monsters as rock stars. The thing is, though, \npeople know about the sea monsters. But they don't ever call them \nmegatherians, not in the Commonwealth anyway. One may somewhere else be \ncalled a similar thing in another language." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've tried to argue this before in the case of The Story of Frog. I think \nit is really key. Some guy (somewhere along the line in the Asian \nsubcontinient) is researching the story of Frog (Ymir) and says \"Look, \nthe story of the Ymir (king = raja = frog) is the same as this other old \nstory of 'Romulus' that I found. They just use different names. His own \nstory doesn't mention Raja's mother's name so he uses Romulus's \"Rhea \nSilvia\". He has two names now for Raja's father, so he calls him \n\"Mars-Typhon\" just as the Greeks and the Romans used to combine the names \nof foreign gods with their own when they considered them equivalent. \nLater, another translator performs some speculative philology and \ntranslates the parents names as \"Bird of the Woods\" and \"Spring Wind\". \n\"Raja\" gets named Frog. And with that designation, a new wholly different \ntranslator says \"Look! this old story 'The Jungle Book' is actually a \nmythologized tale of the life this fellow \"Frog\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But when you propose that something like this was intentionally designed \ninto the story, don't you need to have some criterion for detecting false \npositives? I mean, in principle one can make infinitely many random flights \nof fancy based on any text, but not all of them can have been intended, and \neven if unintended meanings may sometimes be better than the intended, we \nmust impose some criteria or there is no point in art at all - we might as \nwell listen to white noise and see what patterns we create in our heads from \nit...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD74568.2040606@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T04:54:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn:\nIt is an ancient history, and it could just as easily have been about \nsea monsters as rock stars. The thing is, though, people know about \nthe sea monsters. But they don't ever call them megatherians, not in \nthe Commonwealth anyway. One may somewhere else be called a similar \nthing in another language." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. In the Commonwealth they call them \"great beasts\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've tried to argue this before in the case of The Story of Frog. \n[...]Ymar (king = raja = frog)[...]\"Mars-Typhon\"[...]\"Spring Wind\".[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But when you propose that something like this was intentionally \ndesigned into the story, don't you need to have some criterion for \ndetecting false positives? I mean, in principle one can make \ninfinitely many random flights of fancy based on any text, but not all \nof them can have been intended, and even if unintended meanings may \nsometimes be better than the intended, we must impose some criteria or \nthere is no point in art at all - we might as well listen to white \nnoise and see what patterns we create in our heads from it..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um...It's tougher than recognizing the Silver Surfer as Jesus or the \nSoviet Union in 'Animal Farm', but not that terribly hard after \"Urth of \nthe New Sun\". As I said before, seeing \"Spring Wind\" as associated with \nTyphon (who makes his appearance just after Severian includes the story) \nwas obvious. Anyone, then, trying to put together a timeline of \nCommonwealth rulers has Ymar the Just and his association with the \nTorturers handy in SotT. So once the connection between the word 'frog' \nand 'ymar' is identified, well, there it is. \"White noise\" would be if \nthis original story with obviously twisted names is just so much random \nclutter.\n\nObviously, ambiguity is built into Wolfe's novels. There's no false \npositive test. I'm pretty comfortable that I'm right about this. Maybe I \nshould get serious about locating Fish.\n\nJ.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<630092.30979.qm@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T05:07:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD6EBE4.5000407@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's the deal:\n1) Abaia is called \"Great Beast\"\n2) Megatherian means \"of the great beast(s)\" or \"like great beast(s)\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or, in particular, followers or even worshipers of the great beast(s)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) \"Megatherian\" is not a \"different word\". It is the same term in a different \nlanguage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost the same term. \"Great beast\" isn't quite the same as your definitions, \nwhich I agree with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me, it seems to be not even much of a puzzle that the 17 Megatherians are \nnames for the powerful giant aliens that do rule and/or have been ruling Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me it seems like one speculation, and not the most likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other options are that megatherians refers to a line of human rulers that \nhave ruled under Abaia's authority or a line of human rulers that have \nfashioned themselves as being like Abaia or all the undersea powers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there an objection to those options?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the various occurrence of '17' in Ascia and in the Commonwealth simply has \nto be related." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They don't, though I'd say there's a good chance that they are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I think we have enough information to put the pieces together:\n\nThere are 17 recognized \"Great Beasts\" who are ruling or have ruled Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Part of Urth? And what makes you say they're ruling?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The term \"Casdroe" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(I too mix up \"Casdoe\" and \"Cadroe\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of 17 Stones\" originates from a time when the 17 alien powers came to Urth and \nwere actively fighting over territory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see where you get that idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ascia's Group of Seventeen was put together with those Great Beasts in mind. \nEither the founders originally recognized and even worshipped all of them or, \nas Dan'l suggests, each of the original members represented an alien power (not \nnecessarily 'possessed' them). Now, apparently, Ascia is wholly dominated by \nAbaia and Erebus (or perhaps only Erebus's memory). When the Ascians say \"Where \nthe Group of Seventeen sit, there final justice is done\" that refers to a human \ncouncil.\n\nWhy would people NOT write a history of the alien powers that have controlled \nand influenced life on Urth for millenia?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because they have no material? It seems quite possible that people know very \nlittle of those undersea powers' lives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if you write a history of the activities of a sentient life, then that is \na biography (\"The Life of\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Usually a biography called \"The Life of\" is written when the person's whole life \nis known, from beginning to end. An example is Suetonius' /Lives of the Twelve \nCaesars/, the title that may have inspired /Lives of the Seventeen \nMegatherians/. (By the way, that comparison favors your suggestion that the \nmegatherians could have been a \"line\" of rulers over my suggestion that they \nwere a \"group\" of contemporary rulers and yours that they were contemporaneous \nmonsters--but I don't think it's conclusive.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you really have to understand the literature Severian encounters as \nhaving been culled and translated from ancient literature by persons greatly \nseparated in time, location, and culture with often very little knowledge of \neach other. That you or I would not call an inquiry into the history of a giant \nsentient sea creature a biography is irrelevant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's that I wouldn't call a biography of a living being a \"Life\".\n\nIt's not an insuperable objection. Maybe Ultan only gave part of the title, and \nthe full one is /Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians from Sprouting to the \nPresent Day/. Maybe, as you say, Blaithmaic's culture differed from ours and \nthe ancient Romans' in this way.\n\nAs I see it, all that your arguments prove is that your version is \nself-consistent and explains everything. I agree aside from Cadroe, though I \nthink there are minor objections. But I also think the idea that the 17 \nmegatherians were human rulers of Ascia is self-consistent and explains \neverything aside from Cadroe, and I don't see any objections. At this point, I \nthink they're both speculations, and we can have our favorite, but I don't see \nhow we can say one is right and the other is wrong. And maybe there are other \nexplanations as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is twisting our expectations of language to give the sense of the eons \nbefore Severian's birth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless he's using our expectations to communicate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've tried to argue this before in the case of The Story of Frog. I think it \nis really key. Some guy (somewhere along the line in the Asian subcontinient) \nis researching the story of Frog (Ymir) and says \"Look, the story of the Ymir \n(king = raja = frog) is the same as this other old story of 'Romulus' that I \nfound. They just use different names. His own story doesn't mention Raja's \nmother's name so he uses Romulus's \"Rhea Silvia\". He has two names now for \nRaja's father, so he calls him \"Mars-Typhon\" just as the Greeks and the Romans \nused to combine the names of foreign gods with their own when they considered \nthem equivalent. Later, another translator performs some speculative philology \nand translates the parents names as \"Bird of the Woods\" and \"Spring Wind\". \n\"Raja\" gets named Frog. And with that designation, a new wholly different \ntranslator says \"Look! this old story 'The Jungle Book' is actually a \nmythologized tale of the life this fellow \"Frog\".\n\nAnyway, so it seems to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of it seems possible to me, but I suspect that whichever of those Wolfe had \nin mind, they were more playing with words than an attempt to create a story of \nscholarship that readers could reconstruct.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD74F67.8000504@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T05:36:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<630092.30979.qm@web114707.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The other options are that megatherians refers to a line of human rulers that\nhave ruled under Abaia's authority or a line of human rulers that have\nfashioned themselves as being like Abaia or all the undersea powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there an objection to those options?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but I get that its aesthetic. It's just that it still leaves open \nthe question \"Why 17?\" \"Who did they rule?\" We at least know something \nof monstrous undersea rulers. A reference to a some unknown rulers who \nare vaguely related to one of the giant beasts or all of them strikes me \nas random. Some people prefer that. I don't. Like the carefully laid \nstructures in this novel that have been identified or are glimpsed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And I think we have enough information to put the pieces together:\n\nThere are 17 recognized \"Great Beasts\" who are ruling or have ruled Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Part of Urth? And what makes you say they're ruling?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their various territories. They rule as the Storm King rules in 'An Evil \nGuest'. And Abaia has an army." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would people NOT write a history of the alien powers that have controlled\nand influenced life on Urth for millenia?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because they have no material? It seems quite possible that people know very\nlittle of those undersea powers' lives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's unlikely. The Ascians don't *have* to follow Abaia. They \nchoose to (or originally chose to) for rational reasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And if you write a history of the activities of a sentient life, then that is\na biography (\"The Life of\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Usually a biography called \"The Life of\" is written when the person's whole life\nis known, from beginning to end. An example is Suetonius' /Lives of the Twelve\nCaesars/, the title that may have inspired /Lives of the Seventeen\nMegatherians/. (By the way, that comparison favors your suggestion that the\nmegatherians could have been a \"line\" of rulers over my suggestion that they\nwere a \"group\" of contemporary rulers and yours that they were contemporaneous\nmonsters--but I don't think it's conclusive.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Biography\" means literally \"written life\". Many people produce multiple \nsuch volumes before they die.\nOf course, some of the great beasts might be dead already. I certainly \nthink one is at least." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD7B022.6050909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T12:29:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<1F698569E5404ADCA4F6D5CB26C2C47B@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/20/2011 8:46 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI'm not sure there's much to read into this though. At the end of the\nday Wolfe wanted a dramatic and catastrophic effect. Current physics\ndoes not really justify it - for me the best solution is some unknown\ntechnology related to the transport of the White Fountain, which results\nin the emission of strong gravitational waves as it deccelerates near\nthe end of its journey. But even these have problems because of poor\ncoupling - by which I mean that the frequency that rings bells is too\nhigh to be easily absorbed by oceans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI am working from what seems to be the scenario best supported by the \ntextev and criticism that says the general scheme of the BOTNS is a \ncombination of older SF tropes \"updated\" by the physics and popular \nscience of the late 1970s then tarted up in fantastic drag. That being, \none or more black holes in the sun, siphoning off matter and energy \nthrough Einstein-Rosen bridge wormholes to Abaddon, while the White \nFountain is similarly a white hole delivering matter and energy siphoned \nfrom Yesod via an artificial (as all massive objects in Yesod are) black \nhole.\n\tThis comes in at an angle that shakes up Urth and creates a Flood \nbecause it inherits that from _WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE_ and \"Born of the \nSun\" and other world-shaking astro-apocalyptic SF, as well as fulfilling \nthe the mythic deluge parallels, and it advances the agenda of the \nYesodis, who would not bother with such an undertaking simply to prolong \nthe state of affairs on Urth, but instead required a new start for human \ncivilization in order to have an additional chance of re-evolving the \nvanished Hieros that begat them.\n\tAnd it turns out that the bells are jingling because they are sewn to a \ncurtain that is being disturbed by Severian and the assassin; they are \nbeing rung by the White Fountain, but by the figurative instrument of \nits personification rather than its gravity ripples." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD7BB07.80800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-21T13:15:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD7B022.6050909@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, yes, and yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/21/2011 8:29 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 5/20/2011 8:46 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure there's much to read into this though. At the end of the\nday Wolfe wanted a dramatic and catastrophic effect. Current physics\ndoes not really justify it - for me the best solution is some unknown\ntechnology related to the transport of the White Fountain, which results\nin the emission of strong gravitational waves as it deccelerates near\nthe end of its journey. But even these have problems because of poor\ncoupling - by which I mean that the frequency that rings bells is too\nhigh to be easily absorbed by oceans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I am working from what seems to be the scenario best supported by \nthe textev and criticism that says the general scheme of the BOTNS is \na combination of older SF tropes \"updated\" by the physics and popular \nscience of the late 1970s then tarted up in fantastic drag. That \nbeing, one or more black holes in the sun, siphoning off matter and \nenergy through Einstein-Rosen bridge wormholes to Abaddon, while the \nWhite Fountain is similarly a white hole delivering matter and energy \nsiphoned from Yesod via an artificial (as all massive objects in Yesod \nare) black hole.\n This comes in at an angle that shakes up Urth and creates a Flood \nbecause it inherits that from _WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE_ and \"Born of the \nSun\" and other world-shaking astro-apocalyptic SF, as well as \nfulfilling the the mythic deluge parallels, and it advances the agenda \nof the Yesodis, who would not bother with such an undertaking simply \nto prolong the state of affairs on Urth, but instead required a new \nstart for human civilization in order to have an additional chance of \nre-evolving the vanished Hieros that begat them.\n And it turns out that the bells are jingling because they are sewn \nto a curtain that is being disturbed by Severian and the assassin; \nthey are being rung by the White Fountain, but by the figurative \ninstrument of its personification rather than its gravity ripples." } ] }, { "message_id": "<351750.3295.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T23:37:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD7BB07.80800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Sergei Soloviev " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I noticed (already at Nabokov's list) that people have a tendency to identify\nas much things as possible, with slightest hint as a proof. I don't think\nthat there is enough evidence that 17 megatherians and the beasts living in \nthe depths\nare the same creatures. To me, it seems curious that the number 17 could\nreplace other \"magic numbers\" (3, 7, 12... ) of our times. Maybe this was\nthe intention of Wolfe - to show that even this may evolve. Look how much\nplaces etc. are like \"Seven...\", \"Three...\" nowadays. They are not identical!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Other possibilities for 17 (in addition to the typical, or minimum, number for \nthe Politburo):\n\nA tribute to /Illuminatus!/ Incidentally, that book contains another Great \nBeast, who Gerry Quinn has mentioned: Aleister Crowley.\n\nOr when Wolfe needed an arbitrary number, naturally he picked 17. So did my my \nMathematical Logic professor in about 1982. Finally someone asked him why, and \nhe explained.\n\nFirst of all, it's obvious that numbers greater than about twenty are too big to \nbe arbitrary. Second, odd numbers are clearly more arbitrary than even ones. \nOne is too singular. Three is the number of the Trinity, so it's not \narbitrary. Five is the number of fingers on the human hand and consequently the \nbasis of our number system. Seven and eleven are naturals in craps. Nine is \nthree squared. Thirteen is an unlucky number and the number of the original \nAmerican colonies. Fifteen is a multiple of both three and five. And nineteen \nis really too close to twenty.\n\nI seem to remember having the feeling I'd heard that before, so it could have \nbeen folklore that Wolfe encountered somewhere.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T23:44:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<351750.3295.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I think your responses to Lee's points were argumentative without \ntouching on the point he is making." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is in Gerry's nature and I think I can accept that. Harping on the \"giant\nsloth\" bit was an error (the correct term for that creature is \"megatheriam\") but \nwhat bothers me is the attempt at using it for reductio ad absurdum. To me that is \na dirty trick to play on a fellow member of the small group of passionate Wolfe fans. \nWhy not be respectful of those with whom you share such a narrow interest? But if you \ncan't you can't. I have this one cousin who...well, anyway. Regardless of his abrasive \nnature I will always consider him part of the family. Gerry also.\n \nJames I agree with your negative evidence comment. Why wasn't it Group of 19 and \nCadroe of the 13 Stones? I think WOlfe is a careful writer. If he didn't want his\nreaders to connect Megatherians with Ascians rulers and Cadroe's stones I think he \nwould have made the effort to not throw a bunch of 17's at us, assuring that this \ndiscussion would never occur. Surely he cares at least that much about us.\n \nI have always liked the suggestion that the number 17 had some reference to communism.\nThe Politburo suggestion is a good one. I've contorted the number of existing communist \nnations on earth in the 70's at 17, as another attempt to find some meaning.\n \nThe thing is, that does nothing to negate other connections. In fact I would expect \nWolfe's somewhat persistent use of that number to have a simultaneous mythological, a \npolitical and perhaps a personal significance. Even Gerry, with his insistence on \nsimplified explanations, has admitted that Wolfe often writes at multiple levels of meaning\nand understanding.\n \nAnyway, for me the connector of Cadroe's stones to the black bean (megatherian origin) story is\nthe conversation of Severian and Agilus. There, the terms \"seeds\" and \"stones\" are connected.\nThe connection between beans and seeds isn't hard to make. The overall picture it paints of \nmegatherians (and hierogrammates) is a coherent and poignant one, as I think my chess game \nanalogy earlier illustrates.\n \nFor me, it was a revelation when I learned that Wolfe didn't invent any of the terms or names he \nuses in BotNS. It would certainly diminish the story for me if I thought he was throwing a numeral\nat us over and over for no reason or as a red herring. For me, Wolfe creates his mystery not with\na bunch of false paths but by making the true path so difficult to follow.\n \n \np.s. Like David I also like the observation that the ringing of the bells is a figurative \nexpression that the New Sun person is disturbing the curtain as the New Sun celestial body\nis disturbing Urth.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD855F9.2090704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-22T00:16:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<351750.3295.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly my point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/21/2011 7:37 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Sergei Soloviev\nI noticed (already at Nabokov's list) that people have a tendency to identify\nas much things as possible, with slightest hint as a proof. I don't think\nthat there is enough evidence that 17 megatherians and the beasts living in\nthe depths\nare the same creatures. To me, it seems curious that the number 17 could\nreplace other \"magic numbers\" (3, 7, 12... ) of our times. Maybe this was\nthe intention of Wolfe - to show that even this may evolve. Look how much\nplaces etc. are like \"Seven...\", \"Three...\" nowadays. They are not identical!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other possibilities for 17 (in addition to the typical, or minimum, number for\nthe Politburo):\n\nA tribute to /Illuminatus!/ Incidentally, that book contains another Great\nBeast, who Gerry Quinn has mentioned: Aleister Crowley.\n\nOr when Wolfe needed an arbitrary number, naturally he picked 17. So did my my\nMathematical Logic professor in about 1982. Finally someone asked him why, and\nhe explained.\n\nFirst of all, it's obvious that numbers greater than about twenty are too big to\nbe arbitrary. Second, odd numbers are clearly more arbitrary than even ones.\nOne is too singular. Three is the number of the Trinity, so it's not\narbitrary. Five is the number of fingers on the human hand and consequently the\nbasis of our number system. Seven and eleven are naturals in craps. Nine is\nthree squared. Thirteen is an unlucky number and the number of the original\nAmerican colonies. Fifteen is a multiple of both three and five. And nineteen\nis really too close to twenty.\n\nI seem to remember having the feeling I'd heard that before, so it could have\nbeen folklore that Wolfe encountered somewhere.\n\nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<299575.42228.qm@web114711.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T00:52:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD74F67.8000504@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The other options are that megatherians refers to a line of human rulers \nthat\nhave ruled under Abaia's authority or a line of human rulers that have\nfashioned themselves as being like Abaia or all the undersea powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there an objection to those options?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, but I get that its aesthetic. It's just that it still leaves open the \nquestion \"Why 17?\" \"Who did they rule?\" We at least know something of monstrous \nundersea rulers. A reference to a some unknown rulers who are vaguely related \nto one of the giant beasts or all of them strikes me as random. Some people \nprefer that. I don't. Like the carefully laid structures in this novel that \nhave been identified or are glimpsed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, is there an objection to the idea that the \"megatherian\" human rulers were \nearly rulers of Ascia?\n\nWe don't know why 17, but if there are 17 sea creatures, we don't know why that \nnumber either. (Other than the reference to the Politburo in either case, or \nthe speculations in my previous post.)\n\nIt's true that the relation of the present \"Group of 17\" to these hypothetical \n17 founders is vague, but so is the relation of the present \"Group of 17\" to the \nhypothetical 17 sea creatures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And I think we have enough information to put the pieces together:\n\nThere are 17 recognized \"Great Beasts\" who are ruling or have ruled Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Part of Urth? And what makes you say they're ruling?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Their various territories. They rule as the Storm King rules in 'An Evil \nGuest'. And Abaia has an army." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, that's one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why would people NOT write a history of the alien powers that have \ncontrolled\nand influenced life on Urth for millenia?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because they have no material? It seems quite possible that people know \nvery\nlittle of those undersea powers' lives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that's unlikely. The Ascians don't *have* to follow Abaia. They choose \nto (or originally chose to) for rational reasons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. That never occurred to me. I always imagined that the Ascians \nknew no more about Abaia's life than Lovecraft's characters knew about the life \nstories of Yog-Sothoth and Nyarlathotep.\n\nSeverian tells us, as I recall, that Abaia et al. could kill all the humans in \nthe world but don't do so because they want to enslave everyone. This suggests \nthe possibility that they threatened the Ascians or just the future Ascian \nleaders, who went along. I guess you could call that \"rational reasons\". The \nCommonwealth, however, called their bluff. Or maybe the sea creatures possessed \nthe rulers of Ascia, as Dan'l suggested. I don't see any hint that the Ascians \ndecided to follow Abaia because of his impressive CV.\n\nI think we'll have to disagree about what \"Lives of\" could mean.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD8FD3A.1070509@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-22T12:10:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<299575.42228.qm@web114711.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would like to slow down the growth of one more myth - what is the \nsource of the idea\nthat the number of the memebers of Politburo was 17? First of all, the \n\"norm\" changed\nseveral times. The first one, in 1917, had, as far as I remember, 7 members.\nThen the number varied - from 8 (in 1920-es) to 25 (in 1970-es). That \nis, in the\nUSSR. In China, it varied as well, between 19 and 25. To me the expression\n\"group of 17\" has somewhat Chinese flavour - like \"gang of four\"\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Four (nowadays there is also a rock \ngroup\nwith this name).\n\nBest\n\nSergei\n\n\nLe Dimanche 22 Mai 2011 02:52 CEST, Jerry Friedman \n a ?crit:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The other options are that megatherians refers to a line of human rulers \nthat\nhave ruled under Abaia's authority or a line of human rulers that have\nfashioned themselves as being like Abaia or all the undersea powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is there an objection to those options?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, but I get that its aesthetic. It's just that it still leaves open the \nquestion \"Why 17?\" \"Who did they rule?\" We at least know something of monstrous \nundersea rulers. A reference to a some unknown rulers who are vaguely related \nto one of the giant beasts or all of them strikes me as random. Some people \nprefer that. I don't. Like the carefully laid structures in this novel that \nhave been identified or are glimpsed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, is there an objection to the idea that the \"megatherian\" human rulers were \nearly rulers of Ascia?\n\nWe don't know why 17, but if there are 17 sea creatures, we don't know why that \nnumber either. (Other than the reference to the Politburo in either case, or \nthe speculations in my previous post.)\n\nIt's true that the relation of the present \"Group of 17\" to these hypothetical \n17 founders is vague, but so is the relation of the present \"Group of 17\" to the \nhypothetical 17 sea creatures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And I think we have enough information to put the pieces together:\n\nThere are 17 recognized \"Great Beasts\" who are ruling or have ruled Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Part of Urth? And what makes you say they're ruling?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Their various territories. They rule as the Storm King rules in 'An Evil \nGuest'. And Abaia has an army." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, that's one.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why would people NOT write a history of the alien powers that have \ncontrolled\nand influenced life on Urth for millenia?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because they have no material? It seems quite possible that people know \nvery\nlittle of those undersea powers' lives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that's unlikely. The Ascians don't *have* to follow Abaia. They choose \nto (or originally chose to) for rational reasons." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting. That never occurred to me. I always imagined that the Ascians \nknew no more about Abaia's life than Lovecraft's characters knew about the life \nstories of Yog-Sothoth and Nyarlathotep.\n\nSeverian tells us, as I recall, that Abaia et al. could kill all the humans in \nthe world but don't do so because they want to enslave everyone. This suggests \nthe possibility that they threatened the Ascians or just the future Ascian \nleaders, who went along. I guess you could call that \"rational reasons\". The \nCommonwealth, however, called their bluff. Or maybe the sea creatures possessed \nthe rulers of Ascia, as Dan'l suggested. I don't see any hint that the Ascians \ndecided to follow Abaia because of his impressive CV.\n\nI think we'll have to disagree about what \"Lives of\" could mean.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD90ECE.4010607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-22T13:25:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<299575.42228.qm@web114711.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/21/2011 8:52 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI think we'll have to disagree about what \"Lives of\" could mean.\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have my own theory.\n\nI always assumed that the form of the title \"Lives of the Megatherians\" \nwas a simple imitation of Butler's \"Lives of the Saints.\" Based on this, \none would think that the Beasts are the opposite of saints in a world \neven more fallen than our own: human beings who are evil rather than \nsaintly, and who are in some sense \"exalted\" by their evil, thus \ndeserving such treatment. But the saints are not numbered. And we don't \nknow from this what evil the Beasts did except that it must have been great.\n\nUpon googling, I found that another precedent is Suetonius' \"Lives of \nthe Twelve Caesars\"---which I always knew as simply \"The Twelve \nCaesars.\" This example introduces (1) number (but a nice round \n\"complete\" and \"lucky\" number) and (2) long-past imperial status (and \neven godly status, at least since Augustus).\n\nIf \"Lives of the Megatherians\" is the kind of significant joke we expect \nfrom Wolfe, and it plays off both these titles, then the Megatherians \nmust be (a) twisted, \"unholy\" perversions of saints (b) past rulers \nknown to everyone (c) human or at least semi-human, because this is \ncommon to both books.\n\nThis last point is key: humans are evil because they choose to be; evil \nmonsters are evil simply because we say so, or because they were made \nthat way---they don't make a choice to be evil. Therefore, no \none---writer or reader---would care about the \"life\" of Cthulhu, because \nall he ever did was eat and sleep, and more knowledge of his life would \njust make him more human.\n\nMy vote is for Typhon as the sole Megatherian given a name by Wolfe. I \nbelieve the Megatherians to be otherwise lost to history the same way \nSeverian knows nothing of the Caesars or the Good Caliphs or any other \nking list from our time. I believe they are meant to indicate a long and \ndark future political history of Earth/Urth, something on the scale (and \ncontaining the horror) of the Beast of Revelations arising many times \nover without any relief from a divine being or an End Times. Perhaps \nTyphon himself was the last of these rulers.\n\nI don't see anything to connect the Beasts with Ascia or Abaia except \nthe number 17, and again I think the whole significance of \"17\" is that \nit is not \"12.\" It is the thematic opposite of 12. 12 is the \"complete\" \nnumber because it is highly divisible. 17 is \"very\" prime, i.e., highly \nindivisible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD913E0.7060704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-22T13:47:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD90ECE.4010607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I failed to complete a thought in the below. I'll answer a question with \na question:\n\nQ: Why are there 17 Megatherians and 17 Ascians in their ruling Group? \nAre they the same?\n\nA: Why are there 12 Apostles and 12 Caesars? Are they the same?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 9:25 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 5/21/2011 8:52 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think we'll have to disagree about what \"Lives of\" could mean.\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have my own theory.\n\nI always assumed that the form of the title \"Lives of the \nMegatherians\" was a simple imitation of Butler's \"Lives of the \nSaints.\" Based on this, one would think that the Beasts are the \nopposite of saints in a world even more fallen than our own: human \nbeings who are evil rather than saintly, and who are in some sense \n\"exalted\" by their evil, thus deserving such treatment. But the saints \nare not numbered. And we don't know from this what evil the Beasts did \nexcept that it must have been great.\n\nUpon googling, I found that another precedent is Suetonius' \"Lives of \nthe Twelve Caesars\"---which I always knew as simply \"The Twelve \nCaesars.\" This example introduces (1) number (but a nice round \n\"complete\" and \"lucky\" number) and (2) long-past imperial status (and \neven godly status, at least since Augustus).\n\nIf \"Lives of the Megatherians\" is the kind of significant joke we \nexpect from Wolfe, and it plays off both these titles, then the \nMegatherians must be (a) twisted, \"unholy\" perversions of saints (b) \npast rulers known to everyone (c) human or at least semi-human, \nbecause this is common to both books.\n\nThis last point is key: humans are evil because they choose to be; \nevil monsters are evil simply because we say so, or because they were \nmade that way---they don't make a choice to be evil. Therefore, no \none---writer or reader---would care about the \"life\" of Cthulhu, \nbecause all he ever did was eat and sleep, and more knowledge of his \nlife would just make him more human.\n\nMy vote is for Typhon as the sole Megatherian given a name by Wolfe. I \nbelieve the Megatherians to be otherwise lost to history the same way \nSeverian knows nothing of the Caesars or the Good Caliphs or any other \nking list from our time. I believe they are meant to indicate a long \nand dark future political history of Earth/Urth, something on the \nscale (and containing the horror) of the Beast of Revelations arising \nmany times over without any relief from a divine being or an End \nTimes. Perhaps Typhon himself was the last of these rulers.\n\nI don't see anything to connect the Beasts with Ascia or Abaia except \nthe number 17, and again I think the whole significance of \"17\" is \nthat it is not \"12.\" It is the thematic opposite of 12. 12 is the \n\"complete\" number because it is highly divisible. 17 is \"very\" prime, \ni.e., highly indivisible.\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 110522-0, 05/22/2011\nTested on: 5/22/2011 9:25:34 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<68AC8C3C67314A15A40B9FB895DD5E50@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-22T14:22:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD74568.2040606@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry Quinn:\nIt is an ancient history, and it could just as easily have been about sea \nmonsters as rock stars. The thing is, though, people know about the sea \nmonsters. But they don't ever call them megatherians, not in the \nCommonwealth anyway. One may somewhere else be called a similar thing \nin another language." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. In the Commonwealth they call them \"great beasts\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because they are great and beastly. It's one of various things they are \ncalled. They would call large wolves or something great beasts too. What \nthey do *not* say are things like \"Abaia and the other Megatherians...\" or \n\"Abaia and his sixteen brothers...\" or anything like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I've tried to argue this before in the case of The Story of Frog. \n[...]Ymar (king = raja = frog)[...]\"Mars-Typhon\"[...]\"Spring Wind\".[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But when you propose that something like this was intentionally designed \ninto the story, don't you need to have some criterion for detecting false \npositives? I mean, in principle one can make infinitely many random \nflights of fancy based on any text, but not all of them can have been \nintended, and even if unintended meanings may sometimes be better than \nthe intended, we must impose some criteria or there is no point in art at \nall - we might as well listen to white noise and see what patterns we \ncreate in our heads from it..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um...It's tougher than recognizing the Silver Surfer as Jesus or the \nSoviet Union in 'Animal Farm', but not that terribly hard after \"Urth of \nthe New Sun\". As I said before, seeing \"Spring Wind\" as associated with \nTyphon (who makes his appearance just after Severian includes the story) \nwas obvious. Anyone, then, trying to put together a timeline of \nCommonwealth rulers has Ymar the Just and his association with the \nTorturers handy in SotT. So once the connection between the word 'frog' \nand 'ymar' is identified, well, there it is. \"White noise\" would be if \nthis original story with obviously twisted names is just so much random \nclutter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I looked up your posts on the subject of Frog. To be candid, I find it \ndifficult to tease out a specific theory. Your most recent one said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Not really. But Rana works nicely for the story. It's located in a \nconstellation that was traditionally seen as a stream. And there's a \n\"Basket\" star in that constellation. As for Fish....well, the fish is \nhard. I can imagine that Frog is a translation for an alternative word for \n\"raja\": that is, *Rana*. If so arguably Frog, in this story, is Ymar. The \nfirst Autarch. ...\n But it still does not identify anyone for me in the stories that can \nbe directly associated with \"Fish\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, but IMO this isn't a strong connection. If you accept such loose \n\"connections\" you can find support for any theory whatsoever.\n\nYou've posited theories, or variations on a theory, in which Fish and Frog \nbecame Silk, Severian, Typhon, clones of Typhon, Severian's long-lost \ntwin...\n\nBut whatever about names, the content is important. When I read the story, \nI don't recognise Severian or Typhon, or Silk. Spring Wind was a great \ngeneral like Typhon, but had a few notable differences from him too. And \nthat's about the *only* halfway close correspondence I can see. Fish and \nFrog - where's the connection?\n\nThere are some interesting bits in regard to the name of Frog, incidentally. \nEarly we are told how he got his name:\n\n*********************************\nBecause they had been found in the water, the boys were named Fish and Frog\n....\n\"I shall call him Frog,\" said the she-wolf. \"For indeed the Butcher angled \nfor frogs, as you said, O my husband.\" She believed that she said this in \ncompliment to the he-wolf, because he had so readily acquiesced to her \nwishes; but the truth was that the blood of the people of the mountaintop \nbeyond Urth ran in Frog, and the names of those who bear the blood cannot be \nconcealed for long.\n\n**********************************\n\nCould be read either way... the name Frog might be significant in itself, or \nnot. The twins were never named by their mother. [The alien origins are \nmentioned... if we take certain elements of the tale literally, it seems \nplausible that Spring Wind was born on a large space station of some kind, \nor maybe Lune (\"a mountaintop beyond Urth\", and the battles were on the \nplanets and satellites of the Solar System (for if the mountaintop were not \nnear Urth, how could Urth's astrologers read the stars of that place? Of \ncourse Frog's origins are doubly alien - he is one-quarter the mysterious \nflower.]\n\nBut anyway, the story of Frog seems to have nothing particular in common \nwith the life of Ymar (what little we know of it).\n\nSo who is Frog? Quite clearly, I think, he is Romulus. There are multiple \nvery close and clear parallels within the story: the basket, the raising by \nwolves, the Sabine women, the city wall, the murdered twin brother. Almost \nas clear is the part-divine ancestry (in which I think Wolfe merged two \ncommon variations).\n\nJust like the story of the Student, it's a mash-up of ancient and more \nrecent mythology (somebody noted on some board, perhaps correctly, that the \nStudent also includes the Battle of Hampton Roads, with the Minotaur \nbecoming the Moniter), combined with added stories by Wolfe, and futuristic \ntechnological trappings. The idea is that the tales mutate and pick up \nelements of the time(s) when they are re-told.\n\nNow of course it's possible that the stories would pick up elements from the \nhistory of Typhon etc. But they could pick up elements from a thousand \nplaces, and there doesn't seem to be anything that *tells* us about Typhon. \nAt most, I think, his name - itself mutated - has been tossed in when the \nstory needed a great general. But the name aside there are inconsistencies \nregarding his life story. He doesn't seem at all the Typhon we know.\n\nAnd the story itself: is basically a mutation of the story of Romulus. Not \nof Typhon, Severian or Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Obviously, ambiguity is built into Wolfe's novels. There's no false \npositive test. I'm pretty comfortable that I'm right about this. Maybe I \nshould get serious about locating Fish." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remus, obviously.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-22T14:24:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD7B022.6050909@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/20/2011 8:46 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure there's much to read into this though. At the end of the\nday Wolfe wanted a dramatic and catastrophic effect. Current physics\ndoes not really justify it - for me the best solution is some unknown\ntechnology related to the transport of the White Fountain, which results\nin the emission of strong gravitational waves as it deccelerates near\nthe end of its journey. But even these have problems because of poor\ncoupling - by which I mean that the frequency that rings bells is too\nhigh to be easily absorbed by oceans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am working from what seems to be the scenario best supported by the \ntextev and criticism that says the general scheme of the BOTNS is a \ncombination of older SF tropes \"updated\" by the physics and popular \nscience of the late 1970s then tarted up in fantastic drag. That being, \none or more black holes in the sun, siphoning off matter and energy \nthrough Einstein-Rosen bridge wormholes to Abaddon, while the White \nFountain is similarly a white hole delivering matter and energy siphoned \nfrom Yesod via an artificial (as all massive objects in Yesod are) black \nhole.\nThis comes in at an angle that shakes up Urth and creates a Flood \nbecause it inherits that from _WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE_ and \"Born of the \nSun\" and other world-shaking astro-apocalyptic SF, as well as fulfilling \nthe the mythic deluge parallels, and it advances the agenda of the \nYesodis, who would not bother with such an undertaking simply to prolong \nthe state of affairs on Urth, but instead required a new start for human \ncivilization in order to have an additional chance of re-evolving the \nvanished Hieros that begat them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I agree. Fiction first, science second." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And it turns out that the bells are jingling because they are sewn to a \ncurtain that is being disturbed by Severian and the assassin; they are \nbeing rung by the White Fountain, but by the figurative instrument of \nits personification rather than its gravity ripples." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, I see.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<670350.36691.qm@web114720.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T15:23:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<68AC8C3C67314A15A40B9FB895DD5E50@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are some interesting bits in regard to the name of Frog, incidentally. \nEarly we are told how he got his name:\n\n*********************************\nBecause they had been found in the water, the boys were named Fish and Frog\n....\n\"I shall call him Frog,\" said the she-wolf. \"For indeed the Butcher angled for \nfrogs, as you said, O my husband.\" She believed that she said this in \ncompliment to the he-wolf, because he had so readily acquiesced to her wishes; \nbut the truth was that the blood of the people of the mountaintop beyond Urth \nran in Frog, and the names of those who bear the blood cannot be concealed for \nlong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just like the story of the Student, it's a mash-up of ancient and more recent \nmythology (somebody noted on some board, perhaps correctly, that the Student \nalso includes the Battle of Hampton Roads, with the Minotaur becoming the \nMoniter), combined with added stories by Wolfe, and futuristic technological \ntrappings. The idea is that the tales mutate and pick up elements of the \ntime(s) when they are re-told." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI trust somebody has mentioned Lovecraft's \"Shadow Over Innsmouth\", with its \n\"fish-frog\" creatures from under the ocean who mate with people and whose blood \neventually reveals itself (though I don't think their names do). They worship \nCthulhu, who's from \"the stars\", though I don't think it's clear whether the \nfish-frogs themselves are native to Earth or another planet.\n \nJames> > Obviously, ambiguity is built into Wolfe's novels. There's no false \npositive test. I'm pretty comfortable that I'm right about this. Maybe I should \nget serious about locating Fish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remus, obviously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which brings us, appropriately or not, to the Tar Baby.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD93657.6080105@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-22T16:14:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<670350.36691.qm@web114720.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are obviously also the elements of \"Jungle Book\" by Kipling, the \nstory of\n\"man cub\" Mowgli who is raised by \nwolves in the Indian jungle -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are some interesting bits in regard to the name of Frog, incidentally. \nEarly we are told how he got his name:\n\n*********************************\nBecause they had been found in the water, the boys were named Fish and Frog\n....\n\"I shall call him Frog,\" said the she-wolf. \"For indeed the Butcher angled for \nfrogs, as you said, O my husband.\" She believed that she said this in \ncompliment to the he-wolf, because he had so readily acquiesced to her wishes; \nbut the truth was that the blood of the people of the mountaintop beyond Urth \nran in Frog, and the names of those who bear the blood cannot be concealed for \nlong.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just like the story of the Student, it's a mash-up of ancient and more recent \nmythology (somebody noted on some board, perhaps correctly, that the Student \nalso includes the Battle of Hampton Roads, with the Minotaur becoming the \nMoniter), combined with added stories by Wolfe, and futuristic technological \ntrappings. The idea is that the tales mutate and pick up elements of the \ntime(s) when they are re-told.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nI trust somebody has mentioned Lovecraft's \"Shadow Over Innsmouth\", with its \n\"fish-frog\" creatures from under the ocean who mate with people and whose blood \neventually reveals itself (though I don't think their names do). They worship \nCthulhu, who's from \"the stars\", though I don't think it's clear whether the \nfish-frogs themselves are native to Earth or another planet.\n \nJames> > Obviously, ambiguity is built into Wolfe's novels. There's no false \npositive test. I'm pretty comfortable that I'm right about this. Maybe I should \nget serious about locating Fish.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remus, obviously.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which brings us, appropriately or not, to the Tar Baby.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD9412A.3090200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T17:00:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD913E0.7060704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 8:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI failed to complete a thought in the below. I'll answer a question with\na question:\n\nQ: Why are there 17 Megatherians and 17 Ascians in their ruling Group?\nAre they the same?\n\nA: Why are there 12 Apostles and 12 Caesars? Are they the same?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd pay good money to see that football game." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nathan C. Tresch", "address": "nathanctresch at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T17:06:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD913E0.7060704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, David." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 6:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI failed to complete a thought in the below. I'll answer a question with a\nquestion:\n\nQ: Why are there 17 Megatherians and 17 Ascians in their ruling Group? Are\nthey the same?\n\nA: Why are there 12 Apostles and 12 Caesars? Are they the same?\n\n\n\n\nOn 5/22/2011 9:25 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/21/2011 8:52 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think we'll have to disagree about what \"Lives of\" could mean.\nJerry Friedman\n\n I have my own theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I always assumed that the form of the title \"Lives of the Megatherians\"\nwas a simple imitation of Butler's \"Lives of the Saints.\" Based on this, one\nwould think that the Beasts are the opposite of saints in a world even more\nfallen than our own: human beings who are evil rather than saintly, and who\nare in some sense \"exalted\" by their evil, thus deserving such treatment.\nBut the saints are not numbered. And we don't know from this what evil the\nBeasts did except that it must have been great.\n\nUpon googling, I found that another precedent is Suetonius' \"Lives of the\nTwelve Caesars\"---which I always knew as simply \"The Twelve Caesars.\" This\nexample introduces (1) number (but a nice round \"complete\" and \"lucky\"\nnumber) and (2) long-past imperial status (and even godly status, at least\nsince Augustus).\n\nIf \"Lives of the Megatherians\" is the kind of significant joke we expect\nfrom Wolfe, and it plays off both these titles, then the Megatherians must\nbe (a) twisted, \"unholy\" perversions of saints (b) past rulers known to\neveryone (c) human or at least semi-human, because this is common to both\nbooks.\n\nThis last point is key: humans are evil because they choose to be; evil\nmonsters are evil simply because we say so, or because they were made that\nway---they don't make a choice to be evil. Therefore, no one---writer or\nreader---would care about the \"life\" of Cthulhu, because all he ever did was\neat and sleep, and more knowledge of his life would just make him more\nhuman.\n\nMy vote is for Typhon as the sole Megatherian given a name by Wolfe. I\nbelieve the Megatherians to be otherwise lost to history the same way\nSeverian knows nothing of the Caesars or the Good Caliphs or any other king\nlist from our time. I believe they are meant to indicate a long and dark\nfuture political history of Earth/Urth, something on the scale (and\ncontaining the horror) of the Beast of Revelations arising many times over\nwithout any relief from a divine being or an End Times. Perhaps Typhon\nhimself was the last of these rulers.\n\nI don't see anything to connect the Beasts with Ascia or Abaia except the\nnumber 17, and again I think the whole significance of \"17\" is that it is\nnot \"12.\" It is the thematic opposite of 12. 12 is the \"complete\" number\nbecause it is highly divisible. 17 is \"very\" prime, i.e., highly\nindivisible.\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 110522-0, 05/22/2011\nTested on: 5/22/2011 9:25:34 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<992116.73036.qm@web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T17:12:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Sergei Soloviev " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would like to slow down the growth of one more myth - what is the source of \nthe idea\nthat the number of the memebers of Politburo was 17? First of all, the \"norm\" \nchanged\nseveral times. The first one, in 1917, had, as far as I remember, 7 members.\nThen the number varied - from 8 (in 1920-es) to 25 (in 1970-es). That is, in \nthe\nUSSR. In China, it varied as well, between 19 and 25." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Along these lines, Michael Andre-Driussi writes in LU, \"The number seventeen \nalludes to the Soviet politburo, which typically had seventeen members (eleven \nto twelve full members and six to nine alternate members).\" So even based on \nthat, the connection of 17 to the politburo is a good deal weaker than I thought \nfrom Robert Borski's article." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me the expression\n\"group of 17\" has somewhat Chinese flavour - like \"gang of four\"\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Four (nowadays there is also a rock \ngroup\nwith this name)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Formed in 1977, says Wikipedia, and now performing again.)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T18:01:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD8FD3A.1070509@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that the number 17 being connected to the Soviet poliburo is\nprobably a myth. I've seen it repeated many times but no source is ever\ngiven.\n\nDoes anyone have a Soviet or Communist reference? If not, we should\nprobably drop it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 8:10 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI would like to slow down the growth of one more myth - what is the source\nof the idea\nthat the number of the memebers of Politburo was 17? First of all, the\n\"norm\" changed\nseveral times. The first one, in 1917, had, as far as I remember, 7\nmembers.\nThen the number varied - from 8 (in 1920-es) to 25 (in 1970-es). That is,\nin the\nUSSR. In China, it varied as well, between 19 and 25. To me the expression\n\"group of 17\" has somewhat Chinese flavour - like \"gang of four\"\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Four (nowadays there is also a rock\ngroup\nwith this name).\n\nBest\n\nSergei\n\n\nLe Dimanche 22 Mai 2011 02:52 CEST, Jerry Friedman <\njerry_friedman at yahoo.com> a “crit:\n\n\n > From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The other options are that megatherians refers to a line of human\nrulers >that\nhave ruled under Abaia's authority or a line of human rulers that\nhave\nfashioned themselves as being like Abaia or all the undersea\npowers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Is there an objection to those options”\nYeah, but I get that its aesthetic. It's just that it still leaves\nopen the >question \"Why 17?\" \"Who did they rule?\" We at least know\n something of monstrous >undersea rulers. A reference to a some unknown\nrulers who are vaguely related >to one of the giant beasts or all of them\nstrikes me as random. Some people >prefer that. I don't. Like the carefully\nlaid structures in this novel that >have been identified or are glimpsed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, is there an objection to the idea that the \"megatherian\" human\nrulers were early rulers of Ascia?\n\nWe don't know why 17, but if there are 17 sea creatures, we don't know why\nthat number either. (Other than the reference to the Politburo in either\ncase, or the speculations in my previous post.)\n\nIt's true that the relation of the present \"Group of 17\" to these\nhypothetical 17 founders is vague, but so is the relation of the present\n\"Group of 17\" to the hypothetical 17 sea creatures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And I think we have enough information to put the pieces together:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "There are 17 recognized \"Great Beasts\" who are ruling or have\n ruled Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Part of Urth? And what makes you say they're ruling?\nTheir various territories. They rule as the Storm King rules in 'An\nEvil >Guest'. And Abaia has an army." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, that's one.\n > >> Why would people NOT write a history of the alien powers that have\ncontrolled\nand influenced life on Urth for millenia?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Because they have no material? It seems quite possible that people\nknow >very\nlittle of those undersea powers' lives.\nI think that's unlikely. The Ascians don't *have* to follow Abaia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They choose >to (or originally chose to) for rational reasons.\n\nInteresting. That never occurred to me. I always imagined that the\nAscians knew no more about Abaia's life than Lovecraft's characters knew\nabout the life stories of Yog-Sothoth and Nyarlathotep.\n\nSeverian tells us, as I recall, that Abaia et al. could kill all the\nhumans in the world but don't do so because they want to enslave everyone.\n This suggests the possibility that they threatened the Ascians or just the\nfuture Ascian leaders, who went along. I guess you could call that\n\"rational reasons\". The Commonwealth, however, called their bluff. Or\nmaybe the sea creatures possessed the rulers of Ascia, as Dan'l suggested.\n I don't see any hint that the Ascians decided to follow Abaia because of\nhis impressive CV.\n\nI think we'll have to disagree about what \"Lives of\" could mean.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD95098.4030609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-22T18:06:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<992116.73036.qm@web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. I think the \"meaning\" of 17 in this case is rather \nself-contained: one communist Ruling Group is related to another, with a \ntouch of Yellow Peril thrown in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/22/2011 1:12 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Sergei Soloviev\nI would like to slow down the growth of one more myth - what is the source of\nthe idea\nthat the number of the memebers of Politburo was 17? First of all, the \"norm\"\nchanged\nseveral times. The first one, in 1917, had, as far as I remember, 7 members.\nThen the number varied - from 8 (in 1920-es) to 25 (in 1970-es). That is, in\nthe\nUSSR. In China, it varied as well, between 19 and 25." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Along these lines, Michael Andre-Driussi writes in LU, \"The number seventeen\nalludes to the Soviet politburo, which typically had seventeen members (eleven\nto twelve full members and six to nine alternate members).\" So even based on\nthat, the connection of 17 to the politburo is a good deal weaker than I thought\nfrom Robert Borski's article." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me the expression\n\"group of 17\" has somewhat Chinese flavour - like \"gang of four\"\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Four (nowadays there is also a rock\ngroup\nwith this name)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Formed in 1977, says Wikipedia, and now performing again.)\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD95388.1090306@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T18:18:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD8FD3A.1070509@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 7:10 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI would like to slow down the growth of one more myth - what is the\nsource of the idea\nthat the number of the memebers of Politburo was 17? First of all, the\n\"norm\" changed\nseveral times. The first one, in 1917, had, as far as I remember, 7\nmembers.\nThen the number varied - from 8 (in 1920-es) to 25 (in 1970-es). That\nis, in the\nUSSR." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I first saw it in the original LEXICON URTHUS. I work with some former \nSoviet residence professors, I'll try to catch one and ask." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5191281D53E64315B36B0DC9D41C7AD6@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-22T18:25:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nJames Wynn: I think your responses to Lee's points were argumentative \nwithout\ntouching on the point he is making." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is in Gerry's nature and I think I can accept that. Harping on the \n\"giant\nsloth\" bit was an error (the correct term for that creature is \n\"megatheriam\") but\nwhat bothers me is the attempt at using it for reductio ad absurdum. To me \nthat is\na dirty trick to play on a fellow member of the small group of passionate \nWolfe fans.\nWhy not be respectful of those with whom you share such a narrow interest? \nBut if you\ncan't you can't. I have this one cousin who...well, anyway. Regardless of \nhis abrasive\nnature I will always consider him part of the family. Gerry also." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would call it sarcasm rather than reductio ad absurdum. Perhaps I should \nnot have put it that way, but I was making a real point. Type 'megatherian' \ninto any online dictionary, and 'giant extinct ground sloth' is what you \nget. Even if the iconic creature is known as 'megatherium', it's family are \nthe megatherians.\n\n[By the way, I'd personally sooner be noted for occasional sarcasm rather \nthan opportunistic ad hominem sniping of the above kind.]\n\nNow it is pretty evident that Wolfe did not mean ground sloths, and probably \nthe 17 Megatherians are some line of human rulers, monsters, or humans who \nwere for some reason called 'great beasts'. It is conceivable, though I \nwill admit unlikely, that they were a line of hermits who modelled \nthemselves after ground sloths, or a heavy metal rock band (if you saw an \nannouncement \"Coming Soon, The Megatherians\" would you fear Abaia, or \near-splitting noise?). Given that the sea monsters aren't known or \nsuggested to number 17, I don't see how they can be so blithely identified \nwith them.\n\nAlso, the title simply doesn't ring true to me if that is who/what they are. \nApart from the slight connotation of historicity, \"Lives of\" is a little too \ncosy an expression to use for such monsters. Of course it can be used as in \n\"Lives of the Great Cats\" or whatever, but this is describing something that \nwould be seen as natural and normal. Nobody would write \"Life of Chulthu\", \nor \"Life of Satan\". \"History of\", maybe. It's not proof or anything like \nit, but I find it hard to believe that the sea monsters are even a strong \npossibility.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD95F7B.90103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-22T19:09:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<5191281D53E64315B36B0DC9D41C7AD6@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Basically the same point I made at 9:25 this morning.\n\nBut I would like to see (though not necessarily hear) a band called \"The \nMegatherians.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 2:25 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" \nJames Wynn: I think your responses to Lee's points were \nargumentative without\ntouching on the point he is making." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is in Gerry's nature and I think I can accept that. Harping on \nthe \"giant\nsloth\" bit was an error (the correct term for that creature is \n\"megatheriam\") but\nwhat bothers me is the attempt at using it for reductio ad absurdum. \nTo me that is\na dirty trick to play on a fellow member of the small group of \npassionate Wolfe fans.\nWhy not be respectful of those with whom you share such a narrow \ninterest? But if you\ncan't you can't. I have this one cousin who...well, anyway. \nRegardless of his abrasive\nnature I will always consider him part of the family. Gerry also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would call it sarcasm rather than reductio ad absurdum. Perhaps I \nshould not have put it that way, but I was making a real point. Type \n'megatherian' into any online dictionary, and 'giant extinct ground \nsloth' is what you get. Even if the iconic creature is known as \n'megatherium', it's family are the megatherians.\n\n[By the way, I'd personally sooner be noted for occasional sarcasm \nrather than opportunistic ad hominem sniping of the above kind.]\n\nNow it is pretty evident that Wolfe did not mean ground sloths, and \nprobably the 17 Megatherians are some line of human rulers, monsters, \nor humans who were for some reason called 'great beasts'. It is \nconceivable, though I will admit unlikely, that they were a line of \nhermits who modelled themselves after ground sloths, or a heavy metal \nrock band (if you saw an announcement \"Coming Soon, The Megatherians\" \nwould you fear Abaia, or ear-splitting noise?). Given that the sea \nmonsters aren't known or suggested to number 17, I don't see how they \ncan be so blithely identified with them.\n\nAlso, the title simply doesn't ring true to me if that is who/what \nthey are. Apart from the slight connotation of historicity, \"Lives of\" \nis a little too cosy an expression to use for such monsters. Of \ncourse it can be used as in \"Lives of the Great Cats\" or whatever, but \nthis is describing something that would be seen as natural and \nnormal. Nobody would write \"Life of Chulthu\", or \"Life of Satan\". \n\"History of\", maybe. It's not proof or anything like it, but I find \nit hard to believe that the sea monsters are even a strong possibility.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<446857.64268.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T19:41:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<5191281D53E64315B36B0DC9D41C7AD6@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now it is pretty evident that Wolfe did not mean ground sloths, and probably \nthe 17 Megatherians are some line of human rulers, monsters, or humans who were \nfor some reason called 'great beasts'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nBy the way, LU notes that there's a literal \"megathere\" in CotC, Ch. 22. Just \nfor grins, one possible connection with \"the great beast Abaia\" is that the \nmegathere has a \"deathlike sleep\"--there's Cthulhu again. Perhaps some will \nalso find significance in the spelling with a final \"e\" (contrary to my guess \nearlier), unlike the arctother, arsinoither, baluchither, and uintather. (What \nwould I do without LU?)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T19:46:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD95388.1090306@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lexicon Urthus does mention the Soviet politburo in connection with the\nGroup of 17, but Andre-Driussi doesn't cite his source." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 5/22/2011 7:10 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would like to slow down the growth of one more myth - what is the\nsource of the idea\nthat the number of the memebers of Politburo was 17? First of all, the\n\"norm\" changed\nseveral times. The first one, in 1917, had, as far as I remember, 7\nmembers.\nThen the number varied - from 8 (in 1920-es) to 25 (in 1970-es). That\nis, in the\nUSSR." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I first saw it in the original LEXICON URTHUS. I work with some former\nSoviet residence professors, I'll try to catch one and ask.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<404096.12922.qm@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T19:55:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD90ECE.4010607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have my own theory.\n\nI always assumed that the form of the title \"Lives of the Megatherians\" was a \nsimple imitation of Butler's \"Lives of the Saints.\" Based on this, one would \nthink that the Beasts are the opposite of saints in a world even more fallen \nthan our own: human beings who are evil rather than saintly, and who are in \nsome sense \"exalted\" by their evil, thus deserving such treatment. But the \nsaints are not numbered. And we don't know from this what evil the Beasts did \nexcept that it must have been great.\n\nUpon googling, I found that another precedent is Suetonius' \"Lives of the \nTwelve Caesars\"---which I always knew as simply \"The Twelve Caesars.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nWikipedia says the original title was De vita Caesarum, with no number." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see anything to connect the Beasts with Ascia or Abaia except the \nnumber 17, and again I think the whole significance of \"17\" is that it is not \n\"12.\" It is the thematic opposite of 12. 12 is the \"complete\" number because it \nis highly divisible. 17 is \"very\" prime, i.e., highly indivisible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that may be part of it, though 17 is no more prime than 13 or 19.\n\n[added later]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Q: Why are there 17 Megatherians and 17 Ascians in their ruling Group? Are they \nthe same?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A: Why are there 12 Apostles and 12 Caesars? Are they the same?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you on some points, but here I have to say there is another \nconnection that people have stressed: Severian calls Abaia a \"great beast\", \n\"megatherians\" means entities connected to the great beast(s) somehow, and \nFather Inire says the Ascians are the \"slaves of Abaia\". That makes it \nconsiderably more likely that the two 17s are connected. Also, this is fiction, \nnot history. I don't think Wolfe anticipated what significance readers would \nfind in every tiny detail, but this one seems to have a good chance of being \npurposeful.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD98E28.1030403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-22T22:28:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<404096.12922.qm@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/22/2011 3:55 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have my own theory.\n\nI always assumed that the form of the title \"Lives of the Megatherians\" was a\nsimple imitation of Butler's \"Lives of the Saints.\" Based on this, one would\nthink that the Beasts are the opposite of saints in a world even more fallen\nthan our own: human beings who are evil rather than saintly, and who are in\nsome sense \"exalted\" by their evil, thus deserving such treatment. But the\nsaints are not numbered. And we don't know from this what evil the Beasts did\nexcept that it must have been great.\n\nUpon googling, I found that another precedent is Suetonius' \"Lives of the\nTwelve Caesars\"---which I always knew as simply \"The Twelve Caesars.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nWikipedia says the original title was De vita Caesarum, with no number." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see anything to connect the Beasts with Ascia or Abaia except the\nnumber 17, and again I think the whole significance of \"17\" is that it is not\n\"12.\" It is the thematic opposite of 12. 12 is the \"complete\" number because it\nis highly divisible. 17 is \"very\" prime, i.e., highly indivisible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that may be part of it, though 17 is no more prime than 13 or 19.\n\n[added later]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depends how you look at it. There are patterns among primes that I don't \npretend to understand. But some primes may be rarer than others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Q: Why are there 17 Megatherians and 17 Ascians in their ruling Group? Are they\nthe same?\nA: Why are there 12 Apostles and 12 Caesars? Are they the same?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with you on some points, but here I have to say there is another\nconnection that people have stressed: Severian calls Abaia a \"great beast\",\n\"megatherians\" means entities connected to the great beast(s) somehow, and\nFather Inire says the Ascians are the \"slaves of Abaia\". That makes it\nconsiderably more likely that the two 17s are connected. Also, this is fiction,\nnot history. I don't think Wolfe anticipated what significance readers would\nfind in every tiny detail, but this one seems to have a good chance of being\npurposeful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree this is fiction, and that is my point. My theory is derived 100% \nfrom available books. Not history. Mine is a literary argument, not a \nhistorical one.\n\nI think the connection you describe is speculation and must remain so." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T23:40:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD98E28.1030403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: David Stockhoff\nDepends how you look at it. There are patterns among primes that I don't\npretend to understand. But some primes may be rarer than others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I might briefly offer a mathematician's perspective... :)\n\nNo single prime number is \"rarer\" than any others. (Although as numbers get\nlarger, one encounters primes more and more rarely.)\n\nI do think 17 has a significance over 13 and 19, but it's more psychological\nthan mathematical: 17 is probably the most \"generic\"-seeming number under\n20. Forget the even numbers. (They're too obvious and well-behaved.) 11 is\none more than 10, and 19 is one less than 20; these are both \"boundary\"\nnumbers. We have 13, 15 and 17 left. 13 is fraught with superstitious\nsignificance, of course, and 15 is a multiple of 5. That really leaves 17,\nthe most \"random\" or \"generic\" number under 20. Does this sound like\nnumerology? Yes, but I think it's really psychology.\n\nSimilarly, if you ask someone to pick a number from 1 to 10, they often pick\n7.\n\nThe following blog entry is relevant and interesting:\nhttp://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2007/02/is_17_the_most_random_number.php\n\n\n-Jason" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD9A471.5000007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-23T00:04:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Jason, that's helpful. Since Wolfe is no Lewis Carroll, although \nhe is a fan, I think this is enough to explain why he might have settled \non 17 as an \"answer\" to 12.\n\nI won't rule out more obscure explanations, although I will note that \nwikipedia mentions about a dozen different classes of prime numbers to \nwhich 17 belongs. I don't care about such things myself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 7:40 PM, Jason H wrote:\n From: David Stockhoff>\n\n Depends how you look at it. There are patterns among primes that I\n don't pretend to understand. But some primes may be rarer than\n others.\n\n\n\nIf I might briefly offer a mathematician's perspective... :)\n\nNo single prime number is \"rarer\" than any others. (Although as \nnumbers get larger, one encounters primes more and more rarely.)\n\nI do think 17 has a significance over 13 and 19, but it's more \npsychological than mathematical: 17 is probably the most \n\"generic\"-seeming number under 20. Forget the even numbers. (They're \ntoo obvious and well-behaved.) 11 is one more than 10, and 19 is one \nless than 20; these are both \"boundary\" numbers. We have 13, 15 and 17 \nleft. 13 is fraught with superstitious significance, of course, and 15 \nis a multiple of 5. That really leaves 17, the most \"random\" or \n\"generic\" number under 20. Does this sound like numerology? Yes, but I \nthink it's really psychology.\n\nSimilarly, if you ask someone to pick a number from 1 to 10, they \noften pick 7.\n\nThe following blog entry is relevant and interesting:\nhttp://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2007/02/is_17_the_most_random_number.php\n\n\n-Jason\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1e2ed0af-d2bc-4b4e-8fc4-d544d358ea77@email.android.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T00:35:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD9A471.5000007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "12 Caesars vs. 12 Apostles. Football match. And which football program has a Twelfth Man tradition? Wolfe's alma mater of course! We're onto something!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD9ACBC.3020309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-23T00:39:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<1e2ed0af-d2bc-4b4e-8fc4-d544d358ea77@email.android.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to be confused with the Twelfth Imam, of course ....\n\nCompletely different!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 8:35 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n12 Caesars vs. 12 Apostles. Football match. And which football program \nhas a Twelfth Man tradition? Wolfe's alma mater of course! We're onto \nsomething!\n-- \nSent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 110522-1, 05/22/2011\nTested on: 5/22/2011 8:37:09 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T02:29:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD90ECE.4010607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 22/05/2011, ?s 14:25, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the whole significance of \"17\" is that it is not \"12.\" It is the thematic opposite of 12. 12 is the \"complete\" number because it is highly divisible. 17 is \"very\" prime, i.e., highly indivisible" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+1" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T02:40:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<404096.12922.qm@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 22/05/2011, ?s 20:55, Jerry Friedman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to say there is another \nconnection that people have stressed: Severian calls Abaia a \"great beast\", \n\"megatherians\" means entities connected to the great beast(s) somehow, and \nFather Inire says the Ascians are the \"slaves of Abaia\". That makes it \nconsiderably more likely that the two 17s are connected" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The part where that argument doesn't work is where there is no evidence at all that the great beasts are 17, and in fact that looks like an impossibly large number for us to only hear about two. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD9CC75.1080209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T02:54:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<299575.42228.qm@web114711.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman:\nOkay, is there an objection to the idea that the \"megatherian\" human rulers were\nearly rulers of Ascia? We don't know why 17, but if there are 17 sea creatures, we don't know why that\nnumber either. (Other than the reference to the Politburo in either case, or\nthe speculations in my previous post.)\n\nIt's true that the relation of the present \"Group of 17\" to these hypothetical\n17 founders is vague, but so is the relation of the present \"Group of 17\" to the\nhypothetical 17 sea creatures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, my objection is this.\n\nIt seems to me we agree that the term \"megatherian\" is *related* to the \ngiant alien powers--because Abaia is called a \"Great Beast\". The only \ndoubt is whether the term refers _directly_ to the alien powers.\n\nThe \"17 stones\" and \"the Group of 17\" are enumerated by human choice. \nSomeone decided they should be that number. That leaves only the \"17 \nmegatherians\" _possibly_ NOT being humanly enumerated. So unless the \nnumber 17 is derived from some source unnamed in the book, it seems most \nlikely that the 17 Megatherians is the source of the other two.\n\nTrue, it could be that 17 Megatherians and the Group of 17 are somehow \nequivalent (getting their name from an association with the alien \npowers). But that just adds a level of complication. You have to suppose \nwhy the group of 17 got that name, how the government of the Ascians led \nto a tradition in the Commonwealth, and any additional issues of \nspeculation.\n\nOn the other hand, if one accepts that alien powers number 17 and are \ncalled Megatherians because they are \"like great beasts\", then the \nselection of the number 17 elsewhere is self-explanatory.\n\nIt is marginally easier (given the reference to Abaia as a Great Beast) \nto decide the alien powers are the Megatherians." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Part of Urth? And what makes you say they're ruling?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Their various territories. They rule as the Storm King rules in 'An Evil\nGuest'. And Abaia has an army." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, that's one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, Erebus rules pirates (or they are devoted to his memory). \nAdditionally, Cilinia was (presumably) executed for seeking to betray \nTyphon for Scylla. One presumes she did more that put posters up in her \nroom. Scylla would have had to be a credible threat.\n\nj" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD9CF21.4050102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T03:06:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<1e2ed0af-d2bc-4b4e-8fc4-d544d358ea77@email.android.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 7:35 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n12 Caesars vs. 12 Apostles. Football match. And which football program\nhas a Twelfth Man tradition? Wolfe's alma mater of course! We're onto\nsomething!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking Canadian FB rules with 12 man teams; Mt Typhon is \npractically synonymous with Montreal, after all.\n\n\np.s. My last trip to the A&M campus was very disappointing in a way; \neven the 12th man statue was a recent addition (post-1980) despite the \noriginal event occurring in 1922; practically no notable notable sights \non the campus from Wolfe's time remain." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD9D005.6010701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T03:09:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<68AC8C3C67314A15A40B9FB895DD5E50@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James:\nObviously, ambiguity is built into Wolfe's novels. There's no false \npositive test. I'm pretty comfortable that I'm right about this. \nMaybe I should get serious about locating Fish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn:\nRemus, obviously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why call Juno, Rhea Silvia, and Mars by direct cognates and call Romulus \nand Remus by Frog and Fish? There's no \"Fish\" in the \"Jungle Book\".\n\nI think it is an easy call that Ymar is Frog (ymir=king=rana=frog). I \nsuspect that Fish will be found on Tzadkiel (the shepherds). Possibly he \nwill have a name that means \"sword\".\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD9D116.3010909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T03:14:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD913E0.7060704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff:\nI'll answer a question with a question:\n\nQ: Why are there 17 Megatherians and 17 Ascians in their ruling Group? \nAre they the same?\n\nA: Why are there 12 Apostles and 12 Caesars? Are they the same?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Gospels and Suetonius are history. Their numbers were not selected \nby an author unless it was God. There's the difference.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-05-23T03:34:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD9D116.3010909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 22 May 2011, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff:\nI'll answer a question with a question:\n\nQ: Why are there 17 Megatherians and 17 Ascians in their ruling Group? Are \nthey the same?\n\nA: Why are there 12 Apostles and 12 Caesars? Are they the same?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Gospels and Suetonius are history. Their numbers were not selected by an \nauthor unless it was God. There's the difference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But one may speculate about choices by the Author, surely ;)\n\nhttp://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2006/10-01.htm" } ] }, { "message_id": "<646642.46492.qm@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T04:43:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD98E28.1030403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nNo dia 22/05/2011, ?s 20:55, Jerry Friedman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have to say there is another \nconnection that people have stressed: Severian calls Abaia a \"great beast\", " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \"megatherians\" means entities connected to the great beast(s) somehow, and \nFather Inire says the Ascians are the \"slaves of Abaia\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I keep saying that, but saying it doesn't make it true. He refers to the \nattacks from Ascia as \"Abaia's incursions\". Still, Abaia seems to rule Ascia, \nwhich is what's needed for the connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That makes it \nconsiderably more likely that the two 17s are connected" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The part where that argument doesn't work is where there is no evidence at all \nthat the great beasts are 17, and in fact that looks like an impossibly large \nnumber for us to only hear about two. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, you're rebutting other people's argument. I'm the one saying the 17 \nmegatherians might be the Group of 17.\n\nBy the way, LU says we know about four giant enemies of the New Sun, though \nArioch and Scylla are mentioned only once each." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 3:55 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\n ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have my own theory.\n\n I always assumed that the form of the title \"Lives of the Megatherians\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "was a\nsimple imitation of Butler's \"Lives of the Saints.\" Based on this, one \nwould\nthink that the Beasts are the opposite of saints in a world even more \nfallen\nthan our own: human beings who are evil rather than saintly, and who are \nin\n some sense \"exalted\" by their evil, thus deserving such treatment. But \nthe\nsaints are not numbered. And we don't know from this what evil the Beasts \ndid\nexcept that it must have been great." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Upon googling, I found that another precedent is Suetonius' \"Lives of the\nTwelve Caesars\"---which I always knew as simply \"The Twelve Caesars.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\nWikipedia says the original title was De vita Caesarum, with no number." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I don't see anything to connect the Beasts with Ascia or Abaia except \nthe\nnumber 17, and again I think the whole significance of \"17\" is that it is \nnot\n\"12.\" It is the thematic opposite of 12. 12 is the \"complete\" number \nbecause it\nis highly divisible. 17 is \"very\" prime, i.e., highly indivisible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that may be part of it, though 17 is no more prime than 13 or 19.\n\n[added later]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Depends how you look at it. There are patterns among primes that I don't \npretend to understand. But some primes may be rarer than others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI see you meant that some have rarer properties than others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, this is fiction,\nnot history. I don't think Wolfe anticipated what significance readers \nwould\nfind in every tiny detail, but this one seems to have a good chance of \nbeing\npurposeful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree this is fiction, and that is my point. My theory is derived 100% \nfrom available books. Not history. Mine is a literary argument, not a \nhistorical one.\n\nI think the connection you describe is speculation and must remain so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. However, the speculative connection I described is entirely from the \nbooks. The one you described also involves history (Butler's /Lives of the \nSaints/, Suetonius' /On the Lives of the Caesars/--or is that what you meant by \n\"available books\"?).\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<252027.25331.qm@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T04:53:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jason H \nIf I might briefly offer a mathematician's perspective... :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do think 17 has a significance over 13 and 19, but it's more psychological \nthan mathematical: 17 is probably the most \"generic\"-seeming number under 20. \nForget the even numbers. (They're too obvious and well-behaved.) 11 is one more " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "than 10, and 19 is one less than 20; these are both \"boundary\" numbers. We have " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "13, 15 and 17 left. 13 is fraught with superstitious significance, of course, \nand 15 is a multiple of 5. That really leaves 17, the most \"random\" or \"generic\" \n\nnumber under 20. Does this sound like numerology? Yes, but I think it's really \npsychology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you want to get a laugh with that, I think you have to tell it the way my \nprofessor did, ending with \"19 is too close to 20\". (Probably nobody laughed \nwhen I posted it here, but we did when he told it in class.) As psychology, \nthough, it's more interesting than I realized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Similarly, if you ask someone to pick a number from 1 to 10, they often pick 7.\n\n\nThe following blog entry is relevant and interesting:\nhttp://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2007/02/is_17_the_most_random_number.php" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And makes it more likely that Wolfe could have picked 17 \"at random\" more than \nonce. Thanks for linking to that.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA38FF.6040506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T10:37:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 23/05/2011, ?s 03:40, Ant?nio Pedro Marques escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No dia 22/05/2011, ?s 20:55, Jerry Friedman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have to say there is another\nconnection that people have stressed: Severian calls Abaia a \"great beast\",\n\"megatherians\" means entities connected to the great beast(s) somehow, and\nFather Inire says the Ascians are the \"slaves of Abaia\". That makes it\nconsiderably more likely that the two 17s are connected" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The part where that argument doesn't work is where there is no evidence at all that the great beasts are 17, and in fact that looks like an impossibly large number for us to only hear about two." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I misread you, youre not saying the great beasts are 17. So I'll advance the \npossibility that there were once 17 personalities, simultaneously or not, \nwhom the ascians came to revere and the commonwealthians to despise. The \nascians may call them the g17, or the group may have purposely named itself \nafter the 17." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA49A8.1000404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-23T11:48:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD9D116.3010909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree completely! The nice round number of Apostles was chosen by \nhuman \"editors\" and by tradition. The number 12 preceded the New \nTestament, much as significant parts of the mythology of Christ preceded \nChrist by centuries, as Wolfe is well aware.\n\nHowever, it hardly matters. Let's say that 12 has a real significance in \nour universe, so that God indeed chose 12 apostles, and Wolfe agrees.\n\nThen I posit that 17 has a real significance in Severian's universe. \nThat explains why it pops up 3 times in (to me) unrelated contexts. This \nis exactly what you'd expect if 17 was Severian's 12.\n\nThis is what you would expect if Urth was a gnostic parody of Earth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 11:14 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff:\nI'll answer a question with a question:\n\nQ: Why are there 17 Megatherians and 17 Ascians in their ruling \nGroup? Are they the same?\n\nA: Why are there 12 Apostles and 12 Caesars? Are they the same?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Gospels and Suetonius are history. Their numbers were not selected \nby an author unless it was God. There's the difference.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA4BFC.6060809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-23T11:58:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<646642.46492.qm@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/23/2011 12:43 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nDepends how you look at it. There are patterns among primes that I don't\n pretend to understand. But some primes may be rarer than others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nI see you meant that some have rarer properties than others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right---thanks for rephrasing me!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, this is fiction,not history. I don't think Wolfe anticipated what significance readers\nwould\nfind in every tiny detail, but this one seems to have a good chance of\nbeing\npurposeful.\n \n I agree this is fiction, and that is my point. My theory is derived 100%\n from available books. Not history. Mine is a literary argument, not a\n historical one.\n\n I think the connection you describe is speculation and must remain so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. However, the speculative connection I described is entirely from the\nbooks. The one you described also involves history (Butler's /Lives of the\nSaints/, Suetonius'/On the Lives of the Caesars/--or is that what you meant by\n\"available books\"?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I meant those books. I am not sure if we are misunderstanding one \nanother because you view those books as history and I do not. But \nconsider that Suetonius _chose_ the number 12. There were, of course, \nmore than 12 Roman emperors. Suetonius was writing history, but he was \nalso telling stories.\n\nAnd while I am not very familiar with Butler's book, I regard it as both \nmore and less than purely factual. The stories of the saints are real, \nbut they are unlikely to be all true." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA7989.3030600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T15:13:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA4BFC.6060809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/23/2011 6:58 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd while I am not very familiar with Butler's book, I regard it as \nboth more and less than purely factual. The stories of the saints are \nreal, but they are unlikely to be all true. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is true of all history.\nThat, I think, is a lesson we are expected to learn from Wolfe's first \nperson-narrative fiction.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-23T15:35:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD9D005.6010701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Obviously, ambiguity is built into Wolfe's novels. There's no false \npositive test. I'm pretty comfortable that I'm right about this. Maybe I \nshould get serious about locating Fish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remus, obviously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why call Juno, Rhea Silvia, and Mars by direct cognates and call Romulus \nand Remus by Frog and Fish? There's no \"Fish\" in the \"Jungle Book\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not familiar with details of the Jungle Book - are their parts of it in \nthe story?. In any case, we don't need it to identify Frog and Fish, \nbecause the story of Romulus and Remus is so very clearly identifiable that \nthere seems no reasonable alternative source (other than a different \nretelling of the same story).\n\nLook at the clear points of identity:\n* twins\n* half or quarter divine origin (more ambiguous than the others, see note 1 \nbelow)\n* mother's name: Bird of the Woods = Rhea Silvia\n* abandoned in a basket\n* raised by wolves and shepherds (slight modification, see note 2)\n* raised a motley army and demanded their heritage from their usurping great \nuncle\n* decided to found a new city\n* stole women from neighbouring tribes\n* Frog builds a trench and tells Fish it is to be the wall; Fish mocks him \nby jumping over it; Frog slays him (*exactly* the same as with Romulus and \nRemus).\n\nNote 1: Mars or Hercules was supposedly their father - some people have \nfound Mars somewhere I think, but I prefer the idea of Hercules as Spring \nWind, because of his parentage, Zeus appearing as a flower which is the sort \nof thing he did. Frog later claimed his heritage in the name of the Red \nFlower.)\n\nNote 2: Instead of having both twins raised first by wolves and later by \nshepherds, Wolfe splits them so one is raised by each.\n\nI honestly don't understand how anyone can seriously assert that this story \nis anything other than a version of Romulus and Remus! And on such flimsy \nevidence..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is an easy call that Ymar is Frog (ymir=king=rana=frog). I \nsuspect that Fish will be found on Tzadkiel (the shepherds). Possibly he \nwill have a name that means \"sword\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's just a chain of puns in a bunch of different languages. I think it's \nrandom noise that means nothing. How come Frog isn't Martin Luther King - \nthe chain is one step shorter! We don't know a lot about the life of Ymar \nthe Autarch - are there any obvious correspondences between his story and \nthat of Frog? I can't think of any, unless Ymar founded Nessus, which seems \nit would be hard to justify.\n\nIf we were completely at sea regarding who Frog is, there might be some \npoint in chasing such thin threads... but we're not! It's perfectly clear \nfom the points listed above that Frog is Romulus. Wolfe isn't even trying \nto hide it. If Wolfe has worked in clues to the deep history of early \nAutarchy, they are very subtle and they cannot involve identifying Ymar with \nFrog (there could in principle be oblique references to events somewhere in \nthe story, maybe in the space travel or war parts).\n\nWhy did he change the names of Frog and Fish, but translate Rhea Silvia with \na pun? Why not? The legends change and mutate over time; some bits fall \noff and some mutate. Maybe there's a bit of Jungle Book mixed in, a lot of \nthe chatter among the wolves comes from somewhere other than the story of \nRomulus and Remus, and it might have come from there, or another story or \nstories, or completely from Wolfe's imagination.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37261.91139.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-23T16:19:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA7989.3030600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 5/23/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, May 23, 2011, 11:13 AM\nOn 5/23/2011 6:58 AM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And while I am not very familiar with Butler's book, I\nregard it as both more and less than purely factual. The\nstories of the saints are real, but they are unlikely to be\nall true. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is true of all history.\nThat, I think, is a lesson we are expected to learn from\nWolfe's first person-narrative fiction.\n\nJ\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA8FB1.8020903@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-23T16:47:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we discuss also the method of Wolfe! And if you look at the stories \nin the\nBook of the New Sun, there is often (or always?) an old story \"updated\" \n(or modified) by the passage of time! And it shows so beautifully the \ndepth of time behind - why always try\nto find unique source? In the story of Student and his Son something \neven was lost -\nthe explanation why the black sail provokes the suicide of the Student. \nJonas knew the original\nstory (with Athens, Minotaur etc.). In the story of Fish and Frog the \ndialogues of\nWolves are taken from Jungle's book, while the story itself is \nessentially the\nstory of Romulus and Remus. Why to try to equate as much as possible, when\nthe diversity is part of the method?\n\nBest\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Obviously, ambiguity is built into Wolfe's novels. There's no false \npositive test. I'm pretty comfortable that I'm right about this. \nMaybe I should get serious about locating Fish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Remus, obviously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why call Juno, Rhea Silvia, and Mars by direct cognates and call \nRomulus and Remus by Frog and Fish? There's no \"Fish\" in the \"Jungle \nBook\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not familiar with details of the Jungle Book - are their parts of \nit in the story?. In any case, we don't need it to identify Frog and \nFish, because the story of Romulus and Remus is so very clearly \nidentifiable that there seems no reasonable alternative source (other \nthan a different retelling of the same story).\n\nLook at the clear points of identity:\n* twins\n* half or quarter divine origin (more ambiguous than the others, see \nnote 1 below)\n* mother's name: Bird of the Woods = Rhea Silvia\n* abandoned in a basket\n* raised by wolves and shepherds (slight modification, see note 2)\n* raised a motley army and demanded their heritage from their usurping \ngreat uncle\n* decided to found a new city\n* stole women from neighbouring tribes\n* Frog builds a trench and tells Fish it is to be the wall; Fish mocks \nhim by jumping over it; Frog slays him (*exactly* the same as with \nRomulus and Remus).\n\nNote 1: Mars or Hercules was supposedly their father - some people \nhave found Mars somewhere I think, but I prefer the idea of Hercules \nas Spring Wind, because of his parentage, Zeus appearing as a flower \nwhich is the sort of thing he did. Frog later claimed his heritage in \nthe name of the Red Flower.)\n\nNote 2: Instead of having both twins raised first by wolves and later \nby shepherds, Wolfe splits them so one is raised by each.\n\nI honestly don't understand how anyone can seriously assert that this \nstory is anything other than a version of Romulus and Remus! And on \nsuch flimsy evidence..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is an easy call that Ymar is Frog (ymir=king=rana=frog). I \nsuspect that Fish will be found on Tzadkiel (the shepherds). Possibly \nhe will have a name that means \"sword\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's just a chain of puns in a bunch of different languages. I \nthink it's random noise that means nothing. How come Frog isn't \nMartin Luther King - the chain is one step shorter! We don't know a \nlot about the life of Ymar the Autarch - are there any obvious \ncorrespondences between his story and that of Frog? I can't think of \nany, unless Ymar founded Nessus, which seems it would be hard to justify.\n\nIf we were completely at sea regarding who Frog is, there might be \nsome point in chasing such thin threads... but we're not! It's \nperfectly clear fom the points listed above that Frog is Romulus. \nWolfe isn't even trying to hide it. If Wolfe has worked in clues to \nthe deep history of early Autarchy, they are very subtle and they \ncannot involve identifying Ymar with Frog (there could in principle be \noblique references to events somewhere in the story, maybe in the \nspace travel or war parts).\n\nWhy did he change the names of Frog and Fish, but translate Rhea \nSilvia with a pun? Why not? The legends change and mutate over time; \nsome bits fall off and some mutate. Maybe there's a bit of Jungle \nBook mixed in, a lot of the chatter among the wolves comes from \nsomewhere other than the story of Romulus and Remus, and it might have \ncome from there, or another story or stories, or completely from \nWolfe's imagination.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:43:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA8FB1.8020903@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I'm not familiar with details of the Jungle Book - are their parts of it in \nthe story?....I honestly don't understand how anyone can seriously assert that this story \nis anything other than a version of Romulus and Remus!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nThere are. In The Jungle Book, a human baby is adopted and raised by wolves. He is called Mowgli, \nmeaning Frog (in wolf speech) due to his lack of fur. There is a council of wolves, a wise and \nsober black panther, an evil, rapacious tiger, a garrulous bear and fire referred to as \"the red \nflower\". All these elements are also found in the Tale of the Boy Called Frog.\n \nNobody is asserting the story isn't a version of Romulus and Remus. But it is clearly more than\njust that. Frog is Romulus and Mowgli and a bit of Moses and Cadmus (and perhaps others?) to boot.\nThe American Pilgrims are referenced also.\n \nFor me each one of those allusions connects to the issues of exploration and colonization and conquest \nwhich were introduced in 5HoC. It helps illuminate the backstory of the history of Urth and human\nexploration in space and previous empires, etc. urth illustrates that we can expect human behavior\nin the future of spaceship exploration of the galaxy to duplicate our behavior during the past sailing \nship exploration of the world's oceans. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDAA392.6000405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:12:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "J Wynn:\nWhy call Juno, Rhea Silvia, and Mars by direct cognates and call \nRomulus and Remus by Frog and Fish? There's no \"Fish\" in the \"Jungle \nBook\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry:\nI'm not familiar with details of the Jungle Book - are their parts of \nit in the story?. In any case, we don't need it to identify Frog and \nFish, because the story of Romulus and Remus is so very clearly \nidentifiable that there seems no reasonable alternative source (other \nthan a different retelling of the same story).\n\nLook at the clear points of identity:\n* twins\n[points of connection between Romulus and Frog]\n* Frog builds a trench and tells Fish it is to be the wall; Fish mocks \nhim by jumping over it; Frog slays him (*exactly* the same as with \nRomulus and Remus).\n\nNote 1: Mars or Hercules was supposedly their father - some people \nhave found Mars somewhere I think, but I prefer the idea of Hercules \nas Spring Wind, because of his parentage, Zeus appearing as a flower \nwhich is the sort of thing he did. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spring Wind is Hercules? You justify this with supposed comparisons to \n*Zeus* rather than Hercules? And you have a problem with flimsy evidence?\n\nMy evidence is based on the clear patterns of the way Wolfe starts \ntelling this story. Juno being called \"Early Summer\" is straight \nforward--it is just that the translator mixes up what comes from where. \nHe assumes Juno's name comes from June rather than the other way around. \nRhea Silvia is again a straightforward attempt attempt at translation. \nThe \"spring\" in Spring Wind works for \"Mars\" but does not fit the \npattern already laid down because there's no place for the \"Wind\" \ntranslation. The telling of this story has just taken a very strange \nturn, and it is about to get worse.\n\nOf course, there is nothing in Romulus' or Remus' name or story to \nsuggest calling them \"Frog\" and \"Fish\". You are arbitrarily stating that \nit's random noise because it doesn't fit your preconceived model. That \nmust be very comforting. You don't even need to feel like you know \"The \nJungle Book\" all that well to defend your analysis. My interpretations \ndon't leave me that convenient escape hatch whenever I'm cornered. I \nstarted with the assumption that Frog was a real person. Unlike you, I \ndon't just settle on the first hill that catches my eye and build \nfortifications there. I first profiled the name of the person who could \nbe Frog and then found Ymar sitting in plain sight. Based on same \npattern, I believe that there is a good chance Severian will have met \nFish on Tzadkiel (the shepherds) and his name will have a synonym or \netymology that _could_ be translated fish or a type of fish. Possibly \nhis name will mean \"sword\" or a type of sword. Naturally, if I find \nsomeone that matches what I was looking for, I will be doubly-convinced, \nbecause he fits a profile I created beforehand.\n\nOf course the Story of Frog has a lot of similarities to the Life of \nRomulus. \"East of Eden\" has a lot of similarities to Genesis. So what? \nThis is the sort of conversation I have with people who say Jesus of \nNazareth is _actually_ Dionysus or Mithras. And I think that sort of \nexegesis was on Wolfe's mind while writing this story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Frog later claimed his heritage in the name of the Red Flower.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Red Flower is a reference from \"The Jungle Books\". In the Kipling's \nstories it means \"fire\". In the Book of the New Sun, an easy \ninterpretation would be the sun itself. However, I'd be open to other \nreasonable explanations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note 2: Instead of having both twins raised first by wolves and later \nby shepherds, Wolfe splits them so one is raised by each.\nI honestly don't understand how anyone can seriously assert that this \nstory is anything other than a version of Romulus and Remus! And on \nsuch flimsy evidence..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's because you don't really know that much about the references. If \nyou were better able to recognize them, they would be quite jarring. The \nfact that it has so many similarities to the story of Romulus and Remus \nonly makes the parts that don't map so troubling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it is an easy call that Ymar is Frog (ymir=king=rana=frog). I \nsuspect that Fish will be found on Tzadkiel (the shepherds). Possibly \nhe will have a name that means \"sword\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's just a chain of puns in a bunch of different languages. I \nthink it's random noise that means nothing. How come Frog isn't \nMartin Luther King - the chain is one step shorter! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're doing it again, Gerry. I was inclined to ignore this response as \nunserious even at face-value. However (speaking as to a child), because \nMLK is not a character in the books. Ymar is. He is a child in the time \nof Typhon's reign." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We don't know a lot about the life of Ymar the Autarch - are there any \nobvious correspondences between his story and that of Frog? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Raised by wolves (Torturers)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't think of any, unless Ymar founded Nessus, which seems it would \nbe hard to justify." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? Because you think this is _merely_ Wolfe ham-fisting the story of \nRomulus for no narrative value, you think Ymar must be precisely like \nRomulus in every way? I'm getting dizzy.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1EDAF8D5FB82473A928C93810C677102@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:21:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not familiar with details of the Jungle Book - are their parts of it \nin\nthe story?....I honestly don't understand how anyone can seriously assert \nthat this story\nis anything other than a version of Romulus and Remus!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The ellipses you place there disguise a jump of twenty or thirty lines, and \na slight change of context. I am *not* disputing (as you try to insinuate) \nthe fact that parts of the story come from other sources. What I actually \nsaid was:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not familiar with details of the Jungle Book - are their parts of it \nin\nthe story?. In any case, we don't need it to identify Frog and Fish,\nbecause the story of Romulus and Remus is so very clearly identifiable \nthat\nthere seems no reasonable alternative source (other than a different\nretelling of the same story)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In other words, Romulus and Remus are the source for *Frog* and *Fish*, even \nif Jungle Book is the source for various tigers, woodcutters, bears etc. in \nparts of the story concerning other characters. In particular, Ymar the \nAutarch is surplus to requirements." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are. In The Jungle Book, a human baby is adopted and raised by \nwolves. He is called Mowgli,\nmeaning Frog (in wolf speech) due to his lack of fur. There is a council \nof wolves, a wise and\nsober black panther, an evil, rapacious tiger, a garrulous bear and fire \nreferred to as \"the red\nflower\". All these elements are also found in the Tale of the Boy Called \nFrog.\n\nNobody is asserting the story isn't a version of Romulus and Remus. But it \nis clearly more than\njust that. Frog is Romulus and Mowgli and a bit of Moses and Cadmus (and \nperhaps others?) to boot.\nThe American Pilgrims are referenced also.\n\nFor me each one of those allusions connects to the issues of exploration \nand colonization and conquest\nwhich were introduced in 5HoC. It helps illuminate the backstory of the \nhistory of Urth and human\nexploration in space and previous empires, etc. urth illustrates that we \ncan expect human behavior\nin the future of spaceship exploration of the galaxy to duplicate our \nbehavior during the past sailing\nship exploration of the world's oceans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "History in general, I would say, involving war, colonisation, and other \nmatters. Yes, Wolfe is indicating that human nature has remained much the \nsame, so that our most ancient stories, updated with futuristic trappings, \nwill seem no less psychologically realistic to our distant descendants; or \nthe distant descendants of our counterparts in Urth's cycle, anyway.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6CA26952AAB44A74B9F01FC7CF51C630@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-23T19:42:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDAA392.6000405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Note 1: Mars or Hercules was supposedly their father - some people have \nfound Mars somewhere I think, but I prefer the idea of Hercules as Spring \nWind, because of his parentage, Zeus appearing as a flower which is the \nsort of thing he did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Spring Wind is Hercules? You justify this with supposed comparisons to \n*Zeus* rather than Hercules? And you have a problem with flimsy evidence?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I looked up the story, Mars and Hercules were given (perhaps \nincorrectly) as the two main alternatives for the father of the twins, and \nHercules appealed to me because Spring Wind seemed semi rather than wholly \ndivine. It was Spring Wind's *father* who appeared as a flower - in \nHercules' case that would be Zeus. Since then, Andrew has convinced me that \nclearly it is Mars who is Spring Wind, as Mars was conceived by Juno with \nthe aid of a magic flower, and on further study I see he is a god of \nagriculture as well as war, which again fits Spring Wind, so I have \nabandoned the Hercules hypothesis. I don't think it was all that flimsy \nthough. And (I will just note) the main character of the story is \nFrog/Romulus. He and his immediate story and twin brother are more central \nthan the details of his ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My evidence is based on the clear patterns of the way Wolfe starts telling \nthis story. Juno being called \"Early Summer\" is straight forward--it is \njust that the translator mixes up what comes from where. He assumes Juno's \nname comes from June rather than the other way around. Rhea Silvia is \nagain a straightforward attempt attempt at translation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If puns count as translation! But yes, Rhea Silvia is clear as daylight, \nand Juno is perfectly plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"spring\" in Spring Wind works for \"Mars\" but does not fit the pattern \nalready laid down because there's no place for the \"Wind\" translation. The \ntelling of this story has just taken a very strange turn, and it is about \nto get worse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I see nothing terribly strange about it. Characters' names in \nmythological stories change all the time. Wolfe might simply have felt that \njust 'Spring' was too short a name, and settled on 'Spring Wind'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, there is nothing in Romulus' or Remus' name or story to suggest \ncalling them \"Frog\" and \"Fish\". You are arbitrarily stating that it's \nrandom noise because it doesn't fit your preconceived model." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What would *you* suggest calling them? There is no obvious translation as \nwith Juno or in particular Rhea Silvia. Any name that sounds like Rome is \nway too obvious to be usable. Wolfe is already planning to bring in lots of \ntalking animals, so why not name the boys after animals? [He liked that \nidea so much he used it again!] Keeping the alliteration of Romulus and \nRemus, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I started with the assumption that Frog was a real person. Unlike you, I \ndon't just settle on the first hill that catches my eye and build \nfortifications there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Romulus isn't \"the first hill that catches my eye\". Romulus is the clear \nand undisputable identy of Frog. Their stories and circumstances match \nperfectly aside from the change of name (which doesn't apply to his mother). \nIf you are looking for a real person, you are looking for a real person who \nfor some reason is doomed to repeat the exact destiny of Romulus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I first profiled the name of the person who could be Frog and then found \nYmar sitting in plain sight. Based on same pattern, I believe that there \nis a good chance Severian will have met Fish on Tzadkiel (the shepherds) \nand his name will have a synonym or etymology that _could_ be translated \nfish or a type of fish. Possibly his name will mean \"sword\" or a type of \nsword. Naturally, if I find someone that matches what I was looking for, I \nwill be doubly-convinced, because he fits a profile I created beforehand." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not a \"profile\": it's just the assertion that Frog, for no obvious \nreason, must be somebody who is mentioned in BotNS, and that person can be \nlinked by a chain of puns in various languages to the word Frog. It ignores \nthe fact that we already have a clear and obvious ID for Frog, and it \nignores any relationship of the story of that person to the story of \nRomulus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course the Story of Frog has a lot of similarities to the Life of \nRomulus. \"East of Eden\" has a lot of similarities to Genesis. So what?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does't have \"a lot of similarities\". It is as near identical as Wolfe \ncould make it given the purposes for which he was writing. It has so many \npoints of identity that there are no reasonable doubts for disputing it. \nHis mother is identified clearly by name! He was abandoned with his twin to \nfloat downriver in a basket, and raised by wolves! He slew his twin when he \njumped over the trench marking the wall of the city they had founded! In \nthe entire history of past and future history and mythology, this is more \nthan enough to identify one particular person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Frog later claimed his heritage in the name of the Red Flower.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Red Flower is a reference from \"The Jungle Books\". In the Kipling's \nstories it means \"fire\". In the Book of the New Sun, an easy \ninterpretation would be the sun itself. However, I'd be open to other \nreasonable explanations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's from my Hercules theory, when I thought the flower was Zeus. It \nseems likely that the Red Flower is actually a mix of Juno's flower with the \nJungle book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Note 2: Instead of having both twins raised first by wolves and later by \nshepherds, Wolfe splits them so one is raised by each.\nI honestly don't understand how anyone can seriously assert that this \nstory is anything other than a version of Romulus and Remus! And on such \nflimsy evidence..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's because you don't really know that much about the references. If \nyou were better able to recognize them, they would be quite jarring. The \nfact that it has so many similarities to the story of Romulus and Remus \nonly makes the parts that don't map so troubling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Every part maps except two or three names (and in my mind they actually map \nwell enough considering Wolfe's purposes)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it is an easy call that Ymar is Frog (ymir=king=rana=frog). I \nsuspect that Fish will be found on Tzadkiel (the shepherds). Possibly he \nwill have a name that means \"sword\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's just a chain of puns in a bunch of different languages. I think \nit's random noise that means nothing. How come Frog isn't Martin Luther \nKing - the chain is one step shorter!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're doing it again, Gerry. I was inclined to ignore this response as \nunserious even at face-value. However (speaking as to a child), because \nMLK is not a character in the books. Ymar is. He is a child in the time of \nTyphon's reign." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Romulus isn't a character in the books either. If Romulus could be in a \nstory, Martin Luther King could also. As could Neil Armstrong.\n\nBut anyway, you indicated that you're looking for \"a real person\", i.e. \nsomeone from the historical past of Severian's time. I could buy Wolfe \nputting something about such a person into such a story, certainly, adding \nor modifying incidents to show something of such a person't history. The \nquestion is, does such a person exist? The obvious answer to me is no, the \nRomulus identity is obvious and there are no difficult questions raised \nabout it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We don't know a lot about the life of Ymar the Autarch - are there any \nobvious correspondences between his story and that of Frog?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Raised by wolves (Torturers)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bit of a stretch. Anything better? More importantly, if Wolfe had put a \nreference to Ymar or Typhon into the story of Frog, it would have been to \ntell us something about them. What, exactly, do you think we are being \ntold?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't think of any, unless Ymar founded Nessus, which seems it would be \nhard to justify." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why? Because you think this is _merely_ Wolfe ham-fisting the story of \nRomulus for no narrative value, you think Ymar must be precisely like \nRomulus in every way? I'm getting dizzy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm asking - if Wolfe is for some reason telling us the story of Romulus, \nbut hinting (in a manner too subtle for me) that it is really the story of \nYmar, what is the point he is making? So far I can't see that you have \nproposed any.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDAD35A.6030303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T21:36:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<6CA26952AAB44A74B9F01FC7CF51C630@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn:\n[...] And (I will just note) the main character of the story is \nFrog/Romulus. He and his immediate story and twin brother are more \ncentral than the details of his ancestors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you not say that this is the story of Mowgli with a few details \nof Romulus thrown in? The name \"Mowgli\" actually _means_ 'frog', and \nthere are at least as many parallels as with Romulus. There's no Red \nFlower in Romulus' story. What could be more straightforward? Of course, \nthere's no Naked One in either story. It only maps to The Jungle Book \nbecause bear=bare (ha ha ha) but then we know that \"puns are not \ntranslation\" so let's ignore that. And the Red Flower was never \nMowgli's banner. There are lots details that sort of parallel one story \nor both, but are actually unique.\nThis is a perfect example of confirmation bias. You see what you think \nyour supposed to see and you filter out all the rest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My evidence is based on the clear patterns of the way Wolfe starts \ntelling this story. Juno being called \"Early Summer\" is straight \nforward--it is just that the translator mixes up what comes from \nwhere. He assumes Juno's name comes from June rather than the other \nway around. Rhea Silvia is again a straightforward attempt attempt at \ntranslation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If puns count as translation! But yes, Rhea Silvia is clear as \ndaylight, and Juno is perfectly plausible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If historian of the future, were to tell the story of WW2 and called \nGermany \"the Tribes\" in his own language, that would not be a pun. That \nis a valid translation for Germany. And if that history traveled in Time \nback to us, and we read that the Tribes had invaded Paris, it would \nsound strange, but it is not a pun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, there is nothing in Romulus' or Remus' name or story to \nsuggest calling them \"Frog\" and \"Fish\". You are arbitrarily stating \nthat it's random noise because it doesn't fit your preconceived model." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What would *you* suggest calling them? There is no obvious \ntranslation as with Juno or in particular Rhea Silvia. Any name that \nsounds like Rome is way too obvious to be usable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since when does Wolfe require obvious translations? I suppose a name \nassociated with \"teat\" which is a common etymology of the word \"Rome\". \nSuddenly, Wolfe _doesn't_ want to be obvious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[...]Romulus isn't a character in the books either. If Romulus could \nbe in a story, Martin Luther King could also.\nAs could Neil Armstrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not Romulus anymore than it is Mowgli. You making the same mistake \nas the mythologers Wolfe is parodying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[...] More importantly, if Wolfe had put a reference to Ymar or \nTyphon into the story of Frog, it would have been to tell us something \nabout them. What, exactly, do you think we are being told?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ymar's parentage and a glimpse at the vast history Wolfe has imagined. \nWhat is the purpose of mentioning the Nargothrond or Moria in \"The Hobbit\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm asking - if Wolfe is for some reason telling us the story of \nRomulus, but hinting (in a manner too subtle for me)..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yep. It went right over your head.\nIt's not the story of Romulus. Nor is it the story of Mowgli. That is \nthe mistake the mythographers made. And you are making it write along \nwith them. I'm appreciating Wolfe's joke more and more.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<02db01cc1991$fb1288f0$4001a8c0@pc>", "from": { "name": "pinlighter", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T21:40:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<6CA26952AAB44A74B9F01FC7CF51C630@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- >> Of course, there is nothing in Romulus' or \nRemus' name or story to suggest" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "calling them \"Frog\" and \"Fish\". You are arbitrarily stating that it's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not a \"profile\": it's just the assertion that Frog, for no obvious\nreason, must be somebody who is mentioned in BotNS, and that person can be\nlinked by a chain of puns in various languages to the word Frog." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\n\nUm, has it been mentioned that \" Mowgli\" is supposed to mean \"frog\"?\n\n\n\n - hartshorn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDAD480.2070503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T21:41:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDAD35A.6030303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nWhy do you not say that this is the story of Mowgli with a few details\nof Romulus thrown in? The name \"Mowgli\" actually _means_ 'frog', and\nthere are at least as many parallels as with Romulus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So tell us about them. Erase the names and colours, and enumerate the \nsimilarities that are left. How Frog's deeds parallel those of Mowgli." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDAD6E9.9040404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T21:51:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<02db01cc1991$fb1288f0$4001a8c0@pc>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "pinlighter wrote:\nUm, has it been mentioned that \" Mowgli\" is supposed to mean \"frog\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nobody denied that there are elements of the Book of the Jungle in the\nstory; the question is whether they're anything more than scenic." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDADA44.4030205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T22:05:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDAD480.2070503@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you not say that this is the story of Mowgli with a few details\nof Romulus thrown in? The name \"Mowgli\" actually _means_ 'frog', and\nthere are at least as many parallels as with Romulus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques:\nSo tell us about them. Erase the names and colours, and enumerate the \nsimilarities that are left. How Frog's deeds parallel those of Mowgli." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Erase the names and colors?\nShall I also leave out the names of Juno, Rhea Silvia, and Mars? And all \nthe \"color\" that is similar to the life of Romulus? Get real.\n\nExpanding on Andrew's list:\n\nThe name 'Frog'\nFound by animals in the forest\nAdopted by wolves (Romulus was sucked by A SINGLE wolf)\nAn argument among the wolves regarding his adoption, in which the tiger takes part\nThe tiger (smilodon) as the threat to the child.\nThe black panther (Black Killer-- the word 'panther' is Greek for \"all beasts of prey\")\nThe Naked One (the Bare/bear) who plays the same role as Baloo\nThe Red Flower\nA woodcutter is one of Frog's fathers\n\n\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDADA78.3060108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T22:06:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDAD6E9.9040404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "pinlighter wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Um, has it been mentioned that \" Mowgli\" is supposed to mean \"frog\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nobody denied that there are elements of the Book of the Jungle in the\nstory; the question is whether they're anything more than scenic. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Confirmation bias.\nIt doesn't fit with what I expected, therefore it is invisible.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDADC4E.5020008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T22:14:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDADA78.3060108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\npinlighter wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Um, has it been mentioned that \" Mowgli\" is supposed to mean \"frog\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nobody denied that there are elements of the Book of the Jungle in the\nstory; the question is whether they're anything more than scenic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Confirmation bias.\nIt doesn't fit with what I expected, therefore it is invisible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is invisible? The near 1:1 correspondence with Romulus's story to you, \nbecause you don't want it to be the single most important part of it, \nbecause it wasn't what you expected, so you have to downplay it as just a \nminor component?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDADCE4.7070607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T22:17:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDADA44.4030205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do you not say that this is the story of Mowgli with a few\ndetails of Romulus thrown in? The name \"Mowgli\" actually _means_\n'frog', and there are at least as many parallels as with Romulus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques: So tell us about them. Erase the names and\ncolours, and enumerate the similarities that are left. How Frog's deeds\nparallel those of Mowgli." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Erase the names and colors?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shall I also leave out the names of Juno, Rhea Silvia, and Mars?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And all the \"color\" that is similar to the life of Romulus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What would that be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Get real." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Give us some Stuff That Happens." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDADE6B.5020209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T22:23:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDADCE4.7070607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques: So tell us about them. Erase the names and\ncolours, and enumerate the similarities that are left. How Frog's deeds\nparallel those of Mowgli." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Erase the names and colors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Shall I also leave out the names of Juno, Rhea Silvia, and Mars?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And all the \"color\" that is similar to the life of Romulus?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What would that be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Get real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Give us some Stuff That Happens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "?????\nAre you winding me up, Antonio?\nAlmost all of Part II and all of Part III are lifted out of The Jungle \nBook and has zero relation to the life Romulus.\nPart IV has parallels to the life of Romulus, but it is it's own story.\nIf this is a joke, now is the time to say something.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDAE36B.6050501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T22:44:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDADE6B.5020209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nGive us some Stuff That Happens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?????\nAre you winding me up, Antonio?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. You usually don't need any help in that regard. I wish you'd stop \nreacting that way, but that's who you are, and it doesn't get so much in the \nway once one gets the hang of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Almost all of Part II and all of Part III are lifted out of The Jungle\nBook and has zero relation to the life Romulus.\nPart IV has parallels to the life of Romulus, but it is it's own story.\nIf this is a joke, now is the time to say something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know what you want me, or anyone else, to say. I think it's clear \nfor most of us that like others the F&F story was cobbled up from various \nstories we know, and maybe one or other we don't. You even eloquently laid \nout a possible account of its composition. What I don't think is correct is \nto insist, after all that, that there is one obvious identification there \nfor all to see, much less that that is to Ymar. It may be defensible, but I \ndon't find it cogent or enabling enough for it to be proclaimed as evident. \nI've mentioned before theories may stand on their plausibility, on their \nevidential support, and on their ability to enrichen the story (and enrichen \nmeans not with themselves, but with something more). Where one of those \naspects is missing, one other may suffice - and that's why I think Gerry \nasked you what does Frog ~ Ymar bring into the book, and 'it brings Frog ~ \nYmar' isn't very satisfying. (You'll now ask what does Nulukkizdin bring \ninto the Hobbit, or Grandma Dorcas into the New Sun, but those aren't \ntheories, they're data; and I'm afraid this brings us into one our first \nexchanges here, which I don't think would be especially nice to revisit.)\n\nSo no, I'm not winding you up, I'm asking you to wind down." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EEDE4BE90CC4A45A16FD8D6A227B70E@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-24T00:38:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDAD35A.6030303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nGerry Quinn:\n[...] And (I will just note) the main character of the story is \nFrog/Romulus. He and his immediate story and twin brother are more \ncentral than the details of his ancestors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you not say that this is the story of Mowgli with a few details of \nRomulus thrown in?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because the story of the actual doings of Frog is the story of Romulus. \n(The story of his ancestry is also that of Romulus.) The section involving \nthe Senate of Wolves is from the Jungle Book, but Frog is only a passive \nspectator there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The name \"Mowgli\" actually _means_ 'frog', and" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it seems he gets his name from the Jungle Book. Which means, in turn, \nthat there is no need for any strained connection to Ymar! I maintain, \nhowever, that the names Romulus and Remus retain an echo in the equally \nalliterative Frog and Fish. Wolfe mixes the two stories.\n\n[By the way, I don't see the name Spring Wind as a problem. In the first \nplace, Mars is associated with Spring. It is suggested in the story that \nEarly Summer had a particular reason for calling him Spring Wind, but that \nreason is not stated. However, what *is* stated is that Early Summer took a \nsecret delight in his affinity for agriculture. There was a Greek god of \nSpring winds called Zephyr who brought the rains of early spring which were \nnecessary for seeds to sprout; it may be that Early Summer was thinking of \nthese winds and rains.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there are at least as many parallels as with Romulus. There's no Red \nFlower in Romulus' story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But there is! Juno was impregnated by a magic flower, and this is repeated \nin Wolfe's version. Wolfe states that the flower was \"redder than any \nrose\". So while the association of the red flower with fire comes from the \nJungle Book, Wolfe has again mixed the two stories together. In the Jungle \nBook, Mowgli's grandmother was not impregnated by fire.\n\nTraditionally the magic flower appears to be the foxglove, which comes in a \nvariety of colours, including red." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What could be more straightforward? Of course, there's no Naked One in \neither story. It only maps to The Jungle Book because bear=bare (ha ha ha) \nbut then we know that \"puns are not translation\" so let's ignore that. \nAnd the Red Flower was never Mowgli's banner. There are lots details that \nsort of parallel one story or both, but are actually unique.\nThis is a perfect example of confirmation bias. You see what you think \nyour supposed to see and you filter out all the rest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fact is that the points of coincidence between Frog's life story and \nthat of Romulus are pretty much exact. I listed them. There's no \"sort of \nparallel detail\" involved - there is a reproduction that is essentialy exact \nto the limits within which Wolfe was working - for example Rhea Silvia's \nname, or the death of Remus.\n\nThe connections to the Jungle Book may be pretty solid too; the only thing \nis that those parts are not really much about Frog." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course, there is nothing in Romulus' or Remus' name or story to \nsuggest calling them \"Frog\" and \"Fish\". You are arbitrarily stating that \nit's random noise because it doesn't fit your preconceived model." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What would *you* suggest calling them? There is no obvious translation \nas with Juno or in particular Rhea Silvia. Any name that sounds like \nRome is way too obvious to be usable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since when does Wolfe require obvious translations? I suppose a name \nassociated with \"teat\" which is a common etymology of the word \"Rome\". \nSuddenly, Wolfe _doesn't_ want to be obvious?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's not hiding the origins of the story; that doesn't mean he wants to \ncrudely replicate it. You may be right about the etymology of Romulus, but \nit doesn't seem well-known - I googled and the only suggestion I saw was \nWikipedia's suggestion that it may simply be a back-formation from Rome. \nThen there is the problem of what to name Remus. So, Kipling came to the \nrescue! And the alliteration of Romulus and Remus is preserved in the names \nof Frog and Fish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[...]Romulus isn't a character in the books either. If Romulus could be \nin a story, Martin Luther King could also.\nAs could Neil Armstrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not Romulus anymore than it is Mowgli. You making the same mistake as \nthe mythologers Wolfe is parodying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It *is* Romulus and in parts Mowgli. The stories told are the stories of \nwhat Romulus did, and to a lesser extent what Mowgli's animal friends did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[...] More importantly, if Wolfe had put a reference to Ymar or Typhon \ninto the story of Frog, it would have been to tell us something about \nthem. What, exactly, do you think we are being told?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ymar's parentage and a glimpse at the vast history Wolfe has imagined." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could buy a reference to Typhon in Spring Wind - but what exactly are you \nproposing with regard to Ymar's parentage? Wolfe in a later book places \nYmar as a youmg apprentice of the Torturer's of Typhon's time [an error on \nWolfe's part, IMO, as I think Ymar should have been later - but that's just \nmy literary opinion]. Clearly in UotNS Ymar's parentage is unknown - but \nfor it to to be mythologised it would have to have later become widely known \nthat Ymar was the son of Typhon. But there's no supporting evidence for \nthat. And if the mythologisers made that mistake, why did the fact become \nwidely known enough for them to do so, and then become forgotten again?\n\nAnd Ymar clearly didn't found Nessus. It's hard to see how he could have \nhad a twin brother. If the mythologisers are making a mistake, WHY do you \nthink they are making such a mistake? Why do they conflate the stories of \nRomulus and Ymar?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm asking - if Wolfe is for some reason telling us the story of Romulus, \nbut hinting (in a manner too subtle for me)..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "yep. It went right over your head.\nIt's not the story of Romulus. Nor is it the story of Mowgli. That is the \nmistake the mythographers made. And you are making it write along with \nthem. I'm appreciating Wolfe's joke more and more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what's the Great Secret of Ymar then? [Though we've now established that \nthe name Frog comes from the Jungle Book, so you really have no \njustification at all for your Ymar = emir = rana = frog argument! The name \nFrog has been explained, and the explanation has nothing to do with Ymar.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T13:22:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4EEDE4BE90CC4A45A16FD8D6A227B70E@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: And Ymar clearly didn't found Nessus. It's hard to see how he could have \nhad a twin brother. If the mythologisers are making a mistake, WHY do you \nthink they are making such a mistake? Why do they conflate the stories of \nRomulus and Ymar?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOn first reading James' hypothesis that Frog=Ymar it had the immediate ring of truth for me, \nsort of along the lines of his Typhon-Alexander connection. The Typhon-Spring Wind\n(add Windcloud?) connection took longer to gain acceptance but I notice even Gerry is \naccepting that as a possibility now.\n \nThe truthiness of the connection was subconscious at first but think I understand it now. The \nTale of the Boy Called Frog is a story told, by request, to a boy named Little Severian. In \nUotNS, when Severiaan meets the boy named Reechy he comes to learn that he is Ymar and thus,\nessentially, a \"little Severian\" i.e. a torturer boy who rises to become Autarch. I find this \nconnection more compelling and thus the frog-rana-king connection to be secondary and supporting.\n \nYmar is the ruler who succeeds Typhon while Frog is the son who succeeds Spring Wind as the\nhero of the story. No, Ymar didn't found Nessus but he did (I assert) with help from a certain\nmysterious, magical vizier, found the Commonwealth. A passable parallel to Romulus, imho. Moses\nwas also a founder, though not of a city. We don't know Mowgli's future but I get an intuitive\npresentiment of greatness from Kipling's writing.\n \nIs Gerry's disbelief in Ymar's twin brother because he would expect that brother to be there as\na Torturer's Apprentice? Since we have now established that the Tale of Frog is not a straight \nrendition of Romulus and Remus can we speculate that perhaps Ymar had a twin sister? Is there a \n1000 year old witch in BotNS? (in UotNS I think we also find a magical vizier in Typhon's time).\n \nUnfortunately I cannot get to the text right now. Am I right in remembering the sowing of teeth or\nstones to grow soldiers in Tale of Boy Called Frog? If so the story also invokes Cadmus, the\nfounder of Thebes and that royal house. As brother to Europa and grandfather to Dionysus, the\nmythological inclusion of Cadmus might be fruitful in fleshing out more of the Sun Series backstory. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-24T14:29:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Ymar clearly didn't found Nessus. It's hard to see how he could have\nhad a twin brother. If the mythologisers are making a mistake, WHY do you\nthink they are making such a mistake? Why do they conflate the stories of\nRomulus and Ymar?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On first reading James' hypothesis that Frog=Ymar it had the immediate \nring of truth for me,\nsort of along the lines of his Typhon-Alexander connection. The \nTyphon-Spring Wind\n(add Windcloud?) connection took longer to gain acceptance but I notice \neven Gerry is\naccepting that as a possibility now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The story of the Boy Called Frog, which clearly originates in a synthesis of \nRomulus and Remus combined with The Jungle Book, has also incorporated \nsnippets of other mythologies and of ways that people of one era would have \nunderstood things of the past. The 'mountaintop beyond the shores of Urth' \nfor example, perhaps incorporates ideas of Mt. Olympus (from the original \nstory), a space station of some kind (or perhaps a territory on Lune), and \nWolfe's notion, expressed in an appendix, that the technology/culture of \nsailing ships and spaceships have somehow become merged. If the not quite \ncentral character of Mars incorporated elements of Typhon, it would not be \nterribly surprising. I don't think there's much reason to support it, but \nof course it could happen. The thing is, we can tell which way the \nincorporation goes, because the character of Mars was part of the main \noriginal story, and really there's not much to distinguish Spring Wind's \nnature from the traditional nature of Mars. Another reason to doubt the \ninfluence of Typhon on the story is the absence of any two-headed \niconography, though of course that's easily explained by saying Wolfe didn't \nthink of that until he started on Long Sun. If Spring Wind did have an \nallusion involving two heads, we would of course be very comfortable with \nthe notion of a Typhon connection.\n\nAs I wrote the above, another example of embellishment with ideas of the \ntime occured to me: it is in the section where the wolves in their burrow \ndefend Frog from the smilodon. The animals are spoken of as carrying \nweapons such as knives. There is of course a strong echo here of the idea \nof bees with swords, which was the concept of bees held by the people \nimmured for generations in the Antechamber. Perhaps Wolfe is suggesting \nthat the tales were transmitted via some antechamber folk who found their \nway out. Or perhaps these embellishments were added at a time when Urth was \na megapolis with few animals. We don't know, and we don't really need to \nknow. The point is the structure, not the embellishments per se." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The truthiness of the connection was subconscious at first but think I \nunderstand it now. The\nTale of the Boy Called Frog is a story told, by request, to a boy named \nLittle Severian. In\nUotNS, when Severiaan meets the boy named Reechy he comes to learn that he \nis Ymar and thus,\nessentially, a \"little Severian\" i.e. a torturer boy who rises to become \nAutarch. I find this\nconnection more compelling and thus the frog-rana-king connection to be \nsecondary and supporting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In some ways that works; Wolfe does indeed often include such meta-asides to \nthe reader. The biggest problem with it, I think, is that while Wolfe had \nalready, at the time the tale of Frog reached its final draft, written the \nCitadel of the Autarch, he had not yet started on Urth of the New Sun, and \ndid not intend to do so. In BotNS, (unless you include Frog!) there is no \nindication that Ymar was the first Autarch, or was contemporaneous with \nTyphon. Nor does his contemporeity with Typhon seem to inform us of \nanything; indeed I personally think it hurts the story in some ways. I \nsuspect that Wolfe, after he had started on UotNS, decided it would be \n'lame' for Severian not to meet Ymar, and wrote it in then.\n\n[This is the obverse of the point about the two-headed Typhon iconography. \nWe cannot reject Typhon as Spring Wind arguments on account of the absence \nof two-headedness - and equally we must be wary of drawing connections to \nevents in Ymar's life which in all probability were not imagined yet by \nWolfe.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ymar is the ruler who succeeds Typhon while Frog is the son who succeeds \nSpring Wind as the\nhero of the story. No, Ymar didn't found Nessus but he did (I assert) with \nhelp from a certain\nmysterious, magical vizier, found the Commonwealth. A passable parallel to \nRomulus, imho. Moses\nwas also a founder, though not of a city. We don't know Mowgli's future \nbut I get an intuitive\npresentiment of greatness from Kipling's writing.\n\nIs Gerry's disbelief in Ymar's twin brother because he would expect that \nbrother to be there as\na Torturer's Apprentice?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since we have now established that the Tale of Frog is not a straight\nrendition of Romulus and Remus can we speculate that perhaps Ymar had a \ntwin sister? Is there a\n1000 year old witch in BotNS? (in UotNS I think we also find a magical \nvizier in Typhon's time)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None that is human, I believe. [As for Inire, if I recall correctly he is \nsaid in BotNS to date from the time of Ymar, so if Ymar reigned relatively \nshortly after Typhon's time then Inire must have appeared then too.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately I cannot get to the text right now. Am I right in \nremembering the sowing of teeth or\nstones to grow soldiers in Tale of Boy Called Frog? If so the story also \ninvokes Cadmus, the\nfounder of Thebes and that royal house. As brother to Europa and \ngrandfather to Dionysus, the\nmythological inclusion of Cadmus might be fruitful in fleshing out more of \nthe Sun Series backstory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No - he raised an army composed of ordinary men plus wolves.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDBDA41.2020009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T16:18:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn:\nThe 'mountaintop beyond the shores of Urth' for example, perhaps \nincorporates ideas of Mt. Olympus (from the original story), a space \nstation of some kind (or perhaps a territory on Lune), and Wolfe's \nnotion, expressed in an appendix, that the technology/culture of \nsailing ships and spaceships have somehow become merged. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I read this story, its the other way around. The translators have \nerred in reading reference such as \"Mt Olympus\" or such in the myths as \nmetaphorical language referring to other planets. They were \n\"rationalizing the myths\" just an many mythographers have always done \ngoing back to the Greeks. Some saw the gods as great kings of the past. \nGraves saw them as religio-political allegory. These mythographers saw \nreferences to other-worldly mountains and streams as references to other \nplants and solar systems--a concept that had become mundane to them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the not quite central character of Mars incorporated elements of \nTyphon, it would not be terribly surprising. I don't think there's \nmuch reason to support it, but of course it could happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I think it is the other way around. Someone looked at the deeds \nof the Mars character in the story of Romulus and said \"Ohhh...this is \n_actually_ talking about Typhon and this is his son whose name we call \n\"Rana\" now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The thing is, we can tell which way the incorporation goes, because \nthe character of Mars was part of the main original story, and really \nthere's not much to distinguish Spring Wind's nature from the \ntraditional nature of Mars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that his name, \"Spring Wind\", makes no sense as a designation for \nMars. And a garbled retelling the Romulus tale is kind of lame and \nunimaginative. And, well, there's really nothing Wolfean about that \nreading. I contend, Wolfe just _would not do_ what you are saying he \ndid. Even a Freshman writer wouldn't do something as lame as that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Another reason to doubt the influence of Typhon on the story is the \nabsence of any two-headed iconography, though of course that's easily \nexplained by saying Wolfe didn't think of that until he started on \nLong Sun. If Spring Wind did have an allusion involving two heads, we \nwould of course be very comfortable with the notion of a Typhon \nconnection. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't imagine why we would expect this. Typhon's head was grafted on \nto Piaton only months before his death. The presence of two-headed \niconography on the Long Sun only shows that the scans were performed and \nthe ship was launched within that narrow time period." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The biggest problem with it, I think, is that while Wolfe had already, \nat the time the tale of Frog reached its final draft, written the \nCitadel of the Autarch, he had not yet started on Urth of the New Sun, \nand did not intend to do so. In BotNS, (unless you include Frog!) \nthere is no indication that Ymar was the first Autarch, or was \ncontemporaneous with Typhon. Nor does his contemporeity with Typhon \nseem to inform us of anything; indeed I personally think it hurts the \nstory in some ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would only be 'lame' for Severian not to meet him IF Wolfe felt he \nhad already informed us that Ymar was contemporaneous with Typhon. It \nseems to me that this logic is circular:\n\"Wolfe had not considered the intricate details of how the Commonwealth \nwas founded so therefore glimpses in the text that suggest he had are \n'fanastical theories'.\"\nRather, it seems to me, the point of the stories are to show that he \n_had_ considered these things even though he chose not to explain them \nin Severian's conversations. And we have other examples of this that we \nknow of.\n\n1) Wolfe must have considered who the Conciliator was and what he did \nthat a religion was formed about him. Yet, the text never explicitly \nidentifies Severian as the Conciliator and even UotNS does not detail \nhis teachings. Additionally, even though Typhon must have recognized \nthat Severian was a dead-ringer for the Conciliator and might have \nguessed that he was a Time-travelling younger self, he never says so either.\n\n2) Wolfe must have considered Severian's future to the extent that he \nwould become Apu Punchau, but never intended to explain how.\n\n3) Wolfe knew that the New Sun would flood the Urth, but only expressed \nit in the vaguest sense.\n\n4) Dr. Talos's play was once seen as an elaborate mythical \ncreation/amalgam by Wolfe, but is now understood to be a generally \nfactual rendition of true events.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<205634.91170.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-24T17:02:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/24/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, May 24, 2011, 10:29 AM\n\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn:\n\n\nAs I wrote the above, another example of embellishment with\nideas of the time occured to me: it is in the section where\nthe wolves in their burrow defend Frog from the\nsmilodon. The animals are spoken of as carrying\nweapons such as knives. There is of course a strong\necho here of the idea of bees with swords, which was the\nconcept of bees held by the people immured for generations\nin the Antechamber. Perhaps Wolfe is suggesting that\nthe tales were transmitted via some antechamber folk who\nfound their way out. Or perhaps these embellishments\nwere added at a time when Urth was a megapolis with few\nanimals. We don't know, and we don't really need to\nknow. The point is the structure, not the\nembellishments per se." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Antechamber always made me think vaguely of Plato's Cave, the way its inhabitants sit telling stories from a world they have never seen and know nothing of except from those stories. One one hand, this is much like mortals trying to figure out the nature of a Divine Being they can't see; on the other, their stories achieve a sort of perfection without the correction that knowledge of the real world would provide. Both ideas are pretty central to Wolfe's approach to myth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unfortunately I cannot get to the text right now. Am I\nright in remembering the sowing of teeth or\nstones to grow soldiers in Tale of Boy Called Frog? If\nso the story also invokes Cadmus, the\nfounder of Thebes and that royal house. As brother to\nEuropa and grandfather to Dionysus, the\nmythological inclusion of Cadmus might be fruitful in\nfleshing out more of the Sun Series backstory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No - he raised an army composed of ordinary men plus\nwolves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure? I also was reminded of the Jason story." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T17:20:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<205634.91170.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The story of the Boy Called Frog, which clearly originates in a synthesis of \nRomulus and Remus combined with The Jungle Book, has also incorporated \nsnippets of other mythologies and of ways that people of one era would have \nunderstood things of the past...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNice response, Gerry! I would agree with most of it. I agree that if Ymar is meant to be Frog\nit was a contrivance made for UotNS only. It would involve Wolfe saying, \"okay, I've included\na historical view of Typhon but who can I add to show that Frog was also a real\nhistorical figure...hm..who founded the Commonwealth...ah! Ymar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is of course a strong echo here of the idea of bees with swords, which was the concept of \nbees held by the people immured for generations in the Antechamber. Perhaps Wolfe is suggesting \nthat the tales were transmitted via some antechamber folk who found their way out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt's possible. A good idea. But the story of wolves carrying knives might also be akin to the \nstories we hear of lower animals developing versions of human speech and writing. Or it could be a\ndegenerate, wolf-like group of humans who retain manual dexterity. Or it could be that Frog was raised \nby a human group known as the Wolf Clan and the tales converted them to their namesake. \n \nBut you are correct in thinking it doesn't matter too much. What matters is that we get the interactive \nrelationship between reality, history and mythology. I think you've denied that relationship as relevant \nto Wolfe's writing in the past but perhaps there is a growing awareness of how essential it is for \nunderstanding. Your quick switch from denial of Jungle Book influence on the Frog story to assimilation\nwas impressive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We cannot reject Typhon as Spring Wind arguments on account of the absence of two-headedness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nCorrect, but not for the reason you suggest. On the Whorl, Typhon's two-headedness is common knowlege.\nNot so on Urth. It was a recent development and a deep secret. Thus Spring Wind (the youthful, sober\nthoughtful Alexander) would never have two heads in legends that circulated on Urth. It is the wind\nallusions and the youth/older life history of Alexander which connect Spring Wind and Typhon, not heads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there a 1000 year old witch in BotNS? None that is human, I believe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI didn't say \"human\" witch. If Ymar and twin sister are descendents of Typhon can we be sure the whole \nfamily is (fully) human? I don't think so. Since I question whether Severian is fully human, I don't have \nmuch of a problem asking the same question about Ymar. Morover a snake-essense daughter of Typhon fits \nrather nicely with his mythological namesake. Wouldn't the snaky Cumaean make a nice sister or half-sister \nto snaky Scylla?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for Inire, if I recall correctly he is said in BotNS to date from the time of Ymar" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn my view that is when he started using the name \"Inire\". But in UotNS, Severian rather inexplicably \nencounters a real wizard/necromancer named Ceryx. Immediately after their encounter, Severian is captured \nand brought in front of the highly sequestered Typhon. Rather than dismiss Ceryx as a one-off, I think he\nis the vizier (and magic investigator) for Typhon. In other words, he is Inire, serving in the same \ncapacity that he will serve the Autarchs.\n \nIn my view, most of Severian's adventures (Dorcas, Sanguinary Fields, Vodalus/Thecla, Old Leech etc.) are \npieces set up by this necromancer to try to winnow from him the secret of true resurrection. \n \n(p.s.thanks for the Cadmus related info.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDBF72F.5080705@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-24T18:21:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian is not immediately arrested after his meeting with Ceryx. Ceryx \ncreates\na \"zombie\" from a drowned young man. Zombie tries to kill Severian, becomes\ntruly alive due to Severian, and kills Ceryx in the morning (and is \nkilled by the mob).\nThen Severian travels on a boat to Saltus, young Burgundofara who was with\nSeverian finds a lover, Severian almost destroys the boath because his wrath\nproduced a storm, and is denounced to the authorities by Burgundofara \nand her\nlover. Maybe somebody else as well.\nHe is accompanied by the followers who think him to be the Consiliator, and\nthis of course cannot be tolerated by the dictatorial regime of Typhon.\n\nBest\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The story of the Boy Called Frog, which clearly originates in a synthesis of \nRomulus and Remus combined with The Jungle Book, has also incorporated \nsnippets of other mythologies and of ways that people of one era would have \nunderstood things of the past....\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nNice response, Gerry! I would agree with most of it. I agree that if Ymar is meant to be Frog\nit was a contrivance made for UotNS only. It would involve Wolfe saying, \"okay, I've included\na historical view of Typhon but who can I add to show that Frog was also a real\nhistorical figure...hm..who founded the Commonwealth...ah! Ymar.\n \n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is of course a strong echo here of the idea of bees with swords, which was the concept of \nbees held by the people immured for generations in the Antechamber. Perhaps Wolfe is suggesting \nthat the tales were transmitted via some antechamber folk who found their way out.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nIt's possible. A good idea. But the story of wolves carrying knives might also be akin to the \nstories we hear of lower animals developing versions of human speech and writing. Or it could be a\ndegenerate, wolf-like group of humans who retain manual dexterity. Or it could be that Frog was raised \nby a human group known as the Wolf Clan and the tales converted them to their namesake. \n \nBut you are correct in thinking it doesn't matter too much. What matters is that we get the interactive \nrelationship between reality, history and mythology. I think you've denied that relationship as relevant \nto Wolfe's writing in the past but perhaps there is a growing awareness of how essential it is for \nunderstanding. Your quick switch from denial of Jungle Book influence on the Frog story to assimilation\nwas impressive.\n \n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We cannot reject Typhon as Spring Wind arguments on account of the absence of two-headedness.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n \nCorrect, but not for the reason you suggest. On the Whorl, Typhon's two-headedness is common knowlege.\nNot so on Urth. It was a recent development and a deep secret. Thus Spring Wind (the youthful, sober\nthoughtful Alexander) would never have two heads in legends that circulated on Urth. It is the wind\nallusions and the youth/older life history of Alexander which connect Spring Wind and Typhon, not heads.\n \n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there a 1000 year old witch in BotNS? None that is human, I believe.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI didn't say \"human\" witch. If Ymar and twin sister are descendents of Typhon can we be sure the whole \nfamily is (fully) human? I don't think so. Since I question whether Severian is fully human, I don't have \nmuch of a problem asking the same question about Ymar. Morover a snake-essense daughter of Typhon fits \nrather nicely with his mythological namesake. Wouldn't the snaky Cumaean make a nice sister or half-sister \nto snaky Scylla?\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for Inire, if I recall correctly he is said in BotNS to date from the time of Ymar\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nIn my view that is when he started using the name \"Inire\". But in UotNS, Severian rather inexplicably \nencounters a real wizard/necromancer named Ceryx. Immediately after their encounter, Severian is captured \nand brought in front of the highly sequestered Typhon. Rather than dismiss Ceryx as a one-off, I think he\nis the vizier (and magic investigator) for Typhon. In other words, he is Inire, serving in the same \ncapacity that he will serve the Autarchs.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T20:15:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDBF72F.5080705@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: Severian is not immediately arrested after his meeting with Ceryx. Ceryx \ncreates a \"zombie\" from a drowned young man. Zombie tries to kill Severian, becomes\ntruly alive due to Severian, and kills Ceryx in the morning (and is killed by the mob).Then \nSeverian travels on a boat to Saltus, He is accompanied by the followers who think him \nto be the Consiliator, and this of course cannot be tolerated by the dictatorial regime of \nTyphon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI consider the whole episode with Zama and his resurrection to be a part of Severian's \nencounter with Ceryx. Severian's power of healing, life and death is proven.\n \nYou are right that there is the interlude of the boat ride before Severian is arrested.\nBut your hypothesis that Severian is arrested by a large group of soldiers and taken to the \nCitadel and then to Typhon himself because he has collected a few followers doesn't ring true for \nme. Like hitting a tack witha sledge hammer.\n \nMoreover, when Typhon speaks with Severian it isn't about political power. It is about his power\nas a medical wonderworker. And we know that Typhon is currently undergoing a medical emergency.\nI don't think it is a coincidence.\n \nAh the price of arrogance ;- ). He had to demand a demonstration of power from Severian. If Typhon \nhad summoned Severian and asked him nicely for some help with his nerve grafts, he might have gotten it. \nMoreover if he'd asked Severian nicely to be his regent on Urth, in the future, he might have gotten that \nalso (Severian is no Jesus and the Thecla within him desired a throne). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDCDFDA.4070802@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-25T10:54:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Lee,\n\nthank you very much for the detailed answer. I will update my arguments\nbelow, but let me clarify one point before -\n\nyou write" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it was Sergei (in his other\nguise) who used to complain about too many JW's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no other guise here! I am one of the \"resident russian professors\"\nmentioned in some other posting - I work in France (since 1998),\nand I know Jerry Friedman due to Nabokov List. You can find me easily\n(with references to some math papers) via google." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: Severian is not immediately arrested after his meeting with Ceryx. Ceryx \ncreates a \"zombie\" from a drowned young man. Zombie tries to kill Severian, becomes\ntruly alive due to Severian, and kills Ceryx in the morning (and is killed by the mob).Then \nSeverian travels on a boat to Saltus, He is accompanied by the followers who think him \nto be the Consiliator, and this of course cannot be tolerated by the dictatorial regime of \nTyphon.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI consider the whole episode with Zama and his resurrection to be a part of Severian's \nencounter with Ceryx. Severian's power of healing, life and death is proven.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know that there are many biblical parallels. Ceryx corresponds rather \nto Simon the Magus,\nwho had a magical contest with St. Peter, used his power to fly and felt \ndown and died when\nPeter did pray. In Wolfe's text Severian thinks that while he travelled \nto Yesod, Ceryx probably\ntravelled to some other \"dark\" worlds. So Ceryx is compared (and \nopposed) to Severian in\nhis humanity, he is not an \"alien\" like Father Inire. He is a sort of \npotential Antichrist who fails\nmiserably before developing his full power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nYou are right that there is the interlude of the boat ride before Severian is arrested.\nBut your hypothesis that Severian is arrested by a large group of soldiers and taken to the \nCitadel and then to Typhon himself because he has collected a few followers doesn't ring true for \nme. Like hitting a tack witha sledge hammer.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You forget the details - the group of soldiers had no intention and no \norder to take Severian to Typhon at the\nmoment of his arrest. If not his miraculous powers, he would die - they \nhad beaten him mercilessly.\nThey started to respect him because he recovered and because one of the \nsoldiers he killed\nwas resurrected by him. (And because they started to believe that he may be\nthe Consiliator. Obviously, the legend was already common knowledge, \nlike messianic\nlegends in Jesus time.)\n\nWhen he was taken to the Citadel, it was for questioning by \"Madame \nPrefect\" -\nit seems that she would torture him to death again, so, it was no order \n(yet) to take him to Typhon.\nWhen he killed her, one of the weapons on the top of the tower was used \nas on any escaped criminal - and an ordinary man would\ndie (again). It is not the way to respect the order of a dictator.\n\nOne more argument - what you say here applies also to Christ (in \npolitical context). In Wolfe's\ntext it is remarked that after the story with Ceryx it was already \nhundreds, if not thousands\nof followers. Did Christ entering Jerusalem have \"a few followers\"? Was \nhis arrest and\ncrucification \"like hitting a tack with a sledge hammer\"? If you read \nthe Bible, you see that\nPilatus was more or less of this opinion, but political intrigue... And \nfor Typhon and his regime it was\nthe time of troubles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nMoreover, when Typhon speaks with Severian it isn't about political power. It is about his power\nas a medical wonderworker. And we know that Typhon is currently undergoing a medical emergency.\nI don't think it is a coincidence.\n \nAh the price of arrogance ;- ). He had to demand a demonstration of power from Severian. If Typhon \nhad summoned Severian and asked him nicely for some help with his nerve grafts, he might have gotten it. \nMoreover if he'd asked Severian nicely to be his regent on Urth, in the future, he might have gotten that \nalso (Severian is no Jesus and the Thecla within him desired a throne). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You forget that Severian had already met Typhon and knew what kind of \npower Typhon would represent.\nBy the way, the scene in the skill of the Typhon's monument (the \nmountain) in \"the Sword of the Lictor\"\nhas also a biblical parallel - Devil tempting Jesus in the desert. Devil \nhad taken Jesus to the top of\na mountain etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDCE5AE.5080406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T11:19:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "<4DDCDFDA.4070802@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee:\nI think it was Sergei (in his other\nguise) who used to complain about too many JW's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no other guise here! I am one of the \"resident russian professors\"\nmentioned in some other posting - I work in France (since 1998),\nand I know Jerry Friedman due to Nabokov List. You can find me easily\n(with references to some math papers) via google." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can one have too many JWs? Really? Think about it.\n\nI think I remember who thought there were too many JWs and when he left \nthe list he invited me to friend him on Facebook.\nBut his profile said \"Those Who wish to interact with Me should be aware \nthat I do not consider it in any way wrong, and May choose, to \nphysically Harm those who insult Me.\" I had already felt too close to \nhim, so I decided to remove one more JW from his intimate circle.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDCE896.2040109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T11:31:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "<4DDCDFDA.4070802@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei:\nBy the way, the scene in the skill of the Typhon's monument (the \nmountain) in \"the Sword of the Lictor\"\nhas also a biblical parallel - Devil tempting Jesus in the desert. \nDevil had taken Jesus to the top of\na mountain etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, Typhon offered Severian food (although Severian takes it \nunJesus-like) and dangled him over the precipice.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T12:43:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "<4DDCE896.2040109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: We know that there are many biblical parallels. Ceryx corresponds rather \nto Simon the Magus, who had a magical contest with St. Peter....By the way, the scene in the \nskill of the Typhon's monument (the mountain) in \"the Sword of the Lictor\"\nhas also a biblical parallel - Devil tempting Jesus in the desert. Devil had taken Jesus to \nthe top of a mountain etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't see how the Biblical parallels undermine my view of the connection between Ceryx and \nTyphon. I would say they bolster them. We have a Severian-Typhon encounter which echoes Jesus\nand The Devil. A Severian-Ceryx encounter which echoes Peter and Simon Magus. So, as Peter\nserved Jesus, (and perhaps Simon Magus served The Devil), it isn't a stretch to conclude Ceryx\nserved Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian thinks that while he travelled to Yesod, Ceryx probably travelled to some other \"dark\" \nworlds. So Ceryx is compared (and opposed) to Severian in his humanity, he is not an \"alien\" like \nFather Inire. He is a sort of potential Antichrist who fails miserably before developing his full \npower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFirst, I can't see travel to dark worlds as evidence for humanity. Quite the opposite. In my view,\nSeverian's comparison should be taken more celestially. As Yesod (heaven analog) is the universe \nhigher than Severian's, I think he implies Ceryx has been to Abaddon (hell analog), the universe\nwhich is lower than Severian's. Again, a Typhon/Devil connection for Ceryx. \n \nPlus, as has been discussed previously, there is much in the text to suggest Father Inire's power is \ndark and monstrous in origin. Moreover, he is a small, twisted, long-lived alien, who is highly\ninvolved in the intimate workings of the Commonwealth. He is the exact opposite of the tall, \nbeautiful, short-lived, angelic Hierodules (B,F & O) who keep their distance from humanity. Again,\nthe implication, for me, is that Inire is a fallen version of these angels. Hence another link between\nInire and Ceryx.\n \nSecond, I am not so sure Severian really is 100% human. His ancestry is quite deliberately masked, \nand we have a mysterious alien who is labelled \"Father\" but seems to have no religious function.\nPast discussions outline the elusive evidence I see that Inire is Dorcas' husband and thus Severian's\ngrandfather. Moreover I've argued that over and over in legend, it is the \"half-breed\" who serves as\nThe Conciliator between Man and God(s). Hercules and Jesus are fine examples. (It is for this reason\nI like James' theory of the tripartite nature of that other Wolfe Conciliator, Silkhorn) \n \n(hm...the Antichrist is supposed to be a half-breed also, yes?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You forget the details - the group of soldiers had no intention and no order to take Severian to Typhon \nat the moment of his arrest. If not his miraculous powers, he would die - they had beaten him mercilessly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If their purpose had been to kill him, they would have just shot him (like bin Laden?). They were clearly \ngoing for a capture and a trip to the torturers for questioning. Somebody wanted information from Severian, \nnot just his elimination. I can agree that Typhon's immediate attention and audience was called from \nSeverian's recovery from the Disruptor at the Citadel more than the previous rumors, and I'll adjust my \ntheory accordingly!\n \n \np.s. apologies for the misidentification. Plus I'm glad James is safe from the physical violence\nthreatened by that other guy :- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD04A9.8000106@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-25T13:31:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Lee," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: We know that there are many biblical parallels. Ceryx corresponds rather \nto Simon the Magus, who had a magical contest with St. Peter....By the way, the scene in the \nskill of the Typhon's monument (the mountain) in \"the Sword of the Lictor\"\nhas also a biblical parallel - Devil tempting Jesus in the desert. Devil had taken Jesus to \nthe top of a mountain etc.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI don't see how the Biblical parallels undermine my view of the connection between Ceryx and \nTyphon. I would say they bolster them. We have a Severian-Typhon encounter which echoes Jesus\nand The Devil. A Severian-Ceryx encounter which echoes Peter and Simon Magus. So, as Peter\nserved Jesus, (and perhaps Simon Magus served The Devil), it isn't a stretch to conclude Ceryx\nserved Typhon\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a connection between Ceryx and Typhon as it is between any \nevildoer and\nthe Diable. (But Typhon to me is not Diable, only more powerful \nrepresentative.)\nWhat I object, is that Ceryx is a direct subordinate, and can \ncommunicate directly\nwith Typhon. There is no proof of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian thinks that while he travelled to Yesod, Ceryx probably travelled to some other \"dark\" \nworlds. So Ceryx is compared (and opposed) to Severian in his humanity, he is not an \"alien\" like \nFather Inire. He is a sort of potential Antichrist who fails miserably before developing his full \npower.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nFirst, I can't see travel to dark worlds as evidence for humanity. Quite the opposite. In my view,\nSeverian's comparison should be taken more celestially. As Yesod (heaven analog) is the universe \nhigher than Severian's, I think he implies Ceryx has been to Abaddon (hell analog), the universe\nwhich is lower than Severian's. Again, a Typhon/Devil connection for Ceryx. \n \nPlus, as has been discussed previously, there is much in the text to suggest Father Inire's power is \ndark and monstrous in origin. Moreover, he is a small, twisted, long-lived alien, who is highly\ninvolved in the intimate workings of the Commonwealth. He is the exact opposite of the tall, \nbeautiful, short-lived, angelic Hierodules (B,F & O) who keep their distance from humanity. Again,\nthe implication, for me, is that Inire is a fallen version of these angels. Hence another link between\nInire and Ceryx." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And with all his power he cannot find Dorcas (who, as you believe, was \nhis wife!)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nSecond, I am not so sure Severian really is 100% human. His ancestry is quite deliberately masked, \nand we have a mysterious alien who is labelled \"Father\" but seems to have no religious function.\nPast discussions outline the elusive evidence I see that Inire is Dorcas' husband and thus Severian's\ngrandfather. Moreover I've argued that over and over in legend, it is the \"half-breed\" who serves as\nThe Conciliator between Man and God(s). Hercules and Jesus are fine examples. (It is for this reason\nI like James' theory of the tripartite nature of that other Wolfe Conciliator, Silkhorn) \n \n(hm...the Antichrist is supposed to be a half-breed also, yes?)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me, in Wolfe's books is very important the brilliant rendering of \nhuman psychology\nand human existential problems. The presence of aliens, miracles, strange\nworld serve this purpose. What you are trying to do, is to transform \neverything\ninto myth about demi-gods, aliens etc and if you push it to the extreme, \nit will\nhave for me no human interest. Look - the old guy looking for Cas is \ninteresting\nbecause it is a poor old guy, living in a slum and looking for his lost \nwife and love\nall fifty years or so. If he is father Inire in disguise - it is not \ninteresting.\nThe Old Autarch is interesting because he is a weak old guy castrated by\naliens and he suffers. He failed as a representative of Humankind. He\nwould be not interesting, if he would himself be an alien. What\na castrated alien means, anyway? There is\nno interesting psychology of aliens in the Book of the New Sun. They are the\n\"data\", the powers, the symbols, but living characters are human. There \nis no\npsychology of Abaia or Scylla or Mother because it didn't interest \nWolfe. Baldanders\nis human in his way to something else, in transformation, and as such he\nis interesting. Doctor Talos is his \"homunculus\", probably clone, and in \nthis also\nhuman. Apheta in Yesod has no psychology, Tzadkiel - no, nothing \ninteresting.\nMaybe, from catholic (Wolfe's) point of view, they are not interesting \nbecause they have\nno soul.\n\nI think to some extent I understand the purpose of Wolfe and this is why \nI admire\nhim - and what you try to prove seems to me directly opposite to his \npurpose.\n(Instead of discovering human side in myths you try to erase human part and\nsee only mythic.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You forget the details - the group of soldiers had no intention and no order to take Severian to Typhon \nat the moment of his arrest. If not his miraculous powers, he would die - they had beaten him mercilessly.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If their purpose had been to kill him, they would have just shot him (like bin Laden?). They were clearly \ngoing for a capture and a trip to the torturers for questioning. Somebody wanted information from Severian, \nnot just his elimination. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They just wanted to follow the rules - they didn't mind to kill him, \notherwise\nthey would beat him less, how they could know that he will survive and \nrecover?\nThey had no purpose of their own - it was totalitarian society - they \nhad their\norders! Arrest, and if he will die of beating - well... If they had \norders to\nkeep him alive whatever the price, they risked severe punishment themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can agree that Typhon's immediate attention and audience was called from \nSeverian's recovery from the Disruptor at the Citadel more than the previous rumors, and I'll adjust my \ntheory accordingly!\n \n \np.s. apologies for the misidentification. Plus I'm glad James is safe from the physical violence\nthreatened by that other guy :- ). \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD0EBC.4080307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T14:14:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD04A9.8000106@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/25/2011 8:31 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nLook - the old guy looking for Cas is interesting\nbecause it is a poor old guy, living in a slum and looking for his \nlost wife and love\nall fifty years or so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always found it interesting that the old guy and Ouen appeared so \nestranged. That's the other thing that throws people. Yeah, Ouen is \nDorcas' son, but is that old guy really Ouen's father? Severian tells \nOuen about Dorcas, but there's no record of him telling the poor old \nfart who's trolling for her body.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<614653.8440.qm@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T14:21:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD9CC75.1080209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman:\nOkay, is there an objection to the idea that the \"megatherian\" human rulers \nwere\nearly rulers of Ascia? We don't know why 17, but if there are 17 sea \ncreatures, we don't know why that\nnumber either. (Other than the reference to the Politburo in either case, \nor\nthe speculations in my previous post.)\n\nIt's true that the relation of the present \"Group of 17\" to these \nhypothetical\n17 founders is vague, but so is the relation of the present \"Group of 17\" to \nthe\nhypothetical 17 sea creatures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, my objection is this.\n\nIt seems to me we agree that the term \"megatherian\" is *related* to the giant \nalien powers--because Abaia is called a \"Great Beast\". The only doubt is \nwhether the term refers _directly_ to the alien powers.\n\nThe \"17 stones\" and \"the Group of 17\" are enumerated by human choice. Someone \ndecided they should be that number. That leaves only the \"17 megatherians\" \n_possibly_ NOT being humanly enumerated. So unless the number 17 is derived \nfrom some source unnamed in the book, it seems most likely that the 17 \nMegatherians is the source of the other two.\n\nTrue, it could be that 17 Megatherians and the Group of 17 are somehow \nequivalent (getting their name from an association with the alien powers). But \nthat just adds a level of complication. You have to suppose why the group of 17 \ngot that name, how the government of the Ascians led to a tradition in the \nCommonwealth, and any additional issues of speculation.\n\nOn the other hand, if one accepts that alien powers number 17 and are called \nMegatherians because they are \"like great beasts\", then the selection of the \nnumber 17 elsewhere is self-explanatory.\n\nIt is marginally easier (given the reference to Abaia as a Great Beast) to \ndecide the alien powers are the Megatherians." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThanks for the reply. I think we'll have to disagree on what is simpler and \nwhat is more complicated, what is self-explanatory and what is a puzzle. But we \nseem to agree that the difference between these two speculations isn't great.\n\nOn a related subject, thanks to Nick Gevers for bringing up the \"Group of \nSeventeen\" that ran the Dutch East India Company.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<56C6E011D345413F800247790741678E@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-25T14:59:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The story of the Boy Called Frog, which clearly originates in \na synthesis of\nRomulus and Remus combined with The Jungle Book, has also incorporated\nsnippets of other mythologies and of ways that people of one era would \nhave\nunderstood things of the past...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nice response, Gerry! I would agree with most of it. I agree that if Ymar \nis meant to be Frog\nit was a contrivance made for UotNS only. It would involve Wolfe saying, \n\"okay, I've included\na historical view of Typhon but who can I add to show that Frog was also a \nreal\nhistorical figure...hm..who founded the Commonwealth...ah! Ymar." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But UotNS didn't exist at the time, and wasn't intended. In my view, there \nis no substantive evidence that either Typhon or Ymar play any role in the \nTale of the Boy Called Frog. I have said that I could imagine in principle \nthat Spring Wind could contain echoes of Typhon, but I don't see any real \nindication that he does. Mars is Spring, and Spring Wind has all the \ncharacteristics of Mars. All you and James have to go on is 'Wind' (pun \nunavoidable). My view is that \"Spring\" was simply too short and cryptic a \nname, too obviously fraught with symbolism. So Wolfe added the second word, \nwhich can allude both to the life-giving rain-bearing wind of Spring and the \ndestructive winds of war. The first was Early Summer's intention, the \nsecond was the interpretation of Spring Wind's men. And if there is any \nincorporarion of Typhon in the story, a pun on 'Typhoon' here is probably \nthe extent of it., i.e. a historical general whose name sounds a bit like \n'Wind'. In general the history and behaviour of Spring Wind are those of \nMars, cleaving quite close to the traditions of the original story - and not \nat all those of Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is of course a strong echo here of the idea of bees with swords, \nwhich was the concept of\nbees held by the people immured for generations in the Antechamber. \nPerhaps Wolfe is suggesting\nthat the tales were transmitted via some antechamber folk who found their \nway out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's possible. A good idea. But the story of wolves carrying knives might \nalso be akin to the\nstories we hear of lower animals developing versions of human speech and \nwriting. Or it could be a\ndegenerate, wolf-like group of humans who retain manual dexterity. Or it \ncould be that Frog was raised\nby a human group known as the Wolf Clan and the tales converted them to \ntheir namesake." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. But the idea of the natural weapons of animals being mistaken for \nknives and swords is not exactly common, so the coincidence is interesting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But you are correct in thinking it doesn't matter too much. What matters \nis that we get the interactive\nrelationship between reality, history and mythology. I think you've denied \nthat relationship as relevant\nto Wolfe's writing in the past but perhaps there is a growing awareness of \nhow essential it is for\nunderstanding. Your quick switch from denial of Jungle Book influence on \nthe Frog story to assimilation\nwas impressive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I have pointed out already, I did NOT at any point deny the influenceof \nthe Jungle Book on elements of the entirety of the Tale of the Boy Named \nFrog. What I said was that the Jungle Book influence was centred on the \nSenate of Wolves section, in which Frog doesn't really play a role, and the \nstory of Frog himself derives almost in its entirety from that of Romulus. \nI have accepted that two elements of the Jungle Book did become entwined \nmore with Frog than I realised, i.e. his name apparently comes from Mowgli, \nwhich I had not known, and the idea of the Red Flower in the Jungle Book. \n[In fact, in both cases Wolfe has mixed both tales - the Red Flower is mixed \nwith the Magic Flower of the original Romulus story, and the alliteration of \nRomulus and Remus is preserved in the names Frog and Fish.]\n\nIf you want an idea I abandoned quickly, look to my idea that Spring Wind \nwas Hercules and the flower was Zeus. I dropped that quickly when Andrew \npointed out the significance of the flower in the traditional story of Mars. \nOn consideration, it became clear that Spring Wind is Mars, not Hercules.\n\nBut yes, the point of the Tale of the Boy Called Frog is largely about the \nrelationship between history and mythology, and about how stories mutate \nwith successive tellings and yet remain the same. What it is not, in my \nview, is some cypher encoding a secret history of Urth, to be unlocked by \nall manner of wordplay and far-fetched analogies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We cannot reject Typhon as Spring Wind arguments on account of the absence \nof two-headedness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct, but not for the reason you suggest. On the Whorl, Typhon's \ntwo-headedness is common knowlege.\nNot so on Urth. It was a recent development and a deep secret. Thus Spring \nWind (the youthful, sober\nthoughtful Alexander) would never have two heads in legends that \ncirculated on Urth. It is the wind\nallusions and the youth/older life history of Alexander which connect \nSpring Wind and Typhon, not heads." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe so. [Though I suspect Wolfe would have used the two-headed \niconography widely had he thought of it; clearly, however, it only came to \nhim when he started BotLS.] As for Alexander, I don't know why you are \ndragging him into the story. I see no relevance at all except that he as \nsome random great general from history; unlike Typhon, his history does not \neven have the virtue of being relatively recent to Severian's time. The \nAlexander idea seems particularly bizarre when you consider that Alexander \nis already dust. Perhaps he is already embedded to some degree in the story \nof Romulus that has come to us from Roman times. But if not, it's hard to \nsee why he should be added chiliads from now. Possible, yes. Supported, \ndoubtful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there a 1000 year old witch in BotNS? None that is human, I believe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't say \"human\" witch. If Ymar and twin sister are descendents of \nTyphon can we be sure the whole\nfamily is (fully) human? I don't think so. Since I question whether \nSeverian is fully human, I don't have\nmuch of a problem asking the same question about Ymar. Morover a \nsnake-essense daughter of Typhon fits\nrather nicely with his mythological namesake. Wouldn't the snaky Cumaean \nmake a nice sister or half-sister\nto snaky Scylla?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no evidence that any of these characters are not, at the very \nleast, substantially and overtly human, apart from the Cumaean, who is \napparently old but may or may not be very ancient but in any case is well \nknown to be a cagogen like Inire. It just amounts to another variant on \nyour \"everybody might be everybody else, every theory is equally valid\" \nconcept of literary analysis. Anyway, this idea can easily be nipped in the \nbud by remembering that if Ymar had a twin sister, she would have been \nserving with him in the Matachin Tower. Women were not barred from the \nTorturers' Guild until an edict of Ymar's, after he became Autarch. Take \nnote of the sadistic Madame Prefect in UotNS - she may be a nod to the \nreasons why." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for Inire, if I recall correctly he is said in BotNS to date from the \ntime of Ymar" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my view that is when he started using the name \"Inire\". But in UotNS, \nSeverian rather inexplicably\nencounters a real wizard/necromancer named Ceryx. Immediately after their \nencounter, Severian is captured\nand brought in front of the highly sequestered Typhon. Rather than dismiss \nCeryx as a one-off, I think he\nis the vizier (and magic investigator) for Typhon. In other words, he is \nInire, serving in the same\ncapacity that he will serve the Autarchs.\n\nIn my view, most of Severian's adventures (Dorcas, Sanguinary Fields, \nVodalus/Thecla, Old Leech etc.) are\npieces set up by this necromancer to try to winnow from him the secret of \ntrue resurrection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I prefer the book Wolfe wrote.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD2617.5000208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T15:53:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/25/2011 7:43 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n(hm...the Antichrist is supposed to be a half-breed also, yes?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only in that he has to be superficially Christlike to fool the masses." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD26D3.1050105@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T15:57:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD0EBC.4080307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/25/2011 9:14 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 5/25/2011 8:31 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Look - the old guy looking for Cas is interesting\nbecause it is a poor old guy, living in a slum and looking for his\nlost wife and love\nall fifty years or so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always found it interesting that the old guy and Ouen appeared so\nestranged. That's the other thing that throws people. Yeah, Ouen is\nDorcas' son, but is that old guy really Ouen's father? Severian tells\nOuen about Dorcas, but there's no record of him telling the poor old\nfart who's trolling for her body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev sees that the old fart has died before he got around to telling him." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD359A.6090908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T17:00:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD26D3.1050105@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I always found it interesting that the old guy and Ouen appeared so\nestranged. That's the other thing that throws people. Yeah, Ouen is\nDorcas' son, but is that old guy really Ouen's father? Severian tells\nOuen about Dorcas, but there's no record of him telling the poor old\nfart who's trolling for her body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson:\nSev sees that the old fart has died before he got around to telling him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn:\nYeah, but Sev is a Time-traveler. This is his grandfather after all. \nGranted, Severian doesn't tell us everything.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T17:05:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD359A.6090908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nYeah, but Sev is a Time-traveler. This is his grandfather after all.\nGranted, Severian doesn't tell us everything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, no. I don't see Sev travelling down the timestream to tell the\nold man, \"Hey, Grampa, you know Gramma? Well, I screwed her all the\nway to Thrax.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton IO", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T17:22:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wed, 25 May 2011 10:05:49 -0700, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\nwrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, but Sev is a Time-traveler. This is his grandfather after all.\nGranted, Severian doesn't tell us everything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, no. I don't see Sev travelling down the timestream to tell the\nold man, \"Hey, Grampa, you know Gramma? Well, I screwed her all the\nway to Thrax.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Particularly since given Wolfe's admitted liking of filk and folk, and the\npresence of multiple iterations of Severian, he almost certainly *is* his\nown grandpa.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD3FD4.3050006@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T17:43:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn:\nYeah, but Sev is a Time-traveler. This is his grandfather after all.\nGranted, Severian doesn't tell us everything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes:\nYeah, no. I don't see Sev travelling down the timestream to tell the\nold man, \"Hey, Grampa, you know Gramma? Well, I screwed her all the\nway to Thrax.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt that information would have gone over any better with Ouen. Sev \nmaneuvered nicely around that bit of doo-dah and even the fact that he \nwas his son in case it came up.\n\nIncidentally, even though Agia does not sell out of the same shop as \nSevs grandparents, she and her brother _are_ shopkeepers. And there is \nthis bit of juxtapositioning in Citadel:\n\n\"Another man, living in the midst of millions, may be\nalone, because there are none but enemies and victims around him.\nAgia, whom I might have loved, has chosen instead to become a\nfemale Vodalus, taking all that lives most fully in humanity as her\nopponent. I, who might have loved *Agia*, who loved *Dorcas* deeply\nbut perhaps not deeply enough, was now alone because I had\nbecome a part of her past, which she loved better than she had ever\n(except, I think, at first) loved me.\"\n\nSo, I think that those that speculate that the two might be related are \nnot at sea without jib or anchor.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T17:44:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<56C6E011D345413F800247790741678E@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I prefer the book Wolfe wrote." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't be a butthole , Gerry. Whom does your sarcasm benefit? The book Gene Wolfe\nwrote contains characters such as Vodalus, Hildegren, The Cumaean and the Old Leech\nand Ceryx who are tied together by the theme of necromancy. If you don't see this connecting\ntheme that's fine. But I feel no need to mock you nor to insinuate you must be\nreading a Stephen King novel to have missed it. Perhaps you could dampen your lively\ncritical spirits just enough to show respect for others, eh, wot? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0AB36763-B527-4DE0-9570-9D740C11962B@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T18:21:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 25/05/2011, ?s 18:44, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I feel no need to mock you" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Should we assume it's been unintentional the dozen odd times you've seemed to try it before?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T18:43:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD3FD4.3050006@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV: To me, in Wolfe's books is very important the brilliant rendering of \nhuman psychology and human existential problems. The presence of aliens, miracles, strange\nworld serve this purpose. What you are trying to do, is to transform everything\ninto myth about demi-gods, aliens etc and if you push it to the extreme, it will\nhave for me no human interest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis is a very personal objection to my view, Sergei and I respect it. I wouldn't try to \ndiminish your enjoyment of Wolfe's work by insisting my view is in any way superior to \nyours or others.\n \nI will say this. I spent quite a few years enjoying BotNS simply as a wonderful SF/Fantasy \nstory and a pleasant excursion within the thoughts of a passably bright heroic figure who\nonly partially understands what is going on around him as he engages in a series of planetary \nand cosmic adventures. But I always felt there was more to it, which is why I came to this \nList.\n \nThe ideas found here and in a study of Gene Wolfe interviews have also lead me to view the \nstory from a psychological perspective. But not my personal psychology nor some generic\nview of the psychology of all humanity. Aside from my initial enjoyment of this story, my\ninterest is very specifically in the psychology of Gene Wolfe. What motivated him to write\nthis story (and others) the way he did? Though I don't expect all other to agree with my \nconclusions, I think my posts are best interpreted if my true goal is understood.\n \nMy broad conclusions are that Gene Wolfe is a very religious man, but not in the traditional\nCatholic sense. I think he (like Rudesind) is an advocate for the dead, meaning that he \nconsiders the ancients to have been just as smart and aware of reality as we are today. Thus\nthe mythology of the past was simply the best way our ancestors had to describe their world\nand our current religions (including Catholocism) are neither better nor worse than Greek or \nNorse mythology in describing cosmic/divine reality. Thus the pagan gods are, in some sense, \nreal.\n \nI believe (again, from interviews) that Wolfe did not intend Urth to be Earth but rather sort\nof a parallel place a...\"gnostic parody of Earth\" is how David recently put it. A place where\nthere was no Jesus, resulting in the primacy of mythological sorts of beings rather than \nChristianity. I think it is meant to be unclear whether Earth legends of people like \"Typhon\" \nare the result of earthian analogs or the leaking of mythology from Urth to Earth. Doesn't \nmatter. They are real somewhere.\n \nDoes it diminish human psychology and experience if we find there are longer-lived, more \npowerful, more intelligent, more sighted, perceptive beings than we? I don't think so, nor does \nWolfe, I think. It isn't that \"aliens\" have no psychology. But rather that their thinking is \nboth too different and too superior for humans to grasp. I think we get enough conversation from\nInire, The Cumaean, B, F and O, and Tzadkiel (and The Mother, and Neighbors and Inhumi) to grasp \na bit of their psychology. But if the idea ruins BotNS for you, then it is an idea you should \nscrap.\n \n \nOkay, specifics objections-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei: Look - the old guy looking for Cas is interesting because it is a poor old guy, living in \na slum and looking for his lost wife and love all fifty years or so. If he is father Inire in \ndisguise - it is not interesting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, tastes differ. The Gene Wolfe quote below suggests to me that it would be interesting to him" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: in fact there is one place in the Acts where Paul and another one of the apostles are mistaken...\nfor Zeus and Hermes in human form because people in those days expected that you could see Zeus and \nHermes in human form. I am not so sure they were wrong. I am not convinced that they were wrong. We \nlove to think how much smarter we are than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but \nI am very dubious about that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei: The Old Autarch is interesting because he is a weak old guy castrated by aliens and he suffers. \nHe failed as a representative of Humankind. He would be not interesting, if he would himself be an alien." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe failure of the old Autarch is never really explained. He seems be everything Severian is: a servant to\nthe Throne elevated to Autarch, he has the memories of all the previous Autarchs, he is a kindly and decent\ngood-hearted guy. He fights the Ascians, he cooperates with Father Inire. Why does he fail?\n \nMy explanation is that he is too human to be the New Sun. To be the New Sun one needs a super-human\ncapacity for energy, which Severian shows. And one needs to be both Son of Man and Son of God(s). A\nhalf-breed as I think Severian, like other Conciliators of legend, is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei- And with all his (Inire's) power he cannot find Dorcas (who, as you believe, was his wife!)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo. Just the opposite. I think Inire knows exactly where Dorcas' body is. He has arranged this meeting\nwith a purpose. No accident that another seeker of dead bodies is also there (Hildegrin). Of all the \nthousands of bodies which might float up and be resurrected by Severian, the one that arrives\nis Dorcas? Not a coincidence. What I think Inire (like Ceryx, like Tzadkiel even) cannot do is a true\nresurrection. That power is reserved for a Christ-figure. And I think Inire hopes to both use Severian's\nnascent power of resurrection on his long-dead wife and to learn how to use it himself.\n \n \n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T18:45:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(hm...the Antichrist is supposed to be a half-breed also, yes?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Only in that he has to be superficially Christlike to fool the masses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nHm. Isn't the Antichrist supposed to be the son of Satan and some mortal woman? Or\nhave I been watching too many errant movies? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<094956B2-8998-47DA-A3D2-BDBAAA5327D9@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T18:59:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As best I can recall, there is tenuous Biblical support for the idea of an Antichrist as an evil Jesus type. 2nd John or something mentions many \"anti-Christs\" arising, in the sense of there being many opposed to Jesus, and Christian eschatological writings talks of a \"beast from the land\" who preaches false prophecy during armageddon, but the popular, Damien-like Antichrist figure is pure fantasy. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 25, 2011, at 1:45 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(hm...the Antichrist is supposed to be a half-breed also, yes?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Only in that he has to be superficially Christlike to fool the masses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. Isn't the Antichrist supposed to be the son of Satan and some mortal woman? Or\nhave I been watching too many errant movies? \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T18:59:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<0AB36763-B527-4DE0-9570-9D740C11962B@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I feel no need to mock you" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio- Should we assume it's been unintentional the dozen odd times you've seemed to \ntry it before?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps I should have said \"mock your intelligence\". I am not by nature a mocking or sarcastic \nsort of person. My guess is that any disparaging remark made by me toward Gerry has been in regard \nto his mean spirit not his intelligence.\n \nBut the record is electronically engraved. YOu may check. Perhaps there are examples to be found of \nme suggesing that Gerry is unintelligent, as he suggests of others, (e.g. implying I do not know which \nbook or author I am reading and discussing). If I have ever done that, even in response to the same, I \napologize.\n \n(p.s. I have no intention of continuing the discussion. It went on far too long in the past) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T19:08:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Gerry Quinn\" \nBut UotNS didn't exist at the time, and wasn't intended. In my view,\nthere\nis no substantive evidence that either Typhon or Ymar play any role in the\nTale of the Boy Called Frog. I have said that I could imagine in\nprinciple\nthat Spring Wind could contain echoes of Typhon, but I don't see any real\nindication that he does. Mars is Spring, and Spring Wind has all the\ncharacteristics of Mars. All you and James have to go on is 'Wind' (pun\nunavoidable). My view is that \"Spring\" was simply too short and cryptic a\nname, too obviously fraught with symbolism. So Wolfe added the second\nword,\nwhich can allude both to the life-giving rain-bearing wind of Spring and\nthe\ndestructive winds of war. The first was Early Summer's intention, the\nsecond was the interpretation of Spring Wind's men. And if there is any\nincorporarion of Typhon in the story, a pun on 'Typhoon' here is probably\nthe extent of it., i.e. a historical general whose name sounds a bit like\n'Wind'. In general the history and behaviour of Spring Wind are those of\nMars, cleaving quite close to the traditions of the original story - and\nnot\nat all those of Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly the tale of Mars, Romuls, and Remus, lends a lot to \"The Tale of\nthe Boy Called Frog.\" I don't know whether or not Andre-Druissi first came\nup with this bizarre derivation for \"Spring Wind,\" but Wolfe didn't need to\nmake it up. \"Spring Wind\" refers to a completely different deity. I believe\nthat Wolfe intends this connection. He certainly alludes to it in UotNS, and\nthere may be a connection with \"The Tale of the Master and His Student,\" you\nknow, *Thesis*.\n\nCertainly these stories can have multiple meanings. I don't think they are\nsimply there to fill the pages, and they may help in understanding the books\nthey inhabit.\n\nFor a while, I thought Frog might refer to Severian and Fish to Baldanders.\nOne being liminal and capable of living on land and underwater, the other\neventually growing too large/evil to survive on land. It also solves the\nSevera problem if Baldanders is Severian's brother (or sister. . .\nBaldanders as transgendered: soon another), but I don't think there's enough\ntextual evidence to make this connection. It's just a fun theory for now.\nAlso, Borges's Baldanders has the tale of a fish. Some species of fish\nchange their sex. So do some Frogs, but Severian is a known bisexual. Also\nconsider Typhon. He could be Spring Wind, but in an allegorical sense he is\nonly *trying* to be. Spring Wind has more heads, for instance. Severian is\nthe one who succeeds in becoming an avatar of that deity.\n\nJust some thoughts.\n\n-Nick" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD5BB4.9030100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T19:42:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now my interest is peaked. At first I thought you were thinking of \nZephyrus. I think Wolfe *did* riff on that in The Book of the Long Sun. \nBut the comment about having a lot of heads suggests you mean someone else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/25/2011 2:08 PM, Nick Lee wrote:\nCertainly the tale of Mars, Romuls, and Remus, lends a lot to \"The \nTale of the Boy Called Frog.\" I don't know whether or not \nAndre-Druissi first came up with this bizarre derivation for \"Spring \nWind,\" but Wolfe didn't need to make it up. \"Spring Wind\" refers to a \ncompletely different deity. I believe that Wolfe intends this \nconnection. He certainly alludes to it in UotNS, and there may be a \nconnection with \"The Tale of the Master and His Student,\" you know, \n/Thesis/.\n\nCertainly these stories can have multiple meanings. I don't think they \nare simply there to fill the pages, and they may help in understanding \nthe books they inhabit.\n\nFor a while, I thought Frog might refer to Severian and Fish to \nBaldanders. One being liminal and capable of living on land and \nunderwater, the other eventually growing too large/evil to survive on \nland. It also solves the Severa problem if Baldanders is Severian's \nbrother (or sister. . . Baldanders as transgendered: soon another), \nbut I don't think there's enough textual evidence to make this \nconnection. It's just a fun theory for now. Also, Borges's Baldanders \nhas the tale of a fish. Some species of fish change their sex. So do \nsome Frogs, but Severian is a known bisexual. Also consider Typhon. He \ncould be Spring Wind, but in an allegorical sense he is only /trying/ \nto be. Spring Wind has more heads, for instance. Severian is the one \nwho succeeds in becoming an avatar of that deity." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD5BC1.6000103@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-25T19:42:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly respect your point of view but I am not convinced -\n\nBest regards\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV: To me, in Wolfe's books is very important the brilliant rendering of \nhuman psychology and human existential problems. The presence of aliens, miracles, strange\nworld serve this purpose. What you are trying to do, is to transform everything\ninto myth about demi-gods, aliens etc and if you push it to the extreme, it will\nhave for me no human interest.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nThis is a very personal objection to my view, Sergei and I respect it. I wouldn't try to \ndiminish your enjoyment of Wolfe's work by insisting my view is in any way superior to \nyours or others.\n \nI will say this. I spent quite a few years enjoying BotNS simply as a wonderful SF/Fantasy \nstory and a pleasant excursion within the thoughts of a passably bright heroic figure who\nonly partially understands what is going on around him as he engages in a series of planetary \nand cosmic adventures. But I always felt there was more to it, which is why I came to this \nList.\n \nThe ideas found here and in a study of Gene Wolfe interviews have also lead me to view the \nstory from a psychological perspective. But not my personal psychology nor some generic\nview of the psychology of all humanity. Aside from my initial enjoyment of this story, my\ninterest is very specifically in the psychology of Gene Wolfe. What motivated him to write\nthis story (and others) the way he did? Though I don't expect all other to agree with my \nconclusions, I think my posts are best interpreted if my true goal is understood.\n \nMy broad conclusions are that Gene Wolfe is a very religious man, but not in the traditional\nCatholic sense. I think he (like Rudesind) is an advocate for the dead, meaning that he \nconsiders the ancients to have been just as smart and aware of reality as we are today. Thus\nthe mythology of the past was simply the best way our ancestors had to describe their world\nand our current religions (including Catholocism) are neither better nor worse than Greek or \nNorse mythology in describing cosmic/divine reality. Thus the pagan gods are, in some sense, \nreal.\n \nI believe (again, from interviews) that Wolfe did not intend Urth to be Earth but rather sort\nof a parallel place a...\"gnostic parody of Earth\" is how David recently put it. A place where\nthere was no Jesus, resulting in the primacy of mythological sorts of beings rather than \nChristianity. I think it is meant to be unclear whether Earth legends of people like \"Typhon\" \nare the result of earthian analogs or the leaking of mythology from Urth to Earth. Doesn't \nmatter. They are real somewhere.\n \nDoes it diminish human psychology and experience if we find there are longer-lived, more \npowerful, more intelligent, more sighted, perceptive beings than we? I don't think so, nor does \nWolfe, I think. It isn't that \"aliens\" have no psychology. But rather that their thinking is \nboth too different and too superior for humans to grasp. I think we get enough conversation from\nInire, The Cumaean, B, F and O, and Tzadkiel (and The Mother, and Neighbors and Inhumi) to grasp \na bit of their psychology. But if the idea ruins BotNS for you, then it is an idea you should \nscrap.\n \n \nOkay, specifics objections-\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei: Look - the old guy looking for Cas is interesting because it is a poor old guy, living in \na slum and looking for his lost wife and love all fifty years or so. If he is father Inire in \ndisguise - it is not interesting.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, tastes differ. The Gene Wolfe quote below suggests to me that it would be interesting to him\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: in fact there is one place in the Acts where Paul and another one of the apostles are mistaken...\nfor Zeus and Hermes in human form because people in those days expected that you could see Zeus and \nHermes in human form. I am not so sure they were wrong. I am not convinced that they were wrong. We \nlove to think how much smarter we are than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but \nI am very dubious about that.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei: The Old Autarch is interesting because he is a weak old guy castrated by aliens and he suffers. \nHe failed as a representative of Humankind. He would be not interesting, if he would himself be an alien.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nThe failure of the old Autarch is never really explained. He seems be everything Severian is: a servant to\nthe Throne elevated to Autarch, he has the memories of all the previous Autarchs, he is a kindly and decent\ngood-hearted guy. He fights the Ascians, he cooperates with Father Inire. Why does he fail?\n \nMy explanation is that he is too human to be the New Sun. To be the New Sun one needs a super-human\ncapacity for energy, which Severian shows. And one needs to be both Son of Man and Son of God(s). A\nhalf-breed as I think Severian, like other Conciliators of legend, is.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei- And with all his (Inire's) power he cannot find Dorcas (who, as you believe, was his wife!).\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nNo. Just the opposite. I think Inire knows exactly where Dorcas' body is. He has arranged this meeting\nwith a purpose. No accident that another seeker of dead bodies is also there (Hildegrin). Of all the \nthousands of bodies which might float up and be resurrected by Severian, the one that arrives\nis Dorcas? Not a coincidence. What I think Inire (like Ceryx, like Tzadkiel even) cannot do is a true\nresurrection. That power is reserved for a Christ-figure. And I think Inire hopes to both use Severian's\nnascent power of resurrection on his long-dead wife and to learn how to use it himself.\n \n \n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD63CE.7010803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T20:17:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD5BB4.9030100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nick Lee:\nCertainly the tale of Mars, Romuls, and Remus, lends a lot to \"The \nTale of the Boy Called Frog.\" I don't know whether or not \nAndre-Druissi first came up with this bizarre derivation for \"Spring \nWind,\" but Wolfe didn't need to make it up. \"Spring Wind\" refers to a \ncompletely different deity. I believe that Wolfe intends this \nconnection. He certainly alludes to it in UotNS, and there may be a \nconnection with \"The Tale of the Master and His Student,\" you know, \n/Thesis/." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he does intend a connection. It is not for nothing that the \nStudent's end is so similar to Typhon's. He goes tumbling from his tower \nafter Our Hero's return.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T05:26:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD63CE.7010803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From James Wynn crushtv at gmail.com:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now my interest is peaked. At first I thought you were thinking of Zephyrus. I think Wolfe *did* riff on that in The Book >of the Long Sun. But the comment about having a lot of heads suggests you mean someone else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He has three. This fits nicely between Quadrifrons' four and\nTyphon/Pas's two. To clarify, I meant Return to the Whorl, not UotNS\n-- a bit of aphasia on my part. The discussion Patera Horn has\nconcerning the identity of the Outsider is quite illuminating. As an\naside, did anyone else notice that Horn mentions a Patera Ray? Ray and\nHorn can be translated from the same Hebrew word, ??? (qeren). I think\nthis is another linguistic joke/clue Wolfe is giving regarding the\ndivinities he's referring to.\n\n\"Spring Wind\" is one translation for Erikapaios (or Ericapaeus), also\nknown as Phanes. Interestingly, \"Pas\" can be derived from both\nErikapaios and Phanes. Phanes is the main god of the Orphic mysteries.\nYes, that means he is Dionysus -- and Eros as well; he gets around. I\ndon't think I need to remind anyone that Wolfe brings up Dionysus a\nlot: Peace, Sorcerer's House, RttW, etc. Borski thinks he's the Devil,\nbut he also represents the opposite.\n\nPhanes also manifests as the goddess Thetis (or Thesis). I think\n\"Spring Wind,\" Phanes, is the Outsider. What this has to do with\nWolfe's cosmology (fictional or otherwise) has already been speculated\nupon, in a tangential way, by others -- on this very mailing list, for\nexample. If you like, Phanes can be another piece of the puzzle. I\nthink he's much more. He's in both Peace and Pandora as well. That\nstrikes me as significant.\n\nI suppose it could all be a coincidence. We gravitate toward the\ninterpretations that speak to us most strongly, after all. And yet if\nyou look into the Phanic myths as I did, I think you'll find them\nilluminating.\n\n--Nick" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDDF4F7.1090208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T06:36:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Boy, Nick, did you ever come to the right counter.\n\nPhanes is not a bad key. What is your source on him? Because the only \npicture I've found of him is slightly reminiscent of the Zervan (which I \nhave argued is invoked in the character Silk). Only one head, though. \nNor can I find where Ericapaeus could be translated Spring Wind. Nor \nwhere he is associated with Thetis (and this would not be surprising in \na wide variety of monomyth models).\nHow do you mean that Pas can be *derived* from both Erikapaios and Phanes?\n\nI am also curious where you detected Dionysus in 'Peace'. Do you say \nPhanes is present in 'Peace' and 'Pandora' only through Dionysus? Or \nmore directly?\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/26/2011 12:26 AM, Nick Lee wrote:\nHe has three. This fits nicely between Quadrifrons' four and\nTyphon/Pas's two. To clarify, I meant Return to the Whorl, not UotNS\n-- a bit of aphasia on my part. The discussion Patera Horn has\nconcerning the identity of the Outsider is quite illuminating. As an\naside, did anyone else notice that Horn mentions a Patera Ray? Ray and\nHorn can be translated from the same Hebrew word, ??? (qeren). I think\nthis is another linguistic joke/clue Wolfe is giving regarding the\ndivinities he's referring to.\n\n\"Spring Wind\" is one translation for Erikapaios (or Ericapaeus), also\nknown as Phanes. Interestingly, \"Pas\" can be derived from both\nErikapaios and Phanes. Phanes is the main god of the Orphic mysteries.\nYes, that means he is Dionysus -- and Eros as well; he gets around. I\ndon't think I need to remind anyone that Wolfe brings up Dionysus a\nlot: Peace, Sorcerer's House, RttW, etc. Borski thinks he's the Devil,\nbut he also represents the opposite.\n\nPhanes also manifests as the goddess Thetis (or Thesis). I think\n\"Spring Wind,\" Phanes, is the Outsider. What this has to do with\nWolfe's cosmology (fictional or otherwise) has already been speculated\nupon, in a tangential way, by others -- on this very mailing list, for\nexample. If you like, Phanes can be another piece of the puzzle. I\nthink he's much more. He's in both Peace and Pandora as well. That\nstrikes me as significant.\n\nI suppose it could all be a coincidence. We gravitate toward the\ninterpretations that speak to us most strongly, after all. And yet if\nyou look into the Phanic myths as I did, I think you'll find them\nilluminating.\n\n--Nick\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDE358C.4000607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-26T11:12:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/25/2011 3:08 PM, Nick Lee wrote:\nSeverian is a known bisexual. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do we \"know\" this?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T12:32:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDE358C.4000607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian is a known bisexual. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: How do we \"know\" this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSurely we don't. Though I think there are suggestions he is a closeted bisexual.\nPerhaps with some pedophilic tendencies also. In context, I wonder if Nick wasn't \nleaning toward \"hermaphrodite\" or even \"androgyne\"..of course that sounds more like \nTzadkiel or the old Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Boy, Nick, did you ever come to the right counter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHe did. Where has Nick been hiding?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Phanes is not a bad key. What is your source on him? Because the only picture I've found of \nhim is slightly reminiscent of the Zervan (which I have argued is invoked in the character Silk). \nOnly one head, though. Nor can I find where Ericapaeus could be translated Spring Wind. Nor \nwhere he is associated with Thetis (and this would not be surprising in a wide variety of monomyth \nmodels)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI found a site which answers some of James' questions. A tri-partite god rather than having three heads. \nHe's wedged somewhere in the post-Chaos, pre-Uranos space with some relationship to Erebus and Nyx. \nQuite angelic-looking. And.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"In addition to the name Phanes, he is also called Dionysos, Erikepaios, Eros, Metis, Protogonos, [9] \nZeus, Firstborn, and Pan.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAs a light-bringer, like Prometheus, like Lucifer, like Severian, he has been both deified and demonized.\nCombining elements of Prometheus and Pan, I think he must also be associated with Azazel, the fallen angel\nknown for bringing the arts of warfare to men and beautification to women (like Inire/Cumaean?).\n \n(to confuse things, Dionysus and Ariadne had a son named Phanos who ended up as an Argonaut)\n \nHere's the site: http://www.hellenicgods.org/Phanes\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5085F54D-26C5-4741-9B16-018DB7671018@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T13:53:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 25/05/2011, ?s 19:59, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I feel no need to mock you" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio- Should we assume it's been unintentional the dozen odd times you've seemed to \ntry it before?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps I should have said \"mock your intelligence\". I am not by nature a mocking or sarcastic \nsort of person. My guess is that any disparaging remark made by me toward Gerry has been in regard \nto his mean spirit not his intelligence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this list is ripe with people who like to mock others. I don't like that. But it may be my twisted impression. I try to think it is. I don't really distinguish between different types of mockery. Twisted impression or not, I wish it went away. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<739565.51068.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-26T13:57:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 5/26/11, Lee Berman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Thursday, May 26, 2011, 8:32 AM\n\n\nSeverian is a known bisexual. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: How do we \"know\" this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nSurely we don't. Though I think there are suggestions he is\na closeted bisexual.\nPerhaps with some pedophilic tendencies also. In context, I\nwonder if Nick wasn't \nleaning toward \"hermaphrodite\" or even \"androgyne\"..of\ncourse that sounds more like \nTzadkiel or the old Autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. I'm sure there was circlejerking and more going on the Tower among the apprentices, since they grew up in what must have been literally a prison-like environment even though they were not themselves prisoners. But that doesn't make anyone bisexual, just inured to such conditions. And I don't know of any \"incidents\" in Severian's account of his life." } ] }, { "message_id": "<615423.2764.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-26T14:00:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<5085F54D-26C5-4741-9B16-018DB7671018@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's all just follow the injunction of the Nazarene, updated for email: Mock not, lest ye be mocked!\n\nUnless someone's really begging for it, of course. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 5/26/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, May 26, 2011, 9:53 AM\nNo dia 25/05/2011, ?s 19:59, Lee\nBerman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I feel no need to mock you" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Antonio- Should we assume it's been unintentional\nthe dozen odd times you've seemed to \ntry it before?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps I should have said \"mock your intelligence\". I\nam not by nature a mocking or sarcastic \nsort of person. My guess is that any disparaging\nremark made by me toward Gerry has been in regard \nto his mean spirit not his intelligence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this list is ripe with people who like to mock\nothers. I don't like that. But it may be my twisted\nimpression. I try to think it is. I don't really distinguish\nbetween different types of mockery. Twisted impression or\nnot, I wish it went away. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDE6AB6.3060605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T14:59:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor where he is associated with Thetis\n(and this would not be surprising in a wide variety of monomyth models)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After thinking about it, Nick probably means that Thetis is Phanes by \nway of Metis, which makes perfect sense.\n(Thetis is my favorite Greek god)\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDE8B37.8010704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T17:17:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<5085F54D-26C5-4741-9B16-018DB7671018@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/26/2011 8:53 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 25/05/2011, ?s 19:59, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I feel no need to mock you" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Antonio- Should we assume it's been unintentional the dozen odd times you've seemed to\ntry it before?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps I should have said \"mock your intelligence\". I am not by nature a mocking or sarcastic\nsort of person. My guess is that any disparaging remark made by me toward Gerry has been in regard\nto his mean spirit not his intelligence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this list is ripe with people who like to mock others. I don't like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We're like Voltaire's demons, if you are wedded to received wisdom then \nof course we're mocking bastards. But if you are willing to seek \nenlightenment, then we're really Socratic Buddhas that labor to free \nyour mind of its false burdens." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<01E0BC1A-7967-4F5C-A015-3F8E317F40C5@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T18:28:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDE8B37.8010704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 26/05/2011, ?s 18:17, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/26/2011 8:53 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 25/05/2011, ?s 19:59, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I feel no need to mock you" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Antonio- Should we assume it's been unintentional the dozen odd times you've seemed to\ntry it before?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps I should have said \"mock your intelligence\". I am not by nature a mocking or sarcastic\nsort of person. My guess is that any disparaging remark made by me toward Gerry has been in regard\nto his mean spirit not his intelligence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think this list is ripe with people who like to mock others. I don't like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We're like Voltaire's demons, if you are wedded to received wisdom then of course we're mocking bastards. But if you are willing to seek enlightenment, then we're really Socratic Buddhas that labor to free your mind of its false burdens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'If you find the Buddha, kill the Buddha.'" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T19:15:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ceryx (answer to Lee)", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD04A9.8000106@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 25/05/2011, ?s 14:31, Sergei SOLOVIEV escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me, in Wolfe's books is very important the brilliant rendering of human psychology\nand human existential problems. (...) Look - the old guy looking for Cas is interesting\nbecause it is a poor old guy, living in a slum and looking for his lost wife and love\nall fifty years or so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree and feel very strongly about this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDF1CF3.70308@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-27T03:39:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<01E0BC1A-7967-4F5C-A015-3F8E317F40C5@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/26/2011 1:28 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 26/05/2011, ?s 18:17, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/26/2011 8:53 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No dia 25/05/2011, ?s 19:59, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I feel no need to mock you" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Antonio- Should we assume it's been unintentional the dozen odd times you've seemed to\ntry it before?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Perhaps I should have said \"mock your intelligence\". I am not by nature a mocking or sarcastic\nsort of person. My guess is that any disparaging remark made by me toward Gerry has been in regard\nto his mean spirit not his intelligence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think this list is ripe with people who like to mock others. I don't like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We're like Voltaire's demons, if you are wedded to received wisdom then of course we're mocking bastards. But if you are willing to seek enlightenment, then we're really Socratic Buddhas that labor to free your mind of its false burdens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'If you find the Buddha, kill the Buddha.'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahem. Let us not speak of our former \"radical\" list member." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nathan C. Tresch", "address": "nathanctresch at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-07T07:19:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDAD35A.6030303@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 2:36 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n And the Red Flower was never Mowgli's banner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's worth noting that Mowgli was thought to posses the red flower\nby the apes, and as such it could be construed as his banner." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Per Aspera, Ad Astra" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3804B1CD-72A0-4FE0-B98C-E5DB66F9BB9B@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-08T18:50:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 2:36 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n And the Red Flower was never Mowgli's banner. \n \nOn Aug 7, 2011, at 2:19 AM, \"Nathan C. Tresch\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's worth noting that Mowgli was thought to posses the red flower by the apes, and as such it could be construed as his banner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Think that is worth noting. It is why some ancient translator thought Mowgli was a story about the son of \"Spring Wind\". I don't think we are supposed to miss that there actually IS a banner in the story with a red flower (rose).\n\nJ." } ] } ] }