{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6013", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6013, "subject": "the atmosphere on the bridge", "messages": 10, "voices": 6, "first": "2011-05-17T07:40:04+00:00", "last": "2011-05-17T22:40:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T07:40:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm confused about the atmosphere on the bridge that Severian crosses at the\nvery beginning of his exile (Shadow chapter XIV).\n\nPreviously he had been walking on the Water Way, and I get the impression\nthere are few people about. He says he no longer appeared a torturer \"in the\neyes of the few who passed me\"; also, he was able to hear the song from a\nship, carried by the wind, from a league away.\n\nBut when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly crowded: there are\ncarriages, there are vendors crying out, and people \"thronging\" the walkway.\nWhen he stops to talk to the guard, he is suddenly surrounded by a hundred\npeople. All of this in the dead of the night.\n\nDoes this make sense? Why would the bridge be so crowded, but the walkway on\none side of the river be practically deserted? Aren't the throngs of people\n*crossing* the bridge?\n\nIt's not a very important point, I'll grant. But I think that one of the\nthings that makes Wolfe special is that he tends to think through these\nthings carefully beforehand. His scenes feel real because he's taken the\ntime to make sure there are no internal contradictions. I'm sure he\ndrastically changed the atmosphere on purpose, but I can't make the scene\nwork in my mind, because I can't visualize it as really happening. Any\nthoughts on this minor point would be appreciated. Thanks.\n\n-Jason" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD23DDB.8090302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T09:20:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/2011 2:40 AM, Jason H wrote:\nI'm confused about the atmosphere on the bridge that Severian crosses at\nthe very beginning of his exile (Shadow chapter XIV).\n\nPreviously he had been walking on the Water Way, and I get the\nimpression there are few people about. He says he no longer appeared a\ntorturer \"in the eyes of the few who passed me\"; also, he was able to\nhear the song from a ship, carried by the wind, from a league away.\n\nBut when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly crowded: there\nare carriages, there are vendors crying out, and people \"thronging\" the\nwalkway. When he stops to talk to the guard, he is suddenly surrounded\nby a hundred people. All of this in the dead of the night.\n\nDoes this make sense? Why would the bridge be so crowded, but the\nwalkway on one side of the river be practically deserted? Aren't the\nthrongs of people *crossing* the bridge?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bridges are very often bottlenecks for traffic; there are generally at \nleast three lanes of various sizes leading away from a bridge footing in \na city, but the bridge is generally only as wide as it has to be due to \nthe expense of construction and maintenance, and as a defensive measure. \nThe spacing between bridges also factors in, there are many choices to \ncross between streets on dry land but only so many bridges between the \nriver banks. Consider the important of the bridge at the end of SAVING \nPRIVATE RYAN.\n\n\nOF course, big cities like Nessus of have luxuriously broad numerous \nbridges, not unlike the various bridges across the Thames in London, but \nin times of asuterity, decadence, and/or corruption, these inevitably \nbecome considered additional real estate and become covered with \nstationary concerns until again there is a bottleneck only as wide as it \nhas to be. The relatively uncluttered bridges across the Seine in Paris \nare a rare sign of enlightened self-interest on the part of the city \ngovernment.\n\nOr that's my impression, I'm not a civil engineer or anything." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD25CBA.9050708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-17T11:32:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": "<4DD23DDB.8090302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took that bridge as a shopping mall, like the Ponto Vecchio. \nApparently this one is open at night." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/2011 5:20 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 5/17/2011 2:40 AM, Jason H wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm confused about the atmosphere on the bridge that Severian crosses at\nthe very beginning of his exile (Shadow chapter XIV).\n\nPreviously he had been walking on the Water Way, and I get the\nimpression there are few people about. He says he no longer appeared a\ntorturer \"in the eyes of the few who passed me\"; also, he was able to\nhear the song from a ship, carried by the wind, from a league away.\n\nBut when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly crowded: there\nare carriages, there are vendors crying out, and people \"thronging\" the\nwalkway. When he stops to talk to the guard, he is suddenly surrounded\nby a hundred people. All of this in the dead of the night.\n\nDoes this make sense? Why would the bridge be so crowded, but the\nwalkway on one side of the river be practically deserted? Aren't the\nthrongs of people *crossing* the bridge?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bridges are very often bottlenecks for traffic; there are generally at \nleast three lanes of various sizes leading away from a bridge footing \nin a city, but the bridge is generally only as wide as it has to be \ndue to the expense of construction and maintenance, and as a defensive \nmeasure. The spacing between bridges also factors in, there are many \nchoices to cross between streets on dry land but only so many bridges \nbetween the river banks. Consider the important of the bridge at the \nend of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.\n\n\nOF course, big cities like Nessus of have luxuriously broad numerous \nbridges, not unlike the various bridges across the Thames in London, \nbut in times of asuterity, decadence, and/or corruption, these \ninevitably become considered additional real estate and become covered \nwith stationary concerns until again there is a bottleneck only as \nwide as it has to be. The relatively uncluttered bridges across the \nSeine in Paris are a rare sign of enlightened self-interest on the \npart of the city government.\n\nOr that's my impression, I'm not a civil engineer or anything." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-05-17T17:26:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": "<4DD25CBA.9050708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I saw it in similar terms as Stockhoff. Sort of a makeshift, lo-end midnight bazarre. The waterway, if like most would be a good place to get mugged. The bridge would probably be a decent place to score [ ] in the middle of the night, or just a place to loiter.\n~witz" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 17, 2011, at 4:32 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI took that bridge as a shopping mall, like the Ponto Vecchio. Apparently this one is open at night.\n\nOn 5/17/2011 5:20 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/17/2011 2:40 AM, Jason H wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm confused about the atmosphere on the bridge that Severian crosses at\nthe very beginning of his exile (Shadow chapter XIV).\n\nPreviously he had been walking on the Water Way, and I get the\nimpression there are few people about. He says he no longer appeared a\ntorturer \"in the eyes of the few who passed me\"; also, he was able to\nhear the song from a ship, carried by the wind, from a league away.\n\nBut when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly crowded: there\nare carriages, there are vendors crying out, and people \"thronging\" the\nwalkway. When he stops to talk to the guard, he is suddenly surrounded\nby a hundred people. All of this in the dead of the night.\n\nDoes this make sense? Why would the bridge be so crowded, but the\nwalkway on one side of the river be practically deserted? Aren't the\nthrongs of people *crossing* the bridge?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bridges are very often bottlenecks for traffic; there are generally at least three lanes of various sizes leading away from a bridge footing in a city, but the bridge is generally only as wide as it has to be due to the expense of construction and maintenance, and as a defensive measure. The spacing between bridges also factors in, there are many choices to cross between streets on dry land but only so many bridges between the river banks. Consider the important of the bridge at the end of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.\n\n\nOF course, big cities like Nessus of have luxuriously broad numerous bridges, not unlike the various bridges across the Thames in London, but in times of asuterity, decadence, and/or corruption, these inevitably become considered additional real estate and become covered with stationary concerns until again there is a bottleneck only as wide as it has to be. The relatively uncluttered bridges across the Seine in Paris are a rare sign of enlightened self-interest on the part of the city government.\n\nOr that's my impression, I'm not a civil engineer or anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 110517-0, 05/17/2011\nTested on: 5/17/2011 7:32:11 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T17:39:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jason H: But when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly crowded: there are\ncarriages, there are vendors crying out, and people \"thronging\" the walkway.\nWhen he stops to talk to the guard, he is suddenly surrounded by a hundred\npeople. All of this in the dead of the night." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting observation! My first response is that it seems like something that \nwould happen if Severian was (unknowingly) an actor in a play. Same could be said\nfor many other parts of BotNS (like Rudesind forgetting his lines). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<646FCB09-4D80-4001-AB2D-CA71BEB667C7@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T17:45:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, if you take the lochage at his word, the hordes are likely hard to control and often met with similar discipline to what Severian nearly encountered at the bartizan. Fortunately for Sev, he was clearly no ordinary disturber of the peace, even though the guards would have been all too happy to throw him in the dungeon.\n\n\"The city grows and changes every night, like writing chalked on a wall. Houses are built in the streets by clever people who take up the cobbles in the dark and claim the ground - did you know that? The exultant Talarican, whose madness manifested itself as a consuming interest in the lowest aspects of human existence, claimed that the persons who live by devouring the garbage of others number two gross thousands. That there are ten thousand begging acrobats, of whom nearly half are women. That if a pauper were to leap from the parapet of this bridge each time we draw breath, we should live forever, because the city breeds and breaks men faster than we respire. Among such a throng, there is no alternative to peace. Disturbances cannot be tolerated, because disturbances cannot be extinguished. Do you follow me?\"\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 17, 2011, at 1:26 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nI saw it in similar terms as Stockhoff. Sort of a makeshift, lo-end midnight bazarre. The waterway, if like most would be a good place to get mugged. The bridge would probably be a decent place to score [ ] in the middle of the night, or just a place to loiter.\n~witz\n\n\n\nOn May 17, 2011, at 4:32 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I took that bridge as a shopping mall, like the Ponto Vecchio. Apparently this one is open at night.\n\nOn 5/17/2011 5:20 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 5/17/2011 2:40 AM, Jason H wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm confused about the atmosphere on the bridge that Severian crosses at\nthe very beginning of his exile (Shadow chapter XIV).\n\nPreviously he had been walking on the Water Way, and I get the\nimpression there are few people about. He says he no longer appeared a\ntorturer \"in the eyes of the few who passed me\"; also, he was able to\nhear the song from a ship, carried by the wind, from a league away.\n\nBut when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly crowded: there\nare carriages, there are vendors crying out, and people \"thronging\" the\nwalkway. When he stops to talk to the guard, he is suddenly surrounded\nby a hundred people. All of this in the dead of the night.\n\nDoes this make sense? Why would the bridge be so crowded, but the\nwalkway on one side of the river be practically deserted? Aren't the\nthrongs of people *crossing* the bridge?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Bridges are very often bottlenecks for traffic; there are generally at least three lanes of various sizes leading away from a bridge footing in a city, but the bridge is generally only as wide as it has to be due to the expense of construction and maintenance, and as a defensive measure. The spacing between bridges also factors in, there are many choices to cross between streets on dry land but only so many bridges between the river banks. Consider the important of the bridge at the end of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.\n\n\nOF course, big cities like Nessus of have luxuriously broad numerous bridges, not unlike the various bridges across the Thames in London, but in times of asuterity, decadence, and/or corruption, these inevitably become considered additional real estate and become covered with stationary concerns until again there is a bottleneck only as wide as it has to be. The relatively uncluttered bridges across the Seine in Paris are a rare sign of enlightened self-interest on the part of the city government.\n\nOr that's my impression, I'm not a civil engineer or anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 110517-0, 05/17/2011\nTested on: 5/17/2011 7:32:11 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<16A384AF-3682-4114-A88E-2B11EB05A0EA@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T17:47:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 17, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJason H: But when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly crowded: there are\ncarriages, there are vendors crying out, and people \"thronging\" the walkway.\nWhen he stops to talk to the guard, he is suddenly surrounded by a hundred\npeople. All of this in the dead of the night." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An interesting observation! My first response is that it seems like something that \nwould happen if Severian was (unknowingly) an actor in a play. Same could be said\nfor many other parts of BotNS (like Rudesind forgetting his lines). \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't get me going on the puppet metaphor here, I have strong suspicions there are marionette strings all throughout this story, some hidden better than others.\n\nIt justifies the chance encounters, and explains the small and large stage play metaphors that permeate the pages, whether it be Dr. Talos's plays or Severian's dreams of the wooden puppets.\n\nAnd it's what might happen if you had a master time traveler who had a vested interest in saving the world, and a subject in Severian who was the perfect (literally) vessel.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T17:54:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the interesting replies. I agree that the bridge must be some\nsort of mall-like bazaar. One particular point that bothered me though was\nwhy this traffic didn't flow over onto the Water Way on the other side.\nPeople and carts are presumably crossing the bridge, so how could the Water\nWay remain so deserted?\n\nI think there's a hint of an answer in the text (of course): \"Leaving the\nlapping tongues of the river, I mounted a flight of broken steps from the\nWater Way to the more elevated street of the bridge...\" The carriages from\nthe bridge wouldn't go down a flight of stairs to the Water Way. There's\nprobably a more populated elevated road, parallel to the Water Way, which\ntakes on the masses of people leaving the bridge.\n\n-Jason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Jason H wrote:\nI'm confused about the atmosphere on the bridge that Severian crosses at\nthe very beginning of his exile (Shadow chapter XIV).\n\nPreviously he had been walking on the Water Way, and I get the impression\nthere are few people about. He says he no longer appeared a torturer \"in the\neyes of the few who passed me\"; also, he was able to hear the song from a\nship, carried by the wind, from a league away.\n\nBut when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly crowded: there are\ncarriages, there are vendors crying out, and people \"thronging\" the walkway.\nWhen he stops to talk to the guard, he is suddenly surrounded by a hundred\npeople. All of this in the dead of the night.\n\nDoes this make sense? Why would the bridge be so crowded, but the walkway\non one side of the river be practically deserted? Aren't the throngs of\npeople *crossing* the bridge?\n\nIt's not a very important point, I'll grant. But I think that one of the\nthings that makes Wolfe special is that he tends to think through these\nthings carefully beforehand. His scenes feel real because he's taken the\ntime to make sure there are no internal contradictions. I'm sure he\ndrastically changed the atmosphere on purpose, but I can't make the scene\nwork in my mind, because I can't visualize it as really happening. Any\nthoughts on this minor point would be appreciated. Thanks.\n\n-Jason\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-17T18:00:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One more quick follow-up: After Sev crosses the bridge, on the western side,\nhe tells us there is \"nearly as much coming and going of coaches and drays\nas there had been on the bridge itself.\" That makes sense; my original\npuzzlement was why there wasn't a similar scene on the eastern side of the\nbridge. :)\n\n-Jason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Jason H wrote:\nThanks for the interesting replies. I agree that the bridge must be some\nsort of mall-like bazaar. One particular point that bothered me though was\nwhy this traffic didn't flow over onto the Water Way on the other side.\nPeople and carts are presumably crossing the bridge, so how could the Water\nWay remain so deserted?\n\nI think there's a hint of an answer in the text (of course): \"Leaving the\nlapping tongues of the river, I mounted a flight of broken steps from the\nWater Way to the more elevated street of the bridge...\" The carriages from\nthe bridge wouldn't go down a flight of stairs to the Water Way. There's\nprobably a more populated elevated road, parallel to the Water Way, which\ntakes on the masses of people leaving the bridge.\n\n-Jason\n\n\nOn Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Jason H wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm confused about the atmosphere on the bridge that Severian crosses at\nthe very beginning of his exile (Shadow chapter XIV).\n\nPreviously he had been walking on the Water Way, and I get the impression\nthere are few people about. He says he no longer appeared a torturer \"in the\neyes of the few who passed me\"; also, he was able to hear the song from a\nship, carried by the wind, from a league away.\n\nBut when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly crowded: there are\ncarriages, there are vendors crying out, and people \"thronging\" the walkway.\nWhen he stops to talk to the guard, he is suddenly surrounded by a hundred\npeople. All of this in the dead of the night.\n\nDoes this make sense? Why would the bridge be so crowded, but the walkway\non one side of the river be practically deserted? Aren't the throngs of\npeople *crossing* the bridge?\n\n It's not a very important point, I'll grant. But I think that one of the\nthings that makes Wolfe special is that he tends to think through these\nthings carefully beforehand. His scenes feel real because he's taken the\ntime to make sure there are no internal contradictions. I'm sure he\ndrastically changed the atmosphere on purpose, but I can't make the scene\nwork in my mind, because I can't visualize it as really happening. Any\nthoughts on this minor point would be appreciated. Thanks.\n\n-Jason\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD2F949.1090100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-17T22:40:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the atmosphere on the bridge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian seems also to have gone from an old, near-dead slum area around \nthe Citadel to a more lively part of Nessus; the areas are separated by \na river and connected by a bridge which is easily closed by guards when \nneeded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/17/2011 2:00 PM, Jason H wrote:\nOne more quick follow-up: After Sev crosses the bridge, on the western \nside, he tells us there is \"nearly as much coming and going of coaches \nand drays as there had been on the bridge itself.\" That makes sense; \nmy original puzzlement was why there wasn't a similar scene on the \neastern side of the bridge. :)\n\n-Jason\n\nOn Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Jason H > wrote:\n\n Thanks for the interesting replies. I agree that the bridge must\n be some sort of mall-like bazaar. One particular point that\n bothered me though was why this traffic didn't flow over onto the\n Water Way on the other side. People and carts are presumably\n crossing the bridge, so how could the Water Way remain so deserted?\n\n I think there's a hint of an answer in the text (of course):\n \"Leaving the lapping tongues of the river, I mounted a flight of\n broken steps from the Water Way to the more elevated street of the\n bridge...\" The carriages from the bridge wouldn't go down a flight\n of stairs to the Water Way. There's probably a more populated\n elevated road, parallel to the Water Way, which takes on the\n masses of people leaving the bridge.\n\n -Jason\n\n\n On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Jason H > wrote:\n\n I'm confused about the atmosphere on the bridge that Severian\n crosses at the very beginning of his exile (Shadow chapter XIV).\n\n Previously he had been walking on the Water Way, and I get the\n impression there are few people about. He says he no longer\n appeared a torturer \"in the eyes of the few who passed me\";\n also, he was able to hear the song from a ship, carried by the\n wind, from a league away.\n\n But when he steps on the bridge, the scene is suddenly\n crowded: there are carriages, there are vendors crying out,\n and people \"thronging\" the walkway. When he stops to talk to\n the guard, he is suddenly surrounded by a hundred people. All\n of this in the dead of the night.\n\n Does this make sense? Why would the bridge be so crowded, but\n the walkway on one side of the river be practically deserted?\n Aren't the throngs of people *crossing* the bridge?\n\n It's not a very important point, I'll grant. But I think that\n one of the things that makes Wolfe special is that he tends to\n think through these things carefully beforehand. His scenes\n feel real because he's taken the time to make sure there are\n no internal contradictions. I'm sure he drastically changed\n the atmosphere on purpose, but I can't make the scene work in\n my mind, because I can't visualize it as really happening. Any\n thoughts on this minor point would be appreciated. Thanks.\n\n -Jason\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] } ] }