{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6029", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6029, "subject": "Problematic element in chronology", "messages": 52, "voices": 12, "first": "2011-05-27T23:53:51+00:00", "last": "2011-06-02T20:12:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<87E792FA008E4A679A9EFA68176C4976@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-27T23:53:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I got to thinking about the distance from Urth to Blue today and after looking up some stuff I found a problem.\n\nOn Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that they can, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of course Sol, etiolated by the black hole inside it. \n\nI looked up some stuff, and as near as I can tell, they following is true: Sol (currently) has an absolute magnitude of 5. That means it would be barely visible from 50 light years away. Red Sol will be even dimmer.\n\nBut if the Whorl only travelled 50 light years, relativistic time dilation will have been fairly insignificant. Specifically, there's no reasonable way that you could 'lose' more time than the distance you travelled in light years. On this basis, the Whorl was launched no more than 350 or so years ago in Urth time.\n\nOn the whole, I put this down to Wolfe not fretting too much about the details - I still think there is supposaed to be a relativistic time dilation factor of up to five or six, even if it is contradictory in some ways (it also fails because the energy needed to accelerate the Whorl to such a velocity would have been more than enough to replace the solar energy deficit, and Typhon would surely have repurposed the Whorl drive for this).\n\nBut if the physics is correct, the Whorl has little in the way of time dilation, and Typhon lived only about 350 years before Severian.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE0BB7C.2060406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-28T09:08:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<87E792FA008E4A679A9EFA68176C4976@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nOn Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that they\ncan, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of course\nSol, etiolated by the black hole inside it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we only have the narrator's word for it, and the narrator isnt \nomniscient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the whole, I put this down to Wolfe not fretting too much about the\ndetails (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it's that.\n\nI think GW fretts paranoidly about the details when the details matter.\n\nWhen the details are unimportant I think he nontheless handles them with \nsome care.\n\nWhen, as in this case, the details depend on knowledge no one has within \nthe story, he's free and willing to improvise.\n\nWhen the details depend on knowledge no one has period, he's almost \nobliged to improvise. One of the things that makes 'hard' sf so \nridiculous is its datedness. As-of-time-of-writing scientific consensus \ndates a work even more than cassette tapes do. Constraining a story by \nscientific boundaries is not different from constraining it by \ntechnological ones.\n\nOf course, it's one thing not to be limited by science, and another to \ncontradict it too much (cf. a story I've read recently which places \nSanskrit 11k years in the past). Unless it's got a good reason behind \nit, it comes across as just uninformed." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE1409B.1000103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-28T18:36:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE0BB7C.2060406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the main reason the NS/LS/SS universes differ slightly (maybe) \nis that Wolfe is too busy paying attention to the stories themselves to \nrack his brain to try to recall some detail from a previous book.\n\nYou can only keep that stuff in your head for so long, and if you are \nengaged with a new story and new characters, there is no real need to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/28/2011 5:08 AM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that they\ncan, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of course\nSol, etiolated by the black hole inside it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we only have the narrator's word for it, and the narrator isnt \nomniscient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the whole, I put this down to Wolfe not fretting too much about the\ndetails (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think it's that.\n\nI think GW fretts paranoidly about the details when the details matter.\n\nWhen the details are unimportant I think he nontheless handles them \nwith some care.\n\nWhen, as in this case, the details depend on knowledge no one has \nwithin the story, he's free and willing to improvise.\n\nWhen the details depend on knowledge no one has period, he's almost \nobliged to improvise. One of the things that makes 'hard' sf so \nridiculous is its datedness. As-of-time-of-writing scientific \nconsensus dates a work even more than cassette tapes do. Constraining \na story by scientific boundaries is not different from constraining it \nby technological ones.\n\nOf course, it's one thing not to be limited by science, and another to \ncontradict it too much (cf. a story I've read recently which places \nSanskrit 11k years in the past). Unless it's got a good reason behind \nit, it comes across as just uninformed.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<919CCDA1A13748D3885C08CACA98A8FF@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-28T18:42:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE0BB7C.2060406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that they\ncan, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of course\nSol, etiolated by the black hole inside it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we only have the narrator's word for it, and the narrator isnt \nomniscient." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True enough... but in most Wolfe including all of the Solar Cycle, we only \nhave the narratopr's word for *everything*. One has to ask why he should \nlie, or make a mistake? And if he hasn't seen the star, why should he say \nit is visible, whereas if he has, why should he mistake a particular star \nfor Sol?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the whole, I put this down to Wolfe not fretting too much about the\ndetails (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think it's that.\n\nI think GW fretts paranoidly about the details when the details matter.\n\nWhen the details are unimportant I think he nontheless handles them with \nsome care.\n\nWhen, as in this case, the details depend on knowledge no one has within \nthe story, he's free and willing to improvise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But SilkHorn must have chosen the star for some reason - he hardly picked it \nat random. If he incorporates some of Pas, albeit not yet fully \nassimilated, it may be that he has access to full knowledge with respect to \nthe Whorl's trajectory.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When the details depend on knowledge no one has period, he's almost \nobliged to improvise. One of the things that makes 'hard' sf so ridiculous \nis its datedness. As-of-time-of-writing scientific consensus dates a work \neven more than cassette tapes do. Constraining a story by scientific \nboundaries is not different from constraining it by technological ones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The speed of light and the distance from which the Sun is visible aren't \ngoing to change with tomorrow's research. Some science is permanent.\n\nI think he either (1) didn't think of this point, (2) supports a 350-year \nchronology between Typhon and Severian, or (3) thought it would be cool to \nhave Sol visible even if the physics doesn't work. I think Wolfe is quite \nhappy to gloss over lots of dodgy science if it fits the story \n(realistically, it's obvious - leaving aside physics for the moment, \nabsorbing not just memories but *memories coordinated into a personality* by \neating corpses is obviously impossible.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE16055.2060503@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-28T20:51:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<87E792FA008E4A679A9EFA68176C4976@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Gerry,\n\nplease, have a look at Red Giants (final stage of evolution of sun-like \nstars). Obviously,\nthe sun in the \"BotNS\" entered this stage - the atmosphere of the star \nbecomes very large\nand red (the temperature drops, but the total luminosity is much \ngreater). There are many such stars\nin our vicinity. The dim star mentioned by Silkhorn maybe thousands \nlight years away.\n(Red giants, like Aldebaran, that are 50 - 60 light years from here, are \namong the most\nbright stars.)\n\nIt does pose other problems, I agree. Red giant may have a diameter like \nVenus orbit,\nand if Urth were at the same distance as Earth, it would be burned (even \nif the\ntemperature of the surface of the star is less). I don't know whether \nGene Wolfe\ndid take all this physics into account, maybe not, but I am sure he did know\nabout red giants.\n\nPossible explanation. In Typhon's time or earlier the technical power of \nhumanity\nseems to be sufficient to make the distance of Urth from the Sun greater, to\nprevent its burning or swallowing by the Sun. Maybe it was done. Notice \nthat in the BotNS there is\nno clear indication how long is their year, I don't remember anything about\nthe names of the months, that there is 12 months (or other number, maybe\n17), how much days is in one month, how much days in a year, how much\nhours in one day. There are watches - yes - but I think all concrete \nindications\nare eliminated (deliberately?) by GW. The mass of the sun when\nit becomes Red Giant doesn't change, so the orbital period for\nmore distant orbit has to be longer. By the way, if their year is longer,\nit may explain the \"too rapid\" ascencion of Severian to power.\n\nAfter the end of the rule of Typhon the technical might dropped \nconsiderably,\nand the humans could probably do nothing any more about the orbit of\nUrth etc. The energy output of Red Giants is very unstable, so,\nif later it got weaker, the Urth may become cold place threatened\nby glaciers, and nobody had energy or knowledge to do anything.\n\nI think (I repeat myself) that GW tried to be very careful about scientific\ndetails. Do not take for granted the idea that inside the old sun there is\na black hole. It is something that is presented as common idea in Severian's\ntimes, but I don't see from the text that GW himself thinks that.\nI sounds \"mythologically\" beautiful, but it was easily accessible \ninformation to GW\nin 70-es, and even more easily later, that black hole will swallow very \nquickly\nall the atmosphere of the red giant. It would by the way be an explosive \nprocess\nthat would burn everything a couple of light years around\n(kind of supernova). An encounter of a real black hole\nwith a white fountain would be also extremely explosive - not just tides.\n\nRemark. I think that my views about the importance of human and \npsychological\nside are slightly distorted on the list, I do not reject mythological \nand \"gnostic\" meaning\nat all, I just don't agree when the abstract symmetry of these schemas does\ncontradict the truth of characters described by GW as I see it from\nthe text. (I'll try to develop it in another mail.)\n\nBest regards\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI got to thinking about the distance from Urth to Blue today and after \nlooking up some stuff I found a problem.\n \nOn Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that they \ncan, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of \ncourse Sol, etiolated by the black hole inside it. \n \nI looked up some stuff, and as near as I can tell, they following is \ntrue: Sol (currently) has an absolute magnitude of 5. That means it \nwould be barely visible from 50 light years away. Red Sol will be \neven dimmer.\n \nBut if the Whorl only travelled 50 light years, relativistic time \ndilation will have been fairly insignificant. Specifically, there's \nno reasonable way that you could 'lose' more time than the distance \nyou travelled in light years. On this basis, the Whorl was launched \nno more than 350 or so years ago in Urth time.\n \nOn the whole, I put this down to Wolfe not fretting too much about the \ndetails - I still think there is supposaed to be a relativistic time \ndilation factor of up to five or six, even if it is contradictory in \nsome ways (it also fails because the energy needed to accelerate the \nWhorl to such a velocity would have been more than enough to replace \nthe solar energy deficit, and Typhon would surely have repurposed the \nWhorl drive for this).\n \nBut if the physics is correct, the Whorl has little in the way of time \ndilation, and Typhon lived only about 350 years before Severian.\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n \n \n \n \n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE21734.2020601@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-29T09:51:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<4DE16055.2060503@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/28/2011 3:51 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nDear Gerry,\n\nplease, have a look at Red Giants (final stage of evolution of sun-like\nstars). Obviously,\nthe sun in the \"BotNS\" entered this stage - the atmosphere of the star\nbecomes very large\nand red (the temperature drops, but the total luminosity is much\ngreater)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not obvious to me. Details of shadows' boundaries and of dawn \nand dusk (the same thing, since they are the boundaries of the earth's \nshadow) are much as they are today. The solar disc might even have \nshrunk slightly if the \"50,000 leagues\" turns out to be a \nmisinterpretation of the moon appearing larger than the sun instead of \nbeing roughly equal as they do today." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It does pose other problems, I agree. Red giant may have a diameter like\nVenus orbit,\nand if Urth were at the same distance as Earth, it would be burned (even\nif the\ntemperature of the surface of the star is less). I don't know whether\nGene Wolfe\ndid take all this physics into account, maybe not, but I am sure he did\nknow\nabout red giants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And we are equally sure that Skuld still appears in the sky of \nSeverian's time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think (I repeat myself) that GW tried to be very careful about scientific\ndetails. Do not take for granted the idea that inside the old sun there is\na black hole. It is something that is presented as common idea in\nSeverian's\ntimes, but I don't see from the text that GW himself thinks that.\nI sounds \"mythologically\" beautiful, but it was easily accessible\ninformation to GW\nin 70-es, and even more easily later, that black hole will swallow very\nquickly\nall the atmosphere of the red giant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not if it is a quantum or merely small black hole, or a swarm of several \nsuggested by the black beans. They are too small to eat much even in the \nimpressively dense core of the sun, but their gravitation could could \ndisturb the sun's burn rate by supression of light element fusion via \ngravitational containment and/or premature instigation of heavy element \nfusion in an asymetrical patter, cutting down on overall energy output.\n\nIt can also keep the intermediate layers disrupted so that energy \ntransfer to the outer layers is decreased, or possibly increased then \ndecreased. Stars are amazingly complex and contrary that way, like when \nsupernova explosions turn out to be primed by the collapse of the core \nand the end of fusion there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would by the way be an explosive\nprocess\nthat would burn everything a couple of light years around\n(kind of supernova). An encounter of a real black hole\nwith a white fountain would be also extremely explosive - not just tides." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er, the white hole is already extremely explosive. Anything that comes \nout arrives at escape velocity for the entire universe, and the energy \nis blue-shifted accordingly. But the White Fountain is almost much \nsmaller than the sun, with which the earth cohabitates already." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<679FD4311A9F4A73A8DE89EA7866C3A3@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-29T16:41:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<4DE16055.2060503@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Sergei SOLOVIEV\" \nDear Gerry,\n\nplease, have a look at Red Giants (final stage of evolution of sun-like \nstars). Obviously,\nthe sun in the \"BotNS\" entered this stage - the atmosphere of the star \nbecomes very large\nand red (the temperature drops, but the total luminosity is much greater)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Jeff that the red giant idea has a lot of problems, especially \nwhen really the only thing it is needed to fix is a likely small slip by \nWolfe with regard to the visibility of Sol from Blue. There is no evidence \nthat the Sun looks especially large as seen from Urth, and we have Typhon's \nassertion that the solar output decreased rather than increased." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possible explanation. In Typhon's time or earlier the technical power of \nhumanity\nseems to be sufficient to make the distance of Urth from the Sun greater, \nto\nprevent its burning or swallowing by the Sun. Maybe it was done. Notice \nthat in the BotNS there is\nno clear indication how long is their year, I don't remember anything \nabout\nthe names of the months, that there is 12 months (or other number, maybe\n17), how much days is in one month, how much days in a year, how much\nhours in one day. There are watches - yes - but I think all concrete \nindications\nare eliminated (deliberately?) by GW. The mass of the sun when\nit becomes Red Giant doesn't change, so the orbital period for\nmore distant orbit has to be longer. By the way, if their year is longer,\nit may explain the \"too rapid\" ascencion of Severian to power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is indeed vague about time but mostly with regard to long times (he \neven says so in an appendix - arguably defending himself neatly in advance \nagainst threads such as this!) Children don't seem to age in a matter of a \nfew years, though I cannot think of any specific proff that years are much \nlonger than now. Nobody mentions it, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think (I repeat myself) that GW tried to be very careful about \nscientific\ndetails. Do not take for granted the idea that inside the old sun there is\na black hole. It is something that is presented as common idea in \nSeverian's\ntimes, but I don't see from the text that GW himself thinks that.\nI sounds \"mythologically\" beautiful, but it was easily accessible \ninformation to GW\nin 70-es, and even more easily later, that black hole will swallow very \nquickly\nall the atmosphere of the red giant. It would by the way be an explosive \nprocess\nthat would burn everything a couple of light years around\n(kind of supernova). An encounter of a real black hole\nwith a white fountain would be also extremely explosive - not just tides." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff has proposed some alternatives. Personally I think the simplest thing \nis to believe that there is indeed a black hole in the sun, as everyone in \nthe story agrees. It may not be swallowing the sun rapidly due to the \nformation of an accretion disk which pushes infalling matter away from it. \nOn first principles, one might expect such a black hole to make the sun \nhotter, but it would be hard to prove that no mechanism exists that could \ncause a reverse effect!\n\nAs for the white hole, one might expect an explosive encounter, but since \nwhite holes don't actually exist it is hard to be sure of one's predictions \nin that regard. Wolfe has also referred to a form of anti- matter which is \nrepulsive to gravity. If such anti-matter exists, it seemingly has negative \nenergy, and it might be that the White Fountain also does, in which case it \nmight conceivably just cancel out the black hole.when it collides, leaving \nonly second-order perturbatory effects." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remark. I think that my views about the importance of human and \npsychological\nside are slightly distorted on the list, I do not reject mythological and \n\"gnostic\" meaning\nat all, I just don't agree when the abstract symmetry of these schemas \ndoes\ncontradict the truth of characters described by GW as I see it from\nthe text. (I'll try to develop it in another mail.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you in general, although I don't quite go so far as to think \nthat character studies are the major focus of Wolfe's work - I think they \nare important to him, and theories that do violence to character are proably \nwrong.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE27BB0.7070508@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-29T17:00:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<679FD4311A9F4A73A8DE89EA7866C3A3@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/29/2011 12:41 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nJeff has proposed some alternatives. Personally I think the simplest \nthing is to believe that there is indeed a black hole in the sun, as \neveryone in the story agrees. It may not be swallowing the sun \nrapidly due to the formation of an accretion disk which pushes \ninfalling matter away from it. On first principles, one might expect \nsuch a black hole to make the sun hotter, but it would be hard to \nprove that no mechanism exists that could cause a reverse effect!\n\nAs for the white hole, one might expect an explosive encounter, but \nsince white holes don't actually exist it is hard to be sure of one's \npredictions in that regard. Wolfe has also referred to a form of \nanti- matter which is repulsive to gravity. If such anti-matter \nexists, it seemingly has negative energy, and it might be that the \nWhite Fountain also does, in which case it might conceivably just \ncancel out the black hole.when it collides, leaving only second-order \nperturbatory effects. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there wiggle room (in terms of Popular Mechanics-level 1970s theory) \nfor a theory of black holes that makes them basically a reverse of \n(nonexistent) white fountains? That is: can a black hole be thought of \ncrudely as primarily a \"drain\"?\n\nKeeping in mind that any set of beings capable of \"bringing\" a white \nfountain ought to be able to pull off the reverse. As far as we know, \nevery star has a pair of sealed pipes (labeled IN and OUT) that can be \nopened and hooked up to a pump and an energy source or drain. You just \nhave to know your way around the the sub-basement and interior walls as \nwell as the local building codes and approval processes. ;)\n\nOr, just ignore the accretion disk and other effects because they \ninterfere with the story. Done.\n\nI might note that Typhon referred to the effect on solar output as \namounting to a few percent at most. If you \"figure\" (calculate or \nassume) that that's enough to cool Urth, you don't really need to \ncalculate the effect of processes that are poorly understood anyway and \nprobably have a margin of error larger than that few percent." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE2962A.60200@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-29T18:53:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<679FD4311A9F4A73A8DE89EA7866C3A3@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You say it is not obvious - let me quote Wolfe (from \"Return to the Whorl\",\nchapter \"He took me with him\" - written by Hoof -)\n\n\"The Red Sun was rising behind us, and the old falling-down city was between\nus and it. It was so big and so dark, like a great big coal buried in ashes.\nYou could look right at it , and the whole city was dark against it (...) \nYou could see how big that city was, and it was bigger than I ever imagined (...)\nBut against the Red Sun like that, you saw how little the city was,too. This\nis hard to explain. The city was immense. Huge. (...) So it was all so big\nthat when you looked at it, it was hard to breathe. But the sun kept rising\nand rising, and Nessus was little.\"\n\nSeverian may be so acquanted to his Red Sun that he does not think it\nanything special. Hoof comes from the planet with ordinary yellow sun,\nand he is immediately impressed. (It is possible, of course, that GW\ndidn't think too much about the size of the sun when he wrote TBotNS,\nand decited to be more precise later - but I think this quotation proves\nthat he represents the Red Sun as a Red Giant.)\n\nAlso, somewhere in the \"BotNS\" it is mentioned \nA /Brief History of Time/ (written by Stephen Hawking, subtitled \"From the Big Bang to Black Holes\", but the author and subtitle are\nnot mentioned by Wolfe). One of artefacts of our place and time\nin Wolfe's Solar cycle. (I would make a list\nof such curiosities.) It means that Wolfe himself knew\nthe book, and probably knew well the science of black holes\nof our time.\n\nBest\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Sergei SOLOVIEV\" \nDear Gerry," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "please, have a look at Red Giants (final stage of evolution of \nsun-like stars). Obviously,\nthe sun in the \"BotNS\" entered this stage - the atmosphere of the \nstar becomes very large\nand red (the temperature drops, but the total luminosity is much \ngreater)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with Jeff that the red giant idea has a lot of problems, \nespecially when really the only thing it is needed to fix is a likely \nsmall slip by Wolfe with regard to the visibility of Sol from Blue. \nThere is no evidence that the Sun looks especially large as seen from \nUrth, and we have Typhon's assertion that the solar output decreased \nrather than increased." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Possible explanation. In Typhon's time or earlier the technical power \nof humanity\nseems to be sufficient to make the distance of Urth from the Sun \ngreater, to\nprevent its burning or swallowing by the Sun. Maybe it was done. \nNotice that in the BotNS there is\nno clear indication how long is their year, I don't remember anything \nabout\nthe names of the months, that there is 12 months (or other number, maybe\n17), how much days is in one month, how much days in a year, how much\nhours in one day. There are watches - yes - but I think all concrete \nindications\nare eliminated (deliberately?) by GW. The mass of the sun when\nit becomes Red Giant doesn't change, so the orbital period for\nmore distant orbit has to be longer. By the way, if their year is \nlonger,\nit may explain the \"too rapid\" ascencion of Severian to power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is indeed vague about time but mostly with regard to long times \n(he even says so in an appendix - arguably defending himself neatly in \nadvance against threads such as this!) Children don't seem to age in \na matter of a few years, though I cannot think of any specific proff \nthat years are much longer than now. Nobody mentions it, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think (I repeat myself) that GW tried to be very careful about \nscientific\ndetails. Do not take for granted the idea that inside the old sun \nthere is\na black hole. It is something that is presented as common idea in \nSeverian's\ntimes, but I don't see from the text that GW himself thinks that.\nI sounds \"mythologically\" beautiful, but it was easily accessible \ninformation to GW\nin 70-es, and even more easily later, that black hole will swallow \nvery quickly\nall the atmosphere of the red giant. It would by the way be an \nexplosive process\nthat would burn everything a couple of light years around\n(kind of supernova). An encounter of a real black hole\nwith a white fountain would be also extremely explosive - not just \ntides." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff has proposed some alternatives. Personally I think the simplest \nthing is to believe that there is indeed a black hole in the sun, as \neveryone in the story agrees. It may not be swallowing the sun \nrapidly due to the formation of an accretion disk which pushes \ninfalling matter away from it. On first principles, one might expect \nsuch a black hole to make the sun hotter, but it would be hard to \nprove that no mechanism exists that could cause a reverse effect!\n\nAs for the white hole, one might expect an explosive encounter, but \nsince white holes don't actually exist it is hard to be sure of one's \npredictions in that regard. Wolfe has also referred to a form of \nanti- matter which is repulsive to gravity. If such anti-matter \nexists, it seemingly has negative energy, and it might be that the \nWhite Fountain also does, in which case it might conceivably just \ncancel out the black hole.when it collides, leaving only second-order \nperturbatory effects." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Remark. I think that my views about the importance of human and \npsychological\nside are slightly distorted on the list, I do not reject mythological \nand \"gnostic\" meaning\nat all, I just don't agree when the abstract symmetry of these \nschemas does\ncontradict the truth of characters described by GW as I see it from\nthe text. (I'll try to develop it in another mail.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with you in general, although I don't quite go so far as to \nthink that character studies are the major focus of Wolfe's work - I \nthink they are important to him, and theories that do violence to \ncharacter are proably wrong.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE2A231.1020203@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2011-05-29T19:44:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<4DE2962A.60200@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alas, /A Brief History of Time/ was published in 1988, while BotNS was \n1980-83 and even /Urth of the New Sun/ was 1987.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/29/2011 2:53 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nAlso, somewhere in the \"BotNS\" it is mentioned A /Brief History of \nTime/ (written by Stephen Hawking, subtitled \"From the Big Bang to \nBlack Holes\", but the author and subtitle are\nnot mentioned by Wolfe). One of artefacts of our place and time\nin Wolfe's Solar cycle. (I would make a list\nof such curiosities.) It means that Wolfe himself knew\nthe book, and probably knew well the science of black holes\nof our time. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org/maareviews\n\nSecularists, humanists and quiet worshipers of an unpoliticized God have felt beleaguered, frustrated and unfairly disrespected. There's no energy on the non-zealot side of the cultural debate. There's no Voltaire, no Clarence Darrow, not even a Lenny Bruce to balance the stifling, censorious religiosity -- not even a Bill Clinton or a Jimmy Carter to show that religion doesn't have to resemble some Tom DeLay combination of contempt and pious hypocrisy. So the prayer, so to speak, was that the new pope might miraculously turn out to be a shot in the arm not just for anti-materialism but also for anti-religious humbug, anti-medievalism and anti-repressive orthodoxy.\n -- Tina Brown, in The Washington Post, 4/19/2005" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE2A92F.5050406@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-29T20:14:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<4DE2A231.1020203@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe it's my error, but it was some very similar title mentioned\nby Wolfe, I will try to find what it was exactly. More\nspecial books by Hawking appeared earlier, I've read Hawking and\nEllis on black holes in 70-es -\n/Hawking/, S.W.; /Ellis/, G.F.R. (/1973/). The Large Scale Structure of \nSpace-Time. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.\n\nBest\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fernando Gouvea wrote:\nAlas, /A Brief History of Time/ was published in 1988, while BotNS was \n1980-83 and even /Urth of the New Sun/ was 1987.\n\nFernando\n\nOn 5/29/2011 2:53 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, somewhere in the \"BotNS\" it is mentioned A /Brief History of \nTime/ (written by Stephen Hawking, subtitled \"From the Big Bang to \nBlack Holes\", but the author and subtitle are\nnot mentioned by Wolfe). One of artefacts of our place and time\nin Wolfe's Solar cycle. (I would make a list\nof such curiosities.) It means that Wolfe himself knew\nthe book, and probably knew well the science of black holes\nof our time. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- \n=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics \nColby College \n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org/maareviews\n\nSecularists, humanists and quiet worshipers of an unpoliticized God have felt beleaguered, frustrated and unfairly disrespected. There's no energy on the non-zealot side of the cultural debate. There's no Voltaire, no Clarence Darrow, not even a Lenny Bruce to balance the stifling, censorious religiosity -- not even a Bill Clinton or a Jimmy Carter to show that religion doesn't have to resemble some Tom DeLay combination of contempt and pious hypocrisy. So the prayer, so to speak, was that the new pope might miraculously turn out to be a shot in the arm not just for anti-materialism but also for anti-religious humbug, anti-medievalism and anti-repressive orthodoxy. \n -- Tina Brown, in The Washington Post, 4/19/2005\n\n \n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<96DD2F9C597549E0BEBBC5EABFCBC8B9@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-29T21:00:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<4DE2962A.60200@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Sergei SOLOVIEV\" \nYou say it is not obvious - let me quote Wolfe (from \"Return to the \nWhorl\",\nchapter \"He took me with him\" - written by Hoof -)\n\n\"The Red Sun was rising behind us, and the old falling-down city was \nbetween\nus and it. It was so big and so dark, like a great big coal buried in \nashes.\nYou could look right at it , and the whole city was dark against it (...) \nYou could see how big that city was, and it was bigger than I ever \nimagined (...)\nBut against the Red Sun like that, you saw how little the city was,too. \nThis\nis hard to explain. The city was immense. Huge. (...) So it was all so big\nthat when you looked at it, it was hard to breathe. But the sun kept \nrising\nand rising, and Nessus was little.\"\n\nSeverian may be so acquanted to his Red Sun that he does not think it\nanything special. Hoof comes from the planet with ordinary yellow sun,\nand he is immediately impressed. (It is possible, of course, that GW\ndidn't think too much about the size of the sun when he wrote TBotNS,\nand decited to be more precise later - but I think this quotation proves\nthat he represents the Red Sun as a Red Giant.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting quote, but I don;t think it really proves anything about the \nsize of the sun. It looks big on the horizon, just as the Moon does. But \nHoof hasn't really said anything about its actual apparent size here.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE2CDB1.8070604@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-29T22:50:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<4DE2A92F.5050406@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/29/2011 3:14 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nMaybe it's my error, but it was some very similar title mentioned\nby Wolfe, I will try to find what it was exactly. More\nspecial books by Hawking appeared earlier, I've read Hawking and\nEllis on black holes in 70-es -\n/Hawking/, S.W.; /Ellis/, G.F.R. (/1973/). The Large Scale Structure of\nSpace-Time. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm also sure that Wolfe read Hakwing in the 70's, because Hawking \ndiscovered that small black holes evaporate in 1974, disappearing in a \nfinal burst of radiation. They could be formed in the big bang, but \nwouldn't have lasted until the present day, unless they happened to find \ntheir way to a place of high density matter to increase rate elementary \nparticles managed to hit their tiny event horizons. A place like a \nstellar interior." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<95EA8059E7034536888E387A269C32B8@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-30T00:48:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<4DE2CDB1.8070604@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/29/2011 3:14 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe it's my error, but it was some very similar title mentioned\nby Wolfe, I will try to find what it was exactly. More\nspecial books by Hawking appeared earlier, I've read Hawking and\nEllis on black holes in 70-es -\n/Hawking/, S.W.; /Ellis/, G.F.R. (/1973/). The Large Scale Structure of\nSpace-Time. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm also sure that Wolfe read Hakwing in the 70's, because Hawking \ndiscovered that small black holes evaporate in 1974, disappearing in a \nfinal burst of radiation. They could be formed in the big bang, but \nwouldn't have lasted until the present day, unless they happened to find \ntheir way to a place of high density matter to increase rate elementary \nparticles managed to hit their tiny event horizons. A place like a stellar \ninterior." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the issue of small black holes matters to BotNS - the black \nhole described is absorbtive, and thus large enough to have a low \ntemperature. In the context of black holes, there's actually not much \nmargin between the temperature of a stellar interior and that of outer \nspace. They are either colder or hotter than either, and those that persist \nare certainly colder.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-30T01:21:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<919CCDA1A13748D3885C08CACA98A8FF@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 28/05/2011, ?s 19:42, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that they\ncan, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of course\nSol, etiolated by the black hole inside it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But we only have the narrator's word for it, and the narrator isnt omniscient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True enough... but in most Wolfe including all of the Solar Cycle, we only have the narratopr's word for *everything*. One has to ask why he should lie, or make a mistake? And if he hasn't seen the star, why should he say it is visible, whereas if he has, why should he mistake a particular star for Sol?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's reasonably obvious: he visited a red sun, he saw a red sun in the sky, bingo, he thinks they're the same. That's just one possible explanation which I find more plausible than a GW oversight. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On the whole, I put this down to Wolfe not fretting too much about the\ndetails (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think it's that.\n\nI think GW fretts paranoidly about the details when the details matter.\n\nWhen the details are unimportant I think he nontheless handles them with some care.\n\nWhen, as in this case, the details depend on knowledge no one has within the story, he's free and willing to improvise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But SilkHorn must have chosen the star for some reason - he hardly picked it at random. If he incorporates some of Pas, albeit not yet fully assimilated, it may be that he has access to full knowledge with respect to the Whorl's trajectory.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting, but I don't recall his having access to special knowledge anywhere else. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When the details depend on knowledge no one has period, he's almost obliged to improvise. One of the things that makes 'hard' sf so ridiculous is its datedness. As-of-time-of-writing scientific consensus dates a work even more than cassette tapes do. Constraining a story by scientific boundaries is not different from constraining it by technological ones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The speed of light and the distance from which the Sun is visible aren't going to change with tomorrow's research. Some science is permanent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hence my having said you can't go too much against some basic stuff. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he either (1) didn't think of this point," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not in character. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(2) supports a 350-year chronology between Typhon and Severian," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Makes no sense to me. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or (3) thought it would be cool to have Sol visible even if the physics doesn't work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...and thought to himself there would be no dearth of possible explanations so let's do it. Mirrors? Folded space-time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think Wolfe is quite happy to gloss over lots of dodgy science if it fits the story (realistically, it's obvious - leaving aside physics for the moment, absorbing not just memories but *memories coordinated into a personality* by eating corpses is obviously impossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So we think, but then again it's not like we've much of a portfolio to show as a species. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE30770.3040403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-30T02:56:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<95EA8059E7034536888E387A269C32B8@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/29/2011 7:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI don't think the issue of small black holes matters to BotNS - the\nblack hole described is absorbtive, and thus large enough to have a low\ntemperature. In the context of black holes, there's actually not much\nmargin between the temperature of a stellar interior and that of outer\nspace. They are either colder or hotter than either, and those that\npersist are certainly colder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where is it described?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<36993376119B403B94E3CC56F6D369E9@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-30T18:21:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<4DE30770.3040403@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/29/2011 7:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think the issue of small black holes matters to BotNS - the\nblack hole described is absorbtive, and thus large enough to have a low\ntemperature. In the context of black holes, there's actually not much\nmargin between the temperature of a stellar interior and that of outer\nspace. They are either colder or hotter than either, and those that\npersist are certainly colder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where is it described?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Standard theory (you can find it in Wikipedia etc.) has the temperature of a \nblack hole inversely proportional to its mass. A solar mass black hole has \na temperature of about a ten millionth of a degree. An earth-mass black \nhole has a temperature of a fiftieth of a degree. A black hole massing a \nmillion tons would have a temperature of 10^14 K.\n\nIgnoring mass transfer, a black hole with a mass of a million million tons \nwould be in thermal equilibrium with the Sun's core, at a temperature of \n10^8 K. Such a black hole would have an event horizon only one micron in \ndiameter, so it wouldn't find it too easy to swallow a lot of matter.\n\nMultiply the mass by another factor of 200000, and the black hole is finally \nblack, with a temperature of 500 K, and a diameter of 20 cm.\n\nAny larger black hole would be colder and larger, both in proportion to its \nmass. I think we are to assume that the black hole in the Sun is cold and \nreasonably large. In truth it's hard to imagine that it would have the \neffects described in BotNS; I assume Wolfe is winging it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1FA299F467334EA3AB206557AEDF319A@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-30T18:36:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nNo dia 28/05/2011, ?s 19:42, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that they\ncan, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of course\nSol, etiolated by the black hole inside it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But we only have the narrator's word for it, and the narrator isnt \nomniscient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True enough... but in most Wolfe including all of the Solar Cycle, we \nonly have the narratopr's word for *everything*. One has to ask why he \nshould lie, or make a mistake? And if he hasn't seen the star, why \nshould he say it is visible, whereas if he has, why should he mistake a \nparticular star for Sol?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's reasonably obvious: he visited a red sun, he saw a red sun in \nthe sky, bingo, he thinks they're the same. That's just one possible \nexplanation which I find more plausible than a GW oversight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find it hard to see why he would pick on a particular red star." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think he either (1) didn't think of this point," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not in character." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree, it is not a very obvious point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(2) supports a 350-year chronology between Typhon and Severian," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Makes no sense to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hard to know. I don't think he does either, but then again 350 years is \nplenty time for a lot of autarchs. Overall I do think the Whorl was \nintended to travel relativistically, and the Urth time since launch is \nbetween 1000 and 2000 years, but I don't think 350 years is impossible (and \nit would solve the problem of why Typhon, with the energy to drive the Whorl \nrelativistically at his disposal, did not use a fraction of this energy to \nreplace the diminished heat of the Sun!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "or (3) thought it would be cool to have Sol visible even if the physics \ndoesn't work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...and thought to himself there would be no dearth of possible \nexplanations so let's do it. Mirrors? Folded space-time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's quite a dearth of explanations arising naturally out of the story! \nWe know of know sun-like stars that we just happen to see at twenty times \nthe distance they wuld normally be visible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I think Wolfe is quite happy to gloss over lots of dodgy science if it \nfits the story (realistically, it's obvious - leaving aside physics for \nthe moment, absorbing not just memories but *memories coordinated into a \npersonality* by eating corpses is obviously impossible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So we think, but then again it's not like we've much of a portfolio to \nshow as a species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that Wolfe knows this is not really possible but happily wrote it \nanyway. I think he strives for scientific versimilitude when he can, but \nsuch versimilitude is far from perfect. And why should it be - he is \nwriting science fiction stories, not science textbooks. If the science were \ncorrect readers could reasonably ask for their money back!.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE40CD3.4010609@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-30T21:32:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<36993376119B403B94E3CC56F6D369E9@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/30/2011 1:21 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/29/2011 7:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think the issue of small black holes matters to BotNS - the\nblack hole described is absorbtive, and thus large enough to have a low\ntemperature. In the context of black holes, there's actually not much\nmargin between the temperature of a stellar interior and that of outer\nspace. They are either colder or hotter than either, and those that\npersist are certainly colder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where is it described?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Standard theory (you can find it in Wikipedia etc.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean, where is the black hole described in BotNS? How is it \ncharacterized sufficiently to make those proceeding inferences?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of a black hole inversely proportional to its mass. A solar mass black\nhole has a temperature of about a ten millionth of a degree. An\nearth-mass black hole has a temperature of a fiftieth of a degree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something on the order of an earth-mass black hole with hand-sized even \nhorizon is what I had in mind. This would imply that the White Fountain \nwould be of a similar magnitude and why it would do such a job on Urth \nas it passed along." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In truth it's hard to imagine that it would have the effects\ndescribed\nin BotNS; I assume Wolfe is winging it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, of course. I'm just saying that a hypermass of a vague order of \nmagnitude can have effects that qualitatively resemble what's in the book." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE40EA4.6080909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-30T21:39:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<1FA299F467334EA3AB206557AEDF319A@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 5/30/2011 1:36 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSo we think, but then again it's not like we've much of a portfolio to\nshow as a species." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that Wolfe knows this is not really possible but happily wrote\nit anyway. I think he strives for scientific versimilitude when he can,\nbut such versimilitude is far from perfect. And why should it be - he is\nwriting science fiction stories, not science textbooks. If the science\nwere correct readers could reasonably ask for their money back!." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right on! Science fiction is so called because it appeals to the \nauthority of science to suspend disbelief. However, appeals to authority \naren't scientific, so science fiction inherently diverges from \nscientific accuracy. Ergo, accuracy in the science is nice but absolute \ncorrectness (another unscientific concept) is not required." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1045C5E2DDFC4762A5360615A8A1DCDF@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-30T23:23:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<4DE40CD3.4010609@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/30/2011 1:21 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/29/2011 7:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't think the issue of small black holes matters to BotNS - the\nblack hole described is absorbtive, and thus large enough to have a low\ntemperature. In the context of black holes, there's actually not much\nmargin between the temperature of a stellar interior and that of outer\nspace. They are either colder or hotter than either, and those that\npersist are certainly colder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where is it described?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Standard theory (you can find it in Wikipedia etc.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean, where is the black hole described in BotNS? How is it \ncharacterized sufficiently to make those proceeding inferences?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's described as black. That gives it a minimum mass of something like \n10^18 tons and a temperature under (say) 500 C. So it's not what we think \nof as a mini black hole, and it will last for billions of years (except \nmaybe if it interacts with a White Fountain)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "of a black hole inversely proportional to its mass. A solar mass black\nhole has a temperature of about a ten millionth of a degree. An\nearth-mass black hole has a temperature of a fiftieth of a degree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Something on the order of an earth-mass black hole with hand-sized even \nhorizon is what I had in mind. This would imply that the White Fountain \nwould be of a similar magnitude and why it would do such a job on Urth as \nit passed along." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In truth it's hard to imagine that it would have the effects\ndescribed\nin BotNS; I assume Wolfe is winging it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, of course. I'm just saying that a hypermass of a vague order of \nmagnitude can have effects that qualitatively resemble what's in the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I too think that it is supposed to be that size. Realistically I find it \nhard to imagine a black hole injected into the Sun doing anything other than \nage it prematurely, which will make it hotter, rather than colder. For the \npurposes of the story, I ignore that - and I would not expect the majority \nof readers to even have an opinion on the subject. My physics may be wrong \nor right, but even to have such an opinion I probably need to know more \nphysics than most. If one doesn't think about it too much, a cooling effect \nis plausible.\n\nAnd maybe, as David Stockhoff suggests, it is intended just to act like a \ndrain. Perhaps the Hieros can make it work that way.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE43834.90108@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T00:37:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants", "in_reply_to": "<1045C5E2DDFC4762A5360615A8A1DCDF@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/30/2011 6:23 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/30/2011 1:21 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 5/29/2011 7:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don't think the issue of small black holes matters to BotNS - the\nblack hole described is absorbtive, and thus large enough to have a\nlow\ntemperature. In the context of black holes, there's actually not much\nmargin between the temperature of a stellar interior and that of outer\nspace. They are either colder or hotter than either, and those that\npersist are certainly colder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Where is it described?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Standard theory (you can find it in Wikipedia etc.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I mean, where is the black hole described in BotNS? How is it\ncharacterized sufficiently to make those proceeding inferences?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's described as black." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And this description is to be found where?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE4F975.7040803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T14:21:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<1FA299F467334EA3AB206557AEDF319A@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (30-05-2011 19:36):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nNo dia 28/05/2011, ?s 19:42, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that they\ncan, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of course\nSol, etiolated by the black hole inside it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But we only have the narrator's word for it, and the narrator isnt\nomniscient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "True enough... but in most Wolfe including all of the Solar Cycle, we\nonly have the narratopr's word for *everything*. One has to ask why he\nshould lie, or make a mistake? And if he hasn't seen the star, why should\nhe say it is visible, whereas if he has, why should he mistake a\nparticular star for Sol?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it's reasonably obvious: he visited a red sun, he saw a red sun in\nthe sky, bingo, he thinks they're the same. That's just one possible\nexplanation which I find more plausible than a GW oversight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find it hard to see why he would pick on a particular red star." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How many are there, recognisably red, in his sky?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think he either (1) didn't think of this point," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not in character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree, it is not a very obvious point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find it obvious as can be in context." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(2) supports a 350-year chronology between Typhon and Severian," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Makes no sense to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hard to know. I don't think he does either, but then again 350 years is\nplenty time for a lot of autarchs. Overall I do think the Whorl was intended\nto travel relativistically, and the Urth time since launch is between 1000\nand 2000 years, but I don't think 350 years is impossible (and it would\nsolve the problem of why Typhon, with the energy to drive the Whorl\nrelativistically at his disposal, did not use a fraction of this energy to\nreplace the diminished heat of the Sun!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do find the relativistic speed of the Whorl troubling *if* it comes from \nthe Whorl's technology alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "or (3) thought it would be cool to have Sol visible even if the physics\ndoesn't work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...and thought to himself there would be no dearth of possible\nexplanations so let's do it. Mirrors? Folded space-time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's quite a dearth of explanations arising naturally out of the story!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the guy who thinks there's an obvious explanation in the story for \nApu Punchau's miracle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know of know sun-like stars that we just happen to see at twenty times\nthe distance they wuld normally be visible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I didn't get this sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think Wolfe is quite happy to gloss over lots of dodgy science if it\nfits the story (realistically, it's obvious - leaving aside physics for\nthe moment, absorbing not just memories but *memories coordinated into a\npersonality* by eating corpses is obviously impossible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So we think, but then again it's not like we've much of a portfolio to\nshow as a species." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that Wolfe knows this is not really possible" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But hoe do you know it isn't? Of course it isn't given our understanding of \nhow it works in our universe, but what have we got to show for ourselves \nthat gives us the authority to say 'this is impossible'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but happily wrote it\nanyway. I think he strives for scientific versimilitude when he can, but\nsuch versimilitude is far from perfect. And why should it be - he is writing\nscience fiction stories, not science textbooks. If the science were correct\nreaders could reasonably ask for their money back!." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The more so since correct science is something that hasn't been observed in \nthe wild." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-31T14:59:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE4F975.7040803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote (30-05-2011 19:36):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it's reasonably obvious: he visited a red sun, he saw a red sun \nin\nthe sky, bingo, he thinks they're the same. That's just one possible\nexplanation which I find more plausible than a GW oversight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it hard to see why he would pick on a particular red star." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How many are there, recognisably red, in his sky?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know. There are twenty or so dim red stars in our sky, but most are \nvariables. Still, even if there is only one, I don't see why he should \nassume that that particular star must be Sol without having some reason to \ndo so other than its colour. And why would Wolfe deliberately have him make \nthis mistake?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think he either (1) didn't think of this point," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not in character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I disagree, it is not a very obvious point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find it obvious as can be in context." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We must agree to differ then. I didn't think of it immediately at all. One \nhas to make a link between relativistic time dilation and the distance \ntravelled, which isn't the direct link usually made in popular accounts. I \ndon't remember anyone bringing the matter up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(2) supports a 350-year chronology between Typhon and Severian," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Makes no sense to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hard to know. I don't think he does either, but then again 350 years is\nplenty time for a lot of autarchs. Overall I do think the Whorl was \nintended\nto travel relativistically, and the Urth time since launch is between \n1000\nand 2000 years, but I don't think 350 years is impossible (and it would\nsolve the problem of why Typhon, with the energy to drive the Whorl\nrelativistically at his disposal, did not use a fraction of this energy \nto\nreplace the diminished heat of the Sun!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do find the relativistic speed of the Whorl troubling *if* it comes from \nthe Whorl's technology alone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where else would it come from? There's no indication that it was anything \nother than a personal propject of Typhon's. Besides, if he could have \ncalled in favours from aliens to build or drive it it, why could he not have \ndone the same with regard to building a modest orbital space heater? (Could \ndouble as a weapon, frying enemies like ants - Typhon would have loved it!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "or (3) thought it would be cool to have Sol visible even if the physics\ndoesn't work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...and thought to himself there would be no dearth of possible\nexplanations so let's do it. Mirrors? Folded space-time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's quite a dearth of explanations arising naturally out of the \nstory!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the guy who thinks there's an obvious explanation in the story for \nApu Punchau's miracle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't remember talking about Apu Punchau, or whatever this miracle is. \nBut anyway, if you can think of an obvious explanation, by all means let's \nhear it!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We know of know sun-like stars that we just happen to see at twenty times\nthe distance they wuld normally be visible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry, I didn't get this sentence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The second 'know' should have been 'no' (I don't no why I make such typos, \nbut I am often catching them!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think Wolfe is quite happy to gloss over lots of dodgy science if it\nfits the story (realistically, it's obvious - leaving aside physics for\nthe moment, absorbing not just memories but *memories coordinated into \na\npersonality* by eating corpses is obviously impossible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So we think, but then again it's not like we've much of a portfolio to\nshow as a species." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that Wolfe knows this is not really possible" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But hoe do you know it isn't? Of course it isn't given our understanding \nof how it works in our universe, but what have we got to show for \nourselves that gives us the authority to say 'this is impossible'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we can't say this is impossible, we know nothing at all, and I don't \naccept that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but happily wrote it\nanyway. I think he strives for scientific versimilitude when he can, but\nsuch versimilitude is far from perfect. And why should it be - he is \nwriting\nscience fiction stories, not science textbooks. If the science were \ncorrect\nreaders could reasonably ask for their money back!." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The more so since correct science is something that hasn't been observed \nin the wild." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. For example, I think \"Stars are distant suns\" is correct \nscience. They are not holes in a celestial sphere letting in the light of \nYesod, or candles held by floating angels, or some such alternative \nexplanation.\n\nWolfe has said various things like \"how do you know a godling cannot be 50 \nfeet tall, and just constructed differently from humans?\" And that is fair \nenough. Nevertheless, I think he misses or decides to ignore scientific \nfacts quite often when the story demands it. One example discussed some \ntime ago was the angular velocity of the Whorl and its effect on floaters. \nIt was generally accepted that these are incompatible with the size of the \nWhorl. But Wolfe wanted the Whorl to be big, and he was satisfied with \nscience that had the appearance of possible versimilitude (if that is not a \nredundant expression, but I think people will know what I mean). He doesn't \nwant anything to scream \"this is really impossible\", but I, at least, don't \nthink the visibility of Sol from Blue screams that, even if it is an \nunusually clear difficulty once one spots it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE50281.6070600@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-31T15:00:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE4F975.7040803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Moses made Jews wander 40 years through Sinai. If you take the shortest \nway, it is\nat most a few hundred kilometres. What makes you think that the Whorl had\ntaken the shortest path to its destination? It could very well go with \nrelativistic\nspeed and make a detour. It seems also that the plan might include that \nthe Whorl\nwill come back and repeople Urth (Ushas) after the floods etc. - in the end\nof the Short Sun cycle it is going to be repaired and travel again - to \ngo where?\nSome hints are also in the end of \"The Urth of the New Sun\".\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote (30-05-2011 19:36):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nNo dia 28/05/2011, ?s 19:42, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that \nthey\ncan, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of \ncourse\nSol, etiolated by the black hole inside it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "But we only have the narrator's word for it, and the narrator isnt\nomniscient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "True enough... but in most Wolfe including all of the Solar Cycle, we\nonly have the narratopr's word for *everything*. One has to ask why he\nshould lie, or make a mistake? And if he hasn't seen the star, why \nshould\nhe say it is visible, whereas if he has, why should he mistake a\nparticular star for Sol?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it's reasonably obvious: he visited a red sun, he saw a red \nsun in\nthe sky, bingo, he thinks they're the same. That's just one possible\nexplanation which I find more plausible than a GW oversight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it hard to see why he would pick on a particular red star." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How many are there, recognisably red, in his sky?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think he either (1) didn't think of this point," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not in character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I disagree, it is not a very obvious point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find it obvious as can be in context." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "(2) supports a 350-year chronology between Typhon and Severian," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Makes no sense to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hard to know. I don't think he does either, but then again 350 years is\nplenty time for a lot of autarchs. Overall I do think the Whorl was \nintended\nto travel relativistically, and the Urth time since launch is between \n1000\nand 2000 years, but I don't think 350 years is impossible (and it would\nsolve the problem of why Typhon, with the energy to drive the Whorl\nrelativistically at his disposal, did not use a fraction of this \nenergy to\nreplace the diminished heat of the Sun!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do find the relativistic speed of the Whorl troubling *if* it comes \nfrom the Whorl's technology alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "or (3) thought it would be cool to have Sol visible even if the \nphysics\ndoesn't work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...and thought to himself there would be no dearth of possible\nexplanations so let's do it. Mirrors? Folded space-time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's quite a dearth of explanations arising naturally out of the \nstory!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the guy who thinks there's an obvious explanation in the story \nfor Apu Punchau's miracle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We know of know sun-like stars that we just happen to see at twenty \ntimes\nthe distance they wuld normally be visible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry, I didn't get this sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think Wolfe is quite happy to gloss over lots of dodgy science if it\nfits the story (realistically, it's obvious - leaving aside physics \nfor\nthe moment, absorbing not just memories but *memories coordinated \ninto a\npersonality* by eating corpses is obviously impossible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So we think, but then again it's not like we've much of a portfolio to\nshow as a species." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that Wolfe knows this is not really possible" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But hoe do you know it isn't? Of course it isn't given our \nunderstanding of how it works in our universe, but what have we got to \nshow for ourselves that gives us the authority to say 'this is \nimpossible'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but happily wrote it\nanyway. I think he strives for scientific versimilitude when he can, but\nsuch versimilitude is far from perfect. And why should it be - he is \nwriting\nscience fiction stories, not science textbooks. If the science were \ncorrect\nreaders could reasonably ask for their money back!." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The more so since correct science is something that hasn't been \nobserved in the wild.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE509AA.90501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T15:30:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE50281.6070600@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the only the Rajan could see the light of Sol's sun. He was only \nasking the others to imagine it. Perhaps he wasn't seeing it with human \neyes. Just sayin'.\n\nThere was a discussion on this list between Mantis and (I think) Jerry \nFriedman some years ago about the distance between Urth and Blue based \non 350 years of travel, 500 years of travel, 1000 years of travel.\n\nDon't we know (based on the vase Lemur destroyed) that they've been in \ntransport for just over 500 years? Assuming this all occurs during the \ntime of Severian's childhood., that just suggests an overall time \ndilation of 2, right? That's fast, mind-blowingly fast, but not \nimpossibly fast.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE5102C.6020707@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T15:58:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/31/2011 9:59 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nI do find the relativistic speed of the Whorl troubling *if* it comes\nfrom the Whorl's technology alone.\n\nWhere else would it come from? There's no indication that it was\nanything other than a personal propject of Typhon's. Besides, if he\ncould have called in favours from aliens to build or drive it it, why\ncould he not have done the same with regard to building a modest orbital\nspace heater? (Could double as a weapon, frying enemies like ants -\nTyphon would have loved it!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the reason why I asked about evidence that the Whorl was all \nTyphon's doing some time ago. If some salvageable stellar technology was \ninvolved, that could explain a lot about the Whorl and perhaps about \nJonas' missing port. Spare engines and other gear looted from an orbital \ndock could make the Whorl go relativistic on their own virtues without \nthe energy being available for warming Urth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<338FE273BF55421DAA98943A6330B0E0@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-31T17:33:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE50281.6070600@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Sergei SOLOVIEV\" \nMoses made Jews wander 40 years through Sinai. If you take the shortest \nway, it is\nat most a few hundred kilometres. What makes you think that the Whorl had\ntaken the shortest path to its destination? It could very well go with \nrelativistic\nspeed and make a detour. It seems also that the plan might include that \nthe Whorl\nwill come back and repeople Urth (Ushas) after the floods etc. - in the \nend\nof the Short Sun cycle it is going to be repaired and travel again - to go \nwhere?\nSome hints are also in the end of \"The Urth of the New Sun\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not easy to turn a relativistic asteroid! And it doesn't seem like \nthey stopped anywhere en route, so why waste all that energy?\n\nIf Typhon wanted to repopulate Urth at a later time (but he says nothing of \nany such plan when he meets Severian in BotNS) he could have put sleepers on \nLune or something. But anyway he had no reason to make any such plan.\n\nMy impression is that the Whorl is intended to be repaired and explore \nfurther among the stars. Perhaps that was the original plan, derailed by \nthe death of Pas.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484B197D1F2B48ADA4873A4B5697FE91@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-31T17:39:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE509AA.90501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nPerhaps the only the Rajan could see the light of Sol's sun. He was only \nasking the others to imagine it. Perhaps he wasn't seeing it with human \neyes. Just sayin'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He says it will be visible to everyone.\n\"Soon it will be evening,\" he said. \"If we still haven't gone, we'll go up \nonto the roof of this house. Standing on the tiles I will point and you will \npeer until at last you see a certain dim red star. It's a long, long way \nfrom here. Think of it now, the sky like black velvet strewn with diamonds \nin the bottom of a grave, and among the diamonds a minute drop of blood.\n\n[The grave imagery echoes Silk's dream early in BotLS.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There was a discussion on this list between Mantis and (I think) Jerry \nFriedman some years ago about the distance between Urth and Blue based on \n350 years of travel, 500 years of travel, 1000 years of travel.\n\nDon't we know (based on the vase Lemur destroyed) that they've been in \ntransport for just over 500 years? Assuming this all occurs during the \ntime of Severian's childhood., that just suggests an overall time dilation \nof 2, right? That's fast, mind-blowingly fast, but not impossibly fast." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there is a fair amount of text suggesting that the journey took in \nthe region of 300 years subjective. I assume the vase was already old when \nit was brought aboard.\n\nTime dilation factor of 2 or 6, I'm not sure it matters all that much. The \nenergy needed is equal to the Whorl's mass multiplied by the time dilation, \nand in either case is enormous!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE5338E.9000803@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-05-31T18:29:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<484B197D1F2B48ADA4873A4B5697FE91@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the way, I don't remember any mention of a fuel used by landers. They\ndepend for AI part on \"cards\" (much like chips nowadays) but... Does\nany of the personages say/ask/wonder about that? Also, how does the Long \nSun work?\n(The description makes me think about some fusion technology,\nbut I don't think there are any clear indications. And I think that no form\nof fusion can provide sufficient energy to accelerate Whorl to near-light\nspeed. Roughly, fusion converts about 1% of mass into energy, and the\nmass of an accelerated body grows - very roughly, if the mass grows\ntwice, you have to spend at least an equivalent of this mass in energy.\nThis with very high efficiency, not as our chemical rockets.\nSimilar for braking. Antimatter? In the beginning of this voyage Whorl \nhad to have\nabout half of its mass in stored antimatter? Gamma-rays if it annihilates\nin the Long Sun?)\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps the only the Rajan could see the light of Sol's sun. He was \nonly asking the others to imagine it. Perhaps he wasn't seeing it \nwith human eyes. Just sayin'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He says it will be visible to everyone.\n\"Soon it will be evening,\" he said. \"If we still haven't gone, we'll \ngo up onto the roof of this house. Standing on the tiles I will point \nand you will peer until at last you see a certain dim red star. It's a \nlong, long way from here. Think of it now, the sky like black velvet \nstrewn with diamonds in the bottom of a grave, and among the diamonds \na minute drop of blood.\n\n[The grave imagery echoes Silk's dream early in BotLS.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There was a discussion on this list between Mantis and (I think) \nJerry Friedman some years ago about the distance between Urth and \nBlue based on 350 years of travel, 500 years of travel, 1000 years of \ntravel.\n\nDon't we know (based on the vase Lemur destroyed) that they've been \nin transport for just over 500 years? Assuming this all occurs during \nthe time of Severian's childhood., that just suggests an overall time \ndilation of 2, right? That's fast, mind-blowingly fast, but not \nimpossibly fast." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there is a fair amount of text suggesting that the journey \ntook in the region of 300 years subjective. I assume the vase was \nalready old when it was brought aboard.\n\nTime dilation factor of 2 or 6, I'm not sure it matters all that \nmuch. The energy needed is equal to the Whorl's mass multiplied by \nthe time dilation, and in either case is enormous!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T18:34:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE5338E.9000803@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n(The description makes me think about some fusion technology,\nbut I don't think there are any clear indications." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect the landers do use fusion technology, but we really don't know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I think that no form\nof fusion can provide sufficient energy to accelerate Whorl to near-light\nspeed. Roughly, fusion converts about 1% of mass into energy, and the\nmass of an accelerated body grows - very roughly, if the mass grows\ntwice, you have to spend at least an equivalent of this mass in energy.\nThis with very high efficiency, not as our chemical rockets.\nSimilar for braking. Antimatter? In the beginning of this voyage Whorl had\nto have\nabout half of its mass in stored antimatter? Gamma-rays if it annihilates\nin the Long Sun?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe the Long Sun is powered by Illudium Fosdex." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE55CA4.2060803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T21:24:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote (30-05-2011 19:36):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nI think it's reasonably obvious: he visited a red sun, he saw a red\nsun in\nthe sky, bingo, he thinks they're the same. That's just one possible\nexplanation which I find more plausible than a GW oversight.\n\nI find it hard to see why he would pick on a particular red star." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How many are there, recognisably red, in his sky?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know. There are twenty or so dim red stars in our sky, but most\nare variables. Still, even if there is only one, I don't see why he\nshould assume that that particular star must be Sol without having some\nreason to do so other than its colour. And why would Wolfe deliberately\nhave him make this mistake?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was my impression he makes a very similar mistake (in structure) \nsomewhere else, but I can't put my finger on it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think he either (1) didn't think of this point," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Not in character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I disagree, it is not a very obvious point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it obvious as can be in context." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We must agree to differ then. I didn't think of it immediately at all.\nOne has to make a link between relativistic time dilation and the\ndistance travelled, which isn't the direct link usually made in popular\naccounts. I don't remember anyone bringing the matter up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was even discussed recently. Not to take anything away from you, \nbut those familiar with astronomy - I'm not - would probably see it at once. \nThat's why I find it so strange that GW would overlook it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do find the relativistic speed of the Whorl troubling *if* it comes\nfrom the Whorl's technology alone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where else would it come from? There's no indication that it was\nanything other than a personal propject of Typhon's. Besides, if he\ncould have called in favours from aliens to build or drive it it, why\ncould he not have done the same with regard to building a modest orbital\nspace heater? (Could double as a weapon, frying enemies like ants -\nTyphon would have loved it!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I meant the relativistic voyage could be something for which the Whorl \nhad only provided the ignition, but was then maintained by exploiting some \ntrick of space-time or something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "or (3) thought it would be cool to have Sol visible even if the\nphysics\ndoesn't work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "...and thought to himself there would be no dearth of possible\nexplanations so let's do it. Mirrors? Folded space-time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's quite a dearth of explanations arising naturally out of the\nstory!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is the guy who thinks there's an obvious explanation in the story\nfor Apu Punchau's miracle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't remember talking about Apu Punchau, or whatever this miracle is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The 'guy' I meant was GW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But anyway, if you can think of an obvious explanation, by all means\nlet's hear it!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For instance, I find Sergei's speculation - that the Whorl didn't go \nstraight to Green/Blue, which doesn't mean it stopped along the way - just \nan example of how our assumptions may be too simple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We know of know sun-like stars that we just happen to see at twenty\ntimes\nthe distance they wuld normally be visible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sorry, I didn't get this sentence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The second 'know' should have been 'no' (I don't no why I make such\ntypos, but I am often catching them!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok. I meant there was nothing stopping us finding explanations that don't \ninvolve violating science but we just don't have the imagination to do it. \nIt's not unlike the Gordian Knot. '- Oh, no, Alex can't have untied the knot \nbecause science tells us it can't be untied.' '- Uh, he cut it.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think Wolfe is quite happy to gloss over lots of dodgy science if it\nfits the story (realistically, it's obvious - leaving aside physics\nfor\nthe moment, absorbing not just memories but *memories coordinated\ninto a\npersonality* by eating corpses is obviously impossible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So we think, but then again it's not like we've much of a portfolio to\nshow as a species." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that Wolfe knows this is not really possible" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But hoe do you know it isn't? Of course it isn't given our\nunderstanding of how it works in our universe, but what have we got to\nshow for ourselves that gives us the authority to say 'this is\nimpossible'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we can't say this is impossible, we know nothing at all, and I don't\naccept that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. We can say red blood cells aren't miniature firemen. What we can say \nabout memories or personality is much weaker." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "but happily wrote it\nanyway. I think he strives for scientific versimilitude when he can, but\nsuch versimilitude is far from perfect. And why should it be - he is\nwriting\nscience fiction stories, not science textbooks. If the science were\ncorrect\nreaders could reasonably ask for their money back!." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The more so since correct science is something that hasn't been\nobserved in the wild." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree. For example, I think \"Stars are distant suns\" is correct\nscience. They are not holes in a celestial sphere letting in the light\nof Yesod, or candles held by floating angels, or some such alternative\nexplanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Stars are distant suns' was science once, nowadays it's data as it can be \ndirectly observed. It's being data that makes it 'correct'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe has said various things like \"how do you know a godling cannot be\n50 feet tall, and just constructed differently from humans?\" And that is\nfair enough. Nevertheless, I think he misses or decides to ignore\nscientific facts quite often when the story demands it. One example\ndiscussed some time ago was the angular velocity of the Whorl and its\neffect on floaters. It was generally accepted that these are\nincompatible with the size of the Whorl. But Wolfe wanted the Whorl to\nbe big, and he was satisfied with science that had the appearance of\npossible versimilitude (if that is not a redundant expression, but I\nthink people will know what I mean). He doesn't want anything to scream\n\"this is really impossible\", but I, at least, don't think the visibility\nof Sol from Blue screams that, even if it is an unusually clear\ndifficulty once one spots it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I think he goes to great lengths not to contradict basic science, \nwhich I think that's how it should be. It appears our only difference is in \njudging the importance of this specific detail. But even we agree that there \nis little one can conclude, story-wise, from it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE56123.206@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T21:44:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE55CA4.2060803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/31/2011 4:24 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote (30-05-2011 19:36):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nor (3) thought it would be cool to have Sol visible even if the\nphysics\ndoesn't work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "...and thought to himself there would be no dearth of possible\nexplanations so let's do it. Mirrors? Folded space-time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There's quite a dearth of explanations arising naturally out of the\nstory!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is the guy who thinks there's an obvious explanation in the story\nfor Apu Punchau's miracle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't remember talking about Apu Punchau, or whatever this miracle is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The 'guy' I meant was GW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there anyone here who is still puzzled as to how Sev was able to \nwithold the rising sun, then restore it? It wasn't obvious to me before, \nbut it is obvious in retrospect, the way a good mystery \"should.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T22:03:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE56123.206@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei Soloviev wrote:\n\n. It seems also that the plan might include that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Whorl\nwill come back and repeople Urth (Ushas) after the floods etc. - in the end\nof the Short Sun cycle it is going to be repaired and travel again - to\ngo where?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Typhon knew about the floods when he started the Whorl\nproject - they seem to have been revealed by Severian in the last year\nof his (Typhon's) reign." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some hints are also in the end of \"The Urth of the New Sun\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you thinking of the people landed from the sky? It seems as if\nthey come from Tzadkiel's ship - the line in question is certainly\ncryptic, but I can't see what it could mean if they didn't. And in any\ncase, I don't think Wolfe knew about the Whorl when he wrote _Urth_ -\ndidn't he say that it was only while he was working on _Long Sun_ that\nhe realised it was about Typhon? Which would imply that it wasn't part\nof his original plan for Urth.\n\nI wouldn't rule out the possibility that the Whorl is, at the end,\nreturning to Urth - but if so, I don't think it's part of the original\nplan, Typhon's or Wolfe's." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-06-01T00:36:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<484B197D1F2B48ADA4873A4B5697FE91@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 31 May 2011, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI think there is a fair amount of text suggesting that the journey took in \nthe region of 300 years subjective. I assume the vase was already old when \nit was brought aboard.\n\nTime dilation factor of 2 or 6, I'm not sure it matters all that much. The \nenergy needed is equal to the Whorl's mass multiplied by the time dilation, \nand in either case is enormous!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't remember what evidence we have that the Whorl travelled at \nrelativistic speeds. If not, then a trip of 50-70 light years [rough \nlimit of visibility since we don't know the absolute magnitude of the \ndimmed sun] at 0.1 c...\n\nCHeers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<509C344827624E9187F3D83B9B0265E8@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-06-01T14:49:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Duffy\" \nOn Tue, 31 May 2011, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there is a fair amount of text suggesting that the journey took \nin the region of 300 years subjective. I assume the vase was already old \nwhen it was brought aboard.\n\nTime dilation factor of 2 or 6, I'm not sure it matters all that much. \nThe energy needed is equal to the Whorl's mass multiplied by the time \ndilation, and in either case is enormous!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't remember what evidence we have that the Whorl travelled at \nrelativistic speeds. If not, then a trip of 50-70 light years [rough \nlimit of visibility since we don't know the absolute magnitude of the \ndimmed sun] at 0.1 c..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only evidence that it travelled at relativistic speeds is the seemingly \ngreater passage of time on Urth since the launch. In BotNS, Severian gives \nthe impression that Typhon lived at least 1000 years ago (though it's a bit \nvague, and people of that era are vague about time anyway). In the Short \nSun trilogy, Rigoglio also gives us the impression that much longer than 350 \nyears has passed at Nessus - it feels like up to 2000 years.\n\nI would argue that one possible reading is indeed that only 350 years passed \non Urth - that is time for a lot of history, and nobody really comes out and \ngives an exact time except maybe Cyriaca says 'chiliads' once. But on Urth \nmaybe they say 'chiliads' like we say 'yonks'. This would solve a couple of \nphysics issues.\n\nI don't really believe the 350 year reading, though, I think Wolfe winged \nthe physics and that the red star being visible was a mistake.\n\nI suppose one could even hypothesise that the dream travellers go to the \nfuture and come back, but there's no obvious reason why that should happen.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE654D6.1090002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-01T15:03:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<509C344827624E9187F3D83B9B0265E8@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (01-06-2011 15:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Duffy\" \nOn Tue, 31 May 2011, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think there is a fair amount of text suggesting that the journey took\nin the region of 300 years subjective. I assume the vase was already old\nwhen it was brought aboard.\n\nTime dilation factor of 2 or 6, I'm not sure it matters all that much.\nThe energy needed is equal to the Whorl's mass multiplied by the time\ndilation, and in either case is enormous!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't remember what evidence we have that the Whorl travelled at\nrelativistic speeds. If not, then a trip of 50-70 light years [rough limit\nof visibility since we don't know the absolute magnitude of the dimmed\nsun] at 0.1 c..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only evidence that it travelled at relativistic speeds is the seemingly\ngreater passage of time on Urth since the launch. In BotNS, Severian gives\nthe impression that Typhon lived at least 1000 years ago (though it's a bit\nvague, and people of that era are vague about time anyway). In the Short Sun\ntrilogy, Rigoglio also gives us the impression that much longer than 350\nyears has passed at Nessus - it feels like up to 2000 years.\n\nI would argue that one possible reading is indeed that only 350 years passed\non Urth - that is time for a lot of history, and nobody really comes out and\ngives an exact time except maybe Cyriaca says 'chiliads' once. But on Urth\nmaybe they say 'chiliads' like we say 'yonks'. This would solve a couple of\nphysics issues.\n\nI don't really believe the 350 year reading, though, I think Wolfe winged\nthe physics and that the red star being visible was a mistake.\n\nI suppose one could even hypothesise that the dream travellers go to the\nfuture and come back, but there's no obvious reason why that should happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can the speed of time, if such a thing exists, be slower the more one goes \nfrom Urth to Blue? (Independently of gravity, of course(?); I'm not talking \nabout classical relativity but some workable disuniformity of the speed of \ntime across the universe.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-06-01T15:12:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE654D6.1090002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nCan the speed of time, if such a thing exists, be slower the more one goes \nfrom Urth to Blue? (Independently of gravity, of course(?); I'm not \ntalking about classical relativity but some workable disuniformity of the \nspeed of time across the universe.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anything is possible in SF. But it begs the question of why the evolution \nof stars seems to progress at the same rate everywhere!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE65979.90901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-01T15:23:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (01-06-2011 16:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nCan the speed of time, if such a thing exists, be slower the more one goes\nfrom Urth to Blue? (Independently of gravity, of course(?); I'm not\ntalking about classical relativity but some workable disuniformity of the\nspeed of time across the universe.)\n\nAnything is possible in SF." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Workable', come on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But it begs the question of why the evolution of\nstars seems to progress at the same rate everywhere!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or does it raise it?\nBut now, seriously speaking, is it really so firmly established that, say, \nthe evolution of stars seems to progress at the same rate everywhere? I \ndon't know, I'm asking. Last minimally serious readings I did on \nastrophysics were in the very early '90s. I'm not sure the question of \nuniformity of Physics across the universe (barring singularities) was \nsettled by then." } ] }, { "message_id": "<68A2B0367EF841688037353B782A2290@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-06-01T16:27:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE65979.90901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote (01-06-2011 16:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Can the speed of time, if such a thing exists, be slower the more one \ngoes\nfrom Urth to Blue? (Independently of gravity, of course(?); I'm not\ntalking about classical relativity but some workable disuniformity of \nthe\nspeed of time across the universe.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anything is possible in SF." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Workable', come on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But it begs the question of why the evolution of\nstars seems to progress at the same rate everywhere!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or does it raise it?\nBut now, seriously speaking, is it really so firmly established that, say, \nthe evolution of stars seems to progress at the same rate everywhere? I \ndon't know, I'm asking. Last minimally serious readings I did on \nastrophysics were in the very early '90s. I'm not sure the question of \nuniformity of Physics across the universe (barring singularities) was \nsettled by then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's still not settled. But here we have the situation of visible stars \nthat are a very short distance away and in the same galactic milieu. If \ntime were going 2-6 times slower for regions 100 light years away, wouldn't \nwe notice considerable anomalies in the ages of stars and star clusters, the \ndistribution of metals etc.\n\nThere are also questions of simple mechanics. Wouldn't such an effect \ndisrupt galactic rotation, and perhaps other effects such as doppler and \ngravitational red shifts from moving gas jets etc.\n\nWe are talking about distances that are small in relation to a galaxy - how \ndoes galactic formation change is time progresses at radically different \nrates at arbitrary regions? And if the regions don't move with the galaxy, \nshouldn't we see interesting effects at the interfaces? It's a whole new SF \nnovel in itself!\n\nOf course Vernor Vinge made radical speculations abuout the speed of light \nas a function of distance from the centre of the galaxy in _A Fire Upon The \nDeep_, and nobody called him on the astrophysics. But that's because it's \nscience fiction, not science. We don't need to nitpick such issues, IMO.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE66919.2060009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-01T16:30:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<68A2B0367EF841688037353B782A2290@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (01-06-2011 17:27):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nLast minimally serious readings I did on astrophysics were in the very\nearly '90s. I'm not sure the question of uniformity of Physics across\nthe universe (barring singularities) was settled by then.\n\nIt's still not settled. But here we have the situation of visible stars\nthat are a very short distance away and in the same galactic milieu." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "D'oh. Good point." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-01T16:59:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<68A2B0367EF841688037353B782A2290@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nOf course Vernor Vinge made radical speculations abuout the speed of light\nas a ?function of distance from the centre of the galaxy in _A Fire Upon The\nDeep_, and nobody called him on the astrophysics. ?But that's because it's\nscience fiction, not science. ?We don't need to nitpick such issues, IMO." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You haven't hung around with SF fans very much, I take it.\n\nLet me assure you that if there is any scientific wonkiness in an SF\nstory, there will be someone (quite possibly someone with Asperger's\nSyndrome*) who will jump up at the author's next convention apperance\nand whine, \"But it doesn't _work_ that way!\"\n\n* Not that I'm denigrating those with AS; I have a nephew and many\nfriends at varying points on the autism spectrum." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-01T18:33:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote: > The only evidence that it travelled at\nrelativistic speeds is the seemingly" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "greater passage of time on Urth since the launch. ?In BotNS, Severian gives\nthe impression that Typhon lived at least 1000 years ago (though it's a bit\nvague, and people of that era are vague about time anyway). ?In the Short\nSun trilogy, Rigoglio also gives us the impression that much longer than 350\nyears has passed at Nessus - it feels like up to 2000 years.\n\nI would argue that one possible reading is indeed that only 350 years passed\non Urth - that is time for a lot of history, and nobody really comes out and\ngives an exact time except maybe Cyriaca says 'chiliads' once. ?But on Urth\nmaybe they say 'chiliads' like we say 'yonks'. ?This would solve a couple of\nphysics issues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is actually one other way of reading it; suppose that Marble is\nright when she says the decimal point has been misplaced, and the\nWhorl has actually been travelling for 3000 years. That way we can\novercome a lot of problems - the Whorl has moved relatively slowly,\nand has gone a relatively short distance from Urth; time has passed at\nthe same rate on Urth and on the Whorl, and there are 3000 years\nbetween Typhon and Severian, which looks fairly plausible.\n\nI don't actually believe this, because I can't see any reason why\neveryone else on the Whorl would be mistaken. But it's a weird\npassage, which it would be nice to accommodate in some way." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE69912.3000801@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-06-01T19:54:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/1/2011 11:59 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course Vernor Vinge made radical speculations abuout the speed of light\nas a function of distance from the centre of the galaxy in _A Fire Upon The\nDeep_, and nobody called him on the astrophysics. But that's because it's\nscience fiction, not science. We don't need to nitpick such issues, IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You haven't hung around with SF fans very much, I take it.\n\nLet me assure you that if there is any scientific wonkiness in an SF\nstory, there will be someone (quite possibly someone with Asperger's\nSyndrome*) who will jump up at the author's next convention apperance\nand whine, \"But it doesn't _work_ that way!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It really doesn't work that way; that is, the _speed_ of light doesn't \nparticularly change in Vinge's book, but the radical speculative means \nof transcending it do. Literal observational astrophysics remains \nlargely in tact , which is why the On-Off Star is such a big deal in the \nsecond book." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE7CAA4.4010200@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-06-02T17:38:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<338FE273BF55421DAA98943A6330B0E0@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I made some computations (simplified) and it seems to me that indeed\nGW does not pay too much attention either to physics or to chronology. \nVery roughly,\nwith constant acceleration of 1 m/sec^2 it is needed about 50 years to get\nto relativistic speed, and the same to slow down. But for the hollow\nasteroid such as Whorl where inside you have lakes etc, 1 m/sec^2\nis already too much - if its rotation imitates ordinary gravity near Viron,\nthe effect will be as if the flatland near the city becomes inclined \nabout 10%.\nWhat will become to all liquids? Buildings? What will happen near the poles?\nThe point is, I think, that we should be not very critical to technical \ndetails\nbecause the \"convention\" (between the author and the reader) is not\nvery rigorous.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Sergei SOLOVIEV\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Moses made Jews wander 40 years through Sinai. If you take the \nshortest way, it is\nat most a few hundred kilometres. What makes you think that the Whorl \nhad\ntaken the shortest path to its destination? It could very well go \nwith relativistic\nspeed and make a detour. It seems also that the plan might include \nthat the Whorl\nwill come back and repeople Urth (Ushas) after the floods etc. - in \nthe end\nof the Short Sun cycle it is going to be repaired and travel again - \nto go where?\nSome hints are also in the end of \"The Urth of the New Sun\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not easy to turn a relativistic asteroid! And it doesn't seem \nlike they stopped anywhere en route, so why waste all that energy?\n\nIf Typhon wanted to repopulate Urth at a later time (but he says \nnothing of any such plan when he meets Severian in BotNS) he could \nhave put sleepers on Lune or something. But anyway he had no reason \nto make any such plan.\n\nMy impression is that the Whorl is intended to be repaired and explore \nfurther among the stars. Perhaps that was the original plan, derailed \nby the death of Pas.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T18:07:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE7CAA4.4010200@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here are some comments of the speed of the Whorl:\n\n 1\n\nYou have to travel very fast to get to any stars because of their great\ndistance. To reach even the closest star in 300 years, you\n\n\n would need a speed of about 1.5% of light (10,000,000 MPH)\n\n2\n\nIt would take an enormous amount of energy to accelerate as massive an\nobject as the Whorl to even 1.5% light speed.\n\n\n We don't know where this energy would come from.\n\n3\n\nA travel speed close to the speed of light would explain why only 300 years\nhave elapsed on the Whorl while 1000 to 2000 years (a chiliad or 2) have\ngone by on Urth\n\n\n At 95% of speed of light, Whorl time would be 300 years for 1000 Urth\nyears.\n\n\n At 99% of speed of light, Whorl time would be 300 years for 2000 Urth years\n\n4\n\nOf course, it's more complicated than that. You have to accelerate the\nship up to a high speed, and then decelerate to stop at Blue-Green system.\n\n\n The rate of acceleration has to be slow, or the cargo would be pressed\nagainst the back of the ship.\n\n\n Acceleration would have to be very low. At an acceleration of 1/100 G,\nit would take about 97 years to get up to about speed of light.\n\n\n You could then coast for 100 years, and then decelerate for 97 years,\nmaking a total time of about 300 years ship time.\n\n5\n\nI'm not at all sure that Gene Wolfe made any exact calculations. It seems\nto me more likely that he just relied on time slowing down at speeds close\nto the speed of light." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI made some computations (simplified) and it seems to me that indeed\nGW does not pay too much attention either to physics or to chronology. Very\nroughly,\nwith constant acceleration of 1 m/sec^2 it is needed about 50 years to get\nto relativistic speed, and the same to slow down. But for the hollow\nasteroid such as Whorl where inside you have lakes etc, 1 m/sec^2\nis already too much - if its rotation imitates ordinary gravity near Viron,\nthe effect will be as if the flatland near the city becomes inclined about\n10%.\nWhat will become to all liquids? Buildings? What will happen near the\npoles?\nThe point is, I think, that we should be not very critical to technical\ndetails\nbecause the \"convention\" (between the author and the reader) is not\nvery rigorous.\n\nSergei\n\n\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Sergei SOLOVIEV\" \n\n\n Moses made Jews wander 40 years through Sinai. If you take the shortest\nway, it is\nat most a few hundred kilometres. What makes you think that the Whorl had\ntaken the shortest path to its destination? It could very well go with\nrelativistic\nspeed and make a detour. It seems also that the plan might include that\nthe Whorl\nwill come back and repeople Urth (Ushas) after the floods etc. - in the\nend\nof the Short Sun cycle it is going to be repaired and travel again - to\ngo where?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some hints are also in the end of \"The Urth of the New Sun\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's not easy to turn a relativistic asteroid! And it doesn't seem like\nthey stopped anywhere en route, so why waste all that energy?\n\nIf Typhon wanted to repopulate Urth at a later time (but he says nothing\nof any such plan when he meets Severian in BotNS) he could have put sleepers\non Lune or something. But anyway he had no reason to make any such plan.\n\nMy impression is that the Whorl is intended to be repaired and explore\nfurther among the stars. Perhaps that was the original plan, derailed by\nthe death of Pas.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T18:14:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I copied most of this from an Excel file, and the formatting came out a\nlittle off. I meant to say, \"A travel speed close to the speed of light\nwould explain why only 300 years have elapsed on the Whorl while 1000 to\n2000 years (a chiliad or 2) have gone by on Urth.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nHere are some comments of the speed of the Whorl:\n\n 1\n\nYou have to travel very fast to get to any stars because of their great\ndistance. To reach even the closest star in 300 years, you\n\n\n would need a speed of about 1.5% of light (10,000,000 MPH)\n\n2\n\nIt would take an enormous amount of energy to accelerate as massive an\nobject as the Whorl to even 1.5% light speed.\n\n\n We don't know where this energy would come from.\n\n3\n\nA travel speed close to the speed of light would explain why only 300 years\nhave elapsed on the Whorl while 1000 to 2000 years (a chiliad or 2) have\ngone by on Urth\n\n\n At 95% of speed of light, Whorl time would be 300 years for 1000 Urth\nyears.\n\n\n At 99% of speed of light, Whorl time would be 300 years for 2000 Urth\nyears\n\n4\n\nOf course, it's more complicated than that. You have to accelerate the\nship up to a high speed, and then decelerate to stop at Blue-Green system.\n\n\n The rate of acceleration has to be slow, or the cargo would be pressed\nagainst the back of the ship.\n\n\n Acceleration would have to be very low. At an acceleration of 1/100\nG, it would take about 97 years to get up to about speed of light.\n\n\n You could then coast for 100 years, and then decelerate for 97 years,\nmaking a total time of about 300 years ship time.\n\n5\n\nI'm not at all sure that Gene Wolfe made any exact calculations. It seems\nto me more likely that he just relied on time slowing down at speeds close\nto the speed of light.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I made some computations (simplified) and it seems to me that indeed\nGW does not pay too much attention either to physics or to chronology.\nVery roughly,\nwith constant acceleration of 1 m/sec^2 it is needed about 50 years to get\nto relativistic speed, and the same to slow down. But for the hollow\nasteroid such as Whorl where inside you have lakes etc, 1 m/sec^2\nis already too much - if its rotation imitates ordinary gravity near\nViron,\nthe effect will be as if the flatland near the city becomes inclined about\n10%.\nWhat will become to all liquids? Buildings? What will happen near the\npoles?\nThe point is, I think, that we should be not very critical to technical\ndetails\nbecause the \"convention\" (between the author and the reader) is not\nvery rigorous.\n\nSergei\n\n\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Sergei SOLOVIEV\" \n\n\n Moses made Jews wander 40 years through Sinai. If you take the shortest\nway, it is\nat most a few hundred kilometres. What makes you think that the Whorl\nhad\ntaken the shortest path to its destination? It could very well go with\nrelativistic\nspeed and make a detour. It seems also that the plan might include that\nthe Whorl\nwill come back and repeople Urth (Ushas) after the floods etc. - in the\nend\nof the Short Sun cycle it is going to be repaired and travel again - to\ngo where?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Some hints are also in the end of \"The Urth of the New Sun\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's not easy to turn a relativistic asteroid! And it doesn't seem like\nthey stopped anywhere en route, so why waste all that energy?\n\nIf Typhon wanted to repopulate Urth at a later time (but he says nothing\nof any such plan when he meets Severian in BotNS) he could have put sleepers\non Lune or something. But anyway he had no reason to make any such plan.\n\nMy impression is that the Whorl is intended to be repaired and explore\nfurther among the stars. Perhaps that was the original plan, derailed by\nthe death of Pas.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE7E4B3.5030706@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T19:29:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE7CAA4.4010200@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/2/2011 12:38 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI made some computations (simplified) and it seems to me that indeed\nGW does not pay too much attention either to physics or to chronology.\nVery roughly,\nwith constant acceleration of 1 m/sec^2 it is needed about 50 years to get\nto relativistic speed, and the same to slow down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are off by a factor of 5 or so.\n\n300,000 km/sec is 300,000,000 m/sec\n\n/1 m/sec/sec is 300,000,000 sec\n\n/60 for 5,000,000 min\n\n/60 for 83,333 hr\n\n/24 for 3472 days\n\n/365.25 for 9.5 years\n\nAs a check, the familiar factoid of 1 year at 1 g to reach lightspeed:\n\n9.8 m/sec/sec round up to 10 m/sec/sec\n\n*60 for 600 m/sec/min\n\n*60 for 36,000 m/sec/hr\n\n*24 for 864,000 m/sec/day\n\n*365.25 for 315,576,000 m/sec/year\n\n/1000 for 315,576 km/sec/year\n\nc is actually a little under 300K, so this is more like lightspeed in 50 \nweeks." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T19:36:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "<4DE7E4B3.5030706@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eeeeeyeah, but . The calculations below don't take dilation into\naccount. I'm just sayin'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/2/2011 12:38 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I made some computations (simplified) and it seems to me that indeed\nGW does not pay too much attention either to physics or to chronology.\nVery roughly,\nwith constant acceleration of 1 m/sec^2 it is needed about 50 years to get\nto relativistic speed, and the same to slow down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are off by a factor of 5 or so.\n\n300,000 km/sec is 300,000,000 m/sec\n\n/1 m/sec/sec is 300,000,000 sec\n\n/60 for 5,000,000 min\n\n/60 for 83,333 hr\n\n/24 for 3472 days\n\n/365.25 for 9.5 years\n\nAs a check, the familiar factoid of 1 year at 1 g to reach lightspeed:\n\n9.8 m/sec/sec round up to 10 m/sec/sec\n\n*60 for 600 m/sec/min\n\n*60 for 36,000 m/sec/hr\n\n*24 for 864,000 m/sec/day\n\n*365.25 for 315,576,000 m/sec/year\n\n/1000 for 315,576 km/sec/year\n\nc is actually a little under 300K, so this is more like lightspeed in 50\nweeks.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE7EA4C.70208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T19:53:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/2/2011 2:36 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nEeeeeyeah, but . The calculations below don't take dilation into\naccount. I'm just sayin'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm assuming acceleration remains constant wrt internal Whorl time, on \nthe entirely unfounded assumption that the Whorl's acceration is based \non some internal principle. I suppose they could be catching waves on \nthe unseen surf Severian's tender bobs on. This is an area where I would \nhave to defer to Gerry, but I'm pretty sure that viewed externally, \nacceleration would drop off and time dilation would increase over the \nexternal time to prevent acceleration past the speed of light from being \nobserved. There problem for me is that length contraction also comes \ninto play and that's always a pain to account for." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<022001cc2161$1157e8e0$4001a8c0@pc>", "from": { "name": "pinlighter", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T20:10:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:36 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Problematic element in chronology\nEeeeeyeah, but . The calculations below don't take dilation into\naccount. I'm just sayin'.\n\nOn Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/2/2011 12:38 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I made some computations (simplified) and it seems to me that indeed\nGW does not pay too much attention either to physics or to chronology.\nVery roughly,\nwith constant acceleration of 1 m/sec^2 it is needed about 50 years to \nget\nto relativistic speed, and the same to slow down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you are off by a factor of 5 or so.\n\n300,000 km/sec is 300,000,000 m/sec\n\n/1 m/sec/sec is 300,000,000 sec\n\n/60 for 5,000,000 min\n\n/60 for 83,333 hr\n\n/24 for 3472 days\n\n/365.25 for 9.5 years\n\nAs a check, the familiar factoid of 1 year at 1 g to reach lightspeed:\n\n9.8 m/sec/sec round up to 10 m/sec/sec\n\n*60 for 600 m/sec/min\n\n*60 for 36,000 m/sec/hr\n\n*24 for 864,000 m/sec/day\n\n*365.25 for 315,576,000 m/sec/year\n\n/1000 for 315,576 km/sec/year\n\nc is actually a little under 300K, so this is more like lightspeed in 50\nweeks.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<022901cc2161$57e68050$4001a8c0@pc>", "from": { "name": "pinlighter", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2011-06-02T20:12:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Problematic element in chronology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A good rule of thumb is Olga's prayer\n\ng y = c\n\n\n\nhartshorn\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nwith constant acceleration of 1 m/sec^2 it is needed about 50 years to \nget\nto relativistic speed, and the same to slow down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you are off by a factor of 5 or so." } ] } ] }