{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6059", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6059, "subject": "Typhons nature", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "2011-10-09T18:36:47+00:00", "last": "2011-10-11T15:13:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-09T18:36:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhons nature", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SO does anyone else give credence to Borskis idea that Typhon is the\nnieghbor Windcloud? If not, what are some other theories you guys\nhave connecting Typhon with the Short Sun system?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318186299.28992.YahooMailClassic@web161808.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-09T18:51:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhons nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "heh heh heh heh heh heh.\n\nSilk as clone of Typhon/natural son of Typhon; Typhon as otherwise normal but gifted urthling; Typhon from the Short Sun system; Whorl as cosmic Ark that made a big circle in the universe or didn't go anywhere much at all; Short Sun system as future Urth system, thus making Typhon and Sev both natives of Short Sun. \n\nI rather fancy Typhon as a mortal Urthling grasping for immortality.\n\nToo many theories to delineate fully - good luck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 10/9/11, larry miller wrote:\nFrom: larry miller \nSubject: (urth) Typhons nature\nTo: Urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 11:36 AM\nSO does anyone else give credence to\nBorskis idea that Typhon is the\nnieghbor Windcloud? If not, what are some other\ntheories you guys\nhave connecting Typhon with the Short Sun system?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-09T19:54:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhons nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318186299.28992.YahooMailClassic@web161808.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On first read I imagined Typhon as human native of Urth. But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien origin. The theory\nthat Blue/Green is Urth/ Lune has been repeatedly denied by Wolfe so\nIm going to rule that out. The idea that Silk is a clone of Typhon is\ninteresting though. Does anyone have any textual evidence to support\nthis?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/9/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\nheh heh heh heh heh heh.\n\nSilk as clone of Typhon/natural son of Typhon; Typhon as otherwise normal\nbut gifted urthling; Typhon from the Short Sun system; Whorl as cosmic Ark\nthat made a big circle in the universe or didn't go anywhere much at all;\nShort Sun system as future Urth system, thus making Typhon and Sev both\nnatives of Short Sun.\n\nI rather fancy Typhon as a mortal Urthling grasping for immortality.\n\nToo many theories to delineate fully - good luck.\n\n--- On Sun, 10/9/11, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: larry miller \nSubject: (urth) Typhons nature\nTo: Urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 11:36 AM\nSO does anyone else give credence to\nBorskis idea that Typhon is the\nnieghbor Windcloud? If not, what are some other\ntheories you guys\nhave connecting Typhon with the Short Sun system?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318196075.61346.YahooMailClassic@web161807.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-09T21:34:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhons nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 10/9/11, larry miller wrote:\nFrom: larry miller \nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhons nature\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, October 9, 2011, 12:54 PM\nOn first read I imagined Typhon as\nhuman native of Urth. But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien\norigin. The theory\nthat Blue/Green is Urth/ Lune has been repeatedly denied by\nWolfe so\nIm going to rule that out. The idea that Silk is a\nclone of Typhon is\ninteresting though. Does anyone have any textual\nevidence to support\nthis?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you look up some older threads, one was titled \"Mamelta is Kypris\", and there should be one titled \"the summary for the case of Silk as a clone of Typhon\" or something. The textual evidence for Silk as a son include the multiple times that it is asserted that Pas wants a suitable heir, Silk seeing two sets of parents in his vision, Silk seeing his own head on Typhon's two headed body at the end of Exodus. The clone theory of, I believe, James Wynn, is not only that image but a mapping of some external mythologies that Auk and Silk seem to re-enact over the course of Long Sun, and the idea that Typhon wants his own face to continue throughout time, thus stealing Piaton's body.\n\nA caveat here is that some believe Tussah to be an additional clone, but this is not substantiated by the very lengthy section in Exodus where Chenille and Silk are explicitly said to not resemble each other, while Chenille, when sunburned, resembles the old calde whose bust is in Silk's closet. I prefer the natural son theory, but there is a disturbig scene at the end of Nightside where Silk thinks about being doubled into a \"nightside\" version, and there are some statements in Short Sun about the gods trying to regrow themselves from seed, in effect what Typhon did (mentioned somewhat like that in an aside)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D749413FCEE4B6C897628289842C386@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-09T22:04:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhons nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318196075.61346.YahooMailClassic@web161807.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you look up some older threads, one was titled \"Mamelta is Kypris\",\nand there should be one titled \"the summary for the case of Silk as a\nclone of Typhon\" or something. The textual evidence for Silk as a son\ninclude the multiple times that it is asserted that Pas wants a suitable\nheir, Silk seeing two sets of parents in his vision, Silk seeing his own\nhead on Typhon's two headed body at the end of Exodus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All these are fairly easily explicable without the assumption that Silk is \nrelated to Typhon.\n\n1. It was Typhon who wanted an heir. Pas was a potentially immortal \ndigitised entity, who didn't need one. [Perhaps the failure to produce a \nsuitable heir was part of Typhon's motivation for creating the Whorl and \nPas.]\n\n2. We know Silk was an implanted embryo, so it is no surprise that he has \ntwo sets of parents; his genetic parents back on Urth a thousand years ago, \nand his surrogate parents in the Whorl.\n\n3. The vision of Silk's head on Typhon's body was an illustration created by \nKypris to encourage Silk to be scanned and joined to Pas in Mainframe.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318198053.75550.YahooMailClassic@web161820.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-09T22:07:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhons nature", "in_reply_to": "<8D749413FCEE4B6C897628289842C386@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 10/9/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nAll these are fairly easily explicable without the\nassumption that Silk is related to Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes they are, Gerry. Then we simply accept we don't meet his parents. If they weren't explicable otherwise, it would be immediately obvious. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T15:13:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhons nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318196075.61346.YahooMailClassic@web161807.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller: On first read I imagined Typhon as human native of Urth. But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien origin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWelcome Larry! I generally agree with most of your conclusions posted so far. The \nquestion of alien vs. human origins is not so clear cut for me. \n \nMy interpretation of the Sun Series is that pretty much all the types of beings are\nof Urth/human origin. In the first wave of galactic exploration, humans spread \nthrough the galaxy and mutated/evolved. I agree that the naming conventions are\nimportant and denote a direction to the evolution. Some evolved into monstrous\nbeings (Abaia, Scylla, Typhon), some became sort of Greco-Roman demi-gods (Inire, \nCumaean) and some became angelic (Tzadkiel). Baldanders illustrates that the \nevolution isn't necessarily a natural process.\n \nThe Urth series is a story about some of these mutants returning to the mother planet. \nThe Long/Short Sun series is about original human stock moving out to interact with some \nof the mutants like Inhumi and Neighbors. It may be a hackneyed theme but I believe this \nis Wolfe's disguised but deliberate intent to explore the idea of a scientific origin to \nour myths: gods, monsters, angels, demons, vampires, etc. (Werewolves in the Soldier series?)\n \nNeglected in the discussion of Typhon's nature is the connection to the Mandragora.\nMythological Typhon was a man-dragon and only these two Urth characters have the powers\nof clairvoyance and telepathy. I think most agree that Typhon's line about not being\nborn is significant. I agree with the idea that both Typhon and the Mandragora\n(and other megatherians) were grown from the mythic \"black beans\" and decanted (to\nuse the Huxley term) from some sort of artificial womb (a process not completed for \nthe poor Mandragora).\n \nNot completely incidentally, the plant by the same, essential name, mandrake, is known\nas a magical root but in reality contains the same hallucinogenic alkaloid, atropine,\nfound in most of the nightshade family. These plants and their production of flying\nand sexual delusions was a primary historical inspiration for the witchcraft cult which\nexisted pre- and parallel to Christianity. My view, based on Wolfe interviews, is that \nthe entire Urth/Sun universe is one parallel (or \"earlier\") to our own. A universe in\nwhich a true Jesus Christ never appeared so that humanity spent its history and future\ndominated by other forces such as the gods, monsters and witchcraft which have been \nmentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait who was Typhons wife? Was that Echidna?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, both in Greek mythology and in the Sun series. In mythology they are known as the\n\"Father\" and \"Mother of All Monsters\" and I believe they share that role in these books.\nNot a coincidence, I think, that the giant being on Blue is called \"The Mother\". \nInterestingly, one of Typhon and Echidna's offspring was Cerberus, a likely avatar of Gene\nWolfe, himself. Only one of many perturbing personal references in Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: The councilors' discussion of Mucor and the missing embryo that was Silk \nmakes it very clear that they are much the same. Surgery can't explain a \n\"magic\" embryo. But the very fact that it's an embryo is a clear signal \nthat the origin of its magic is fundamentally genetic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. To me, an important aspect of the Mucor character is to shed light on Typhon and \nhis abilities. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }