{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6033", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6033, "subject": "not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "messages": 17, "voices": 8, "first": "2011-06-08T11:13:51+00:00", "last": "2011-06-09T12:27:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<8FCA404E8BAE024CA6CED299DA8223DB09CFDC2694@VA3DIAXVS291.RED001.local>", "from": { "name": "Steve Case", "address": "scase at olivet.edu" }, "date": "2011-06-08T11:13:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not yet, anyway: \"Moving mirrors make light from nothing\": http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110603/full/news.2011.346.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DEF63B7.9080104@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-06-08T11:57:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "<8FCA404E8BAE024CA6CED299DA8223DB09CFDC2694@VA3DIAXVS291.RED001.local>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nicely put:\n\n\"Quantum theory predicts that a vacuum is actually a writhing foam of \nparticles flitting in and out of existence.\"\n\nThe most apparent limitation of the sails of the Ship is that (you would \nthink) they shouldn't generate as much \"lift\" away from a star, when \nthey would want to go very fast, as they do very near one, when they \nwould want to go very slow.\n\nIf they can actually generate a little more pressure from space itself, \nthat's less of a problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/8/2011 7:13 AM, Steve Case wrote:\nNot yet, anyway: \"Moving mirrors make light from nothing\": http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110603/full/news.2011.346.html\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-06-08T15:32:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4DEF63B7.9080104@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"David Stockhoff\" \nNicely put:\n\n\"Quantum theory predicts that a vacuum is actually a writhing foam of \nparticles flitting in and out of existence.\"\n\nThe most apparent limitation of the sails of the Ship is that (you would \nthink) they shouldn't generate as much \"lift\" away from a star, when they \nwould want to go very fast, as they do very near one, when they would want \nto go very slow.\n\nIf they can actually generate a little more pressure from space itself, \nthat's less of a problem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mirror experiment described won't help in propulsion (it causes \naccelerated mirrors to emit radiation, which would slow them down). In any \ncase the emissions were a function of acceleration rather than velocity.\n\nHoweer, Severian writes in _Claw_:\n\n\"How foolish to call them mirrors. They are to mirrors as the enveloping \nfirmament is to a child's balloon. They reflect light indeed; but that, I \nthink, is no part of their true function. They reflect reality, the \nmetaphysical substance that underlies the material world.\"\n\nPerhaps reflected reality generates more pressure than reflected light! (Of \ncourse, Inire's mirrors may not be identical to Tzadkiel's sails, even if \nthey share some properties.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-08T17:08:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Perhaps reflected reality generates more pressure than reflected light! \n(Of course, Inire's mirrors may not be identical to Tzadkiel's sails, even if \nthey share some properties.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, I think we have four examples of mirrors: Father Inire's, the Old Autarch's\nbook, Hethor's and the ship sails. I am inclined to think all four are meant to be\nessentially the same sort of thing with the same properties, transportation among\nthem.\n \nI don't think the ship sails are meant to be light sails. There seems to be no\nstellar origin to its propulsion (aside from some dreamy, perhaps misinformed\npoetic report by Severian). It seems to confine its travels to the void. Moreover, \niirc, when it travels to the higher universe it passes through the primeval soup of \nour own universal origin, where all the stars are clumped together. I'd think all that\nlight would push intensely hard against light sails, rather than draw them in.\n \nI'm content with the notion that, in their function they reflect \"reality\" whatever \nthat means, rather than light. How else to explain inter-universal travel? (esp. in\nwritings from 30 years ago)\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-08T17:13:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\"How foolish to call them mirrors. They are to mirrors as the enveloping\nfirmament is to a child's balloon. They reflect light indeed; but that, I\nthink, is no part of their true function. They reflect reality, the\nmetaphysical substance that underlies the material world.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think what they really reflect is a great deal of handwaving on\nWolfe's part, and a not insignificant quantity of willing suspension\nof disbelief on the reader's part." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<84247.57330.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-06-08T17:39:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 6/8/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 11:32 AM\n\nFrom: \"David Stockhoff\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nicely put:\n\n\"Quantum theory predicts that a vacuum is actually a\nwrithing foam of particles flitting in and out of\nexistence.\"\n\nThe most apparent limitation of the sails of the Ship\nis that (you would think) they shouldn't generate as much\n\"lift\" away from a star, when they would want to go very\nfast, as they do very near one, when they would want to go\nvery slow.\n\nIf they can actually generate a little more pressure\nfrom space itself, that's less of a problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The mirror experiment described won't help in propulsion\n(it causes accelerated mirrors to emit radiation, which\nwould slow them down). In any case the emissions were\na function of acceleration rather than velocity.\n\nHoweer, Severian writes in _Claw_:\n\n\"How foolish to call them mirrors. They are to mirrors as\nthe enveloping firmament is to a child's balloon. They\nreflect light indeed; but that, I think, is no part of their\ntrue function. They reflect reality, the metaphysical\nsubstance that underlies the material world.\"\n\nPerhaps reflected reality generates more pressure than\nreflected light!? (Of course, Inire's mirrors may not\nbe identical to Tzadkiel's sails, even if they share some\nproperties.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, the experiment doesn't give much cover for Tzadkiel's sails as quantum propulsion systems. Especially since the effect isn't supposed to show up until the mirror is moving almost at c anyway.\n\nBut what is a sail on a ship if not a propulsion system? What good is a mirror that reflects reality without obeying quantum mechanics?\n\nSince starsails have been part of SF for decades, it follows that Izadkiel's sails would or could work that way, but with a twist. Perhaps the twist is simply that with 100% reflectivity---or, if you will, >100% reflectivity, along the lines of \"darker than black\" and \"whiter than white\"---you somehow get more reflected out than you thought you were putting in, thus also allowing an amplifying effect between 2 such mirrors.\n\n\"Virtual particles\" seem to provide a plausible explanation even if they postdate the books: a perfect mirror would \"see\" the foam that makes up space as well as everything occupying or passing through that space." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-08T17:46:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "<84247.57330.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\"Virtual particles\" seem to provide a plausible explanation even if they postdate the books:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, they were first proposed by Paul M.A. Dirac in 1930, so no\nproblem there. The positron was conceived of as a \"hole in the Dirac\nsea\" before it was recognized as an anti-electron and demonstrated in\n1932." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8FCA404E8BAE024CA6CED299DA8223DB09CFDC2695@VA3DIAXVS291.RED001.local>", "from": { "name": "Steve Case", "address": "scase at olivet.edu" }, "date": "2011-06-08T18:22:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the article made me think of the mirrors in Father Inire's chambers that created the fish. Weren't they spinning? I don't quite recall. \n\n-Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6C1B0158DB5143958C93711D380E29C4@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-06-08T18:49:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"How foolish to call them mirrors. They are to mirrors as the enveloping\nfirmament is to a child's balloon. They reflect light indeed; but that, I\nthink, is no part of their true function. They reflect reality, the\nmetaphysical substance that underlies the material world.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think what they really reflect is a great deal of handwaving on\nWolfe's part, and a not insignificant quantity of willing suspension\nof disbelief on the reader's part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, the whole idea that the Ship tacks across the photon winds...\n\nApheta: \"The worlds are very far apart. If one of our ships goes from one to \nanother as fast as the starlight, the voyage takes many centuries. It does \nnot seem so to those on the ship, but it does. If the ship goes even faster, \ntacking in the wind from the suns, time runs backward so that the ship \narrives before it sails.\"\n\n\n...might be considered a clear indication that when Wolfe finds a conflict \nbetween neat ideas and valid science, the neat ideas win out. Tacking \nacross the photon wind is a neat idea, but obviously it only works if you \ncan get some sort of traction on the vacuum. And if you could do that, \nspecial relativity would be completely DOA.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<834448.76362.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-06-08T18:59:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stupendous!\n\nI should never be surprised at how much older ideas turn out to be than one thinks, or than the technology that seeks to employ them. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 6/8/11, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 1:46 PM\nDAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Virtual particles\" seem to provide a plausible\nexplanation even if they postdate the books:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, they were first proposed by Paul M.A. Dirac in\n1930, so no\nproblem there. The positron was conceived of as a \"hole in\nthe Dirac\nsea\" before it was recognized as an anti-electron and\ndemonstrated in\n1932.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DEFE703.5030805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-08T21:17:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "<6C1B0158DB5143958C93711D380E29C4@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (08-06-2011 19:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...might be considered a clear indication that when Wolfe finds a\nconflict between neat ideas and valid science, the neat ideas win out" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Count me in!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tacking across the photon wind is a neat idea, but obviously it only\nworks if you can get some sort of traction on the vacuum. And if you\ncould do that, special relativity would be completely DOA." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know that that's the only problem with the 'photon wind', but the \nidea I have from the current and not-so-current panorama is that there isn't \na single established theory that hasn't big holes in it - meaning that even \nas they are useful for Technological Progress, one shouldn't be completely \nshackled to their Fundamental Implications." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2A735A7A-BD23-41E5-9F1E-D7603D776FF1@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-06-08T23:59:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 8, 2011, at 10:13 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"How foolish to call them mirrors. They are to mirrors as the enveloping\nfirmament is to a child's balloon. They reflect light indeed; but that, I\nthink, is no part of their true function. They reflect reality, the\nmetaphysical substance that underlies the material world.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think what they really reflect is a great deal of handwaving on\nWolfe's part, and a not insignificant quantity of willing suspension\nof disbelief on the reader's part.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+1\n\nI always trip out at the level of scientific analysis around here. How big the moon should look in the cover pic, and such. Very interesting, but it cracks me up. I had a laugh when I read about the photon wind driving the sails. I took it as a peotic notion, and not hard science fiction. I think Wolfe's poetic side wins out over his engineer side quite often. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DF03845.5080203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-06-09T03:04:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "<2A735A7A-BD23-41E5-9F1E-D7603D776FF1@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Someone needs to write a space opera with a song titled \"Tacking Across \nthe Photon Winds.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/8/2011 7:59 PM, Son of Witz wrote:\nOn Jun 8, 2011, at 10:13 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"How foolish to call them mirrors. They are to mirrors as the enveloping\nfirmament is to a child's balloon. They reflect light indeed; but that, I\nthink, is no part of their true function. They reflect reality, the\nmetaphysical substance that underlies the material world.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think what they really reflect is a great deal of handwaving on\nWolfe's part, and a not insignificant quantity of willing suspension\nof disbelief on the reader's part.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "+1\n\nI always trip out at the level of scientific analysis around here. How big the moon should look in the cover pic, and such. Very interesting, but it cracks me up. I had a laugh when I read about the photon wind driving the sails. I took it as a peotic notion, and not hard science fiction. I think Wolfe's poetic side wins out over his engineer side quite often.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DF051E9.1080900@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-06-09T04:54:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/8/2011 12:08 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Perhaps reflected reality generates more pressure than reflected light!\n(Of course, Inire's mirrors may not be identical to Tzadkiel's sails, even if\nthey share some properties.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I think we have four examples of mirrors: Father Inire's, the Old Autarch's\nbook, Hethor's and the ship sails. I am inclined to think all four are meant to be\nessentially the same sort of thing with the same properties, transportation among\nthem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a fifth set, the mirrored portion of Hall of Meaning at the \nHouse Absolute where Domnina and Thecla were playing. This may or may \nnot be the first place Domnina saw the fish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think the ship sails are meant to be light sails. There seems to be no\nstellar origin to its propulsion (aside from some dreamy, perhaps misinformed\npoetic report by Severian). It seems to confine its travels to the void. Moreover,\niirc, when it travels to the higher universe it passes through the primeval soup of\nour own universal origin, where all the stars are clumped together. I'd think all that\nlight would push intensely hard against light sails, rather than draw them in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's at the end of Chapter XV in URTH, right? But tat the beginning of \nChapter XV, Sev makes it clear the ship was traveling away from the \nbrightness: \"....behind us, where once I had seen the corona lucis of \nthe young suns, I now saw our universe...\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DF05B12.8040006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2011-06-09T05:33:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4DEFE703.5030805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/8/2011 4:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nbut the idea I have from the current and not-so-current panorama is that\nthere isn't a single established theory that hasn't big holes in it -\nmeaning that even as they are useful for Technological Progress, one\nshouldn't be completely shackled to their Fundamental Implications." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean here. People educated in actual science from \nthe first half of the 20th century later are aware that knowledge of the \nphysical world is limited by the physical laws of observation, and that \ncomprehension itself is limited by the incomplete nature of logical \ncontemplation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0DCB2A52-E381-487A-9B7A-4E079FCC3DD7@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-09T08:46:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4DF05B12.8040006@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/06/09, ?s 06:33, Jeff Wilson escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/8/2011 4:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but the idea I have from the current and not-so-current panorama is \nthat\nthere isn't a single established theory that hasn't big holes in it -\nmeaning that even as they are useful for Technological Progress, one\nshouldn't be completely shackled to their Fundamental Implications." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That we may merrily make use of E = m c^2 or calculate the \ndistribution of electrons around an atom regardless of the importance \nwe attach to the philosophy of relativity or of the quanta. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-09T12:27:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) not quite Father Inire's mirrors . . .", "in_reply_to": "<0DCB2A52-E381-487A-9B7A-4E079FCC3DD7@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: But what is a sail on a ship if not a propulsion system? What good\nis a mirror that reflects reality without obeying quantum mechanics?...it follows \nthat Izadkiel's sails would or could work that way, but with a twist. Perhaps the \ntwist is simply that with 100% reflectivity---or, if you will, >100% reflectivity, \nalong the lines of \"darker than black\" and \"whiter than white\"---you somehow get more \nreflected out than you thought you were putting in, thus also allowing an amplifying \neffect between 2 such mirrors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSome good ideas are being tossed around. David mention of the \"darker than black\" \nconcept made me consider the (unlikely) possibility that Wolfe had anticipated\ndark matter. Could the ship be propelled using that, somehow?\n \nThanks to Jeff for the clarification on the universe jumping scene.\n \nI agree that Apheta's words were a good excuse for Wolfe to wax poetic. But I think\nthere is a certain Wolfean philosophical theme being engaged also. Apheta (and others\nat different points in the story) is doing her best to explain things to a primitive \nbeast in terms he can understand. It doesn't matter how accurate the words are if at \nleast some knowledge is transferred. Sort of like a modern scientist being forced to \nexplain lightning to an ancient Greek. He'd have to say things like, \"to generate the \nstatic electric potential, Zeus must rub two woolly clouds together...\" or \nsomething like that.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }