{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6054", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6054, "subject": "Video reviews of \"Home Fires\" and \"The Sorcerer's House\"", "messages": 29, "voices": 10, "first": "2011-08-30T15:56:05+00:00", "last": "2012-01-17T01:57:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4E5D0815.70902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-08-30T15:56:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Video reviews of \"Home Fires\" and \"The Sorcerer's House\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://blip.tv/planetman-entertainment/novelties-the-sorcerer-s-house-by-gene-wolfe-5213667\n\nhttp://blip.tv/planetman-entertainment/novelties-home-fires-by-gene-wolfe-5491084" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E8F7022.7020700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-07T21:33:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4E5D0815.70902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(1) What the hell was that about Ellen Woodward, Connell, and Auciello? \nThe leader she shoots is not the hijacker's, because he (I can't find \nhis name) is subdued by Soriano. Was Skip once someone else? (Why did \nChelle think he had a cane at one point?)\n\n(2) Charles is emphatically Chelle's father (unless he is not). At the \nformal dinner, his family reunites. All three have trouble recognizing \none another (except when they don't). Two are known to be not entirely \nwho they think they are. Surely the third is also not entirely who he \nis. It has been suggested Blue is an Os, but surely the Os are not \nsexually/genetically compatible with humans. Was Charles abnormally tall \npreviously? Chelle says he would do anything to get ahead; he was quite \nold. To complete the trio of \"spirit mounts,\" is Mr White Charles in an \nOs body (or some Os-tech amalgam that lets him keep his blue eyes)?\n\n(3) Someone mentioned the loa; someone else also wondered about a mythic \nfamily containing a resurrected mother and a tricksy father. I don't \nknow about that but has anyone checked out the Ogun angle? From the Wiki:\n\n(a) In a ritual the Loa are summoned by the Houngan \n (Priest), Mambo \n (Priestess) or Bokor \n (Sorcerers) to take part in the \nservice, receive offerings, and grant requests. The Loa arrive in the \nperistyle (ritual space) by mounting (possessing) a horse (ritualist) - \nwho is said to be \"ridden.\" ....\n\nCertain Loa display very distinctive behaviour by which they can be \nrecognized, specific phrases, and specific actions. As soon as a Loa is \nrecognized, the symbols appropriate to them will be given to them. For \nexample Erzulie Freda will be \ngiven a mirror and a comb, fine cloth or jewelry (Vanessa?!); Legba will \nbe given his cane, straw hat and pipe (Charles?); Baron Samedi \n will be given his top hat, \nsunglasses (Charles again?) and a cigar.\n\nFurther, as to why Wolfe would suddenly write a voodoo novel:\n\n(b) As a way to keep their European \n masters from interfering, and to \nappease the authorities who prevented them from practising their own \nreligions, the African slaves in \nHaiti syncretised the Loa with \nthe Roman Catholic saints \n- so Vodoun altars will frequently have images of Catholic figures \ndisplayed. For example, Papa Legba \n is alternately St. Peter \n or St. Lazarus \n,^[/disambiguation needed \n/] \nAyizan is Saint Clare \n, and so on. Syncretism \nalso works the other way in Haitian Vodou \n and many Catholic \n saints \n have become Loa in their own right, \nmost notably St. Philomena , \nSt. Michael the Archangel \n, St. Jude \n, and St. John the \nBaptist .\n\nAnd finally:\n\n(c) The Rada Loa are generally \nthe older, more beneficent spirits, and are associated with the gods of \nAfrica. They include Legba , \nLoko , Ayizan \n, Anaisa Pye \n, Dhamballah Wedo \n and Ayida-Weddo \n, Erzulie Freda \n, La Sir ne \n, and Agwe \n. Their traditional colour is white \n (as opposed to the specific colours \nof individual Loa)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E90C694.8000509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-08T21:54:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4E8F7022.7020700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies for all the links the Wiki paste put in there. Here is a \ncleaner version." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/7/2011 5:33 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n(1) What the hell was that about Ellen Woodward, Connell, and \nAuciello? The leader she shoots is not the hijacker's, because he (I \ncan't find his name) is subdued by Soriano. Was Skip once someone \nelse? (Why did Chelle think he had a cane at one point?)\n\n(2) Charles is emphatically Chelle's father (unless he is not). At the \nformal dinner, his family reunites. All three have trouble recognizing \none another (except when they don't). Two are known to be not entirely \nwho they think they are. Surely the third is also not entirely who he \nis. It has been suggested Blue is an Os, but surely the Os are not \nsexually/genetically compatible with humans. Was Charles abnormally \ntall previously? Chelle says he would do anything to get ahead; he was \nquite old. To complete the trio of \"spirit mounts,\" is Mr White \nCharles in an Os body (or some Os-tech amalgam that lets him keep his \nblue eyes)?\n\n(3) Someone mentioned the loa; someone else also wondered about a \nmythic family containing a resurrected mother and a tricksy father. I \ndon't know about that but has anyone checked out the Ogun angle? From \nthe Wiki:\n\n(a) In a ritual the Loa are summoned by the Houngan (Priest), Mambo \n(Priestess) or Bokor (Sorcerers) to take part in the service, receive \nofferings, and grant requests. The Loa arrive in the peristyle (ritual \nspace) by mounting (possessing) a horse (ritualist) - who is said to \nbe \"ridden.\" ....\n\nCertain Loa display very distinctive behaviour by which they can be \nrecognized, specific phrases, and specific actions. As soon as a Loa \nis recognized, the symbols appropriate to them will be given to them. \nFor example Erzulie Freda will be given a mirror and a comb, fine \ncloth or jewelry (Vanessa?!); Legba will be given his cane, straw hat \nand pipe (Charles?); Baron Samedi will be given his top hat, \nsunglasses (Charles again?) and a cigar.\n\nFurther, as to why Wolfe would suddenly write a voodoo novel:\n\n(b) As a way to keep their European masters from interfering, and to \nappease the authorities who prevented them from practising their own \nreligions, the African slaves in Haiti syncretised the Loa with the \nRoman Catholic saints - so Vodoun altars will frequently have images \nof Catholic figures displayed. For example, Papa Legba is alternately \nSt. Peter or St. Lazarus, Ayizan is Saint Clare, and so on. \nSyncretism also works the other way in Haitian Vodou and many \nCatholic saints have become Loa in their own right, most notably St. \nPhilomena, St. Michael the Archangel, St. Jude, and St. John the Baptist.\n\nAnd finally:\n\n(c) The Rada Loa are generally the older, more beneficent spirits, and \nare associated with the gods of Africa. They include Legba, Loko, \nAyizan, Anaisa Pye, Dhamballah Wedo, and Ayida-Weddo, Erzulie Freda, \nLa Sir ne, and Agwe. Their traditional colour is white (as opposed to \nthe specific colours of individual Loa)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94E233.9010202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T00:41:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4E90C694.8000509@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seriously. Has no one read Home Fires?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/8/2011 5:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nApologies for all the links the Wiki paste put in there. Here is a \ncleaner version.\n\nOn 10/7/2011 5:33 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(1) What the hell was that about Ellen Woodward, Connell, and \nAuciello? The leader she shoots is not the hijacker's, because he (I \ncan't find his name) is subdued by Soriano. Was Skip once someone \nelse? (Why did Chelle think he had a cane at one point?)\n\n(2) Charles is emphatically Chelle's father (unless he is not). At \nthe formal dinner, his family reunites. All three have trouble \nrecognizing one another (except when they don't). Two are known to be \nnot entirely who they think they are. Surely the third is also not \nentirely who he is. It has been suggested Blue is an Os, but surely \nthe Os are not sexually/genetically compatible with humans. Was \nCharles abnormally tall previously? Chelle says he would do anything \nto get ahead; he was quite old. To complete the trio of \"spirit \nmounts,\" is Mr White Charles in an Os body (or some Os-tech amalgam \nthat lets him keep his blue eyes)?\n\n(3) Someone mentioned the loa; someone else also wondered about a \nmythic family containing a resurrected mother and a tricksy father. I \ndon't know about that but has anyone checked out the Ogun angle? From \nthe Wiki:\n\n(a) In a ritual the Loa are summoned by the Houngan (Priest), Mambo \n(Priestess) or Bokor (Sorcerers) to take part in the service, \nreceive offerings, and grant requests. The Loa arrive in the \nperistyle (ritual space) by mounting (possessing) a horse (ritualist) \n- who is said to be \"ridden.\" ....\n\nCertain Loa display very distinctive behaviour by which they can be \nrecognized, specific phrases, and specific actions. As soon as a Loa \nis recognized, the symbols appropriate to them will be given to them. \nFor example Erzulie Freda will be given a mirror and a comb, fine \ncloth or jewelry (Vanessa?!); Legba will be given his cane, straw hat \nand pipe (Charles?); Baron Samedi will be given his top hat, \nsunglasses (Charles again?) and a cigar.\n\nFurther, as to why Wolfe would suddenly write a voodoo novel:\n\n(b) As a way to keep their European masters from interfering, and to \nappease the authorities who prevented them from practising their own \nreligions, the African slaves in Haiti syncretised the Loa with the \nRoman Catholic saints - so Vodoun altars will frequently have images \nof Catholic figures displayed. For example, Papa Legba is alternately \nSt. Peter or St. Lazarus, Ayizan is Saint Clare, and so on. \nSyncretism also works the other way in Haitian Vodou and many \nCatholic saints have become Loa in their own right, most notably \nSt. Philomena, St. Michael the Archangel, St. Jude, and St. John the \nBaptist.\n\nAnd finally:\n\n(c) The Rada Loa are generally the older, more beneficent spirits, \nand are associated with the gods of Africa. They include Legba, Loko, \nAyizan, Anaisa Pye, Dhamballah Wedo, and Ayida-Weddo, Erzulie Freda, \nLa Sir ne, and Agwe. Their traditional colour is white (as opposed to \nthe specific colours of individual Loa)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T09:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4E94E233.9010202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha, ha, not yet, David! Wish I could help!\n\nAnybody heard whether Gene's gonna be able to complete The Land Across or\nfollow up An Evil Guest with a novel set at least partly on Woldercan?\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:41 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSeriously. Has no one read Home Fires?\n\nOn 10/8/2011 5:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Apologies for all the links the Wiki paste put in there. Here is a cleaner\nversion.\n\nOn 10/7/2011 5:33 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(1) What the hell was that about Ellen Woodward, Connell, and Auciello?\nThe leader she shoots is not the hijacker's, because he (I can't find his\nname) is subdued by Soriano. Was Skip once someone else? (Why did Chelle\nthink he had a cane at one point?)\n\n(2) Charles is emphatically Chelle's father (unless he is not). At the\nformal dinner, his family reunites. All three have trouble recognizing one\nanother (except when they don't). Two are known to be not entirely who they\nthink they are. Surely the third is also not entirely who he is. It has been\nsuggested Blue is an Os, but surely the Os are not sexually/genetically\ncompatible with humans. Was Charles abnormally tall previously? Chelle says\nhe would do anything to get ahead; he was quite old. To complete the trio of\n\"spirit mounts,\" is Mr White Charles in an Os body (or some Os-tech amalgam\nthat lets him keep his blue eyes)?\n\n(3) Someone mentioned the loa; someone else also wondered about a mythic\nfamily containing a resurrected mother and a tricksy father. I don't know\nabout that but has anyone checked out the Ogun angle? From the Wiki:\n\n(a) In a ritual the Loa are summoned by the Houngan (Priest), Mambo\n(Priestess) or Bokor (Sorcerers) to take part in the service, receive\nofferings, and grant requests. The Loa arrive in the peristyle (ritual\nspace) by mounting (possessing) a horse (ritualist) - who is said to be\n\"ridden.\" ....\n\nCertain Loa display very distinctive behaviour by which they can be\nrecognized, specific phrases, and specific actions. As soon as a Loa is\nrecognized, the symbols appropriate to them will be given to them. For\nexample Erzulie Freda will be given a mirror and a comb, fine cloth or\njewelry (Vanessa?!); Legba will be given his cane, straw hat and pipe\n(Charles?); Baron Samedi will be given his top hat, sunglasses (Charles\nagain?) and a cigar.\n\nFurther, as to why Wolfe would suddenly write a voodoo novel:\n\n(b) As a way to keep their European masters from interfering, and to\nappease the authorities who prevented them from practising their own\nreligions, the African slaves in Haiti syncretised the Loa with the Roman\nCatholic saints - so Vodoun altars will frequently have images of Catholic\nfigures displayed. For example, Papa Legba is alternately St. Peter or St.\nLazarus, Ayizan is Saint Clare, and so on. Syncretism also works the other\nway in Haitian Vodou and many Catholic saints have become Loa in their\nown right, most notably St. Philomena, St. Michael the Archangel, St. Jude,\nand St. John the Baptist.\n\nAnd finally:\n\n(c) The Rada Loa are generally the older, more beneficent spirits, and\nare associated with the gods of Africa. They include Legba, Loko, Ayizan,\nAnaisa Pye, Dhamballah Wedo, and Ayida-Weddo, Erzulie Freda, La Sir ne, and\nAgwe. Their traditional colour is white (as opposed to the specific colours\nof individual Loa)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 111011-2, 10/11/2011\nTested on: 10/11/2011 8:41:23 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<772F965A-CD4C-4181-B81E-60A212980884@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T11:41:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4E94E233.9010202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 12/10/2011, ?s 01:41, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seriously. Has no one read Home Fires?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Errr...\nYou've caught us. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9599E3.3050701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T13:45:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<772F965A-CD4C-4181-B81E-60A212980884@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shame!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/2011 7:41 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 12/10/2011, ?s 01:41, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seriously. Has no one read Home Fires?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Errr...\nYou've caught us." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318431534.83975.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T14:58:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/12/11, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\nHa, ha, not yet, David! ?Wish I could help!\n\n\nAnybody heard whether Gene's gonna be able to complete The Land Across or follow up An Evil Guest with a novel set at least partly on Woldercan?\n\n\n\nHe finished the first draft of The Land Across recently, but he likes to rewrite. Don't know about any future plans after that, but he still writes regularly. \n\nI read all but the very end of Home Fires, because I like to save something new from Wolfe for a rainy or depressing day. When a publication day is set for The Land Across I will finish Home Fires and contribute more to the discussion. \n\nLots of distractions recently health wise, both Rosemary's and possibly his own, though he doesn't say more than stuff like, \"been ill this week\". If I could steal a thousand years from future generations I would certainly transfer them vampirically to Wolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318903379.24497.YahooMailNeo@web84403.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T02:02:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4E94E233.9010202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seriously. Has no one read Home Fires?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My thirst for?Home Fires got quenched in the first chapter while trying to figure out why yellow FAX paper would be so comforting--apparently this is a 'finding' in color psychology, which presumably foreshadows the overlays of color-named characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was Skip once someone else?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems like everyone in Home Fires is/was someone else so why not Skip? Question is, who? His initials--S.W.G.--don't help me generate many alternatives, although some sort of \"Greene\" seems likely. But Skip/overlay might explain why Skip wonders if Chelle will recognize him on her return--despite the Obvious Explanation that Skip will appear different in Chelle's eyes because he has aged. Skip/overlay also fits with Skip's too-easy transformation into agile hero aboard the cruise ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?At the formal dinner, his family reunites. All three have trouble recognizing one another (except when they don't). Two are known to be not entirely who they think they are. Surely the third is also not entirely who he is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do wonder how any of the Blue family can recognize each other to any degree because they're all replacements/overlays. Still, somehow Chelle recognized her replacement mother at the airport while failing to recognize Skip. Clearly an important clue." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9CE496.6020009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-18T02:29:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1318903379.24497.YahooMailNeo@web84403.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Finally!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 10:02 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seriously. Has no one read Home Fires?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My thirst for /Home Fires/ got quenched in the first chapter while \ntrying to figure out why yellow FAX paper would be so \ncomforting--apparently this is a 'finding' in color psychology, which \npresumably foreshadows the overlays of color-named characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forget who was supposed to find it comforting....need to check. Yes, \nthere must be other colors than Blue and White; there must be a Yellow \nat least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was Skip once someone else?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seems like everyone in Home Fires is/was someone else so why not Skip? \nQuestion is, who? His initials--S.W.G.--don't help me generate many \nalternatives, although some sort of \"Greene\" seems likely. But \nSkip/overlay might explain why Skip wonders if Chelle will recognize \nhim on her return--despite the Obvious Explanation that Skip will \nappear different in Chelle's eyes because he has aged. Skip/overlay \nalso fits with Skip's too-easy transformation into agile hero aboard \nthe cruise ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. He doubts it himself. And it's almost as though he is truly a \nwuss who has no idea he was ridden and did not perform those deeds, but \nsince he thinks he did, he becomes brave. Wouldn't be the first time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At the formal dinner, his family reunites. All three have trouble \nrecognizing one another (except when they don't). Two are known to be \nnot entirely who they think they are. Surely the third is also not \nentirely who he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do wonder how any of the Blue family can recognize each other to any \ndegree because they're all replacements/overlays. Still, somehow \nChelle recognized her replacement mother at the airport while failing \nto recognize Skip. Clearly an important clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. As a person apparently in her own body, she ignored her mom's \nmount's body and saw only her rider, but she didn't see Skip. I don't \nknow whether to take that as a sign of how well the technology works or \nsomething else. Skip was not simply riding a new body, or else there is \nno reason for Chelle to miss (skip?) him. The other alternative is that \nsomeone was riding him. But he's a lawyer, not a suicide---he wasn't \nwiped, he's ridden by a god if anything.\n\nDoes \"skip\" refer to the practice of effectively time traveling by \nshipping outsystem? Is Skip's cover story for Chelle's mom of doing \n\"secret work for the government\" (presumably complete with ninja moves) \nderived from his own immediate past?\n\nThe voodoo angle doesn't help much---all the big shots are white. But \nthere are other color associations that may help. hmm...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9D8E44.7030108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-18T14:33:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1318903379.24497.YahooMailNeo@web84403.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "more..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 10:02 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seriously. Has no one read Home Fires?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My thirst for /Home Fires/ got quenched in the first chapter while \ntrying to figure out why yellow FAX paper would be so \ncomforting--apparently this is a 'finding' in color psychology, which \npresumably foreshadows the overlays of color-named characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was Skip once someone else?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seems like everyone in Home Fires is/was someone else so why not Skip? \nQuestion is, who? His initials--S.W.G.--don't help me generate many \nalternatives, although some sort of \"Greene\" seems likely. But \nSkip/overlay might explain why Skip wonders if Chelle will recognize \nhim on her return--despite the Obvious Explanation that Skip will \nappear different in Chelle's eyes because he has aged. Skip/overlay \nalso fits with Skip's too-easy transformation into agile hero aboard \nthe cruise ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At the formal dinner, his family reunites. All three have trouble \nrecognizing one another (except when they don't). Two are known to be \nnot entirely who they think they are. Surely the third is also not \nentirely who he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do wonder how any of the Blue family can recognize each other to any \ndegree because they're all replacements/overlays. Still, somehow \nChelle recognized her replacement mother at the airport while failing \nto recognize Skip. Clearly an important clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some notes about the beginning. First, it seems to begin with a dream, \nbut the dream (Skip's memory of contracting with Chelle, looking in a \nmirror, recoiling) is followed by a reality that appears to be identical \n(he worries about Chelle, he looks in the mirror, recoils).\n\nSecond, Skip gets his own \"yellow copy.\" He wonders if it's \nwork-related, then tells himself he knows what it is, then tells himself \nit's something else. It turns out to be a message concerning Chelle. \nPretty much all the narration here is immediately negated or \ncontradicted. What was the other thing it could have been?\n\nOdds/ends:\n\n(1) Skip's hands are described as \"wrinkled and old\" in his dream. Is \nthis merely his exaggerated worry that Chelle will find him too old? \nHe's only in his late forties.\n\n(2) the sentence \"Five hundred.\" (This after something \"seizes\" Skip at \nthe mirror and before he \"shudders.\") Years? Hours? Surely not noras." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319054343.23997.YahooMailNeo@web84414.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T19:59:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4E9D8E44.7030108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nAt the formal dinner, his family reunites. All three have trouble recognizing one another (except when they don't). Two are known to be not entirely who they think they are. Surely the third is also not entirely who he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?> I do wonder how" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " any of the Blue family can recognize each other to any degree because they're all replacements/overlays. Still, somehow Chelle recognized her replacement mother at the airport while failing to recognize Skip. Clearly an important clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?Some notes about the beginning. First, it seems to begin with a dream, but the dream (Skip's memory of contracting with Chelle, looking in a mirror, recoiling) is followed by a reality that appears to be identical (he worries about Chelle, he looks in the mirror, recoils).\n?Second, Skip gets his own \"yellow copy.\" He wonders if it's work-related, then tells himself he knows what it is, then tells himself it's something else. It turns out to be a message concerning Chelle. Pretty" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " much all the narration here is immediately negated\n or contradicted. What was the other thing it could have been?\n\nI agree about the dream-like start--a re-read of Chapter One feels like Skip is recovering from a recent mind-plant. Note also the details toward chapter's end, from the window conversion paragraph thru the tea garden paragraph--the open window and budding roses suggest an expansion of consciousness.\n\nWolfe doesn't openly discuss the effects of superposing one mind onto another without first performing a wipe, but that seems to be what we're both considering. I think Skip has an overlay of some sort, possibly an agent's persona designated to watch over Chelle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?Odds/ends:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?(1) Skip's hands are described as \"wrinkled and old\" in his dream. Is this merely his exaggerated worry that Chelle will find him too old? He's only in his late forties.\n?(2) the sentence \"Five hundred.\" (This after something \"seizes\" Skip at the mirror and before he \"shudders.\") Years? Hours? Surely not noras." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's a thought...a year may not be a solar year.\n\nWhat if a year is actually ten hundred-days? Is there anything in Home Fires that might contradict this metrification? ?Twenty-two years of hundred-time equals about sixty of ours, which would help explain Chelle's failure to id Skip right off the ship, as well as Skip's early self-perception as \"wrinkled and old.\" Also, it helps explain the confusion of Martha Ott, the disoriented elderly woman at the end of the book who sips tea with Chelle at Carrera's Cafe. On the down side, it's not a world-building premise I'd expect an author to obscure." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T20:11:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1319054343.23997.YahooMailNeo@web84414.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nWhat if a year is actually ten hundred-days? Is there anything in Home Fires\nthat might contradict this metrification?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, but I believe that if they were going to call a thousand days a\n\"year,\" they would've called a hundred days a \"month;\" contrariwise,\nif they were going to call a hundred days a \"hundred-day,\" they would\nhave come up with an appropriate name for a thousand-day. I could, of\ncourse, be wrong, but I don't think Wolfe would throw in such an\ninconsistency without at least a hint." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9F3E33.8090901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T21:16:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1319054343.23997.YahooMailNeo@web84414.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 3:59 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "At the formal dinner, his family reunites. All three have \ntrouble recognizing one another (except when they don't). Two are \nknown to be not entirely who they think they are. Surely the third is \nalso not entirely who he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I do wonder how any of the Blue family can recognize each other to \nany degree because they're all replacements/overlays. Still, somehow \nChelle recognized her replacement mother at the airport while failing \nto recognize Skip. Clearly an important clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some notes about the beginning. First, it seems to begin with a \ndream, but the dream (Skip's memory of contracting with Chelle, \nlooking in a mirror, recoiling) is followed by a reality that appears \nto be identical (he worries about Chelle, he looks in the mirror, \nrecoils).\nSecond, Skip gets his own \"yellow copy.\" He wonders if it's \nwork-related, then tells himself he knows what it is, then tells \nhimself it's something else. It turns out to be a message concerning \nChelle. Pretty much all the narration here is immediately negated or \ncontradicted. What was the other thing it could have been?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree about the dream-like start--a re-read of Chapter One feels \nlike Skip is recovering from a recent mind-plant. Note also the \ndetails toward chapter's end, from the window conversion paragraph \nthru the tea garden paragraph--the open window and budding roses \nsuggest an expansion of consciousness.\n\nWolfe doesn't openly discuss the effects of superposing one mind onto \nanother without first performing a wipe, but that seems to be what \nwe're both considering. I think Skip has an overlay of some sort, \npossibly an agent's persona designated to watch over Chelle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. And that would explain a few things: (1) if the agent rider (or \nobserver?) is very young, that would explain both Skip's quick reactions \nand his horror at Skip's age. Mist may be a clue. (2) That lets Mr White \nbe the same kind of composite persona. Hard to say who is riding whom. \n(3) Skip's ready production of an alibi for Chelle's mom (I still find \nit suspicious). (4) Possibly, just possibly, the memory of rallying the \nnearly-unarmed Ellen Woodward and others when the agent rode someone \nelse. Is the agent a kind of mental Sky Marshal? Odd that this \"agent\" \nseems experienced at hijacking-type situations; when Skip emerges from \nthe mists, he hasn't even thought of his cruise idea yet. Maybe \nhijackings have become common, but then why no Marines on the ship?\n\nAnd Chelle appears not to be valuable anyway, at least not in the way \nsome characters seem to think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Odds/ends:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(1) Skip's hands are described as \"wrinkled and old\" in his dream. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this merely his exaggerated worry that Chelle will find him too \nold? He's only in his late forties." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(2) the sentence \"Five hundred.\" (This after something \"seizes\" Skip \nat the mirror and before he \"shudders.\") Years? Hours? Surely not noras." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's a thought...a year may not be a solar year.\n\nWhat if a year is actually ten hundred-days? Is there anything in Home \nFires that might contradict this metrification? Twenty-two years of \nhundred-time equals about sixty of ours, which would help explain \nChelle's failure to id Skip right off the ship, as well as Skip's \nearly self-perception as \"wrinkled and old.\" Also, it helps explain \nthe confusion of Martha Ott, the disoriented elderly woman at the end \nof the book who sips tea with Chelle at Carrera's Cafe. On the down \nside, it's not a world-building premise I'd expect an author to obscure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was some discussion of time a few months ago (see \"Home Fires and \ncalendar reform\"). The year seems to be 400 days, with 100-day quarters \nand (I guess) 33-day months. So 500 days would be more than a year. I \njust returned the book to the library---how long is Chelle supposed to \nbe on leave? Anyway, the agent's assignment to Skip could be that long.\n\nNow, if you allow massive rounding (odd in a metric time system, but \nmaybe common among people who haven't adapted to it yet), \"200 days, \nabout half a year\" could mean almost 250 days, so a year might be 500 \ndays. BTW, I think you're off by a decimal: 22 x 100 = 2200; 2200/365 = \n6 of our years or 5.5 400-day years. Or did I misunderstand you?\n\nAnother approach: if tours of duty are similar to our own, i.e., 6 \nmonths to 2 to 4 years, maybe that's a place to start. Given \ninterstellar distances, 2 years may be the minimum time Chelle was away. \nWould 1000 days be a typical tour, or 500 + star travel? How many years \nwould pass on Earth?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319383525.88416.YahooMailNeo@web84414.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T15:25:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, October 19, 2011 3:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What if a year is actually ten hundred-days? Is there anything in Home Fires\nthat might contradict this metrification?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, but I believe that if they were going to call a thousand days a\n\"year,\" they would've called a hundred days a \"month;\" contrariwise,\nif they were going to call a hundred days a \"hundred-day,\" they would\nhave come up with an appropriate name for a thousand-day. I could, of\ncourse, be wrong, but I don't think Wolfe would throw in such an\ninconsistency without at least a hint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, an author should give a hint of any change in the definition of a year. The question is whether \"hundred-day\" is a hint.\nAs Dan'l points out, we only have a \"hundred-day\" in Home Fires. Where are \"ten-day\" and \"thousand-day\"? There's no mention of month but we do find other non-metric time terms like hour, week, and year. However, trying to stretch a week to ten days won't work because Wolfe eliminates the possibility. In Reflection 17 Looking Over a Rail, Skip calculates the wages of the crew: <> ?Ten noras a day, confirming seven days in a week, and an ugly 14.3 weeks per hundred day.\nA search for year = thousand-day (or any other value that appeals) also comes up empty. There's no indication that the number of days in a year has changed. Even time-of-day seems unchanged after a careful re-reading. We fail in any search for a philometric calendar with units of 1, 10, 100, 1000. So why does Wolfe refer so frequently to a \"hundred-day\"?\n\nEither I'm missing something as a reader, or \"hundred-day\" is mere window dressing--a sort of fictional condiment like all the food scenes in An Evil Guest." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319387886.45343.YahooMailNeo@web84416.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T16:38:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4E9F3E33.8090901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:16 PM, David Stockhoff wrote in reply to me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hoy: What if a year is actually ten hundred-days? Is there anything in Home Fires that might contradict this metrification? ?Twenty-two years of hundred-time equals about sixty of ours ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stockoff: There was some discussion of time a few months ago (see \"Home Fires and calendar reform\"). The year seems to be 400 days, with 100-day quarters and (I guess) 33-day months. So 500 days would be more than a year. I just returned the book to the library---how long is Chelle supposed to be on leave? Anyway, the agent's assignment to Skip could be that long." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stockoff: Now, if you allow massive rounding (odd in a metric time system, but maybe common among people who haven't adapted to it yet), \"200 days, about half a year\" could mean almost 250 days, so a year might be 500 days. BTW, I think you're off by a decimal: 22 x 100 = 2200; 2200/365 = 6 of our years or 5.5 400-day years. Or did I misunderstand you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was calculating that 22 \"thousand-day years\" is about 60 \"three-hundred-sixty-five-day years.\" ? ? 22 * 1000 = 60 * 366.666... ?But my guess is refuted by a detail I hadn't noticed & to which you refer: Ch 11 Right and Left, Rick Johnson tells Skip about a temporary job he once held for \"two hundred days or so, about half a year.\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stockoff: Another approach: if tours of duty are similar to our own, i.e., 6 months to 2 to 4 years, maybe that's a place to start. Given interstellar distances, 2 years may be the minimum time Chelle was away. Would 1000 days be a typical tour, or 500 + star travel? How many years would pass on Earth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nailing down the length of a year has significance if you want to know where Chelle fought the Os.\n\nIn Ch 2 When Janie Comes Marching Home, Chelle asks, \"How long was I gone?\" \"Twenty-two years, one hundred and six days,\" Skip replies, \"I was...\" then trails off into silence. \"Speechless, Counselor?\" Skip offers up a few words to explain how he felt, including a phrase from Edward Coke,\"Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.\" Truth is only afraid of concealment. — Curiously, we find a similar quote in An Evil Guest from Coke's legal rival Francis Bacon, the bit in the first chapter where the President scoffs,\"What's truth, ?said jestin' Pilate.\"] This particular legal phrase doesn't really fit Skip's situation. To me, it feels more like \"X\" marks the spot.\n\n\nThe time passed provides an estimate of the distance traveled. There are only three stars within 11 light years of Earth. Assuming near-perfect lightspeed travel, Chelle possibly traveled to Epsilon Eridani, 10.5 light years distant.\n\nDoesn't leave Chelle much duty time at her destination--about 1 year 106 days--, but this is consistent with the story. She returned early due to injury." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA4749D.4020308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-23T20:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1319387886.45343.YahooMailNeo@web84416.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/23/2011 12:38 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nStockoff: Another approach: if tours of duty are similar to our own, \ni.e., 6 months to 2 to 4 years, maybe that's a place to start. Given \ninterstellar distances, 2 years may be the minimum time Chelle was \naway. Would 1000 days be a typical tour, or 500 + star travel? How \nmany years would pass on Earth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nailing down the length of a year has significance if you want to know \nwhere Chelle fought the Os.\n\nIn Ch 2 When Janie Comes Marching Home, Chelle asks, \"How long was I \ngone?\" \"Twenty-two years, one hundred and six days,\" Skip replies, \"I \nwas...\" then trails off into silence. \"Speechless, Counselor?\" Skip \noffers up a few words to explain how he felt, including a phrase from \nEdward Coke,\"Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.\" Truth is only \nafraid of concealment. Curiously, we find a similar quote in /An \nEvil Guest/ from Coke's legal rival Francis Bacon, the bit in the \nfirst chapter where the President scoffs,\"What's truth, said jestin' \nPilate.\"] This particular legal phrase doesn't really fit Skip's \nsituation. To me, it feels more like \"X\" marks the spot.\n\nThe time passed provides an estimate of the distance traveled. There \nare only three stars within 11 light years of Earth. Assuming \nnear-perfect lightspeed travel, Chelle possibly traveled to Epsilon \nEridani, 10.5 light years distant.\n\nDoesn't leave Chelle much duty time at her destination--about 1 year \n106 days--, but this is consistent with the story. She returned early \ndue to injury." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well done. Of course \"1 year and 106 days\" is 471 days, or nearly 500. \nConsistent with a tour of 1-2 years." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA573AA.7080703@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T14:18:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1319387886.45343.YahooMailNeo@web84416.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I note from Lexicon Urthus that \"Os\" is a town along Gyoll. It means \nmouth, opening, source.\n\nThe loa Legbo, who seems to ride Chelle's father as an Os, is a \nspeaker/mouthpiece/gatekeeper." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319496333.33286.YahooMailNeo@web84413.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T22:45:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4EA573AA.7080703@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 24, 2011, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI note from Lexicon Urthus that \"Os\" is a town along Gyoll. It means mouth, opening, source.\nThe loa Legbo, who seems to ride Chelle's father as an Os, is a speaker/mouthpiece/gatekeeper." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Os = \"mouth\" is one of the possible meanings that can make you scratch your head. ?Another possibility is Os = \"Yourselves / Each Other.\"?The anthem. \"El Continente de los H?roes,\" was played at the Canam spaceport on Chelle's return, suggesting the possibility of a spanish-language influence when NORA (presumably) chose a name for the Earth's extra-solar adversaries. ?Of course it could have a color basis, too, as Os = \"bone-(white).\"\n\nNone of these possibilities gains much traction because we have almost no information about the nature of the Os. The most revealing info comes from a discussion of spying in Ch 2, \"I can't imagine how a human being could spy on the Os.\" \"Electronically.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T23:22:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1319496333.33286.YahooMailNeo@web84413.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\n\nNone of these possibilities gains much traction because we have almost no\ninformation about the nature of the Os. The most revealing info comes from a\ndiscussion of spying in Ch 2, \"I can't imagine how a human being could spy\non the Os.\" \"Electronically.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can see three ways of reading that:\n\na) Spying has to be electronic because the Os are non-organic or robotic (Os\nas OS as operating system?)\nb) The Os don't at all resemble humans and therefore no human spy could\ninfiltrate an Os organization, so electronic reconnaissance is the only\noption.\nc) The Os communicate non-verbally; perhaps there are telepathic\ncommunications that might be electronically intercepted?\n\na) would seem to presuppose another race behind the Os. None of these three\noptions rule out the other two from also being true.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5FD99.8010403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T00:06:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1319496333.33286.YahooMailNeo@web84413.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 6:45 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nOn Oct 24, 2011, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I note from Lexicon Urthus that \"Os\" is a town along Gyoll. It means \nmouth, opening, source.\nThe loa Legbo, who seems to ride Chelle's father as an Os, is a \nspeaker/mouthpiece/gatekeeper." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, Os = \"mouth\" is one of the possible meanings that can make you \nscratch your head. Another possibility is Os = \"Yourselves / Each Other.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoa. nice!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The anthem. \"El Continente de los H?roes,\" was played at the Canam \nspaceport on Chelle's return, suggesting the possibility of a \nspanish-language influence when NORA (presumably) chose a name for the \nEarth's extra-solar adversaries. Of course it could have a color \nbasis, too, as Os = \"bone-(white).\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, since the future world is in part a fulfillment of paranoid \nfantasies ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "None of these possibilities gains much traction because we have almost \nno information about the nature of the Os. The most revealing info \ncomes from a discussion of spying in Ch 2, \"I can't imagine how a \nhuman being could spy on the Os.\" \"Electronically.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, there's not much to go on. But I do think the color associations \nare key. As I noted way back, a certain group of loa, including Legba, \nare white rather than other colors. Perhaps the Os have an empire of \nsentient-riders, i.e., they all ride other beings." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6032A.5080702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T00:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 7:22 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nOn Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Stephen Hoy > wrote:\n\n\n None of these possibilities gains much traction because we have\n almost no information about the nature of the Os. The most\n revealing info comes from a discussion of spying in Ch 2, \"I can't\n imagine how a human being could spy on the Os.\" \"Electronically.\"\n\n\nI can see three ways of reading that:\n\na) Spying has to be electronic because the Os are non-organic or \nrobotic (Os as OS as operating system?)\nb) The Os don't at all resemble humans and therefore no human spy \ncould infiltrate an Os organization, so electronic reconnaissance is \nthe only option.\nc) The Os communicate non-verbally; perhaps there are telepathic \ncommunications that might be electronically intercepted?\n\na) would seem to presuppose another race behind the Os. None of these \nthree options rule out the other two from also being true.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Conversely, the Os spy on humans. Either they are traitors or they \nsimply allow themselves to be ridden, or both. I'm guessing they can't \njust take over.\n\nThanks to the pun you point out in in \"a\" and Wolfe's history of \nimagining telepathic robot civilizations, I'd go for all three. \nPresumably telepathy and wireless communications are not far apart." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andreas Muegge", "address": "dread.dragon at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T13:50:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4E9D8E44.7030108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost missed this discussion...\n\n2011/10/18 David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Was Skip once someone else?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seems like everyone in Home Fires is/was someone else so why not Skip?\nQuestion is, who? His initials--S.W.G.--don't help me generate many\nalternatives, although some sort of \"Greene\" seems likely. But Skip/overlay\nmight explain why Skip wonders if Chelle will recognize him on her\nreturn--despite the Obvious Explanation that Skip will appear different in\nChelle's eyes because he has aged. Skip/overlay also fits with Skip's\ntoo-easy transformation into agile hero aboard the cruise ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At the formal dinner, his family reunites. All three have trouble\nrecognizing one another (except when they don't). Two are known to be not\nentirely who they think they are. Surely the third is also not entirely who\nhe is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do wonder how any of the Blue family can recognize each other to any\ndegree because they're all replacements/overlays. Still, somehow Chelle\nrecognized her replacement mother at the airport while failing to recognize\nSkip. Clearly an important clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This puts the whole book into a new light. Does anyone have an idea how\nit's possible that the \"overlays\" recognize each other in the new bodies?\n\nCiao,\n Andreas" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED8DBCD.8060303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T14:08:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/2011 8:50 AM, Andreas Muegge wrote:\nAlmost missed this discussion...\n\n2011/10/18 David Stockhoff >\n\n\n > Was Skip once someone else?\n\n Seems like everyone in Home Fires is/was someone else so why\n not Skip? Question is, who? His initials--S.W.G.--don't help\n me generate many alternatives, although some sort of \"Greene\"\n seems likely. But Skip/overlay might explain why Skip wonders\n if Chelle will recognize him on her return--despite the\n Obvious Explanation that Skip will appear different in\n Chelle's eyes because he has aged. Skip/overlay also fits with\n Skip's too-easy transformation into agile hero aboard the\n cruise ship.\n\n > At the formal dinner, his family reunites. All three have\n trouble recognizing one another (except when they don't). Two\n are known to be not entirely who they think they are. Surely\n the third is also not entirely who he is.\n\n I do wonder how any of the Blue family can recognize each\n other to any degree because they're all replacements/overlays.\n Still, somehow Chelle recognized her replacement mother at the\n airport while failing to recognize Skip. Clearly an important\n clue.\n\nThis puts the whole book into a new light. Does anyone have an idea \nhow it's possible that the \"overlays\" recognize each other in the new \nbodies?\n\nCiao,\n Andreas" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a few thoughts on that but no answers:\n\n(1) All three are different types of overlays or riders: an alien, a \nhuman-tech scanned download, and whatever kind of mysterious accident \nChelle is. Because of the interest the factions seem to have in her, she \nfeels like some kind of sport, maybe a combination of human \nreconstructive tech and something alien. Dunno.\n\n(2) But all are riders on human mounts, and to the extent that they know \nwhat they are, may be able to spot doubled personality in others. Fuzzy, \nI know.\n\n(3) Skip, also a suspected rider, does not *appear* to pick up on this \nstuff quickly or at least overtly, but it's hard to tell what he sees, \nisn't it? If there's a rule based on common mechanisms, he should follow \nit too." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1322848488.78453.YahooMailNeo@web84401.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-12-02T17:54:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4ED8DBCD.8060303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Glad to see this topic arise from the dead. I finished a third re-read of HF and want to share an idea.\n\nThroughout Home Fires, we find out very little about the Os. What we know for certain is that a multinational alliance engaged the Os on the planet Johanna (Gehenna). The most recent information available--10 or so years ago when Chelle departed Johanna--indicates the Os are losing on the ground. Skip entertains a few thoughts about whether the Os would destroy a habitable planet rather than lose it to us, but dismisses this idea. He believes the Os would prefer to negotiate.\n\nWho on earth is better suited to negotiate on behalf of the Os than Skip Webster Grison, lifelong defender of celebrities, cyborgs, and the unjustly accused, leading partner of the celebrated defense firm of Burton, Grison, and Ibarra. How convenient for the Os that, as Home Fires ends, Skip heads to Johanna as a military lawyer, in perfect position to represent the Os if negotiations begin. \"Even a murderer deserves to have someone to speak for him, someone who will explain to the jury why he did what he did and show him where his best interests lie.\"\n\nThe overt story of Home Fires is the classic tale of what a man will do for the love of a woman. But what if the covert story began with a missing fact: Skip was never contracted with Chelle? What if... his memories of Chelle have been implanted just before he awakes on Yellow Paper Day?\n\nEveryone who speaks directly of Skip's relationship with Chelle & family has (arguable) ties to the Os: double agent Charles Blue/White, Vanessa Henessey/Virginia Healey, Susan Clerkin/(whose real last name is unknown), and possibly Chelle herself. If we believe Charles White, Susan's rebound lover Rick Johnson isn't a suicide cultist, but a cyborg agent for the Os, suggesting Vanessa's body-donor Edith Eckhart may have been an Os agent as well. I suspect the not-quite-cyborg pickpocket Achille may have a little Os to his backstory, too.\n\nNefarious backstory: Skip is being manipulated to go to Johanna to represent the Os." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ED92547.5040703@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-12-02T19:21:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1322848488.78453.YahooMailNeo@web84401.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's why Blue is on Earth riding White.\n\nThis explains the weird \"no this, no that\" going on in Skip's thoughts \nin the opening scene; the thoughts he insists on are the fake ones. \nWould this imply Skip is not actually being ridden? More subtracted from \nthan added on to? or both? More like an injected \"agent\" package than a \ncomplete overlay, but enough to make him unrecognizable, i.e., look like \nsomeone else, to Chelle?\n\nMight Chelle have returned bearing some kind of white flag from the Os? \nThe guy she shot was spying for them, which must mean he let them ride \nhim voluntarily. Did some parallel, involuntary mechanism operate when \nshe had her accident and was reconstructed?\n\nDoes the ship hijacking have meaning beyond its plot function?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/2/2011 12:54 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nGlad to see this topic arise from the dead. I finished a third re-read \nof HF and want to share an idea.\n\nThroughout Home Fires, we find out very little about the Os. What we \nknow for certain is that a multinational alliance engaged the Os on \nthe planet Johanna (Gehenna). The most recent information \navailable--10 or so years ago when Chelle departed Johanna--indicates \nthe Os are losing on the ground. Skip entertains a few thoughts about \nwhether the Os would destroy a habitable planet rather than lose it to \nus, but dismisses this idea. He believes the Os would prefer to negotiate.\n\nWho on earth is better suited to negotiate on behalf of the Os than \nSkip Webster Grison, lifelong defender of celebrities, cyborgs, and \nthe unjustly accused, leading partner of the celebrated defense firm \nof Burton, Grison, and Ibarra. How convenient for the Os that, as Home \nFires ends, Skip heads to Johanna as a military lawyer, in perfect \nposition to represent the Os if negotiations begin. \"Even a murderer \ndeserves to have someone to speak for him, someone who will explain to \nthe jury why he did what he did and show him where his best interests \nlie.\"\n\nThe overt story of Home Fires is the classic tale of what a man will \ndo for the love of a woman. But what if the covert story began with a \nmissing fact: Skip was never contracted with Chelle? What if... his \nmemories of Chelle have been implanted just before he awakes on Yellow \nPaper Day?\n\nEveryone who speaks directly of Skip's relationship with Chelle & \nfamily has (arguable) ties to the Os: double agent Charles Blue/White, \nVanessa Henessey/Virginia Healey, Susan Clerkin/(whose real last name \nis unknown), and possibly Chelle herself. If we believe Charles White, \nSusan's rebound lover Rick Johnson isn't a suicide cultist, but a \ncyborg agent for the Os, suggesting Vanessa's body-donor Edith Eckhart \nmay have been an Os agent as well. I suspect the not-quite-cyborg \npickpocket Achille may have a little Os to his backstory, too.\n\nNefarious backstory: Skip is being manipulated to go to Johanna to \nrepresent the Os.\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Friday, December 2, 2011 8:08 AM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Home Fires questions\n\nOn 12/2/2011 8:50 AM, Andreas Muegge wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Almost missed this discussion...\n\n2011/10/18 David Stockhoff >>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Was Skip once someone else?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Seems like everyone in Home Fires is/was someone else so why\n not Skip? Question is, who? His initials--S.W.G.--don't help\n me generate many alternatives, although some sort of \"Greene\"\n seems likely. But Skip/overlay might explain why Skip wonders\n if Chelle will recognize him on her return--despite the\n Obvious Explanation that Skip will appear different in\n Chelle's eyes because he has aged. Skip/overlay also fits with\n Skip's too-easy transformation into agile hero aboard the\n cruise ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At the formal dinner, his family reunites. All three have\n trouble recognizing one another (except when they don't). Two\n are known to be not entirely who they think they are. Surely\n the third is also not entirely who he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I do wonder how any of the Blue family can recognize each\n other to any degree because they're all replacements/overlays.\n Still, somehow Chelle recognized her replacement mother at the\n airport while failing to recognize Skip. Clearly an important\n clue.\n\nThis puts the whole book into a new light. Does anyone have an idea \nhow it's possible that the \"overlays\" recognize each other in the new \nbodies?\n\nCiao,\n Andreas" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a few thoughts on that but no answers:\n\n(1) All three are different types of overlays or riders: an alien, a \nhuman-tech scanned download, and whatever kind of mysterious accident \nChelle is. Because of the interest the factions seem to have in her, \nshe feels like some kind of sport, maybe a combination of human \nreconstructive tech and something alien. Dunno.\n\n(2) But all are riders on human mounts, and to the extent that they \nknow what they are, may be able to spot doubled personality in others. \nFuzzy, I know.\n\n(3) Skip, also a suspected rider, does not *appear* to pick up on this \nstuff quickly or at least overtly, but it's hard to tell what he sees, \nisn't it? If there's a rule based on common mechanisms, he should \nfollow it too.\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1326740572.88526.YahooMailNeo@web84407.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stephen Hoy", "address": "stephenhoy at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2012-01-16T19:02:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1319387886.45343.YahooMailNeo@web84416.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff added a few comments recently about the use of \"hundred day\" in Home Fires, exploring the possibility that the calendar is altered in some way that may illuminate the background of the story. Like the dialects of certain characters, the?colloquial?use of \"hundred day\"?adds a distinct flavor to the story, but?I haven't found any indication the calendar has been changed. Home Fires seems to have a 24 hr clock, a 7 day week, and 365+ day year. Still, I keep wondering whether we can eke out another layer of meaning.\n\nI've been searching for some secondary association of \"hundred day\" that connects to mind-control or memory enhancement or some well-worn epigram of Simonides (as in the dedication to AEG) or some mnemonic device. This line of attack seemed reasonable because the first \"Reflection\" chapter opens with a discussion of memories, where Skip offers the idea that each morning we rebuild our identity with scraps of memories pieced together from \"somewhere\" upon waking. Unfortunately, the memory approach leads nowhere.\n\nJust to see what would happen, I tried translating \"hundred day\" into standard metric form = \"hectoDies.\" Maybe this refers to a person named Hector who dies or someone whose alias is Hector Diaz. If there is such a person, Hector and Achille would have it in for each other. ?\n\n\nPossibly interesting, but pretty flimsy unless there are other traces of the Iliad hidden away somewhere." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F14A31D.2020801@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2012-01-16T22:22:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<1326740572.88526.YahooMailNeo@web84407.mail.ac2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2012 1:02 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff added a few comments recently about the use of \"hundred\nday\" in Home Fires, exploring the possibility that the calendar is\naltered in some way that may illuminate the background of the story.\nLike the dialects of certain characters, the colloquial use of \"hundred\nday\"adds a distinct flavor to the story, but I haven't found any\nindication the calendar has been changed. Home Fires seems to have a 24\nhr clock, a 7 day week, and 365+ day year. Still, I keep wondering\nwhether we can eke out another layer of meaning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The US media often makes a special issue of covering a new president's \nfirst 100 days in office. Maybe there's a media convergence on this \nperiod that catches on, the way the arbitrary red state / blue state \ndesignation did. This could suggest that the media-driven political \nfixation of US society is much, much stronger, or at least much more \nadvanced." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4F14D58F.7060001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2012-01-17T01:57:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Home Fires questions", "in_reply_to": "<4F14A31D.2020801@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/16/2012 5:22 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 1/16/2012 1:02 PM, Stephen Hoy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff added a few comments recently about the use of \"hundred\nday\" in Home Fires, exploring the possibility that the calendar is\naltered in some way that may illuminate the background of the story.\nLike the dialects of certain characters, the colloquial use of \"hundred\nday\"adds a distinct flavor to the story, but I haven't found any\nindication the calendar has been changed. Home Fires seems to have a 24\nhr clock, a 7 day week, and 365+ day year. Still, I keep wondering\nwhether we can eke out another layer of meaning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The US media often makes a special issue of covering a new president's \nfirst 100 days in office. Maybe there's a media convergence on this \nperiod that catches on, the way the arbitrary red state / blue state \ndesignation did. This could suggest that the media-driven political \nfixation of US society is much, much stronger, or at least much more \nadvanced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't catch any sense of that; rather, if anything, that politics as \nwe know it had entirely died. The \"system\" seems to rule in Home Fires, \nwhatever system that might be. Of course, in such a world, media \nidiocies like that 100-day period (arising from FDR's busy presidency) \nmight well supplant rational discourse. But it's hard to imagine that \nhabit coming to order people's lives, unless dictators routinely ruled \nfor 100 days before they were shot by their guards and replaced. It \nwould fit in some ways, but seems a stretch in others.\n\nRereading that post about the \"rational\" calendar, I think I didn't make \na couple of things clear enough: (1) that the calendar we use today is \nalmost identical to it (2) that the 91-day block of days in a quarter is \nvirtually impossible to internalize the way humans normally process \nthings. It would demand---no, scream for---a rounding out to any round \nnumber the human brain can latch on to. \"100\" is the only such number in \nsight in that scenario." } ] } ] }