{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6024", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6024, "subject": "Ymar", "messages": 25, "voices": 10, "first": "2011-05-25T20:54:14+00:00", "last": "2011-05-28T09:17:18+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T20:54:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n ?In BotNS, (unless you include Frog!) there is no" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "indication that Ymar was the first Autarch, or was contemporaneous with\nTyphon. ?Nor does his contemporeity with Typhon seem to inform us of\nanything; indeed I personally think it hurts the story in some ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More than that:it seems actually inconsistent with some things in the\ntext. In connection with the antechamber, we are told that _before\nYmar_ the autarch himself used to judge crimes committed in the\ngrounds of the House Absolute. Malrubius says that Ymar was the _last_\nAutarch, before Severian's predecessor, to take the test. (Technically\n'last' can include 'only', but it would be very deceptive. Possibly\nMalrubius is deceptive, but I see no reason for him to deceive about\nthat.)\n\nAlso, Typhon seems to be dated several chiliads earlier, by\nSeverian's remark about the Conciliator, that he disappeared several\nchiliads ago, and by Cyriaca's story - I think she says that the book,\nwhich mentions Typhon, is itself several chiliads old. Also by the\ntime it would take to shape all the mountains into figures of\nAutarchs. Ymar, I think, isn't dated in the text,but in an interview\ngiven at the time Wolfe put him just a chiliad before Severian - where\nin the now canonical dating Typhon seems to be as well, causing much\nconfusion.\n\nBesides that, there's the fact that Ymar is a known historical figure,\nwhereas Typhon is forgotten.\n\n?I" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "suspect that Wolfe, after he had started on UotNS, decided it would be\n'lame' for Severian not to meet Ymar, and wrote it in then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it may be a bit more than that. Very likely, Wolfe already\nknew that Ymar had been a torturer, which is why he reformed the guild\n- thus prefiguring Severian's own life. Palaemon says two torturers\nhad previously left the guild to take up appointments elsewhere; he\nhimself turns out to be one; who is the other? Very possibly Ymar. But\nthis is one of the things that is not made clear enough in BOTNS, and\ntherefore Wolfe brings Ymar into _Urth_ to clarify the matter." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD71C5.2010608@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-25T21:16:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chronology of Urth seems to me extremely interesting. To add to our \ndiscussion some\nmore elements/questions:\n\nSilk/Horn \"spirits\" travel to Urth when Severian is an apprentice. \nApparently the interval\nbetween their visits on Urth is the same as on Blue, so they came the same\nyear. First time, when they are with\nRigoglio, they discuss how much time passed between the departure of \nWhorl and\ntheir visit. Rigoglio was put on the Whorl by Typhon, and the date may \nbe very precise -\nit is the last year of Typhon rule. There is a traveler who says how \nmuch dead part\nof the city moves during one generation (about one block US sense). \nThere is several\nleagues between the street where the house of Rigoglio stood and the \nfringe of Nessus.\nFor the Whorl only 300 years passed, but we understand that it was \nrelativistic\n\"shrinking of time\". So it is maybe several hundreds of generations, but \nnot much more\nif the speed of the city fringe remained constant.\n\nBest\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:\n\n In BotNS, (unless you include Frog!) there is no\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "indication that Ymar was the first Autarch, or was contemporaneous with\nTyphon. Nor does his contemporeity with Typhon seem to inform us of\nanything; indeed I personally think it hurts the story in some ways.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More than that:it seems actually inconsistent with some things in the\ntext. In connection with the antechamber, we are told that _before\nYmar_ the autarch himself used to judge crimes committed in the\ngrounds of the House Absolute. Malrubius says that Ymar was the _last_\nAutarch, before Severian's predecessor, to take the test. (Technically\n'last' can include 'only', but it would be very deceptive. Possibly\nMalrubius is deceptive, but I see no reason for him to deceive about\nthat.)\n\nAlso, Typhon seems to be dated several chiliads earlier, by\nSeverian's remark about the Conciliator, that he disappeared several\nchiliads ago, and by Cyriaca's story - I think she says that the book,\nwhich mentions Typhon, is itself several chiliads old. Also by the\ntime it would take to shape all the mountains into figures of\nAutarchs. Ymar, I think, isn't dated in the text,but in an interview\ngiven at the time Wolfe put him just a chiliad before Severian - where\nin the now canonical dating Typhon seems to be as well, causing much\nconfusion.\n\nBesides that, there's the fact that Ymar is a known historical figure,\nwhereas Typhon is forgotten.\n\n I\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "suspect that Wolfe, after he had started on UotNS, decided it would be\n'lame' for Severian not to meet Ymar, and wrote it in then.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it may be a bit more than that. Very likely, Wolfe already\nknew that Ymar had been a torturer, which is why he reformed the guild\n- thus prefiguring Severian's own life. Palaemon says two torturers\nhad previously left the guild to take up appointments elsewhere; he\nhimself turns out to be one; who is the other? Very possibly Ymar. But\nthis is one of the things that is not made clear enough in BOTNS, and\ntherefore Wolfe brings Ymar into _Urth_ to clarify the matter.