{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6045", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6045, "subject": "choices", "messages": 28, "voices": 13, "first": "2011-08-04T21:02:10+00:00", "last": "2011-09-19T16:32:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4E3B08D2.1040504@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-08-04T21:02:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear members -\n\nI didn't vote (just missed the vote), but I am\npuzzled by the fact that two of the books sometimes chosen\n(Thomas Covenant and Elric) were truly repulsive to me. I tried to \nanalyse why,\nin case of Elric I concluded that it seems to me full of (slightly \nveiled) plagiarism\non the level of ideas and images, but in case of Thomas Covenant I could \nnot find\na rational explanation (the same with other books by the same author). Most\nof the rest I like very much myself.\n\nAll the best\n\nSergei Soloviev" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E3B18A8.1090808@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-04T22:09:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<4E3B08D2.1040504@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) I remember distinctly that the Covenant Chronicles just ran out of steam.\n\n2) It is a slightly veiled plagiarism of the Sword of Shanara (which was \na plagiarism of The Lord of the Rings. But then so were so many other \nfantasy books of the late 70s.\n\nAs a teen, I was revolted by the rape at the beginning of volume 1 and \nchunked the book for about a year. Then I picked it up and moved on. \nUltimately, I liked it pretty well. Enough to buy book 2 with \nanticipation which I thought was even better. But book 3 just fell off a \ncliff. Total waste of time for me. I had very specific theories about \nwhy the ending failed but I can't remember what they were. However, I \nknew people who were absolutely crazy about Donaldson in the early 80s. \nNot so much now I'm afraid, which I have always credited to the dreadful \nfollow-up trilogy. It could be that the book captured some zeitgeist at \nthe time. I hardly ever hear about it now. I wonder how the first \ntrilogy reads for young people who pick it up for the first time now, 35 \nyears later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/4/2011 4:02 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nDear members -\n\nI didn't vote (just missed the vote), but I am\npuzzled by the fact that two of the books sometimes chosen\n(Thomas Covenant and Elric) were truly repulsive to me. I tried to \nanalyse why,\nin case of Elric I concluded that it seems to me full of (slightly \nveiled) plagiarism\non the level of ideas and images, but in case of Thomas Covenant I \ncould not find\na rational explanation (the same with other books by the same author). \nMost\nof the rest I like very much myself.\n\nAll the best\n\nSergei Soloviev\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<92DD8E0F9B754CC680D8A8E1BA5B7E46@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T13:57:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<4E3B18A8.1090808@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nAs a teen, I was revolted by the rape at the beginning of volume 1 and \nchunked the book for about a year. Then I picked it up and moved on. \nUltimately, I liked it pretty well. Enough to buy book 2 with anticipation \nwhich I thought was even better. But book 3 just fell off a cliff. Total \nwaste of time for me. I had very specific theories about why the ending \nfailed but I can't remember what they were. However, I knew people who \nwere absolutely crazy about Donaldson in the early 80s. Not so much now \nI'm afraid, which I have always credited to the dreadful follow-up \ntrilogy. It could be that the book captured some zeitgeist at the time. I \nhardly ever hear about it now. I wonder how the first trilogy reads for \nyoung people who pick it up for the first time now, 35 years later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually started midstream, I think with the Illearth War, and only read \nLord Foul's Bane later. Oddly enough, I liked the second trilogy better - I \nthink it seemed more of a fantasy adventure. I know this is a minority \nviewpoint.\n\nLike it or not, its influence on the genre cannot be denied. It's very \nvisible in Wolfe's Wizard Kinght, for example.\n\nDonaldson is working on a third trilogy now - at least one (The Runes of the \nEarth) is out a few years ago. I found it readable but a bit repetitive. \nBut that probably goes with the territory. [One thing I have never \nunderstood is the popularity of Donaldson's other fantasy series Mordant's \nNeed - I read about one and a half of the two books and then gave up; the \nonly thing I know that beats it for repetition and obvious villains is \nHubbard's Mission Earth!]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<29074EEC-377A-4C2F-A50B-DC11EABD9160@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T13:57:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<4E3B18A8.1090808@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a lot about Thomas Covenant worth returning to. I think the initial repulsiveness is the point. I don't know how many people I've heard say they stopped when they get to the rape and never come back. But Covenant is supposed to be a despicable dude. I think in the end he hates himself more than we hate him. He's not a reluctant hero, he's an unwilling and self loathing hero. The adventures themselves are often Tolkienesque, but the context is anything but.\n\nAnd someone once tried to tell me that Donaldson's love of weird words was Wolfean. But...no. Donaldson just loves his thesaurus and throws in completely random vocab at odd times. Wolfe has reasons, and his words are much more calculated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 4, 2011, at 5:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n1) I remember distinctly that the Covenant Chronicles just ran out of steam.\n\n2) It is a slightly veiled plagiarism of the Sword of Shanara (which was a plagiarism of The Lord of the Rings. But then so were so many other fantasy books of the late 70s.\n\nAs a teen, I was revolted by the rape at the beginning of volume 1 and chunked the book for about a year. Then I picked it up and moved on. Ultimately, I liked it pretty well. Enough to buy book 2 with anticipation which I thought was even better. But book 3 just fell off a cliff. Total waste of time for me. I had very specific theories about why the ending failed but I can't remember what they were. However, I knew people who were absolutely crazy about Donaldson in the early 80s. Not so much now I'm afraid, which I have always credited to the dreadful follow-up trilogy. It could be that the book captured some zeitgeist at the time. I hardly ever hear about it now. I wonder how the first trilogy reads for young people who pick it up for the first time now, 35 years later.\n\nOn 8/4/2011 4:02 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dear members -\n\nI didn't vote (just missed the vote), but I am\npuzzled by the fact that two of the books sometimes chosen\n(Thomas Covenant and Elric) were truly repulsive to me. I tried to analyse why,\nin case of Elric I concluded that it seems to me full of (slightly veiled) plagiarism\non the level of ideas and images, but in case of Thomas Covenant I could not find\na rational explanation (the same with other books by the same author). Most\nof the rest I like very much myself.\n\nAll the best\n\nSergei Soloviev\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E3C0CB0.7090300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T15:30:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<92DD8E0F9B754CC680D8A8E1BA5B7E46@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "villains" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Time for another query. Who are your favourite arch-villains? I mean, those \nwho really rejoice in their villainy? Almost cartoonishly? (cartoon villains \ndon't count)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T15:33:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<4E3C0CB0.7090300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vladimir Harkonnen.\n\n2011/8/5 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "villains" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Time for another query. Who are your favourite arch-villains? I mean, those\nwho really rejoice in their villainy? Almost cartoonishly? (cartoon villains\ndon't count)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<28A0D817-5B8B-4F3D-8D75-541FAF53445B@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T15:46:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gross. \n\nInspector Glokta in the First Law trilogy is a villain of sorts. Same for Bayaz, who I still like. Not Khalul though. \n\nI know this isn't literary, but Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars always seemed rather cool. I think I'd have chosen him over Yoda. \n\nI can't actually think of another book I've read with a defined \"villain.\" I sort of hate the Lannisters, so they're out. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:33 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nVladimir Harkonnen.\n\n2011/8/5 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "villains" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Time for another query. Who are your favourite arch-villains? I mean, those\nwho really rejoice in their villainy? Almost cartoonishly? (cartoon villains\ndon't count)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1312559214.38465.YahooMailNeo@web121007.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T15:46:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(cartoon villains don't count)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aw, man! Dr. Doofenshmertz from Phineas and Ferb deserves a mention. (For those without kids, that show deserves a watch or two.)\n\nAnd this may sound lame among our more \"literary\" minded sf/f readers on this list, but one of the things that always stuck with me from the Dragonlance books was the relationship between Raistlin and Takhisis, the big bad queen of darkness. The weird power struggle between them seemed the best written aspect of that series. So she gets my vote for being much more than I expected given what that series was supposed to be." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T15:52:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<28A0D817-5B8B-4F3D-8D75-541FAF53445B@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nI know this isn't literary, but Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars always seemed rather cool. I think I'd have chosen him over Yoda." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought of him but decided he'd been ruined for me in the\nsecond/first trilogy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7C6FD671-9E56-4D5A-9EF2-614F0FA5C6BE@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T15:59:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I pretend they don't exist... then they don't. \n\nI thought of another, sort of. Yod in Sean William's \"Books of the Change/Cataclysm.\" And, I suppose, his servants like Jibreel and the energumen. Though that's more like transcendent Lovecraftian evil and madmen who worship it. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:52 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nOn Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know this isn't literary, but Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars always seemed rather cool. I think I'd have chosen him over Yoda." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought of him but decided he'd been ruined for me in the\nsecond/first trilogy.\n\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7BB818598EEA466587192D1C0DE05A64@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T16:01:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<4E3C0CB0.7090300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nIt was written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "villains" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Time for another query. Who are your favourite arch-villains? I mean, \nthose who really rejoice in their villainy? Almost cartoonishly? (cartoon \nvillains don't count)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is rejoicing in one's villainy really a necessary characteristic of a good \nvillain? It seems hard to avoid cartoonishness in such - the example that \nsprings to mind is the Archimandrite in Iain M. Banks' _The Algebraist_.