{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6030", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6030, "subject": "Sea monsters", "messages": 11, "voices": 7, "first": "2011-05-28T20:33:27+00:00", "last": "2011-05-31T03:25:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-28T20:33:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea monsters", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's an interesting passage in _Urth_ which I think illuminates the\nrecent discussion.\n\nUOTNS 37: Severian talking to his followers in prison (the speech\nwhich was transcribed by Canog).\n\n'... the ice in the south is already gathering new strength. To this\nice of ten chiliads will be added the ice of the winter now almost\nupon us, and the two will embrace like brothers and begin their march\nupon these northern lands. Great Erebus, who has established his\nkingdom there, will soon be driven before them, with all his fierce,\npale warriors. He will unite his strength with Abaia's, whos kingdom\nis in the warm waters. With others, less in might but equal in\ncunning, tehy will offer allegiance to the rulers of the lands belong\nUrth's waist, which you call Ascia; and once united with them will\ndevour them entirely.'\n\nSeveral things here: .\na. There are two big monsters and an indeterminate number of little\nmonsters - perhaps as many as fifteen, though we can't know that.\nb. It explains what Erebus is doing so far north, though his base was\nin the south.\nc. It explains how they came to dominate the Ascians - by originally\noffering themselves as servants.\nd. It shows that the monsters were already established on Urth in\nTyphon';s time - which fits _Short Sun_, but does not seem to fit, on\na natural reading, Typhon;s words in SOTL. Come to think of it, this\nmight be relevant to the question of a changing chronology." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-05-28T20:48:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea monsters", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \n'... the ice in the south is already gathering new strength. To this\nice of ten chiliads will be added the ice of the winter now almost\nupon us, and the two will embrace like brothers and begin their march\nupon these northern lands. Great Erebus, who has established his\nkingdom there, will soon be driven before them, with all his fierce,\npale warriors. He will unite his strength with Abaia's, whos kingdom\nis in the warm waters. With others, less in might but equal in\ncunning, tehy will offer allegiance to the rulers of the lands belong\nUrth's waist, which you call Ascia; and once united with them will\ndevour them entirely.'\n\nSeveral things here: .\na. There are two big monsters and an indeterminate number of little\nmonsters - perhaps as many as fifteen, though we can't know that.\nb. It explains what Erebus is doing so far north, though his base was\nin the south.\nc. It explains how they came to dominate the Ascians - by originally\noffering themselves as servants.\nd. It shows that the monsters were already established on Urth in\nTyphon';s time - which fits _Short Sun_, but does not seem to fit, on\na natural reading, Typhon;s words in SOTL. Come to think of it, this\nmight be relevant to the question of a changing chronology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it really contradicts Typhon's words, not strongly anyway. He \nsays something like \"there are powers in the sea, that would rule\", but he \nmight simply not have bothered to mention \"they were no more than pests in \nmy time\".\n\nPerhaps Typhon tolerated the undersea rulers so long as they kept to their \nwatery domain.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-28T23:14:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea monsters", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On a minor note here, does anyone else find these big beasties a bit\nLovecraftian, Cthulhu-esque? I feel Wolfe is engaging with that kind of\ncosmic horror in the background of the whole BotNS (in fact, I'm sad to find\nit pretty much missing in the rest of the Solar Cycle - but perhaps the\nvampiric Inhumi make up for that).\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Andrew Mason\" \n\n\n '... the ice in the south is already gathering new strength. To this\nice of ten chiliads will be added the ice of the winter now almost\nupon us, and the two will embrace like brothers and begin their march\nupon these northern lands. Great Erebus, who has established his\nkingdom there, will soon be driven before them, with all his fierce,\npale warriors. He will unite his strength with Abaia's, whos kingdom\nis in the warm waters. With others, less in might but equal in\ncunning, tehy will offer allegiance to the rulers of the lands belong\nUrth's waist, which you call Ascia; and once united with them will\ndevour them entirely.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Several things here: .\na. There are two big monsters and an indeterminate number of little\nmonsters - perhaps as many as fifteen, though we can't know that.\nb. It explains what Erebus is doing so far north, though his base was\nin the south.\nc. It explains how they came to dominate the Ascians - by originally\noffering themselves as servants.\nd. It shows that the monsters were already established on Urth in\nTyphon';s time - which fits _Short Sun_, but does not seem to fit, on\na natural reading, Typhon;s words in SOTL. Come to think of it, this\nmight be relevant to the question of a changing chronology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think it really contradicts Typhon's words, not strongly anyway.