{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6047", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6047, "subject": "completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "messages": 10, "voices": 6, "first": "2011-08-08T17:11:34+00:00", "last": "2011-08-10T04:52:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4E4018C6.3030407@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-08-08T17:11:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(by error I have sent unfinished message)\nThis is the completed version -\n\nDear Jeff,\n\nI didn' t write that the heroes (or anti-heroes) - Covenant and Elric -\nwere repulsive to me. I wrote\nthat the books were (their authors writing style). I don't remember to\nbe shocked by the \"rape\nscene\" from Donaldson (I was not a teen), but I remember an intense\ndislike of how the\nbook was written.\n\nI glanced at the \"Elric\". I have to admit that this time (after many\nyears) my dislike\nwas much less, I was just bored.\n\nI'll try to explain. There is no doubt that Moorcock is quite an\nerudite. But I don't like\nhow he uses his erudition. To me it is like a badly done theatric\nbackground - the pieces\nof this and that squeezed into some rough picture.\n\nIt is told that Elrik is in some way antagonist to the heroes of\nTolkien. To Conan, that\nyou mention, as well.\n\nBut Tolkien used his knowledge of history, folklore, languages to create\ndepth, what is most impressive in his \"Lord of the Rings\" is more than \n10000 years of history subtly influencing the present.\n\nHoward was young and while his knowledge of history, geography etc\nis sometimes ridiculous, his books thrive with vital energy,\nthat is completely absent in Moorcock's...\n\nMy impression was that Moorcock simply borrows the elements\nfor his story.\n\n- Melnibone looks (from the point of view of history\nand background) as Numenor in the \"Lord of the Rings\".\n\n- Its labirynth is borrowed from the stories about Atlantis.\n\n- Master torturer in Elric story - hybrid of torture device\nfrom \"In the penal colony\" by Kafka:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "an elaborate torture and " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "execution device that carves the sentence of the condemned prisoner on his\nskin in a script before letting him die (Wiki)\nand some stories about Chinese torture.\n\n- The idea that the (future) villain is an Albino is also an n-th reuse\nof similar ideas (great literary villain - Uriah Heep by Dickens, there \nwere many villains of that type afterwards - recent - Malfoys in Potter \nstories)\n\n- It seems that he uses some provocative symbolism without any real need\n(his \"pulsing cavern\" reminds very much an anatomic description of\nhuman or animal colon), I think it is also borrowed from medieval\nsymbolism (bowels of the devil), but used clumsily.\n\n- Gold-plated ships - it is just not practical.\n\nOf course my remarks are subjective, I think it is bad (artless) use of\ninteresting sources - that his sources are more interesting than the\nresult.\n\nAll the best\n\nSergei Soloviev" } ] }, { "message_id": "<68C7293C23F5490E823FD1179CCE4DFE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-08-09T11:24:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": "<4E4018C6.3030407@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- Master torturer in Elric story - hybrid of torture device\nfrom \"In the penal colony\" by Kafka:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "an elaborate torture and\nexecution device that carves the sentence of the condemned prisoner on his\nskin in a script before letting him die (Wiki)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe also pinched that idea! It is one of the devices shown by Gurloes to \nThecla before her excruciation, though he mentions that it does not work.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E41669E.5070704@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-08-09T16:55:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": "<68C7293C23F5490E823FD1179CCE4DFE@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n----- Original Message -----\n- Master torturer in Elric story - hybrid of torture device\nfrom \"In the penal colony\" by Kafka:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "an elaborate torture and\nexecution device that carves the sentence of the condemned prisoner \non his\nskin in a script before letting him die (Wiki)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe also pinched that idea! It is one of the devices shown by \nGurloes to Thecla before her excruciation, though he mentions that it \ndoes not work.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly! And look how Wolfe uses it. In his book it is part of \n\"historical lecture\" by Gurloes, so,\nit is a token of immense depth of time. It is woven into the subtle \nfabrics of references\nto our own time, like the photograph of lunar landing (or maybe its \npainted copy) cleaned by\nRudesund, like the Pope's translation of Homer used in Chrasmologic \nwritings and many\nothers. (Notice also that the machine breaks in the end of Kafka's \nstory, and Gurloes says\nit does not work.) The meanings and references play beautifully.\n\nAnd if we take Moorcock, the use is quite the opposite. He takes a rich \ndeep story and \"flattens\"\nit to suit in some very straightforward way his purposes. So his \ntorturer is just a sadist, and he\nborrows the image, using only the idea of extreme cruelty.\n\nIt comes to my mind to compare three torturers: Gurloes (complex man who \ntries to look\nsimple brute) - by Wolfe; Nolieti in the Inversions by Banks who is a \nreal brute but his\nbrutishness is described with great skill by Banks, so he has \ninteresting human dimension\n(he tries to use the teeth of his victims as his own prostheses) and the \nmain hero Vosill\neven tries to negotiate with him because she cannot believe that he may \nbe truly so brutish;\nand Dr. Jest of Moorcock borrowed from other contexts and transformed \ninto one-dimensional\nsadist. I think the Wolfe's is the best on literary scale and Moorcock's \nthe worst (no talent,\nno imagination and even no honest references to the sources).\n\nAnother example (I have forgotten to mention it) is that Arioch is \nborrowed from\n\"The Lord of the Flies\" by Golding (he comes as a fly to Elric) and\nthe whole tradition concerning Beelzebub, and again flattened very much\n(though at least he is not one-dimensional character).\n\nI still had no time to analyse Donaldson.\n\nBest\n\nSergei Soloviev" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-08-09T22:40:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": "<4E41669E.5070704@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nAnd if we take Moorcock, the use is quite the opposite. He takes a rich deep \nstory and \"flattens\" it to suit in some very straightforward way his \npurposes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Moorcock's more complex works are the Cornelius novels, _Byzantium \nEndures_ series, _Gloriana_, Dancers At the End of Time_, _Behold the \nMan_, _Warlord of the Air_ and its sequels. The Elric stuff was written \nat great speed, and it shows (he would write a short novel in three days \n;)).\n\nSo, I don't think it's quite a fair comparison. The allusiveness and \nstrangeness of the Cornelius novels is a better place to start, if you are \nlooking for depth.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-10T00:03:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:40 PM, David Duffy wrote:\n\nMoorcock's more complex works are the Cornelius novels, _Byzantium Endures_\nseries, _Gloriana_, Dancers At the End of Time_, _Behold the Man_, _Warlord\nof the Air_ and its sequels. The Elric stuff was written at great speed,\nand it shows (he would write a short novel in three days ;)).\n\nSo, I don't think it's quite a fair comparison. The allusiveness and\nstrangeness of the Cornelius novels is a better place to start, if you are\nlooking for depth.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mostly agree with this statement, though I'm not sure if I'd include the\nWarlord of the Air/Nomad of the Time Streams books among Moorcock's \"more\ncomplex.\" Moorcock has stated he wrote them as didactic novels; his\nprotagonist moves through a variety of alternate worlds and encounters a\nnumber of straw men societies, none of which really convince.\n\nOn the other hand, the Warlord books are great if you're ever in the mood\nfor a steampunk alternate history featuring mecha-Stalin vs. the a-bomb...\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-08-10T01:38:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": "<4E41669E.5070704@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Moorcock's also said on many occasions that the Elric stories were exercises in a kind of pastiche of reversals. Recognizing elements that are lifted from other works and then used in certain generically deliberate and/or artificial ways isn't so much recognizing plaigiarisim as intention.\n\nThe fact that they've become his most famous books is something of a disappointment to him in some of his interviews, too (despite the fact that he keeps writing them...we all gotta eat, I guess). And they do read better when you think of them as quickly written thought experiments rather than \"epic fantasy.\" In the end, he's kind of, \"Hey, what if Conan was smart, over-cultured, and weak but had the same adventures?\" At a certain point, the premise plays itself out, but I still enjoy the premise for what it was.\n\nAnd I'm with the others that his literary merit is MUCH better judged according to the Cornelius books. The End of Time series is my personal favorite." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 9, 2011, at 11:55 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----- Original Message -----\n- Master torturer in Elric story - hybrid of torture device\nfrom \"In the penal colony\" by Kafka:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "an elaborate torture and\nexecution device that carves the sentence of the condemned prisoner on his\nskin in a script before letting him die (Wiki)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe also pinched that idea! It is one of the devices shown by Gurloes to Thecla before her excruciation, though he mentions that it does not work.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly! And look how Wolfe uses it. In his book it is part of \"historical lecture\" by Gurloes, so,\nit is a token of immense depth of time. It is woven into the subtle fabrics of references\nto our own time, like the photograph of lunar landing (or maybe its painted copy) cleaned by\nRudesund, like the Pope's translation of Homer used in Chrasmologic writings and many\nothers. (Notice also that the machine breaks in the end of Kafka's story, and Gurloes says\nit does not work.) The meanings and references play beautifully.\n\nAnd if we take Moorcock, the use is quite the opposite. He takes a rich deep story and \"flattens\"\nit to suit in some very straightforward way his purposes. So his torturer is just a sadist, and he\nborrows the image, using only the idea of extreme cruelty.\n\nIt comes to my mind to compare three torturers: Gurloes (complex man who tries to look\nsimple brute) - by Wolfe; Nolieti in the Inversions by Banks who is a real brute but his\nbrutishness is described with great skill by Banks, so he has interesting human dimension\n(he tries to use the teeth of his victims as his own prostheses) and the main hero Vosill\neven tries to negotiate with him because she cannot believe that he may be truly so brutish;\nand Dr. Jest of Moorcock borrowed from other contexts and transformed into one-dimensional\nsadist. I think the Wolfe's is the best on literary scale and Moorcock's the worst (no talent,\nno imagination and even no honest references to the sources).\n\nAnother example (I have forgotten to mention it) is that Arioch is borrowed from\n\"The Lord of the Flies\" by Golding (he comes as a fly to Elric) and\nthe whole tradition concerning Beelzebub, and again flattened very much\n(though at least he is not one-dimensional character).\n\nI still had no time to analyse Donaldson.\n\nBest\n\nSergei Soloviev\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-08-10T02:26:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nOn the other hand, the Warlord books are great if you're ever in the mood\nfor a steampunk alternate history featuring mecha-Stalin vs. the a-bomb..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be argued that he is partly responsible for the steampunk glut." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1312944307.54952.YahooMailNeo@web121007.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-08-10T02:45:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As long as we're all in a non-Wolfe-talking mood, does anyone have any recommendations for GOOD steampunk? I've only read a spattering (Vandermeer, Mieville, and random others), but I'd be interested to know of things that people enjoy that weren't written just to fit a fad.\n\n(One note: from my largely inattentive observation: most of the really interesting steampunk stuff happens in sculpture and gadgetry, not writing. Is that valid?) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nOn the other hand, the Warlord books are great if you're ever in the mood\nfor a steampunk alternate history featuring mecha-Stalin vs. the a-bomb..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be argued that he is partly responsible for the steampunk glut." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2011-08-10T03:20:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": "<1312944307.54952.YahooMailNeo@web121007.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Craig Brewer wrote:\nAs long as we're all in a non-Wolfe-talking mood, does anyone have any \nrecommendations for GOOD steampunk? I've only read a spattering \n(Vandermeer, Mieville, and random others), but I'd be interested to know \nof things that people enjoy that weren't written just to fit a fad." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I quite like _The Difference Engine_, but get the impression I am in a \nminority there. Blaylock is often included as a 'punk, but at the more \nfantastical end. Christopher Priest's _The Space Engine_ isn't strictly \nspeaking, or is it?\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1312951974.86270.YahooMailNeo@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-08-10T04:52:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) completed version - Donaldson, Moorcock etc", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Craig Brewer " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I'm with the others that his literary merit is MUCH better judged \naccording to the Cornelius books. The End of Time series is my personal \nfavorite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is, the four Cornelius books in /The Cornelius Chronicles/. I deny that I ever read /The Cornelius Chronicles, Volume 2/ (and the second Amber series). Also, I'd say you have to read all four of the books in TCC, even when things get really strange (like the surrealistic version of /Stand on Zanzibar/). Otherwise you might think you were just in for a rewrite of the Elric books in Ladbroke Grove, or so I'm told. Though you might be able to make do with the introduction by John Clute.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }