{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6018", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6018, "subject": "Seventeen", "messages": 10, "voices": 8, "first": "2011-05-23T09:43:36+00:00", "last": "2011-06-07T22:21:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<110412.27544.qm@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Gevers", "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T09:43:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A possible reference by Wolfe is to the Dutch East India Company of the 17th and \n18th centuries, which was governed by a board of managers or factors called the \n\"Heere Seventien\" or Group of Seventeen. Given the Company's association with \nthe sea, and origin in a country partly reclaimed from the sea, Wolfe might have \nintended a coded pelagic reference, thus to Abaia, Scylla, and the rest. The \nDEIC didn't have a very savoury reputation. Of course, the only overt reference \nto the Dutch in the entire Briah Cycle is in *On Blue's Waters* and *Return to \nthe Whorl*, with Dorp and its doughty sailors...\n\n--Nick Gevers." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA3B81.3000308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T10:48:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "<110412.27544.qm@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nicholas Gevers wrote (23-05-2011 10:43):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A possible reference by Wolfe is to the Dutch East India Company of the 17th and\n18th centuries, which was governed by a board of managers or factors called the\n\"Heere Seventien\" or Group of Seventeen. Given the Company's association with\nthe sea, and origin in a country partly reclaimed from the sea, Wolfe might have\nintended a coded pelagic reference, thus to Abaia, Scylla, and the rest. The\nDEIC didn't have a very savoury reputation. Of course, the only overt reference\nto the Dutch in the entire Briah Cycle is in *On Blue's Waters* and *Return to\nthe Whorl*, with Dorp and its doughty sailors..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet one in which he explicitly decries the outcome of a society giving \nabsolute power to inflexible Law and its enforcers..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDA4E73.5000404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-23T12:09:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA3B81.3000308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice. Thanks Nicholas!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/23/2011 6:48 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNicholas Gevers wrote (23-05-2011 10:43):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A possible reference by Wolfe is to the Dutch East India Company of \nthe 17th and\n18th centuries, which was governed by a board of managers or factors \ncalled the\n\"Heere Seventien\" or Group of Seventeen. Given the Company's \nassociation with\nthe sea, and origin in a country partly reclaimed from the sea, Wolfe \nmight have\nintended a coded pelagic reference, thus to Abaia, Scylla, and the \nrest. The\nDEIC didn't have a very savoury reputation. Of course, the only overt \nreference\nto the Dutch in the entire Briah Cycle is in *On Blue's Waters* and \n*Return to\nthe Whorl*, with Dorp and its doughty sailors..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet one in which he explicitly decries the outcome of a society giving \nabsolute power to inflexible Law and its enforcers...\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T13:25:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "<4DDA4E73.5000404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like David's theory about 17 being a nice counterpart to 12 in a gnostic parody of\nEarth (which I roundly think Urth is meant to be).\n \nStill, I don't feel the need to leave it at that. For me the the Group of 17 might also refer to the \ncommunist nations at the time of BotNS writing: USSR, China, Cuba, N. Korea, N. Vietnam, Mongolia, \nCambodia, Laos, Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, E. Germany,Albania\nand Yemen. (the # gets bigger if you want to add some short-lived African communist states)\n \nWith regard to the origin of megatherians, I'm coming around to the notion that they are all human in\norigin. Jibes with the \"Man is created in God's image\" religious idea. Aliens are always some form\nof mutated human, be they Abaia or Famulimus.\n \nI think Wolfe tries to show us the progression. It always starts with a bid for immortality. Typhon\nwith his body grafts. Baldanders with his eternal growth. Even Tzadkiel with his escape to the next\nuniverse.\n \nBut by definition, becoming immortal means losing one's humanity. Thus Baldanders' and Typhon's cruelty.\nEven Tzadkiel must resort to genocide. Baldanders is losing his hearing. Typhon loses his whole body. \nPig is blind and the Godling has eyes so small we must guess he will lose his sight with further growth.\n \nWe aren't given a lot of face time with the final products, but I think we get enough with Tzadkiel, \nThe Mother and Great Scylla to conclude that when these former human-types get big enough they can pinch \noff human-sized agents to accomplish what they, in their large bulk, cannot. We never see Abaia but it\nis implied he can do the same thing. The cold pale warriors, the pandours, are a similar product of \nErebus I think.\n \n(James, you implied that there is evidence in BotNS for Erebus being long dead. Could you outline this?) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:45:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the way, there is a fourth seventeen in the story: it is mentioned\nin the old Borski post that was linked to. There are seventeen cells\non each row in the Matachin Tower. I think it would be hard to work\nout an in-story connection between this and the other seventeens,\nthough there may still be a symbolic connection in Wolfe's thought." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nathan C. Tresch", "address": "nathanctresch at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T23:51:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can someone explain to me why the idea that the Ascians have anything to do\nwith communism is so popular? He attributed his inspiration for the Ascians\nto the Turks of the Byzantine period of history, and points out that they\nare north american in origin in this interview:\n\nhttp://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/wolfe46interview.htm\n\nFurther, the idea\nthat it takes a totalitarian society to produce a culture where only certain\nslogans can be used to communicate seems specious. I think it's just as\nlikely that formalism and political correctness taken to an extreme could\nproduce such a culture, or that some kind of mass media which spread\nslogans, (like the internet spreading memes), could also be the impetus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:25 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI like David's theory about 17 being a nice counterpart to 12 in a gnostic\nparody of\nEarth (which I roundly think Urth is meant to be).\n\nStill, I don't feel the need to leave it at that. For me the the Group of\n17 might also refer to the\ncommunist nations at the time of BotNS writing: USSR, China, Cuba, N.\nKorea, N. Vietnam, Mongolia,\nCambodia, Laos, Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland,\nHungary, E. Germany,Albania\nand Yemen. (the # gets bigger if you want to add some short-lived African\ncommunist states)\n\nWith regard to the origin of megatherians, I'm coming around to the notion\nthat they are all human in\norigin. Jibes with the \"Man is created in God's image\" religious idea.\nAliens are always some form\nof mutated human, be they Abaia or Famulimus.\n\nI think Wolfe tries to show us the progression. It always starts with a bid\nfor immortality. Typhon\nwith his body grafts. Baldanders with his eternal growth. Even Tzadkiel\nwith his escape to the next\nuniverse.\n\nBut by definition, becoming immortal means losing one's humanity. Thus\nBaldanders' and Typhon's cruelty.\nEven Tzadkiel must resort to genocide. Baldanders is losing his hearing.\nTyphon loses his whole body.\nPig is blind and the Godling has eyes so small we must guess he will lose\nhis sight with further growth.\n\nWe aren't given a lot of face time with the final products, but I think we\nget enough with Tzadkiel,\nThe Mother and Great Scylla to conclude that when these former human-types\nget big enough they can pinch\noff human-sized agents to accomplish what they, in their large bulk,\ncannot. We never see Abaia but it\nis implied he can do the same thing. The cold pale warriors, the pandours,\nare a similar product of\nErebus I think.\n\n(James, you implied that there is evidence in BotNS for Erebus being long\ndead. Could you outline this?)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDEEA9A.4010000@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-27T00:04:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Wolfe was in Korea, so regardless of the actual political system \nthat created them (and their battle formations don't seem very \nCommunist), one may imagine being impressed for a lifetime by the \nimplacableness of the Chinese army when they crossed the Yalu in winter, \nand that this might influence anyone greatly.\n\nBut since the Internet was not around in the 1970s, we are left with (a) \nCommunist slogans (b) ad slogans as a source of total social \nbrainwashing. From the soldier's tale, Ascia certainly sounds more like \nChina than Madison Avenue, to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/26/2011 7:51 PM, Nathan C. Tresch wrote:\nCan someone explain to me why the idea that the Ascians have anything \nto do with communism is so popular? He attributed his inspiration for \nthe Ascians to the Turks of the Byzantine period of history, and \npoints out that they are north american in origin in this interview:\n\nhttp://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/wolfe46interview.htm\n\nFurther, the idea that it takes a totalitarian society to produce a \nculture where only certain slogans can be used to communicate seems \nspecious. I think it's just as likely that formalism and political \ncorrectness taken to an extreme could produce such a culture, or that \nsome kind of mass media which spread slogans, (like the internet \nspreading memes), could also be the impetus.\n\nOn Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:25 AM, Lee Berman > wrote:\n\n\n I like David's theory about 17 being a nice counterpart to 12 in a\n gnostic parody of\n Earth (which I roundly think Urth is meant to be).\n\n Still, I don't feel the need to leave it at that. For me the the\n Group of 17 might also refer to the\n communist nations at the time of BotNS writing: USSR, China, Cuba,\n N. Korea, N. Vietnam, Mongolia,\n Cambodia, Laos, Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia,\n Poland, Hungary, E. Germany,Albania\n and Yemen. (the # gets bigger if you want to add some short-lived\n African communist states)\n\n With regard to the origin of megatherians, I'm coming around to\n the notion that they are all human in\n origin. Jibes with the \"Man is created in God's image\" religious\n idea. Aliens are always some form\n of mutated human, be they Abaia or Famulimus.\n\n I think Wolfe tries to show us the progression. It always starts\n with a bid for immortality. Typhon\n with his body grafts. Baldanders with his eternal growth. Even\n Tzadkiel with his escape to the next\n universe.\n\n But by definition, becoming immortal means losing one's humanity.\n Thus Baldanders' and Typhon's cruelty.\n Even Tzadkiel must resort to genocide. Baldanders is losing his\n hearing. Typhon loses his whole body.\n Pig is blind and the Godling has eyes so small we must guess he\n will lose his sight with further growth.\n\n We aren't given a lot of face time with the final products, but I\n think we get enough with Tzadkiel,\n The Mother and Great Scylla to conclude that when these former\n human-types get big enough they can pinch\n off human-sized agents to accomplish what they, in their large\n bulk, cannot. We never see Abaia but it\n is implied he can do the same thing. The cold pale warriors, the\n pandours, are a similar product of\n Erebus I think.\n\n (James, you implied that there is evidence in BotNS for Erebus\n being long dead. Could you outline this?)\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-27T00:39:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Nathan C. Tresch\n wrote:\nHe attributed his inspiration for the Ascians to the Turks of the Byzantine\nperiod of history, and points out that they are north american in origin in\nthis interview:\nhttp://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/wolfe46interview.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not quite. He said they were 'my equivalents of the Turk' to the\n'stagnant political entity' of the Commonwealth. That is,\nByzantium:Turks :: Commonwealth:Ascians. This is *not* the same thing\nas 'the society of the the Ascians is a version of the Ottoman\ncaliphate'.\n\nPersonally, the very first time I read TBotNS, it was obvious to me\nthat the Group of Seventeen's society was heavily modeled on communist\nChina. The parallels are just too many.\n\nThe style of the story is focused on an agriculture society on what\nmay be a collectivized farm (China's usual mindset, and especially\nthat of Mao who swam in the sea of peasants), the Group of Seventeen\nis appealed to like the peasants appealed to distant mandarins and\nParty officials for justice*, the Group of Seventeen is even named\nlike various Chinese entities - Gang of Four, anyone? -The use of\nnumbers is again characteristically Chinese, if you don't believe me,\nlook at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chinese_numbered_policies\nor look at how many Chinese entries there are in\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Numeric_epithets (This\nimpression is particularly reinforced if you read any substantial\namount of ancient Chinese literature/philosophy/history.) The quoting\nis a clever mockery of communist quoting and especially quoting from\nthe Little Red Book (an approved text if ever there was one). The\nsentiments are in line with communist theory.\n\nHell, \"correct thought\" is literally a China term! Look through Google\nBooks if you don't believe me, eg.\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=ku5fABfvOGgC&pg=PA45&dq=%22correct+thought%22#v=onepage&q=%22correct%20thought%22&f=false\n\nSo there are many many points in the story that reek of Chinese\ncommunism. And *not* of Islam or the Turks.\n\n* Not just my observation; see\nhttp://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/07/loyal-to-the-group-of-seventeen/" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-27T12:11:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: But since the Internet was not around in the 1970s, we are left with (a) \nCommunist slogans (b) ad slogans as a source of total social \nbrainwashing. From the soldier's tale, Ascia certainly sounds more like \nChina than Madison Avenue, to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nYes, I would agree. Not only was the Cold War on in full force in the 70's, Gene Wolfe can\nbe fairly labelled as having a history of a Cold Warrior. Not to suggest he was a blinder-on\nAmerican patriot but at the time, communism was considered both a real threat and America's \nmain enemy. In a Wolfe interview, I think he said that he set Ascia in N. America in part \nbecause he wanted to show, \"it could happen here\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nathan C. Tresch: I think it's just as likely that formalism and political \ncorrectness taken to an extreme could produce such a culture, or that \nsome kind of mass media which spread slogans, (like the internet \nspreading memes), could also be the impetus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNot disagreeing, necessarily, but that does sound like a very 21st century sentiment. The masses\nwere not so considered as \"sheeple\" in the 70's. If they chose to adopt a popular slogan, that was \nfree will, the opposite of communism. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-06-07T22:21:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 26, 2011, at 5:39 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Thu, May 26, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Nathan C. Tresch\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He attributed his inspiration for the Ascians to the Turks of the Byzantine\nperiod of history, and points out that they are north american in origin in\nthis interview:\nhttp://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/wolfe46interview.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not quite. He said they were 'my equivalents of the Turk' to the\n'stagnant political entity' of the Commonwealth. That is,\nByzantium:Turks :: Commonwealth:Ascians. This is *not* the same thing\nas 'the society of the the Ascians is a version of the Ottoman\ncaliphate'.\n\nPersonally, the very first time I read TBotNS, it was obvious to me\nthat the Group of Seventeen's society was heavily modeled on communist\nChina. The parallels are just too many.\n\nThe style of the story is focused on an agriculture society on what\nmay be a collectivized farm (China's usual mindset, and especially\nthat of Mao who swam in the sea of peasants), the Group of Seventeen\nis appealed to like the peasants appealed to distant mandarins and\nParty officials for justice*, the Group of Seventeen is even named\nlike various Chinese entities - Gang of Four, anyone? -The use of\nnumbers is again characteristically Chinese, if you don't believe me,\nlook at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chinese_numbered_policies\nor look at how many Chinese entries there are in\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Numeric_epithets (This\nimpression is particularly reinforced if you read any substantial\namount of ancient Chinese literature/philosophy/history.) The quoting\nis a clever mockery of communist quoting and especially quoting from\nthe Little Red Book (an approved text if ever there was one). The\nsentiments are in line with communist theory.\n\nHell, \"correct thought\" is literally a China term! Look through Google\nBooks if you don't believe me, eg.\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=ku5fABfvOGgC&pg=PA45&dq=%22correct+thought%22#v=onepage&q=%22correct%20thought%22&f=false\n\nSo there are many many points in the story that reek of Chinese\ncommunism. And *not* of Islam or the Turks.\n\n* Not just my observation; see\nhttp://crookedtimber.org/2009/03/07/loyal-to-the-group-of-seventeen/\n\n-- \ngwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great stuff Gwern.\nMy feelings about all this were subtext read from the gut, but this really validates the idea that they are a communist metaphor, influenced by Chinese communism, though not necessarily Asian at all." } ] } ] }