\n He says something like \"there are powers in the sea, that would rule\", but\nhe might simply not have bothered to mention \"they were no more than pests\nin my time\".\n\nPerhaps Typhon tolerated the undersea rulers so long as they kept to their\nwatery domain.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE182DB.7030201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-05-28T23:18:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea monsters", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Totally!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/28/2011 7:14 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nOn a minor note here, does anyone else find these big beasties a bit \nLovecraftian, Cthulhu-esque? I feel Wolfe is engaging with that kind \nof cosmic horror in the background of the whole BotNS (in fact, I'm \nsad to find it pretty much missing in the rest of the Solar Cycle - \nbut perhaps the vampiric Inhumi make up for that).\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-28T23:22:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea monsters", "in_reply_to": "<4DE182DB.7030201@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cool. Glad I'm not the only one. Any one know of chat about that on the\nlist?\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 12:18 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nTotally!\n\n\nOn 5/28/2011 7:14 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On a minor note here, does anyone else find these big beasties a bit\nLovecraftian, Cthulhu-esque? I feel Wolfe is engaging with that kind of\ncosmic horror in the background of the whole BotNS (in fact, I'm sad to find\nit pretty much missing in the rest of the Solar Cycle - but perhaps the\nvampiric Inhumi make up for that).\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 110528-1, 05/28/2011\nTested on: 5/28/2011 7:18:51 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<461371.7760.qm@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-05-29T04:34:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea monsters", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Daniel Petersen \nOn a minor note here, does anyone else find these big beasties a bit \nLovecraftian, Cthulhu-esque?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely, including the fact that they rule Ascia, reminiscent of the way \nCthulhu et al. are worshiped by various humans and humanoids. I mentioned that \na couple of times recently." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I feel Wolfe is engaging with that kind of cosmic \nhorror in the background of the whole BotNS" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI don't see that, though. If you believe in God as Wolfe and Severian do, you \ndon't have to worry much about cosmic horror, just about alien monsters and \nthings like that. Though there might be some of Pascal's and Lovecraft's horror \nof the gulfs of space--the Empirical Bogey, I think C. S. Lewis called it--in \nthe scene where Severian sleeps under the stars in the mountains (SotL, Chapter \nXIII).\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-29T12:33:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea monsters", "in_reply_to": "<461371.7760.qm@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I feel Wolfe is engaging with that kind of cosmic\nhorror in the background of the whole BotNS" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " wrote:I don't see that, though. If you believe\nin God as Wolfe and Severian do, you\ndon't have to worry much about cosmic horror, just about alien monsters and\nthings like that. Though there might be some of Pascal's and Lovecraft's\nhorror\nof the gulfs of space--the Empirical Bogey, I think C. S. Lewis called\nit--in\nthe scene where Severian sleeps under the stars in the mountains (SotL,\nChapter\nXIII).\n\nWell, yeah, I guess if you mean 'you don't have worry about it' in the sense\nthat if Christian theology is true, then 'theocomedy' (as the theologian\nThomas Oden calls it) trumps cosmic horror in the end. But that doesn't\nmean you don't have to engage the *worldview* that all is horror and chaos\nat the centre and in the end. Which is what I think Wolfe is engaging with\nthroughout much of his fiction. We're frail and finite beings and we have\nto engage one another's 'ultimate commitments' in our art or it lacks\nplausibility and persuasion and cohesion. Anyone who wants to embrace\ncosmic horror has to engage its possible opposite to be believable. And\nvice versa: if Wolfe ultimately exhibits theocomedy in his art (as I think\nhe does as a whole), then he must engage its potential opposite(s) as\nrepresented in things like Lovecraftian cosmic horror. I think he does this\nvery well and interestingly in fact. (As does Lewis in various places, e.g.\nPerelandra.)\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-29T23:13:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea Monsters", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason: \"..Great Erebus, who has established his kingdom there, will \nsoon be driven before them, with all his fierce, pale warriors. He will unite \nhis strength with Abaia's, whos kingdom is in the warm waters...\"\n \nThanks Andrew. I've always thought that was a key passage. I find it graphically\nillustrated by Maxellindis' uncle's story about the ship on Gyoll with voices\ncoming from the water and the bottom roiled carrying giant pandours which seem to\nbe a good semblance of \"cold, pale warriors\". In other words, the scene describes\na partnership between Abaia and Erebus. That's why I recently asked James about his \ncontention that Erebus is long dead. Personally, I suspect WOlfe intends these \ncreatures, like their mythological analogs, to be essentially immortal. Like all\n(false?) gods, their power and survival depend the number (and fervency) of their \nfollowers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Peterson: I feel Wolfe is engaging with that kind of cosmic horror in the \nbackground of the whole BotNS (in fact, I'm sad to find it pretty much missing in \nthe rest of the Solar Cycle - but perhaps the vampiric Inhumi make up for that)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to disagree. Not that the Inhumi aren't a horror element. But I think the gods\nof the Whorl add an electronic ghostian version of the sea monsters in Long Sun (while\nthe giant fish in Scylla's lake is closer to a real version of them). \n \nBut most especially in Short Sun, I find that trilogy bookended by a depictions of The \nMother (partly via Seawrack) in in OBW and Great Scylla in RttW which are much more \ngraphic views than anything we get in BotNS (except for giant Tzadkiel's pinching off a \nsmall version of herself). I think The Mother and Great Scylla highly qualify as \nLovecraftian leviathan monstrosities and I find their presence to have a behind-the-scenes\nimpact on the story at least as great as Abaia and Erebus in BotNS. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-30T12:41:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea Monsters", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nI think The Mother and Great Scylla highly qualify as\nLovecraftian leviathan monstrosities and I find their presence to have a\nbehind-the-scenes\nimpact on the story at least as great as Abaia and Erebus in BotNS.\n\n\nPoint happily taken.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 12:13 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nAndrew Mason: \"..Great Erebus, who has established his kingdom there, will\nsoon be driven before them, with all his fierce, pale warriors. He will\nunite\nhis strength with Abaia's, whos kingdom is in the warm waters...\"\n\nThanks Andrew. I've always thought that was a key passage. I find it\ngraphically\nillustrated by Maxellindis' uncle's story about the ship on Gyoll with\nvoices\ncoming from the water and the bottom roiled carrying giant pandours which\nseem to\nbe a good semblance of \"cold, pale warriors\". In other words, the scene\ndescribes\na partnership between Abaia and Erebus. That's why I recently asked James\nabout his\ncontention that Erebus is long dead. Personally, I suspect WOlfe intends\nthese\ncreatures, like their mythological analogs, to be essentially immortal.\nLike all\n(false?) gods, their power and survival depend the number (and fervency) of\ntheir\nfollowers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Peterson: I feel Wolfe is engaging with that kind of cosmic horror\nin the\nbackground of the whole BotNS (in fact, I'm sad to find it pretty much\nmissing in\nthe rest of the Solar Cycle - but perhaps the vampiric Inhumi make up for\nthat)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I tend to disagree. Not that the Inhumi aren't a horror element. But I\nthink the gods\nof the Whorl add an electronic ghostian version of the sea monsters in Long\nSun (while\nthe giant fish in Scylla's lake is closer to a real version of them).\n\nBut most especially in Short Sun, I find that trilogy bookended by a\ndepictions of The\nMother (partly via Seawrack) in in OBW and Great Scylla in RttW which are\nmuch more\ngraphic views than anything we get in BotNS (except for giant Tzadkiel's\npinching off a\nsmall version of herself). I think The Mother and Great Scylla highly\nqualify as\nLovecraftian leviathan monstrosities and I find their presence to have a\nbehind-the-scenes\nimpact on the story at least as great as Abaia and Erebus in BotNS.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DE3F9EC.8080108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-30T20:11:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea Monsters", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason:\nSeveral things here: .\na. There are two big monsters and an indeterminate number of little\nmonsters - perhaps as many as fifteen, though we can't know that.\nb. It explains what Erebus is doing so far north, though his base was\nin the south.\nc. It explains how they came to dominate the Ascians - by originally\noffering themselves as servants.\nd. It shows that the monsters were already established on Urth in\nTyphon';s time - which fits _Short Sun_, but does not seem to fit, on\na natural reading, Typhon;s words in SOTL. Come to think of it, this\nmight be relevant to the question of a changing chronology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Andrew. Certainly a) and c) are in line with my understanding til \nnow.\nI disagree that it contradicts what Typhon says. It only provides more \ninformation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman:\nThat's why I recently asked James about his\ncontention that Erebus is long dead. Personally, I suspect WOlfe intends these\ncreatures, like their mythological analogs, to be essentially immortal. Like all\n(false?) gods, their power and survival depend the number (and fervency) of their\nfollowers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From Calde of the Long Sun:\n\n[Silk says,] \"The gods are immortal, ageless. It's their immortality \nthat makes them gods, really, more than anything else.