{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6035", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6035, "subject": "Lame Protagonists", "messages": 15, "voices": 10, "first": "2011-06-15T19:41:00+00:00", "last": "2011-06-20T16:02:19+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-15T19:41:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished Peace (which was absolutely wonderful) and am now reading\nthe last half of The Book of the Long Sun. I noticed when reading Peace,\none short sentence in which the narrator references his bad leg, which is\ndragging behind him. Of course, Severian is famously lame, and for the\nlarger portion of Long Sun, Patera Silk has a wounded leg that is mentioned\nseveral times. I was wondering what people thought the significance is, and\nif there were other protagonists in Wolfe novels who are lame." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9bf37.30e14637.3b2a6b1c@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2011-06-15T20:07:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn a message dated 6/15/2011 2:41:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, \nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just finished Peace (which was absolutely wonderful) and\nam now reading the last half of The Book of the Long Sun.\nI noticed when reading Peace, one short sentence in which\nthe narrator references his bad leg, which is dragging\nbehind him. Of course, Severian is famously lame, and\nfor the larger portion of Long Sun, Patera Silk has a\nwounded leg that is mentioned several times. I was\nwondering what people thought the significance is, and\nif there were other protagonists in Wolfe novels who\nare lame." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy guess, without looking at it closely, would be that Wolfe might have \nGenesis 3 in mind. In God's curse on the serpent, we read that he will \nimpose enmity between the serpent and the woman and between the serpent's seed \n(offspring) and the woman's seed (offspring), an enmity which will culminate \nthis way: \"He will bruise/crush your head and you will bruise/crush his \nheel.\" \n \nThat verse is often called the protoevangelium, because it is seen by \nChristians as referring to Jesus' death on the cross, whereby he also crushed \nthe head of the serpent (Satan). The cross is the crushing/bruising of \nJesus' heel, the serpent's strike at Jesus, which results in Jesus' death ... \nbut that death isn't final, and in the serpent's striking at Jesus, the \nserpent ends up with his own head crushed. \n \nMoreover, Paul applies that promise to the whole church in Romans 16 when \nhe promises the church in Rome that \"the God of peace will crush Satan under \n your feet shortly.\" So it is not just that Jesus crushes the serpent's \nhead. It is also that God crushes the serpent (Satan) under the feet of the \nchurch. And if that's the case, then it's not surprising that in crushing \nthe serpent, the church also sustains a foot wound.\n \nSo perhaps there's some connection between the lameness of these \ncharacters and the promise in Genesis 3. But I wonder if there isn't perhaps also a \nconnection with the Jacob narrative: When Jacob wrestles the Angel, who \nturns out to be YHWH himself, he learns that all of his wrestling with man \nthroughout his life (Isaac, Esau, Laban) has actually been wrestling with God \n... and that in that wrestling, far from losing, he has actually been \nwinning. Now, wrestling with the Angel, he is winning again. But the Angel \nsimply touches Jacob's hip and the result is that Jacob limps for the rest of \nhis life. That limp, though a weakness, is not a sign of his loss but of \nhis victory. He is now Israel, the one who wrestles with God and prevails. \n And maybe these Wolfean characters are to be viewed as Jacobs, as those \nwho are wrestling with God.\n \nI'll let others carry these thoughts further if they wish. (By the way, \nthis sort of imagery is also present, even more strongly, in the works of \nTim Powers. How many of Powers' characters are wounded in their heads, \nhands, and feet in the course of the story?)\n \nJohn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20110615201706.QVX32549.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2011-06-15T20:17:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "<9bf37.30e14637.3b2a6b1c@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC it's also in The Hero as Werewolf.\n\nJBJordan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:07 PM 6/15/2011, you wrote:\nIn a message dated 6/15/2011 2:41:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, \nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just finished Peace (which was absolutely wonderful) and\nam now reading the last half of The Book of the Long Sun.\nI noticed when reading Peace, one short sentence in which\nthe narrator references his bad leg, which is dragging\nbehind him. Of course, Severian is famously lame, and\nfor the larger portion of Long Sun, Patera Silk has a\nwounded leg that is mentioned several times. I was\nwondering what people thought the significance is, and\nif there were other protagonists in Wolfe novels who\nare lame." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My guess, without looking at it closely, would be that Wolfe might \nhave Genesis 3 in mind. In God's curse on the serpent, we read that \nhe will impose enmity between the serpent and the woman and between \nthe serpent's seed (offspring) and the woman's seed (offspring), an \nenmity which will culminate this way: \"He will bruise/crush your \nhead and you will bruise/crush his heel.