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8AE97E010C3948A783BB7BEFA0C58C84@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-25T21:39:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:\n In BotNS, (unless you include Frog!) there is no\nindication that Ymar was the first Autarch, or was contemporaneous with\nTyphon. Nor does his contemporeity with Typhon seem to inform us of\nanything; indeed I personally think it hurts the story in some ways." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More than that:it seems actually inconsistent with some things in the\ntext. In connection with the antechamber, we are told that _before\nYmar_ the autarch himself used to judge crimes committed in the\ngrounds of the House Absolute. Malrubius says that Ymar was the _last_\nAutarch, before Severian's predecessor, to take the test. (Technically\n'last' can include 'only', but it would be very deceptive. Possibly\nMalrubius is deceptive, but I see no reason for him to deceive about\nthat.)\n\n Also, Typhon seems to be dated several chiliads earlier, by\nSeverian's remark about the Conciliator, that he disappeared several\nchiliads ago, and by Cyriaca's story - I think she says that the book,\nwhich mentions Typhon, is itself several chiliads old. Also by the\ntime it would take to shape all the mountains into figures of\nAutarchs. Ymar, I think, isn't dated in the text,but in an interview\ngiven at the time Wolfe put him just a chiliad before Severian - where\nin the now canonical dating Typhon seems to be as well, causing much\nconfusion.\n\nBesides that, there's the fact that Ymar is a known historical figure,\nwhereas Typhon is forgotten." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very good points. I knew there was something wrong with Ymar being a \ncontemporary of Typhon, but I couldn't put my finger on what exactly.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD83DE.6000702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T22:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Except that his name, \"Spring Wind\", makes no sense as a designation for\nMars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason:\nIt makes perfect sense to me. 'March winds' is a well-established\nphrase, enshrined in a nursery rhyme." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You make a convincing argument that 'Spring Wind' makes a fine \ndesignation for 'March'. But not for Mars. Let me again stipulate the \npattern set for the other characters from the ancestry of Romulus:\n\n* Early Summer = June = Juno [ding!] (Although this betrays a naivety in \nthinking Juno was originally a season, each name is a reasonable \ntranslation of either of the others.)\n\n* Bird of the Woods = Rhea Silvia (same thing) [ding!]\n\n* Spring Wind = March Winds = March = Mars [buzzer sound]\n\nThe West wind 'Zephyr' blows in the Spring but he is not equivalent to \nMars. That's not even a flat note. It's like a duck quacking in the \nmiddle of the Moonlight Sonata." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason:\nMalrubius says that Ymar was the _last_\nAutarch, before Severian's predecessor, to take the test. (Technically\n'last' can include 'only', but it would be very deceptive. Possibly\nMalrubius is deceptive, but I see no reason for him to deceive about\nthat.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's deceptive about that? 'Last' can mean 'at the end of a chain' but \nit also means merely 'just previously'. For instance, if there were fire \nin our workplace and I said 'The last time there was a fire in this \noffice...\" it is unlikely you would PRESUME that I meant the last of a \n_series_ of fires. Even when I first read this, I don't recall drawing \nthe implication that you do here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, Typhon seems to be dated several chiliads earlier, by\nSeverian's remark about the Conciliator, that he disappeared several\nchiliads ago, and by Cyriaca's story - I think she says that the book,\nwhich mentions Typhon, is itself several chiliads old. Also by the\ntime it would take to shape all the mountains into figures of\nAutarchs. Ymar, I think, isn't dated in the text,but in an interview\ngiven at the time Wolfe put him just a chiliad before Severian - where\nin the now canonical dating Typhon seems to be as well, causing much\nconfusion. Besides that, there's the fact that Ymar is a known historical figure,\nwhereas Typhon is forgotten." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder whether anyone but Mantis has seen that interview, but I'll \naccept his reading. Considering the consternation caused the \ndiscrepancies between Wolfe's statement (treated as canonical by Lexicon \nUrthus) and the text of SotL/UotNS, it would have been interesting if \nsomeone had asked him how long ago Typhon lived. But what's done is done.\n\nAt least we agree there is no conflict in the TEXT. Severian doesn't \nknow how long ago the Conciliator lived (that's evident from his answer \nto Typhon), but there is no reason to believe he knows how long ago Ymar \nlived either. Everything before Ymar seems to be a mystery to Severian \nwho is barely a man. He doesn't display a lot of knowledge about any \nautarchs AFTER Ymar either. What struck me as most unlikely was that \nTyphon would be forgotten at all considering he was the ruler over the \nCommonwealth (and the rest of the planet) at the time of the \nConciliator. And again this might speak of Severian's lack of religious \ninstruction (the equivalent of not knowing who Herod Antipas was). Based \n_positive_ evidence (that is, evidence we have rather than evidence we \nthink we should have), it seems that after the Commonwealth was formed \nand the alien powers divided up the rest of the world, nobody received \nmuch instruction in what came before.\n\nThat there are lots of mountain carved? It took six years to carve Mount \nRushmore using 1930s technology.\n\nHonestly, having Severian encounter Ymar in Typhon's time never caused \nme to blink an eye, but then I wasn't aware of the interview at the time \neither. Still, reading the story of Frog with my more recent \ninterpretation, I probably would have expected Ymar to appear well-after \nTyphon's time since he and Fish floated down a 'stream'. On the other \nhand...hmmmm.\n\nChecking my copy of LU v2, I see that Mantis also considers Frog to be \nan historical figure although we disagree about when he lived.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDD84D9.4080101@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-25T22:38:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD71C5.2010608@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The chronology based on the Rajan's spirit-travel is pretty dicey. The \nRajan is a Time traveler, and if you consider pay attention to when Horn \nleft home, and how long ago Hoof and Hide left, it is clear that the \nRajan has been jumping around alot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/25/2011 4:16 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nChronology of Urth seems to me extremely interesting. To add to our \ndiscussion some\nmore elements/questions:\n\nSilk/Horn \"spirits\" travel to Urth when Severian is an apprentice. \nApparently the interval\nbetween their visits on Urth is the same as on Blue, so they came the \nsame\nyear. First time, when they are with\nRigoglio, they discuss how much time passed between the departure of \nWhorl and\ntheir visit. Rigoglio was put on the Whorl by Typhon, and the date may \nbe very precise -\nit is the last year of Typhon rule. There is a traveler who says how \nmuch dead part\nof the city moves during one generation (about one block US sense). \nThere is several\nleagues between the street where the house of Rigoglio stood and the \nfringe of Nessus.\nFor the Whorl only 300 years passed, but we understand that it was \nrelativistic\n\"shrinking of time\". So it is maybe several hundreds of generations, \nbut not much more\nif the speed of the city fringe remained constant." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T11:16:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD71C5.2010608@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find the chronology overall very confusing but I'm certain it is just as GW intended it, because he didn't have any gun to his head not to make it correct. \n\n- Ymar both sounds and doesn't sound like the first autarch - though just as Typhon refers to himself as autarch, commonwealthers may have applied the term to any earlier ruler. \n\n- Typhon shouldn't have been forgotten, even if his rise and fall were meteoric - cf Alexander -, could memory of him have been deliberately suppressed? And yet they'd leave him around in his mountain?\n \n- How come Cilinia's remains are still in order after so much time, be it a thousand years or 2k?\n\n- How come Scylla sounds so childish in comparison to Tartaros if she was older and they were scanned at the same time?\n\nThese and many more could all be GW's inconsistencies, but why would he be inconsistent when it would cost him nothing not to be?\n\nNo, I don't think he would introduce brutal incoherence into latter works just because it would be cool to have this or that episode happen. And I don't find the 'it's all different universes' theory satisfying. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T13:08:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: I find the chronology overall very confusing but I'm certain \nit is just as GW intended it, because he didn't have any gun to his head not to make \nit correct....No, I don't think he would introduce brutal incoherence into latter works \njust because it would be cool to have this or that episode happen. And I don't find the \n'it's all different universes' theory satisfying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI certainly don't like a \"multi-verse\" explanation for inconsistencies either. But given\nthe Ymar-Typhon inconsistencies and some other stuff, I'm guessing Wolfe was willing to put\nan inconsistency or two into the story if the narrative gain was deemed sufficient. Who\nreally understands the twists and turns of time travel anyway?\n \nI admit that mapping timelines is of far less interest to me than to many other Wolfe fans.\nTo borrow a Gerry line, I'd rather just read the story Gene Wolfe wrote. But I am glad\nsome people take the trouble to do it. It can be helpful. But I am willing to accept that\nsome story elements won't jibe perfectly with others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How come Scylla sounds so childish in comparison to Tartaros if she was older and they were \nscanned at the same time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAs the girl with snake-arms on the ship in RttW? Or when Scylla possesses Chenille in LotLS? I think \nin Chenille she sounds like a haughty young woman, roughly of Chenille's age. She certainly \ndoesn't sound as young as Cilinia to me. Tartaros does sound older, wiser and world-weary. Maybe, \neven in scanned form, he has experienced more pain and sorrow than Scylla. Perhaps one can mature \nas a computer program?\n\nI think somewhere it is mentioned that Scylla had her own planet to rule before being put\ninto Mainframe. Then we have the monstrous view of Great Scylla at the end of RttW. Typhon's\nfamily is clearly not (like Mr. Million) destroyed by the process of scanning. Cilinia may\nhave died as a child but parts of her seem to have lived on to pursue different futures on\nthe Whorl and on Urth. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-26T15:12:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nAntonio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find the chronology overall very confusing but I'm certain\nit is just as GW intended it, because he didn't have any gun to his head \nnot to make\nit correct....No, I don't think he would introduce brutal incoherence into \nlatter works\njust because it would be cool to have this or that episode happen. And I \ndon't find the\n'it's all different universes' theory satisfying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The incoherence of introducing Ymar is not all that brutal if one does not \ntry to closely analyse the story as a realistic history. Perhaps Wolfe \nunderestimated how hard readers would pluck at the threads. The Ymar \nepisode is a cool story, and it may be that Wolfe thought its coolness would \noutweigh the questions raised by the quick succession of Ymar. Or perhaps \nhe felt that the rapid succession of Ymar was plausible. After all, it \nmight not have been all that rapid. Perhaps Ymar only attained the Autarchy \nin his fifties, after decades of chaos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I admit that mapping timelines is of far less interest to me than to many \nother Wolfe fans.\nTo borrow a Gerry line, I'd rather just read the story Gene Wolfe wrote. \nBut I am glad\nsome people take the trouble to do it. It can be helpful. But I am willing \nto accept that\nsome story elements won't jibe perfectly with others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By that line I did not mean to mock your intelligence. But ideas like \n\"Ceryx is Inire\" do read to me like notions that are transplanted from some \ncompletely other book. Ceryx is a clearly human necromancer who appears \nbriefly to challenge Severian the Conciliator in UotNS. At the end of the \nchapter he appears in, he is killed by a mob. Inire is a clearly alien \nvizier who works for many autarchs including Severian at a later time; he is \novertly present only in BotNS and while he presumably knows many \nmagics/technologies, he is not observed to delve in necromancy. When Wolfe \nwrote Inire, we can be certain that Ceryx was not in his mind, or it would \ntruly have been a different book! Really, an idea like this needs a lot of \njustification. Instead, it comes in the very next paragraph after a theory \nthat the Cumaean is Ymar's never-mentioned twin sister is refuted!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How come Scylla sounds so childish in comparison to Tartaros if she was \nolder and they were\nscanned at the same time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As the girl with snake-arms on the ship in RttW? Or when Scylla possesses \nChenille in LotLS? I think\nin Chenille she sounds like a haughty young woman, roughly of Chenille's \nage. She certainly\ndoesn't sound as young as Cilinia to me. Tartaros does sound older, wiser \nand world-weary. Maybe,\neven in scanned form, he has experienced more pain and sorrow than Scylla. \nPerhaps one can mature\nas a computer program?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is a strange point about Scylla, certainly. In her Window she appears \nas a young girl on the cusp of womanhood, and Tartaros tells us that the \ngods appear to us as they see themselves. I lean to the view that Tartaros \nmatured, while Scylla did not, before or after scanning, or both.\n\nI don't see why one should not mature as a computer program. Most of \nWolfe's computerised people are embodied in humanoid androids of some kind, \nand I think there is considerable evidence that they are similar to people \nin most ways including the ability to change. It is probably more difficult \nfor disembodied programs, and also for god-like rulers, and Scylla and \nTartaros were both - but I would not say it is impossible.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDE7266.408@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-26T15:31:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ymar had contacts with Yesod and hierogrammates - he could very well be \ntaken\nforward in time before he become an autarch? Or after his visit to Yesod?\n\nAs to Typhon - he was a ruler of the whole Urth, and the last who ruled \nit all.\nEven if it was called Commonwealth, it was another state. He was overthrown\nin a mass rebellion. If we take the empires in our own recent past - \ndestroyed\nby social movements, revolutions etc. - and new states born, seldom\nthe history of the Empire is studied, rather rejected (except maybe in \nthe state that feels itself\nits successor). Take British Empire, queen Victoria and India. Or \nAustro-Hungarian\nEmpire - its history is studied in Austria but not much by Tcheks or \nHungarians.\nWho was their last Emperor? Do you remember?\n\nBest\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" \nAntonio Pedro Marques:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I find the chronology overall very confusing but I'm certain\nit is just as GW intended it, because he didn't have any gun to his \nhead not to make\nit correct....No, I don't think he would introduce brutal \nincoherence into latter works\njust because it would be cool to have this or that episode happen. \nAnd I don't find the\n'it's all different universes' theory satisfying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The incoherence of introducing Ymar is not all that brutal if one does \nnot try to closely analyse the story as a realistic history. Perhaps \nWolfe underestimated how hard readers would pluck at the threads. The \nYmar episode is a cool story, and it may be that Wolfe thought its \ncoolness would outweigh the questions raised by the quick succession \nof Ymar. Or perhaps he felt that the rapid succession of Ymar was \nplausible. After all, it might not have been all that rapid. Perhaps \nYmar only attained the Autarchy in his fifties, after decades of chaos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I admit that mapping timelines is of far less interest to me than to \nmany other Wolfe fans.\nTo borrow a Gerry line, I'd rather just read the story Gene Wolfe \nwrote. But I am glad\nsome people take the trouble to do it. It can be helpful. But I am \nwilling to accept that\nsome story elements won't jibe perfectly with others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By that line I did not mean to mock your intelligence. But ideas like \n\"Ceryx is Inire\" do read to me like notions that are transplanted from \nsome completely other book. Ceryx is a clearly human necromancer who \nappears briefly to challenge Severian the Conciliator in UotNS. At the \nend of the chapter he appears in, he is killed by a mob. Inire is a \nclearly alien vizier who works for many autarchs including Severian at \na later time; he is overtly present only in BotNS and while he \npresumably knows many magics/technologies, he is not observed to delve \nin necromancy. When Wolfe wrote Inire, we can be certain that Ceryx \nwas not in his mind, or it would truly have been a different book! \nReally, an idea like this needs a lot of justification. Instead, it \ncomes in the very next paragraph after a theory that the Cumaean is \nYmar's never-mentioned twin sister is refuted!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How come Scylla sounds so childish in comparison to Tartaros if she \nwas older and they were\nscanned at the same time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As the girl with snake-arms on the ship in RttW? Or when Scylla \npossesses Chenille in LotLS? I think\nin Chenille she sounds like a haughty young woman, roughly of \nChenille's age. She certainly\ndoesn't sound as young as Cilinia to me. Tartaros does sound older, \nwiser and world-weary. Maybe,\neven in scanned form, he has experienced more pain and sorrow than \nScylla. Perhaps one can mature\nas a computer program?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is a strange point about Scylla, certainly. In her Window she \nappears as a young girl on the cusp of womanhood, and Tartaros tells \nus that the gods appear to us as they see themselves. I lean to the \nview that Tartaros matured, while Scylla did not, before or after \nscanning, or both.\n\nI don't see why one should not mature as a computer program. Most of \nWolfe's computerised people are embodied in humanoid androids of some \nkind, and I think there is considerable evidence that they are similar \nto people in most ways including the ability to change. It is probably \nmore difficult for disembodied programs, and also for god-like rulers, \nand Scylla and Tartaros were both - but I would not say it is impossible.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDE7402.3020602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T15:38:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I find the chronology overall very confusing but I'm certain\nit is just as GW intended it, because he didn't have any gun to his \nhead not to make\nit correct....No, I don't think he would introduce brutal \nincoherence into latter works\njust because it would be cool to have this or that episode happen. \nAnd I don't find the\n'it's all different universes' theory satisfying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry:\nThe incoherence of introducing Ymar is not all that brutal if one does \nnot try to closely analyse the story as a realistic history. Perhaps \nWolfe underestimated how hard readers would pluck at the threads. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the problem is Wolfe's answer to the Ymar date question in an \ninterview. I suspect he was probably too flippant in giving an answer. I \ndoubt he had thought carefully how long it had been since Typhon/Ymar \nautarch (just as --over time, based on interview answers-- the length of \nTime between Severian and Neil Armstrong adjusted in his mind). \nAdditionally, we must remember that no one here (who has said so) has \nseen the text of that interview in question. If Mantis has a copy of the \nThrust issue in question, he has never posted the precise context. He \nmight have been working from memory himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Ymar episode is a cool story, and it may be that Wolfe thought its \ncoolness would outweigh the questions raised by the quick succession \nof Ymar. Or perhaps he felt that the rapid succession of Ymar was \nplausible. After all, it might not have been all that rapid. Perhaps \nYmar only attained the Autarchy in his fifties, after decades of chaos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I presumed this was true. And the story of Frog certainly leaves that \nopen. Certainly there is a tribulation period between Typhon's 'death' \nand Ymar's rise from the Guild. He's too young otherwise when Severian \nmeets him, and he has yet done all the things in the Story of Frog." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As the girl with snake-arms on the ship in RttW? Or when Scylla \npossesses Chenille in LotLS? I think\nin Chenille she sounds like a haughty young woman, roughly of \nChenille's age. She certainly\ndoesn't sound as young as Cilinia to me. Tartaros does sound older, \nwiser and world-weary. Maybe,\neven in scanned form, he has experienced more pain and sorrow than \nScylla. Perhaps one can mature\nas a computer program? That is a strange point about Scylla, \ncertainly. In her Window she appears as a young girl on the cusp of \nwomanhood, and Tartaros tells us that the gods appear to us as they \nsee themselves. I lean to the view that Tartaros matured, while \nScylla did not, before or after scanning, or both. I don't see why \none should not mature as a computer program. Most of Wolfe's \ncomputerised people are embodied in humanoid androids of some kind, \nand I think there is considerable evidence that they are similar to \npeople in most ways including the ability to change. It is probably \nmore difficult for disembodied programs, and also for god-like \nrulers, and Scylla and Tartaros were both - but I would not say it is \nimpossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right (mostly). As Kypris-in-Chenille said, every time a Whorl god \npossesses a person and is reincorporated, it takes with it something \nfrom that person. The gods we meet are Typhon's family after centuries \nof this process. We assume that as a person \"matures\" they become nicer \nand wiser. Sometimes this happens but often (maybe usually) they become \nmore extended versions of themselves. And who the gods are inclined to \npossess will determine their evolution as well.\n\nI've mentioned before that during a Wolfe Q&A panel someone said \"After \nall, Typhon was sort of on the Whorl as Pas...\"\nWolfe quickly jumped in to correct him, \"No! Typhon _was_ on the Whorl \nas Pas.\" In Wolfe's mind, these scans of their personalities _are_ \nduplicates of the originals -- even if, after tinkering and Time, they \nchange in different ways.\n\nAs, in the Gaiman novel 'American Gods', Norway Odin told Shadow about \nAmerican Odin \"He was me, but I am not him.\"\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<448B93E6-0D64-4A6F-8BBE-4CB41B39E0F4@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T15:45:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 26, 2011, at 11:12 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nPerhaps Wolfe underestimated how hard readers would pluck at the threads." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm really not sure if there exists a more succinct summarization of the legend of Wolfe than in the above quotation. I also bet you would get an agreement from Mr. Wolfe himself on this point.\n\nThanks, Gerry.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<79783.48642.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-26T15:56:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DDE7266.408@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudolf?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 5/26/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Chronology\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" , urth at urth.net\nDate: Thursday, May 26, 2011, 11:31 AM\nIf we take the empires in our own\nrecent past - destroyed\nby social movements, revolutions etc. - and new states\nborn, seldom\nthe history of the Empire is studied, rather rejected\n(except maybe in the state that feels itself\nits successor). Take British Empire, queen Victoria and\nIndia. Or Austro-Hungarian\nEmpire - its history is studied in Austria but not much by\nTcheks or Hungarians.\nWho was their last Emperor? Do you remember?\n\nBest\n\nSergei" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDE7DC2.2050403@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-26T16:20:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "<79783.48642.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Charles I* (/Karl Franz Joseph Ludwig Hubert Georg Otto Marie von \nHabsburg-Lothringen/, English \n: /Charles Francis Joseph \nLouis Hubert George Otto Mary of Habsburg-Lorraine/, /Hungarian/: *IV. \nK?roly* or /K?roly Ferenc J?zsef/, /Italian/: Carlo Francesco Ludovico \nGiorgio Ottone Maria d'Asburgo Lorena, Polish \n: /Karol Franciszek J?zef \nLudwik Hubert Jerzy Otto Maria Habsbursko-Lotary?ski/, Ukrainian \n: /???? ? ????? ?????/) \n(17 August 1887 — 1 April 1922) was (among other titles) the last ruler \nof the Austro-Hungarian Empire \n.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nRudolf?\n\n--- On Thu, 5/26/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Chronology\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" , urth at urth.net\nDate: Thursday, May 26, 2011, 11:31 AM\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we take the empires in our own\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "recent past - destroyed\nby social movements, revolutions etc. - and new states\nborn, seldom\nthe history of the Empire is studied, rather rejected\n(except maybe in the state that feels itself\nits successor). Take British Empire, queen Victoria and\nIndia. Or Austro-Hungarian\nEmpire - its history is studied in Austria but not much by\nTcheks or Hungarians.\nWho was their last Emperor? Do you remember?\n\nBest\n\nSergei\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<38BF3918-85B7-49C3-AC7D-273A4456357A@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T17:21:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "<448B93E6-0D64-4A6F-8BBE-4CB41B39E0F4@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 26/05/2011, ?s 16:45, Ryan Dunn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 26, 2011, at 11:12 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps Wolfe underestimated how hard readers would pluck at the threads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm really not sure if there exists a more succinct summarization of the legend of Wolfe than in the above quotation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't like it. I think it's true, but that it applies to more contrived speculation. Then the problem is that each one will have their idea of what's contrived, rightfully or not. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DDE8F38.2090703@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T17:34:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/26/2011 6:16 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI find the chronology overall very confusing but I'm certain it is just as GW intended it, because he didn't have any gun to his head not to make it correct.\n\n- Ymar both sounds and doesn't sound like the first autarch - though just as Typhon refers to himself as autarch, commonwealthers may have applied the term to any earlier ruler." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right on - \"autarch\" is understood to mean the ruler in charge of a \nnation - so it gets used for any number of nation rulers, who weren't \nnecessarily THE Autarch, or called themselves that at the time. Like the \ncurrent interchangeability of king and pharaoh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Typhon shouldn't have been forgotten, even if his rise and fall were meteoric - cf Alexander -, could memory of him have been deliberately suppressed? And yet they'd leave him around in his mountain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was a pretty remote mountain, and the giant robots still animate in \nSeverian's day may have kept people at a respectful distance in earlier, \nlivelier centuries. By the time of their decrepitude, it was just one \nmore carved mountain among many." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T17:36:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "<38BF3918-85B7-49C3-AC7D-273A4456357A@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2011/5/26 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No dia 26/05/2011, ?s 16:45, Ryan Dunn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On May 26, 2011, at 11:12 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps Wolfe underestimated how hard readers would pluck at the threads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm really not sure if there exists a more succinct summarization of the legend of Wolfe than in the above quotation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't like it. I think it's true, but that it applies to more contrived speculation. Then the problem is that each one will have their idea of what's contrived, rightfully or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I do not like it. There are too many notes.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<73371D6A-1CB1-4EEF-B4D9-5009B4E74993@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T17:55:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "<79783.48642.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good heavens, no. Everybody knows it was Karl. \n\nBut we're not talking about the ephemeral last ruler of a long standing empire. We're talking about a major conqueror who founded an ephemeral empire. \n\nNo dia 26/05/2011, ?s 16:56, DAVID STOCKHOFF escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rudolf?\n\n--- On Thu, 5/26/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) Chronology\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" , urth at urth.net\nDate: Thursday, May 26, 2011, 11:31 AM\nIf we take the empires in our own\nrecent past - destroyed\nby social movements, revolutions etc. - and new states\nborn, seldom\nthe history of the Empire is studied, rather rejected\n(except maybe in the state that feels itself\nits successor). Take British Empire, queen Victoria and\nIndia. Or Austro-Hungarian\nEmpire - its history is studied in Austria but not much by\nTcheks or Hungarians.\nWho was their last Emperor? Do you remember?\n\nBest\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T19:48:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar", "in_reply_to": "<4DDD84D9.4080101@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n* Early Summer = June = Juno [ding!] (Although this betrays a naivety in\nthinking Juno was originally a season, each name is a reasonable\ntranslation of either of the others.)\n\n* Bird of the Woods = ?Rhea Silvia (same thing) [ding!]\n\n* Spring Wind = March Winds = March = Mars [buzzer sound]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure why June is OK for Juno, but March is not OK for Mars.\n(We're asking what a redactor of the myth might think. What\nassociations the name might have outside the story, what symbolic\nvalue Wolfe might give it, is another question.)\n\nRegarding the evidence of dates: every bit of it can be answered.\nSeverian may be wrong about the date of the Conciliator. Cyriaca may\nbe wrong about the book - she's certainly wrong about some things. (I\nwas wrong, in any case, to say she says the book was several chiliads\nold; she says no one has looked at it for a chiliad, though that\nimplies it's considerably earlier than that.) A lot of early autarchs\nmay have had short reigns, which allowed the mountains to be carved\nquickly. (It's the number of autarchs, rather than the time it takes\nto carve a mountain, which is the problem.) Thus, Wolfe was able to\nmake Typhon just a chiliad earlier without direct contradiction - its\nnot as if he had made Typhon say 'I was born five thousand eight\nhundred and forty-three years ago'. But a lot of people get the feel\nof a much earlier Typhon - all the bits of evidence seem naturally to\npoint to it. and are confused when, in _Short Sun_, the gap seems to\nbe much shorter.\n\nThere are, I think, two relevant interviews - one from the time of\nBOTNS which just makes Ymar a chiliad earlier; the other a later one\nwhich makes Typhon a chiliad earlier. The second seems to contradict\nthe most natural reading of BOTNS, and suggests that Wolfe has\nadjusted his timeline at some point. I suggest that part of that\nadjustment was to make Typhon and Ymar contemporaries, when they\nhadn't been before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The chronology based on the Rajan's spirit-travel is pretty dicey. The\nRajan is a Time traveler, and if you consider pay attention to when Horn\nleft home, and how long ago Hoof and Hide left, it is clear that the\nRajan has been jumping around alot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is that relevant, though? The gap the characters are trying to\ndetermine is between Rigoglio's departure (Typhon's time) and his\nreturn (Severian's time) - both on Urth. What the Rajan's home time\nis, on Blue, is another issue." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-26T19:57:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "<73371D6A-1CB1-4EEF-B4D9-5009B4E74993@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThat is a strange point about Scylla, certainly. ?In her Window she appears\nas a young girl on the cusp of womanhood, and Tartaros tells us that the\ngods appear to us as they see themselves. ?I lean to the view that Tartaros\nmatured, while Scylla did not, before or after scanning, or both." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That Tartaros was an adult when he was scanned is suggested by one\nthing; at Silk's second enlightenment one of his visions is 'a blind\ngod metamorphosised from a blind man [not boy], who remained a blind\nman, and was struck'.\n\nIs it obvious that everyone was scanned at the same time? Preesumably\nit took some time to load the Whorl, both with humans and with\ncomputerised beings. Pas was certainly scanned right at the end - so,\ntherefore, was Kypris, as she was with him at the time, and remembers\nit. But others may have been scanned earlier." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8BA1680C-AA05-4C6B-8432-4ECA2C0D5468@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-27T00:39:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 26/05/2011, ?s 20:48, Andrew Mason escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are, I think, two relevant interviews - one from the time of\nBOTNS which just makes Ymar a chiliad earlier; the other a later one\nwhich makes Typhon a chiliad earlier. The second seems to contradict\nthe most natural reading of BOTNS, and suggests that Wolfe has\nadjusted his timeline at some point. I suggest that part of that\nadjustment was to make Typhon and Ymar contemporaries, when they\nhadn't been before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And which wasn't at all needed. That's why I find it strange that GW would do violence to his chronology. I like Sergei's idea that Ymar may have been autarch centuries after he was born. Or Ymar the first autarch may not have been Ymar the Almost Just, why should the latter need such a qualifier?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The chronology based on the Rajan's spirit-travel is pretty dicey. The\nRajan is a Time traveler, and if you consider pay attention to when Horn\nleft home, and how long ago Hoof and Hide left, it is clear that the\nRajan has been jumping around alot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is that relevant, though? The gap the characters are trying to\ndetermine is between Rigoglio's departure (Typhon's time) and his\nreturn (Severian's time) - both on Urth. What the Rajan's home time\nis, on Blue, is another issue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think so too, but JW liked the opportunity to defend his theory as fact. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-27T00:41:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 26/05/2011, ?s 20:57, Andrew Mason escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is a strange point about Scylla, certainly. In her Window she appears\nas a young girl on the cusp of womanhood, and Tartaros tells us that the\ngods appear to us as they see themselves. I lean to the view that Tartaros\nmatured, while Scylla did not, before or after scanning, or both." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That Tartaros was an adult when he was scanned is suggested by one\nthing; at Silk's second enlightenment one of his visions is 'a blind\ngod metamorphosised from a blind man [not boy], who remained a blind\nman, and was struck'.\n\nIs it obvious that everyone was scanned at the same time? Preesumably\nit took some time to load the Whorl, both with humans and with\ncomputerised beings. Pas was certainly scanned right at the end - so,\ntherefore, was Kypris, as she was with him at the time, and remembers\nit. But others may have been scanned earlier." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the part where someone suggested a year of the whorl, in which all that plus typhon's downfall would have happened. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-27T15:23:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar", "in_reply_to": "<8BA1680C-AA05-4C6B-8432-4ECA2C0D5468@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And which wasn't at all needed. That's why I find it strange that GW would do violence to his chronology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, lots of people have thought, for reasons quite independent of\nYmar, that something has changed at some point between _New Sun_ (the\noriginal quartet) and _Short Sun_ - and of course there was never a\ndetailed chronology; it may not be so much a matter of positively\nchanging as of making definite things that were previously indefinite." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like Sergei's idea that Ymar may have been autarch centuries after he was born. Or Ymar the first autarch may not have been Ymar the Almost Just, why should the latter need such a qualifier?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they are the same, because Severian says to Reechy/Ymar 'rule\njustly, or at least as justly as ciicumstances permit'." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-27T15:28:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marquez wrote:\n\nIt's the part where someone suggested a year of the whorl, in which all that plus typhon's downfall would have happened." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you remember where that comes?\n\nOne thing that puzzles me is where the landers travelling to the Whorl\nleft from. You might expect that they - at least the ones from the\n'Commonwealth' area - would leave from the spaceport of Nessus. Yet we\nknow that by the last year of Typhon's reign that had been closed, and\nturned into a Citadel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE0BC0D.3080708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-28T09:10:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote:\nAntonio Pedro Marquez wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's the part where someone suggested a year of the whorl, in which\nall that plus typhon's downfall would have happened." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you remember where that comes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant readers suggested it, not the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing that puzzles me is where the landers travelling to the\nWhorl left from. You might expect that they - at least the ones from\nthe 'Commonwealth' area - would leave from the spaceport of Nessus.\nYet we know that by the last year of Typhon's reign that had been\nclosed, and turned into a Citadel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then they left before that :) I suppose the Whorl took years to be peopled." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE0BD9E.1070305@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-28T09:17:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote:\nAnd which wasn't at all needed. That's why I find it strange that\nGW would do violence to his chronology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, lots of people have thought, for reasons quite independent of\nYmar, that something has changed at some point between _New Sun_\n(the original quartet) and _Short Sun_ - and of course there was\nnever a detailed chronology; it may not be so much a matter of\npositively changing as of making definite things that were previously\nindefinite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if someone could come up with an integrated chronology for all of\nGerry Anderson's stuff, it stands to reason that it will be very\ndifficult to prove anything about the evolution of GW's conception of\nthe Sun universe. I don't find it strange that SS is different from LS\nand both very different from NS, I'd just like to understand why, though\nthere may be no ultimate reason for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I like Sergei's idea that Ymar may have been autarch centuries\nafter he was born. Or Ymar the first autarch may not have been Ymar\nthe Almost Just, why should the latter need such a qualifier?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think they are the same, because Severian says to Reechy/Ymar\n'rule justly, or at least as justly as ciicumstances permit'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point, but then again Severian's not omniscient either." } ] } ] }