\"\n[...]\n[Quetzal replies, ]\n\"Echidna told you Pas is dead, and you can't help believing her. I've \nknown it for thirty years, since shortly after his death, in fact. How \ndid he die? How could he? [...] When I was made Prolocutor, Patera \nCalde, we had a vase at the Palace that had been thrown on the Short Sun \nWhorl, a beautiful thing. They told me\nit was five hundred years old. Almost inconceivable. Do you agree? And \npriceless, I would say, Your Cognizance.\nLemur wanted to frighten me, to show me how ruthless he could be. I \nalready knew, but he didn't know I did. I think he thought that if I did \nI'd never dare oppose him. He took that vase from its stand and smashed \nit at my feet. [...] Look, now. That vase was immortal. It didn't age. \nIt was proof against disease. But it could be destroyed, as it was. So \ncould Pas. He couldn't age, or even fall sick. But he could be \ndestroyed, and he was.\"\n\nAnd for a being like Pas, death was not necessarily the end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee:\nBut most especially in Short Sun, I find that trilogy bookended by a depictions of The\nMother (partly via Seawrack) in in OBW and Great Scylla in RttW which are much more\ngraphic views than anything we get in BotNS (except for giant Tzadkiel's pinching off a\nsmall version of herself). I think The Mother and Great Scylla highly qualify as\nLovecraftian leviathan monstrosities and I find their presence to have a behind-the-scenes\nimpact on the story at least as great as Abaia and Erebus in BotNS. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Rajan calls Scylla and Mother \"sisters\", but I suspect they are in \nsomeway the same. If Wolfe thinks he was provided enough clues to know \none way or the other, then I missed it. Yet, her ability to absorb \nCilinia implies to me that Scylla is not merely a biological creature. \nOr if she is, then she of some biology that is similar but greater than \nthe Neighbors.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-05-31T03:25:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sea Monsters", "in_reply_to": "<4DE3F9EC.8080108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: \n[Silk says,] \"The gods are immortal, ageless. It's their immortality \nthat makes them gods, really, more than anything else.\"\n[...]\n[Quetzal replies, ]\n\"Echidna told you Pas is dead, and you can't help believing her. I've \nknown it for thirty years, since shortly after his death, in fact. How \ndid he die? How could he?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And for a being like Pas, death was not necessarily the end." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, James, for these Silk and Quetzel quotes. They do support my view\nof the immortality of Sun Series gods- they can be eliminated or destroyed\nin some manner but they always have the potential to come back.\n \nI consider the converse of Silk's statement to be equally important: it is\nour mortality which makes us human. This is an important concept in The Bible \n(we get the fruit of knowledge, not life), most mythologies, even in Tolkein.\nMortality is both our curse and blessing. Our weakness is ultimately our\ngreatest strength (let's face it, the gods and elves just can't breed as\nrapidly as we can, and such reproductive power requires mortality).\n \nI think these concepts support my (minority?) opinion that Typhon should be\nconsidered more as god than human. There is name, his psychic power and his Pas \nstatus on the whorl. But mostly there is his immortality. The guy wasn't just \nparched, he was a piece of leather. But somehow from that he rather quickly \nbecame a working organism again. Severian couldn't do that for human Little \nSeverian.\n \nSeverian's apparent immortality calls his humanity into question for me also.\nHe thinks he is mortal. We think he is mortal. But is he really? Nothing can\nkill the guy though many powerful beings have tried." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Rajan calls Scylla and Mother \"sisters\", but I suspect they are in \nsomeway the same. If Wolfe thinks he was provided enough clues to know \none way or the other, then I missed it. Yet, her ability to absorb \nCilinia implies to me that Scylla is not merely a biological creature. \nOr if she is, then she of some biology that is similar but greater than \nthe Neighbors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me, this question has been adequately answered in other discussions. We are\ndealing with creatures with the capacity for asexual reproduction but, since they\ncan take human form, our narrators insist on trying to assign human kinship labels\nto these things. Small wonder they are inadequate. \n \nWhat is the proper word to describe the relationship between BIG Tzadkiel, human-sized \nTzadkiel and tinker-bell Tzadkiel? Perhaps as you say, James, \"sisters but in someway \nthe same.\"\n \nThus, I think, the snake associations with both Echidna and Scylla. The MOther is on Blue\nGreat Scylla is on Urth. Scylla may, in a sense, be Echidna's daughter but they are are in\nsome ways the same (cloned?) being.\n \nWolfe deliberately plants evidence to make us think Pas and his family are based entirely \non a human family. But I see more evidence, including their immortality in the sense \npreviously discussed, and those darn sea monsters, that there is more to them than simply \na legendary human king and his nasty royal brood. I think Wolfe interview quotes about the\nrealness of mythological gods supports that conclusion. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }