# Ultan's grammar quip *The Urth list — 9 messages, 4 voices, 13 May 2011* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Jason H *13 May 2011, 09:15* Shadow Grammar Puzzle: When Ultan meets Severian, he asks him whose apprentice he is; Severian replies that Master Gurloes sent him and that Master Palaemon teaches the apprentices; Ultan replies "But not grammar". The implication of his little joke is that Severian made a grammatical error at some point since they met. What's the error? (I *think* I know, but I'm only 75% sure. So I'm curious what other people think.) -Jason --- ### David Stockhoff *13 May 2011, 11:47 · in reply to Jason H* I assume it's "Master Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly." I think Ultan means the word "mostly" is misplaced, making it sound like Palaemon teaches "apprentices" as a subject, thus, "but not grammar." > On 5/13/2011 5:15 AM, Jason H wrote: > Shadow Grammar Puzzle: > > When Ultan meets Severian, he asks him whose apprentice he is; > Severian replies that Master Gurloes sent him and that Master Palaemon > teaches the apprentices; Ultan replies "But not grammar". > > The implication of his little joke is that Severian made a grammatical > error at some point since they met. What's the error? > > (I *think* I know, but I'm only 75% sure. So I'm curious what other > people think.) > > > -Jason --- ### James Wynn *13 May 2011, 14:23 · in reply to David Stockhoff* For the same reason, I always thought the problem was with "us apprentices". But this is really a style issue rather than a grammatical one. Perhaps it was a pet-peeve of style guide writers when Wolfe went to college. The problem is that it uses two direct objects (which could be argued to be a grammatical error, I suppose). Thus, it is cumbersome and confusing for the reason David gave. So, it is for clarity's sake, rather than ignorance, that people tend to replace the "us" with "we" which is technically incorrect. One should avoid the pattern entirely. If "us" needs to be qualified and the speaker needs to clarify his membership to "us", there are lots of ways to speak and write the thought more clearly. > On 5/13/2011 6:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > I assume it's "Master Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly." > > I think Ultan means the word "mostly" is misplaced, making it sound > like Palaemon teaches "apprentices" as a subject, thus, "but not > grammar." > > > > On 5/13/2011 5:15 AM, Jason H wrote: >> Shadow Grammar Puzzle: >> >> When Ultan meets Severian, he asks him whose apprentice he is; >> Severian replies that Master Gurloes sent him and that Master >> Palaemon teaches the apprentices; Ultan replies "But not grammar". >> >> The implication of his little joke is that Severian made a >> grammatical error at some point since they met. What's the error? >> >> (I *think* I know, but I'm only 75% sure. So I'm curious what other >> people think.) >> >> >> -Jason > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 110512-1, 05/12/2011 > Tested on: 5/13/2011 7:47:24 AM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software. > http://www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jason H *13 May 2011, 18:33 · in reply to James Wynn* I agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in "Master Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly", but I have a different take. There's nothing inherently wrong with the "us apprentices", grammatically or stylistically. People often misuse "us" vs. "we" in this setting (as James says), so our suspicions here are raised, but Severian's use is correct. So why does Ultan imply that he didn't learn grammar? I think that the problem is the placement of "mostly" (although for a different reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the word it modifies. The correct statement is "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us apprentices." That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he "mostly teaches". In contrast, "teaches us apprentices, mostly" really means that he teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are apprentices (but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also teaches). I don't think this is what Severian means. Adverb placement is a common but subtle issue. It's the different between saying "John eats only sushi" (correct), and "John only eats sushi" (commonly used, but wrong: it implies that John does nothing but eat; he doesn't sleep, or work, etc.). To me, this little "grammar puzzle" Wolfe sets up is more interesting than speculating on whether Severian's great-aunt might actually be Baldander's cousin. But I realize I might be in the minority here. :) -Jason > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 7:23 AM, James Wynn wrote: > For the same reason, I always thought the problem was with "us > apprentices". But this is really a style issue rather than a grammatical > one. Perhaps it was a pet-peeve of style guide writers when Wolfe went to > college. The problem is that it uses two direct objects (which could be > argued to be a grammatical error, I suppose). Thus, it is cumbersome and > confusing for the reason David gave. So, it is for clarity's sake, rather > than ignorance, that people tend to replace the "us" with "we" which is > technically incorrect. One should avoid the pattern entirely. If "us" needs > to be qualified and the speaker needs to clarify his membership to "us", > there are lots of ways to speak and write the thought more clearly. > > > > On 5/13/2011 6:47 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: >> I assume it's "Master Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly." >> >> I think Ultan means the word "mostly" is misplaced, making it sound like >> Palaemon teaches "apprentices" as a subject, thus, "but not grammar." >> >> >> >> On 5/13/2011 5:15 AM, Jason H wrote: >>> Shadow Grammar Puzzle: >>> >>> When Ultan meets Severian, he asks him whose apprentice he is; Severian >>> replies that Master Gurloes sent him and that Master Palaemon teaches the >>> apprentices; Ultan replies "But not grammar". >>> >>> The implication of his little joke is that Severian made a grammatical >>> error at some point since they met. What's the error? >>> >>> (I *think* I know, but I'm only 75% sure. So I'm curious what other >>> people think.) >>> >>> >>> -Jason >> --- >> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. >> Virus Database (VPS): 110512-1, 05/12/2011 >> Tested on: 5/13/2011 7:47:24 AM >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *13 May 2011, 18:44 · in reply to Jason H* > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Jason H wrote: > I think that the problem is the placement of "mostly" (although for a > different reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the word > it modifies. The correct statement is "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us > apprentices." That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he > "mostly teaches". In contrast, "teaches us apprentices, mostly" really means > that he teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are apprentices > (but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also teaches). I don't > think this is what Severian means. If Severian meant that, he would probably say "Master Palaemon teaches mostly us apprentices" -- or, more properly, "mainly." The hanging adverb, separated by a comma from the rest of the sentence, is used by Mark Twain (especially in the voice of Huck Finn) exactly as Wolfe-through-Severian uses it here: to modify the verb, but to have that modification come as an afterthought. The sentence as provided is perhaps technically ambiguous, but the meaning is clear: it is the same as if the "mostly" had been placed before "teaches." ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Jason H *13 May 2011, 19:11 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Hmmm... I *think* we're basically agreeing, Dan'l. Severian's meaning is certainly clear, I grant you-- that's how Ultan knew what he meant. And I'm sure that great writers, including Mark Twain, use it that way, especially if they're writing colloquially. The question here is: what grammatical fault is Ultan chiding Severian for? And I think the answer is that this dangling adverb, modifying a non-adjacent word, is not just "perhaps technically ambiguous", but, to Ultan, grammatically wrong. -J > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Jason H wrote: >> I think that the problem is the placement of "mostly" (although for a >> different reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the >> word >> it modifies. The correct statement is "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us >> apprentices." That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he >> "mostly teaches". In contrast, "teaches us apprentices, mostly" really >> means >> that he teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are >> apprentices >> (but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also teaches). I don't >> think this is what Severian means. > If Severian meant that, he would probably say "Master Palaemon teaches > mostly us apprentices" -- or, more properly, "mainly." The hanging > adverb, separated by a comma from the rest of the sentence, is used by > Mark Twain (especially in the voice of Huck Finn) exactly as > Wolfe-through-Severian uses it here: to modify the verb, but to have > that modification come as an afterthought. The sentence as provided is > perhaps technically ambiguous, but the meaning is clear: it is the > same as if the "mostly" had been placed before "teaches." > > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > _______________________________________________ --- ### James Wynn *13 May 2011, 19:11 · in reply to Jason H* > On 5/13/2011 1:33 PM, Jason H wrote: > I agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in " Master Palaemon > teaches us apprentices, mostly", but I have a different take. There's > nothing inherently wrong with the "us apprentices", grammatically or > stylistically. People often misuse "us" vs. "we" in this setting (as > James says), so our suspicions here are raised, but Severian's use is > correct. So why does Ultan imply that he didn't learn grammar? > I think that the problem is the placement of "mostly" (although for a > different reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the > word it modifies. The correct statement is "Master Palaemon mostly > teaches us apprentices." That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is > teach: he "mostly teaches". In contrast, "teaches us apprentices, > mostly" really means that he teaches different kinds of people, and > most of them are apprentices (but e.g. there might be some journeymen > that he also teaches). I don't think this is what Severian means. I don't think that is what Sev is saying. He is saying "Although Gurloes sent me, my training is PRIMARILY received by Palaemon...but not entirely. I consider myself Palaemon's apprentice, if I had to choose one." It is true that "mostly" is ambiguous here. So it the use of "us apprentices". The placement of "mostly" is ambiguous and so is it's usage in the first place. J. --- ### Jason H *13 May 2011, 20:23 · in reply to James Wynn* James, Good ear, and I think I now agree with you as to what Sev meant. But I wouldn't say "the placement of 'mostly' is ambiguous". If we want to be really strict, there are right and wrong placements, depending on the meaning of the sentence. Here are three possible meanings: 1. Most of the people Palaemon teaches are apprentices. 2. Most of what Palaemon does is teach. 3. Most of the teaching is done by Palaemon. I still think that to a strict grammarian like Ultan, Sev's statement is only correct if he means (1). (Which he doesn't, hence the error.) If Sev had meant (2) (as I originally thought), he should have said "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us apprentices." If Sev had meant (3) (which, I agree with James, is what he really does mean), he should have said something like "Mostly Master Palaemon teaches us apprentices." (Although I guess "Master Palaelmon mostly teaches..." works here too.) Is this splitting hairs in the most absurd way? Of course! I'm just a mortal trying to get the Master Librarian's little joke. -Jason > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, James Wynn wrote: > On 5/13/2011 1:33 PM, Jason H wrote: > > I agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in " Master Palaemon > teaches us apprentices, mostly", but I have a different take. There's > nothing inherently wrong with the "us apprentices", grammatically or > stylistically. People often misuse "us" vs. "we" in this setting (as James > says), so our suspicions here are raised, but Severian's use is correct. So > why does Ultan imply that he didn't learn grammar? > I think that the problem is the placement of "mostly" (although for a > different reason from what David says). It needs to be adjacent to the word > it modifies. The correct statement is "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us > apprentices." That is, the main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he > "mostly teaches". In contrast, "teaches us apprentices, mostly" really means > that he teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are apprentices > (but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also teaches). I don't > think this is what Severian means. > > > I don't think that is what Sev is saying. He is saying "Although Gurloes > sent me, my training is PRIMARILY received by Palaemon...but not entirely. I > consider myself Palaemon's apprentice, if I had to choose one." It is true > that "mostly" is ambiguous here. So it the use of "us apprentices". The > placement of "mostly" is ambiguous and so is it's usage in the first place. > > > J. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *14 May 2011, 12:37 · in reply to Jason H* Certainly Ultan would be a grammar nazi, and certainly the placement of "mostly" is ambiguous. But does all this address Ultan's joke? How do these strike you in terms of Ultan's completion of Severian's sentence: 1. Most of the people Palaemon teaches are apprentices, but not grammar. 2. Most of what Palaemon does is teach, but not grammar. 3. Most of the teaching is done by Palaemon, but not grammar. #1 doesn't work at all. #2 and #3 are marginal at best. > On 5/13/2011 4:23 PM, Jason H wrote: > James, > > Good ear, and I think I now agree with you as to what Sev meant. But I > wouldn't say "the placement of 'mostly' is ambiguous". If we want to > be really strict, there are right and wrong placements, depending on > the meaning of the sentence. > > Here are three possible meanings: > > 1. Most of the people Palaemon teaches are apprentices. > 2. Most of what Palaemon does is teach. > 3. Most of the teaching is done by Palaemon. > > I still think that to a strict grammarian like Ultan, Sev's statement > is only correct if he means (1). (Which he doesn't, hence the error.) > > If Sev had meant (2) (as I originally thought), he should have said > "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us apprentices." > > If Sev had meant (3) (which, I agree with James, is what he really > does mean), he should have said something like "Mostly Master Palaemon > teaches us apprentices." (Although I guess "Master Palaelmon mostly > teaches..." works here too.) > > Is this splitting hairs in the most absurd way? Of course! I'm just a > mortal trying to get the Master Librarian's little joke. > > > -Jason > > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, James Wynn > wrote: > > On 5/13/2011 1:33 PM, Jason H wrote: >> I agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in " Master >> Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly", but I have a different >> take. There's nothing inherently wrong with the "us apprentices", >> grammatically or stylistically. People often misuse "us" vs. "we" >> in this setting (as James says), so our suspicions here are >> raised, but Severian's use is correct. So why does Ultan imply >> that he didn't learn grammar? >> I think that the problem is the placement of "mostly" (although >> for a different reason from what David says). It needs to be >> adjacent to the word it modifies. The correct statement is >> "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us apprentices." That is, the >> main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he "mostly teaches". In >> contrast, "teaches us apprentices, mostly" really means that he >> teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are >> apprentices (but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also >> teaches). I don't think this is what Severian means. > I don't think that is what Sev is saying. He is saying "Although > Gurloes sent me, my training is PRIMARILY received by > Palaemon...but not entirely. I consider myself Palaemon's > apprentice, if I had to choose one." It is true that "mostly" is > ambiguous here. So it the use of "us apprentices". The placement > of "mostly" is ambiguous and so is it's usage in the first place. > > > J. > > _______________________________________________ ---