{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6055", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6055, "subject": "The Book of the Long Sun Question", "messages": 17, "voices": 10, "first": "2011-09-19T14:52:49+00:00", "last": "2011-09-21T18:41:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-09-19T14:52:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I finally finished *The Book of the Long Sun*. I thought it was\nwonderful, but I do (of course!) have a few questions. The first is, how\ndid Quetzal get on the *Whorl*? The inhumi are natives of Green, so maybe\nhe found some way aboard the *Whorl* while it was in orbit? If so, it would\nseem that they were in orbit for some time, since Quetzal obviously spent\nseveral years on board. Also, why would he try, in his last moments, to get\nthe settlers to go to Green? As food for other inhumi? I haven't read *The\nBook of the Short Sun *yet, so if these inhumi-related questions are\nanswered there, just tell me to read and find out :-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1316446061.53589.YahooMailClassic@web80406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-09-19T15:27:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "oh boy! the Eternal Question rears it's head!\n\n???????? ? ? \n\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Mon, 9/19/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: (urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, September 19, 2011, 7:52 AM\n\nWell, I finally finished The Book of the Long Sun. I thought it was wonderful, but I do (of course!) have a few questions. The first is, how did Quetzal get on the Whorl? The inhumi are natives of Green, so maybe he found some way aboard the Whorl while it was in orbit? If so, it would seem that they were in orbit for some time, since Quetzal obviously spent several years on board. Also, why would he try, in his last moments, to get the settlers to go to Green? As food for other inhumi? I haven't read The Book of the Short Sun yet, so if these inhumi-related questions are answered there, just tell me to read and find out :-)\n\n\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-09-19T15:30:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "<1316446061.53589.YahooMailClassic@web80406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh oh ... I looked at the Urth archives and realized quite a bit of\ndiscussion has been put into this already. I don't mean to resurrect a dead\n/ impossible topic. I can read up in the archives!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\noh boy! the Eternal Question rears it's head!\n\n\n\n\n\n\n--- On *Mon, 9/19/11, Antonin Scriabin * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: (urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, September 19, 2011, 7:52 AM\n\n\nWell, I finally finished *The Book of the Long Sun*. I thought it was\nwonderful, but I do (of course!) have a few questions. The first is, how\ndid Quetzal get on the *Whorl*? The inhumi are natives of Green, so maybe\nhe found some way aboard the *Whorl* while it was in orbit? If so, it\nwould seem that they were in orbit for some time, since Quetzal obviously\nspent several years on board. Also, why would he try, in his last moments,\nto get the settlers to go to Green? As food for other inhumi? I haven't\nread *The Book of the Short Sun *yet, so if these inhumi-related questions\nare answered there, just tell me to read and find out :-)\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1316446461.51790.YahooMailClassic@web80403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-09-19T15:34:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I, for one, am always open to new insights...I went to the source on this one...although without the perfect wording to get an exact answer I'm sure...and the response that I got was?\"Have you read OBW?\"\n\n???????? ? ? \n?Stuart Hamm??| ?Director-Bass ProgramMusicians Institute?| 6752 Hollywood Blvd.,?Hollywood, CA 90028Email??stuarthamm at mi.edu? | ?Tel??323-860-1128 ?Web??mi.edu?? ?? \n\n\n--- On Mon, 9/19/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, September 19, 2011, 8:30 AM\n\nUh oh ... I looked at the Urth archives and realized quite a bit of discussion has been put into this already. I don't mean to resurrect a dead / impossible topic. I can read up in the archives!\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:\n\noh boy! the Eternal Question rears it's head!\n\n???????? ? ? \n\n\n? ?? \n\n\n\n--- On Mon, 9/19/11, Antonin Scriabin \n wrote:\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \n\nSubject: (urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, September 19, 2011, 7:52 AM\n\n\nWell, I finally finished The Book of the Long Sun. I thought it was wonderful, but I do (of course!) have a few questions. The first is, how did Quetzal get on the Whorl? The inhumi are natives of Green, so maybe he found some way aboard the Whorl while it was in orbit? If so, it would seem that they were in orbit for some time, since Quetzal obviously spent several years on board. Also, why would he try, in his last moments, to get the settlers to go to Green? As food for other inhumi? I haven't read The Book of the Short Sun yet, so\n if these inhumi-related questions are answered there, just tell me to read and find out :-)\n\n\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----\n\n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\nUrth Mailing List\n\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1316456874.81004.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-09-19T18:27:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, probably not going to get a definitive answer. Some (who could they be?) think he was there all along, because, according to at least one inhumi in short sun, \"we are everywhere.\"???\n\nQuetzal was there long enough to have an old parent tree in the garden.\n\n--- On Mon, 9/19/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: (urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, September 19, 2011, 7:52 AM\n\n\nWell, I finally finished The Book of the Long Sun. I thought it was wonderful, but I do (of course!) have a few questions. The first is, how did Quetzal get on the Whorl? The inhumi are natives of Green, so maybe he found some way aboard the Whorl while it was in orbit? If so, it would seem that they were in orbit for some time, since Quetzal obviously spent several years on board. Also, why would he try, in his last moments, to get the settlers to go to Green? As food for other inhumi? I haven't read The Book of the Short Sun yet, so if these inhumi-related questions are answered there, just tell me to read and find out :-)\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-09-19T20:38:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "<1316456874.81004.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I remember hearing on this list the theory that the inhumi (be it\njust Quetzal or others also in addition to him) boarded the Whorl\n(presumably by means of the sort of 'space-flight' they're described as\nperforming in Short Sun) for the purpose of reconnoitring a potential food\nsource. That strikes me as fairly straightforward and plausible.\n\nQuetzal, however, is the mystery. I honestly can't decide if he's sinister\nor sincere in his intentions and actions. Maybe he can't decide either.\n Maybe he has lingered there this long, using them as his food source, but\nalso finding himself caught up in their politics and drama with some genuine\nconcern. Indeed, the tensions in his character between exploitation of and\nempathy with his 'hosts' is perhaps inherent to the form-shifting nature of\nthe inhumi. (I use 'form-shifting' rather than 'shape-shifting' to try to\ndenote the more full and complete mimicry that the inhumi achieve with their\nhosts in some respects.) The other inhumi we get to know at any length in\nShort Sun seem to be somewhat mixed in motives and relation to the humans\nalso.\n\nQuetzal certainly made a pleasantly creepy introduction to the final volume\nof the Long Sun. If I hadn't already read OBW and then decided to go back\nto the previous series and catch up, I think his character and alien nature\nwould have totally shocked and surprised me in a very good way. i just\nwouldn't have seen that coming. However, I was still surprised because I\ndidn't know the inhumi were first introduced through this one character in\nthe Long Sun. He's very well rendered by Wolfe, who is a true master at\ncharacterisation of the non- (or at least not entirely) human.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 7:27 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nYeah, probably not going to get a definitive answer. Some (who could they\nbe?) think he was there all along, because, according to at least one inhumi\nin short sun, \"we are everywhere.\"\n\nQuetzal was there long enough to have an old parent tree in the garden.\n\n--- On *Mon, 9/19/11, Antonin Scriabin * wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: (urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question" } ] }, { "message_id": "<837C7E18A5A640D39E3CAA01AF43A462@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-09-19T22:12:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Daniel Petersen " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I remember hearing on this list the theory that the inhumi (be it just Quetzal \nor others also in addition to him) boarded the Whorl (presumably by means of the sort \nof 'space-flight' they're described as performing in Short Sun) for the purpose of \nreconnoitring a potential food source. That strikes me as fairly straightforward and plausible. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I recall matters, we were told that it was the people who later became known as the Neighbours who boarded the Whorl as it approached their system, and infected it with inhumi as an experiment.\n\nThis works better as it seems unlikely that the inhumi could have flown that distance - they could only fly between the twin planets when they were in close conjunction. And also they would probably need some sort of technology to get into the Whorl having landed on it. Carrying a lot of equipment would have made flight difficult. And how could they have hit it anyway? The Whorl has little gravity to pull them in. The Neighbours, by contrast, had legitimate spacecraft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quetzal, however, is the mystery. I honestly can't decide if he's sinister or sincere in his \nintentions and actions. Maybe he can't decide either. Maybe he has lingered there this \nlong, using them as his food source, but also finding himself caught up in their politics \nand drama with some genuine concern. Indeed, the tensions in his character between \nexploitation of and empathy with his 'hosts' is perhaps inherent to the form-shifting nature \nof the inhumi. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is hardly unique to the inhumi. The farmer is sincere in his concern for his cattle. The slave owner may be solicitous regarding the comfort of his slaves.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E77C70C.5080104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-09-19T22:49:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonin Scriabin wrote (19-09-2011 15:52):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I finally finished /The Book of the Long Sun/. I thought it was\nwonderful," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but I do (of course!) have a few questions. The first is, how\ndid Quetzal get on the /Whorl/?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nobody knows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The inhumi are natives of Green, so maybe\nhe found some way aboard the /Whorl/ while it was in orbit? If so, it would\nseem that they were in orbit for some time, since Quetzal obviously spent\nseveral years on board. Also, why would he try, in his last moments, to get\nthe settlers to go to Green?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nobody knows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As food for other inhumi? I haven't read /The\nBook of the Short Sun /yet, so if these inhumi-related questions are\nanswered there, just tell me to read" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and find out :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's another matter." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-09-20T08:08:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "<837C7E18A5A640D39E3CAA01AF43A462@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for clearing that up about the Neighbours, Gerry. I do recall that's\nwhat it was now. Which is weird and disturbing in a way (from our fellow\nhuman perspective) - but I guess they were doing it benevolently -\ninnoculation or something.\n\nYou also said: 'It is hardly unique to the inhumi. The farmer is sincere\nin his concern for his cattle. The slave owner may be solicitous regarding\nthe comfort of his slaves.'\n\nYes, but the Inhumi/Human situation is a little more like one human using\nanother, not as a slave, but as *cattle* - to be slaughtered and eaten. To\nget caught up in the concerns of your food source in this way seems more\ncomplex than the examples you cite, and full of the tensions that can only\ncome from sentient-to-sentient interactions in a morally dubious (not to say\nobjectionable) scenario. It's like the slave situation to some degree, but\nagain, more like one of a tribe of cannibals finding himself concerned with\nthe missionary they're preparing for dinner.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n**\n*From:* Daniel Petersen " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think I remember hearing on this list the theory that the inhumi (be it\njust Quetzal\nor others also in addition to him) boarded the Whorl (presumably by means\nof the sort\nof 'space-flight' they're described as performing in Short Sun) for the\npurpose of\nreconnoitring a potential food source. That strikes me as fairly\nstraightforward and plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I recall matters, we were told that it was the people who later became\nknown as the Neighbours who boarded the Whorl as it approached their system,\nand infected it with inhumi as an experiment.\n\nThis works better as it seems unlikely that the inhumi could have flown\nthat distance - they could only fly between the twin planets when they were\nin close conjunction. And also they would probably need some sort of\ntechnology to get into the Whorl having landed on it. Carrying a lot of\nequipment would have made flight difficult. And how could they have hit it\nanyway? The Whorl has little gravity to pull them in. The Neighbours, by\ncontrast, had legitimate spacecraft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Quetzal, however, is the mystery. I honestly can't decide if he's\nsinister or sincere in his\nintentions and actions. Maybe he can't decide either. Maybe he has\nlingered there this\nlong, using them as his food source, but also finding himself caught up\nin their politics\nand drama with some genuine concern. Indeed, the tensions in his\ncharacter between\nexploitation of and empathy with his 'hosts' is perhaps inherent to the\nform-shifting nature\nof the inhumi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is hardly unique to the inhumi. The farmer is sincere in his concern\nfor his cattle. The slave owner may be solicitous regarding the comfort of\nhis slaves.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E78798E.6060305@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-09-20T11:31:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "<837C7E18A5A640D39E3CAA01AF43A462@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (19-09-2011 23:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Neighbours, by contrast, had legitimate spacecraft." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They did?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-09-20T12:06:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "<4E78798E.6060305@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Neighbours, by contrast, had legitimate spacecraft." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " They did?\n\n\nYeah, I would've thought they'd do their 'dream-travel' gig.\n\n-DOJP\n2011/9/20 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (19-09-2011 23:12):\n\nThe Neighbours, by contrast, had legitimate spacecraft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They did?\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-09-20T13:05:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the first place, it's by no means certain that the Neighbours can dream travel in the same way as Silkhorn + Inhumi, although they may be able to do other things like shift dimensions. But let us accept that dream travel is possible for them. They still could not have reached the Whorl that way, as they were never there before. Nor could they have brought inhumi to infect the Whorl, because inhumi in dream travel become akin to those whose spirits they have stolen. An inhumu who travelled to the Whorl would have been a Neighbour there, just as dream travelling inhumi we meet in the books become human. \n\nThey appear to have had spacecraft (called 'landers' by Silkhorn). They must have used such a technology to reach Green where they met the inhumi. Again, they could not have dream travelled there, and if they could it would have happened earlier, during a pre-technological phase of their history. The Neighbours at the time of the Whorl's advent are technologically aware, detecting the Whorl as it approached their system, and recognising it as a hollowed out asteroid. We could not currently do so well.\n\nAnd again, irrespective of the tevhnology, we are *told* what happened, are we not? And I have not seen any better explanation proposed.. I know soime list members pay little heed to such matters (a similar case is the origin of the Shadow Children and the Abos in _Fifth Head of Cerberus_). My feeling is that one can very easily misinterpret Wolfe by searching too hard for trickery in his books. Wolfe may like to tell the key elements of his stories only once, briefly and obliquely - but tell them he does.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Daniel Petersen \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:06 PM\n Subject: Re: (urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question\n\n\n The Neighbours, by contrast, had legitimate spacecraft.\n\n\n They did? \n\n\n Yeah, I would've thought they'd do their 'dream-travel' gig.\n\n -DOJP\n\n 2011/9/20 Ant?nio Pedro Marques \n\n Gerry Quinn wrote (19-09-2011 23:12): \n\n\n The Neighbours, by contrast, had legitimate spacecraft.\n\n\n\n They did? \n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tim O'Donnell", "address": "timodonn at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-09-20T13:17:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How did Quetzal (and the implied other inhumi) get aboard the Whorl is a\nquestion that has come up a few times before. If we are meant to answer\nthis question within the context of the Long Sun then the mechanism I prefer\nis that the humans have been parked in the green/blue system for some time\nand that some landers have flown down already and returned. This could have\nhappened intentionally as some of the crew flew to Green, discovered\n\"demons\" there and fled; or automatically with mainframe launching landers\nto collect specimens and to ensure that this was a suitable habitat for the\ncargo. Inhumi then could have stowed away and returned to the Whorl this\nway.\n\nWhat happens with Quetzal is a specific instance of the general case in\nWolfe, where an entity impersonates another entity they start to become\nthem; never more so than when their impersonation leads them towards God.\nLike a gravitational field the force of attraction continues to increase\nuntil they become full (agents) of God." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1316528590.70824.YahooMailClassic@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2011-09-20T14:23:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well played Sir! Haven given this subject much thought I believe that you have nailed it...\n\n???????? ? ??? ?? \n\n\n--- On Tue, 9/20/11, Tim O'Donnell wrote:\n\nFrom: Tim O'Donnell \nSubject: (urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question\nTo: urth at urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, September 20, 2011, 6:17 AM\n\nHow did Quetzal (and the implied other inhumi) get aboard the Whorl is a question that has come up a few times before. If we are meant to answer this question within the context of the Long Sun then the mechanism I prefer is that the humans have been parked in the green/blue system for some time and that some landers have flown down already and returned. This could have happened intentionally as some of the crew flew to Green, discovered \"demons\" there and fled; or automatically with mainframe launching landers to collect specimens and to ensure that this was a suitable habitat for the cargo. Inhumi then could have stowed away and returned to the Whorl this way.\n“What happens with Quetzal is a specific instance of the general case in Wolfe, where an entity impersonates another entity they start to become them; never more so than when their impersonation leads them towards God. Like a gravitational field the force of attraction continues to increase until they become full (agents) of God.\n?”????\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E78A2F1.2000807@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-09-20T14:28:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "<1316528590.70824.YahooMailClassic@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remarks: a) the problem of relations between humans and \"cattle\" \nobviously deeply interests GW - all the speaking animals in the \"Long \nSun\", the question of the many-generation\nprisoners of the Antichamber, whether the animals do plead for life when \nthey are\nslaughtered, so it doesn't look strange if similar question is put about \nthe relations\nbetween humans and inhumi.\n\nb) Inhumi (at least, those who are on speaking terms with Horn-Silk) \noften tell\nthat thay try not to kill humans they consider as their \"cattle\", better \ncomparison\nwould be with milking, not slaghtering.\n\nc) Subjectively, Quetzal may think that he will do good for humans \n(again, from\nthe dialogues between Horn-Silk and inhumi it looks like they often \nsincerely think\nthemselves much superior than ordinary human, and from the point of view \nof Horn-Silk they all the time try to invent sophisticated lies to \njustify their deeds).\n\nBest\n\nSergei Soloviev\n\n\nLe Mardi 20 Septembre 2011 10:08 CEST, Daniel Petersen \n a ?crit:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for clearing that up about the Neighbours, Gerry. I do recall that's\nwhat it was now. Which is weird and disturbing in a way (from our fellow\nhuman perspective) - but I guess they were doing it benevolently -\ninnoculation or something.\n\nYou also said: 'It is hardly unique to the inhumi. The farmer is sincere\nin his concern for his cattle. The slave owner may be solicitous regarding\nthe comfort of his slaves.'\n\nYes, but the Inhumi/Human situation is a little more like one human using\nanother, not as a slave, but as *cattle* - to be slaughtered and eaten. To\nget caught up in the concerns of your food source in this way seems more\ncomplex than the examples you cite, and full of the tensions that can only\ncome from sentient-to-sentient interactions in a morally dubious (not to say\nobjectionable) scenario. It's like the slave situation to some degree, but\nagain, more like one of a tribe of cannibals finding himself concerned with\nthe missionary they're preparing for dinner.\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "**\n*From:* Daniel Petersen " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think I remember hearing on this list the theory that the inhumi (be it\njust Quetzal\nor others also in addition to him) boarded the Whorl (presumably by means\nof the sort\nof 'space-flight' they're described as performing in Short Sun) for the\npurpose of\nreconnoitring a potential food source. That strikes me as fairly\nstraightforward and plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I recall matters, we were told that it was the people who later became\nknown as the Neighbours who boarded the Whorl as it approached their system,\nand infected it with inhumi as an experiment.\n\nThis works better as it seems unlikely that the inhumi could have flown\nthat distance - they could only fly between the twin planets when they were\nin close conjunction. And also they would probably need some sort of\ntechnology to get into the Whorl having landed on it. Carrying a lot of\nequipment would have made flight difficult. And how could they have hit it\nanyway? The Whorl has little gravity to pull them in. The Neighbours, by\ncontrast, had legitimate spacecraft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Quetzal, however, is the mystery. I honestly can't decide if he's\nsinister or sincere in his\nintentions and actions. Maybe he can't decide either. Maybe he has\nlingered there this\nlong, using them as his food source, but also finding himself caught up\nin their politics\nand drama with some genuine concern. Indeed, the tensions in his\ncharacter between\nexploitation of and empathy with his 'hosts' is perhaps inherent to the\nform-shifting nature\nof the inhumi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is hardly unique to the inhumi. The farmer is sincere in his concern\nfor his cattle. The slave owner may be solicitous regarding the comfort of\nhis slaves.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E7A011C.2080507@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-09-21T15:22:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Possible precursor to UotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anybody else read Earth Abides (1949) by George R Stewart?\n\nThe protagonist, Ish, spends about the second half of the book \nstruggling with the moral issues of becoming a god to the other \nsurvivors of a global apocalypse. Couldn't help but be reminded of \nSeverian's apotheosis." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E7A2FBC.9010708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-09-21T18:41:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of the Long Sun Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/19/2011 9:52 AM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nWell, I finally finished /The Book of the Long Sun/. I thought it was \nwonderful, but I do (of course!) have a few questions. The first is, \nhow did Quetzal get on the /Whorl/? The inhumi are natives of Green, \nso maybe he found some way aboard the /Whorl/ while it was in orbit?\nIf so, it would seem that they were in orbit for some time, since \nQuetzal obviously spent several years on board. \nAlso, why would he try, in his last moments, to get the settlers to go \nto Green? As food for other inhumi?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe explained in the Q&A (just prior to the release of On Blue's \nWaters) that Quetzal wanted a thriving colony on Green. Why? You have to \nread the books.\nhttp://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html#wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I haven't read /The Book of the Short Sun /yet, so if these \ninhumi-related questions are answered there, just tell me to read and \nfind out :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are lots of ways for the inhumi to have arrived at the Whorl. It \nwould be a spoiler to detail any of them.\n\nJ." } ] } ] }