\n\nMy favourite villian is Casmir in Jack Vance's _Lyonesse_, but he doesn't \nreally rejoice in his villainy, and would probably find arguments to justify \nall his actions.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T16:07:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<7BB818598EEA466587192D1C0DE05A64@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nMy favourite villian is Casmir in Jack Vance's _Lyonesse_, but he doesn't\nreally rejoice in his villainy, and would probably find arguments to justify\nall his actions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ooooh. Vance's \"Demon Princes\" are classic villains." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2B4AE9A3-BA3B-4D96-9C99-686161F8108F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T16:11:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about Arioch? Sure, he's \"evil,\" in the sense that he wants chaos, but isn't that in keeping with his nature? I guess I never saw Arioch as really immoral or twisted, just... alien?\n\nOr for that matter, the Chaosians or Random in \"The Chronicles of Amber.\" They are antagonists, I suppose, but what, in an absolute sense, makes them any worse than Merlin or Corwin?\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:07 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nOn Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My favourite villian is Casmir in Jack Vance's _Lyonesse_, but he doesn't\nreally rejoice in his villainy, and would probably find arguments to justify\nall his actions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ooooh. Vance's \"Demon Princes\" are classic villains.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T16:20:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Looking back at my choices, I have discovered an interesting fact\nabout my moral philosophy. I am ready to absolve cosmic entities of\nmoral guilt/evil because they transcend human experience. For\ninstance, I'm not sure I considered the Hieros villanous even though\nthey do some pretty beastly stuff to Severian and later Urth. The\nhuman-constrained notions of morality simply stop to apply once the\nscale gets big enough.\n\nOn the other hand, a limited human that nevertheless acts with\nneedless or irrational cruelty, or supreme dishonesty, always get my\nmoral censure. Typhon or the Lannister family (sorry, I just read the\nnew ASOIAF novel and it's fresh in my mind how much I hate this one\nfamily) are petty pushers of maliciousness when compared to someone\nthat will drown a whole world with a white hole to throw in the middle\nof a dying sun, but I think they're worse for that. They'll fiddle\nwhile Rome burns, and that's less excusable than being the Ostrogoth\nwith the torch.\n\nBut I have less sympathy for a human that willingly chooses\nsubservience to a cosmic evil, like the Consult/Mangaecca in Bakker's\n\"Prince of Nothing\" trilogy. Not that Kellhus is necessarily any\nbetter, because he just wants to control everyone and everything to\nsettle up some serious daddy issues, but at least he's directing his\npsychosis in the right direction.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My favourite villian is Casmir in Jack Vance's _Lyonesse_, but he doesn't\nreally rejoice in his villainy, and would probably find arguments to justify\nall his actions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ooooh. Vance's \"Demon Princes\" are classic villains.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T16:22:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<2B4AE9A3-BA3B-4D96-9C99-686161F8108F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was going to suggest Bomb Voyage from The Incredibles. Just Kidding.\n\nAlthough I think you'll find film villains more close to what Antonio was asking about, since the medium tends to cartoonize literary villains for cinematic effect.\n\nHannibal Lecter springs to mind, amongst others. Buffalo Bill in that same film for that matter. Jack Torance in The Shining, although the spirits haunting the grounds probably the true villain there.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 5, 2011, at 12:11 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nWhat about Arioch? Sure, he's \"evil,\" in the sense that he wants chaos, but isn't that in keeping with his nature? I guess I never saw Arioch as really immoral or twisted, just... alien?\n\nOr for that matter, the Chaosians or Random in \"The Chronicles of Amber.\" They are antagonists, I suppose, but what, in an absolute sense, makes them any worse than Merlin or Corwin?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Aug 5, 2011, at 11:07 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My favourite villian is Casmir in Jack Vance's _Lyonesse_, but he doesn't\nreally rejoice in his villainy, and would probably find arguments to justify\nall his actions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ooooh. Vance's \"Demon Princes\" are classic villains.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1312561595.43102.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T16:26:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<28A0D817-5B8B-4F3D-8D75-541FAF53445B@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 2011/8/5 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " It was written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " villains" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Time for another query. Who are your favourite arch-villains? I mean, \nthose\n who really rejoice in their villainy? Almost cartoonishly? (cartoon \nvillains\n don't count)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sauron and the Lord of the Nazgul.\n\nAre Tanith Lee's Lords of Darkness villains?\n\nI liked Mordred in /The Once and Future King/, and he seemed to rejoice, sort of, in his villainy. Mordred in /Camelot/ definitely does, more simply but with a charming song.\n\nBy the way, Antonio, in answer to your question about the Lensman books: Yes. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:33 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Vladimir Harkonnen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lane Haygood " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "G ross." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree he's a good choice, but I'd say he's no worse than lots of other characters, except for his tendency to rape slave-boys.\n\nSpeaking of fat owners of sex slaves, I'd like to put in a word for Sencho be-L'vandor (sp?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't actually think of another book I've read with a defined \n\"villain.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You haven't read LotR?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2011-08-05T18:10:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<1312561595.43102.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I love to hate Gormentghast's Steerpike. Boo, hiss!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n?2011/8/5 Ant?nio Pedro Marques :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "“It was written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "?villains" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "?Time for another query. Who are your favourite arch-villains” I mean,\nthose\n“who really rejoice in their villainy” Almost cartoonishly? (cartoon\nvillains\n“don't count)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sauron and the Lord of the Nazgul.\n\nAre Tanith Lee's Lords of Darkness villains”\n\nI liked Mordred in /The Once and Future King/, and he seemed to rejoice, sort of, in his villainy. Mordred in /Camelot/ definitely does, more simply but with a charming song.\n\nBy the way, Antonio, in answer to your question about the Lensman books: Yes. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:33 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\"\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "“Vladimir Harkonnen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lane Haygood " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "G ross." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree he's a good choice, but I'd say he's no worse than lots of other characters, except for his tendency to rape slave-boys.\n\nSpeaking of fat owners of sex slaves, I'd like to put in a word for Sencho be-L'vandor (sp”)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't actually think of another book I've read with a defined\n\"villain.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You haven't read LotR?\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1312579715.86009.YahooMailClassic@web161817.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T21:28:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Fri, 8/5/11, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although I think you'll find film villains more close to\nwhat Antonio was asking about, since the medium tends to\ncartoonize literary villains for cinematic effect.\n\nHannibal Lecter springs to mind, amongst others. Buffalo\nBill in that same film for that matter. Jack Torance in The\nShining, although the spirits haunting the grounds probably\nthe true villain there.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, the best villainous fellows are captured in film: Kronos in highlander with his distorted musketeer mentality, breeding a virus to nonsensically destroy everything, or someone like the General in Fist of Legend, who argues with his colleague about what it is to follow Bushido before breaking his back and blaming the Chinese for his death - that argument is awesome - to paraphrase, \"I was supposed to win that fight so faar and square, how could you poison him? It is not the way of the warrior.\" \"What do you know about the way of the warrior? It is to obey the emperor, to do what must be done, regardless of consequences, even to be reviled and scorned throughout eternity etc etc.\"\n\nBut I did like that bad guy in Vance's The Face, just a great ending. \"I never want to see your ugly face looking over my wall again.\" heh heh heh.\n\n{I have a vague suspicion that Severian is a rather villainous apologist, like Number Five and Weer. Latro and Silk are heroes, though.}" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E3C68B5.4000003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-05T22:03:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<1312579715.86009.YahooMailClassic@web161817.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like the conniving wife in the movie \"Ran\". In literature, Regan in \n\"King Lear\" and Iago in \"Othello\" are what we are talking about right?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3F741242-B0CF-4500-B01F-1169D06157E9@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-06T03:05:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<4E3C68B5.4000003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 05/08/2011, ?s 23:03, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like the conniving wife in the movie \"Ran\". In literature, Regan in \"King Lear\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Iago in \"Othello\" are what we are talking about right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've only seen the movie :P" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<60032435-78C1-4EFC-A0F4-6573DDF5AE8C@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-06T03:13:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<1312561595.43102.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you all for the input. I think it's very hard to create good villains, the more so of the kind I asked, while still having them believable and in line with the story. \n\nNo dia 05/08/2011, ?s 17:26, Jerry Friedman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, Antonio, in answer to your question about the Lensman books: Yes. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm devastated. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1312600656.76966.YahooMailClassic@web161812.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-08-06T03:17:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<2B4AE9A3-BA3B-4D96-9C99-686161F8108F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 8/5/11, Lane Haygood wrote:\nOr for that matter, the Chaosians or Random in \"The\nChronicles of Amber.\" They are antagonists, I suppose, but\nwhat, in an absolute sense, makes them any worse than Merlin\nor Corwin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean Brand or less probably Erik, not Random, right? Random's a pretty decent guy as far as Amber goes ... :) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<66FE8286-6AB6-43EB-A929-D9179F77DA63@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-06T04:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<1312600656.76966.YahooMailClassic@web161812.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Got those two confused. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:17 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On Fri, 8/5/11, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or for that matter, the Chaosians or Random in \"The\nChronicles of Amber.\" They are antagonists, I suppose, but\nwhat, in an absolute sense, makes them any worse than Merlin\nor Corwin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean Brand or less probably Erik, not Random, right? Random's a pretty decent guy as far as Amber goes ... :) \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-06T08:01:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<66FE8286-6AB6-43EB-A929-D9179F77DA63@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was getting worried I'd missed something in the story!\nI think you can't really say Brand is no worse than the others.\n\nNo dia 2011/08/06, ?s 05:44, Lane Haygood \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Got those two confused.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Aug 5, 2011, at 10:17 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Fri, 8/5/11, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or for that matter, the Chaosians or Random in \"The\nChronicles of Amber.\" They are antagonists, I suppose, but\nwhat, in an absolute sense, makes them any worse than Merlin\nor Corwin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You mean Brand or less probably Erik, not Random, right? Random's a \npretty decent guy as far as Amber goes ... :)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E3D92AB.9000408@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-08-06T19:14:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<4E3B08D2.1040504@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/4/2011 4:02 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nDear members -\n\nI didn't vote (just missed the vote), but I am\npuzzled by the fact that two of the books sometimes chosen\n(Thomas Covenant and Elric) were truly repulsive to me. I tried to\nanalyse why,\nin case of Elric I concluded that it seems to me full of (slightly\nveiled) plagiarism\non the level of ideas and images" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could you say more about why Elric is repulsive? I mean, I know he's an \nantihero in the literal sense, intentionally being written to have \nopposite attributes to Conan, for instance, but I didn't catch any \nveiled plagiarism or excessive quotation, but that might be out of lack \nof familiarity with previous genre material." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E3D976A.10606@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-08-06T19:35:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<7BB818598EEA466587192D1C0DE05A64@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/5/2011 11:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "villains" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Time for another query. Who are your favourite arch-villains? I mean,\nthose who really rejoice in their villainy? Almost cartoonishly?\n(cartoon villains don't count)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is rejoicing in one's villainy really a necessary characteristic of a\ngood villain? It seems hard to avoid cartoonishness in such - the\nexample that springs to mind is the Archimandrite in Iain M. Banks' _The\nAlgebraist_.\n\nMy favourite villian is Casmir in Jack Vance's _Lyonesse_, but he\ndoesn't really rejoice in his villainy, and would probably find\narguments to justify all his actions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This.\n\nMohammed Vance in Daniel Keys Moran's THE LONG RUN and other Continuing \nTime Books is in fact a mostly decent, honorable person who sincerely \nbelieves in his democratically elected world government is the only hope \nfor long-term peace and the ultimate survival of humanity, and pursues \nhis job to put down the ungrateful rebellious Americans without mercy.\n\nBabylon 5's Mr Bester, on the other hand, is a vicious brainwashing \nweasel pack leader who is too damaged to really enjoy himself but he \ndoes display a sort of consolation prize of amusement that he is so \noften able to use crime, politics, and war as a pretext to further his \npower to take away the freedoms and families of everyone who crosses \nhim, in repayment for the way their democratically elected world \ngovernment did to him, twice." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2011-09-19T06:06:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "<1312559214.38465.YahooMailNeo@web121007.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n(cartoon villains don't count)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aw, man! Dr. Doofenshmertz from Phineas and Ferb deserves a mention. (For\nthose without kids, that show deserves a watch or two.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just wanted to quickly thank you, Craig, for mentioning this show. It's\nbecome my four-year-old daughter's favorite, and is in fact looked forward\nto by the whole family." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3C0867195E5D48FB82B1D179E1FCA958@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2011-09-19T16:32:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) choices", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, September 18, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Allan Anderson wrote:\nOn Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(cartoon villains don't count)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aw, man! Dr. Doofenshmertz from Phineas and Ferb deserves a mention. (For those without kids, that show deserves a watch or two.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just wanted to quickly thank you, Craig, for mentioning this show. It's become my four-year-old daughter's favorite, and is in fact looked forward to by the whole family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. My son got turned onto Phineas & Ferb recently and we've been working through all the episodes. Such a great show!. \nDr Doofenshmertz is the bestinator!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Son of Witz" } ] } ] }