{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6007", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6007, "subject": "Ultan's grammar quip", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-05-13T09:15:47+00:00", "last": "2011-05-14T12:37:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T09:15:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ultan's grammar quip", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shadow Grammar Puzzle:\n\nWhen Ultan meets Severian, he asks him whose apprentice he is; Severian\nreplies that Master Gurloes sent him and that Master Palaemon teaches the\napprentices; Ultan replies \"But not grammar\".\n\nThe implication of his little joke is that Severian made a grammatical error\nat some point since they met. What's the error?\n\n(I *think* I know, but I'm only 75% sure. So I'm curious what other people\nthink.)\n\n\n-Jason" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCD1A4B.2080002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-13T11:47:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ultan's grammar quip", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assume it's \"Master Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly.\"\n\nI think Ultan means the word \"mostly\" is misplaced, making it sound like \nPalaemon teaches \"apprentices\" as a subject, thus, \"but not grammar.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/13/2011 5:15 AM, Jason H wrote:\nShadow Grammar Puzzle:\n\nWhen Ultan meets Severian, he asks him whose apprentice he is; \nSeverian replies that Master Gurloes sent him and that Master Palaemon \nteaches the apprentices; Ultan replies \"But not grammar\".\n\nThe implication of his little joke is that Severian made a grammatical \nerror at some point since they met. What's the error?\n\n(I *think* I know, but I'm only 75% sure. So I'm curious what other \npeople think.)\n\n\n-Jason" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCD3EDB.90608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T14:23:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ultan's grammar quip", "in_reply_to": "<4DCD1A4B.2080002@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the same reason, I always thought the problem was with \"us \napprentices\". But this is really a style issue rather than a grammatical \none. Perhaps it was a pet-peeve of style guide writers when Wolfe went \nto college. The problem is that it uses two direct objects (which could \nbe argued to be a grammatical error, I suppose). Thus, it is cumbersome \nand confusing for the reason David gave. So, it is for clarity's sake, \nrather than ignorance, that people tend to replace the \"us\" with \"we\" \nwhich is technically incorrect. One should avoid the pattern entirely. \nIf \"us\" needs to be qualified and the speaker needs to clarify his \nmembership to \"us\", there are lots of ways to speak and write the \nthought more clearly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/13/2011 6:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI assume it's \"Master Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly.\"\n\nI think Ultan means the word \"mostly\" is misplaced, making it sound \nlike Palaemon teaches \"apprentices\" as a subject, thus, \"but not \ngrammar.\"\n\n\n\nOn 5/13/2011 5:15 AM, Jason H wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Shadow Grammar Puzzle:\n\nWhen Ultan meets Severian, he asks him whose apprentice he is; \nSeverian replies that Master Gurloes sent him and that Master \nPalaemon teaches the apprentices; Ultan replies \"But not grammar\".\n\nThe implication of his little joke is that Severian made a \ngrammatical error at some point since they met. What's the error?\n\n(I *think* I know, but I'm only 75% sure. So I'm curious what other \npeople think.)\n\n\n-Jason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 110512-1, 05/12/2011\nTested on: 5/13/2011 7:47:24 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T18:33:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ultan's grammar quip", "in_reply_to": "<4DCD3EDB.90608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in \"Master Palaemon teaches\nus apprentices, mostly\", but I have a different take.\n\nThere's nothing inherently wrong with the \"us apprentices\", grammatically or\nstylistically. People often misuse \"us\" vs. \"we\" in this setting (as James\nsays), so our suspicions here are raised, but Severian's use is correct. So\nwhy does Ultan imply that he didn't learn grammar?\n\nI think that the problem is the placement of \"mostly\" (although for a\ndifferent reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the word\nit modifies. The correct statement is \"Master Palaemon mostly teaches us\napprentices.\" That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he\n\"mostly teaches\". In contrast, \"teaches us apprentices, mostly\" really means\nthat he teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are apprentices\n(but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also teaches). I don't\nthink this is what Severian means.\n\nAdverb placement is a common but subtle issue. It's the different between\nsaying \"John eats only sushi\" (correct), and \"John only eats sushi\"\n(commonly used, but wrong: it implies that John does nothing but eat; he\ndoesn't sleep, or work, etc.).\n\nTo me, this little \"grammar puzzle\" Wolfe sets up is more interesting than\nspeculating on whether Severian's great-aunt might actually be Baldander's\ncousin. But I realize I might be in the minority here. :)\n\n-Jason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 7:23 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nFor the same reason, I always thought the problem was with \"us\napprentices\". But this is really a style issue rather than a grammatical\none. Perhaps it was a pet-peeve of style guide writers when Wolfe went to\ncollege. The problem is that it uses two direct objects (which could be\nargued to be a grammatical error, I suppose). Thus, it is cumbersome and\nconfusing for the reason David gave. So, it is for clarity's sake, rather\nthan ignorance, that people tend to replace the \"us\" with \"we\" which is\ntechnically incorrect. One should avoid the pattern entirely. If \"us\" needs\nto be qualified and the speaker needs to clarify his membership to \"us\",\nthere are lots of ways to speak and write the thought more clearly.\n\n\n\nOn 5/13/2011 6:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I assume it's \"Master Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly.\"\n\nI think Ultan means the word \"mostly\" is misplaced, making it sound like\nPalaemon teaches \"apprentices\" as a subject, thus, \"but not grammar.\"\n\n\n\nOn 5/13/2011 5:15 AM, Jason H wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Shadow Grammar Puzzle:\n\nWhen Ultan meets Severian, he asks him whose apprentice he is; Severian\nreplies that Master Gurloes sent him and that Master Palaemon teaches the\napprentices; Ultan replies \"But not grammar\".\n\nThe implication of his little joke is that Severian made a grammatical\nerror at some point since they met. What's the error?\n\n(I *think* I know, but I'm only 75% sure. So I'm curious what other\npeople think.)\n\n\n-Jason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 110512-1, 05/12/2011\nTested on: 5/13/2011 7:47:24 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T18:44:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ultan's grammar quip", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Jason H wrote:\nI think that the problem is the placement of \"mostly\" (although for a\ndifferent reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the word\nit modifies. The correct statement is \"Master Palaemon mostly teaches us\napprentices.\" That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he\n\"mostly teaches\". In contrast, \"teaches us apprentices, mostly\" really means\nthat he teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are apprentices\n(but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also teaches). I don't\nthink this is what Severian means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Severian meant that, he would probably say \"Master Palaemon teaches\nmostly us apprentices\" -- or, more properly, \"mainly.\" The hanging\nadverb, separated by a comma from the rest of the sentence, is used by\nMark Twain (especially in the voice of Huck Finn) exactly as\nWolfe-through-Severian uses it here: to modify the verb, but to have\nthat modification come as an afterthought. The sentence as provided is\nperhaps technically ambiguous, but the meaning is clear: it is the\nsame as if the \"mostly\" had been placed before \"teaches.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T19:11:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ultan's grammar quip", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm... I *think* we're basically agreeing, Dan'l.\n\nSeverian's meaning is certainly clear, I grant you-- that's how Ultan knew\nwhat he meant. And I'm sure that great writers, including Mark Twain, use it\nthat way, especially if they're writing colloquially. The question here is:\nwhat grammatical fault is Ultan chiding Severian for? And I think the answer\nis that this dangling adverb, modifying a non-adjacent word, is not just\n\"perhaps technically ambiguous\", but, to Ultan, grammatically wrong.\n\n-J" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Jason H wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that the problem is the placement of \"mostly\" (although for a\ndifferent reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the\nword\nit modifies. The correct statement is \"Master Palaemon mostly teaches us\napprentices.\" That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he\n\"mostly teaches\". In contrast, \"teaches us apprentices, mostly\" really\nmeans\nthat he teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are\napprentices\n(but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also teaches). I don't\nthink this is what Severian means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Severian meant that, he would probably say \"Master Palaemon teaches\nmostly us apprentices\" -- or, more properly, \"mainly.\" The hanging\nadverb, separated by a comma from the rest of the sentence, is used by\nMark Twain (especially in the voice of Huck Finn) exactly as\nWolfe-through-Severian uses it here: to modify the verb, but to have\nthat modification come as an afterthought. The sentence as provided is\nperhaps technically ambiguous, but the meaning is clear: it is the\nsame as if the \"mostly\" had been placed before \"teaches.\"\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCD8260.8060304@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T19:11:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ultan's grammar quip", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/13/2011 1:33 PM, Jason H wrote:\nI agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in \" Master Palaemon \nteaches us apprentices, mostly\", but I have a different take. There's \nnothing inherently wrong with the \"us apprentices\", grammatically or \nstylistically. People often misuse \"us\" vs. \"we\" in this setting (as \nJames says), so our suspicions here are raised, but Severian's use is \ncorrect. So why does Ultan imply that he didn't learn grammar?\nI think that the problem is the placement of \"mostly\" (although for a \ndifferent reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the \nword it modifies. The correct statement is \"Master Palaemon mostly \nteaches us apprentices.\" That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is \nteach: he \"mostly teaches\". In contrast, \"teaches us apprentices, \nmostly\" really means that he teaches different kinds of people, and \nmost of them are apprentices (but e.g. there might be some journeymen \nthat he also teaches). I don't think this is what Severian means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that is what Sev is saying. He is saying \"Although Gurloes \nsent me, my training is PRIMARILY received by Palaemon...but not \nentirely. I consider myself Palaemon's apprentice, if I had to choose \none.\" It is true that \"mostly\" is ambiguous here. So it the use of \"us \napprentices\". The placement of \"mostly\" is ambiguous and so is it's \nusage in the first place.\n\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-13T20:23:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ultan's grammar quip", "in_reply_to": "<4DCD8260.8060304@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James,\n\nGood ear, and I think I now agree with you as to what Sev meant. But I\nwouldn't say \"the placement of 'mostly' is ambiguous\". If we want to be\nreally strict, there are right and wrong placements, depending on the\nmeaning of the sentence.\n\nHere are three possible meanings:\n\n1. Most of the people Palaemon teaches are apprentices.\n2. Most of what Palaemon does is teach.\n3. Most of the teaching is done by Palaemon.\n\nI still think that to a strict grammarian like Ultan, Sev's statement is\nonly correct if he means (1). (Which he doesn't, hence the error.)\n\nIf Sev had meant (2) (as I originally thought), he should have said \"Master\nPalaemon mostly teaches us apprentices.\"\n\nIf Sev had meant (3) (which, I agree with James, is what he really does\nmean), he should have said something like \"Mostly Master Palaemon teaches us\napprentices.\" (Although I guess \"Master Palaelmon mostly teaches...\" works\nhere too.)\n\nIs this splitting hairs in the most absurd way? Of course! I'm just a mortal\ntrying to get the Master Librarian's little joke.\n\n\n-Jason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n On 5/13/2011 1:33 PM, Jason H wrote:\n\nI agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in \" Master Palaemon\nteaches us apprentices, mostly\", but I have a different take. There's\nnothing inherently wrong with the \"us apprentices\", grammatically or\nstylistically. People often misuse \"us\" vs. \"we\" in this setting (as James\nsays), so our suspicions here are raised, but Severian's use is correct. So\nwhy does Ultan imply that he didn't learn grammar?\nI think that the problem is the placement of \"mostly\" (although for a\ndifferent reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the word\nit modifies. The correct statement is \"Master Palaemon mostly teaches us\napprentices.\" That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he\n\"mostly teaches\". In contrast, \"teaches us apprentices, mostly\" really means\nthat he teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are apprentices\n(but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also teaches). I don't\nthink this is what Severian means.\n\n\nI don't think that is what Sev is saying. He is saying \"Although Gurloes\nsent me, my training is PRIMARILY received by Palaemon...but not entirely. I\nconsider myself Palaemon's apprentice, if I had to choose one.\" It is true\nthat \"mostly\" is ambiguous here. So it the use of \"us apprentices\". The\nplacement of \"mostly\" is ambiguous and so is it's usage in the first place.\n\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DCE77A2.8030809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-14T12:37:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ultan's grammar quip", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly Ultan would be a grammar nazi, and certainly the placement of \n\"mostly\" is ambiguous. But does all this address Ultan's joke?\n\nHow do these strike you in terms of Ultan's completion of Severian's \nsentence:\n\n1. Most of the people Palaemon teaches are apprentices, but not grammar.\n2. Most of what Palaemon does is teach, but not grammar.\n3. Most of the teaching is done by Palaemon, but not grammar.\n\n#1 doesn't work at all. #2 and #3 are marginal at best." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/13/2011 4:23 PM, Jason H wrote:\nJames,\n\nGood ear, and I think I now agree with you as to what Sev meant. But I \nwouldn't say \"the placement of 'mostly' is ambiguous\". If we want to \nbe really strict, there are right and wrong placements, depending on \nthe meaning of the sentence.\n\nHere are three possible meanings:\n\n1. Most of the people Palaemon teaches are apprentices.\n2. Most of what Palaemon does is teach.\n3. Most of the teaching is done by Palaemon.\n\nI still think that to a strict grammarian like Ultan, Sev's statement \nis only correct if he means (1). (Which he doesn't, hence the error.)\n\nIf Sev had meant (2) (as I originally thought), he should have said \n\"Master Palaemon mostly teaches us apprentices.\"\n\nIf Sev had meant (3) (which, I agree with James, is what he really \ndoes mean), he should have said something like \"Mostly Master Palaemon \nteaches us apprentices.\" (Although I guess \"Master Palaelmon mostly \nteaches...\" works here too.)\n\nIs this splitting hairs in the most absurd way? Of course! I'm just a \nmortal trying to get the Master Librarian's little joke.\n\n\n-Jason\n\nOn Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, James Wynn > wrote:\n\n On 5/13/2011 1:33 PM, Jason H wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in \" Master\n Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly\", but I have a different\n take. There's nothing inherently wrong with the \"us apprentices\",\n grammatically or stylistically. People often misuse \"us\" vs. \"we\"\n in this setting (as James says), so our suspicions here are\n raised, but Severian's use is correct. So why does Ultan imply\n that he didn't learn grammar?\n I think that the problem is the placement of \"mostly\" (although\n for a different reason from what David says). It needs to be\n adjacent to the word it modifies. The correct statement is\n \"Master Palaemon mostly teaches us apprentices.\" That is, the\n main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he \"mostly teaches\". In\n contrast, \"teaches us apprentices, mostly\" really means that he\n teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are\n apprentices (but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also\n teaches). I don't think this is what Severian means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I don't think that is what Sev is saying. He is saying \"Although\n Gurloes sent me, my training is PRIMARILY received by\n Palaemon...but not entirely. I consider myself Palaemon's\n apprentice, if I had to choose one.\" It is true that \"mostly\" is\n ambiguous here. So it the use of \"us apprentices\". The placement\n of \"mostly\" is ambiguous and so is it's usage in the first place.\n\n\n J.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] } ] }