{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6017", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6017, "subject": "Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "messages": 68, "voices": 18, "first": "2011-05-21T21:36:02+00:00", "last": "2011-05-26T14:35:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T21:36:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did you know \"Cas\" was Dorcas right away?\n\nI didn't. When I read these books the first time, I didn't realize that\nDorcas had been one of the lake's dead until it was spelled out in the third\nbook, and didn't realize she was the sought-after Cas until the fourth book.\nI read these books pretty carefully-- I knew the towers were rockets right\naway, I picked up on little inconsistencies in the narrative... but I missed\nthis connection completely.\n\nIn retrospect, it's totally obvious! The chapter in Shadow is called\n\"Dorcas\", for heaven's sake, and we're told someone is looking for a \"Cas\",\nand then a mysterious Dorcas appears. How can I not have immediately\nrealized who she was? Of course, the first time through, we don't even know\nhe has the Claw on him (let alone what it can do), and it's perhaps\nunintuitive to mentally pair the old man with the young Dorcas.\n\nSo I'm really curious to know whether I was just being dense, or whether\nWolfe was being particularly brilliant-- and audacious-- by setting up a\nconnection which he somehow knew people wouldn't make right away, despite\nits obviousness later on.\n\nI'm therefore curious to know: Was this obvious to you back in Shadow as\nsoon as Dorcas appeared?\n\n\n-Jason" } ] }, { "message_id": "<612069.51824.qm@web161816.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T21:45:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "not even the tip of the ice berg. I think the first time I read these I was in the fourth or fifth grade and missed it until later, too, but that recognition makes the later little note in the Inn make complete sense. but I don't think knowing what I do now its even touching the surface of how clever and cryptic he can be when he cares to. there are far less obvious things like that I would swear up and down are true but Wolfe is a clever fellow, always.\n\n--- On Sat, 5/21/11, Jason H wrote:\n\n\n\n\nDid you know \"Cas\" was Dorcas right away?\n\nI didn't. When I read these books the first time, I didn't realize that Dorcas had been one of the lake's dead until it was spelled out in the third book, and didn't realize she was the sought-after Cas until the fourth book. I read these books pretty carefully-- I knew the towers were rockets right away, I picked up on little inconsistencies in the narrative... but I missed this connection completely.\n\n\n\nIn retrospect, it's totally obvious! The chapter in Shadow is called \"Dorcas\", for heaven's sake, and we're told someone is looking for a \"Cas\", and then a mysterious Dorcas appears. How can I not have immediately realized who she was? Of course, the first time through, we don't even know he has the Claw on him (let alone what it can do), and it's perhaps unintuitive to mentally pair the old man with the young Dorcas.\n\n\nSo I'm really curious to know whether I was just being dense, or whether Wolfe was being particularly brilliant-- and audacious-- by setting up a connection which he somehow knew people wouldn't make right away, despite its obviousness later on.\n\n\nI'm therefore curious to know: Was this obvious to you back in Shadow as soon as Dorcas appeared?\n\n\n\n\n-Jason\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T22:58:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<612069.51824.qm@web161816.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did not realize it and I think that's what Wolfe intended. He wants her\nidentify to be obscured. Look at the mysterious note that Severian finds\nin the Inn of Lost Loves. The mystery is not resolved until Book 4.\n Severian and the reader don't know who Dorcas is until the end of the story" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nnot even the tip of the ice berg. I think the first time I read these I\nwas in the fourth or fifth grade and missed it until later, too, but that\nrecognition makes the later little note in the Inn make complete sense. but\nI don't think knowing what I do now its even touching the surface of how\nclever and cryptic he can be when he cares to. there are far less obvious\nthings like that I would swear up and down are true but Wolfe is a clever\nfellow, always.\n\n\n--- On *Sat, 5/21/11, Jason H * wrote:\n\n\n Did you know \"Cas\" was Dorcas right away?\n\nI didn't. When I read these books the first time, I didn't realize that\nDorcas had been one of the lake's dead until it was spelled out in the third\nbook, and didn't realize she was the sought-after Cas until the fourth book.\nI read these books pretty carefully-- I knew the towers were rockets right\naway, I picked up on little inconsistencies in the narrative... but I missed\nthis connection completely.\n\n In retrospect, it's totally obvious! The chapter in Shadow is called\n\"Dorcas\", for heaven's sake, and we're told someone is looking for a \"Cas\",\nand then a mysterious Dorcas appears. How can I not have immediately\nrealized who she was? Of course, the first time through, we don't even know\nhe has the Claw on him (let alone what it can do), and it's perhaps\nunintuitive to mentally pair the old man with the young Dorcas.\n\nSo I'm really curious to know whether I was just being dense, or whether\nWolfe was being particularly brilliant-- and audacious-- by setting up a\nconnection which he somehow knew people wouldn't make right away, despite\nits obviousness later on.\n\nI'm therefore curious to know: Was this obvious to you back in Shadow as\nsoon as Dorcas appeared?\n\n\n-Jason\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD851F9.30402@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-21T23:59:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/21/2011 5:58 PM, Jason H. wrote:\nDid you know \"Cas\" was Dorcas right away?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reading Wolfe is a very particular skill. I never recommend \"The Book of \nthe New Sun\" as anyone's first Wolfe novel, but his other stuff is not \nmuch easier. It's just that their settings and language tend to be more \ncomprehensible.\nWolfe's default approach to story-telling is sort of like this Penn & \nTeller demonstration:\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2azeC57Fn4c\n\nA simpler analogy is Bob Dylan's song \"Lily, Rosemary, and the Jack of \nHearts\".\n\n[Lily and 'Jack' are meeting each other behind the back of Lily's \nsugar-daddy, Big Jim, who is married to Rosemary.]\n\n\"No one knew the circumstance but they say that it happened pretty quick\nThe door to the dressing room burst open and a cold revolver clicked\nAnd Big Jim was standin? there, ya couldn’t say surprised\nRosemary right beside him, steady in her eyes\nShe was with Big Jim but she was leanin? to the Jack of Hearts.\"\n\nIt only two verses later that we understand that when Big Jim is \n\"standin' there\", Rosemary is sticking a knife in his back. That's why \nshe's \"leaning\" forward.\n\nNo one likes to be a patsy, so you learn to be paranoid on your first reads.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<197B8E2A-CD7D-4A08-9B28-955D901ADCE3@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T00:01:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 21/05/2011, ?s 22:36, Jason H escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you know \"Cas\" was Dorcas right away?\n\nI didn't. (...) Of course, the first time through, we don't even know he has the Claw on him (let alone what it can do), and it's perhaps unintuitive to mentally pair the old man with the young Dorcas. (...)\n\nI'm therefore curious to know: Was this obvious to you back in Shadow as soon as Dorcas appeared?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me, it was immediate. But there's probably a difference: you were reading the story wolfeanly, looking for wolfean structure and expecting a naturalistic process behind the fantasy. I was reading it without any such notion, it was my first Wolfe reading, and I didn't have any interpretative baggage in mind. (Even today I can hardly pay attention to such background when reading whatever I'm reading; in a way, I'm glad of it.) And the matter is that I don't think Dorcas is a Wolfean puzzle, even if it is a puzzle written by Wolfe. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T00:09:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 21/05/2011, ?s 23:58, Jack Smith escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The mystery is not resolved until Book 4." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The realisation that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother, that is. The pieces only appear gradually. No one could guess them earlier (other than by random guess, which doesn't count). It's the association of Dorcas and Cas and the idea that Dorcas had been resurrected that one could get instantly with Dorcas's appearance - I mean, where the heck had she come from? And just a minute before there was a guy looking for someone of a name so similar that they could be variations? I found it obvious - but in what I now consider a very unwolfean way, so it's no wonder those familiar with Wolfe would not even think of asking those two questions. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD856B2.2030102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T00:20:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/21/2011 5:58 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nI did not realize it and I think that's what Wolfe intended. He wants\nher identify to be obscured. Look at the mysterious note that Severian\nfinds in the Inn of Lost Loves. The mystery is not resolved until Book\n4. Severian and the reader don't know who Dorcas is until the end of\nthe story" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read BOTNS with having read Wolfe before, but it was just after I had \nexhausted the last of the conventional Golden Age SF authors' works in \nthe local library, including a lot of detective and mystery stories. \nThis left me in the frame of mind to associate Cas with Dorcas on the \nfirst reading, but I figured it was too fantastic and kept on to see \nwhat the \"real\" explanation would be, like the Cathedral being a flying \ntent." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD90215.4060000@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-22T12:31:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I noticed that Cas and Dorcas means the same person at the first reading,\nbut of course I didn't guess that she is the grandmother of Severian until\nthe end of the 4-th book.\n\n- Did you realize what Hildegrin is doing at this lake?\n\n- At some point I noticed that the Lake of Birds reminds very much the \nDante's Inferno\nfilled by water, there is even a hint that something can penetrate into \nit from the other\nside of Urth (the Hell in Dante's poem is connected by a channel to the \nopposite side\nof the Earth where the mountain of Purgatory stands). There is also the\ncave of the Cumaean. The space-time in Botanic Gardens is twisted (remember\nJungle Garden - there the path is apparently going through time as well).\n\nbest\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jason H wrote:\nDid you know \"Cas\" was Dorcas right away?\n\nI didn't. When I read these books the first time, I didn't realize \nthat Dorcas had been one of the lake's dead until it was spelled out \nin the third book, and didn't realize she was the sought-after Cas \nuntil the fourth book. I read these books pretty carefully-- I knew \nthe towers were rockets right away, I picked up on little \ninconsistencies in the narrative... but I missed this connection \ncompletely.\n\nIn retrospect, it's totally obvious! The chapter in Shadow is called \n\"Dorcas\", for heaven's sake, and we're told someone is looking for a \n\"Cas\", and then a mysterious Dorcas appears. How can I not have \nimmediately realized who she was? Of course, the first time through, \nwe don't even know he has the Claw on him (let alone what it can do), \nand it's perhaps unintuitive to mentally pair the old man with the \nyoung Dorcas.\n\nSo I'm really curious to know whether I was just being dense, or \nwhether Wolfe was being particularly brilliant-- and audacious-- by \nsetting up a connection which he somehow knew people wouldn't make \nright away, despite its obviousness later on.\n\nI'm therefore curious to know: Was this obvious to you back in Shadow \nas soon as Dorcas appeared?\n\n\n-Jason\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nathan C. Tresch", "address": "nathanctresch at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T16:32:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD90215.4060000@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A question arising from Jerry's post...\n\nLater in the series the Hierodules inform Severian that the claw is actually\njust a gem with no special powers, so from that I inferred that Severian was\nalready connected to the coming of the new sun and the power he had was not\nconnected to the claw at all. Does this seem like a valid inference?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 5:31 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI noticed that Cas and Dorcas means the same person at the first reading,\nbut of course I didn't guess that she is the grandmother of Severian until\nthe end of the 4-th book.\n\n- Did you realize what Hildegrin is doing at this lake?\n\n- At some point I noticed that the Lake of Birds reminds very much the\nDante's Inferno\nfilled by water, there is even a hint that something can penetrate into it\nfrom the other\nside of Urth (the Hell in Dante's poem is connected by a channel to the\nopposite side\nof the Earth where the mountain of Purgatory stands). There is also the\ncave of the Cumaean. The space-time in Botanic Gardens is twisted (remember\nJungle Garden - there the path is apparently going through time as well).\n\nbest\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nJason H wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did you know \"Cas\" was Dorcas right away?\n\nI didn't. When I read these books the first time, I didn't realize that\nDorcas had been one of the lake's dead until it was spelled out in the third\nbook, and didn't realize she was the sought-after Cas until the fourth book.\nI read these books pretty carefully-- I knew the towers were rockets right\naway, I picked up on little inconsistencies in the narrative... but I missed\nthis connection completely.\n\nIn retrospect, it's totally obvious! The chapter in Shadow is called\n\"Dorcas\", for heaven's sake, and we're told someone is looking for a \"Cas\",\nand then a mysterious Dorcas appears. How can I not have immediately\nrealized who she was? Of course, the first time through, we don't even know\nhe has the Claw on him (let alone what it can do), and it's perhaps\nunintuitive to mentally pair the old man with the young Dorcas.\n\nSo I'm really curious to know whether I was just being dense, or whether\nWolfe was being particularly brilliant-- and audacious-- by setting up a\nconnection which he somehow knew people wouldn't make right away, despite\nits obviousness later on.\n\nI'm therefore curious to know: Was this obvious to you back in Shadow as\nsoon as Dorcas appeared?\n\n\n-Jason\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD93C2D.1060404@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-22T16:39:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Nathan,\n\nI think, yes, it is valid inference. As far as I remember, something is said\non this subject later, not only by Hierodules - and there is also \nhealing of Triskele -\nand in the 5-th book Severian travels to the deep past, as Apu-Punchau,\nand he is connected there already with his White Fountain -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nathan C. Tresch wrote:\nA question arising from Jerry's post...\n\nLater in the series the Hierodules inform Severian that the claw is \nactually just a gem with no special powers, so from that I inferred \nthat Severian was already connected to the coming of the new sun and \nthe power he had was not connected to the claw at all. Does this seem \nlike a valid inference?\n\nOn Sun, May 22, 2011 at 5:31 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV > wrote:\n\n I noticed that Cas and Dorcas means the same person at the first\n reading,\n but of course I didn't guess that she is the grandmother of\n Severian until\n the end of the 4-th book.\n\n - Did you realize what Hildegrin is doing at this lake?\n\n - At some point I noticed that the Lake of Birds reminds very much\n the Dante's Inferno\n filled by water, there is even a hint that something can penetrate\n into it from the other\n side of Urth (the Hell in Dante's poem is connected by a channel\n to the opposite side\n of the Earth where the mountain of Purgatory stands). There is\n also the\n cave of the Cumaean. The space-time in Botanic Gardens is twisted\n (remember\n Jungle Garden - there the path is apparently going through time as\n well).\n\n best\n\n Sergei Soloviev\n\n Jason H wrote:\n\n Did you know \"Cas\" was Dorcas right away?\n\n I didn't. When I read these books the first time, I didn't\n realize that Dorcas had been one of the lake's dead until it\n was spelled out in the third book, and didn't realize she was\n the sought-after Cas until the fourth book. I read these books\n pretty carefully-- I knew the towers were rockets right away,\n I picked up on little inconsistencies in the narrative... but\n I missed this connection completely.\n\n In retrospect, it's totally obvious! The chapter in Shadow is\n called \"Dorcas\", for heaven's sake, and we're told someone is\n looking for a \"Cas\", and then a mysterious Dorcas appears. How\n can I not have immediately realized who she was? Of course,\n the first time through, we don't even know he has the Claw on\n him (let alone what it can do), and it's perhaps unintuitive\n to mentally pair the old man with the young Dorcas.\n\n So I'm really curious to know whether I was just being dense,\n or whether Wolfe was being particularly brilliant-- and\n audacious-- by setting up a connection which he somehow knew\n people wouldn't make right away, despite its obviousness later on.\n\n I'm therefore curious to know: Was this obvious to you back in\n Shadow as soon as Dorcas appeared?\n\n\n -Jason\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DD943F5.8010707@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T17:12:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/22/2011 11:32 AM, Nathan C. Tresch wrote:\nA question arising from Jerry's post...\n\nLater in the series the Hierodules inform Severian that the claw is\nactually just a gem with no special powers, so from that I inferred that\nSeverian was already connected to the coming of the new sun and the\npower he had was not connected to the claw at all. Does this seem like\na valid inference?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There has to be some sort of connection to account for the brilliant \nblue glow. It might be just the relic of blood on the thorn that was \nencased in the gem, but that doesn't explain the lack of glow coming \nfrom any other of Severian's shed blood when he uses his restoring gift." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<446462.40996.qm@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-22T20:26:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD90215.4060000@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 5/22/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI noticed that Cas and Dorcas means\nthe same person at the first reading,\nbut of course I didn't guess that she is the grandmother of\nSeverian until\nthe end of the 4-th book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a real quick point, I think Cas as dorcas is such a huge part of wolfe's typical technique I am surprised it is considered non-wolfean: IDENTITY reveals plot deatils over and over, and is often hard to identify things that are really tied together by simple factual statements.\n\nie - eleanor bold planted a tree over weer, Mrs. Porter plants trees on the graves of her dead friends. Figure out Miss Bold is Mrs. Porter and that identification makes the narrator dead.\n\nPleistorus is Aries is ahura Mazda: figure out that connection and it makes a lot of sense if Aries, as per the poem, becomes tired of war.\n\nThe same in fifth head of Cerberus: identify the abo and the inmates and it makes more sense.\n\nAlso, Short Sun: Mostly Horn in volume 1, mostly Silk in volumes II and III, Pig as Silk to give the eye and get the reboot of Silk into his body at the end of book III - once you make the identity connections, the 1st and 3 rd person sections make perfect sense but are confusing before that.\n\nSo once you figure out the identity of two seemingly disparate characters or can identify them accurately, suddenly the whole story starts to make more sense, and this is so typical of wolfe one of the most important questions to ask of every character is \"Who is this, really?\" because those identifications reflect on the plot and structure of his work.\n\nMore than style, this is his most important theme: the ambiguous but centrally important mystery of identity. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T02:25:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<446462.40996.qm@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 22/05/2011, ?s 21:26, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just a real quick point, I think Cas as dorcas is such a huge part of wolfe's typical technique I am surprised it is considered non-wolfean: IDENTITY reveals plot deatils over and over, and is often hard to identify things that are really tied together by simple factual statements." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't mean that the plot itself is not wolfean, I rather meant the delivery - apparently the same name, obvious questions with apparent obvious answers, etc. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<594643.67958.qm@web161819.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T03:43:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, I got you, but I think he does that obvious answer stuff a lot too (\"kypris who was hyacinth who was mother\" type stuff, or \"Garsceg who was Setr\" (not sure if I remember that one right, but something like that from the Wizard Knight) pretty straightforward identity statements but obviously somehow open to a whole lot of interpretations)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 5/22/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nI didn't mean that the plot itself is not wolfean, I rather\nmeant the delivery - apparently the same name, obvious\nquestions with apparent obvious answers, etc. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T05:35:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<594643.67958.qm@web161819.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I might have a different take on Wolfe's difficulties. He does have identity\npuzzles, yes. (In the Wizard-Knight, a less obvious one is: Who killed the\nGiant King? The answer is strongly hinted, so it's not really that\ndebatable, but it's never explicitly stated.)\n\nBut I don't think the identity puzzles are the real reason why Wolfe is\ndifficult. I think he's difficult because he writes so obliquely about\npuzzling things, like space travel with mirrors, and 20th-century people\ntrapped in Urth's Botanic Gardens, and Miles-as-Jonas. There is a sense of\nwondrous revelation that you, as a reader, almost but don't quite get, and I\nthink that wonder is what Wolfe is really aiming at, and dealing with the\nambiguities and uncertainties of these partially-explained wonders makes\nreading Wolfe hard and tricky. (And frustrating. And great!)\n\nThese, for me, are the real \"puzzles\" of Wolfe, and not the logistical\nidentity questions. I don't have much interest in mapping out Severian's\nfamily tree (other than hints of the grandmother and the mother). In fact,\nI've always thought the identity puzzles are either obvious by the end of\nthe book, or, honestly, non-existent and totally unsupported by the text.\nWolfe is smart and clever, but I don't think the way he shows his cleverness\nis by leaving elaborate clues at that level of misdirection. At the level of\ntower-as-rocket, yes. But more elaborate and obscured than that, I've never\nseen evidence for. It just doesn't strike me as the kind of thing he's\ninterested in (based on reading interviews and Castle of the Otter).\n\nCaveat: I'm relatively new to Wolfe, having only read the Wizard-Knight and\nthe Book of the New Sun (I haven't even read Urth yet).\n\nBut does anyone agree with me? :)\n\nAnd does anyone know if Wolfe has ever voiced any opinion on the kind of\nexegesis found e.g. in Robert Borski's book? I'd be very curious!\n\n-Jason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nRight, I got you, but I think he does that obvious answer stuff a lot too\n(\"kypris who was hyacinth who was mother\" type stuff, or \"Garsceg who was\nSetr\" (not sure if I remember that one right, but something like that from\nthe Wizard Knight) pretty straightforward identity statements but obviously\nsomehow open to a whole lot of interpretations)\n\n--- On Sun, 5/22/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't mean that the plot itself is not wolfean, I rather\nmeant the delivery - apparently the same name, obvious\nquestions with apparent obvious answers, etc.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-05-23T07:24:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 22 May 2011, Jason H wrote:\nThese, for me, are the real \"puzzles\" of Wolfe, and not the logistical\nidentity questions. I don't have much interest in mapping out Severian's\nfamily tree (other than hints of the grandmother and the mother). In fact,\nI've always thought the identity puzzles are either obvious by the end of\nthe book, or, honestly, non-existent and totally unsupported by the text.\nWolfe is smart and clever, but I don't think the way he shows his cleverness\nis by leaving elaborate clues at that level of misdirection. At the level of\ntower-as-rocket, yes. But more elaborate and obscured than that, I've never\nseen evidence for. It just doesn't strike me as the kind of thing he's\ninterested in (based on reading interviews and Castle of the Otter)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't find the interview or article where Wolfe explains a few puzzles \nand symbols in New Sun -- I think they were all from one page of the text. \nI thought it was a response to Clute or Feeley.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA4E15.8060102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-23T12:07:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/23/2011 1:35 AM, Jason H wrote:\nI might have a different take on Wolfe's difficulties. He does have \nidentity puzzles, yes. (In the Wizard-Knight, a less obvious one is: \nWho killed the Giant King? The answer is strongly hinted, so it's not \nreally that debatable, but it's never explicitly stated.)\n\nBut I don't think the identity puzzles are the real reason why Wolfe \nis difficult. I think he's difficult because he writes so obliquely \nabout puzzling things, like space travel with mirrors, and \n20th-century people trapped in Urth's Botanic Gardens, and \nMiles-as-Jonas. There is a sense of wondrous revelation that you, as a \nreader, almost but don't quite get, and I think that wonder is what \nWolfe is really aiming at, and dealing with the ambiguities and \nuncertainties of these partially-explained wonders makes reading Wolfe \nhard and tricky. (And frustrating. And great!)\n\nThese, for me, are the real \"puzzles\" of Wolfe, and not the logistical \nidentity questions. I don't have much interest in mapping out \nSeverian's family tree (other than hints of the grandmother and the \nmother). In fact, I've always thought the identity puzzles are either \nobvious by the end of the book, or, honestly, non-existent and totally \nunsupported by the text. Wolfe is smart and clever, but I don't think \nthe way he shows his cleverness is by leaving elaborate clues at that \nlevel of misdirection. At the level of tower-as-rocket, yes. But more \nelaborate and obscured than that, I've never seen evidence for. It \njust doesn't strike me as the kind of thing he's interested in (based \non reading interviews and Castle of the Otter).\n\nCaveat: I'm relatively new to Wolfe, having only read the \nWizard-Knight and the Book of the New Sun (I haven't even read Urth yet).\n\nBut does anyone agree with me? :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're right: Wolfe's puzzles are fairly in the open. Hidden \npuzzles that are purported to exist, IMHO, just don't.\n\nAs an example, I think the current discussion attempting to relate \nvarious 17s, while perfectly understandable, logical, and even laudable, \nis a dead end. The theory of the \"Identity of 17s\" assumes way too much \ninterest on Wolfe's part, as well as counting on his own assumption that \nhis reader is all that interested in this kind of mystery. It's all \nfuture secret history, not a plot point, so there is no need for a \npuzzle to be there at all." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T12:33:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA4E15.8060102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: There has to be some sort of connection to account for the brilliant \nblue glow. It might be just the relic of blood on the thorn that was \nencased in the gem, but that doesn't explain the lack of glow coming \nfrom any other of Severian's shed blood when he uses his restoring gift." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nIIRC, the thorn is drenched in Severian's blood soon after he eats the brain of the old\nAutarch, becoming the New Sun (within the confines of the story of the first 4 books).\n \nI suppose any blood he shed previous to that (at Baldanders Castle, at Orithya, etc.)\nwas just the blood of the guy, Severian, and has no power. Thus, Severian's powers actually\ndo come from the jewel for most of the story.\n \nI give Wolfe a bit of literary license for UotNS. Faced with the choice of Severian shedding \nno blood in that story or having every violent episode creating \"Claws\" out of Sidero's fist,\nfusil butts and pavement stones, I guess Wolfe decided to skim over that difficulty and reserve \nthe claw puncture as a one-time mystical event.\n \nI'd say the ploughman's explanation for the color is that the claw is encased withing a \nsapphire jewel. Once it is freed of that encasement, the claw's light is white. The choice of blue \nis a nod to the doppler blue shift appearance of the White Fountain as it hurtles toward Urth. Blue \nmay also lend itself to the phenomenon for which Severian feels the light from the jewel is cold, \nas it represents energy leaving him, while it is a warm light to those receiving the energy.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA6F10.4070103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T14:28:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA4E15.8060102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (23-05-2011 13:07):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you're right: Wolfe's puzzles are fairly in the open. Hidden puzzles\nthat are purported to exist, IMHO, just don't.\n\nAs an example, I think the current discussion attempting to relate various\n17s, while perfectly understandable, logical, and even laudable, is a dead\nend. The theory of the \"Identity of 17s\" assumes way too much interest on\nWolfe's part, as well as counting on his own assumption that his reader is\nall that interested in this kind of mystery. It's all future secret history,\nnot a plot point, so there is no need for a puzzle to be there at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the same about this as do about all else: it it makes for a richer \nreading somewhere, go for it - but richer should usually mean something more \nthan just 'normal plus it'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA7D57.4010505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T15:29:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA4E15.8060102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jason H. wrote:\nWolfe is smart and clever, but I don't think the way he shows his \ncleverness is by leaving elaborate clues at that level of \nmisdirection. At the level of tower-as-rocket, yes. But more elaborate \nand obscured than that, I've never seen evidence for. It just doesn't \nstrike me as the kind of thing he's interested in (based on reading \ninterviews and Castle of the Otter). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jason,\nI rather than a response, I recommend to you this essay as a starting place:\nhttp://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10536\n\nWolfe seems to deliberately write his stories with much more back-story \nthan he intends his narrators reveal or know. And the elements of that \nback-story are often not incidental.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA7E8F.6010702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T15:34:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA7D57.4010505@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (23-05-2011 16:29):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe seems to deliberately write his stories with much more back-story than\nhe intends his narrators reveal or know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because that's how it is in the 'real world'." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bart Everson", "address": "b at rox.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T15:53:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been so long since I first read these I can't say whether I got\nit or not first time through.\n\nBut I do want to say what I find totally brilliant about this\nencounter is that Wolfe has Dorcas pulling Severian from the water\nrather than the other way around.\n\nThat sort of inversion or reversal is classic Wolfe to me.\n\nEditor B" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Jason H wrote:\nDid you know \"Cas\" was Dorcas right away?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA85E8.7090609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T16:06:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA7E8F.6010702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "J Wynn:\nWolfe seems to deliberately write his stories with much more \nback-story than\nhe intends his narrators reveal or know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques:\nBecause that's how it is in the 'real world'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. But the significance of that back-story strikes me as something \nunique to Wolfe. That Weer is dead (and not dying and crazy). That \nSandwalker is a Shadow Child, and the whole origin of the abos/Shadow \nChildren. What the gods' game is in fighting over Latro's attention. The \nancestry of Silk. The nature of Silver Silk and Silent Silk. The sense \nthat there's something off about Hy. What the heck is going on on Blue: \nMother, Seawrack, the Rajan's staff. And, yes, Wolfe did not intend to \nexplain Apu Punchau. It is inevitable that people will try to work out \nwhat these elements are...even though it is likely (based on the \nsolution to the Apu Punchau mystery) that they can be resolved beyond \nfurther dispute.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T16:12:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA85E8.7090609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 9:06 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nIt is inevitable that people will try to work out what these\nelements are...even though it is likely (based on the solution to the Apu\nPunchau mystery) that they can be resolved beyond further dispute." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm guessing you meant to write \"not likely.\"\n\nAt any rate, I want to think that anything we can't resolve is not (in\nany ultimate sense) important to understanding what Wolfe wants us to\nunderstand -- that is, if there is ambiguity in the story, then he\nintends ambiguity in the \"meaning\" of the story. Sort of like the\ncosmological equivalent of a \"choose your own adventure\" book.\n\nFor example: I am convinced (and have held forth on this before) that\nevery universe Wolfe creates is in some way _embedded_ in orthodox\nCatholic theology. That is not provable from the texts, and someone\nwho disagrees will not take the same \"meaning\" away from the texts\nthat I do.\n\n(This is also, I suspect, intended as a lesson about Biblical\nexigesis... what we come away from the texts with depends on what we\nbring to the texts, and we can't impose one reading on all readers.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA880A.6030203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T16:15:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "j wynn:\nIt is inevitable that people will try to work out what these\nelements are...even though it is likely (based on the solution to the Apu\nPunchau mystery) that they can be resolved beyond further dispute." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l:\nI'm guessing you meant to write \"not likely.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. \"NOT likely\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<394046.28462.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T16:27:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At any rate, I want to think that anything we can't resolve is not (in" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "any ultimate sense) important to understanding what Wolfe wants us to\nunderstand -- that is, if there is ambiguity in the story, then he\nintends ambiguity in the \"meaning\" of the story. Sort of like the\ncosmological equivalent of a \"choose your own adventure\" book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is often where I end up with many of the \"puzzles\" in Wolfe stories. For \nexample, it's important to me in _The Sorcerer's House_ that Dunn *might* just \nbe putting on an elaborate con. I don't think he is in the final analysis, but \nthat book seems to me so thematically forceful on the point that magic involves \nas much deception and confusion as supernatural power, that it has to at least \nbe a possibility that the text offers.\n\nThe same with Severian and his true nature. It seems important to how that book \npresents religious truth as often dark and misleading that Severian himself has \nto be at once a potential Messiah and a potential dupe of aliens. The \npossibility that he might be both at the same time is way more interesting (and \nsays a lot more about human relations to the divine, even for an orthodox \nbeliever) than if he's just a Christ allegory." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T16:36:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<394046.28462.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jason H.: Wolfe is smart and clever, but I don't think the way he shows his \ncleverness is by leaving elaborate clues at that level of \nmisdirection. At the level of tower-as-rocket, yes. But more elaborate \nand obscured than that, I've never seen evidence for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn:..rather than a response, I recommend to you this essay as a starting place:\nhttp://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10536" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nA good response I think, James. Andre-Driussi is certainly a Wolfe authority as much as\nanyone can be. There may be some who will dispute his solutions for the highly \nveiled mysteries of Severian's dual-track identity as Apu Punchau or the sail-scrap \norigin of Hethor's mirrors. But it is nearly impossible to dispute that Wolfe's original\n4-book BotNS had only the barest evidence for a Flood, while the added final book makes that \nconclusion incontrovertible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bart Everson: It's been so long since I first read these I can't say whether I got\nit or not first time through." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Count me among those who did not get it the first time. Apologies for any presumption but\nI think that all those who say they did get it the first time are non-native American English \nspeakers.\n \nPart of the disguise of Dorcas is the American English pronunciation which is Dor'-kis. The\nstress on the first syllable and the vowel distortion in the second makes us rather unlikely\nto connect the name Cas to Dorcas. I think non-native speakers are more likely to pronounce\nthe \"a\" in Dorcas as an \"a\" sound than native speakers. (shows we are speaking, not just \nreading these names in our heads).\n \nAlso, perhaps based on the tendency for English speakers to stress the first syllable, we tend\nto draw nicknames from the first syllable of two-syllable names. Thomas becomes Tom, not \"Mas\".\nKathryn becomes Kathy, not \"Thryn\". I do know an Andrew who is nicknamed \"Drew\" but \"Andy\" is \nmore common.\n \nI daresay Mas would be as equal a disguise for a character named Thomas as Cas is for Dorcas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T16:50:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n[I]t is nearly impossible to dispute that Wolfe's original\n4-book BotNS had only the barest evidence for a Flood, while the added final book makes that\nconclusion incontrovertible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, Lee, but I must disagree with this. It seemed obvious to me\nthat Dr. Talos' play was supposed to be taken as unknowingly prophetic\n(in the same way that the High Priest in the Gospel is unknowingly\nprophetic when he says that it is better that one man die for the\nnation), and that the general outline, if not the details, were to be\ntaken seriously." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T16:54:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA7D57.4010505@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the recommendation, James. I've seen that article before, but I'm\ngoing to hold off on actually reading it until I read _Urth of the New Sun_\n(which will happen once I finish my reread of the four books).\n\nI agree with a lot of what folks are saying, and I do think Wolfe makes you\nfigure lots of things out. But to me, the only things for us to figure out\nare things that Gene Wolfe himself knows about and intentionally put in. I\ncan't imagine him saying, if asked, that he really intended e.g. Agia to be\nSev's cousin-- that he purposely and cleverly scattered clues so that a\ncareful reader would receive that particular revelation. Whereas it's clear\nthat he intended the Citadel towers to be rockets, even though you have to\nwork to see it, and might miss it.\n\nI'm not saying New Sun doesn't contain deep mysteries. I'm saying its\nmysteries are more ambiguous, and less answer-oriented, than these kinds of\nidentity puzzles, which seem made up by the readers. No disrespect intended\nto Robert Borski or anyone on these forums who finds these kinds of analyses\nfruitful. You guys are awesome, and I hope to get to know the novels as well\nas you. I just disagree with you in some ways on what's interesting here. :)\n\n-Jason\n\np.s. The issue of puzzles and author intentions can get tricky. When I read\nMargaret Atwood's _The Handmaid's Tale_, I thought I was so clever by\nfiguring out the narrator's true name. It was subtle, but it was clearly\nthere. Or so I thought. Years later, I heard Atwood interviewed on the\nradio, and someone asked about that name. She said that she understood why\npeople thought it was what I had thought, but this was totally unintentional\non her part! I was shocked. I'm still not sure if I believe her. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 8:29 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nJason H. wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is smart and clever, but I don't think the way he shows his\ncleverness is by leaving elaborate clues at that level of misdirection. At\nthe level of tower-as-rocket, yes. But more elaborate and obscured than\nthat, I've never seen evidence for. It just doesn't strike me as the kind of\nthing he's interested in (based on reading interviews and Castle of the\nOtter)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jason,\nI rather than a response, I recommend to you this essay as a starting\nplace:\nhttp://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10536\n\nWolfe seems to deliberately write his stories with much more back-story\nthan he intends his narrators reveal or know. And the elements of that\nback-story are often not incidental.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7C1C507C20AC4DF5AFE9DB54842F857B@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:01:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jason H " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I don't think the identity puzzles are the real reason why Wolfe\n is difficult. I think he's difficult because he writes so obliquely about \npuzzling things, like space travel with mirrors, and 20th-century people\n trapped in Urth's Botanic Gardens, and Miles-as-Jonas. There is a \nsense of wondrous revelation that you, as a reader, almost but don't \nquite get, and I think that wonder is what Wolfe is really aiming at, \nand dealing with the ambiguities and uncertainties of these partially-\nexplained wonders makes reading Wolfe hard and tricky. (And \nfrustrating. And great!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think the oblique descriptions of events are the tricky bit. Wolfe also likes the notion that the attentive reader should only need to be told something once, so there tends to be a detective-story element to understanding the stories. Identity puzzles do occur, but they are just one type of puzzle. \n\nI think Wolfe would say that most of his puzzles have explicit solutions with adequate clues, but that is a difficult thing to arrange. It should be noted that the solution of any detective story involves (as Sherlock Holmes noted) eliminating the impossible to reveal the unlikely but true solution. Readers who embrace too carelessly the impossible may therefore find themselves thinking that Wolfe is extraordinally ambiguous, whereas readers who dismiss too easily the unlikely may find them lacking in solutions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These, for me, are the real \"puzzles\" of Wolfe, and not the logistical \nidentity questions. I don't have much interest in mapping out Severian's \nfamily tree (other than hints of the grandmother and the mother). In fact, \nI've always thought the identity puzzles are either obvious by the end \nof the book, or, honestly, non-existent and totally unsupported by the \ntext. Wolfe is smart and clever, but I don't think the way he shows his \ncleverness is by leaving elaborate clues at that level of misdirection. \nAt the level of tower-as-rocket, yes. But more elaborate and obscured \nthan that, I've never seen evidence for. It just doesn't strike me as the \nkind of thing he's interested in (based on reading interviews and Castle \nof the Otter)\n\nCaveat: I'm relatively new to Wolfe, having only read the Wizard-Knight \nand the Book of the New Sun (I haven't even read Urth yet)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But does anyone agree with me? :) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do, in general." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And does anyone know if Wolfe has ever voiced any opinion on the kind \nof exegesis found e.g. in Robert Borski's book? I'd be very curious!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have a reference, but I think he may have referred at some point to \"the crazy things some people find in my books\" or something of that nature.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<699480.29449.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:11:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<7C1C507C20AC4DF5AFE9DB54842F857B@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 5/23/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI think Wolfe would say that most of his puzzles have explicit solutions with adequate clues, but that is a difficult thing to arrange. ?It should be noted that the solution of any detective story involves (as Sherlock Holmes noted) eliminating the impossible to reveal the unlikely but true solution. Readers who embrace?too carelessly the impossible may therefore find themselves thinking that Wolfe is extraordinally ambiguous, whereas readers who dismiss too easily the unlikely may find them lacking in solutions.\nwell put! Having an engineering background may help in this process of sorting the impossible from the merely unlikely." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:18:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<699480.29449.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes- Sorry, Lee, but I must disagree with this. It seemed obvious to me\nthat Dr. Talos' play was supposed to be taken as unknowingly prophetic" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nWell, it isn't only Dr. Talos' play in which a flood is alluded to. I know of a couple \nothers and Andre-Driussi asserts there are seven. So, I stand corrected and the conclusion \nthat Wolfe intended his readers to deduce a Flood in the first four books is not incontrovertible. \n\nDan'l, in your view were the first seven mentions of a Flood meant as non-directional Biblical/\ngeological references? And Wolfe drew upon these only post-hoc while writing UotNS?\n \nFor me the opposite seems more likely, as there seem to be many other examples where Wolfe\nreally expects his readers to figure something out but none do (or it takes 20+ years for an \nespecially astute reader to get it and pass it along to others). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:29:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman ", "from": { "name": "Brian Short", "address": "brian.short at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:43:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DD90215.4060000@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Did you realize what Hildegrin is doing at this lake?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no idea. Is he summoning his menagerie?\n\nThanks,\n-Brian" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDAA4A5.3080104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:17:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n[I]t is nearly impossible to dispute that Wolfe's original\n4-book BotNS had only the barest evidence for a Flood, while the added final book makes that\nconclusion incontrovertible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Dan'l Danehy-Oakes:\nSorry, Lee, but I must disagree with this. It seemed obvious to me\nthat Dr. Talos' play was supposed to be taken as unknowingly prophetic\n(in the same way that the High Priest in the Gospel is unknowingly\nprophetic when he says that it is better that one man die for the\nnation), and that the general outline, if not the details, were to be\ntaken seriously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. This is the same way I say \"The Story of Frog\" should be \nread and \"The Story of the Student and His Son\".\nBut because the \"answer\" hasn't been provided, people continue to treat \nthem as literary larks.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDAA583.1020908@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:20:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Menagerie... If you mean - looking for good fresh corpses - yes, because\nhe is one of the followers of Vodalus, who are corpse-eaters (they want \nto recover\npersonalities and memories of the dead).\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Brian Short wrote:\n- Did you realize what Hildegrin is doing at this lake?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no idea. Is he summoning his menagerie?\n\nThanks,\n-Brian\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brian Short", "address": "brian.short at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:34:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDAA583.1020908@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ooops, I had confused Hethor and Hildegrin.\n\nThanks,\n-Brian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nMenagerie... If you mean - looking for good fresh corpses - yes, because\nhe is one of the followers of Vodalus, who are corpse-eaters (they want to\nrecover\npersonalities and memories of the dead).\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\nBrian Short wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "- Did you realize what Hildegrin is doing at this lake?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have no idea. Is he summoning his menagerie?\n\nThanks,\n-Brian\n__________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<665285.78886.qm@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T19:05:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA4E15.8060102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[no hidden puzzles]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As an example, I think the current discussion attempting to relate various 17s, \nwhile perfectly understandable, logical, and even laudable, is a dead end. The \ntheory of the \"Identity of 17s\" assumes way too much interest on Wolfe's part, \nas well as counting on his own assumption that his reader is all that interested \nin this kind of mystery. It's all future secret history, not a plot point, so \nthere is no need for a puzzle to be there at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that it's not a plot point. All I really wanted was to suggest that \npeople not use \"megatherians\"?to mean the alien monsters as if there were a \nconsensus on the subject, and to point out a different speculation for those who \nwere interested. It's clear there isn't.\n\nBy the way, \"for the record\" I had no idea the old man's \"Cas\" was Dorcas. I \nprobably realized that on some reread. It's even possible that I needed it \npointed out (maybe here). Lee Berman's point about the pronunciation was part \nof it.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDADB69.4060708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T22:10:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<665285.78886.qm@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nAll I really wanted was to suggest that people not use \"megatherians\" to\nmean the alien monsters as if there were a consensus on the subject, and\nto point out a different speculation for those who were interested. It's\nclear there isn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, the mentioning of fringe, not consensual or even just not enoughly\ndiscussed ideas as if they were canon annoys me to no end. Here as anywhere\nelse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, \"for the record\" I had no idea the old man's \"Cas\" was\nDorcas. I probably realized that on some reread. It's even possible\nthat I needed it pointed out (maybe here). Lee Berman's point about the\npronunciation was part of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should point out that my instictive reading of Dorcas was DAWRK-us (gave \nup on IPA), possibly not that far from the AmE pronunciation, but not being \nacquainted with the name I switfly considered door-KAZZ, seeing as there was \na guy nearby looking for a KAZZ. My language's orthography is more \n(morpho)phonemic than phonetic, but unstressed sounds, although reduced, \naren't neutralised as in english (so unstressed e/i may merge, as may o/u, \nbut a doesn't merge with anything), so we do pay attention to the graphic \npart of it because it does line up with the pronunciation, even if the rules \nare complex (they're part of the language, anyway)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<465CFE78-57DD-44BA-95F9-E02A1B38CF2F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T02:04:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<7C1C507C20AC4DF5AFE9DB54842F857B@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 23/05/2011, ?s 18:01, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Readers who embrace too carelessly the impossible may therefore find themselves thinking that Wolfe is extraordinally ambiguous, whereas readers who dismiss too easily the unlikely may find them lacking in solutions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+1 (I'm a dense reader myself, so I'm not implying my reading is the best)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<992440.50784.qm@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T05:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDADB69.4060708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "but one more thing: any bible thumping type would immediately associate Dorcas with resurrection as soon as they heard the name, that's just the way it is in the bible and the way Wolfe works. He plays by the cultural symbolist rules to build up meaning to some degree, even though he is a bit sneakier than most." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Mon, 5/23/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nelse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, \"for the record\" I had no idea the old\nman's \"Cas\" was\nDorcas. I probably realized that on some\nreread. It's even possible\nthat I needed it pointed out (maybe here). Lee\nBerman's point about the\npronunciation was part of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should point out that my instictive reading of Dorcas was\nDAWRK-us (gave up on IPA), possibly not that far from the\nAmE pronunciation, but not being acquainted with the name I\nswitfly considered door-KAZZ, seeing as there was a guy\nnearby looking for a KAZZ. My language's orthography is more\n(morpho)phonemic than phonetic, but unstressed sounds,\nalthough reduced, aren't neutralised as in english (so\nunstressed e/i may merge, as may o/u, but a doesn't merge\nwith anything), so we do pay attention to the graphic part\nof it because it does line up with the pronunciation, even\nif the rules are complex (they're part of the language,\nanyway).\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDB9BC4.3060303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-24T11:51:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<992440.50784.qm@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean, because, known by the name Tabitha, she was raised from the \ndead by Peter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/24/2011 1:26 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nbut one more thing: any bible thumping type would immediately associate Dorcas with resurrection as soon as they heard the name, that's just the way it is in the bible and the way Wolfe works. He plays by the cultural symbolist rules to build up meaning to some degree, even though he is a bit sneakier than most.\n\n--- On Mon, 5/23/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "else.\nBy the way, \"for the record\" I had no idea the old\nman's \"Cas\" was\nDorcas. I probably realized that on some\nreread. It's even possible\nthat I needed it pointed out (maybe here). Lee\nBerman's point about the\npronunciation was part of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I should point out that my instictive reading of Dorcas was\nDAWRK-us (gave up on IPA), possibly not that far from the\nAmE pronunciation, but not being acquainted with the name I\nswitfly considered door-KAZZ, seeing as there was a guy\nnearby looking for a KAZZ. My language's orthography is more\n(morpho)phonemic than phonetic, but unstressed sounds,\nalthough reduced, aren't neutralised as in english (so\nunstressed e/i may merge, as may o/u, but a doesn't merge\nwith anything), so we do pay attention to the graphic part\nof it because it does line up with the pronunciation, even\nif the rules are complex (they're part of the language,\nanyway).\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T12:48:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDB9BC4.3060303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: my instictive reading of Dorcas was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAWRK-us (gave up on IPA), possibly not that far from the\nAmE pronunciation,but not being acquainted with the name I\nswitfly considered door-KAZZ, seeing as there was a guy\nnearby looking for a KAZZ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, that is to my point. An AmE speaker seeing the name \"Cas\" even if he/she \nknows it to be a nickname, will not be sure whether to pronounce it \"cass\" as\nin \"Cassandra\" or \"Kazz\" as in \"Casdoe\".\n \nBut seeing the name Dorcas, we do not think of \"cass\" or \"kazz\" as\nthe pronunuciation of the second syllable. For us it is \"kis\" or \"kus\". Antonio, \nI am thinking in your language the name Tomas' is pronounced in a way in which\n\"Mas\" could be an extractible nickname. Not so for the English Thomas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini- but one more thing: any bible thumping type would immediately associate \nDorcas with resurrection as soon as they heard the name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nWolfe may have aimed that name at Biblical scholars. I know I hadn't heard of the \nresurrected Dorcas until after reading BotNS and doing some research. I have the \nfeeling the \"gazelle\" reference in her name is also important. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T12:48:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: my instictive reading of Dorcas was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAWRK-us (gave up on IPA), possibly not that far from the\nAmE pronunciation,but not being acquainted with the name I\nswitfly considered door-KAZZ, seeing as there was a guy\nnearby looking for a KAZZ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, that is to my point. An AmE speaker seeing the name \"Cas\" even if he/she \nknows it to be a nickname, will not be sure whether to pronounce it \"cass\" as\nin \"Cassandra\" or \"Kazz\" as in \"Casdoe\".\n \nBut seeing the name Dorcas, we do not think of \"cass\" or \"kazz\" as\nthe pronunuciation of the second syllable. For us it is \"kis\" or \"kus\". Antonio, \nI am thinking in your language the name Tomas' is pronounced in a way in which\n\"Mas\" could be an extractible nickname. Not so for the English Thomas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini- but one more thing: any bible thumping type would immediately associate \nDorcas with resurrection as soon as they heard the name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nWolfe may have aimed that name at Biblical scholars. I know I hadn't heard of the \nresurrected Dorcas until after reading BotNS and doing some research. I have the \nfeeling the \"gazelle\" reference in her name is also important. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fernando Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2011-05-24T12:49:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<992440.50784.qm@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, of course Dorcas immediately brings Acts 9 to mind, and the natural associations are ressurection, her other name Tabitha, and making clothes for the poor. I guess that's why I knew at once she had been in the lake of the dead.\n\n================\nFernando Q. Gouv?a\nfqgouvea at colby.edu" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 24, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nbut one more thing: any bible thumping type would immediately associate Dorcas with resurrection as soon as they heard the name, that's just the way it is in the bible and the way Wolfe works. He plays by the cultural symbolist rules to build up meaning to some degree, even though he is a bit sneakier than most.\n\n--- On Mon, 5/23/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By the way, \"for the record\" I had no idea the old\nman's \"Cas\" was\nDorcas. I probably realized that on some\nreread. It's even possible\nthat I needed it pointed out (maybe here). Lee\nBerman's point about the\npronunciation was part of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I should point out that my instictive reading of Dorcas was\nDAWRK-us (gave up on IPA), possibly not that far from the\nAmE pronunciation, but not being acquainted with the name I\nswitfly considered door-KAZZ, seeing as there was a guy\nnearby looking for a KAZZ. My language's orthography is more\n(morpho)phonemic than phonetic, but unstressed sounds,\nalthough reduced, aren't neutralised as in english (so\nunstressed e/i may merge, as may o/u, but a doesn't merge\nwith anything), so we do pay attention to the graphic part\nof it because it does line up with the pronunciation, even\nif the rules are complex (they're part of the language,\nanyway).\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDBAE40.3010901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T13:10:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDB9BC4.3060303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Acts gives both names.\n\nOf course, the names Wolfe selects do not always have an obvious purpose \nto them. So it's understandable that even a \"bible thumper\", as Antonio \ncalls people who are familiar with the Bible, could reasonably have \nmissed the hint.\nThe Book of the New Sun was the first thing I had ever read by Wolfe. \nFrankly, when I read it the first round, it felt like one of those late \n60s and 70s movies where the protagonist just moves aimlessly from one \nscene and strange group of characters to the next (Easy Rider, Mean \nStreets, Vanishing Point). I've said before that while I was reading \nSword of the Lictor, my wife asked \"What is it about?\" and I answered, \n\"I have no idea.\" \"So, why are you reading it?\" \"I have to find out how \nit ends.\"\n\nI told my friend who loaned me the books that Wolfe was a tremendous \ncreator of worlds but a so-so writer. And then I read \"Fifth Head\" and \nunderstood how to read Wolfe; then I was telling people he was the best \nSF writer period.\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/24/2011 6:51 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYou mean, because, known by the name Tabitha, she was raised from the \ndead by Peter." } ] }, { "message_id": "<589011E7B80F4C48BC1AB0762B9391CC@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-24T13:37:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<465CFE78-57DD-44BA-95F9-E02A1B38CF2F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nNo dia 23/05/2011, ?s 18:01, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Readers who embrace too carelessly the impossible may therefore find \nthemselves thinking that Wolfe is extraordinally ambiguous, whereas \nreaders who dismiss too easily the unlikely may find them lacking in \nsolutions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "+1 (I'm a dense reader myself, so I'm not implying my reading is the best)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you. Obviusly I make the comment from my own perspective, thinking - \nbut don't we all even if modesty makes it hard to say - that I am a \nreasonably good reader of Wolfe, or at least a good assessor of different \nideas about his books (I am probably not especially creative when it comes \nto inventing new ideas). And it would be disingenuous of me not to admit \nthat I see most of my battles on this newsgroup as being with people who \nlean too much towards embracing impossible theories.\n\nThat is logical, though, as people of the kind who dismiss the unlikely \nprobably won't show up too often on a list like this. You will see reviews \nof Wolfe from time to time that exclaim \"why do people rave about this guy, \nstuff happens in his books for no reason and nothing is explained!\" I think \nthose reviews are from that kind of folks, and they will generally then put \nWolfe down and find some author more to their liking. So I suppose it's \ninevitable that the average perspective in a list like this will lean \ntowards overly fantastical interpretations.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDBD3D5.6030109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T15:50:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/24/2011 7:48 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nAntonio Pedro Marques: my instictive reading of Dorcas was\nDAWRK-us (gave up on IPA), possibly not that far from the\nAmE pronunciation,but not being acquainted with the name I\nswitfly considered door-KAZZ, seeing as there was a guy\nnearby looking for a KAZZ.\n\nYes, that is to my point. An AmE speaker seeing the name \"Cas\" even if he/she\nknows it to be a nickname, will not be sure whether to pronounce it \"cass\" as\nin \"Cassandra\" or \"Kazz\" as in \"Casdoe\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do we know Casdoe is a Kazz, then? I thought it was Kass-Dough." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<787341.49609.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-24T15:57:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"making clothes for the poor\"\n\nOf course! I just read the wiki but did not make the connection.\n\nDorcas made clothes for the poor; Agia buys rags and used clothing from the poor. I suppose these may be complementary rather than opposite functions, but they also try to cheat or mug the rich. Did Agia and her brother buy their shop from Dorcas' parents? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/24/11, Fernando Gouvea wrote:\nFrom: Fernando Gouvea \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, May 24, 2011, 8:49 AM\nYes, of course Dorcas immediately\nbrings Acts 9 to mind, and the natural associations are\nressurection, her other name Tabitha, and making clothes for\nthe poor. I guess that's why I knew at once she had been in\nthe lake of the dead.\n\n================\nFernando Q. Gouv?a\nfqgouvea at colby.edu\n\n\n\nOn May 24, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but one more thing: any bible thumping type would\nimmediately associate Dorcas with resurrection as soon as\nthey heard the name, that's just the way it is in the bible\nand the way Wolfe works. He plays by the cultural\nsymbolist rules to build up meaning to some degree, even\nthough he is a bit sneakier than most.\n\n--- On Mon, 5/23/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "By the way, \"for the record\" I had no idea the\nold\nman's \"Cas\" was\nDorcas. I probably realized that on\nsome\nreread. It's even possible\nthat I needed it pointed out (maybe\nhere). Lee\nBerman's point about the\npronunciation was part of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I should point out that my instictive reading of\nDorcas was\nDAWRK-us (gave up on IPA), possibly not that far\nfrom the\nAmE pronunciation, but not being acquainted with\nthe name I\nswitfly considered door-KAZZ, seeing as there was\na guy\nnearby looking for a KAZZ. My language's\northography is more\n(morpho)phonemic than phonetic, but unstressed\nsounds,\nalthough reduced, aren't neutralised as in english\n(so\nunstressed e/i may merge, as may o/u, but a\ndoesn't merge\nwith anything), so we do pay attention to the\ngraphic part\nof it because it does line up with the\npronunciation, even\nif the rules are complex (they're part of the\nlanguage,\nanyway).\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<404332.7866.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-24T16:03:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDBAE40.3010901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, \"bible thumpers\" are people who are OVERLY familiar with the Bible. If the shoe fits ....\n\n;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/24/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, May 24, 2011, 9:10 AM\nActs gives both names.\n\nOf course, the names Wolfe selects do not always have an\nobvious purpose to them. So it's understandable that even a\n\"bible thumper\", as Antonio calls people who are familiar\nwith the Bible, could reasonably have missed the hint.\nThe Book of the New Sun was the first thing I had ever read\nby Wolfe. Frankly, when I read it the first round, it felt\nlike one of those late 60s and 70s movies where the\nprotagonist just moves aimlessly from one scene and strange\ngroup of characters to the next (Easy Rider, Mean Streets,\nVanishing Point). I've said before that while I was reading\nSword of the Lictor, my wife asked \"What is it about?\" and I\nanswered, \"I have no idea.\" \"So, why are you reading it?\" \"I\nhave to find out how it ends.\"\n\nI told my friend who loaned me the books that Wolfe was a\ntremendous creator of worlds but a so-so writer. And then I\nread \"Fifth Head\" and understood how to read Wolfe; then I\nwas telling people he was the best SF writer period.\n\nJ.\n\nOn 5/24/2011 6:51 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You mean, because, known by the name Tabitha, she was\nraised from the dead by Peter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<903198.95281.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-24T16:08:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<589011E7B80F4C48BC1AB0762B9391CC@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/24/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThank you. Obviusly I make the comment from my own\nperspective, thinking - but don't we all even if modesty\nmakes it hard to say - that I am a reasonably good reader of\nWolfe, or at least a good assessor of different ideas about\nhis books (I am probably not especially creative when it\ncomes to inventing new ideas). And it would be\ndisingenuous of me not to admit that I see most of my\nbattles on this newsgroup as being with people who lean too\nmuch towards embracing impossible theories.\n\nThat is logical, though, as people of the kind who dismiss\nthe unlikely probably won't show up too often on a list like\nthis. You will see reviews of Wolfe from time to time\nthat exclaim \"why do people rave about this guy, stuff\nhappens in his books for no reason and nothing is\nexplained!\"? I think those reviews are from that kind\nof folks, and they will generally then put Wolfe down and\nfind some author more to their liking. So I suppose\nit's inevitable that the average perspective in a list like\nthis will lean towards overly fantastical interpretations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and if they didn't we would have much less to talk about!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDBD8F3.4090006@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T16:12:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<404332.7866.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If one isn't _quite_ familiar with the Bible, then the last 1800 years \nof history and literature will be viewed through a fog. 150 years ago, \nany school girl could discuss obscure tales and recite verses from the \nBible that would be the mark of a bookish seminarian today. We stand on \nthe bones of Bible-thumpers. :-D" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/24/2011 11:03 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nActually, \"bible thumpers\" are people who are OVERLY familiar with the Bible. If the shoe fits ....\n\n;)\n\n--- On Tue, 5/24/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDBE096.5000106@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-24T16:45:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<787341.49609.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\"making clothes for the poor\"\n\nOf course! I just read the wiki but did not make the connection.\n\nDorcas made clothes for the poor; Agia buys rags and used clothing from the poor. I suppose these may be complementary rather than opposite functions, but they also try to cheat or mug the rich. Did Agia and her brother buy their shop from Dorcas' parents? \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me it seems highly improbable. First - Agia and her brother were not\nborn then. Even if you ask, whether\ntheir shop did belong to Dorcas parents in distant past, I think it\nis not probable. Dorcas was living with her husband in the part of\nthe Nessus that became abandoned later. The city moves North, and before \nsome\npart is abandoned, it becomes poorer and poorer. The shop of Agia and \nAgilus is in\na relatively good part, and there is no indication that the parents of \nDorcas or her\nhusband or her son (who is serving in the Inn of the Lost Loves) had any \nproperty\nin this part of Nessus.\n\nBest\n\nSergei Soloviev" } ] }, { "message_id": "<807695.92004.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-24T17:06:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDBD8F3.4090006@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, and so does Wolfe (crunch, crunch, howl!)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/24/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, May 24, 2011, 12:12 PM\nIf one isn't _quite_ familiar with\nthe Bible, then the last 1800 years of history and\nliterature will be viewed through a fog. 150 years ago, any\nschool girl could discuss obscure tales and recite verses\nfrom the Bible that would be the mark of a bookish\nseminarian? today. We stand on the bones of\nBible-thumpers. :-D\n\nOn 5/24/2011 11:03 AM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, \"bible thumpers\" are people who are OVERLY\nfamiliar with the Bible. If the shoe fits ....\n\n;)\n\n--- On Tue, 5/24/11, James Wynn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my\ndenseness?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T17:41:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<807695.92004.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- How do we know Casdoe is a Kazz, then? I thought it was Kass-Dough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, regional and individual dialects differ. But \"Z\" is the voiced analog of the\nunvoiced \"S\" sound. \"D\" is voiced.\n \nIt is a general linguistic rule in AmE (thanks to Antonio for that abbreviation) that \nan \"S\" placed mid-word will be voiced if the next consonent is voiced and unvoiced if the\nnext consonent is unvoiced.\n \n\"T\" is an unvoiced consonent. \"M\" is a voiced consonent. So the word \"plastic\" is pronounced \n\"plas-tik\" while the word \"plasma\"is prounounced \"plaz-ma\".\n\n \nSpeech really is different than spelling in many cases. Jeff, I don't know about you, but when\nI try to say your \"Kass-dough\" out loud my tongue trips and stumbles in the middle. \n \nVoiced \"Kazz-dough\" comes out smooth. So does unvoiced Casto as \"Kass-toe\". But switching from \nunvoiced to voiced in mid-word is awkward for most AmE speakers. Thus the \"S\" - \"Z\" phonemic rule. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<811028.93783.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T18:05:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- How do we know Casdoe is a Kazz, then? I thought it was \nKass-Dough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, regional and individual dialects differ. But \"Z\" is the voiced analog of \nthe\nunvoiced \"S\" sound. \"D\" is voiced.\n\nIt is a general linguistic rule in AmE (thanks to Antonio for that \nabbreviation) that \n\nan \"S\" placed mid-word will be voiced if the next consonent is voiced and \nunvoiced if the\nnext consonent is unvoiced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only pronunciation of \"disdain\" at the on-line Merriam-Webster and American \nHeritage dictionaries is with an /s/, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"T\" is an unvoiced consonent. \"M\" is a voiced consonent. So the word \n\"plastic\" is pronounced \n\n\"plas-tik\" while the word \"plasma\"is prounounced \"plaz-ma\".\n\n\nSpeech really is different than spelling in many cases. Jeff, I don't know \nabout you, but when\nI try to say your \"Kass-dough\" out loud my tongue trips and stumbles in the \nmiddle. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll bet you have no trouble saying \"smoke\" or \"Cass does\" with an /s/.\n\nMy intuition for \"Casdoe\" is a /z/, though, like yours. I doubt it matters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Voiced \"Kazz-dough\" comes out smooth. So does unvoiced Casto as \"Kass-toe\". \nBut switching from \n\nunvoiced to voiced in mid-word is awkward for most AmE speakers. Thus the \"S\" \n- \"Z\" phonemic rule." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman doesn't think it's a rule but mostly agrees." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T20:02:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<811028.93783.qm@web114712.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: I'll bet you have no trouble saying \"smoke\" or \"Cass does\" with an /s/.\nMy intuition for \"Casdoe\" is a /z/, though, like yours. I doubt it matters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no trouble saying \"smoke\" because the \"s\" is not in the middle of the word. I can\nsay \"Cass does\" easily IF I say it as two separate words. If I say it quickly, as one\nword, the difficulty returns.\n \nI'm not saying the difficulty is inherent in human tongue function but rather a function of\nmy AmE trained tongue and the linguistic rules it has learned over a lifetime. It only matters \nas the point of a hypothesis for why non-native speakers of English are more likely to have caught\nthat Cas was Dorcas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDC1C1F.7080805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T20:59:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDBAE40.3010901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n(...) a \"bible thumper\", as Antonio calls people who are familiar\nwith the Bible (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whooooa. I didn't use any such expression. I demand a clarification." } ] }, { "message_id": "<100053.89082.qm@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T20:59:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman: I'll bet you have no trouble saying \"smoke\" or \"Cass does\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "with an /s/." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My intuition for \"Casdoe\" is a /z/, though, like yours. I doubt it matters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no trouble saying \"smoke\" because the \"s\" is not in the middle of the \nword. I can\nsay \"Cass does\" easily IF I say it as two separate words. If I say it quickly, \nas one\nword, the difficulty returns." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about \"disdain\" or \"misdirect\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not saying the difficulty is inherent in human tongue function but rather \na function of\nmy AmE trained tongue and the linguistic rules it has learned over a lifetime. \nIt only matters \n\nas the point of a hypothesis for why non-native speakers of English are more \nlikely to have caught\nthat Cas was Dorcas. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I recall, your point was about the final vowel. We usually don't make \nnicknames out of final syllables whose vowel is a schwa (though I did know an \nEric who was sometimes called Rick). I thought that was a good point. On the \nother hand, I'd say the final \"s\" of both \"Cas\" and \"Dorcas\" the same way (as \n/s/), so at least for me, the \"s\" has nothing to do with why I missed that \nconnection. Neither does the pronunciation of \"Casdoe\".\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<415353.74222.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T21:05:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDC1C1F.7080805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(...) a \"bible thumper\", as Antonio calls people who are familiar\nwith the Bible (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whooooa. I didn't use any such expression. I demand a clarification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somebody else used it. Likewise Lee Berman wrote \"Jerry's problem with random \nexcerpting\" when he meant \"Jeff's\"--though of course I have that problem with GB \nand Amazon too. And Nathan wrote \"A question arising from Jerry's post\" when he \nprobably meant Jason H's post. I suppose I don't notice unless I'm the person \nnamed.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<249BC81B-0012-4427-AC4C-33033D2EC546@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T21:30:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<100053.89082.qm@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 24/05/2011, ?s 21:59, Jerry Friedman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither does the pronunciation of \"Casdoe\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And of course, soon as I saw the name Casdoe, I though it had something to do with Cas and Dorcas. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3729F029-E666-4E83-B6A8-429BB2A0F4B7@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T21:33:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<415353.74222.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 24/05/2011, ?s 22:05, Jerry Friedman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Ant?nio Marques \nJames Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(...) a \"bible thumper\", as Antonio calls people who are familiar\nwith the Bible (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whooooa. I didn't use any such expression. I demand a clarification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Somebody else used it. Likewise Lee Berman wrote \"Jerry's problem with random \nexcerpting\" when he meant \"Jeff's\"--though of course I have that problem with GB \nand Amazon too. And Nathan wrote \"A question arising from Jerry's post\" when he \nprobably meant Jason H's post. I suppose I don't notice unless I'm the person \nnamed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't mind misattributions in general, but I do mind this one. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDC2933.7000509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T21:54:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<3729F029-E666-4E83-B6A8-429BB2A0F4B7@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(...) a \"bible thumper\", as Antonio calls people who are familiar\nwith the Bible (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques:\nWhooooa. I didn't use any such expression. I demand a clarification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Somebody else used it. Likewise Lee Berman wrote \"Jerry's problem with random\nexcerpting\" when he meant \"Jeff's\"--though of course I have that problem with GB\nand Amazon too. And Nathan wrote \"A question arising from Jerry's post\" when he\nprobably meant Jason H's post. I suppose I don't notice unless I'm the person\nnamed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't mind misattributions in general, but I do mind this one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A review by our editing department has determined it was Marc Aramini. I \napologize.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason H", "address": "beet31425 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-24T22:20:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDC2933.7000509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As an Urth List newbie, I sure find forum-through-email confusing. I much\nprefer the modern forum software I've seen and used elsewhere. But, of\ncourse, it would cost time and money to transfer over and maintain, and\nthere is pride in the fact that this forum dates back to the 90's.\n\nIt's almost as if we're using some ancient technology, maybe from a dozen\nages ago, that we cling to reverentially by the light of our dying sun....\n:)\n\n\n-Jason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 2:54 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n (...) a \"bible thumper\", as Antonio calls people who are familiar\nwith the Bible (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques:\n\nWhooooa. I didn't use any such expression. I demand a clarification." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Somebody else used it. Likewise Lee Berman wrote \"Jerry's problem with\nrandom\nexcerpting\" when he meant \"Jeff's\"--though of course I have that problem\nwith GB\nand Amazon too. And Nathan wrote \"A question arising from Jerry's post\"\nwhen he\nprobably meant Jason H's post. I suppose I don't notice unless I'm the\nperson\nnamed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't mind misattributions in general, but I do mind this one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A review by our editing department has determined it was Marc Aramini. I\napologize.\n\nJ.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T00:05:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: We usually don't make nicknames out of final syllables whose \nvowel is a schwa." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat is exactly what my original point was, and why speakers of other languages\nmight see through the Cas/Dorcas disguise better than native speakers. Jeff kinda \nsteered the conversation further, toward the pronunciation of Casdoe, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about \"disdain\" or \"misdirect\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good exceptions to the rule! Though, for me, they aren't smooth flowing words..I \nwouldn't write a song using them. And I suspect they are exceptions because they are \nbuilt upon a prefix which requires the \"s\" sound to retain their meaning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James- A review by our editing department has determined it was Marc Aramini." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt was. But in the interest of peace I don't hold it againt him ;- ).\n \nJerry- \"Likewise Lee Berman wrote, \"Jerry's problem with random excerpting\" when he \nmeant \"Jeff's\"\n \nTrue enough, it WAS Jeff who lodged the complaint. I think it was Sergei (in his other\nguise) who used to complain about too many JW's. Now we realize it is the \"J\" alone\nwhich is the true culprit. And now we have Jason H. to join the J crowd? Hm.....\n \nI guess all I can do is give thanks to Gerry for his spelling....;- ).\n \n \nBtw Jason, there is a sense of participating in history by contributing to this ancient\nList in this archaic manner. I have participated in some other, more modern versions of\nWOlfe sites but they just aren't the same.\n \nThe cumbersome nature of posting here does help ensure that each post is of the highest \nquality and thoughtfulness (ahhahaha....still not recovered from that laughing fit). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<661DA105-8F89-441A-9812-6F7280AD7F8A@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T00:46:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I didn't know better I'd think you were kidding, Jason." } ] }, { "message_id": "<578947.44996.qm@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T03:17:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "<4DDC2933.7000509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But what do we really know about this Marc Aramini fellow, throwing around terms like that? hmmm he's a suspicious one, isn't he? \n\nAnybody read Wolfe's new story Josh in Al Sarrantino's Portents Anthology from, I think, Flying Fox Publisher? Maybe Mark from Arizona in the story and Marc from Arizona have shared a similar fate. [spoilers not included here]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 5/24/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\nA review by our editing department has determined it was\nMarc Aramini. I \napologize.\n\nJ.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7153B9-7E4C-4B08-AC0F-15B3F37D0EB1@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T14:35:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's brilliance or my denseness?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 24/05/2011, ?s 13:48, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: my instictive reading of Dorcas was\nDAWRK-us (gave up on IPA), possibly not that far from the\nAmE pronunciation,but not being acquainted with the name I\nswitfly considered door-KAZZ, seeing as there was a guy\nnearby looking for a KAZZ.\n\nYes, that is to my point. An AmE speaker seeing the name \"Cas\" even if he/she \nknows it to be a nickname, will not be sure whether to pronounce it \"cass\" as\nin \"Cassandra\" or \"Kazz\" as in \"Casdoe\".\n\nBut seeing the name Dorcas, we do not think of \"cass\" or \"kazz\" as\nthe pronunuciation of the second syllable. For us it is \"kis\" or \"kus\". Antonio, \nI am thinking in your language the name Tomas' is pronounced in a way in which\n\"Mas\" could be an extractible nickname. Not so for the English Thomas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. In fact it's toM’S so it could be shortened to M’S, though it isn't. Cf joS? -> Z?, joaQUIM -> QUIM." } ] } ] }