\"\n\nThat verse is often called the protoevangelium, because it is seen \nby Christians as referring to Jesus' death on the cross, whereby he \nalso crushed the head of the serpent (Satan). The cross is the \ncrushing/bruising of Jesus' heel, the serpent's strike at Jesus, \nwhich results in Jesus' death ... but that death isn't final, and in \nthe serpent's striking at Jesus, the serpent ends up with his own \nhead crushed.\n\nMoreover, Paul applies that promise to the whole church in Romans 16 \nwhen he promises the church in Rome that \"the God of peace will \ncrush Satan under your feet shortly.\" So it is not just that Jesus \ncrushes the serpent's head. It is also that God crushes the serpent \n(Satan) under the feet of the church. And if that's the case, then \nit's not surprising that in crushing the serpent, the church also \nsustains a foot wound.\n\nSo perhaps there's some connection between the lameness of these \ncharacters and the promise in Genesis 3. But I wonder if there \nisn't perhaps also a connection with the Jacob narrative: When Jacob \nwrestles the Angel, who turns out to be YHWH himself, he learns that \nall of his wrestling with man throughout his life (Isaac, Esau, \nLaban) has actually been wrestling with God ... and that in that \nwrestling, far from losing, he has actually been winning. Now, \nwrestling with the Angel, he is winning again. But the Angel simply \ntouches Jacob's hip and the result is that Jacob limps for the rest \nof his life. That limp, though a weakness, is not a sign of his \nloss but of his victory. He is now Israel, the one who wrestles \nwith God and prevails. And maybe these Wolfean characters are to be \nviewed as Jacobs, as those who are wrestling with God.\n\nI'll let others carry these thoughts further if they wish. (By the \nway, this sort of imagery is also present, even more strongly, in \nthe works of Tim Powers. How many of Powers' characters are wounded \nin their heads, hands, and feet in the course of the story?)\n\nJohn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-16T01:10:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "<20110615201706.QVX32549.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe seems to walk with a cane. Silk is limping through much of the\nLong Sun, and the Rajan has his strange staff in the Short Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:17 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\n IIRC it's also in The Hero as Werewolf.\n\nJBJordan\n\n\nAt 03:07 PM 6/15/2011, you wrote:\n\nIn a message dated 6/15/2011 2:41:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time,\nkierkegaurdian at gmail.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just finished Peace (which was absolutely wonderful) and\nam now reading the last half of The Book of the Long Sun.\nI noticed when reading Peace, one short sentence in which\nthe narrator references his bad leg, which is dragging\nbehind him. Of course, Severian is famously lame, and\nfor the larger portion of Long Sun, Patera Silk has a\nwounded leg that is mentioned several times. I was\nwondering what people thought the significance is, and\nif there were other protagonists in Wolfe novels who\nare lame." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My guess, without looking at it closely, would be that Wolfe might have\nGenesis 3 in mind. In God's curse on the serpent, we read that he will\nimpose enmity between the serpent and the woman and between the serpent's\nseed (offspring) and the woman's seed (offspring), an enmity which will\nculminate this way: \"He will bruise/crush your head and you will\nbruise/crush his heel.\"\n\nThat verse is often called the protoevangelium, because it is seen by\nChristians as referring to Jesus' death on the cross, whereby he also\ncrushed the head of the serpent (Satan). The cross is the crushing/bruising\nof Jesus' heel, the serpent's strike at Jesus, which results in Jesus' death\n... but that death isn't final, and in the serpent's striking at Jesus, the\nserpent ends up with his own head crushed.\n\nMoreover, Paul applies that promise to the whole church in Romans 16 when\nhe promises the church in Rome that \"the God of peace will crush Satan under\nyour feet shortly.\" So it is not just that Jesus crushes the serpent's\nhead. It is also that God crushes the serpent (Satan) under the feet of the\nchurch. And if that's the case, then it's not surprising that in crushing\nthe serpent, the church also sustains a foot wound.\n\nSo perhaps there's some connection between the lameness of these characters\nand the promise in Genesis 3. But I wonder if there isn't perhaps also a\nconnection with the Jacob narrative: When Jacob wrestles the Angel, who\nturns out to be YHWH himself, he learns that all of his wrestling with man\nthroughout his life (Isaac, Esau, Laban) has actually been wrestling with\nGod ... and that in that wrestling, far from losing, he has actually been\nwinning. Now, wrestling with the Angel, he is winning again. But the Angel\nsimply touches Jacob's hip and the result is that Jacob limps for the rest\nof his life. That limp, though a weakness, is not a sign of his loss but of\nhis victory. He is now Israel, the one who wrestles with God and prevails.\nAnd maybe these Wolfean characters are to be viewed as Jacobs, as those who\nare wrestling with God.\n\nI'll let others carry these thoughts further if they wish. (By the way,\nthis sort of imagery is also present, even more strongly, in the works of\nTim Powers. How many of Powers' characters are wounded in their heads,\nhands, and feet in the course of the story?)\n\nJohn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son Of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-06-16T02:44:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is what I was gonna ask. Does GW have a limp?\n\n~M" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 15, 2011, at 6:10 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nGene Wolfe seems to walk with a cane. Silk is limping through much of the Long Sun, and the Rajan has his strange staff in the Short Sun.\n\n\nOn Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:17 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nIIRC it's also in The Hero as Werewolf.\n\nJBJordan\n\n\nAt 03:07 PM 6/15/2011, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In a message dated 6/15/2011 2:41:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, kierkegaurdian at gmail.com writes:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I just finished Peace (which was absolutely wonderful) and\nam now reading the last half of The Book of the Long Sun.\nI noticed when reading Peace, one short sentence in which\nthe narrator references his bad leg, which is dragging\nbehind him. Of course, Severian is famously lame, and\nfor the larger portion of Long Sun, Patera Silk has a\nwounded leg that is mentioned several times. I was\nwondering what people thought the significance is, and\nif there were other protagonists in Wolfe novels who\nare lame." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \nMy guess, without looking at it closely, would be that Wolfe might have Genesis 3 in mind. In God's curse on the serpent, we read that he will impose enmity between the serpent and the woman and between the serpent's seed (offspring) and the woman's seed (offspring), an enmity which will culminate this way: \"He will bruise/crush your head and you will bruise/crush his heel.\" \n \nThat verse is often called the protoevangelium, because it is seen by Christians as referring to Jesus' death on the cross, whereby he also crushed the head of the serpent (Satan). The cross is the crushing/bruising of Jesus' heel, the serpent's strike at Jesus, which results in Jesus' death ... but that death isn't final, and in the serpent's striking at Jesus, the serpent ends up with his own head crushed. \n \nMoreover, Paul applies that promise to the whole church in Romans 16 when he promises the church in Rome that \"the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.\" So it is not just that Jesus crushes the serpent's head. It is also that God crushes the serpent (Satan) under the feet of the church. And if that's the case, then it's not surprising that in crushing the serpent, the church also sustains a foot wound.\n \nSo perhaps there's some connection between the lameness of these characters and the promise in Genesis 3. But I wonder if there isn't perhaps also a connection with the Jacob narrative: When Jacob wrestles the Angel, who turns out to be YHWH himself, he learns that all of his wrestling with man throughout his life (Isaac, Esau, Laban) has actually been wrestling with God ... and that in that wrestling, far from losing, he has actually been winning. Now, wrestling with the Angel, he is winning again. But the Angel simply touches Jacob's hip and the result is that Jacob limps for the rest of his life. That limp, though a weakness, is not a sign of his loss but of his victory. He is now Israel, the one who wrestles with God and prevails. And maybe these Wolfean characters are to be viewed as Jacobs, as those who are wrestling with God.\n \nI'll let others carry these thoughts further if they wish. (By the way, this sort of imagery is also present, even more strongly, in the works of Tim Powers. How many of Powers' characters are wounded in their heads, hands, and feet in the course of the story?)\n \nJohn\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<629811.9794.qm@web161816.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-06-16T03:08:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "supposedly, according to an online source, Wolfe had a childhood encounter with polio, but the permanence of that would certiainly be in question with his young career in the military. Certainly now he walks with a cane in some social settings, but if there is a limp it does not seem ridiculously pronounced from my brief encounters with him in his mid seventies. I wouldn't say his gait is free of minor ponderance, but I would never say - that fellow clearly has a limp!\n\n--- On Wed, 6/15/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: (urth) Lame Protagonists\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 12:41 PM\n\n\nI just finished Peace (which was absolutely wonderful) and am now reading the last half of The Book of the Long Sun. I noticed when reading Peace, one short sentence in which the narrator references his bad leg, which is dragging behind him. Of course, Severian is famously lame, and for the larger portion of Long Sun, Patera Silk has a wounded leg that is mentioned several times. I was wondering what people thought the significance is, and if there were other protagonists in Wolfe novels who are lame.\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-16T19:28:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "<629811.9794.qm@web161816.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: supposedly, according to an online source, Wolfe had a childhood \nencounter with polio, but the permanence of that would certiainly be in question \nwith his young career in the military. Certainly now he walks with a cane in some \nsocial settings, but if there is a limp it does not seem ridiculously pronounced \nfrom my brief encounters with him in his mid seventies. I wouldn't say his gait is \nfree of minor ponderance, but I would never say - that fellow clearly has a limp!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI've wondered about this question for years. I hadn't heard the polio story but Wolfe \ndoes mention having a serious leg injury as a child from a bike accident. As you say,\nhe couldn't have had a very noticeable limp as a young man or he wouldn't have been \ntaken by the army.\n \nPerhaps one day, we'll get a reliable source who can tell us if WOlfe had a limp (and/\nor chest injury scar) during the 70's when most of BotNS was written. (heh, I've \nsimilarly searched in vain to find out if Tolkein was missing a bit of his ring finger). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2011-06-16T20:59:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "<20110615201706.QVX32549.eastrmfepo201.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some, at least, of the references to lame characters in Tim Powers' books refer to the Fisher King. One can certainly find some echoes of the various Fisher King myths in BotNS, but whether these are intended I am not certain. It's always easy to find some resemblances to any complex mythos, particularly one whose strands are as vague and confusing as those of the Fisher King.\n\nFor what it's worth, though, we do see a wounded king (Severian, the Autarch, or both) in a wounded land (the Commonwealth). The wound of the Fisher King may be in the groin or the leg, suiting the Autarch or Severian. The state of the land is linked to the state of the king; we can at least tie the state of the Commonwealth to the hubris of an earlier ruler. There is certainly a Grail in BotNS (the White Fountain). Of course there are distinct differences too, and each story has many elements that would be hard to relate to the other. So I mention it, but I am not at all convinced that any intentional reference exists.\n\nLess fancifully, we can take Severian's lameness as a lesser echo of the old Autarch's castration. Or we can simply put it in the context of sacrifice, or battle wounds. Severian's face is also badly scarred.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: James B. Jordan \n IIRC it's also in The Hero as Werewolf.\n At 03:07 PM 6/15/2011, you wrote:\n In a message dated 6/15/2011 2:41:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, kierkegaurdian at gmail.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just finished Peace (which was absolutely wonderful) and\nam now reading the last half of The Book of the Long Sun.\nI noticed when reading Peace, one short sentence in which\nthe narrator references his bad leg, which is dragging\nbehind him. Of course, Severian is famously lame, and\nfor the larger portion of Long Sun, Patera Silk has a\nwounded leg that is mentioned several times. I was\nwondering what people thought the significance is, and\nif there were other protagonists in Wolfe novels who\nare lame." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n My guess, without looking at it closely, would be that Wolfe might have Genesis 3 in mind. In God's curse on the serpent, we read that he will impose enmity between the serpent and the woman and between the serpent's seed (offspring) and the woman's seed (offspring), an enmity which will culminate this way: \"He will bruise/crush your head and you will bruise/crush his heel.\" \n \n I'll let others carry these thoughts further if they wish. (By the way, this sort of imagery is also present, even more strongly, in the works of Tim Powers. How many of Powers' characters are wounded in their heads, hands, and feet in the course of the story?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-17T12:17:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JBJordan: IIRC it's also in The Hero as Werewolf." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice to see you again, James! BTW, I still consider your 1996 interview with Gene\nWolfe to be a watershed moment in understanding his work. I quote from it\noften." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: For what it's worth, though, we do see a wounded king (Severian, the \nAutarch, or both) in a wounded land (the Commonwealth). The wound of the Fisher \nKing may be in the groin or the leg, suiting the Autarch or Severian...There is \ncertainly a Grail in BotNS (the White Fountain)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWho are you and what have you done with Gerry Quinn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I mention it, but I am not at all convinced that any intentional reference exists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAh, there you are. But you DID mention it. That says something ;- ). Plus it is a\nsignificant contribution, imho." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JBarach: The cross is the crushing/bruising of Jesus' heel, the serpent's strike at \nJesus, which results in Jesus' death ... but that death isn't final, and in the \nserpent's striking at Jesus, the serpent ends up with his own head crushed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis reminds me of Severian's encounter with Typhon. Though his foot is not injured\nthere, he is dangled in a vice-like grip by his ankle(s). And of course he does crush \nthe head of a character whose mythological namesake is variously associated with snakes, \ndragons and the Devil. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DFBF847.6080802@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-06-18T00:58:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/16/2011 2:28 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n(heh, I've\nsimilarly searched in vain to find out if Tolkein was missing a bit of his ring finger). \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Left hand was fully present:\n\nhttp://www.historycentral.com/bio/people/Tolkien.html\n\n\nSame for the right:\n\nhttp://curiouspresbyterian.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/j-r-r-tolkien-news-novelty-version-of-lord-of-the-rings-translated-from-russian/\n\n\nAll digits accounted for." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DFBFA65.1030201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-06-18T01:07:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "<4DFBF847.6080802@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Praise Google!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/17/2011 8:58 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/16/2011 2:28 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(heh, I've\nsimilarly searched in vain to find out if Tolkein was missing a bit \nof his ring finger)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Left hand was fully present:\n\nhttp://www.historycentral.com/bio/people/Tolkien.html\n\n\nSame for the right:\n\nhttp://curiouspresbyterian.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/j-r-r-tolkien-news-novelty-version-of-lord-of-the-rings-translated-from-russian/ \n\n\n\nAll digits accounted for." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DFC5359.9030606@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-06-18T07:27:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "<4DFBFA65.1030201@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/17/2011 8:07 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nPraise Google!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But \"on\" the other hand....\n\nhttp://www.treknicalities.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/scotty_sans_finger.jpg" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-06-20T14:42:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "<4DFC5359.9030606@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Left hand was fully present:\nhttp://www.historycentral.com/bio/people/Tolkien.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Same for the right:\nhttp://curiouspresbyterian.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/j-r-r-tolkien-news-novelty-version-of-lord-of-the-rings-translated-from-russian/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nThanks Jeff. I think the left hand is clearly shown to be complete. Unfortunately, \nlike every other photo I've found, the right hand shot may leave room for the ring \nfinger to be missing the top piece. Deliberate posing and photo cropping? Or coincidence?\nPerhaps I'll never know.\n \nFWIW, my curiosity on this subject was first piqued not by the story itself as much as the\nForeword to the second edition of LOTR where Tolkien notes about the writing of the book- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"And it had to be typed and re-typed: by me; the cost of professional typing by the \nten-fingered was beyond my means\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps he only meant \"ten-fingered\" in contrast to his own two-finger hunt and peck \nmethod. But the nine-fingered condition of both the the primary hero and primary villain\nof the story has always made me wonder about this. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DFF6EDC.1080309@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-06-20T16:01:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/20/2011 9:42 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Left hand was fully present:\nhttp://www.historycentral.com/bio/people/Tolkien.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Same for the right:\nhttp://curiouspresbyterian.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/j-r-r-tolkien-news-novelty-version-of-lord-of-the-rings-translated-from-russian/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks Jeff. I think the left hand is clearly shown to be complete. Unfortunately,\nlike every other photo I've found, the right hand shot may leave room for the ring\nfinger to be missing the top piece. Deliberate posing and photo cropping? Or coincidence?\nPerhaps I'll never know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Zooming in with a photo editor shows a shiny nail on the final digit. \nWhich makes it whole, or an intentional fake prosthetic, like James \nDoohan used on occasion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4DFF6F0B.8060803@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-06-20T16:02:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lame Protagonists", "in_reply_to": "<4DFF6EDC.1080309@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/20/2011 11:01 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 6/20/2011 9:42 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Left hand was fully present:\nhttp://www.historycentral.com/bio/people/Tolkien.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Same for the right:\nhttp://curiouspresbyterian.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/j-r-r-tolkien-news-novelty-version-of-lord-of-the-rings-translated-from-russian/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thanks Jeff. I think the left hand is clearly shown to be complete.\nUnfortunately,\nlike every other photo I've found, the right hand shot may leave room\nfor the ring\nfinger to be missing the top piece. Deliberate posing and photo\ncropping? Or coincidence?\nPerhaps I'll never know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Zooming in with a photo editor shows a shiny nail on the final digit.\nWhich makes it whole, or an intentional fake prosthetic, like James\nDoohan used on occasion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excuse me; \"on the final joint of the digit in question\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }