NPR Results The Urth list — 26 messages, 10 voices, 11 Aug 2011 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6049 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Antonin Scriabin — 11 Aug 2011, 14:39 http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books The Book of the New Sun clocked in at #87. Appalling original list, and terrible final results, but at the end of the day, maybe people will check out Wolfe after seeing his book listed here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Greg Bates — 11 Aug 2011, 14:54 in reply to Antonin Scriabin Well, at least it beat the EU Star Wars tripe. By one spot. :-( On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books > > The Book of the New Sun clocked in at #87. Appalling original list, and > terrible final results, but at the end of the day, maybe people will check > out Wolfe after seeing his book listed here. > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lane Haygood — 11 Aug 2011, 15:09 in reply to Greg Bates This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the gentle crack of the overseer's whips? I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education. LH > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Greg Bates wrote: > Well, at least it beat the EU Star Wars tripe. By one spot. :-( > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Antonin Scriabin > wrote: > > http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books > > > > The Book of the New Sun clocked in at #87. Appalling original list, and > > terrible final results, but at the end of the day, maybe people will check > > out Wolfe after seeing his book listed here. > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Antonin Scriabin — 11 Aug 2011, 15:16 in reply to Lane Haygood I agree about the gulags! Anyways, this list is especially embarrassing since NPR listeners have a (vague) reputation for being intellectuals, and a cut above the typical reader. Guess not. I see a lot of stuff on the list that I was really into when I was 8-10 (Terry Brooks, David Eddings, etc.), then quickly outgrew when I realized that there was vastly superior science fiction and fantasy out there. I think a lot of the voting that went into this list was fueled by the nostalgia of people who never "grew-up" out of the formative junk that a lot of us cut our sci-fi teeth on as kids. > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. > > I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature > gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the > gentle crack of the overseer's whips? > > I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten > Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education. > > LH > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Greg Bates > wrote: > > Well, at least it beat the EU Star Wars tripe. By one spot. :-( > > > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Antonin Scriabin > > wrote: > http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books > > > The Book of the New Sun clocked in at #87. Appalling original list, and > > > terrible final results, but at the end of the day, maybe people will > > > check > > > out Wolfe after seeing his book listed here. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 11 Aug 2011, 15:36 in reply to Lane Haygood > On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. > > I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature > gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the > gentle crack of the overseer's whips? > > I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten > Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education. But who will spin the looms in the interim? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 11 Aug 2011, 15:40 in reply to Jeff Wilson People, it's just a popularity contest... > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > > This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. > > > > I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature > > gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the > > gentle crack of the overseer's whips? > > > > I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten > > Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education. > But who will spin the looms in the interim? > > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com > Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana > < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Greg Bates — 11 Aug 2011, 15:40 in reply to Jeff Wilson That's what audiobooks are for. > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > > This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. > > > > I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature > > gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the > > gentle crack of the overseer's whips? > > > > I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten > > Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education. > But who will spin the looms in the interim? > > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com > Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana > < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > > > ______________________________**_________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lane Haygood — 11 Aug 2011, 15:44 in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes All civilization is a popularity contest. I just wish smart things were more popular than pablum. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 11, 2011, at 10:40 AM, "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" wrote: > People, it's just a popularity contest... > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > > On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > > > This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. > > > > > > I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature > > > gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the > > > gentle crack of the overseer's whips? > > > > > > I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten > > > Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education. > > But who will spin the looms in the interim? > > > > > > -- > > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com > > Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana > > < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 11 Aug 2011, 15:45 in reply to Jeff Wilson > On 8/11/2011 10:36 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > > This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. > > > > I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature > > gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the > > gentle crack of the overseer's whips? > > > > I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten > > Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education. > But who will spin the looms in the interim? or er write the new books I guess. sorry, still decompressing from a 5 week lit crit bootcamp -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew Keeley — 11 Aug 2011, 16:00 in reply to Antonin Scriabin On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > I agree about the gulags! > > Anyways, this list is especially embarrassing since NPR listeners have a > (vague) reputation for being intellectuals, and a cut above the typical > reader. Guess not. As I recall, the thriller list from last year had writers like Stieg Larsson and Dan Brown in or very near the top spots, when really they shouldn't be within a thousand books of the top of the list. The top ten-odd choices on the sf list aren't all fantastic (I wouldn't put Hitchhiker's, Ender's Game, or GRRM there) and they reflect an unfamiliarity with the field at large, but they're mostly good books. If nothing else, I think the right book came in at number one. -Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lane Haygood — 11 Aug 2011, 16:12 in reply to Antonin Scriabin Also, NPR only seems more intellectual because its competition is pop music and "morning shows" run by two aging burnouts named Jack Dingo and Toadstool. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 11, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote: > I agree about the gulags! > > Anyways, this list is especially embarrassing since NPR listeners have a (vague) reputation for being intellectuals, and a cut above the typical reader. Guess not. I see a lot of stuff on the list that I was really into when I was 8-10 (Terry Brooks, David Eddings, etc.), then quickly outgrew when I realized that there was vastly superior science fiction and fantasy out there. I think a lot of the voting that went into this list was fueled by the nostalgia of people who never "grew-up" out of the formative junk that a lot of us cut our sci-fi teeth on as kids. > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. > > I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature > gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the > gentle crack of the overseer's whips? > > I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten > Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education. > > LH > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Greg Bates wrote: > > Well, at least it beat the EU Star Wars tripe. By one spot. :-( > > > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Antonin Scriabin > > wrote: > > > http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books > > > > > > The Book of the New Sun clocked in at #87. Appalling original list, and > > > terrible final results, but at the end of the day, maybe people will check > > > out Wolfe after seeing his book listed here. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 11 Aug 2011, 16:41 in reply to Lane Haygood I'm surprised how much of this I've read. I didn't think I've read that much SF. So, for whatever reason I've been tempted by those Elric books recently, even though they look like trash. Are they fun trash? Are they better than that Sword of Truth trash that was a bit of fun for a very short while? They were apparently a big influence on a writer I've begun collaborating with on a graphic novel. I feel like I should know the stuff, maybe if only to know if he's ripping something off from Elric, hehehe. Son of Witz > > > > > http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books > > > > > > > > > > The Book of the New Sun clocked in at #87. Appalling original list, and > > > > > terrible final results, but at the end of the day, maybe people will check > > > > > out Wolfe after seeing his book listed here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lane Haygood — 11 Aug 2011, 16:47 in reply to Son of Witz The Elric books (ANY Moorcock, for that matter) is in a different time zone than Goodkind's trash. Moorcock was a very subversive counterculture figure in the 60s and 70s and his books reflect it. Elric was written as the Anti-Conan, a sickly intellectual who concerns himself too much with ethics and turns to violence and demonology only as a last resort. But they are adventure tales in the grand S&S fashion. Still, they defined the dark heroic fantasy genre. I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 11, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Son of Witz wrote: > I'm surprised how much of this I've read. I didn't think I've read that much SF. > So, for whatever reason I've been tempted by those Elric books recently, even though they look like trash. > Are they fun trash? Are they better than that Sword of Truth trash that was a bit of fun for a very short while? > They were apparently a big influence on a writer I've begun collaborating with on a graphic novel. I feel like I should know the stuff, maybe if only to know if he's ripping something off from Elric, hehehe. > > > Son of Witz > > > > > > http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books > > > > > > > > > > > > The Book of the New Sun clocked in at #87. Appalling original list, and > > > > > > terrible final results, but at the end of the day, maybe people will check > > > > > > out Wolfe after seeing his book listed here. > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 11 Aug 2011, 16:50 in reply to Son of Witz > Son of Witz wrote: > I'm surprised how much of this I've read. I on the other hand was not surprised to learn that I'd read the overwhelming majority of these -- 76 of 100, and that's not counting a few that I started and gave up on. -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Wynn — 11 Aug 2011, 16:51 in reply to Lane Haygood Isn't this the punishment Thecla had to endure until her execution? J. > On 8/11/2011 10:09 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. > > I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature > gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the > gentle crack of the overseer's whips? > > I mean, people put "The Sword of Truth" and those drecky "Forgotten > Realms" novels ahead of Wolfe and Mieville? They NEED re-education. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 11 Aug 2011, 17:02 in reply to Lane Haygood > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > The Elric books (ANY Moorcock, for that matter) is in a different time zone > than Goodkind's trash. Well, *almost* every Moorcock -- there was his ERB ripoff written purely for money. > I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually. I can't go quite that far. It helps to understand that there appear to be two writers living in Michael Moorcock's head. One writes quick-and-dirty swords'n'sorcery like the majority of the EC books. These are not bad books by any means, but they don't go an inch beneath the surface. These would include -- just off the top of my head -- the Corum books, the Hawkmoon books, and the books simply labelled "eternal champion." Then there's the Moorcock who writes elegant "comedies" like GLORIANA, the Pyat quartet, and "the Dancers at the End of Time." These are remarkably good books, full of satire and wit. And there are quite a few of them -- I want to mention BEHOLD THE MAN, and THE WARHOUND AND THE WORLD'S PAIN, and the Oswald Bastable books (which are steampunk), and BREAKFAST IN THE RUINS, and and and... But, somewhere in the middle of these, are Elric and Jerry Cornelius ... oh my. Elric is a witty swords'n'sorcery series, almost a parody of s&s, but never failing to take its matter seriously in context. And Jerry Cornelius... well, some days I think Cornelius is Moorcock's crowning achievement; other days I think it's a vast hoax. Either way, I wouldn't be without the ten or so books that constitute the greater Cornelius Chronicles. Amazing stuff. To make things more confusing, Elric interacts with characters from both the "lower" tier and the "upper" tier (appearing now with Corum and Hawkmoon, and then in the End of Time...), and both of them (as well as a few characters in the "upper" tier) are aspects of that damned Eternal Champion. -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 11 Aug 2011, 17:39 in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > On Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Lane Haygood wrote: > > The Elric books (ANY Moorcock, for that matter) is in a different time zone > > than Goodkind's trash. > Well, *almost* every Moorcock -- there was his ERB ripoff written > purely for money. > > I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually. > I can't go quite that far. > > It helps to understand that there appear to be two writers living in > Michael Moorcock's head. One writes quick-and-dirty swords'n'sorcery > like the majority of the EC books. These are not bad books by any > means, but they don't go an inch beneath the surface. These would > include -- just off the top of my head -- the Corum books, the > Hawkmoon books, and the books simply labelled "eternal champion." > > Then there's the Moorcock who writes elegant "comedies" like GLORIANA, > the Pyat quartet, and "the Dancers at the End of Time." These are > remarkably good books, full of satire and wit. And there are quite a > few of them -- I want to mention BEHOLD THE MAN, and THE WARHOUND AND > THE WORLD'S PAIN, and the Oswald Bastable books (which are steampunk), > and BREAKFAST IN THE RUINS, and and and... > > But, somewhere in the middle of these, are Elric and Jerry Cornelius > ... oh my. Elric is a witty swords'n'sorcery series, almost a parody > of s&s, but never failing to take its matter seriously in context. And > Jerry Cornelius... well, some days I think Cornelius is Moorcock's > crowning achievement; other days I think it's a vast hoax. Either way, > I wouldn't be without the ten or so books that constitute the greater > Cornelius Chronicles. Amazing stuff. > > To make things more confusing, Elric interacts with characters from > both the "lower" tier and the "upper" tier (appearing now with Corum > and Hawkmoon, and then in the End of Time...), and both of them (as > well as a few characters in the "upper" tier) are aspects of that > damned Eternal Champion. > > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes Thanks. I'll definitely need me some Moorcock :D I also found some Elric comics but I haven't read them yet. ~witz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 11 Aug 2011, 17:48 in reply to Son of Witz > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Son of Witz > wrote: > Thanks. > I'll definitely need me some Moorcock :D > I also found some Elric comics but I haven't read them yet. If they're the ones published in the '80s by Pacific/First Comics, they're very true to the stories. -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 11 Aug 2011, 17:53 in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > On Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Son of Witz > wrote: > > Thanks. > > I'll definitely need me some Moorcock :D > > I also found some Elric comics but I haven't read them yet. > If they're the ones published in the '80s by Pacific/First Comics, > they're very true to the stories. > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes I don't know the date but they have digital coloring, so they're not that old. They're written by Moorcock though. Walter Simonson art. They look promising enough. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 11 Aug 2011, 17:55 in reply to Son of Witz Hunh. Not the ones I'm familiar with. Simonson art, eh... > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Son of Witz > wrote: > On Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Son of Witz > wrote: > > Thanks. > I'll definitely need me some Moorcock :D > I also found some Elric comics but I haven't read them yet. > > If they're the ones published in the '80s by Pacific/First Comics, > they're very true to the stories. > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > > > I don't know the date but they have digital coloring, so they're not that > old. > They're written by Moorcock though. Walter Simonson art. ?They look > promising enough. > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Son of Witz — 11 Aug 2011, 18:00 in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > On Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Hunh. Not the ones I'm familiar with. Simonson art, eh... yeah. I don't love his art, but it's solid enough. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 11 Aug 2011, 18:01 in reply to Son of Witz H'mmm. I've liked his art since his run on "Thor." Granted, he's not in my top ten or anything but his art definitely gets the job done. > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Son of Witz > wrote: > > On Thursday, August 11, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > > Hunh. Not the ones I'm familiar with. Simonson art, eh... > > > yeah. I don't love his art, but it's solid enough. > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Friedman — 12 Aug 2011, 05:10 in reply to Lane Haygood > From: Lane Haygood > To: The Urth Mailing List > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:09 AM > Subject: Re: (urth) NPR Results > > This has shaken my faith in the correctness of democracy. > > I mean, would it be SO terrible to force people into good literature > gulags? Eighteen hours a day, reading away, lulled to silence by the > gentle crack of the overseer's whips? ... The overseers being Seekers of Taste and Penitence? Jerry Friedman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lane Haygood — 12 Aug 2011, 05:28 in reply to Jerry Friedman > The overseers being Seekers of Taste and Penitence? > > Jerry Friedman Papa Gene would't have it any other way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gerry Quinn — 12 Aug 2011, 09:02 in reply to Lane Haygood ----- Original Message ----- From: Lane Haygood > Moorcock was a very subversive counterculture figure in the 60s and 70s > and his books reflect it. Elric was written as the Anti-Conan, a sickly > intellectual who concerns himself too much with ethics and turns to violence > and demonology only as a last resort. The Hamlet of Swords and Sorcery? > I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually. I have maybe a blind spot for Moorcock. The Jerry Cornelius and related stuff turned me off, and much of the rest seemed slight. Probably I should take another look. I actually liked his non-SF effort, _Mother London_. - Gerry Quinn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Antonin Scriabin — 19 Aug 2011, 01:36 in reply to Gerry Quinn That is very fun! I might bump Home Fires up a notch or two on my Wolfe-to-read list. > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 5:02 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: > ** > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Lane Haygood > > Moorcock was a very subversive counterculture figure in the 60s and 70s > > and his books reflect it. Elric was written as the Anti-Conan, a sickly > > intellectual who concerns himself too much with ethics and turns to > > violence > > and demonology only as a last resort. > The Hamlet of Swords and Sorcery? > > I recommend all of the Eternal Champion books, actually. > I have maybe a blind spot for Moorcock. The Jerry Cornelius and related > stuff turned me off, and much of the rest seemed slight. Probably I should > take another look. > > I actually liked his non-SF effort, _Mother London_. > > - Gerry Quinn > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------