{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6019", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6019, "subject": "An Evil Guest", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-05-23T17:08:21+00:00", "last": "2011-05-23T18:50:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:08:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just joined the list, so I don't know if this topic has been talked about\nin a ton of depth already. I really enjoyed An Evil Guest! It was the\nfirst non-Solar Cycle books by Gene Wolfe that I had read, and I \"tricked\"\nmyself into not thinking it could be as clever and dense as those. I have\nbeen looking over it more and reading about different theories online, and\nwas wondering what you all thought of the idea that Margaret is Cassie from\nthe future (after the harpy-creatures leave her on the island to become\nbedraggled and unrecognizable). The way I understand it, future-Cassie goes\nback in time by traveling in a hopper at immense speeds, and intends somehow\nto manipulate the events experienced by present-Cassie in order to save\nReis." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nI just joined the list, so I don't know if this topic has been talked about\nin a ton of depth already. I really enjoyed An Evil Guest!? It was the\nfirst non-Solar Cycle books by Gene Wolfe that I had read, and I \"tricked\"\nmyself into not thinking it could be as clever and dense as those. I have\nbeen looking over it more and reading about different theories online, and\nwas wondering what you all thought of the idea that Margaret is Cassie from\nthe future (after the harpy-creatures leave her on the island to become\nbedraggled and unrecognizable). The way I understand it, future-Cassie goes\nback in time by traveling in a hopper at immense speeds, and intends somehow\nto manipulate the events experienced by present-Cassie in order to save\nReis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonin,\n\nWelcome to the list.\n\nYes, this topic _has_ been talked about, and you might find some\ninteresting debate on it in the archives. But the fact that someone\nelse came up with it independently seems to offer some weight to the\nidea." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T17:28:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I just found a ton of stuff on Wolfe Wiki, that originated on this\nlist! Sorry to bring up an old topic. I think I am going to re-read An\nEvil Guest ... hopefully I will pick up on more clues as to the identity of\nMargaret." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAntonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just joined the list, so I don't know if this topic has been talked\nabout\nin a ton of depth already. I really enjoyed An Evil Guest! It was the\nfirst non-Solar Cycle books by Gene Wolfe that I had read, and I\n\"tricked\"\nmyself into not thinking it could be as clever and dense as those. I\nhave\nbeen looking over it more and reading about different theories online,\nand\nwas wondering what you all thought of the idea that Margaret is Cassie\nfrom\nthe future (after the harpy-creatures leave her on the island to become\nbedraggled and unrecognizable). The way I understand it, future-Cassie\ngoes\nback in time by traveling in a hopper at immense speeds, and intends\nsomehow\nto manipulate the events experienced by present-Cassie in order to save\nReis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonin,\n\nWelcome to the list.\n\nYes, this topic _has_ been talked about, and you might find some\ninteresting debate on it in the archives. But the fact that someone\nelse came up with it independently seems to offer some weight to the\nidea.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:20:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So glad to hear you liked it, Antonin! I just finished it and found it VERY\ninteresting and exciting on certain levels (though baffling and frustrating\ntoo - which is only to be expected, surely!). I feel like most of the\nreviews and comments I've run into so far seem more dubious and negative\nthan not. I was utterly surprised to find that it more or less ACTUALLY\nlived up to all the blurbs trying to succinctly describe it on the book\ncover.\n\nI actually think it may end up being a helpful key or guide in certain ways\nto reading the Solar Cycle - I feel like Wolfe more overtly showcased some\nof his unique forms and methods of narrative in this book, and some of his\nSolar Cycle themes also.\n\nYour theory about Margaret kind of blows my mind, but I'll have to see how\npeople are arriving at that hypothesis. It would at least partly make sense\nof why I found Margaret such an interesting minor character. (I felt there\nwas some fairly self-conscious reference to her being - or at least being\nlike - a little 'gray' elf or sprite or fairy or some such creature.) Is\nthere any direct reference to time travel in the novel?\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDAA7B8.5060102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:30:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Additionally, check out the story \"The Tree is My Hat\". It takes place \non Cassie's island. (that's what Wolfe called it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/23/2011 12:28 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nActually I just found a ton of stuff on Wolfe Wiki, that originated on \nthis list! Sorry to bring up an old topic. I think I am going to \nre-read An Evil Guest ... hopefully I will pick up on more clues as to \nthe identity of Margaret. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:38:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, there are references to time travel, though they are kind of subtle.\nSpecifically, it is mentioned several times that when sending interplanetary\nelectronic mail at fast enough speeds, a response to a letter can arrive\nbefore the original letter had been sent. Thus, the reply to a latter went\nback in time to a point before the first letter was actually sent. This\ncauses problems, so there are restrictions on that sort of thing in the\nuniverse.\n\nAlso, the Margaret as future-Cassie theory is not mine, I found out about it\nhere:\n\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=AnEvilGuest.MysteriousMargaret\n\nI believe there is also a reference to a \"robin fighting its own reflection\"\nor something to that effect, which reminds me of the double Hildegrins in\nThe Book of the New Sun. Time travel resulting in multiple versions of a\ncharacter bouncing around different timelines are definitely nothing new for\nWolfe!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nSo glad to hear you liked it, Antonin! I just finished it and found it\nVERY interesting and exciting on certain levels (though baffling and\nfrustrating too - which is only to be expected, surely!). I feel like most\nof the reviews and comments I've run into so far seem more dubious and\nnegative than not. I was utterly surprised to find that it more or less\nACTUALLY lived up to all the blurbs trying to succinctly describe it on the\nbook cover.\n\nI actually think it may end up being a helpful key or guide in certain ways\nto reading the Solar Cycle - I feel like Wolfe more overtly showcased some\nof his unique forms and methods of narrative in this book, and some of his\nSolar Cycle themes also.\n\nYour theory about Margaret kind of blows my mind, but I'll have to see how\npeople are arriving at that hypothesis. It would at least partly make sense\nof why I found Margaret such an interesting minor character. (I felt there\nwas some fairly self-conscious reference to her being - or at least being\nlike - a little 'gray' elf or sprite or fairy or some such creature.) Is\nthere any direct reference to time travel in the novel?\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:39:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry about the typos ... I am definitely typing too fast!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nYes, there are references to time travel, though they are kind of subtle.\nSpecifically, it is mentioned several times that when sending interplanetary\nelectronic mail at fast enough speeds, a response to a letter can arrive\nbefore the original letter had been sent. Thus, the reply to a latter went\nback in time to a point before the first letter was actually sent. This\ncauses problems, so there are restrictions on that sort of thing in the\nuniverse.\n\nAlso, the Margaret as future-Cassie theory is not mine, I found out about\nit here:\n\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=AnEvilGuest.MysteriousMargaret\n\nI believe there is also a reference to a \"robin fighting its own\nreflection\" or something to that effect, which reminds me of the double\nHildegrins in The Book of the New Sun. Time travel resulting in multiple\nversions of a character bouncing around different timelines are definitely\nnothing new for Wolfe!\n\nOn Mon, May 23, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So glad to hear you liked it, Antonin! I just finished it and found it\nVERY interesting and exciting on certain levels (though baffling and\nfrustrating too - which is only to be expected, surely!). I feel like most\nof the reviews and comments I've run into so far seem more dubious and\nnegative than not. I was utterly surprised to find that it more or less\nACTUALLY lived up to all the blurbs trying to succinctly describe it on the\nbook cover.\n\nI actually think it may end up being a helpful key or guide in certain\nways to reading the Solar Cycle - I feel like Wolfe more overtly showcased\nsome of his unique forms and methods of narrative in this book, and some of\nhis Solar Cycle themes also.\n\nYour theory about Margaret kind of blows my mind, but I'll have to see how\npeople are arriving at that hypothesis. It would at least partly make sense\nof why I found Margaret such an interesting minor character. (I felt there\nwas some fairly self-conscious reference to her being - or at least being\nlike - a little 'gray' elf or sprite or fairy or some such creature.) Is\nthere any direct reference to time travel in the novel?\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:43:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest", "in_reply_to": "<4DDAA7B8.5060102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 7:30 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nAdditionally, check out the story \"The Tree is My Hat\". It takes place on\nCassie's island. (that's what Wolfe called it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh yeah! I'd heard he said that before I read AEG and forgot! Amazing!\n That makes even more sense of the strong impression I was getting that the\nSouth Sea island portion of this novel felt so much like 'The Tree Is My\nHat' (and also reminded me of the shark-dwarves in his story 'Black Shoes').\n Cool, thanks.\n\nWolfe is so good at consistently re-visiting a setting in a totally\ndifferent context. He does this in his story 'The Night Chough' - the\nlittle tale itself feels like it has little or nothing to do with the story\nof TBotNS, but the SETTING feels exactly as if you're on the Blue of New\nSun. Once Wolfe builds a place, it really stays put! It seems he can go\nback any time he wants. I am seriously, seriously in awe of that.\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-23T18:50:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) An Evil Guest", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Antonin Scriabin \n wrote:\nYes, there are references to time travel, though they are kind of subtle.\nSpecifically, it is mentioned several times that when sending interplanetary\nelectronic mail at fast enough speeds, a response to a letter can arrive\nbefore the original letter had been sent. Thus, the reply to a latter went\nback in time to a point before the first letter was actually sent. This\ncauses problems, so there are restrictions on that sort of thing in the\nuniverse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I love that part. I guess I hadn't thought of it as time travel per se -\nseemed like more of a spatial bending sort of thing going on there that only\n*looked* like time disruption/rearrangement/delay/whatever - but ok, I think\nI can see that.\n\nSo maybe this will affect or relate to the theory that perhaps even Gideon\nChase and Bill Reis are two manifestations of the same person (thought,\nunlike Margaret and Cassie - Gid and Bill are never in the same place at the\nsame time). Almost definitely *some* form of literary 'doubling' going on\nin this novel, surely!\n\nA lovely, playful novel, even with its (potential) problems!\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, the Margaret as future-Cassie theory is not mine, I found out about\nit here:\n\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=AnEvilGuest.MysteriousMargaret\n\nI believe there is also a reference to a \"robin fighting its own\nreflection\" or something to that effect, which reminds me of the double\nHildegrins in The Book of the New Sun. Time travel resulting in multiple\nversions of a character bouncing around different timelines are definitely\nnothing new for Wolfe!\n\nOn Mon, May 23, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Daniel Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So glad to hear you liked it, Antonin! I just finished it and found it\nVERY interesting and exciting on certain levels (though baffling and\nfrustrating too - which is only to be expected, surely!). I feel like most\nof the reviews and comments I've run into so far seem more dubious and\nnegative than not. I was utterly surprised to find that it more or less\nACTUALLY lived up to all the blurbs trying to succinctly describe it on the\nbook cover.\n\nI actually think it may end up being a helpful key or guide in certain\nways to reading the Solar Cycle - I feel like Wolfe more overtly showcased\nsome of his unique forms and methods of narrative in this book, and some of\nhis Solar Cycle themes also.\n\nYour theory about Margaret kind of blows my mind, but I'll have to see how\npeople are arriving at that hypothesis. It would at least partly make sense\nof why I found Margaret such an interesting minor character. (I felt there\nwas some fairly self-conscious reference to her being - or at least being\nlike - a little 'gray' elf or sprite or fairy or some such creature.) Is\nthere any direct reference to time travel in the novel?\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }