{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6060", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6060, "subject": "Typhon's nature", "messages": 208, "voices": 14, "first": "2011-10-09T21:37:33+00:00", "last": "2011-10-23T05:25:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-09T21:37:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\nSO does anyone else give credence to Borskis idea that Typhon is the\nnieghbor Windcloud?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the main evidence for Typhon as Neighbour was that they both\nhave doubled body parts; but I don't find this plausible, as Typhon's\ndoubled part was artificial." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-09T21:46:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\n\nOn first read I imagined Typhon as human native of Urth. ?But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien origin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it does, really. It's not humans, as such, but\nCommonwealth citizens who have saint's names; Ash, for instance, or\nLoyal to the Group of Seventeen don't. (Also Baldanders seems to be\nhuman in origin but to have adopted a monstrous name when he became a\nmonster.) And this principle is carried on into Long Sun/Short Sun;\npeople born in the Commonwealth region on Urth (Mamelta, Roger) have\nsaints' names, though no one else does. Also, here Typhon's daughter\nhas a saint's name - Cilinia - which seems to imply that she is human.\n\nI don't know if Typhon is an Urthling, or an off-earth human from one\nof the planets settled during the first empire; but I don't think he's\ntotally alien." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-09T22:49:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the Sword of the Lictor Typhon says a few things that seems to\nindicate an alien origin. He tells Severian that \"I was not born, at\nleast not in the way you mean it\". Also Typhon says that though he\nhas lived a day he has sent his thoughts to far places, seemingly\nmaking contact with the megatherians. This seems very similiar to the\nastral abilities possessed by the Nieghbors. Was Cillinia born on the\nWhorl or Urth? Perhaps she has a saints name because she was fathered\nby Piaton and then later adopted by the alien Monarch?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/9/11, Andrew Mason wrote:\nLarry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On first read I imagined Typhon as human native of Urth. ?But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think it does, really. It's not humans, as such, but\nCommonwealth citizens who have saint's names; Ash, for instance, or\nLoyal to the Group of Seventeen don't. (Also Baldanders seems to be\nhuman in origin but to have adopted a monstrous name when he became a\nmonster.) And this principle is carried on into Long Sun/Short Sun;\npeople born in the Commonwealth region on Urth (Mamelta, Roger) have\nsaints' names, though no one else does. Also, here Typhon's daughter\nhas a saint's name - Cilinia - which seems to imply that she is human.\n\nI don't know if Typhon is an Urthling, or an off-earth human from one\nof the planets settled during the first empire; but I don't think he's\ntotally alien.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E923EA3.1080003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-10T00:38:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A simpler explanation of Typhon's remark is that he was born as Silk was \nborn, i.e., from a surrogate mother.\n\nRecall Macbeth, where the witches' prophecy \"not of woman born\" was \nfulfilled by a cesarean birth. Surely Typhon outdoes Macduff (we are not \nmuch impressed by c-sections today) but probably it doesn't need to be \nby much. Perhaps he was grown in a vat and \"decanted\" or even \ngenetically \"designed,\" but he'd still need a human body to parasitize." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/9/2011 6:49 PM, larry miller wrote:\nIn the Sword of the Lictor Typhon says a few things that seems to\nindicate an alien origin. He tells Severian that \"I was not born, at\nleast not in the way you mean it\". Also Typhon says that though he\nhas lived a day he has sent his thoughts to far places, seemingly\nmaking contact with the megatherians. This seems very similiar to the\nastral abilities possessed by the Nieghbors. Was Cillinia born on the\nWhorl or Urth? Perhaps she has a saints name because she was fathered\nby Piaton and then later adopted by the alien Monarch?\n\nOn 10/9/11, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On first read I imagined Typhon as human native of Urth. But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think it does, really. It's not humans, as such, but\nCommonwealth citizens who have saint's names; Ash, for instance, or\nLoyal to the Group of Seventeen don't. (Also Baldanders seems to be\nhuman in origin but to have adopted a monstrous name when he became a\nmonster.) And this principle is carried on into Long Sun/Short Sun;\npeople born in the Commonwealth region on Urth (Mamelta, Roger) have\nsaints' names, though no one else does. Also, here Typhon's daughter\nhas a saint's name - Cilinia - which seems to imply that she is human.\n\nI don't know if Typhon is an Urthling, or an off-earth human from one\nof the planets settled during the first empire; but I don't think he's\ntotally alien.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T00:42:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E923EA3.1080003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Scottish Play, if you please. I'll not have you bringing ill\nfortune on us all.\n\nyvt,\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nA simpler explanation of Typhon's remark is that he was born as Silk was\nborn, i.e., from a surrogate mother.\n\nRecall Macbeth, where the witches' prophecy \"not of woman born\" was\nfulfilled by a cesarean birth. Surely Typhon outdoes Macduff (we are not\nmuch impressed by c-sections today) but probably it doesn't need to be by\nmuch. Perhaps he was grown in a vat and \"decanted\" or even genetically\n\"designed,\" but he'd still need a human body to parasitize.\n\nOn 10/9/2011 6:49 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the Sword of the Lictor Typhon says a few things that seems to\nindicate an alien origin. He tells “Severian that \"I was not born, at\nleast not in the way you mean it\". — Also Typhon says that though he\nhas lived a day he has sent his thoughts to far places, seemingly\nmaking contact with the megatherians. ?This seems very similiar to the\nastral abilities possessed by the Nieghbors. ?Was Cillinia born on the\nWhorl or Urth” “Perhaps she has a saints name because she was fathered\nby Piaton and then later adopted by the alien Monarch”\n\nOn 10/9/11, Andrew Mason ?wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On first read I imagined Typhon as human native of Urth. ?But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think it does, really. It's not humans, as such, but\nCommonwealth citizens who have saint's names; Ash, for instance, or\nLoyal to the Group of Seventeen don't. (Also Baldanders seems to be\nhuman in origin but to have adopted a monstrous name when he became a\nmonster.) ?And this principle is carried on into Long Sun/Short Sun;\npeople born in the Commonwealth region on Urth (Mamelta, Roger) have\nsaints' names, though no one else does. Also, here Typhon's daughter\nhas a saint's name - Cilinia - which seems to imply that she is human.\n\nI don't know if Typhon is an Urthling, or an off-earth human from one\nof the planets settled during the first empire; but I don't think he's\ntotally alien.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E92407C.1070308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-10T00:46:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "aw, break a leg!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/9/2011 8:42 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nThe Scottish Play, if you please. I'll not have you bringing ill\nfortune on us all.\n\nyvt,\nLH\n\nOn Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A simpler explanation of Typhon's remark is that he was born as Silk was\nborn, i.e., from a surrogate mother.\n\nRecall Macbeth, where the witches' prophecy \"not of woman born\" was\nfulfilled by a cesarean birth. Surely Typhon outdoes Macduff (we are not\nmuch impressed by c-sections today) but probably it doesn't need to be by\nmuch. Perhaps he was grown in a vat and \"decanted\" or even genetically\n\"designed,\" but he'd still need a human body to parasitize.\n\nOn 10/9/2011 6:49 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In the Sword of the Lictor Typhon says a few things that seems to\nindicate an alien origin. He tells Severian that \"I was not born, at\nleast not in the way you mean it\". Also Typhon says that though he\nhas lived a day he has sent his thoughts to far places, seemingly\nmaking contact with the megatherians. This seems very similiar to the\nastral abilities possessed by the Nieghbors. Was Cillinia born on the\nWhorl or Urth? Perhaps she has a saints name because she was fathered\nby Piaton and then later adopted by the alien Monarch?\n\nOn 10/9/11, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On first read I imagined Typhon as human native of Urth. But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't think it does, really. It's not humans, as such, but\nCommonwealth citizens who have saint's names; Ash, for instance, or\nLoyal to the Group of Seventeen don't. (Also Baldanders seems to be\nhuman in origin but to have adopted a monstrous name when he became a\nmonster.) And this principle is carried on into Long Sun/Short Sun;\npeople born in the Commonwealth region on Urth (Mamelta, Roger) have\nsaints' names, though no one else does. Also, here Typhon's daughter\nhas a saint's name - Cilinia - which seems to imply that she is human.\n\nI don't know if Typhon is an Urthling, or an off-earth human from one\nof the planets settled during the first empire; but I don't think he's\ntotally alien.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T01:05:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E92407C.1070308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or maybe that particular body of Typhons was grown from an embryo (Or\none of Jonas beans) and then downloaded into it when his original body\ndied? I dont have the book on hand but I also seem to remember him\ncommenting on the longevity of physical bodies in contrast to the\nlongevity of consciousness. Perhaps this wasn't in reference to human\nbodies but to his original alien form. Any thoughts on his other\ncomment about sending his thoughts out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/9/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\naw, break a leg!\n\nOn 10/9/2011 8:42 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Scottish Play, if you please. I'll not have you bringing ill\nfortune on us all.\n\nyvt,\nLH\n\nOn Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:38 PM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A simpler explanation of Typhon's remark is that he was born as Silk was\nborn, i.e., from a surrogate mother.\n\nRecall Macbeth, where the witches' prophecy \"not of woman born\" was\nfulfilled by a cesarean birth. Surely Typhon outdoes Macduff (we are not\nmuch impressed by c-sections today) but probably it doesn't need to be by\nmuch. Perhaps he was grown in a vat and \"decanted\" or even genetically\n\"designed,\" but he'd still need a human body to parasitize.\n\nOn 10/9/2011 6:49 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "In the Sword of the Lictor Typhon says a few things that seems to\nindicate an alien origin. He tells Severian that \"I was not born, at\nleast not in the way you mean it\". Also Typhon says that though he\nhas lived a day he has sent his thoughts to far places, seemingly\nmaking contact with the megatherians. This seems very similiar to the\nastral abilities possessed by the Nieghbors. Was Cillinia born on the\nWhorl or Urth? Perhaps she has a saints name because she was fathered\nby Piaton and then later adopted by the alien Monarch?\n\nOn 10/9/11, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On first read I imagined Typhon as human native of Urth. But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don't think it does, really. It's not humans, as such, but\nCommonwealth citizens who have saint's names; Ash, for instance, or\nLoyal to the Group of Seventeen don't. (Also Baldanders seems to be\nhuman in origin but to have adopted a monstrous name when he became a\nmonster.) And this principle is carried on into Long Sun/Short Sun;\npeople born in the Commonwealth region on Urth (Mamelta, Roger) have\nsaints' names, though no one else does. Also, here Typhon's daughter\nhas a saint's name - Cilinia - which seems to imply that she is human.\n\nI don't know if Typhon is an Urthling, or an off-earth human from one\nof the planets settled during the first empire; but I don't think he's\ntotally alien.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E929F13.8060704@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T07:30:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/9/2011 8:05 PM, larry miller wrote:\nOr maybe that particular body of Typhons was grown from an embryo (Or\none of Jonas beans) and then downloaded into it when his original body\ndied? I dont have the book on hand but I also seem to remember him\ncommenting on the longevity of physical bodies in contrast to the\nlongevity of consciousness. Perhaps this wasn't in reference to human\nbodies but to his original alien form. Any thoughts on his other\ncomment about sending his thoughts out?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Typhon was a clone to begin with, and could transfer his \nconsciousness at will, why bother with the head graft? Just possess \nanother clone brother.\n\nConsequently, I believe that Typhon's disclaimer of being born must have \nbeen originally a reference to his then surgically assembled nature. His \nthoughts being sent into far places could easily have been him spying \nthrough the remaining technological outposts similar to the speaking \nmachines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception hall. He may have \nhad telepresences there to keep his ruling face au courant." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T10:53:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E929F13.8060704@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I Believe that was Typhons plan to download into another clone body\nbut something happened which prevented this. The Mandragora we see at\nthe end of Citadel is probably this discarded clone body. Your point\nabout Typhon using communication devices is interesting though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/9/2011 8:05 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or maybe that particular body of Typhons was grown from an embryo (Or\none of Jonas beans) and then downloaded into it when his original body\ndied? I dont have the book on hand but I also seem to remember him\ncommenting on the longevity of physical bodies in contrast to the\nlongevity of consciousness. Perhaps this wasn't in reference to human\nbodies but to his original alien form. Any thoughts on his other\ncomment about sending his thoughts out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Typhon was a clone to begin with, and could transfer his\nconsciousness at will, why bother with the head graft? Just possess\nanother clone brother.\n\nConsequently, I believe that Typhon's disclaimer of being born must have\nbeen originally a reference to his then surgically assembled nature. His\nthoughts being sent into far places could easily have been him spying\nthrough the remaining technological outposts similar to the speaking\nmachines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception hall. He may have\nhad telepresences there to keep his ruling face au courant.\n\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E92E5A7.5010003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-10T12:31:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure anyone has suggested before that Typhon is an alien mind in \na human body (who for some reason is very attached to his body's face). \nNor that the \"beans\" are human/oid embryos. It seems possible and not \ninconsistent with the BotNS universe or Wolfe in general.\n\nWe do know (or suspect) that the sea-Mothers on Blue and Urth are \nphysical sisters. Moving minds ought to be easier than bodies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/9/2011 9:05 PM, larry miller wrote:\nOr maybe that particular body of Typhons was grown from an embryo (Or\none of Jonas beans) and then downloaded into it when his original body\ndied? I dont have the book on hand but I also seem to remember him\ncommenting on the longevity of physical bodies in contrast to the\nlongevity of consciousness. Perhaps this wasn't in reference to human\nbodies but to his original alien form. Any thoughts on his other\ncomment about sending his thoughts out?\n\nOn 10/9/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "aw, break a leg!\n\nOn 10/9/2011 8:42 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The Scottish Play, if you please. I'll not have you bringing ill\nfortune on us all.\n\nyvt,\nLH\n\nOn Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:38 PM, David Stockhoff\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "A simpler explanation of Typhon's remark is that he was born as Silk was\nborn, i.e., from a surrogate mother.\n\nRecall Macbeth, where the witches' prophecy \"not of woman born\" was\nfulfilled by a cesarean birth. Surely Typhon outdoes Macduff (we are not\nmuch impressed by c-sections today) but probably it doesn't need to be by\nmuch. Perhaps he was grown in a vat and \"decanted\" or even genetically\n\"designed,\" but he'd still need a human body to parasitize.\n\nOn 10/9/2011 6:49 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "In the Sword of the Lictor Typhon says a few things that seems to\nindicate an alien origin. He tells Severian that \"I was not born, at\nleast not in the way you mean it\". Also Typhon says that though he\nhas lived a day he has sent his thoughts to far places, seemingly\nmaking contact with the megatherians. This seems very similiar to the\nastral abilities possessed by the Nieghbors. Was Cillinia born on the\nWhorl or Urth? Perhaps she has a saints name because she was fathered\nby Piaton and then later adopted by the alien Monarch?\n\nOn 10/9/11, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On first read I imagined Typhon as human native of Urth. But Wolfes\nnaming strategum points at Typhon being of alien origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I don't think it does, really. It's not humans, as such, but\nCommonwealth citizens who have saint's names; Ash, for instance, or\nLoyal to the Group of Seventeen don't. (Also Baldanders seems to be\nhuman in origin but to have adopted a monstrous name when he became a\nmonster.) And this principle is carried on into Long Sun/Short Sun;\npeople born in the Commonwealth region on Urth (Mamelta, Roger) have\nsaints' names, though no one else does. Also, here Typhon's daughter\nhas a saint's name - Cilinia - which seems to imply that she is human.\n\nI don't know if Typhon is an Urthling, or an off-earth human from one\nof the planets settled during the first empire; but I don't think he's\ntotally alien.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 111009-1, 10/09/2011\nTested on: 10/9/2011 6:49:45 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 111009-1, 10/09/2011\nTested on: 10/9/2011 8:38:59 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E92E879.1040103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-10T12:43:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E929F13.8060704@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/9/2011 8:05 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or maybe that particular body of Typhons was grown from an embryo (Or\none of Jonas beans) and then downloaded into it when his original body\ndied? I dont have the book on hand but I also seem to remember him\ncommenting on the longevity of physical bodies in contrast to the\nlongevity of consciousness. Perhaps this wasn't in reference to human\nbodies but to his original alien form. Any thoughts on his other\ncomment about sending his thoughts out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Typhon was a clone to begin with, and could transfer his \nconsciousness at will, why bother with the head graft? Just possess \nanother clone brother.\n\nConsequently, I believe that Typhon's disclaimer of being born must \nhave been originally a reference to his then surgically assembled \nnature. His thoughts being sent into far places could easily have been \nhim spying through the remaining technological outposts similar to the \nspeaking machines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception hall. \nHe may have had telepresences there to keep his ruling face au courant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that this would require \"outposts\" at the south pole and under \nthe sea.\n\nTrue that any embryo-implanting technology should encompass cloning, \nsince we know cloning was used to create the uhlans, and therefore the \nhead graft would seem to be rendered unnecessary by mind-transfer \ntechnology. However, we don't know for sure whether mind-scanning is \nfatal (as in TFHoC) or not, and Typhon is not a guy who would want a \nsecond Typhon running around even briefly. Doesn't that make it a little \nless simple? (As opposed to godlike possession powers, which clearly are \nnot called for here---we know Pas was created by scanning.)\n\nI don't think the head graft could possibly be taken as a form of \n\"birth\" in any sense. Something more like actual birth is meant." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E92FED8.3090709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-10T14:19:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E92E879.1040103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On rereading, it is somewhat ambiguous---\n\n\"No, I was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meantit. Nor was \nPiaton grafted to me. I was grafted to him. \"\n\n---but still leads to only one clean conclusion. Typhon is referring, \nwith \"as I am\" to his apparent two-headed condition, since Severian \nplainly asked about it, but \"or born at all, as you meantit\" must be an \naside referring to something Severian did not refer to except with the \nword \"born\" itself. Severian has no reason to think Typhon was NOT born, \nso his assumption is the usual kind of birth (but including c-section as \na matter of course, since he is familiar with it). In addition he asks \nhow Typhon got that way.\n\nBut Typhon does not think of his current configuration, with his head on \na whole body, as \"himself\" but rather as his riding a \"steed.\" He means:\n\n---I was not born with no body of my own\n---Furthermore, I was not born at all, with body or not\n\nThe rest is a response to Severian's \"was Piaton's head attached to \nyou.\" Thus, Typhon was not originally born in the usual manner.\n\nAny other interpretation would require that Typhon thinks of himself as \ntwo-headed. He doesn't. If he did, he would mean:\n\n---I was not born two-headed\n---I was surgically made two-headed\n\nSo that's not what he means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 8:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/10/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/9/2011 8:05 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or maybe that particular body of Typhons was grown from an embryo (Or\none of Jonas beans) and then downloaded into it when his original body\ndied? I dont have the book on hand but I also seem to remember him\ncommenting on the longevity of physical bodies in contrast to the\nlongevity of consciousness. Perhaps this wasn't in reference to human\nbodies but to his original alien form. Any thoughts on his other\ncomment about sending his thoughts out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Typhon was a clone to begin with, and could transfer his \nconsciousness at will, why bother with the head graft? Just possess \nanother clone brother.\n\nConsequently, I believe that Typhon's disclaimer of being born must \nhave been originally a reference to his then surgically assembled \nnature. His thoughts being sent into far places could easily have \nbeen him spying through the remaining technological outposts similar \nto the speaking machines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception \nhall. He may have had telepresences there to keep his ruling face au \ncourant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except that this would require \"outposts\" at the south pole and under \nthe sea.\n\nTrue that any embryo-implanting technology should encompass cloning, \nsince we know cloning was used to create the uhlans, and therefore the \nhead graft would seem to be rendered unnecessary by mind-transfer \ntechnology. However, we don't know for sure whether mind-scanning is \nfatal (as in TFHoC) or not, and Typhon is not a guy who would want a \nsecond Typhon running around even briefly. Doesn't that make it a \nlittle less simple? (As opposed to godlike possession powers, which \nclearly are not called for here---we know Pas was created by scanning.)\n\nI don't think the head graft could possibly be taken as a form of \n\"birth\" in any sense. Something more like actual birth is meant.\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 111010-0, 10/10/2011\nTested on: 10/10/2011 8:43:38 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T15:38:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E92FED8.3090709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah the passage is really ambiguous. Ive just been stuck on the idea\nthat Typhon was an alien since rereading BotNS the second time and\nlearning later of Wolfes naming strategum cemented the idea in my\nmind. All we know for sure is that Piaton is not Typhons original\nbody. The links between Scylla and Typhon suggest that maybe his\noriginal form was that of a megatherian. I think Jonas telling the\nbeans story in the same chapter of the Piteous Gate (most likely\ncaused by the undines swimming through the river beyond the wall) is\nWolfes sly way of hinting at a connection. Growing from a bean as\nbeing a way to explain cloning from a frozen embryo seems to fit with\nhigh technology passed off as magic throughout the books. The fact\nthat Wolfe leaves Jonas story unfinished is another big sign that\nreaders are supposed to speculate on these things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn rereading, it is somewhat ambiguous---\n\n\"No, I was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meantit. Nor was\nPiaton grafted to me. I was grafted to him. \"\n\n---but still leads to only one clean conclusion. Typhon is referring,\nwith \"as I am\" to his apparent two-headed condition, since Severian\nplainly asked about it, but \"or born at all, as you meantit\" must be an\naside referring to something Severian did not refer to except with the\nword \"born\" itself. Severian has no reason to think Typhon was NOT born,\nso his assumption is the usual kind of birth (but including c-section as\na matter of course, since he is familiar with it). In addition he asks\nhow Typhon got that way.\n\nBut Typhon does not think of his current configuration, with his head on\na whole body, as \"himself\" but rather as his riding a \"steed.\" He means:\n\n---I was not born with no body of my own\n---Furthermore, I was not born at all, with body or not\n\nThe rest is a response to Severian's \"was Piaton's head attached to\nyou.\" Thus, Typhon was not originally born in the usual manner.\n\nAny other interpretation would require that Typhon thinks of himself as\ntwo-headed. He doesn't. If he did, he would mean:\n\n---I was not born two-headed\n---I was surgically made two-headed\n\nSo that's not what he means.\n\nOn 10/10/2011 8:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/9/2011 8:05 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Or maybe that particular body of Typhons was grown from an embryo (Or\none of Jonas beans) and then downloaded into it when his original body\ndied? I dont have the book on hand but I also seem to remember him\ncommenting on the longevity of physical bodies in contrast to the\nlongevity of consciousness. Perhaps this wasn't in reference to human\nbodies but to his original alien form. Any thoughts on his other\ncomment about sending his thoughts out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If Typhon was a clone to begin with, and could transfer his\nconsciousness at will, why bother with the head graft? Just possess\nanother clone brother.\n\nConsequently, I believe that Typhon's disclaimer of being born must\nhave been originally a reference to his then surgically assembled\nnature. His thoughts being sent into far places could easily have\nbeen him spying through the remaining technological outposts similar\nto the speaking machines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception\nhall. He may have had telepresences there to keep his ruling face au\ncourant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Except that this would require \"outposts\" at the south pole and under\nthe sea.\n\nTrue that any embryo-implanting technology should encompass cloning,\nsince we know cloning was used to create the uhlans, and therefore the\nhead graft would seem to be rendered unnecessary by mind-transfer\ntechnology. However, we don't know for sure whether mind-scanning is\nfatal (as in TFHoC) or not, and Typhon is not a guy who would want a\nsecond Typhon running around even briefly. Doesn't that make it a\nlittle less simple? (As opposed to godlike possession powers, which\nclearly are not called for here---we know Pas was created by scanning.)\n\nI don't think the head graft could possibly be taken as a form of\n\"birth\" in any sense. Something more like actual birth is meant.\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 111010-0, 10/10/2011\nTested on: 10/10/2011 8:43:38 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T16:38:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: larry miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All we know for sure is that Piaton is not Typhons original\nbody. The links between Scylla and Typhon suggest that maybe his\noriginal form was that of a megatherian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we know Typhon's head was human or humanoid, and that he lived on land \nwhen he ruled Urth. I don't think it's tenable to identify him with a sea \nmonster. Nor was his observation \"there are powers in the sea that would \nrule\" followed by \"used to be one myself\".\n\nIn the two later series there is considerable evidence that Typhon was human \nor at least reasonably humanoid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Jonas telling the\nbeans story in the same chapter of the Piteous Gate (most likely\ncaused by the undines swimming through the river beyond the wall) is\nWolfes sly way of hinting at a connection. Growing from a bean as\nbeing a way to explain cloning from a frozen embryo seems to fit with\nhigh technology passed off as magic throughout the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The beans certainly are embryos of some kind (or nano-factories or whatever \nsea monsters develop from). And Wolfe once observed that Damon Knight grew \nhim from a bean. But I don't where you find a connection with Typhon here.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T16:44:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry all, just realised my overaggressive spam filter is messing up the \nthreads, I will delete its comments from the titles of future posts.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9324A5.30704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-10T17:00:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas and Typhon are twins in the sense that they both physically ride \nother bodies. Jonas does appear to then ride another body (Miles) \nwithout any visible technological means of doing so. The door is thus \nopened for Typhon to do the same. But Jonas clearly cares little for his \n\"body.\" Typhon definitely cares a lot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 11:38 AM, larry miller wrote:\nYeah the passage is really ambiguous. Ive just been stuck on the idea\nthat Typhon was an alien since rereading BotNS the second time and\nlearning later of Wolfes naming strategum cemented the idea in my\nmind. All we know for sure is that Piaton is not Typhons original\nbody. The links between Scylla and Typhon suggest that maybe his\noriginal form was that of a megatherian. I think Jonas telling the\nbeans story in the same chapter of the Piteous Gate (most likely\ncaused by the undines swimming through the river beyond the wall) is\nWolfes sly way of hinting at a connection. Growing from a bean as\nbeing a way to explain cloning from a frozen embryo seems to fit with\nhigh technology passed off as magic throughout the books. The fact\nthat Wolfe leaves Jonas story unfinished is another big sign that\nreaders are supposed to speculate on these things.\n\nOn 10/10/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On rereading, it is somewhat ambiguous---\n\n\"No, I was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meantit. Nor was\nPiaton grafted to me. I was grafted to him. \"\n\n---but still leads to only one clean conclusion. Typhon is referring,\nwith \"as I am\" to his apparent two-headed condition, since Severian\nplainly asked about it, but \"or born at all, as you meantit\" must be an\naside referring to something Severian did not refer to except with the\nword \"born\" itself. Severian has no reason to think Typhon was NOT born,\nso his assumption is the usual kind of birth (but including c-section as\na matter of course, since he is familiar with it). In addition he asks\nhow Typhon got that way.\n\nBut Typhon does not think of his current configuration, with his head on\na whole body, as \"himself\" but rather as his riding a \"steed.\" He means:\n\n---I was not born with no body of my own\n---Furthermore, I was not born at all, with body or not\n\nThe rest is a response to Severian's \"was Piaton's head attached to\nyou.\" Thus, Typhon was not originally born in the usual manner.\n\nAny other interpretation would require that Typhon thinks of himself as\ntwo-headed. He doesn't. If he did, he would mean:\n\n---I was not born two-headed\n---I was surgically made two-headed\n\nSo that's not what he means.\n\nOn 10/10/2011 8:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/10/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 10/9/2011 8:05 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Or maybe that particular body of Typhons was grown from an embryo (Or\none of Jonas beans) and then downloaded into it when his original body\ndied? I dont have the book on hand but I also seem to remember him\ncommenting on the longevity of physical bodies in contrast to the\nlongevity of consciousness. Perhaps this wasn't in reference to human\nbodies but to his original alien form. Any thoughts on his other\ncomment about sending his thoughts out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If Typhon was a clone to begin with, and could transfer his\nconsciousness at will, why bother with the head graft? Just possess\nanother clone brother.\n\nConsequently, I believe that Typhon's disclaimer of being born must\nhave been originally a reference to his then surgically assembled\nnature. His thoughts being sent into far places could easily have\nbeen him spying through the remaining technological outposts similar\nto the speaking machines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception\nhall. He may have had telepresences there to keep his ruling face au\ncourant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Except that this would require \"outposts\" at the south pole and under\nthe sea.\n\nTrue that any embryo-implanting technology should encompass cloning,\nsince we know cloning was used to create the uhlans, and therefore the\nhead graft would seem to be rendered unnecessary by mind-transfer\ntechnology. However, we don't know for sure whether mind-scanning is\nfatal (as in TFHoC) or not, and Typhon is not a guy who would want a\nsecond Typhon running around even briefly. Doesn't that make it a\nlittle less simple? (As opposed to godlike possession powers, which\nclearly are not called for here---we know Pas was created by scanning.)\n\nI don't think the head graft could possibly be taken as a form of\n\"birth\" in any sense. Something more like actual birth is meant.\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 111010-0, 10/10/2011\nTested on: 10/10/2011 8:43:38 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E932B84.8000201@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T17:29:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E92E879.1040103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 7:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/10/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His thoughts being sent into far places could easily have been\nhim spying through the remaining technological outposts similar to the\nspeaking machines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception hall.\nHe may have had telepresences there to keep his ruling face au courant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except that this would require \"outposts\" at the south pole and under\nthe sea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don;t know about require; sensors can have ranges and their data may \nbe used to infer details beyond those. An ancient but still functional \nsatllite in orbit above the south pole and the sea could be accessible \nto Typhon \"Hmm, weather patterns continue to deteriorate... Great Me, \nwhat is that THING on the infrared?\"\n\nThe talking machines could intercept intelligence from the Asciians' \ntransmissions and preserve it for their master's review. Jonas, for \nexample, is a machine that knows about the great beasts without being \ncurrently at the south pole or under the sea. He probably lost his \nantennas for far communication, though.\n\nAs to not being born at all, that could mean he was gestated \nmechanically, perhaps like Dr Talos." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T17:45:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In dr. Talos play Scylla is mentioned alongside Abaia and Erebus.\nKnowing that Scylla is part of Typhons family it doesn't seem too\nfarfetched to assume Typhon was originally one of the Megatherians.\nMaybe his bean grown body was humanoid and he transferred into it from\nhis monster form. Then something prevented him from transferring into\nthe Mandragora in Citadel (more than likely a Proto-Chem) and his only\nalternative was to graft his humanoid head onto Piatons body. We know\nthat Typhon as Pas did not get on well with Scylla and the others so\nit makes sense that he would want to enslave them when he regains\ncontrol of the Commonwealth. Typhon more than likely feels as though\nhe has surpassed his waterbound brethren and does not count himself\namong them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\nFrom: larry miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All we know for sure is that Piaton is not Typhons original\nbody. The links between Scylla and Typhon suggest that maybe his\noriginal form was that of a megatherian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we know Typhon's head was human or humanoid, and that he lived on land\nwhen he ruled Urth. I don't think it's tenable to identify him with a sea\nmonster. Nor was his observation \"there are powers in the sea that would\nrule\" followed by \"used to be one myself\".\n\nIn the two later series there is considerable evidence that Typhon was human\nor at least reasonably humanoid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Jonas telling the\nbeans story in the same chapter of the Piteous Gate (most likely\ncaused by the undines swimming through the river beyond the wall) is\nWolfes sly way of hinting at a connection. Growing from a bean as\nbeing a way to explain cloning from a frozen embryo seems to fit with\nhigh technology passed off as magic throughout the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The beans certainly are embryos of some kind (or nano-factories or whatever\nsea monsters develop from). And Wolfe once observed that Damon Knight grew\nhim from a bean. But I don't where you find a connection with Typhon here.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E933279.4000305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-10T17:59:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E932B84.8000201@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 1:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/10/2011 7:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "His thoughts being sent into far places could easily have been\nhim spying through the remaining technological outposts similar to the\nspeaking machines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception hall.\nHe may have had telepresences there to keep his ruling face au courant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Except that this would require \"outposts\" at the south pole and under\nthe sea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don;t know about require; sensors can have ranges and their data may \nbe used to infer details beyond those. An ancient but still functional \nsatllite in orbit above the south pole and the sea could be accessible \nto Typhon \"Hmm, weather patterns continue to deteriorate... Great Me, \nwhat is that THING on the infrared?\"\n\nThe talking machines could intercept intelligence from the Asciians' \ntransmissions and preserve it for their master's review. Jonas, for \nexample, is a machine that knows about the great beasts without being \ncurrently at the south pole or under the sea. He probably lost his \nantennas for far communication, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's possible. It's just a lot to expect the reader to guess. And \nTyphon, by his own account, is not one to speak indirectly. For myself, \nI tend to want to interpret him as neither god nor demigod but as an \nexample of pure hubris. He's like a tower built to reach Heaven. That \nrequires him to have been constructed by humans. Genetics (assuming we \nallow a gene for telepathy, as we must if we allow telepathy, which we \nmust because Mucor exists) explains Silk, Mucor, and Typhon." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T18:16:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: larry miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In dr. Talos play Scylla is mentioned alongside Abaia and Erebus.\nKnowing that Scylla is part of Typhons family it doesn't seem too\nfarfetched to assume Typhon was originally one of the Megatherians." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scylla (the sea monster) and Cilinia (Typhon's daughter whose digitised \npersonality was later named Scylla) are different entities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe his bean grown body was humanoid and he transferred into it from\nhis monster form. Then something prevented him from transferring into\nthe Mandragora in Citadel (more than likely a Proto-Chem) and his only\nalternative was to graft his humanoid head onto Piatons body. We know\nthat Typhon as Pas did not get on well with Scylla and the others so\nit makes sense that he would want to enslave them when he regains\ncontrol of the Commonwealth. Typhon more than likely feels as though\nhe has surpassed his waterbound brethren and does not count himself\namong them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The beans were or symbolised the embryos of the sea monsters. Typhon may \nwell have come from off-Urth, but IMO there's nothing to suggest he was \nvisibly distinct from the average human. He got old or ill and needed a \nfull-body transplant, that's all.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T19:11:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing, by the way, that would count against Typhon being a\nNeighbour, is that Wolfe has said that he did not know about the\ninhumi - which, if he came from Blue, he surely would have known. That\ndoes not rule out his being an alien of some other sort, of course." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T19:48:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah Im not too sure about Typhon being a Neighbor either. I just\nremember reading Borskis idea that he was Windcloud. I am convinced\nthat he is an alien however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/11, Andrew Mason wrote:\nOne thing, by the way, that would count against Typhon being a\nNeighbour, is that Wolfe has said that he did not know about the\ninhumi - which, if he came from Blue, he surely would have known. That\ndoes not rule out his being an alien of some other sort, of course.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T20:59:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait who was Typhons wife? Was that Echidna? My copies of the Long\nSun are packed and Im going off pure memory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\nFrom: larry miller" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In dr. Talos play Scylla is mentioned alongside Abaia and Erebus.\nKnowing that Scylla is part of Typhons family it doesn't seem too\nfarfetched to assume Typhon was originally one of the Megatherians." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Scylla (the sea monster) and Cilinia (Typhon's daughter whose digitised\npersonality was later named Scylla) are different entities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe his bean grown body was humanoid and he transferred into it from\nhis monster form. Then something prevented him from transferring into\nthe Mandragora in Citadel (more than likely a Proto-Chem) and his only\nalternative was to graft his humanoid head onto Piatons body. We know\nthat Typhon as Pas did not get on well with Scylla and the others so\nit makes sense that he would want to enslave them when he regains\ncontrol of the Commonwealth. Typhon more than likely feels as though\nhe has surpassed his waterbound brethren and does not count himself\namong them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The beans were or symbolised the embryos of the sea monsters. Typhon may\nwell have come from off-Urth, but IMO there's nothing to suggest he was\nvisibly distinct from the average human. He got old or ill and needed a\nfull-body transplant, that's all.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9366D8.9030105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T21:42:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E929F13.8060704@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (10-10-2011 08:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Typhon was a clone to begin with, and could transfer his consciousness\nat will, why bother with the head graft? Just possess another clone brother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no transferral of conscience. There is just duplication. If you \nduplicate it and the original dies, the original doesn't get anything from \nthe copy's still being around." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9367B2.5080508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T21:46:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "larry miller wrote (10-10-2011 16:38):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Growing from a bean as\nbeing a way to explain cloning from a frozen embryo" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoa. That would mean Gene Wolfe was cloned from a frozen embryo one night." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E936A0F.6030308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-10T21:56:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9366D8.9030105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the younger.\n\nIf Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them if \nhe transferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that \ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his reluctance to \nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 5:42 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote (10-10-2011 08:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Typhon was a clone to begin with, and could transfer his \nconsciousness\nat will, why bother with the head graft? Just possess another clone \nbrother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no transferral of conscience. There is just duplication. If \nyou duplicate it and the original dies, the original doesn't get \nanything from the copy's still being around.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E937928.3040609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T23:00:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E936A0F.6030308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-10-2011 22:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the younger." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When the older dies, the older dies, regardless of having been copied into \nthe younger. The entity may go on existing for third parties, including the \nyounger clone, but not for itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them if he\ntransferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his reluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a pretty good idea.\nI find that face stuff strange, unless there is some deeper meaning of faces \nto be reckoned with." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-10T23:32:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E937928.3040609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Typhons obssession with his face has more to do with\nmaintaining his rule. His face was probably a symbol of his reign in\nthe same way that the Autarchs face adorns the coin given to Severian\nby Vodalus. I believe he says something along the lines of \"Its the\nface that men obey\". This might also explain Typhons hiding out in\nhis mountain in Urth of the New Sun. If the populace were to know\nthey were ruled by a two headed alien they might threaten Typhons\nmonarchy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (10-10-2011 22:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the\nyounger." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When the older dies, the older dies, regardless of having been copied into\nthe younger. The entity may go on existing for third parties, including the\nyounger clone, but not for itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them if he\ntransferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his reluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a pretty good idea.\nI find that face stuff strange, unless there is some deeper meaning of faces\nto be reckoned with.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E93AE29.1020008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T02:47:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E937928.3040609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 7:00 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (10-10-2011 22:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the \nyounger." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When the older dies, the older dies, regardless of having been copied \ninto the younger. The entity may go on existing for third parties, \nincluding the younger clone, but not for itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't follow. The younger clone would start off his memories at the \npoint where the older was scanned and thus continue on as the same \nentity. At least that's how it works in Home Fires. (The problem would \nbe meeting yourself, which would be resolved in a clone situation by \nassuming scanning = death.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them \nif he\ntransferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his reluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a pretty good idea.\nI find that face stuff strange, unless there is some deeper meaning of \nfaces to be reckoned with." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Typhon says something about loyalty or command, and that makes \nsense. But it's not just the face that conveys presence---especially if \nyou are telepathic. So who knows." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E93AF06.5000301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T02:50:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what he says, yes. I see no reason not to believe Typhon but then \nif he is telepathic that might change things. Of course he is no Mule ....\n\nPresumably he would have shown himself only to his troops, i.e., those \nhe directly commanded, who would have seen his face (he thinks) and \nignored Piaton's. Those would command others etc., so the people might \nnever know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 7:32 PM, larry miller wrote:\nI think Typhons obssession with his face has more to do with\nmaintaining his rule. His face was probably a symbol of his reign in\nthe same way that the Autarchs face adorns the coin given to Severian\nby Vodalus. I believe he says something along the lines of \"Its the\nface that men obey\". This might also explain Typhons hiding out in\nhis mountain in Urth of the New Sun. If the populace were to know\nthey were ruled by a two headed alien they might threaten Typhons\nmonarchy.\n\nOn 10/10/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-10-2011 22:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Unless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the\nyounger." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When the older dies, the older dies, regardless of having been copied into\nthe younger. The entity may go on existing for third parties, including the\nyounger clone, but not for itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them if he\ntransferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his reluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's a pretty good idea.\nI find that face stuff strange, unless there is some deeper meaning of faces\nto be reckoned with.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E93B430.7080505@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T03:12:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E933279.4000305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 12:59 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/10/2011 1:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The talking machines could intercept intelligence from the Asciians'\ntransmissions and preserve it for their master's review. Jonas, for\nexample, is a machine that knows about the great beasts without being\ncurrently at the south pole or under the sea. He probably lost his\nantennas for far communication, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's possible. It's just a lot to expect the reader to guess. And\nTyphon, by his own account, is not one to speak indirectly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But neither is he given to elaborate for the benefit of others.\n\nIt's not so much to guess; Mt Typhon itself is such an outpost and \nTyphon is master of its numerous machines by word. Since he allows \nSeverian to transcend distance and \"see\" distant parts of the Urth as if \npresent above them, it's not such a stretch to think that he can do that \nfor himself and more besides when he's not busy putting on a show to \nsecure his hold on the unsuspecting Conciliator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 4:56 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nUnless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the \nyounger.\n\nIf Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them if\nhe transferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his reluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The nature of his mental powers might include the ability to impress his \nbrain's pattern upon another. He does this a bit, when Sev feels his \nmind gripped by a vise when Typhon tries to make him submit to an oath." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318310722.89842.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T05:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E933279.4000305@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Monday, October 10, 2011 11:59 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon's nature\n\nOn 10/10/2011 1:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 7:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/10/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "His thoughts being sent into far places could easily have been\nhim spying through the remaining technological outposts similar to the\nspeaking machines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception hall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nNo matter how or whether Typhon sent his thoughts to far places, we know he's telepathic. He makes Severian\nsee through his eyes, and he casts a spell to try to get Severian to swear loyalty to him. Severian compares\nthis spell to Decuman's, greatly in Typhon's favor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don;t know about require; sensors can have ranges and their data may be used to infer details beyond those.\nAn ancient but still functional satllite in orbit above the south pole and the sea could be accessible to Typhon\n\"Hmm, weather patterns continue to deteriorate... Great Me, what is that THING on the infrared?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":-)\n\nWith no evidence, I imagine the sea monsters cold-blooded, so they wouldn't show up on the IR." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The talking machines could intercept intelligence from the Asciians' transmissions and preserve it for their\nmaster's review. Jonas, for example, is a machine that knows about the great beasts without being currently at\nthe south pole or under the sea. He probably lost his antennas for far communication, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's possible. It's just a lot to expect the reader to guess. And Typhon, by his own account, is not one to speak\nindirectly. For myself, I tend to want to interpret him as neither god nor demigod but as an example of pure hubris. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm inclined to agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's like a tower built to reach Heaven. That requires him to have been constructed by humans. Genetics\n(assuming we allow a gene for telepathy, as we must if we allow telepathy, which we must because Mucor\nexists) explains Silk, Mucor, and Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we know Mucor's talent is genetic? Maybe it's the result of an implant or? brain surgery or magic performed\non her embryo. Or are you using \"genetic\" as a shorthand for some broader idea?\n\nIt seems to me Typhon's psionic talents are quite possible for humans in Briah, considering Mucor and\nDecuman. We have no idea what enhancement and special training Typhon might have.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E93F079.8050903@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T07:30:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318310722.89842.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 12:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nNo matter how or whether Typhon sent his thoughts to far places, we know he's telepathic. He makes Severian\nsee through his eyes, and he casts a spell to try to get Severian to swear loyalty to him. Severian compares\nthis spell to Decuman's, greatly in Typhon's favor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon has some mental and some technological effects going in that \nscene, it's debateable which particular element arises from which \norigin. However, the seeing through his eyes part is overtly a figure of \nspeech, because they are looking out through the pupils sculpted into \nTyphon's mountainous likeness. It *might* be a double-meaning, but \nTyphon's facial eyes can't see over the curvature of the Urth any more \nthan Sev's can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don;t know about require; sensors can have ranges and their data may be used to infer details beyond those.\nAn ancient but still functional satllite in orbit above the south pole and the sea could be accessible to Typhon\n\"Hmm, weather patterns continue to deteriorate... Great Me, what is that THING on the infrared?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ":-)\n\nWith no evidence, I imagine the sea monsters cold-blooded, so they wouldn't show up on the IR." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.flickr.com/photos/yoshihirata/\n\nhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071015215148.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The talking machines could intercept intelligence from the Asciians' transmissions and preserve it for their\nmaster's review. Jonas, for example, is a machine that knows about the great beasts without being currently at\nthe south pole or under the sea. He probably lost his antennas for far communication, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's possible. It's just a lot to expect the reader to guess. And Typhon, by his own account, is not one to speak\nindirectly. For myself, I tend to want to interpret him as neither god nor demigod but as an example of pure hubris." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm inclined to agree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon's got loads of hubris, but he's not all false pride; like \nAlexander, he did accomplish things no other man approached." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tim O'Donnell", "address": "timodonn at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T08:30:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E93F079.8050903@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that Mucor is a clue to the nature of Typhon. Mucor has mental\npowers that arise genetically and she\nwas born from an embryo purchased by Blood. That embryo must derive from\nthe time of Typhon. We don't know\nwhether Mucor was created through selective breeding or genetic manipulation\nor both. I don't think it matters though,\nwe have evidence that mental powers are associated with embryos bred for the\npurposes. Is this what Typhon means\nwhen he says he was not born as such? He may have been raised in vitro.\n\nWhich only raises more questions about Typhon's origins to me. Was he\nperhaps a slave himself, the product of a genetic\nbreeding program? I could go on but I know I am in the realm of sheer\nconjecture at this point.\n___________________________________________________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E941BB6.20204@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T10:34:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E936A0F.6030308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 4:56 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nUnless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the younger.\n\nIf Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them if\nhe transferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his reluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The nature of his mental powers might include the ability to impress his \nbrain's pattern upon another. He does this a bit, when Sev feels his \nmind gripped by a vise when Typhon tries to make him submit to an oath." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<56106D2EDD3F481BA01D9C803FAE9097@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T11:40:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318310722.89842.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No matter how or whether Typhon sent his thoughts to far places, we know\nhe's telepathic. He makes Severian see through his eyes, and he casts a \nspell to try to get Severian to swear loyalty to him. Severian compares\nthis spell to Decuman's, greatly in Typhon's favor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t read too much into this. Typhon is a powerful and charismatic individual; I wouldn’t be surprised if in the _BotNS_ universe such individuals typically have some sort of telepathic power. Like Jeff, I don’t think it’s important whether he uses telepathy or some kind of techno-magic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we know Mucor's talent is genetic? Maybe it's the result of an implant or \nbrain surgery or magic performed on her embryo. Or are you using \"genetic\" \nas a shorthand for some broader idea?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course Dr. Crane cannot know the details, but I think we should heed his observation that Mucor’s parents (her genetic parents, that is) met in a petri dish. [I imagine the same applies to Silk.] Presumably the embryos were then genetically or otherwise engineered. We know Mucor’s brain developed in an abnormal fashion, and after brain surgery her powers were suppressed for a time but eventually came back. So I imagine the telepathic powers must inhere in brain tissue, and probably exist to some extent in everyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me Typhon's psionic talents are quite possible for humans in Briah, considering Mucor and\nDecuman. We have no idea what enhancement and special training Typhon might have." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never saw him as primarily a telepath, but indeed perhaps telepathy was a greater part of his powers than I had thought. But I think his chief powers were charisma, leadership, and military strategy. [That’s why I think a lot of Pas is coming out in SilkHorn as he wanders Blue on his way back to his (Silk’s) island.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E942DA7.9030004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T11:51:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E93B430.7080505@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 11:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/10/2011 12:59 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 1:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The talking machines could intercept intelligence from the Asciians'\ntransmissions and preserve it for their master's review. Jonas, for\nexample, is a machine that knows about the great beasts without being\ncurrently at the south pole or under the sea. He probably lost his\nantennas for far communication, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's possible. It's just a lot to expect the reader to guess. And\nTyphon, by his own account, is not one to speak indirectly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But neither is he given to elaborate for the benefit of others.\n\nIt's not so much to guess; Mt Typhon itself is such an outpost and \nTyphon is master of its numerous machines by word. Since he allows \nSeverian to transcend distance and \"see\" distant parts of the Urth as \nif present above them, it's not such a stretch to think that he can do \nthat for himself and more besides when he's not busy putting on a show \nto secure his hold on the unsuspecting Conciliator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, but how does it explain talking to the monsters in the abyss, who \nwere not there before he slept, as he stated he did? Why make this \ncomplicated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 4:56 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the \nyounger.\n\nIf Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them if\nhe transferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his \nreluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The nature of his mental powers might include the ability to impress \nhis brain's pattern upon another. He does this a bit, when Sev feels \nhis mind gripped by a vise when Typhon tries to make him submit to an \noath." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely. Typhon can't read Sev's thoughts but he can do other things." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T11:55:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E942DA7.9030004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the Megatherians were on Urth during Typhons reign. They had\nto be there previous to the Whorls launch because Scylla knew of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/10/2011 11:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 12:59 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/10/2011 1:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The talking machines could intercept intelligence from the Asciians'\ntransmissions and preserve it for their master's review. Jonas, for\nexample, is a machine that knows about the great beasts without being\ncurrently at the south pole or under the sea. He probably lost his\nantennas for far communication, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's possible. It's just a lot to expect the reader to guess. And\nTyphon, by his own account, is not one to speak indirectly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But neither is he given to elaborate for the benefit of others.\n\nIt's not so much to guess; Mt Typhon itself is such an outpost and\nTyphon is master of its numerous machines by word. Since he allows\nSeverian to transcend distance and \"see\" distant parts of the Urth as\nif present above them, it's not such a stretch to think that he can do\nthat for himself and more besides when he's not busy putting on a show\nto secure his hold on the unsuspecting Conciliator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, but how does it explain talking to the monsters in the abyss, who\nwere not there before he slept, as he stated he did? Why make this\ncomplicated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 4:56 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Unless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the\nyounger.\n\nIf Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them if\nhe transferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his\nreluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The nature of his mental powers might include the ability to impress\nhis brain's pattern upon another. He does this a bit, when Sev feels\nhis mind gripped by a vise when Typhon tries to make him submit to an\noath." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Definitely. Typhon can't read Sev's thoughts but he can do other things.\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 111010-2, 10/10/2011\nTested on: 10/11/2011 7:51:04 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E943442.4090107@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T12:19:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E942DA7.9030004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 6:51 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/10/2011 11:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 12:59 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/10/2011 1:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The talking machines could intercept intelligence from the Asciians'\ntransmissions and preserve it for their master's review. Jonas, for\nexample, is a machine that knows about the great beasts without being\ncurrently at the south pole or under the sea. He probably lost his\nantennas for far communication, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's possible. It's just a lot to expect the reader to guess. And\nTyphon, by his own account, is not one to speak indirectly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But neither is he given to elaborate for the benefit of others.\n\nIt's not so much to guess; Mt Typhon itself is such an outpost and\nTyphon is master of its numerous machines by word. Since he allows\nSeverian to transcend distance and \"see\" distant parts of the Urth as\nif present above them, it's not such a stretch to think that he can do\nthat for himself and more besides when he's not busy putting on a show\nto secure his hold on the unsuspecting Conciliator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, but how does it explain talking to the monsters in the abyss, who\nwere not there before he slept, as he stated he did? Why make this\ncomplicated?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how it is especially complicated by the overall standards \nof the BotNS, which incorporates several times its wordcount of tropes \nby reference and allusion.\n\n\nAs for talking to the monsters in the abyss, who is doing that and \nwhen/what chapter?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E944D2D.6040807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T14:05:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318310722.89842.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 1:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nDo we know Mucor's talent is genetic? Maybe it's the result of an \nimplant or brain surgery or magic performed on her embryo. Or are \nyou using \"genetic\" as a shorthand for some broader idea? It seems to \nme Typhon's psionic talents are quite possible for humans in Briah, \nconsidering Mucor and Decuman. We have no idea what enhancement and \nspecial training Typhon might have. Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The councilors' discussion of Mucor and the missing embryo that was Silk \nmakes it very clear that they are much the same. Surgery can't explain a \n\"magic\" embryo. But the very fact that it's an embryo is a clear signal \nthat the origin of its magic is fundamentally genetic." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94510F.4080503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T14:22:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E93F079.8050903@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " And Typhon, by his own account, is not one to speak\nindirectly. For myself, I tend to want to interpret him as neither \ngod nor demigod but as an example of pure hubris." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm inclined to agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon's got loads of hubris, but he's not all false pride; like \nAlexander, he did accomplish things no other man approached." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely---I don;t mean to imply falseness or failure with the Tower \nanalogy. (I'm sure the Tower would have succeeded if it hadn't been \nmessed with, and in fact the way it was messed with suggests that it \nwould have succeeded, or else why sabotage it?)\n\nInterestingly, Alexander was not constructed---he was clearly a \"sport\" \nif not exactly a mutation as the Mule explicitly was. In fact, these are \ntwo competing and valid models, but both require that Typhon be human, \nwhich was my basic point.\n\nA third model (which I reject) might be Hercules (with whom Alexander \nwas associated by his propagandists, but falsely of course), who was \nonly half-human. His powers were therefore semi-divine, from Up There. \nThe fourth (which I also reject) is that Typhon is some kind of Wolfean \nangelic being or god---but he's no Hiero. There's no room for more gods \nin Briah!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E945761.3090302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T14:49:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<56106D2EDD3F481BA01D9C803FAE9097@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 7:40 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Jerry Friedman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No matter how or whether Typhon sent his thoughts to far places, we know\nhe's telepathic. He makes Severian see through his eyes, and he casts a\nspell to try to get Severian to swear loyalty to him. Severian compares\nthis spell to Decuman's, greatly in Typhon's favor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t read too much into this. Typhon is a powerful and charismatic \nindividual; I wouldn’t be surprised if in the _BotNS_ universe such \nindividuals typically have some sort of telepathic power. Like Jeff, I \ndon’t think it’s important whether he uses telepathy or some kind of \ntechno-magic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm quite baffled by this. Genetic engineering is techno-magic. Its \nexistence raises questions about cloning and how it works. Mind transfer \nis techno-magic, whether mechanical or organic. There is no evidence \nthat Typhon had digital-mental techno-magic or that Abaia uses it too.\n\nThis is an SF novel. How can it not matter which kind of techno-magic is \ninvolved? Why go with the one that has the least evidence for it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do we know Mucor's talent is genetic? Maybe it's the result of an \nimplant or\nbrain surgery or magic performed on her embryo. Or are you using \n\"genetic\"\nas a shorthand for some broader idea?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course Dr. Crane cannot know the details, but I think we should \nheed his observation that Mucor’s parents (her genetic parents, that \nis) met in a petri dish. [I imagine the same applies to Silk.] \nPresumably the embryos were then genetically or otherwise engineered. \nWe know Mucor’s brain developed in an abnormal fashion, and after \nbrain surgery her powers were suppressed for a time but eventually \ncame back. So I imagine the telepathic powers must inhere in brain \ntissue, and probably exist to some extent in everyone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In some sense, yes. We certainly can't disprove that, and the \"origin\" \nof telepathy is plainly backgrounded---we don;t need gods or such to \nexplain it. It's just there, and we only need an explanation of how \ndifferent characters got super-versions of it. Your explanation is the \nsimplest one (see above)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems to me Typhon's psionic talents are quite possible for \nhumans in Briah, considering Mucor and\nDecuman. We have no idea what enhancement and special training \nTyphon might have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I never saw him as primarily a telepath, but indeed perhaps telepathy \nwas a greater part of his powers than I had thought. But I think his \nchief powers were charisma, leadership, and military strategy. [That’s \nwhy I think a lot of Pas is coming out in SilkHorn as he wanders Blue \non his way back to his (Silk’s) island.]\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is certainly a debatable point. But I return to the narrator's \npurpose: why drop such strong and \"classical\" hints that Typhon can send \nhis mind forth to commune with aliens under the sea, and that he can \nseize other's minds, in a universe where \ntelepathic/projection/possession powers are demonstrated to exist, \nwithout accounting for the fact that the alert reader will proceed to \ninterpret this as \"super-telepathic powers\"? This needs explanation, but \nthere is none.\n\nPossibly Typhon is meant to be an emblem of \"loyalty to the \nmonarch\"---in other words, a reference to the degrees of loyalty one \nstep below \"loyalty to the throne.\" But this does not contradict \nTyphon's powers, it just gives deeper significance to his claims that \nhis face is what will get him back his empire." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E945AE0.1010006@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T15:04:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E943442.4090107@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 8:19 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 6:51 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 11:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's not so much to guess; Mt Typhon itself is such an outpost and\nTyphon is master of its numerous machines by word. Since he allows\nSeverian to transcend distance and \"see\" distant parts of the Urth as\nif present above them, it's not such a stretch to think that he can do\nthat for himself and more besides when he's not busy putting on a show\nto secure his hold on the unsuspecting Conciliator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, but how does it explain talking to the monsters in the abyss, who\nwere not there before he slept, as he stated he did? Why make this\ncomplicated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure how it is especially complicated by the overall standards \nof the BotNS, which incorporates several times its wordcount of tropes \nby reference and allusion.\n\n\nAs for talking to the monsters in the abyss, who is doing that and \nwhen/what chapter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon: \"Yes. But I have lived almost a day and have sent my thought \ninto far places. There are powers in the seas now who would rule. They \nwill become our slaves, and the hordes of the north are theirs.\"\n\n\n(1) Typhon has learned this information since he awoke (2) by sending \nhis thought into far places. There is no evidence for anything else." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6D76F38547454CAFA10527CAD118C364@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T15:10:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E945761.3090302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is certainly a debatable point. But I return to the narrator's \npurpose: why drop such strong and \"classical\" hints that Typhon can send \nhis mind forth to commune with aliens under the sea, and that he can \nseize other's minds, in a universe where \ntelepathic/projection/possession powers are demonstrated to exist, \nwithout accounting for the fact that the alert reader will proceed to \ninterpret this as \"super-telepathic powers\"? This needs explanation, but \nthere is none." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I consider myself a reasonably alert reader, and I drew no such conclusion. Indeed, I assumed that Typhon’s awareness of the undersea monsters (did he say that he actually communicated with them, or did he just describe them, in which case he might just have accessed an archive of old news reports?) was technologically mediated.\n\nAs for magic and the comparison between Typhon and Decuman, I had meant to mention the coin given to Severian by Vodalus at the start of the story. Recall Severian’s observation that the power to instill loyalty must be present in the coin, because — as he points out very scientifically — things act of themselves or not at all.\n\nMy conclusion is that there is room for interpreting these events in ways other than Severian would interpret them...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9460EA.2040909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T15:29:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<6D76F38547454CAFA10527CAD118C364@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 11:10 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is certainly a debatable point. But I return to the narrator's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "purpose: why drop such strong and \"classical\" hints that Typhon can send" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "his mind forth to commune with aliens under the sea, and that he can" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "seize other's minds, in a universe where" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "telepathic/projection/possession powers are demonstrated to exist," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "without accounting for the fact that the alert reader will proceed to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "interpret this as \"super-telepathic powers\"? This needs explanation, but" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there is none.\nI consider myself a reasonably alert reader," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Impossible! You are well known to be both alert and UNreasonable. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and I drew no such conclusion. Indeed, I assumed that Typhon’s \nawareness of the undersea monsters (did he say that he actually \ncommunicated with them, or did he just describe them, in which case he \nmight just have accessed an archive of old news reports?) was \ntechnologically mediated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See my quote of it in my last post. It's pretty straightforward. I agree \nthat it was indeed technologically mediated but not in the sense you mean.\n\nYes, it's possible that Typhon mentally called up his old AOL account at \nthe servers on Lune (a \"far place\") and got a quick update, but there is \nsimply no support for this except that WE have some of this technology \nand can easily imagine the rest. Its familiarity to us is no \nargument---it exists but is it Typhon's method? Why should it be?\n\nWe know he has machines on the mountain and in Nessus but neither of \nthese is a \"far place,\" let alone more than one far place. We know of no \nother places where he may have machines; he probably does, but how would \nthese machines know any of the information he states? This is what I \nmean by \"complicated.\"\n\nI agree that there is no hard reason as far as that chapter to prefer \ninnate/genetic telepathy over (let's call it) electromechanically \nenhanced telepathy. However, I give you Mucor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for magic and the comparison between Typhon and Decuman, I had \nmeant to mention the coin given to Severian by Vodalus at the start of \nthe story. Recall Severian’s observation that the power to instill \nloyalty must be present in the coin, because — as he points out very \nscientifically — things act of themselves or not at all.\nMy conclusion is that there is room for interpreting these events in \nways other than Severian would interpret them...\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is an ever-present danger." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T15:49:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E943442.4090107@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "During Severians encounter with Typhon he tells Severian \"though Ive\nlived again but a day Ive sent my thoughts to far places. There are\nthose in the sea that would rule us\". Typhon I think more or less\nsenses the presence of the megatherians instead of actually\ncommunicating with them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 6:51 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 11:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/10/2011 12:59 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 10/10/2011 1:29 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The talking machines could intercept intelligence from the Asciians'\ntransmissions and preserve it for their master's review. Jonas, for\nexample, is a machine that knows about the great beasts without being\ncurrently at the south pole or under the sea. He probably lost his\nantennas for far communication, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's possible. It's just a lot to expect the reader to guess. And\nTyphon, by his own account, is not one to speak indirectly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But neither is he given to elaborate for the benefit of others.\n\nIt's not so much to guess; Mt Typhon itself is such an outpost and\nTyphon is master of its numerous machines by word. Since he allows\nSeverian to transcend distance and \"see\" distant parts of the Urth as\nif present above them, it's not such a stretch to think that he can do\nthat for himself and more besides when he's not busy putting on a show\nto secure his hold on the unsuspecting Conciliator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, but how does it explain talking to the monsters in the abyss, who\nwere not there before he slept, as he stated he did? Why make this\ncomplicated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure how it is especially complicated by the overall standards\nof the BotNS, which incorporates several times its wordcount of tropes\nby reference and allusion.\n\n\nAs for talking to the monsters in the abyss, who is doing that and\nwhen/what chapter?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E946946.5040900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T16:05:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's probably more accurate, and it's in line with his telepathic \npowers vs Severian. He can \"seize\" Sev's mind but can't read his \nthoughts. He probably senses the megatherians as much as he listens to \nthem, but clearly he gathers much information that way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 11:49 AM, larry miller wrote:\nDuring Severians encounter with Typhon he tells Severian \"though Ive\nlived again but a day Ive sent my thoughts to far places. There are\nthose in the sea that would rule us\". Typhon I think more or less\nsenses the presence of the megatherians instead of actually\ncommunicating with them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9484CE.2020401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T18:02:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this implies that that he has systems that have kept track of \naffairs while he's been dead. He's received the update and now \ncomprehends the current political state of the Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 10:49 AM, larry miller wrote:\nDuring Severians encounter with Typhon he tells Severian \"though Ive\nlived again but a day Ive sent my thoughts to far places. There are\nthose in the sea that would rule us\". Typhon I think more or less\nsenses the presence of the megatherians instead of actually\ncommunicating with them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94886D.7020406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T18:18:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9484CE.2020401@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Several people think this, to my astonishment. But there are \ncomplications, which I have pointed out.\n\nNot the least of which being that no character mentions machines capable \nof political observations and updates, especially subaquatic ones, and \neven if they existed they would require human input since politics are \nhuman systems. You can't do that with satellites. And why not, then, \neven years-out-of-date interplanetary updates? Typhon mentions none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 2:02 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI think this implies that that he has systems that have kept track of \naffairs while he's been dead. He's received the update and now \ncomprehends the current political state of the Urth.\n\nOn 10/11/2011 10:49 AM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "During Severians encounter with Typhon he tells Severian \"though Ive\nlived again but a day Ive sent my thoughts to far places. There are\nthose in the sea that would rule us\". Typhon I think more or less\nsenses the presence of the megatherians instead of actually\ncommunicating with them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<78fd2f4a345468a9029e74b0a2a747e4.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T18:59:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E945AE0.1010006@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 10:04, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 8:19 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 6:51 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "OK, but how does it explain talking to the monsters in the abyss, who\nwere not there before he slept, as he stated he did? Why make this\ncomplicated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for talking to the monsters in the abyss, who is doing that and\nwhen/what chapter?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon: \"Yes. But I have lived almost a day and have sent my thought\ninto far places. There are powers in the seas now who would rule. They\nwill become our slaves, and the hordes of the north are theirs.\"\n\n(1) Typhon has learned this information since he awoke (2) by sending\nhis thought into far places. There is no evidence for anything else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see no mention of talking, talking to monsters, or of an abyss." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9493C5.9040803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T19:06:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E93AE29.1020008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (11-10-2011 03:47):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 7:00 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-10-2011 22:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Unless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the younger." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When the older dies, the older dies, regardless of having been copied into\nthe younger. The entity may go on existing for third parties, including\nthe younger clone, but not for itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't follow. The younger clone would start off his memories at the point\nwhere the older was scanned and thus continue on as the same entity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The younger clone would be the same entity for everyone, including itself, \nexcept for the older clone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At\nleast that's how it works in Home Fires. (The problem would be meeting\nyourself, which would be resolved in a clone situation by assuming scanning\n= death.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which I don't think is an option for Typhon. He doesn't get special kicks \nout of having his conscience duplicated if the original doesn't carry on. \nAfaict he created Pas as a lieutenant, not as a replacement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose them if he\ntransferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his reluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's a pretty good idea.\nI find that face stuff strange, unless there is some deeper meaning of\nfaces to be reckoned with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Typhon says something about loyalty or command, and that makes sense.\nBut it's not just the face that conveys presence---especially if you are\ntelepathic. So who knows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What bothers me is that I think there is something hidden there but I \nhaven't got a clue what, so I'm left with the sensation that maybe there is \nnothing - and in that case my impression that there is becomes an \nuncomfortable reminder that I have no clue about the whole books." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E949560.1000607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T19:13:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E932B84.8000201@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (10-10-2011 18:29):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/10/2011 7:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "His thoughts being sent into far places could easily have been\nhim spying through the remaining technological outposts similar to the\nspeaking machines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception hall.\nHe may have had telepresences there to keep his ruling face au courant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Except that this would require \"outposts\" at the south pole and under\nthe sea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don;t know about require; sensors can have ranges and their data may be\nused to infer details beyond those. An ancient but still functional satllite\nin orbit above the south pole and the sea could be accessible to Typhon\n\"Hmm, weather patterns continue to deteriorate... Great Me," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awesome. +10." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "what is that THING on the infrared?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+2" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E949778.4080409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T19:22:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<78fd2f4a345468a9029e74b0a2a747e4.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Larry was right to point out that Typhon probably senses the \"powers\" \nmore than he \"speaks\" with them. But they are plainly Erebus and Abaia, \nor I have never read a word by Wolfe and live under the South Pole in a \nrusty tin can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 2:59 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Tue, October 11, 2011 10:04, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 8:19 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/11/2011 6:51 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "OK, but how does it explain talking to the monsters in the abyss, who\nwere not there before he slept, as he stated he did? Why make this\ncomplicated?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As for talking to the monsters in the abyss, who is doing that and\nwhen/what chapter?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon: \"Yes. But I have lived almost a day and have sent my thought\ninto far places. There are powers in the seas now who would rule. They\nwill become our slaves, and the hordes of the north are theirs.\"\n\n(1) Typhon has learned this information since he awoke (2) by sending\nhis thought into far places. There is no evidence for anything else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see no mention of talking, talking to monsters, or of an abyss." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9498B2.4020503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T19:27:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9493C5.9040803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 3:06 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (11-10-2011 03:47):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 7:00 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-10-2011 22:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Unless there is scanning of the older clone and uploading into the \nyounger." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "When the older dies, the older dies, regardless of having been \ncopied into\nthe younger. The entity may go on existing for third parties, including\nthe younger clone, but not for itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't follow. The younger clone would start off his memories at the \npoint\nwhere the older was scanned and thus continue on as the same entity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The younger clone would be the same entity for everyone, including \nitself, except for the older clone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I think that's what I meant by the below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At least that's how it works in Home Fires. (The problem would be \nmeeting\nyourself, which would be resolved in a clone situation by assuming \nscanning\n= death.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which I don't think is an option for Typhon. He doesn't get special \nkicks out of having his conscience duplicated if the original doesn't \ncarry on. Afaict he created Pas as a lieutenant, not as a replacement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. Just another thing to be worked out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E949A74.50201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T19:35:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E93F079.8050903@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (11-10-2011 08:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 12:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Hmm, weather patterns continue to deteriorate... Great Me, what is that\nTHING on the infrared?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ":-)\n\nWith no evidence, I imagine the sea monsters cold-blooded, so they\nwouldn't show up on the IR." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.flickr.com/photos/yoshihirata/\n\nhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071015215148.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FTA:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And their babies reveal many details because they are see-through." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+10" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately, some of the researchers had to stay awake along with the\nfish. \"Originally, we didn't have the automated sleep-deprivation system,\nso I manually sleep-deprived them, becoming sleep-deprived myself,\"\nYokogawa added." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Unfortunate' is an odd spelling for 'fair'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8b8eb2992ceb3929cc73f0811a11ec2b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T21:21:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E949778.4080409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 14:22, David Stockhoff wrote:\nLarry was right to point out that Typhon probably senses the \"powers\"\nmore than he \"speaks\" with them. But they are plainly Erebus and Abaia,\nor I have never read a word by Wolfe and live under the South Pole in a\nrusty tin can." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon's ship commanders slipping away before he knows it argues against\nhis long-range ESP. He mentions the Asciians in the same breath as the\nbeasts and knows they are beholden to them as the old autarch and Vodalus\nlater confirm. This is entirely consistent with him retrieving Asciian\nsignal intelligence from automated listening posts; Vodalus confirms they\nuse long-distance comms.\n\nTyphon's sending of his thoughts into distant places remains a somewhat\ncurious idiom if it is not literal, but it is not entirely without\nprecedent in literature and bombast and other figurative expression." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94BA5A.1010607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T21:51:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<8b8eb2992ceb3929cc73f0811a11ec2b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 5:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Tue, October 11, 2011 14:22, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Larry was right to point out that Typhon probably senses the \"powers\"\nmore than he \"speaks\" with them. But they are plainly Erebus and Abaia,\nor I have never read a word by Wolfe and live under the South Pole in a\nrusty tin can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon's ship commanders slipping away before he knows it argues against\nhis long-range ESP." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, it argues against good signal intelligence as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He mentions the Asciians in the same breath as the\nbeasts and knows they are beholden to them as the old autarch and Vodalus\nlater confirm. This is entirely consistent with him retrieving Asciian\nsignal intelligence from automated listening posts; Vodalus confirms they\nuse long-distance comms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems to assume Erebus and Abaia use ordinary radio. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon's sending of his thoughts into distant places remains a somewhat\ncurious idiom if it is not literal, but it is not entirely without\nprecedent in literature and bombast and other figurative expression." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Its ambiguity-while-seeming-perfectly-clear would not be without \nprecedent in Wolfe either." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8eb575c5369b94e1d0eb11b0c97c7854.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T22:41:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E94BA5A.1010607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 16:51, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 5:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 14:22, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Larry was right to point out that Typhon probably senses the \"powers\"\nmore than he \"speaks\" with them. But they are plainly Erebus and Abaia,\nor I have never read a word by Wolfe and live under the South Pole in a\nrusty tin can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon's ship commanders slipping away before he knows it argues against\nhis long-range ESP." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, it argues against good signal intelligence as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Skill at subterfuge and confounding men and machines is fairly common in\nthe books but there's no hint of a cloak against mind powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He mentions the Asciians in the same breath as the\nbeasts and knows they are beholden to them as the old autarch and\nVodalus\nlater confirm. This is entirely consistent with him retrieving Asciian\nsignal intelligence from automated listening posts; Vodalus confirms\nthey\nuse long-distance comms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seems to assume Erebus and Abaia use ordinary radio. Right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know how ordinary it might be, but yes, it assumes that the\nAscians use radio along with robots and electric lights." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon's sending of his thoughts into distant places remains a somewhat\ncurious idiom if it is not literal, but it is not entirely without\nprecedent in literature and bombast and other figurative expression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Its ambiguity-while-seeming-perfectly-clear would not be without\nprecedent in Wolfe either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I've sent my Athenians into distant places.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318373150.30141.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T22:45:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E949A74.50201@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nJeff Wilson wrote (11-10-2011 08:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 12:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"Hmm, weather patterns continue to deteriorate... Great Me, \nwhat is that\nTHING on the infrared?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": ":-)\n\nWith no evidence, I imagine the sea monsters cold-blooded, so they\nwouldn't show up on the IR." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://www.flickr.com/photos/yoshihirata/\n\nhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071015215148.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fish is illuminated by an infrared source\n\nhttp://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0050277\n\nand I'll bet the beautiful creatures on Flickr are too. In some of the pictures it seems the source?(the sun) is visible. So maybe if Erebus swam or oozed over a volcanic vent...\n\nOf course this has nothing to do with Wolfe, and I don't mind if it turns out I'm wrong.\n\nBy the way, many thanks to Yokogawa et al. for publishing in an open-access journal!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FTA:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And their babies reveal many details because they are see-through." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "+10" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unfortunately, some of the researchers had to stay awake along with the\nfish. \"Originally, we didn't have the automated sleep-deprivation \nsystem,\nso I manually sleep-deprived them, becoming sleep-deprived myself,\"\nYokogawa added." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Unfortunate' is an odd spelling for 'fair'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. Maybe I can observe that in Wolfe stories, we're seldom invited to care about animals that can't talk. For instance, what would \"Our Neighbor, by David Copperfield\" be like if anyone suggested we feel sorry for the birds? Say if a starling said, \"I can't get out\"?\n\nNo doubt there are lots of exceptions, though.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94C96D.4050102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T22:55:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<8eb575c5369b94e1d0eb11b0c97c7854.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 6:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Tue, October 11, 2011 16:51, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 5:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 14:22, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Larry was right to point out that Typhon probably senses the \"powers\"\nmore than he \"speaks\" with them. But they are plainly Erebus and Abaia,\nor I have never read a word by Wolfe and live under the South Pole in a\nrusty tin can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Typhon's ship commanders slipping away before he knows it argues against\nhis long-range ESP." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, it argues against good signal intelligence as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Skill at subterfuge and confounding men and machines is fairly common in\nthe books but there's no hint of a cloak against mind powers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon is not a mind reader. No one suggested that he was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He mentions the Asciians in the same breath as the\nbeasts and knows they are beholden to them as the old autarch and\nVodalus\nlater confirm. This is entirely consistent with him retrieving Asciian\nsignal intelligence from automated listening posts; Vodalus confirms\nthey\nuse long-distance comms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This seems to assume Erebus and Abaia use ordinary radio. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know how ordinary it might be, but yes, it assumes that the\nAscians use radio along with robots and electric lights." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you mean that the Ascians have revealed their fealty to Abaia in \ntheir radio communications. That makes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Typhon's sending of his thoughts into distant places remains a somewhat\ncurious idiom if it is not literal, but it is not entirely without\nprecedent in literature and bombast and other figurative expression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Its ambiguity-while-seeming-perfectly-clear would not be without\nprecedent in Wolfe either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I've sent my Athenians into distant places.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Meaning? BTW, he sent his thought into distant places. Not his thoughts." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94CE21.4020908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-11T23:15:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318373150.30141.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (11-10-2011 23:45):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course this has nothing to do with Wolfe, and I don't mind if it turns\nout I'm wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Cold-blooded' does not mean the creature is at the same temperature as its\nenvironment. It means it has no organic* way to regulate the temperature. Of\ncourse, that means it can't stray very far from the environment's\ntemperature, but a little bit is doable.\n\n(*) 'Fever' in mammals means the animal's body produces large amounts of \nheat. In lizards it means the animal moves into the sun so as to increase \nthe temperature. Imagine that, behavioural fever." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94CE7F.3020309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-11T23:17:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<8eb575c5369b94e1d0eb11b0c97c7854.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 6:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Tue, October 11, 2011 16:51, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 5:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 14:22, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Larry was right to point out that Typhon probably senses the \"powers\"\nmore than he \"speaks\" with them. But they are plainly Erebus and Abaia,\nor I have never read a word by Wolfe and live under the South Pole in a\nrusty tin can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Typhon's ship commanders slipping away before he knows it argues against\nhis long-range ESP." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, it argues against good signal intelligence as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Skill at subterfuge and confounding men and machines is fairly common in\nthe books but there's no hint of a cloak against mind powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He mentions the Asciians in the same breath as the\nbeasts and knows they are beholden to them as the old autarch and\nVodalus\nlater confirm. This is entirely consistent with him retrieving Asciian\nsignal intelligence from automated listening posts; Vodalus confirms\nthey\nuse long-distance comms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This seems to assume Erebus and Abaia use ordinary radio. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know how ordinary it might be, but yes, it assumes that the\nAscians use radio along with robots and electric lights." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Typhon's sending of his thoughts into distant places remains a somewhat\ncurious idiom if it is not literal, but it is not entirely without\nprecedent in literature and bombast and other figurative expression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Its ambiguity-while-seeming-perfectly-clear would not be without\nprecedent in Wolfe either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I've sent my Athenians into distant places.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anyone have any opinion on whether or how Abaia and Erebus rule \nwithout resorting to ESP powers?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94E179.5000401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T00:38:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9493C5.9040803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 3:06 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (11-10-2011 03:47):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/10/2011 7:00 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-10-2011 22:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose \nthem if he\ntransferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his \nreluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's a pretty good idea.\nI find that face stuff strange, unless there is some deeper meaning of\nfaces to be reckoned with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. Typhon says something about loyalty or command, and that makes \nsense.\nBut it's not just the face that conveys presence---especially if you are\ntelepathic. So who knows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What bothers me is that I think there is something hidden there but I \nhaven't got a clue what, so I'm left with the sensation that maybe \nthere is nothing - and in that case my impression that there is \nbecomes an uncomfortable reminder that I have no clue about the whole \nbooks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it possible that Sev's observation that Typhon grips his mind like a \nvise is simply invalid? And Jeff is right, and Typhon's machines simply \nmonitored Ascian radio traffic for millennia, and they analyzed the data \nfor him?\n\n30 years ago I read TBotNS and read the line \"sent my thought\" \nliterally. I was suspicious, naturally, since I knew Wolfe, and \nsuspended judgment until I read the above about Typhon gripping Sev's \nmind. To me, this confirmed that Typhon had limited but super mental \npowers. Mucor's existence confirmed it further. Yet there was always a \nnagging thought that something was missing. There seemed no point to \nTyphon's possessing these abilities. But beyond these two potentially \nmisleading statements, there is no evidence for them---only evidence \nthat they exist in Briah. Is Typhon's power merely that he can convince \npeople he has powers?\n\nBeyond that, the face stuff points to Silk. But as James points out, \nit's maddening!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T01:50:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E94E179.5000401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Is it possible that Sev's observation that Typhon grips his mind " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "like a vise is simply invalid?...Is Typhon's power merely that he can convince \npeople he has powers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI don't think so. Again, I will invoke Typhon's namesake, the Mandragora. For me\n\nthe connection between these characters is nearly undeniable and I find the \n\nprospect of Severian being delusional about both their mental powers to be a very\n\nbleak one in regard to the enjoyment of the story.\n\n \n\nMoreover I get the sense that Wolfe's message in this and other works is more that\n\nthere is a real component to that we consider magic or mystical or spiritual\n\nrather than the opposite, that being that all mystical and spiritual items are merely \n\ntricks to fool the weak-minded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Does anyone have any opinion on whether or how Abaia and Erebus rule \nwithout resorting to ESP powers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI have a nagging feeling the text does make some mention of Abaia controlling humanity\n\npurely through the power of his thought, but I can't pin the passage down.\n\n \n\nAnyway, we are explicitly shown another way these guys (and their angelic analog, \n\nTzadkiel) control and influence humanity, which is through the use of agents. Some\n\nare human, like Ascians, Purn and Severian. Some are more than human, though less than \n\nthe great powers- beings like Barbatus and Famulimus and Apheta and (I think) Inire and \n\nthe Cumaean. Some agents are human sized and shaped but are produced by being \n\npinched off from the gigantic bodies of the greater being- characters like Juturna and\n\nIdas, Tinkerbell and (I think) Seawrack.\n\n \n\nI don't think we are meant to know the origin of Typhon but his name and Severian's \n\ndescription of his powers have always suggested to me that he is more than just a \n\nregular human who is simply a good talker. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94F605.9080301@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T02:05:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318373150.30141.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 5:45 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nJeff Wilson wrote (11-10-2011 08:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/11/2011 12:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "\"Hmm, weather patterns continue to deteriorate... Great Me,\nwhat is that\nTHING on the infrared?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": ":-)\n\nWith no evidence, I imagine the sea monsters cold-blooded, so they\nwouldn't show up on the IR." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "http://www.flickr.com/photos/yoshihirata/\n\nhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071015215148.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fish is illuminated by an infrared source" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like the sun illuminates this river delta? Imagine if you saw a moving, \ncompact shape on this scale.\n\nhttp://www.visualphotos.com/image/1x6053922/pearl_river_estuary_infrared_satellite_image" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0050277\n\nand I'll bet the beautiful creatures on Flickr are too. In some of the pictures it seems the source (the sun) is visible. So maybe if Erebus swam or oozed over a volcanic vent...\n\nOf course this has nothing to do with Wolfe, and I don't mind if it turns out I'm wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's still relevant in that the cooling sun will increasingly shift its \npeak output into the infrared frequencies, so Typhon would have reason \nto have set up IR monitoring." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318385259.48148.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T02:07:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 10/11/11, Tim O'Donnell wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Tim O'Donnell \nSubject: (urth) Typhon's Nature\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, October 11, 2011, 1:30 AM\n\n\n\nI think that Mucor is a clue to the nature of Typhon. Mucor has mental powers that arise genetically and she \nwas born from an embryo purchased by Blood. That embryo must derive from the time of Typhon. “We don't know\nwhether Mucor was created through selective breeding or genetic manipulation or both. I don't think it matters though,\nwe have evidence that mental powers are associated with embryos bred for the purposes. Is this what Typhon means \nwhen he says he was not born as such?” He may have been raised in vitro.\n\nWhich only raises more questions about Typhon's origins to me. Was he perhaps a slave himself, the product of a genetic \nbreeding program? I could go on but I know I am in the realm of sheer conjecture at this point.\n\n\nI think it more likely Typhon was more like an engineered ubermensch like the exultants, but even more special. And that his little frozen embryos might be his family rebooted for a recolonization of the future. son silk, Mucor as Scylla? Even Echidna? Very hard to say." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94F7CA.8040906@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T02:13:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E94C96D.4050102@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 5:55 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nOn 10/11/2011 6:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 16:51, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/11/2011 5:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 14:22, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Larry was right to point out that Typhon probably senses the \"powers\"\nmore than he \"speaks\" with them. But they are plainly Erebus and\nAbaia,\nor I have never read a word by Wolfe and live under the South Pole\nin a\nrusty tin can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Typhon's ship commanders slipping away before he knows it argues\nagainst\nhis long-range ESP." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course, it argues against good signal intelligence as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Skill at subterfuge and confounding men and machines is fairly common in\nthe books but there's no hint of a cloak against mind powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon is not a mind reader. No one suggested that he was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Typhon's sending of his thoughts into distant places remains a somewhat\ncurious idiom if it is not literal, but it is not entirely without\nprecedent in literature and bombast and other figurative expression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Its ambiguity-while-seeming-perfectly-clear would not be without\nprecedent in Wolfe either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I've sent my Athenians into distant places.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meaning? BTW, he sent his thought into distant places. Not his thoughts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't want to hog the whole gauntlet of quibbling challenges, I'll \ngive the rest of the class a chance to answer some." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "He mentions the Asciians in the same breath as the\nbeasts and knows they are beholden to them as the old autarch and\nVodalus\nlater confirm. This is entirely consistent with him retrieving Asciian\nsignal intelligence from automated listening posts; Vodalus confirms\nthey\nuse long-distance comms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This seems to assume Erebus and Abaia use ordinary radio. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know how ordinary it might be, but yes, it assumes that the\nAscians use radio along with robots and electric lights." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you mean that the Ascians have revealed their fealty to Abaia in\ntheir radio communications. That makes sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94FA69.3040604@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T02:24:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E94CE7F.3020309@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 6:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nDoes anyone have any opinion on whether or how Abaia and Erebus rule\nwithout resorting to ESP powers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their minions are the kind of \"people\" who seek to do their bidding, and \nthey handle ruling over the masses by fear. \"Yield, lest we flood your \nlands/barricade the harbor/blot the sun with smoke and ash/send \npestilences, etc.\" The beasts themselves are smart enough to learn how \nto communicate with their Urthly minions by voice-like noises, writing, \npictures, etc. if they didn't already know it when they got here.\n\nFor extra horror, Urthlings like the undines are bred and modified in \norder to better communicate with their uncanny and cyclopean soverigns." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E94FC3E.8050509@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T02:32:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E94E179.5000401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 7:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 3:06 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (11-10-2011 03:47):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/10/2011 7:00 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (10-10-2011 22:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If Typhon has superpowers that are genetic in origin, he'd lose\nthem if he\ntransferred to another brain, unless that brain also has that\ngenetically-derived infrastructure. Might this explain his\nreluctance to\nlose his \"face\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's a pretty good idea.\nI find that face stuff strange, unless there is some deeper meaning of\nfaces to be reckoned with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. Typhon says something about loyalty or command, and that makes\nsense.\nBut it's not just the face that conveys presence---especially if you are\ntelepathic. So who knows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What bothers me is that I think there is something hidden there but I\nhaven't got a clue what, so I'm left with the sensation that maybe\nthere is nothing - and in that case my impression that there is\nbecomes an uncomfortable reminder that I have no clue about the whole\nbooks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it possible that Sev's observation that Typhon grips his mind like a\nvise is simply invalid?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mis-remembered the simile, but I think the steel cable net is supposed \nto be read as a \"real\" mental sensation. But I believe we're also meant \nto realize Typhon other tricks up his notional sleeve." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E95005F.8070504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T02:50:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E94F7CA.8040906@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 10:13 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 5:55 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 6:41 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 16:51, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 10/11/2011 5:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On Tue, October 11, 2011 14:22, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Larry was right to point out that Typhon probably senses the \n\"powers\"\nmore than he \"speaks\" with them. But they are plainly Erebus and\nAbaia, or I have never read a word by Wolfe and live under the \nSouth Pole\nin a rusty tin can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Typhon's ship commanders slipping away before he knows it argues\nagainst his long-range ESP." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Of course, it argues against good signal intelligence as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Skill at subterfuge and confounding men and machines is fairly \ncommon in\nthe books but there's no hint of a cloak against mind powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon is not a mind reader. No one suggested that he was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is hardly quibbling. Typhon is explicitly not a mind reader in the \nclassic pulp sense. So those comments don't argue much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Typhon's sending of his thoughts into distant places remains a \nsomewhat\ncurious idiom if it is not literal, but it is not entirely without\nprecedent in literature and bombast and other figurative expression." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Its ambiguity-while-seeming-perfectly-clear would not be without\nprecedent in Wolfe either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"I've sent my Athenians into distant places.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Meaning? BTW, he sent his thought into distant places. Not his thoughts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't want to hog the whole gauntlet of quibbling challenges, I'll \ngive the rest of the class a chance to answer some." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, please just explain your remark. If you've sent your Athenians, \npresumably they went. What has this to do with \"sending thought\"? It is \nindeed a \"somewhat curious idiom if it is not literal, but it is not \nentirely without precedent,\" as I agreed above.\n\nI pointed out the use of the singular because to some, \"thought\" might \nimply more of a focused and intimate connection, while \"thoughts\" might \nbe interpreted more easily as thought commands to mindreading machines. \nIt may or may not bear directly on the discussion. See below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "He mentions the Asciians in the same breath as the\nbeasts and knows they are beholden to them as the old autarch and\nVodalus\nlater confirm. This is entirely consistent with him retrieving \nAsciian\nsignal intelligence from automated listening posts; Vodalus confirms\nthey\nuse long-distance comms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This seems to assume Erebus and Abaia use ordinary radio. Right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't know how ordinary it might be, but yes, it assumes that the\nAscians use radio along with robots and electric lights." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So you mean that the Ascians have revealed their fealty to Abaia in\ntheir radio communications. That makes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thank you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although difficult to imagine, especially given what we know of Ascian. \nI mean, \"Abaia says this\" and \"Erebus directs that\" don't reveal much.\n\nWhy is Typhon not surprised that there are powers in the sea, of all \nplaces? If he is purely an Alexander-style military conqueror, should he \nnot consider fighting and defeating seamonsters a tactical and strategic \nchallenge? Yet his arrogance dismisses them. Do his cataphracts function \nunder water?\n\nIf Typhon can send his thought into the sea and sense other great minds \nthere, he would confirm their presence and objectives and weaknesses \nhimself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E950133.6060907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T02:53:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E94FA69.3040604@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 10:24 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 6:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does anyone have any opinion on whether or how Abaia and Erebus rule\nwithout resorting to ESP powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Their minions are the kind of \"people\" who seek to do their bidding, \nand they handle ruling over the masses by fear. \"Yield, lest we flood \nyour lands/barricade the harbor/blot the sun with smoke and ash/send \npestilences, etc.\" The beasts themselves are smart enough to learn how \nto communicate with their Urthly minions by voice-like noises, \nwriting, pictures, etc. if they didn't already know it when they got \nhere.\n\nFor extra horror, Urthlings like the undines are bred and modified in \norder to better communicate with their uncanny and cyclopean soverigns." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I thought, this establishes two very different and possible \nirreconcilable schools of thought on the topic. Your beasts seem very \nweak and ineffectual to me, lacking mind powers. I don;t see them \nenslaving half the planet and threatening the Commonwealth." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T02:59:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I posted before the Mandragora was likely a proto chem Typhon built\nto download into. Theres a point in Long Sun where Silk having\ndiscovered that the Gods can possess chems and I remember Echidna\nmentioning a Prime Calcula in the Citadel. Im sure this was a\nreference to the mandragora. This would also keep with Wolfes naming\nconventions as Calculas is I believe the latin word for stone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Is it possible that Sev's observation that Typhon grips\nhis mind" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "like a vise is simply invalid?...Is Typhon's power merely that he can\nconvince\npeople he has powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. Again, I will invoke Typhon's namesake, the Mandragora.\nFor me\n\nthe connection between these characters is nearly undeniable and I find the\n\nprospect of Severian being delusional about both their mental powers to be a\nvery\n\nbleak one in regard to the enjoyment of the story.\n\n\n\nMoreover I get the sense that Wolfe's message in this and other works is\nmore that\n\nthere is a real component to that we consider magic or mystical or spiritual\n\nrather than the opposite, that being that all mystical and spiritual items\nare merely\n\ntricks to fool the weak-minded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Does anyone have any opinion on whether or how Abaia and\nErebus rule\nwithout resorting to ESP powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a nagging feeling the text does make some mention of Abaia\ncontrolling humanity\n\npurely through the power of his thought, but I can't pin the passage down.\n\n\n\nAnyway, we are explicitly shown another way these guys (and their angelic\nanalog,\n\nTzadkiel) control and influence humanity, which is through the use of\nagents. Some\n\nare human, like Ascians, Purn and Severian. Some are more than human, though\nless than\n\nthe great powers- beings like Barbatus and Famulimus and Apheta and (I\nthink) Inire and\n\nthe Cumaean. Some agents are human sized and shaped but are produced by\nbeing\n\npinched off from the gigantic bodies of the greater being- characters like\nJuturna and\n\nIdas, Tinkerbell and (I think) Seawrack.\n\n\n\nI don't think we are meant to know the origin of Typhon but his name and\nSeverian's\n\ndescription of his powers have always suggested to me that he is more than\njust a\n\nregular human who is simply a good talker. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E95034F.4000305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T03:02:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E94FC3E.8050509@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 10:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 7:38 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 3:06 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What bothers me is that I think there is something hidden there but I\nhaven't got a clue what, so I'm left with the sensation that maybe\nthere is nothing - and in that case my impression that there is\nbecomes an uncomfortable reminder that I have no clue about the whole\nbooks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is it possible that Sev's observation that Typhon grips his mind like a\nvise is simply invalid?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mis-remembered the simile, but I think the steel cable net is \nsupposed to be read as a \"real\" mental sensation. But I believe we're \nalso meant to realize Typhon other tricks up his notional sleeve." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's hard to say what the \"snare\" consists of. It could be words alone. \nWithout the first clue about sending thought, I would have taken this as \npurely figurative." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E95038F.2050102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T03:03:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting thought. You're right about the name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 10:59 PM, larry miller wrote:\nAs I posted before the Mandragora was likely a proto chem Typhon built\nto download into. Theres a point in Long Sun where Silk having\ndiscovered that the Gods can possess chems and I remember Echidna\nmentioning a Prime Calcula in the Citadel. Im sure this was a\nreference to the mandragora. This would also keep with Wolfes naming\nconventions as Calculas is I believe the latin word for stone." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318390211.60260.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T03:30:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Tue, 10/11/11, larry miller wrote:\nFrom: larry miller \nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon's nature\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, October 11, 2011, 7:59 PM\nAs I posted before the Mandragora was\nlikely a proto chem Typhon built\nto download into. Theres a point in Long Sun where\nSilk having\ndiscovered that the Gods can possess chems and I remember\nEchidna\nmentioning a Prime Calcula in the Citadel. Im sure\nthis was a\nreference to the mandragora. This would also keep\nwith Wolfes naming\nconventions as Calculas is I believe the latin word for\nstone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "huh always wondered about that quote. So the prime stone? Not referring to the strange seal under the whorl with all those numbers?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E950C8F.10309@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T03:42:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E950133.6060907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 9:53 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 10:24 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 6:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Does anyone have any opinion on whether or how Abaia and Erebus rule\nwithout resorting to ESP powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Their minions are the kind of \"people\" who seek to do their bidding,\nand they handle ruling over the masses by fear. \"Yield, lest we flood\nyour lands/barricade the harbor/blot the sun with smoke and ash/send\npestilences, etc.\" The beasts themselves are smart enough to learn how\nto communicate with their Urthly minions by voice-like noises,\nwriting, pictures, etc. if they didn't already know it when they got\nhere.\n\nFor extra horror, Urthlings like the undines are bred and modified in\norder to better communicate with their uncanny and cyclopean soverigns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I thought, this establishes two very different and possible\nirreconcilable schools of thought on the topic. Your beasts seem very\nweak and ineffectual to me, lacking mind powers. I don;t see them\nenslaving half the planet and threatening the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know they have minions, yes? Abaia has undines, Erebus has perischii. \n If they had sufficient mental wattage to enslave half the planet, why \ndo they bother with minions? Or is the mind power what they use to \ncontrol the minions who then enslave half the planet?\n\n\nChairman Mao did it without any mind powers at all using 100% pure \nminion power." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T10:56:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318390211.60260.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dug out my long sun books last night to reread and found the quote.\nEchidna has just possessed Maytera Marble and killed Blood. She says\nin response to Silks question \"The Prime Calcula........His\nCitadel.........\". Wolfe always capitalizes the citadel to seperate\nit from other strongholds so this Prime Calcula must be on Urth. At\nfirst I thought this refered to the thing Severian wakes in the mine\nof the man apes. But the mandragora seemjs to make more sense in the\ncontext of Silk and Echidnas conversation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On Tue, 10/11/11, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: larry miller \nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon's nature\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, October 11, 2011, 7:59 PM\nAs I posted before the Mandragora was\nlikely a proto chem Typhon built\nto download into. Theres a point in Long Sun where\nSilk having\ndiscovered that the Gods can possess chems and I remember\nEchidna\nmentioning a Prime Calcula in the Citadel. Im sure\nthis was a\nreference to the mandragora. This would also keep\nwith Wolfes naming\nconventions as Calculas is I believe the latin word for\nstone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "huh always wondered about that quote. So the prime stone? Not referring to\nthe strange seal under the whorl with all those numbers?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T11:07:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correction. Meant to say Musk not Blood in my last post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/11, larry miller wrote:\nDug out my long sun books last night to reread and found the quote.\nEchidna has just possessed Maytera Marble and killed Blood. She says\nin response to Silks question \"The Prime Calcula........His\nCitadel.........\". Wolfe always capitalizes the citadel to seperate\nit from other strongholds so this Prime Calcula must be on Urth. At\nfirst I thought this refered to the thing Severian wakes in the mine\nof the man apes. But the mandragora seemjs to make more sense in the\ncontext of Silk and Echidnas conversation.\n\nOn 10/11/11, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Tue, 10/11/11, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: larry miller \nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon's nature\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, October 11, 2011, 7:59 PM\nAs I posted before the Mandragora was\nlikely a proto chem Typhon built\nto download into. Theres a point in Long Sun where\nSilk having\ndiscovered that the Gods can possess chems and I remember\nEchidna\nmentioning a Prime Calcula in the Citadel. Im sure\nthis was a\nreference to the mandragora. This would also keep\nwith Wolfes naming\nconventions as Calculas is I believe the latin word for\nstone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "huh always wondered about that quote. So the prime stone? Not referring\nto\nthe strange seal under the whorl with all those numbers?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<92596A2A076B4CDCB9153A9CFBC0C8BC@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T13:03:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. Again, I will invoke Typhon's namesake, the Mandragora. For me\nthe connection between these characters is nearly undeniable and I find the \nprospect of Severian being delusional about both their mental powers to be a very\nbleak one in regard to the enjoyment of the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see any connection between a long-dead emperor and the pretty standard homunculus in a jar that Severian finds in the Autarch’s quarters, along with many other objects of a similar nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Does anyone have any opinion on whether or how Abaia and Erebus rule \nwithout resorting to ESP powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a nagging feeling the text does make some mention of Abaia controlling humanity\npurely through the power of his thought, but I can't pin the passage down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wasn’t there something about the Wall being built to defend against the human forces of the sea monsters? I have a vague impression of something of the kind too.\n\nBut if we look at the Ascians, the coin, Typhon etc., what I think we see is a deliberate blurring of the boundaries between powers of charisma, force of personality etc., and powers which we would consider telepathic. Mucor’s telepathic abilities, apparently the result of brain modification, suggest to me that in Wolfe’s world some elements of telepathy exist in everyone, but are stronger in some, and probably trainable (c.f. Decuman and the village of sorcerers). Typhon probably does have some telepathic powers which enhance his already great powers of charisma etc. It is a not uncommon trope in sf/fantasy.\n\nSeverian (and other narrators) are not delusional about the existence of such powers, but the powers are not of any special significance to the story. \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E959986.3010702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T13:43:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E950C8F.10309@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 11:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/11/2011 9:53 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/11/2011 10:24 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/11/2011 6:17 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Does anyone have any opinion on whether or how Abaia and Erebus rule\nwithout resorting to ESP powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Their minions are the kind of \"people\" who seek to do their bidding,\nand they handle ruling over the masses by fear. \"Yield, lest we flood\nyour lands/barricade the harbor/blot the sun with smoke and ash/send\npestilences, etc.\" The beasts themselves are smart enough to learn how\nto communicate with their Urthly minions by voice-like noises,\nwriting, pictures, etc. if they didn't already know it when they got\nhere.\n\nFor extra horror, Urthlings like the undines are bred and modified in\norder to better communicate with their uncanny and cyclopean soverigns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I thought, this establishes two very different and possible\nirreconcilable schools of thought on the topic. Your beasts seem very\nweak and ineffectual to me, lacking mind powers. I don;t see them\nenslaving half the planet and threatening the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know they have minions, yes? Abaia has undines, Erebus has \nperischii. If they had sufficient mental wattage to enslave half the \nplanet, why do they bother with minions? Or is the mind power what \nthey use to control the minions who then enslave half the planet?\n\n\nChairman Mao did it without any mind powers at all using 100% pure \nminion power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but Mao didn't live under the ocean and across the planet! Even he \nhad cadres of minions. Just as a telepathic Typhon would not abandon \nradio and other electromechanical technology (see the Mule), the Beasts \nwould not abandon basic tools of manipulation.\n\nIt seems to me your scheme of frightening humans into submission would \nonly work for coastal peoples. There seems to be no pattern of coastal \ntribes invading inland, but rather of periscii and ascii, as you say. \nThere must be something more, in addition to ideology and self-interest. \nCthulhu only ever used dreams, but then he was not awake." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T13:46:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: larry miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I posted before the Mandragora was likely a proto chem Typhon built\nto download into. Theres a point in Long Sun where Silk having\ndiscovered that the Gods can possess chems and I remember Echidna\nmentioning a Prime Calcula in the Citadel. Im sure this was a\nreference to the mandragora. This would also keep with Wolfes naming\nconventions as Calculas is I believe the latin word for stone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we talking about the same mandragora, i.e. the very ordinary homunculus briefly interrogated by Severian at the end of Citadel of the Autarch? \nIt’s just a random foetus pickled in spirits and magically kept in a semi-alive state. As it tells us itself: “I was deformed, and died before birth, and have been kept here since in white brandy.”\n\nNeither Typhon nor a mandrake are involved. And surely the “Prime Calcula” must refer to a central processing unit of Mainframe (I would not surprise me if some of the problems of the Whorl arise from Mainframe being damaged during the war of the gods, but that’s speculation.) I am pretty sure it is actually called the Prime Calculator. Echidna is losing control of Marble as she says the word:\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------------\n Her head swivelled toward the Sacred Window. “The prime calcula... His citadel.” [?] Her knees would no longer support her; she crumpled [?] seeming to shrink as she fell.\n--------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nSo the ellipses can be naturally interpreted as indicating an interrupted word/sentence. \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1A703F111F594F74B33DE6EBFC3CC8BB@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T14:01:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: larry miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dug out my long sun books last night to reread and found the quote.\nEchidna has just possessed Maytera Marble and killed Blood. She says\nin response to Silks question \"The Prime Calcula........His\nCitadel.........\". Wolfe always capitalizes the citadel to seperate\nit from other strongholds so this Prime Calcula must be on Urth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s not capitalised in my edition (Epiphany of the Long Sun, combining Calde and Exodus, First Orb edition, November 2000). Here it says: ?The prime calcula... His citadel. Only Pas gets a capital, and — as I noted in my previous post — that is likely because it is a new sentence (or sentence fragment), rather than any lingering respect for Pas on Echidna’s part.\nEven capitalised, I don’t see how it could make sense for it to be on Urth, presumably many light-years away at the least (there are certain inconsistencies in the physics relating to the journey, but I interpret them as either errors or things forced on Wolfe to accomodate his use of traditional SF tropes).\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E95A59D.8020707@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T14:35:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<92596A2A076B4CDCB9153A9CFBC0C8BC@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/2011 9:03 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think so. Again, I will invoke Typhon's namesake, the \nMandragora. For me\nthe connection between these characters is nearly undeniable and I \nfind the\nprospect of Severian being delusional about both their mental powers \nto be a very\nbleak one in regard to the enjoyment of the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t see any connection between a long-dead emperor and the pretty \nstandard homunculus in a jar that Severian finds in the Autarch’s \nquarters, along with many other objects of a similar nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff: Does anyone have any opinion on whether or how \nAbaia and Erebus rule\nwithout resorting to ESP powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have a nagging feeling the text does make some mention of Abaia \ncontrolling humanity\npurely through the power of his thought, but I can't pin the passage \ndown." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wasn’t there something about the Wall being built to defend against \nthe human forces of the sea monsters? I have a vague impression of \nsomething of the kind too.\nBut if we look at the Ascians, the coin, Typhon etc., what I think we \nsee is a deliberate blurring of the boundaries between powers of \ncharisma, force of personality etc., and powers which we would \nconsider telepathic. Mucor’s telepathic abilities, apparently the \nresult of brain modification, suggest to me that in Wolfe’s world some \nelements of telepathy exist in everyone, but are stronger in some, and \nprobably trainable (c.f. Decuman and the village of sorcerers). Typhon \nprobably does have some telepathic powers which enhance his already \ngreat powers of charisma etc. It is a not uncommon trope in sf/fantasy.\nSeverian (and other narrators) are not delusional about the existence \nof such powers, but the powers are not of any special significance to \nthe story.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Downplaying mental magic seems pointless if such magic serves the \nnarrative, which it obviously does. There's no question that telepathy \nis a classic pulp trope that simply must appear in TBotNS, and therefore \nit appears. Typhon's powers, great or little, came up in a discussion of \ncloning and Silk---THAT is their critical significance. (Note: Mucor’s \ntelepathic abilities are NOT the result of brain modification but of \ngenetic modification, since they are present in embryo and such embryos \nare very special.) But there is more.\n\nI agree that various technologies are deliberately blurred, as is \n(famously) the line between technology and magic. This seems to be both \na stylistic approach and a philosophy. For example, in Wolfe, there is \nlittle distinction between human and machine. Machines can read minds \nand project eidolons. Machines can do anything humans can do and vice \nversa, because both are material and explicitly non-divine. Both can \nmanipulate time and space, because both are material and not divine. \nThis \"law\" underlies all of Briah. Blurring and ambiguity can hardly be \nsaid to weaken the significance of the elements that are blurred---only \nthe significance of the original distinctions.\n\nI see Typhon's role in TBotNS as a sort of hyper-anti-Autarch, a Satan \nto Severian's parallel/opposite Christ figure, who demands that Severian \nkneel and accept him as his lord. Sev is practically just out of the \nwomb of the Tower and has left the guild for good when he meets Typhon \nand is at a very low point. So what's the first thing Typhon does? He \nfeeds Severian and demands an oath of loyalty.\n\nWhat is wrong with this oath? The more unique Typhon is, the more that \noath would be to his person and less to his throne. Typhon is all \narrogance and denial of love and death. His military prowess is implied \nat best, but hints are dropped, in the context of the very SF tradition \nyou call \"not uncommon,\" as to his unique mental powers. What good does \nit do to drop fake hints? They can mislead or provoke thought or lead to \nother points, but they should not confuse." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8A3B6D6FBFF64622A20E9AFAF2ED4D65@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T15:09:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E95A59D.8020707@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nSent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:35 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Subject: [BGSpam]Re: (urth) Typhon's nature\nOn 10/12/2011 9:03 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But if we look at the Ascians, the coin, Typhon etc., what I think we \nsee is a deliberate blurring of the boundaries between powers of \ncharisma, force of personality etc., and powers which we would \nconsider telepathic. Mucor’s telepathic abilities, apparently the \nresult of brain modification, suggest to me that in Wolfe’s world some \nelements of telepathy exist in everyone, but are stronger in some, and \nprobably trainable (c.f. Decuman and the village of sorcerers). Typhon \nprobably does have some telepathic powers which enhance his already \ngreat powers of charisma etc. It is a not uncommon trope in sf/fantasy.\nSeverian (and other narrators) are not delusional about the existence \nof such powers, but the powers are not of any special significance to \nthe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Downplaying mental magic seems pointless if such magic serves the \nnarrative, which it obviously does. There's no question that telepathy \nis a classic pulp trope that simply must appear in TBotNS, and therefore \nit appears. Typhon's powers, great or little, came up in a discussion of \ncloning and Silk---THAT is their critical significance. (Note: Mucor’s \ntelepathic abilities are NOT the result of brain modification but of \ngenetic modification, since they are present in embryo and such embryos \nare very special.) But there is more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t mean it is downplayed as such, I just think it is not an element of special significance.\nAs for Mucor, I agree that the engineering is probably genetic, although there are other possibilities. What I meant was that the intended and actual result of the embryological tinkering was to cause her brain to develop in an unusual fashion, which somehow endowed her with phenomenal psyschic powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see Typhon's role in TBotNS as a sort of hyper-anti-Autarch, a Satan \nto Severian's parallel/opposite Christ figure, who demands that Severian \nkneel and accept him as his lord. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, though his role seems more nuanced in the later series. Speaking of psychic powers, it seems possible that in BotNS it is something that is associated with evil, devil worship, the dark side who oppose Severian (though perhaps are not all wholly averse to the coming of Ushas). The “good” characters do not seem to have such powers, at least not in fashions similar to Typhon, Decuman, Abaia etc. Perhaps it is the old trope of misusing such powers for personal gain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev is practically just out of the \nwomb of the Tower and has left the guild for good when he meets Typhon \nand is at a very low point. So what's the first thing Typhon does? He \nfeeds Severian and demands an oath of loyalty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is wrong with this oath? The more unique Typhon is, the more that \noath would be to his person and less to his throne. Typhon is all \narrogance and denial of love and death. His military prowess is implied \nat best, but hints are dropped, in the context of the very SF tradition \nyou call \"not uncommon,\" as to his unique mental powers. What good does \nit do to drop fake hints? They can mislead or provoke thought or lead to \nother points, but they should not confuse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me they are not confusing because I do not find it very important what exact mix of technological, personality, and psychic powers is possessed by Typhon. Whether he has sent his thoughts into far places by telepathy or by logging onto still extant computer databases is something we are simply not told, and Severian, if he knew, would probably find both possibilities equally astounding.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T15:09:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<8A3B6D6FBFF64622A20E9AFAF2ED4D65@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller: \nAs I posted before the Mandragora was likely a proto chem Typhon built\nto download into. Theres a point in Long Sun where Silk having\ndiscovered that the Gods can possess chems and I remember Echidna\nmentioning a Prime Calcula in the Citadel. Im sure this was a\nreference to the mandragora. This would also keep with Wolfes naming\nconventions as Calculas is I believe the latin word for stone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSorry I missed your post Larry. Some interesting ideas! There are a few\nLatin words for stones and rocks. \"Calculus\" is most specifically for \"pebble\"\nwhich became associated with math via the use of pebbles in a Roman abacus-type \ncalculator. Anyway, with both the stone and computing aspects of the word, it \nbecomes a fantastic option as a name for a Chem. Not sure why Wolfe wanted to \nfeminize it by spelling it \"calcula\".\n\nPursuing that thought, I can't agree that the Mandragora is a good candidate \nfor the prime calcula of the Citadel. It seems to be a purely biological being;\na fetus, immersed in preserving fluid. Severian gives us no hints of any \nmechanical parts. Rather than being a \"prime calcula\" it is so ineffectual \nit just wants to die.\n \nMoreover, I think all of BotNS is contains a subtext of more biological SF, \nlike cloning and chemical memory. It was written in a time before electronic \ndownloads, when computer memory was encoded on magnetic tape and paper punch \ncards. 5HoC does have Mr. Million but his mental upload was a fatal process and\napparently not subject to further up/downloads.\n \nAnyway, if Wolfe meant the \"prime calcula\" to refer to a chem being in BotNS\nI think we only have two or three characters who qualify as mechanical \nbeings: Jonas, Sidero and Ossipago. None would seem to have any association\nwith the Citadel, unless.....\n \nPerhaps we could extend some latitude to Borski's idea that Ossipago is Father\nInire in disguise. The identification is based largely on the idea of obscured\neyes (eyes being the window to the soul, which chems don't have?). The role of\n\"bone grower\" and \"father\" are not so far apart.\n \nIf we can accept this idea, we now have a \"prime calcula\" who has been the power\nbehind the throne of the Commonwealth for a millenium, is the architect of the \nHouse Absolute and likely the Citadel (given the mystic pathways between them),\nand is the boss of Barbatus and Famulimus, directing their \"hammer\" and \"tongs\"\nactions which forge humanity.\n \nMoreover, Inire's name can be connected to the god Pan (from whom Pas seems to\nhave derived his name) and thus Dionysus, who is associated with The Outsider in\nRTTW. I find some substance to these connections and find them helpful to my own\nunderstanding of the text. Thanks for the inspiration, Larry! (even if not shared, heh) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318433082.86649.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T15:24:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/12/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n \nPerhaps we could extend some latitude to Borski's idea that\nOssipago is Father\nInire in disguise. The identification is based\nlargely on the idea of obscured\neyes (eyes being the window to the soul, which chems don't\nhave?). The role of\n\"bone grower\" and \"father\" are not so far apart.\n \nIf we can accept this idea, we now have a \"prime calcula\"\nwho has been the power\nbehind the throne of the Commonwealth for a millenium, is\nthe architect of the \nHouse Absolute and likely the Citadel (given the mystic\npathways between them),\nand is the boss of Barbatus and Famulimus, directing their\n\"hammer\" and \"tongs\"\nactions which forge humanity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Say it ain't so, Lee. Not the dreaded Inire is everybody theory because inire has an r and an e and so does everybody, and if you spell venial-body and connect it to Inire you can spell everybody. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T15:33:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318433082.86649.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I agree that various technologies are deliberately blurred, as is \n(famously) the line between technology and magic. This seems to be both \na stylistic approach and a philosophy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. I think this cuts to the crux of the debate. For some readers, Wolfe's work seems\nto be a collection of rippingly good yarns. Any perception of an overarching philosophy \nand use of sub-text to convey it is seen as a distraction and diminishing of the story.\nThese different approaches create a difficult platform for discussion between parties.\n \nI tend to agree with your assertion that a story which contains spaceships, ray guns, robots, \naliens, anti-gravity, cloning and time travel simply has to have telepathy. How could \nit be left out? ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E95B689.8040108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-12T15:47:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<8A3B6D6FBFF64622A20E9AFAF2ED4D65@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/2011 11:09 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n*Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:35 PM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Subject:* [BGSpam]Re: (urth) Typhon's nature" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/12/2011 9:03 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But if we look at the Ascians, the coin, Typhon etc., what I think we\nsee is a deliberate blurring of the boundaries between powers of\ncharisma, force of personality etc., and powers which we would\nconsider telepathic. Mucor’s telepathic abilities, apparently the\nresult of brain modification, suggest to me that in Wolfe’s world \nsome\nelements of telepathy exist in everyone, but are stronger in some, \nand\nprobably trainable (c.f. Decuman and the village of sorcerers). " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon\nprobably does have some telepathic powers which enhance his already\ngreat powers of charisma etc. It is a not uncommon trope in \nsf/fantasy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian (and other narrators) are not delusional about the existence\nof such powers, but the powers are not of any special significance to\nthe story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Downplaying mental magic seems pointless if such magic serves the\nnarrative, which it obviously does. There's no question that telepathy\nis a classic pulp trope that simply must appear in TBotNS, and \ntherefore\nit appears. Typhon's powers, great or little, came up in a \ndiscussion of\ncloning and Silk---THAT is their critical significance. (Note: Mucor’s\ntelepathic abilities are NOT the result of brain modification but of\ngenetic modification, since they are present in embryo and such embryos\nare very special.) But there is more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t mean it is downplayed as such, I just think it is not an \nelement of special significance.\nAs for Mucor, I agree that the engineering is probably genetic, \nalthough there are other possibilities. What I meant was that the \nintended and actual result of the embryological tinkering was to cause \nher brain to develop in an unusual fashion, which somehow endowed her \nwith phenomenal psyschic powers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. I just wanted to be clear there, since the brain develops AFTER \nthe genes are set." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I see Typhon's role in TBotNS as a sort of hyper-anti-Autarch, a Satan\nto Severian's parallel/opposite Christ figure, who demands that \nSeverian\nkneel and accept him as his lord." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree, though his role seems more nuanced in the later series. \nSpeaking of psychic powers, it seems possible that in BotNS it is \nsomething that is associated with evil, devil worship, the dark side \nwho oppose Severian (though perhaps are not all wholly averse to the \ncoming of Ushas). The “good” characters do not seem to have such \npowers, at least not in fashions similar to Typhon, Decuman, Abaia \netc. Perhaps it is the old trope of misusing such powers for personal \ngain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite possible! Pact with the devil and all that. Manfred, perhaps. See \nbelow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sev is practically just out of the\nwomb of the Tower and has left the guild for good when he meets Typhon\nand is at a very low point. So what's the first thing Typhon does? He\nfeeds Severian and demands an oath of loyalty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is wrong with this oath? The more unique Typhon is, the more that\noath would be to his person and less to his throne. Typhon is all\narrogance and denial of love and death. His military prowess is implied\nat best, but hints are dropped, in the context of the very SF tradition\nyou call \"not uncommon,\" as to his unique mental powers. What good does\nit do to drop fake hints? They can mislead or provoke thought or \nlead to\nother points, but they should not confuse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me they are not confusing because I do not find it very important \nwhat exact mix of technological, personality, and psychic powers is \npossessed by Typhon. Whether he has sent his thoughts into far places \nby telepathy or by logging onto still extant computer databases is \nsomething we are simply not told, and Severian, if he knew, would \nprobably find both possibilities equally astounding.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Astounding, or else pedestrian. We can't really tell, can we? But I \nagree that mechanisms are not strictly critical outside of hard SF, \nwhich this ain't. But what about my point above? An interstellar emperor \nwho basically uses Daddy's wealth to create his empire is quite \ndifferent from one who asserts the power of his self, is it not? (A \nTrump-style president who uses self-promotion to hide his incompetence \nvs an Eisenhower?) Force of personality, force of mind, same thing. \nFancy electronics---not so much. BIG difference there, and that's a \nbigger point than ESP, aside from the cloning debate.\n\nTyphon wants to govern the universe by unleashing (ungoverning) himself. \nThat's why I call him anti-Autarch. If his powers come from himself, the \npoint is more strongly made." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T16:17:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E95B689.8040108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does the multi-head/multi-limb aspect of the Neighbors reflect a tree origin? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my opinion, yes, and it also symbolically represents the doubled genetic \nnature of a hybrid strain (corn genetics in the first chapter of OBW and \nhybridization linked to the condition of Blue - ad nauseum! Both symbolic of \nSilk-Horn and the neighbors as hybrids more suited to the harsh environment). \nNote how MAD the neighbors get when a guy with an ax goes into the forest. \nwhy? It's mother tree he's going to cut down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. The pieces fit together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Say it ain't so, Lee. Not the dreaded Inire is everybody theory because inire has \nan r and an e and so does everybody, and if you spell venial-body and connect it to \nInire you can spell everybody. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nHeh, funny! Actually I agree with you that Borski's 20 pages of Solar Labyrinth \n\"onomastics\" where he connects every name in BotNS with every other name to be a \nridiculous waste of paper. But I do consider Borski to be a very intelligent guy whose \nthoughts are worth paying attention to. (what Borski is not intelligent enough to do is \n\"solve\" Gene Wolfe's work all by himself. IMHO, his major errors all stem from his refusal \nto consult with anyone but himself in developing his ideas.)\n \nMuch discussion has been devoted to this topic over the past years, so I'll just try to \nsummarize why I am open to the idea that Father Inire is \"everybody\" or at least quite\na few different characters.\n \n1. We never openly see the Father Inire character in the action. This must have a literary\npurpose. It might be to hint that he is actually seen all over the place.\n \n2. I think the text presents the (old) Autarch and his actions and devices to be a pale echo \nof Father Inire's. Conversely I think the text presents Father Inire and his devices to be a \npale echo of those used by Tzadkiel. We are shown the old Autarch playing a few different roles\nwith minimal changes in his appearance. We are shown Tzadkiel playing a number of different\nroles with drastic changes in appearance. I find it logical that Father Inire conducts \nhimself in a similar fashion at a level somewhere in between those two.\n \n3. I think the origin/significance of Father Inire's name must be important. I'll ignore the\n\"Father\" part for now though it is important. The Latin verb \"inire\" meaning 'sexual entrance\"\nis derived from Inuus, an epithet of the god Faunus/Pan. One of mythological Pan's tricks was\nto multiply himself into a small horde of copies who could each independently conduct various\naspects of Pan's desires and goals.\n\n4. Long Sun rather pointedly suggests Pan as an origin for the name of Pas. Short Sun pointedly\nreferences The Outsider as being associated with Dionysus, a god associated with Pan (not to \nmention the Celtic \"Green Man\" and various other pre/alt.-christian deities).\n \nThese four points are enough for me to at least consider the possibility that Father Inire is a \ncharacter who can be found appearing throughout this story. This constant involvement/interference\nwith human beings is what we might expect a pagan god to do in a non-Judeo-Christian universe, \nwhich is what I think Briah is. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T17:50:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Im pretty sure we see Inire twice in BotNS. The crooked bent man that\nappears before the Autarch and Severian in the Secret House and the\nfigure Severian sees entering the Autarchs tent near the end of\nCitadel is Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does the multi-head/multi-limb aspect of the Neighbors reflect a tree\norigin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In my opinion, yes, and it also symbolically represents the doubled genetic\n\nnature of a hybrid strain (corn genetics in the first chapter of OBW and\nhybridization linked to the condition of Blue - ad nauseum! Both symbolic\nof\nSilk-Horn and the neighbors as hybrids more suited to the harsh\nenvironment).\nNote how MAD the neighbors get when a guy with an ax goes into the forest.\n\nwhy? It's mother tree he's going to cut down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. The pieces fit together." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Say it ain't so, Lee. Not the dreaded Inire is everybody theory because\ninire has\nan r and an e and so does everybody, and if you spell venial-body and\nconnect it to\nInire you can spell everybody. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh, funny! Actually I agree with you that Borski's 20 pages of Solar\nLabyrinth\n\"onomastics\" where he connects every name in BotNS with every other name to\nbe a\nridiculous waste of paper. But I do consider Borski to be a very intelligent\nguy whose\nthoughts are worth paying attention to. (what Borski is not intelligent\nenough to do is\n\"solve\" Gene Wolfe's work all by himself. IMHO, his major errors all stem\nfrom his refusal\nto consult with anyone but himself in developing his ideas.)\n\nMuch discussion has been devoted to this topic over the past years, so I'll\njust try to\nsummarize why I am open to the idea that Father Inire is \"everybody\" or at\nleast quite\na few different characters.\n\n1. We never openly see the Father Inire character in the action. This must\nhave a literary\npurpose. It might be to hint that he is actually seen all over the place.\n\n2. I think the text presents the (old) Autarch and his actions and devices\nto be a pale echo\nof Father Inire's. Conversely I think the text presents Father Inire and his\ndevices to be a\npale echo of those used by Tzadkiel. We are shown the old Autarch playing a\nfew different roles\nwith minimal changes in his appearance. We are shown Tzadkiel playing a\nnumber of different\nroles with drastic changes in appearance. I find it logical that Father\nInire conducts\nhimself in a similar fashion at a level somewhere in between those two.\n\n3. I think the origin/significance of Father Inire's name must be important.\nI'll ignore the\n\"Father\" part for now though it is important. The Latin verb \"inire\"\nmeaning 'sexual entrance\"\nis derived from Inuus, an epithet of the god Faunus/Pan. One of\nmythological Pan's tricks was\nto multiply himself into a small horde of copies who could each\nindependently conduct various\naspects of Pan's desires and goals.\n\n4. Long Sun rather pointedly suggests Pan as an origin for the name of Pas.\nShort Sun pointedly\nreferences The Outsider as being associated with Dionysus, a god associated\nwith Pan (not to\nmention the Celtic \"Green Man\" and various other pre/alt.-christian\ndeities).\n\nThese four points are enough for me to at least consider the possibility\nthat Father Inire is a\ncharacter who can be found appearing throughout this story. This constant\ninvolvement/interference\nwith human beings is what we might expect a pagan god to do in a\nnon-Judeo-Christian universe,\nwhich is what I think Briah is. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T18:02:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think calling it a fetus my be a mistake on Severians part. I think\nthe Mandragora may in fact just be small. It tells Severian it was\ndeformed- maybe in reference to its stunted growth? Maybe thats why\nTyphon never transfers into it. While Im thinking about it does anyone\nhave an idea what the \"emerald bench\" Severian mentions in the same\nchapter could be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Larry Miller:\nAs I posted before the Mandragora was likely a proto chem Typhon built\nto download into. Theres a point in Long Sun where Silk having\ndiscovered that the Gods can possess chems and I remember Echidna\nmentioning a Prime Calcula in the Citadel. Im sure this was a\nreference to the mandragora. This would also keep with Wolfes naming\nconventions as Calculas is I believe the latin word for stone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry I missed your post Larry. Some interesting ideas! There are a few\nLatin words for stones and rocks. \"Calculus\" is most specifically for\n\"pebble\"\nwhich became associated with math via the use of pebbles in a Roman\nabacus-type\ncalculator. Anyway, with both the stone and computing aspects of the word,\nit\nbecomes a fantastic option as a name for a Chem. Not sure why Wolfe wanted\nto\nfeminize it by spelling it \"calcula\".\n\nPursuing that thought, I can't agree that the Mandragora is a good candidate\nfor the prime calcula of the Citadel. It seems to be a purely biological\nbeing;\na fetus, immersed in preserving fluid. Severian gives us no hints of any\nmechanical parts. Rather than being a \"prime calcula\" it is so ineffectual\nit just wants to die.\n\nMoreover, I think all of BotNS is contains a subtext of more biological SF,\nlike cloning and chemical memory. It was written in a time before\nelectronic\ndownloads, when computer memory was encoded on magnetic tape and paper punch\ncards. 5HoC does have Mr. Million but his mental upload was a fatal process\nand\napparently not subject to further up/downloads.\n\nAnyway, if Wolfe meant the \"prime calcula\" to refer to a chem being in BotNS\nI think we only have two or three characters who qualify as mechanical\nbeings: Jonas, Sidero and Ossipago. None would seem to have any\nassociation\nwith the Citadel, unless.....\n\nPerhaps we could extend some latitude to Borski's idea that Ossipago is\nFather\nInire in disguise. The identification is based largely on the idea of\nobscured\neyes (eyes being the window to the soul, which chems don't have?). The role\nof\n\"bone grower\" and \"father\" are not so far apart.\n\nIf we can accept this idea, we now have a \"prime calcula\" who has been the\npower\nbehind the throne of the Commonwealth for a millenium, is the architect of\nthe\nHouse Absolute and likely the Citadel (given the mystic pathways between\nthem),\nand is the boss of Barbatus and Famulimus, directing their \"hammer\" and\n\"tongs\"\nactions which forge humanity.\n\nMoreover, Inire's name can be connected to the god Pan (from whom Pas seems\nto\nhave derived his name) and thus Dionysus, who is associated with The\nOutsider in\nRTTW. I find some substance to these connections and find them helpful to my\nown\nunderstanding of the text. Thanks for the inspiration, Larry! (even if not\nshared, heh) \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E965550.9050204@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T03:04:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E959986.3010702@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/2011 8:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nJust as a telepathic Typhon would not abandon\nradio and other electromechanical technology (see the Mule), the Beasts\nwould not abandon basic tools of manipulation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me your scheme of frightening humans into submission would\nonly work for coastal peoples." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sigh. I'm sorry to disappoint any expectation of a comprehensive plan \nfor world domination; I thought a few illustrative examples would \nsuffice. If you want the full scheme, I demand one million dollars!\n\n\"blot the sun with smoke and ash/send pestilences\" should be credible \nin places distant from water, especially if you *actually* blot the sun \nfor a while, or actually let some un-Urthly pests devour some crops and \nbite prominent citizens.\n\nThe carrot may compel as well as the stick; presumably some people will \nfall for the undine's charms and their offers of curiously wrought jewelry." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9658B5.2000307@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T03:19:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/2011 1:02 PM, larry miller wrote:\nI think calling it a fetus my be a mistake on Severians part. I think\nthe Mandragora may in fact just be small. It tells Severian it was\ndeformed- maybe in reference to its stunted growth? Maybe thats why\nTyphon never transfers into it. While Im thinking about it does anyone\nhave an idea what the \"emerald bench\" Severian mentions in the same\nchapter could be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_Tablet" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318478266.17919.YahooMailNeo@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T03:57:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E944D2D.6040807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nOn 10/11/2011 1:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do we know Mucor's talent is genetic? Maybe it's the result of an implant or? brain surgery or magic performed on her embryo. Or are you using \"genetic\" as a shorthand for some broader idea? It seems to me Typhon's psionic talents are quite possible for humans in Briah, considering Mucor and Decuman. We have no idea what enhancement and special training Typhon might have. Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The councilors' discussion of Mucor and the missing embryo that was Silk makes it very clear that they are much the same. Surgery can't explain a \"magic\" embryo. But the very fact that it's an embryo is a clear signal that the origin of its magic is fundamentally genetic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have time to argue with you and Lee about this, so I hope we can agree to disagree.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318480285.31840.YahooMailNeo@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T04:31:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: I agree that various technologies are deliberately blurred, \nas is \n(famously) the line between technology and magic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting exercise for some might be to consider all the mind control and telepathy in the Sun books. There's a lot, from the revolutionary, shown as purely technological, to Decuman's spell, which Severian speculates on in pure black-magic terms, with all kinds of others, often not explained at all. They could then decides which examples throw light on which others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This seems to be both a stylistic approach and a philosophy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. I think this cuts to the crux of the debate. For some readers, Wolfe's \nwork seems\nto be a collection of rippingly good yarns. Any perception of an overarching \nphilosophy \nand use of sub-text to convey it is seen as a distraction and diminishing of the \nstory.\nThese different approaches create a difficult platform for discussion between \nparties." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nAs do caricatures such as the one above. I'll leave the caricature of the opposite approach as an exercise.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E96D7DA.5020303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-13T12:21:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E965550.9050204@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/2011 11:04 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/12/2011 8:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just as a telepathic Typhon would not abandon\nradio and other electromechanical technology (see the Mule), the Beasts\nwould not abandon basic tools of manipulation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems to me your scheme of frightening humans into submission would\nonly work for coastal peoples." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sigh. I'm sorry to disappoint any expectation of a comprehensive plan \nfor world domination; I thought a few illustrative examples would \nsuffice. If you want the full scheme, I demand one million dollars!\n\n\"blot the sun with smoke and ash/send pestilences\" should be credible \nin places distant from water, especially if you *actually* blot the \nsun for a while, or actually let some un-Urthly pests devour some \ncrops and bite prominent citizens.\n\nThe carrot may compel as well as the stick; presumably some people \nwill fall for the undine's charms and their offers of curiously \nwrought jewelry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. It's not clear how they would accomplish even those things, however." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E96F51D.1030301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-13T14:26:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318478266.17919.YahooMailNeo@web114715.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/12/2011 11:57 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff\nOn 10/11/2011 1:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Do we know Mucor's talent is genetic? Maybe it's the result of an implant or brain surgery or magic performed on her embryo. Or are you using \"genetic\" as a shorthand for some broader idea? It seems to me Typhon's psionic talents are quite possible for humans in Briah, considering Mucor and Decuman. We have no idea what enhancement and special training Typhon might have. Jerry Friedman\nThe councilors' discussion of Mucor and the missing embryo that was Silk makes it very clear that they are much the same. Surgery can't explain a \"magic\" embryo. But the very fact that it's an embryo is a clear signal that the origin of its magic is fundamentally genetic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't have time to argue with you and Lee about this, so I hope we can agree to disagree.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, but can you at least put forth an alternative theory that explains \nwhat is special about Mucor, and Mucor's embryo, etc. Otherwise, we're \nnot actually even disagreeing. It seems to me you are suggesting that a \nsurgical implant into an embryo is an equally likely source of Mucor's \nabilities vs breeding/splicing. Is that right?\n\nTo me, that's like a murder mystery where the killer happens to have a \nmysterious superpoison he inserts into a tomato seed so he can grow a \nsingle poisoned tomato he serves to his wife in a salad. It explains \nnothing, makes no sense on any level, and greatly overcomplicates \neverything without making a good story. The killer would be caught just \nthe same as if he used a hammer." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E96F94D.3000002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-13T14:44:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318480285.31840.YahooMailNeo@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/13/2011 12:31 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: I agree that various technologies are deliberately blurred, as is\n(famously) the line between technology and magic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An interesting exercise for some might be to consider all the mind control and telepathy in the Sun books. There's a lot, from the revolutionary, shown as purely technological, to Decuman's spell, which Severian speculates on in pure black-magic terms, with all kinds of others, often not explained at all. They could then decides which examples throw light on which others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is quite a bit, yes. But almost none of the technology is \ndescribed in a direct, straightforward manner, especially in TBotNS. \nEven bits such as Typhon's explanation of antigravity are obfuscating. \nAll the bits contradict one another or could be said to present \nalternative understandings of reality: mechanical machines, thinking \nmachines, spells, brain tissue, higher species. The nature of reality \ndefies simple analysis. The characters inhabit a world that is \"dirty\" \nand granular and so saturated with SF tropes that they don't even think \nabout explaining these mechanisms nor expect them to cohere, even \nperhaps when they make use of them.\n\nIn this context, why (and how) argue that Typhon definitely or even \nprimarily LACKS psionic powers? The onus would seem to be on such a \ntheory to explain itself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E973BF5.1010602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-13T19:28:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<8b8eb2992ceb3929cc73f0811a11ec2b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/11/2011 5:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nTyphon's sending of his thoughts into distant places remains a somewhat\ncurious idiom if it is not literal, but it is not entirely without\nprecedent in literature and bombast and other figurative expression." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am suddenly reminded of the Wizard of Oz. It's something he might have \nsaid (although he didn't)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318569770.67576.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T05:22:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E96F51D.1030301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/2011 11:57 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " From: David Stockhoff\n On 10/11/2011 1:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " Do we know Mucor's talent is genetic? Maybe it's the \nresult of an implant or? brain surgery or magic performed on her embryo. Or are \nyou using \"genetic\" as a shorthand for some broader idea? It seems to \nme Typhon's psionic talents are quite possible for humans in Briah, \nconsidering Mucor and Decuman. We have no idea what enhancement and special \ntraining Typhon might have. Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " The councilors' discussion of Mucor and the missing embryo that was \nSilk makes it very clear that they are much the same. Surgery can't explain \na \"magic\" embryo. But the very fact that it's an embryo is a clear \nsignal that the origin of its magic is fundamentally genetic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I don't have time to argue with you and Lee about this, so I hope we \ncan agree to disagree.\n\n Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, but can you at least put forth an alternative theory that explains what is \nspecial about Mucor, and Mucor's embryo, etc. Otherwise, we're not \nactually even disagreeing. It seems to me you are suggesting that a surgical \nimplant into an embryo is an equally likely source of Mucor's abilities vs \nbreeding/splicing. Is that right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I've got some time.\n\nIn the real world, I'd say a surgical implant was the obvious possibility. How can producing different proteins make a brain capable of taking over other brains? In sf, that doesn't apply.\n\nIn Chapter 6 of RttW, Silkhorn tells Hound the embryos were \"the products of carefully controlled matings in his workshops\". I suppose there could have been no more intervention than that. On the other hand, Crane tells Silk that Mucor's brain was not recognizably human (LotLS, Chapter 11). That sounds like a lot to get out of selective breeding, and makes me suspect that Typhon's scientists did something more in the labs. Genetic engineering, implants, surgery, and changing the environment in the uterine replicators (as we call them here in the wormhole nexus) all seem like possibilities and are compatible with each other.\n\nOne speculation: There's an sf cliche that we'd all have superpowers, but we inhibit them. (The mandragora tells Severian that Sev's continued psychic shrieking from being abandoned as an infant inhibits his telepathy, which is along the same lines but not the same.)? Maybe someone did a little surgery on Mucor's embryo to disable the part of the brain that would have inhibited her powers.\n\nAnyway, I don't see that it matters to the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me, that's like a murder mystery where the killer happens to have a \nmysterious superpoison he inserts into a tomato seed so he can grow a single \npoisoned tomato he serves to his wife in a salad. It explains nothing, makes no \nsense on any level, and greatly overcomplicates everything without making a good \nstory. The killer would be caught just the same as if he used a hammer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me it's more like saying, \"We can't find any trace of the weapon--it might have been the hammer we're told he had, or a rock, or a frozen leg of lamb. But we know the husband did it anyway.\"\n\nJerry Friedman\nI'd forgotten about the conversation between?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T12:29:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318569770.67576.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: The mandragora tells Severian that Sev's continued psychic shrieking \nfrom being abandoned as an infant inhibits his telepathy, which is along the same lines \nbut not the same.) Maybe someone did a little surgery on Mucor's embryo to disable the \npart of the brain that would have inhibited her powers. Anyway, I don't see that it matters \nto the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the best answer is whatever gives you that \"click\" sense of just feeling right. If \nthe surgery hypothesis does that, you should go with that.\n \nFor me, the seeds of the entire Sun series can be found in Fifth Head of Cerberus: the \nuploading of human intelligence to machines, the dead end nature of cloning, the \nmystery of identity and family, the origin of myth, the relationship of the faerie/divine\nworld with our \"reality\" etc.\n \nOf the three sections of the Sun series I am least familiar with Long Sun. But given the \nthemes I think Wolfe established in 5HoC, I tend to gravitate toward genetics and cloning\nas explanations which tie into the larger picture Wolfe is trying to paint. I get the \nimpression Wolfe is trying to make philosophical points with all that he writes, though I'm \nnot sure all his fans would agree. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9AF7A2A2795B4CC2BA36BF314362BE08@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T12:53:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E95B689.8040108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/12/2011 11:09 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFor me they are not confusing because I do not find it very important \nwhat exact mix of technological, personality, and psychic powers is \npossessed by Typhon. Whether he has sent his thoughts into far places \nby telepathy or by logging onto still extant computer databases is \nsomething we are simply not told, and Severian, if he knew, would \nprobably find both possibilities equally astounding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Astounding, or else pedestrian. We can't really tell, can we? But I \nagree that mechanisms are not strictly critical outside of hard SF, \nwhich this ain't. But what about my point above? An interstellar emperor \nwho basically uses Daddy's wealth to create his empire is quite \ndifferent from one who asserts the power of his self, is it not? (A \nTrump-style president who uses self-promotion to hide his incompetence \nvs an Eisenhower?) Force of personality, force of mind, same thing. \nFancy electronics---not so much. BIG difference there, and that's a \nbigger point than ESP, aside from the cloning debate.\n\nTyphon wants to govern the universe by unleashing (ungoverning) himself. \nThat's why I call him anti-Autarch. If his powers come from himself, the \npoint is more strongly made." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I think we can all agree that Typhon does have great force of personality and will to power. This is the essential thing about him. To fulfil his drive to conquer he uses the things and people about him, and any tools available to him. He uses armies, he uses databases. He uses the power to command that by way of propaganda and years of power have been identified with his face in the mind of the populace — hence the whole head transplant. If he has innate psychic powers he uses them too, but they are no more significant than the strength of his hands.\nIn the Long Sun series, we learn more about life on Typhon’s Urth from Mamelta, a young computer technician who was one of the millions selected by Typhon and commanded to enter the Whorl as a sleeper. We learn much from the very fact of command, of course: “We had to volunteer. They were — you couldn’t say no.” She agreed with Silk that the Loganstone was a “slave boat”. [Note: This passage also seems to make it clear that Mamelta was nobody special on Urth. Of course she might for all we know have been forced previously to donate eggs, and one of them could have been fertilised and engineered to eventually become Silk, and then she might have become the one of many sleepers woken by Mucor to be woken just as Silk arrived, but there is no indication in the text that any such series of coincidences happened.]\nWe also learn that the inhabitants of Typhon’s Urth (or maybe just certain classes or occupations) were wired into some kind of always-on telepathic internet. They did not need to use normal speech to communicate, and the system was also used for control: the family of the Monarch danced or stalked through their dreams. When they were placed in the Whorl, brain operations were needed to remove the apparatus (whether that consisted of modified brain tissue or electronics we are not told) associated with this internet, and to reduce their mental dependence on the rulers. The latter was not possible to completely achieve - and thus came about the eventual political/religious structure of the Whorl - but the surgeons did “as much as they dared”. Brain centres associated with speech processing may have also needed to be revamped, or it may be that the ability to speak “to move my lips and my tongue... while I make this noise in my throat” was present anyway, though unused.\nSo Typhon’s psychic domination of his people was technologically mediated, in the end. Of course, Wolfe probably hadn’t decided on any of that when he wrote BotNS, and for all we know he may have leaned the other way at that time.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9843C5.2060208@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T14:14:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318569770.67576.YahooMailNeo@web114713.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 10/14/2011 1:22 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nOkay, I've got some time. In the real world, I'd say a surgical implant \nwas the obvious possibility. How can producing different proteins make \na brain capable of taking over other brains? In sf, that doesn't apply.\n\nIn Chapter 6 of RttW, Silkhorn tells Hound the embryos were \"the \nproducts of carefully controlled matings in his workshops\". I suppose \nthere could have been no more intervention than that. On the other \nhand, Crane tells Silk that Mucor's brain was not recognizably human \n(LotLS, Chapter 11). That sounds like a lot to get out of selective \nbreeding, and makes me suspect that Typhon's scientists did something \nmore in the labs. Genetic engineering, implants, surgery, and changing \nthe environment in the uterine replicators (as we call them here in the \nwormhole nexus) all seem like possibilities and are compatible with each \nother.\n\nOne speculation: There's an sf cliche that we'd all have superpowers, \nbut we inhibit them. (The mandragora tells Severian that Sev's \ncontinued psychic shrieking from being abandoned as an infant inhibits \nhis telepathy, which is along the same lines but not the same.) Maybe \nsomeone did a little surgery on Mucor's embryo to disable the part of \nthe brain that would have inhibited her powers. Anyway, I don't see that \nit matters to the story.\n\n\n\nI think it matters in terms of figuring out what's possible in the rest \nof the story.\n\nPositing that Typhon's labs could insert nanorobots into embryos doesn't \ntell us what to do with the \"carefully controlled matings\" remark. \nPositing microsurgical techniques fails to explain why we don't see more \nevidence of microsurgery. Positing that Mucor is radio-controlled \nthrough her fillings only pushes the explanation farther away.\n\nThere is also the fundamental technical problem that embryos don't have \nbrains. You can't operate on a brain that has not yet come into being, \nnor will an implant do anything for quite some time. In fact, if the \nbrain does not develop as desired, the implant will prove to be a huge \nwaste. Implants fail, surgeries fail. Since we are dealing with embryos \non the Long Sun side (and large numbers of them), that pretty much \nsettles it.\n\nBut genetic manipulation is supported, does not need teams of scientists \nperforming thousands of surgeries (since the damn things grow by \nthemselves once you start them off---they don't need revisions or \nfollow-up visits), and directly connects to ever-present concerns about \npaternity, heredity, and identity.\n\nI'd go so far as to assume that all technology in Briah is genetic, or \nat least somatic (who knows about astral travel, but we know there is no \n\"astral travel suit\"), unless demonstrably otherwise." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T14:51:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<9AF7A2A2795B4CC2BA36BF314362BE08@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anyone think this telepathic-internet might be connected with\nCyriacas story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff\nOn 10/12/2011 11:09 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For me they are not confusing because I do not find it very important\nwhat exact mix of technological, personality, and psychic powers is\npossessed by Typhon. Whether he has sent his thoughts into far places\nby telepathy or by logging onto still extant computer databases is\nsomething we are simply not told, and Severian, if he knew, would\nprobably find both possibilities equally astounding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Astounding, or else pedestrian. We can't really tell, can we? But I\nagree that mechanisms are not strictly critical outside of hard SF,\nwhich this ain't. But what about my point above? An interstellar emperor\nwho basically uses Daddy's wealth to create his empire is quite\ndifferent from one who asserts the power of his self, is it not? (A\nTrump-style president who uses self-promotion to hide his incompetence\nvs an Eisenhower?) Force of personality, force of mind, same thing.\nFancy electronics---not so much. BIG difference there, and that's a\nbigger point than ESP, aside from the cloning debate.\n\nTyphon wants to govern the universe by unleashing (ungoverning) himself.\nThat's why I call him anti-Autarch. If his powers come from himself, the\npoint is more strongly made." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I think we can all agree that Typhon does have great force of\npersonality and will to power. This is the essential thing about him. To\nfulfil his drive to conquer he uses the things and people about him, and any\ntools available to him. He uses armies, he uses databases. He uses the\npower to command that by way of propaganda and years of power have been\nidentified with his face in the mind of the populace — hence the whole head\ntransplant. If he has innate psychic powers he uses them too, but they are\nno more significant than the strength of his hands.\nIn the Long Sun series, we learn more about life on Typhon’s Urth from\nMamelta, a young computer technician who was one of the millions selected by\nTyphon and commanded to enter the Whorl as a sleeper. We learn much from\nthe very fact of command, of course: “We had to volunteer. They were — you\ncouldn’t say no.” She agreed with Silk that the Loganstone was a “slave\nboat”. [Note: This passage also seems to make it clear that Mamelta was\nnobody special on Urth. Of course she might for all we know have been\nforced previously to donate eggs, and one of them could have been fertilised\nand engineered to eventually become Silk, and then she might have become the\none of many sleepers woken by Mucor to be woken just as Silk arrived, but\nthere is no indication in the text that any such series of coincidences\nhappened.]\nWe also learn that the inhabitants of Typhon’s Urth (or maybe just certain\nclasses or occupations) were wired into some kind of always-on telepathic\ninternet. They did not need to use normal speech to communicate, and the\nsystem was also used for control: the family of the Monarch danced or\nstalked through their dreams. When they were placed in the Whorl, brain\noperations were needed to remove the apparatus (whether that consisted of\nmodified brain tissue or electronics we are not told) associated with this\ninternet, and to reduce their mental dependence on the rulers. The latter\nwas not possible to completely achieve - and thus came about the eventual\npolitical/religious structure of the Whorl - but the surgeons did “as much\nas they dared”. Brain centres associated with speech processing may have\nalso needed to be revamped, or it may be that the ability to speak “to move\nmy lips and my tongue... while I make this noise in my throat” was present\nanyway, though unused.\nSo Typhon’s psychic domination of his people was technologically mediated,\nin the end. Of course, Wolfe probably hadn’t decided on any of that when he\nwrote BotNS, and for all we know he may have leaned the other way at that\ntime.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8E6D1B3CDF0B49039DDFFD1D3852B7E2@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T14:54:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9843C5.2060208@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Positing that Typhon's labs could insert nanorobots into embryos doesn't \ntell us what to do with the \"carefully controlled matings\" remark. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps both are needed for optimal performance.\nReally, I agree that genetic engineering is the most obvious technological way to go in producing the desired effects, at least with our current understanding. I’m willing to assume that that (probably combined with carefully controlled matings) was probably what was done. But I don’t think we know for sure, and if there was some special reason to believe it was nanobots instead I’d happily countenance it.\nThe telepathic internet described by Mamelta, after all, doesn’t seem like it was necessarily implemented by genetic engineering. It might have been, although that means Typhon would have had to wait two decades to set it up, or else employed surgical modification or other methods for the first generation, switching to genetic engineering later.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49CA7B70BDBA4C4C95147EBB24823DC5@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T15:02:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: larry miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does anyone think this telepathic-internet might be connected with\nCyriacas story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting idea. My instinct is that Cyriaca’s story relates to a much earlier time, and she makes no mention of Typhon but refers instead to a machine-dominated society. But it’s not inconceivable. \nOne other reason for doubting it is that it seems improbable that Wolfe had thought of Mamelta when he wrote Cyriaca.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We also learn that the inhabitants of Typhon’s Urth (or maybe just certain\nclasses or occupations) were wired into some kind of always-on telepathic\ninternet. They did not need to use normal speech to communicate, and the\nsystem was also used for control: the family of the Monarch danced or\nstalked through their dreams. When they were placed in the Whorl, brain\noperations were needed to remove the apparatus (whether that consisted of\nmodified brain tissue or electronics we are not told) associated with this\ninternet, and to reduce their mental dependence on the rulers. The latter\nwas not possible to completely achieve - and thus came about the eventual\npolitical/religious structure of the Whorl - but the surgeons did “as much\nas they dared”. Brain centres associated with speech processing may have\nalso needed to be revamped, or it may be that the ability to speak “to move\nmy lips and my tongue... while I make this noise in my throat” was present\nanyway, though unused." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318605413.57645.YahooMailNeo@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T15:16:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman: The mandragora tells Severian that Sev's continued \npsychic shrieking \nfrom being abandoned as an infant inhibits his telepathy, which is along the \nsame lines \nbut not the same.)? Maybe someone did a little surgery on Mucor's embryo \nto disable the \npart of the brain that would have inhibited her powers. Anyway, I don't \nsee that it matters to the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the best answer is whatever gives you that \"click\" sense of \njust feeling right. If \nthe surgery hypothesis does that, you should go with that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might be churlish of me to disagree when you're being so agreeable, but you've put your finger on the difference between our styles of interpretation. None of the hypotheses gives me that \"click\" sense, and I see no reason to go with one in particular. The best answer for me is to accept that we don't know, except that Crane tells us controlled conception was involved and Silkhorn (who may have additional sources of information) repeats it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, the seeds of the entire Sun series can be found in Fifth Head of \nCerberus: the \nuploading of human intelligence to machines, the dead end nature of cloning, the \n\nmystery of identity and family, the origin of myth, the relationship of the \nfaerie/divine\nworld with our \"reality\" etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly those are among Wolfe's repeated interests." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of the three sections of the Sun series I am least familiar with Long Sun. But \ngiven the \nthemes I think Wolfe established in 5HoC, I tend to gravitate toward genetics \nand cloning\nas explanations which tie into the larger picture Wolfe is trying to paint. I \nget the \nimpression Wolfe is trying to make philosophical points with all that he writes, \nthough I'm not sure all his fans would agree. ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd say \"with some of what he writes\".\n\nSteven Brust apparently says he got his method from Wolfe: it's \"And now, I'm going to tell you something really cool.\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=hHbWswMuvOgC&pg=PA397\n\nDoes anyone know what the source of that might be?\n\nOf course, for Wolfe (and most of us), philosophy can be really cool.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T15:25:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<49CA7B70BDBA4C4C95147EBB24823DC5@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: larry miller " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does anyone think this telepathic-internet might be connected with\nCyriacas story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting idea. My instinct is that Cyriaca’s story relates to a much earlier time, and she makes no mention of Typhon but refers instead to a machine-dominated society. But it’s not inconceivable. \nOne other reason for doubting it is that it seems improbable that Wolfe had thought of Mamelta when he wrote Cyriaca.\n- Gerry Quinn\n \nSome think the monarch who planned to destroy all human books/knowledge was Typhon but I dunno. My memory is a little fuzzy on Cyriaca's story but I think it is primarily meant to provide a framework for the creation of the Hiero-types we hear more about in Malrubius' story. If the hieros are like angel-analogs then the ones who are personally assigned to\npeople, like Malrubius and Triskele for Severian, become \"guardian angels\" I guess. The \nold Autarch says he got one too.\n \nI'm tempted to think that the hieros are related to the Long/Short Sun story. Maybe somehow\nthey are related to The Neighbors? But I think some Wolfe quotes have suggested that isn't the case and Long/Short is just a side story rather than relating to the universal future which the hieros represent.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E985943.3030203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T15:46:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<9AF7A2A2795B4CC2BA36BF314362BE08@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 8:53 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/12/2011 11:09 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For me they are not confusing because I do not find it very important\nwhat exact mix of technological, personality, and psychic powers is\npossessed by Typhon. Whether he has sent his thoughts into far places\nby telepathy or by logging onto still extant computer databases is\nsomething we are simply not told, and Severian, if he knew, would\nprobably find both possibilities equally astounding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Astounding, or else pedestrian. We can't really tell, can we? But I\nagree that mechanisms are not strictly critical outside of hard SF,\nwhich this ain't. But what about my point above? An interstellar \nemperor\nwho basically uses Daddy's wealth to create his empire is quite\ndifferent from one who asserts the power of his self, is it not? (A\nTrump-style president who uses self-promotion to hide his incompetence\nvs an Eisenhower?) Force of personality, force of mind, same thing.\nFancy electronics---not so much. BIG difference there, and that's a\nbigger point than ESP, aside from the cloning debate.\n\nTyphon wants to govern the universe by unleashing (ungoverning) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's why I call him anti-Autarch. If his powers come from himself, \nthe\npoint is more strongly made." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I think we can all agree that Typhon does have great force of \npersonality and will to power. This is the essential thing about him. \nTo fulfil his drive to conquer he uses the things and people about \nhim, and any tools available to him. He uses armies, he uses \ndatabases. He uses the power to command that by way of propaganda and \nyears of power have been identified with his face in the mind of the \npopulace — hence the whole head transplant. If he has innate psychic \npowers he uses them too, but they are no more significant than the \nstrength of his hands." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Significant in what sense?\n\nIf I ruled worlds with all those tools you list, and then you found out \nI was psionic (without using a psionic helmet), would that not strike \nyou as significant?\n\nWhat if I boasted of these powers?\n\nWhat if I claimed (or hinted at) them but had none?\n\nAll these hypotheticals are situations in which the \"significance\" of \npsionic powers TO THE STORY is quite high. Wolfe has made choices---the \nchoices are significant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the Long Sun series, we learn more about life on Typhon’s Urth from \nMamelta, a young computer technician who was one of the millions \nselected by Typhon and commanded to enter the Whorl as a sleeper. We \nlearn much from the very fact of command, of course: “We had to \nvolunteer. They were — you couldn’t say no.” She agreed with Silk that \nthe Loganstone was a “slave boat”. [Note: This passage also seems to \nmake it clear that Mamelta was nobody special on Urth. Of course she \nmight for all we know have been forced previously to donate eggs, and \none of them could have been fertilised and engineered to eventually \nbecome Silk, and then she might have become the one of many sleepers \nwoken by Mucor to be woken just as Silk arrived, but there is no \nindication in the text that any such series of coincidences happened.]\nWe also learn that the inhabitants of Typhon’s Urth (or maybe just \ncertain classes or occupations) were wired into some kind of always-on \ntelepathic internet. They did not need to use normal speech to \ncommunicate, and the system was also used for control: the family of \nthe Monarch danced or stalked through their dreams. When they were \nplaced in the Whorl, brain operations were needed to remove the \napparatus (whether that consisted of modified brain tissue or \nelectronics we are not told) associated with this internet, and to \nreduce their mental dependence on the rulers. The latter was not \npossible to completely achieve - and thus came about the eventual \npolitical/religious structure of the Whorl - but the surgeons did “as \nmuch as they dared”. Brain centres associated with speech processing \nmay have also needed to be revamped, or it may be that the ability to \nspeak “to move my lips and my tongue... while I make this noise in my \nthroat” was present anyway, though unused.\nSo Typhon’s psychic domination of his people was technologically \nmediated, in the end. Of course, Wolfe probably hadn’t decided on any \nof that when he wrote BotNS, and for all we know he may have leaned \nthe other way at that time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, it's not that the distinction between technologies is small. It's \nthat the distinction between forms of matter is small, so that putting \non an electromechanical helmet to intensify brain-controlling \nthought-waves generated by mutated brain tissues to rule the galaxy is \nsimply part of the fabric of what is possible (in pulp SF).\n\nI wonder again if there is a particular model for Wolfe in describing \nTyphonic society, there being so many models to choose from. But I'm \ninclined to think \"as much as they dared\" points to a removal of tissue, \nnot removal of a kind of set-top cable box for the brain. The story that \nLemur tried to limit Mucor's power through surgery but failed supports \nthis idea, since an implant could simply be removed. In this theory, \nperhaps humans developed their brains on their own through exposure to \nmental commands, or evolution (Mucor may not be all that unique).\n\nIt's almost as though Wolfe posits, as a sort of philosophical joke, a \nhuman gene for submission to kings that corresponds to a vulnerability \nto imperious commands. Remove it and we think for ourselves. There is a \nparallel between the \"words-of-power\" Severian uses on susceptible \nmachines at the Citadel as Autarch and the \"mental speech\" of Typhonic \nsociety that turns humans into tools. (Decuman's magic, too?) How much \nis really meant to correspond between New and Long Sun?---but you do \nhave to wonder about the innateness question. Were people made more \nvulnerable, or their rulers more powerful? My money is on Typhon's \nuniqueness. OTOH, once you consider the central roles of his children, \nand the way Mainframe weakly replicates their ability to abuse the \nMameltas that they had on Urth, I can certainly see it the other way.\n\nVariability in psionic power could be a test of this. Do any of the \nMainframe gods show greater or lesser power? Did they on Urth? Such \nvariability might indicate variable inheritance of an inherited trait \nfor mind control. Lack of variability suggests standard \nelectromechanical enhancement." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E985990.5020700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T15:47:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 10:51 AM, larry miller wrote:\nDoes anyone think this telepathic-internet might be connected with\nCyriacas story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The thinking machines? Yes, they seem to run together as a plausible \nhistory." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E985A78.1050902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T15:51:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<8E6D1B3CDF0B49039DDFFD1D3852B7E2@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 10:54 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n\n*> *\nPositing that Typhon's labs could insert nanorobots into embryos doesn't\n*> *\ntell us what to do with the \"carefully controlled matings\" remark.\nPerhaps both are needed for optimal performance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd only comment that at some point what might be complementary \ntechnologies become redundant technologies, and a story becomes \ninefficient and chokes on its own, er, waste." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really, I agree that genetic engineering is the most obvious \ntechnological way to go in producing the desired effects, at least \nwith our current understanding. I’m willing to assume that that \n(probably combined with carefully controlled matings) was probably \nwhat was done. But I don’t think we know for sure, and if there was \nsome special reason to believe it was nanobots instead I’d happily \ncountenance it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The telepathic internet described by Mamelta, after all, doesn’t seem \nlike it was necessarily implemented by genetic engineering. It might \nhave been, although that means Typhon would have had to wait two \ndecades to set it up, or else employed surgical modification or other \nmethods for the first generation, switching to genetic engineering later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Typhonic \"mindernet\" does seem like a key, but cryptic, phenomenon \nlinking Mount Typhon to Mucor." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9860E8.8020105@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:18:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318605413.57645.YahooMailNeo@web114714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 10:16 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nSteven Brust apparently says he got his method from Wolfe: it's \"And now, I'm going to tell you something really cool.\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=hHbWswMuvOgC&pg=PA397\n\nDoes anyone know what the source of that might be?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "King said it in DANSE MACABRE, about 1981." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:27:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9860E8.8020105@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: It might be churlish of me to disagree when you're \nbeing so agreeable, but you've put your finger on the difference between \nour styles of interpretation. None of the hypotheses gives me that \"click\" \nsense, and I see no reason to go with one in particular. The best answer for \nme is to accept that we don't know," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds like we agree! :-) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<543CC319470F4A6FB4920E246DA4B5D0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:49:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E985943.3030203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 8:53 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I think we can all agree that Typhon does have great force of \npersonality and will to power. This is the essential thing about him. \nTo fulfil his drive to conquer he uses the things and people about \nhim, and any tools available to him. He uses armies, he uses \ndatabases. He uses the power to command that by way of propaganda and \nyears of power have been identified with his face in the mind of the \npopulace — hence the whole head transplant. If he has innate psychic \npowers he uses them too, but they are no more significant than the \nstrength of his hands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Significant in what sense?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Significant to our interpretation of the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I ruled worlds with all those tools you list, and then you found out \nI was psionic (without using a psionic helmet), would that not strike \nyou as significant?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not really, if psychic powers are reasonably common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What if I boasted of these powers?\nWhat if I claimed (or hinted at) them but had none?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see evidence that Typhon did either of those things.\n\nHe does have strong arms and hands, strong enough to dangle Severian over a cliff. But then again, he took those from Piaton. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All these hypotheticals are situations in which the \"significance\" of \npsionic powers TO THE STORY is quite high. Wolfe has made choices---the \nchoices are significant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see it. When did he claim to have psychic powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So Typhon’s psychic domination of his people was technologically \nmediated, in the end. Of course, Wolfe probably hadn’t decided on any \nof that when he wrote BotNS, and for all we know he may have leaned \nthe other way at that time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, it's not that the distinction between technologies is small. It's \nthat the distinction between forms of matter is small, so that putting \non an electromechanical helmet to intensify brain-controlling \nthought-waves generated by mutated brain tissues to rule the galaxy is \nsimply part of the fabric of what is possible (in pulp SF)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But again, that’s not really what Typhon did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder again if there is a particular model for Wolfe in describing \nTyphonic society, there being so many models to choose from. But I'm \ninclined to think \"as much as they dared\" points to a removal of tissue, \nnot removal of a kind of set-top cable box for the brain. The story that \nLemur tried to limit Mucor's power through surgery but failed supports \nthis idea, since an implant could simply be removed. In this theory, \nperhaps humans developed their brains on their own through exposure to \nmental commands, or evolution (Mucor may not be all that unique)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember, Typhon’s people had spent their lives living in this system, and it had become deeply ingrained, producing engrams in the ordinary parts of the brain. Typhon’s surgeons would have walked a narrow line trying to erase as much as possible of these memories without damaging intelligence or other functions. Removing the internet apparatus would have been only part of the job — perhaps the easiest part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's almost as though Wolfe posits, as a sort of philosophical joke, a \nhuman gene for submission to kings that corresponds to a vulnerability \nto imperious commands. Remove it and we think for ourselves. There is a \nparallel between the \"words-of-power\" Severian uses on susceptible \nmachines at the Citadel as Autarch and the \"mental speech\" of Typhonic \nsociety that turns humans into tools. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think the people in Typhon’s society are tools any more than people in any tightly controlled society are tools. Of course the mechanisms of control used by Typhon were more sophisticated than those available today, but perhaps some societies have been even more tightly controlled, using more brutal methods. [And one must also think of the Ascians: probably many of us would prefer to live in Typhon’s Urth rather than in Ascia.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Decuman's magic, too?) How much \nis really meant to correspond between New and Long Sun?---but you do \nhave to wonder about the innateness question. Were people made more \nvulnerable, or their rulers more powerful? My money is on Typhon's \nuniqueness. OTOH, once you consider the central roles of his children, \nand the way Mainframe weakly replicates their ability to abuse the \nMameltas that they had on Urth, I can certainly see it the other way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon *was* powerful and unique, but it was not any psychic powers he had that made him so. Or so I think. Once he ruled Urth, he imposed his will by a variety of means, but I doubt whether innate mind control abilities were part of it.\n\n[I am reminded of the psychic vampires in Dan Simmons? _Carrion Comfort_, the most powerful of whom rarely used his mind control powers except for amusement, surrounded as he was by minions eager to do his bidding.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Variability in psionic power could be a test of this. Do any of the \nMainframe gods show greater or lesser power? Did they on Urth? Such \nvariability might indicate variable inheritance of an inherited trait \nfor mind control. Lack of variability suggests standard \nelectromechanical enhancement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see much in the way of variability, except maybe for Tartarus, who is atypical anyway by virtue of his blindness.\n\nEchidna is (presumably) no blood relation of Typhon, yet her digitised personality has similar powers. And anyway, of course, the Mainframe Gods no longer have organic bodies, so it is to be assumed that the same technological systems are used by all of them. We are told, I think, that the process involves pulses of light transmitted by the Sacred Windows.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9750ACF201584088ABAB8EE093B3940E@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:53:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some think the monarch who planned to destroy all human \nbooks/knowledge was Typhon but I dunno. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing Typhon does or says indicates that he would contemplate such an act.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T17:39:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<543CC319470F4A6FB4920E246DA4B5D0@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Jesus existed in the universe of Urth — Silk has a vision of \nhim entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this has been discussed in the past. That vision does seem to be of\na Jesus-like figure. But severian has been described (by Wolfe) as a Christ-\nlike figure and we can be pretty sure he is not Christ.\n \nConversely, even if the figure Silk sees in the vision happened to be named\nJesus (or Yeshua or Joshua) I don't think he is meant to be Jesus Christ, The \nSaviour of Humanity. Humanity on Urth/Whorl is still plagued by all the stuff \nEarth's humanity was plagued with before Jesus and even the stuff before the \nFlood. Things like false (but real) gods, monsters, demonic possession, etc.\n \nIf the Jesus that Silk sees was Jesus Christ, it would mean his salvation was\nonly temporary and faded. Doesn't seem like a very Christian concept to me, but\nI dunno. Anyway, Urth's humanity is plagued by a lot of problems with no hope \nfor salvation except for a New Sun that might come someday. (and as has been\nmentioned in the past, it is part of Earth's God's covenant that he wouldn't\never use a Flood again on humanity)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Echidna is (presumably) no blood relation of Typhon, yet her \ndigitised personality has similar powers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMythological Echidna was Typhon's sister as well as his mate. I think there \nwas a purpose in naming her this way. Part of it was surely that Typhon and\nEchidna are known as the \"mother and father of all monsters\". But wny not\nmake their sibling relationship part of it also. Pagan ruling houses were well\nknown to use sibling matings to solidify dynasties.\n \nEven if there were no evidence of genetically similar powers, I would think\nit more likely that Echidna was Typhon's sister than that she wasn't. The \nassumption of outbreeding and marriage based on love is a modern prejudice. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9F5FD06354C046CCB4960035952470A5@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:25:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Jesus existed in the universe of Urth — Silk has a vision of \nhim entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this has been discussed in the past. That vision does seem to be of\na Jesus-like figure. But severian has been described (by Wolfe) as a Christ-\nlike figure and we can be pretty sure he is not Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, Wolfe said Severian was “a Christian figure”. But in any case, Silk’s vision was not of Severian but was a pretty clear reference to Jesus on Palm Sunday. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Conversely, even if the figure Silk sees in the vision happened to be named\nJesus (or Yeshua or Joshua) I don't think he is meant to be Jesus Christ, The \nSaviour of Humanity. Humanity on Urth/Whorl is still plagued by all the stuff \nEarth's humanity was plagued with before Jesus and even the stuff before the \nFlood. Things like false (but real) gods, monsters, demonic possession, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The same is true of our own Earth. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the Jesus that Silk sees was Jesus Christ, it would mean his salvation was\nonly temporary and faded. Doesn't seem like a very Christian concept to me, but\nI dunno. Anyway, Urth's humanity is plagued by a lot of problems with no hope \nfor salvation except for a New Sun that might come someday. (and as has been\nmentioned in the past, it is part of Earth's God's covenant that he wouldn't\never use a Flood again on humanity)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Urth *is* saved, resurrected even. As for the personal salvation of its inhabitants, that is a matter between them and what is called in Severian’s time the Increate. Regarding the Flood, Wolfe is a Catholic, and probably doesn’t fret about Biblical literalism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Echidna is (presumably) no blood relation of Typhon, yet her \ndigitised personality has similar powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mythological Echidna was Typhon's sister as well as his mate. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That depends on which of a dozen origin stories you select. Besides, they were monsters, not people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there \nwas a purpose in naming her this way. Part of it was surely that Typhon and\nEchidna are known as the \"mother and father of all monsters\". But wny not\nmake their sibling relationship part of it also. Pagan ruling houses were well\nknown to use sibling matings to solidify dynasties." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One might note in this regard that Typhon’s offspring were all in some way defective. On the other hand, Typhon would have known of the dangers of inbreeding, and it also seems that he didn’t much like the idea of genetically engineering his offspring. So it would be remarkable if he married his sister. Duke Rigoglio doesn’t mention anything unusual about his marriage — you’d think such a thing would be remarked upon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even if there were no evidence of genetically similar powers, I would think\nit more likely that Echidna was Typhon's sister than that she wasn't. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no evidence whatsoever of genetically similar powers. We are told nothing about any genetically endowed powers Echidna (or whatever her real name was) may have had. We know her digitised personality can invoke the personality transfer mechanisms installed in the Sacred Windows, but so can all the others except maybe Tartarus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The assumption of outbreeding and marriage based on love is a modern prejudice. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Outbreeding has notable advantages that societies ignore at their peril. As for love, it’s not unlikely that Typhon married into some powerful family rather than for love; he had concubines as well, after all. Or perhaps Echidna was necessary to him in some other way. But there’s no particular evidence of incest that I can see.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E987F69.1070203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:28:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<543CC319470F4A6FB4920E246DA4B5D0@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 12:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/14/2011 8:53 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But I think we can all agree that Typhon does have great force of\npersonality and will to power. This is the essential thing about him.\nTo fulfil his drive to conquer he uses the things and people about\nhim, and any tools available to him. He uses armies, he uses\ndatabases. He uses the power to command that by way of propaganda and\nyears of power have been identified with his face in the mind of the\npopulace — hence the whole head transplant. If he has innate psychic\npowers he uses them too, but they are no more significant than the\nstrength of his hands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Significant in what sense?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Significant to our interpretation of the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, since that is in fact the context of our discussion, no more \nsignificant in any way whatsoever. No conditions at all and regardless \nof any talk of enhanced embryos who have psionic powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I ruled worlds with all those tools you list, and then you found out\nI was psionic (without using a psionic helmet), would that not strike\nyou as significant?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not really, if psychic powers are reasonably common." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, emphatically yes (because they are not)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What if I boasted of these powers?\nWhat if I claimed (or hinted at) them but had none?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t see evidence that Typhon did either of those things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I sent my thought to far places.\" Jeff says this may be bombast. \nHowever, in the light of what has been mentioned about Urth society \nbefore the Whorl, Typhon may have been speaking as he would if his \nsociety still existed, which would put a different spin on it. We might \nsay, \"I googled it and found 7637542 hits.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He does have strong arms and hands, strong enough to dangle Severian \nover a cliff. But then again, he took those from Piaton." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which means he does not have them at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All these hypotheticals are situations in which the \"significance\" of\npsionic powers TO THE STORY is quite high. Wolfe has made choices---the\nchoices are significant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t see it. When did he claim to have psychic powers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought you said there was no difference! But again: \"I sent my \nthought to far places.\" Why, do you think, he said that? Why did Wolfe \nhave him say that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So Typhon’s psychic domination of his people was technologically\nmediated, in the end. Of course, Wolfe probably hadn’t decided on any\nof that when he wrote BotNS, and for all we know he may have leaned\nthe other way at that time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Again, it's not that the distinction between technologies is small. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's\nthat the distinction between forms of matter is small, so that putting\non an electromechanical helmet to intensify brain-controlling\nthought-waves generated by mutated brain tissues to rule the galaxy is\nsimply part of the fabric of what is possible (in pulp SF).\nBut again, that’s not really what Typhon did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may be missing my point. That comment was definitely not under the \nheading \"Things Typhon Did.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder again if there is a particular model for Wolfe in describing\nTyphonic society, there being so many models to choose from. But I'm\ninclined to think \"as much as they dared\" points to a removal of \ntissue,\nnot removal of a kind of set-top cable box for the brain. The story \nthat\nLemur tried to limit Mucor's power through surgery but failed supports\nthis idea, since an implant could simply be removed. In this theory,\nperhaps humans developed their brains on their own through exposure to\nmental commands, or evolution (Mucor may not be all that unique)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember, Typhon’s people had spent their lives living in this system, \nand it had become deeply ingrained, producing engrams in the ordinary \nparts of the brain. Typhon’s surgeons would have walked a narrow line \ntrying to erase as much as possible of these memories without damaging \nintelligence or other functions. Removing the internet apparatus would \nhave been only part of the job — perhaps the easiest part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, then: how can the internet device be \"significant to our \ninterpretation of the story.\"? It presents no challenges, is completely \nboring, and is never mentioned.\n\nI propose that the food Typhon feeds Severian is a ham sandwich. Do you \nconcur?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's almost as though Wolfe posits, as a sort of philosophical joke, a\nhuman gene for submission to kings that corresponds to a vulnerability\nto imperious commands. Remove it and we think for ourselves. There is a\nparallel between the \"words-of-power\" Severian uses on susceptible\nmachines at the Citadel as Autarch and the \"mental speech\" of Typhonic\nsociety that turns humans into tools." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t think the people in Typhon’s society are tools any more than \npeople in any tightly controlled society are tools." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not a part of my argument. However, that raises a point: which came \nfirst? Were people forced to have implants, or did they have them \nalready and Typhon took advantage? When the Beast comes, will he have a \nWeb site?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course the mechanisms of control used by Typhon were more \nsophisticated than those available today, but perhaps some societies \nhave been even more tightly controlled, using more brutal methods. \n[And one must also think of the Ascians: probably many of us would \nprefer to live in Typhon’s Urth rather than in Ascia.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's all the same theme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Decuman's magic, too?) How much\nis really meant to correspond between New and Long Sun?---but you do\nhave to wonder about the innateness question. Were people made more\nvulnerable, or their rulers more powerful? My money is on Typhon's\nuniqueness. OTOH, once you consider the central roles of his children,\nand the way Mainframe weakly replicates their ability to abuse the\nMameltas that they had on Urth, I can certainly see it the other way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon *was* powerful and unique, but it was not any psychic powers he \nhad that made him so. Or so I think. Once he ruled Urth, he imposed \nhis will by a variety of means, but I doubt whether innate mind \ncontrol abilities were part of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But you have no particular reason to say this, except that you dismiss \nit, and therefore you doubt it, and therefore you dismiss it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[I am reminded of the psychic vampires in Dan Simmons? _Carrion \nComfort_, the most powerful of whom rarely used his mind control \npowers except for amusement, surrounded as he was by minions eager to \ndo his bidding.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds painfully pointless. Reminds me of a recent movie about a vampire \nscientist in a society of vampires. I look forward to the sequel, about \na vampire tax attorney in a society of vampires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Variability in psionic power could be a test of this. Do any of the\nMainframe gods show greater or lesser power? Did they on Urth? Such\nvariability might indicate variable inheritance of an inherited trait\nfor mind control. Lack of variability suggests standard\nelectromechanical enhancement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t see much in the way of variability, except maybe for Tartarus, \nwho is atypical anyway by virtue of his blindness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, but I'd be curious if anyone else notices any." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Echidna is (presumably) no blood relation of Typhon, yet her digitised \npersonality has similar powers. And anyway, of course, the Mainframe \nGods no longer have organic bodies, so it is to be assumed that the \nsame technological systems are used by all of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E987FDA.40908@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:30:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<9750ACF201584088ABAB8EE093B3940E@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 12:53 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some think the monarch who planned to destroy all human\nbooks/knowledge was Typhon but I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nothing Typhon does or says indicates that he would contemplate such \nan act.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, but if you think about the character and his motivations and mode of \noperation, it fits.\n\nOf course, one could just as well argue that it is a conflation of \nHitler's Germany and the burning of Library of Alexandria." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318617278.82480.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:34:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<9F5FD06354C046CCB4960035952470A5@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 10/14/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n\nBut Urth *is* saved, resurrected even. As for the personal salvation of its inhabitants, that is a matter between them and what is called in Severian’s time the Increate. Regarding the Flood, Wolfe is a Catholic, and probably doesn’t fret about Biblical literalism.\n\n\n\nGerry, we finally agree completely, completely, completely." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E98825A.7070409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:41:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<9F5FD06354C046CCB4960035952470A5@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 2:25 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Echidna is (presumably) no blood relation of Typhon, \nyet her\ndigitised personality has similar powers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mythological Echidna was Typhon's sister as well as his mate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That depends on which of a dozen origin stories you select. Besides, \nthey were monsters, not people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there\nwas a purpose in naming her this way. Part of it was surely that \nTyphon and\nEchidna are known as the \"mother and father of all monsters\". But \nwny not\nmake their sibling relationship part of it also. Pagan ruling houses \nwere well\nknown to use sibling matings to solidify dynasties." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One might note in this regard that Typhon’s offspring were all in some \nway defective." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, Typhon would have known of the dangers of \ninbreeding, and it also seems that he didn’t much like the idea of \ngenetically engineering his offspring." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you think this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So it would be remarkable if he married his sister. Duke Rigoglio \ndoesn’t mention anything unusual about his marriage — you’d think such \na thing would be remarked upon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "WE would. Would anyone on Urth? Anyway, perhaps there was some reason \nwhy Typhon might want to narrow the gene pool---I mean, marry his \nsister---even despite the (actually very small) risks ... racking my \nbrain ... can't think of any ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Even if there were no evidence of genetically similar powers, I \nwould think\nit more likely that Echidna was Typhon's sister than that she wasn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no evidence whatsoever of genetically similar powers. We are \ntold nothing about any genetically endowed powers Echidna (or whatever \nher real name was) may have had. We know her digitised personality can \ninvoke the personality transfer mechanisms installed in the Sacred \nWindows, but so can all the others except maybe Tartarus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The assumption of outbreeding and marriage based on love is a modern \nprejudice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Outbreeding has notable advantages that societies ignore at their \nperil. As for love, it’s not unlikely that Typhon married into some \npowerful family rather than for love; he had concubines as well, after \nall. Or perhaps Echidna was necessary to him in some other way. But \nthere’s no particular evidence of incest that I can see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right---Typhon was not wearing his INCEST IS BEST T-shirt when he \nmet Severian." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:43:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E98825A.7070409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some think the monarch who planned to destroy all human\nbooks/knowledge was Typhon but I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nothing Typhon does or says indicates that he would contemplate such an act." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The monarch repented, and everything we see of Typhon, both on Urth\nand on the Whorl, would have come after that repentance. I think it's\nclear that this monarch is Typhon, since in _Urth_ there is a specific\nreference to him as having brought the books to to the Citadel.\n\nIt remains true, though, that the machine-run society seems to belong\nto a much earlier period, the First Empire. Such machines, Malrubius\ntells us, still exist, but they are clearly not commonplace." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:02:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (urth] Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E987FDA.40908@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 12:53 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some think the monarch who planned to destroy all human\nbooks/knowledge was Typhon but I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nothing Typhon does or says indicates that he would contemplate such \nan act." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, but if you think about the character and his motivations and mode of \noperation, it fits." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. Typhon valued technology and knowledge. He wanted to rule a hi-tech interstellar empire, for which purposes an educated citizenry (for example, Mamelta) is useful. What makes you think he wanted to destroy it?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9887FA.9020202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:05:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (urth] Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 3:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/14/2011 12:53 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Some think the monarch who planned to destroy all human\nbooks/knowledge was Typhon but I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Nothing Typhon does or says indicates that he would contemplate such\nan act." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, but if you think about the character and his motivations and \nmode of\noperation, it fits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree. Typhon valued technology and knowledge. He wanted to \nrule a hi-tech interstellar empire, for which purposes an educated \ncitizenry (for example, Mamelta) is useful. What makes you think he \nwanted to destroy it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, his people didn't even know how to speak out loud. Why would he \nwant them to read?\n\nAn emperor wants to keep knowledge to himself and his servants." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:07:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9887FA.9020202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of the three sections of the Sun series I am least familiar with Long Sun. But given the\nthemes I think Wolfe established in 5HoC, I tend to gravitate toward genetics and cloning\nas explanations which tie into the larger picture Wolfe is trying to paint. I get the\nimpression Wolfe is trying to make philosophical points with all that he writes, though I'm\nnot sure all his fans would agree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure if I'm disagreeing with you here, but it seems to me that\none philosophical point that Wolfe is making turns on the importance\nof the mind, and how our identity depends on that. His recent\nstatement that Typhon really is on the Whorl - not just 'in a way'\nbears this out. _Long Sun_ and _Short Sun_ are full of the idea of the\nsame mind being realised in different substrates, human, alien and\nartificial. Pas is Typhon, Marble is Rose, Jahlee is Chenille (or\nsomeone), the Rajan is Horn, all without any genetic connection. So\nfor this reason I am doubtful about cloning as a clue to the various\nidentities suggested in the text. (You may agree, since you refer to\n'the dead end nature of cloning'. But I don't think Silk is a dead\nend.)\n\nGenetics clearly enters into what is happening, with the embryos being\nspecially bred, and I'm not averse to the thought that there are\nhidden family connections of various kinds. But that seems to me to be\nsecondary. There's something similar in _New Sun_, where there are\ncertainly hidden family connections; Dorcas is Severian's grandmother,\nMerryn is his sister, Casdoe may well be his cousin, and knowing how\nWolfe works, ther are very likely other hidden relations we haven't\nspotted. I think these probably do illustrate a theme, of threads\nbeing drawn together to produce someone suitable to be a New Sun: it's\ninteresting how Severian's ancestry seems to include most of the\nvarious classes of the Commonwealth. But it doesn't seem to me this is\ncentral to the story." } ] }, { "message_id": "<470F5296ED694E0CAEF01A845C9CCF22@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T22:11:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E987F69.1070203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 12:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If I ruled worlds with all those tools you list, and then you found out\nI was psionic (without using a psionic helmet), would that not strike\nyou as significant?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not really, if psychic powers are reasonably common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, emphatically yes (because they are not)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren’t they? Decuman seems to have them. So does Mucor. The Cumaean has. In Typhon’s time, there was a telepathic internet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What if I boasted of these powers?\nWhat if I claimed (or hinted at) them but had none?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t see evidence that Typhon did either of those things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I sent my thought to far places.\" Jeff says this may be bombast. \nHowever, in the light of what has been mentioned about Urth society \nbefore the Whorl, Typhon may have been speaking as he would if his \nsociety still existed, which would put a different spin on it. We might \nsay, \"I googled it and found 7637542 hits.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s not bombast: what Typhon says is true, there are powers in the sea who would rule. Whatever he did to find out, he did something and it worked. “I sent my thoughts into far places” is how he explains it to Severian. Probably he used some sort of telepresence system to access the databases, military systems or whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He does have strong arms and hands, strong enough to dangle Severian \nover a cliff. But then again, he took those from Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which means he does not have them at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure he has them!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "All these hypotheticals are situations in which the \"significance\" of\npsionic powers TO THE STORY is quite high. Wolfe has made choices---the\nchoices are significant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t see it. When did he claim to have psychic powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought you said there was no difference! But again: \"I sent my \nthought to far places.\" Why, do you think, he said that? Why did Wolfe \nhave him say that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He’s talking about telepresence, virtualities? Or maybe just alluding to looking at satellite images etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, then: how can the internet device be \"significant to our \ninterpretation of the story.\"? It presents no challenges, is completely \nboring, and is never mentioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When did I say it was significant? It adds colour to our understanding of life in Typhon’s empire, just as elsewhere we learn a little about life in Ascia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I propose that the food Typhon feeds Severian is a ham sandwich. Do you \nconcur?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A kolpochoerus sandwich is another example of something that is perfectly plausible,,. but for wich we have no evidence one way or the other. All we know is he gave Severian food of some sort. (If I had to guess, I’d say something like the ready meals eaten by Silk and Mamelta on the lander.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t think the people in Typhon’s society are tools any more than \npeople in any tightly controlled society are tools." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not a part of my argument. However, that raises a point: which came \nfirst? Were people forced to have implants, or did they have them \nalready and Typhon took advantage? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who knows? It would have been convenient for Typhon if they systems were already in use, of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon *was* powerful and unique, but it was not any psychic powers he \nhad that made him so. Or so I think. Once he ruled Urth, he imposed \nhis will by a variety of means, but I doubt whether innate mind \ncontrol abilities were part of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But you have no particular reason to say this, except that you dismiss \nit, and therefore you doubt it, and therefore you dismiss it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Direct person to person mind control is a lousy way to rule an empire containing billions of subjects. We hear lots about the methods actually used by Typhon, and they are military, technological, and personality based." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[I am reminded of the psychic vampires in Dan Simmons? _Carrion \nComfort_, the most powerful of whom rarely used his mind control \npowers except for amusement, surrounded as he was by minions eager to \ndo his bidding.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sounds painfully pointless. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was a point to it, and it’s similar to the point about Typhon.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318630433.23433.YahooMailNeo@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T22:13:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9860E8.8020105@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nOn 10/14/2011 10:16 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Steven Brust apparently says he got his method from Wolfe: it's \"And now, I'm going to tell you something really cool.\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=hHbWswMuvOgC&pg=PA397\n\nDoes anyone know what the source of that might be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "King said it in DANSE MACABRE, about 1981." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks!? I hope Brust didn't mix Wolfe up with King. I'd rather think Wolfe said something like that too. (But maybe my response is more appropriate to fiction than to reality.)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<81A5493C6A81499482FF6184D2B39A21@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T22:15:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E98825A.7070409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand, Typhon would have known of the dangers of \ninbreeding, and it also seems that he didn’t much like the idea of \ngenetically engineering his offspring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you think this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because he had access to the technology, and he didn’t use it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So it would be remarkable if he married his sister. Duke Rigoglio \ndoesn’t mention anything unusual about his marriage — you’d think such \na thing would be remarked upon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "WE would. Would anyone on Urth? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Severian’s time, people certainly would. Of course we don;t know anything about social norms regarding incest in Typhon’s time, but those are thin grounds for assuming they were unusual. Rigoglio does not marvel at the perverse tendency of those on Blue to marry strangers.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E98C5A8.9030400@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T23:28:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<470F5296ED694E0CAEF01A845C9CCF22@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 6:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/14/2011 12:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If I ruled worlds with all those tools you list, and then you \nfound out\nI was psionic (without using a psionic helmet), would that not \nstrike\nyou as significant?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not really, if psychic powers are reasonably common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, emphatically yes (because they are not)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aren’t they? Decuman seems to have them. So does Mucor. The Cumaean \nhas. In Typhon’s time, there was a telepathic internet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my example, I am not a character living in Briah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What if I boasted of these powers?\nWhat if I claimed (or hinted at) them but had none?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don’t see evidence that Typhon did either of those things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I sent my thought to far places.\" Jeff says this may be bombast.\nHowever, in the light of what has been mentioned about Urth society\nbefore the Whorl, Typhon may have been speaking as he would if his\nsociety still existed, which would put a different spin on it. We might\nsay, \"I googled it and found 7637542 hits.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It’s not bombast: what Typhon says is true, there are powers in the \nsea who would rule. Whatever he did to find out, he did something and \nit worked. “I sent my thoughts into far places” is how he explains it \nto Severian. Probably he used some sort of telepresence system to \naccess the databases, military systems or whatever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We've been through this. I agree that IF the \"telnet\" (still working on \nwhat to call it) survives, then the link between thought and data is \nready-made." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He does have strong arms and hands, strong enough to dangle Severian\nover a cliff. But then again, he took those from Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which means he does not have them at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure he has them!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he does not. Rather, he has Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "All these hypotheticals are situations in which the \n\"significance\" of\npsionic powers TO THE STORY is quite high. Wolfe has made \nchoices---the\nchoices are significant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don’t see it. When did he claim to have psychic powers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought you said there was no difference! But again: \"I sent my\nthought to far places.\" Why, do you think, he said that? Why did Wolfe\nhave him say that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He’s talking about telepresence, virtualities? Or maybe just alluding \nto looking at satellite images etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But why did he say it LIKE THAT?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So, then: how can the internet device be \"significant to our\ninterpretation of the story.\"? It presents no challenges, is completely\nboring, and is never mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When did I say it was significant?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You didn't. It isn't. Is it possible to make a point to you that is not \ncompletely literal?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It adds colour to our understanding of life in Typhon’s empire, just \nas elsewhere we learn a little about life in Ascia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am sure that is why Wolfe wrote the series: to provide color and \ninformation, like a white writer in the South after the Civil War." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I propose that the food Typhon feeds Severian is a ham sandwich. Do you\nconcur?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A kolpochoerus sandwich is another example of something that is \nperfectly plausible,,. but for wich we have no evidence one way or the \nother. All we know is he gave Severian food of some sort. (If I had to \nguess, I’d say something like the ready meals eaten by Silk and \nMamelta on the lander.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you a machine?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don’t think the people in Typhon’s society are tools any more than\npeople in any tightly controlled society are tools." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not a part of my argument. However, that raises a point: which came\nfirst? Were people forced to have implants, or did they have them\nalready and Typhon took advantage?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who knows? It would have been convenient for Typhon if they systems \nwere already in use, of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. Plot convenience is an author's primary concern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Typhon *was* powerful and unique, but it was not any psychic \npowers he\nhad that made him so. Or so I think. Once he ruled Urth, he imposed\nhis will by a variety of means, but I doubt whether innate mind\ncontrol abilities were part of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But you have no particular reason to say this, except that you dismiss\nit, and therefore you doubt it, and therefore you dismiss it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Direct person to person mind control is a lousy way to rule an empire \ncontaining billions of subjects. We hear lots about the methods \nactually used by Typhon, and they are military, technological, and \npersonality based." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An empire must have many redundant systems. Tree, meet bark.\n\nAre you really going to spend 5 more days trying to prove a negative you \ncan't prove?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T23:55:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E98C5A8.9030400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, October 14, 2011 18:28, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/14/2011 6:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I propose that the food Typhon feeds Severian is a ham sandwich. Do\nyou\nconcur?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A kolpochoerus sandwich is another example of something that is\nperfectly plausible,,. but for wich we have no evidence one way or the\nother. All we know is he gave Severian food of some sort. (If I had to\nguess, I’d say something like the ready meals eaten by Silk and\nMamelta on the lander.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you a machine?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When does Typhon give him any food? Doesn't he die before he gets around\nto it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E98D2D0.8080100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-15T00:24:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<81A5493C6A81499482FF6184D2B39A21@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 6:15 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn the other hand, Typhon would have known of the dangers of\ninbreeding, and it also seems that he didn’t much like the idea of\ngenetically engineering his offspring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you think this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because he had access to the technology, and he didn’t use it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do you know this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So it would be remarkable if he married his sister. Duke Rigoglio\ndoesn’t mention anything unusual about his marriage — you’d think \nsuch\na thing would be remarked upon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "WE would. Would anyone on Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Severian’s time, people certainly would." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do you know?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course we don;t know anything about social norms regarding incest \nin Typhon’s time, but those are thin grounds for assuming they were \nunusual." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Who is to say what's unusual?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rigoglio does not marvel at the perverse tendency of those on Blue to \nmarry strangers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would he?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E98D359.9000603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-15T00:27:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 7:55 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Fri, October 14, 2011 18:28, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/14/2011 6:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I propose that the food Typhon feeds Severian is a ham sandwich. Do\nyou\nconcur?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A kolpochoerus sandwich is another example of something that is\nperfectly plausible,,. but for wich we have no evidence one way or the\nother. All we know is he gave Severian food of some sort. (If I had to\nguess, I’d say something like the ready meals eaten by Silk and\nMamelta on the lander.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you a machine?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When does Typhon give him any food? Doesn't he die before he gets around\nto it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Before he makes him kneel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E98DA40.5050105@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T00:56:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318630433.23433.YahooMailNeo@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/14/2011 5:13 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson\nOn 10/14/2011 10:16 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Steven Brust apparently says he got his method from Wolfe: it's \"And now, I'm going to tell you something really cool.\"\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=hHbWswMuvOgC&pg=PA397\n\nDoes anyone know what the source of that might be?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "King said it in DANSE MACABRE, about 1981." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks! I hope Brust didn't mix Wolfe up with King. I'd rather think Wolfe said something like that too. (But maybe my response is more appropriate to fiction than to reality.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not an unusual sentiment among speculative fiction writers and \npublishers, and it is paraphrased many times over the decades, even in \ngenre magazine titles like TALES TO ASTONISH and THRILLING WONDER STORIES." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E98DCA9.7060600@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T01:06:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E98D359.9000603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 7:27 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/14/2011 7:55 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, October 14, 2011 18:28, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/14/2011 6:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I propose that the food Typhon feeds Severian is a ham sandwich. Do\nyou\nconcur?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "A kolpochoerus sandwich is another example of something that is\nperfectly plausible,,. but for wich we have no evidence one way or the\nother. All we know is he gave Severian food of some sort. (If I had to\nguess, I’d say something like the ready meals eaten by Silk and\nMamelta on the lander.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Are you a machine?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When does Typhon give him any food? Doesn't he die before he gets around\nto it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Before he makes him kneel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see where Severian sees the food in the translucent wall, but Typhon \nputs off opening it:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I filled my mouth again and swallowed. \"This is enough. Yes, I am very\nhungry.\"\n\n\"Good,\" he said, and turning away from the windows went to the wall at\none side of the chamber. When I neared it, I saw that it, at least, was\nnot (as I had thought) plain stone. Instead, it seemed a kind of\ncrystal, or thick, smoky glass; through it I could see loaves and many\nstrange dishes, as still and perfect as food in a painting.\n\n\"You have a talisman of power,\" Typhon told me. \"Now you must give it to\nme, so that we can open this cupboard.\"\n\n\"I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. Do you want my sword?\"\n\n\"I want the thing you wear at your neck,\" he said, and stretched out a\nhand for it. I stepped back. \"There is no power in it.\"\n\n\"Then you lose nothing. Give it to me.\" As Typhon spoke, Piaton's head\nmoved almost imperceptibly from side to side. \"It is only a curio,\" I\nsaid. \"Once I thought it had great power, but when I tried to revive a\nbeautiful woman who was dying, it had no effect, and yesterday it could\nnot restore the boy who traveled with me. How did you know of it?\"\n\n\"I was watching you, of course. I climbed high enough to see you well.\nWhen my ring killed the child and you went to him, I saw the sacred\nfire. You don't have to actually put it in my hand if you don't want\nto just do what I tell you.\"\n\n\"You could have warned us, then,\" I said. \"Why should I? At that time\nyou were nothing to me. Do you want to eat or not?\"\n\nI took out the gem. After all, Dorcas and Jonas had seen it, and I had\nheard the Pelerines had displayed it in a monstrance on great occasions.\nIt lay on my palm like a bit of blue glass, all fire gone.\n\nTyphon leaned over it curiously. \"Hardly impressive. Now kneel.\"\n\nI knelt." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and in the next chapter it is confirmed that he still hasn't eaten much \nlater:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hungered no longer, for hunger is a thing that passes if one does not\neat. Weakness came instead, bringing with it a pristine clarity of mind.\nThen, in the evening of the second day after I had climbed from the\npupil of the right eye, I came upon a shepherd's bothy, a sort of\nbeehive of stone, and found in it a cooking pot and a quantity of ground\ncorn." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T03:42:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E98DCA9.7060600@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: and in the next chapter it is confirmed that he still hasn't " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "eaten much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIIRC, I think his hunger gets no relief until he finds some corn in an\n\nabandoned shepherd's bothy. He leaves the Pelerine scarf as an attempt\n\nat repayment. This scene is rarely discussed but might have a lot of meaning.\n\n \n\nAnyway, so the water Severian drinks is melted snow and he never accepts the\n\nsatanicly offered food. Surely there is some significance to that. The story\n\nmay be about something greater than the battle between good and evil but \n\nwhen offered a choice, Severian seems most often to choose good. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E99032F.4010101@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T03:51:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 10:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: and in the next chapter it is confirmed that he still hasn't" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "eaten much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, you altered the quotation of my post to make it seem like I said \nthe opposite of what I originally wrote. This is NOT cool, and there is \nNO EXCUSE for a grown person to do it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5F180C688526498A9188FCEE7AFF5885@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T09:48:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (urth] Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9887FA.9020202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/14/2011 3:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI disagree. Typhon valued technology and knowledge. He wanted to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "rule a hi-tech interstellar empire, for which purposes an educated " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "citizenry (for example, Mamelta) is useful. What makes you think he " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wanted to destroy it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, his people didn't even know how to speak out loud. Why would he " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "want them to read?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mamelta and those like her didn’t speak out loud because they had an alternative that they found adequate (presumably the same is true of Apheta, Tzadkiel etc.) They were perfectly well able to communicate. Mamelta was trained as a computer technician, and that was only a part of her responsibilities. She did not appear ignorant on general subjects, although she had not been informed about anything to do with the Whorl (then again, she should not have had to spend more than a day or two there before embarking on a lander).\nWhether she reads we are not told, but she is knowledgeable about computers (and can repair them) and spacecraft and biology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An emperor wants to keep knowledge to himself and his servants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon’s servants were his subjects. He might have wanted to destroy the libraries of his enemies. There is no indication that he wanted to destroy those of his friends. Indeed, I don’t believe your generalisation about emperors anyway. Some emperors may. I don’t think it would be Typhon’s style.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T09:58:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote: >\nFrom: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some think the monarch who planned to destroy all human\nbooks/knowledge was Typhon but I dunno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nothing Typhon does or says indicates that he would contemplate such an act." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The monarch repented, and everything we see of Typhon, both on Urth\nand on the Whorl, would have come after that repentance. I think it's\nclear that this monarch is Typhon, since in _Urth_ there is a specific\nreference to him as having brought the books to to the Citadel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where does it say that?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T09:59:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E99032F.4010101@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 10:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: and in the next chapter it is confirmed that he still hasn't" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "eaten much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Lee, you altered the quotation of my post to make it seem like I said \nthe opposite of what I originally wrote. This is NOT cool, and there is \nNO EXCUSE for a grown person to do it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n \n\nSorry Jeff, but I don't know what you are talking about. I didn't alter your\n\nquotation and my post was clearly meant to agree with your assertion that Severian\n\ndid not get food from Typhon.\n\n \n\nOr perhaps I've lost my ability to understand the written word correctly and you\n\nwere arguing that Severian DID get food from Typhon? That is a possibility I am\n\nwilling to consider. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B578C20919E4C5FBE57642C250DBEC3@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T10:08:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E98C5A8.9030400@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 6:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/14/2011 12:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If I ruled worlds with all those tools you list, and then you \nfound out\nI was psionic (without using a psionic helmet), would that not \nstrike\nyou as significant?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Not really, if psychic powers are reasonably common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So, emphatically yes (because they are not)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aren’t they? Decuman seems to have them. So does Mucor. The Cumaean \nhas. In Typhon’s time, there was a telepathic internet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my example, I am not a character living in Briah." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then I don’t understand the point of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "He does have strong arms and hands, strong enough to dangle Severian\nover a cliff. But then again, he took those from Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Which means he does not have them at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure he has them!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, he does not. Rather, he has Piaton." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which includes Piaton’s hands. If all had gone well, Piaton’s head would soon have been dispensed with, and the distinction becomes even less meaningful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I thought you said there was no difference! But again: \"I sent my\nthought to far places.\" Why, do you think, he said that? Why did Wolfe> > > have him say that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He’s talking about telepresence, virtualities? Or maybe just alluding \nto looking at satellite images etc.\nBut why did he say it LIKE THAT?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What’s wrong with the way he said it? He thinks he’s talking to an oik who has never seen a TV." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It adds colour to our understanding of life in Typhon’s empire, just \nas elsewhere we learn a little about life in Ascia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am sure that is why Wolfe wrote the series: to provide color and \ninformation, like a white writer in the South after the Civil War." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don’t think that fleshing out such imaginary societies is part of the writer’s job?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I propose that the food Typhon feeds Severian is a ham sandwich. Do you\nconcur?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A kolpochoerus sandwich is another example of something that is \nperfectly plausible,,. but for wich we have no evidence one way or the \nother. All we know is he gave Severian food of some sort. (If I had to \nguess, I’d say something like the ready meals eaten by Silk and \nMamelta on the lander.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you a machine?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’m finding your responses increasingly hard to compute, that’s for sure.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3E2557E1A7594F7E83CE814C62CB6312@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T10:23:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E98D2D0.8080100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/14/2011 6:15 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn the other hand, Typhon would have known of the dangers of\ninbreeding, and it also seems that he didn’t much like the idea of\ngenetically engineering his offspring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do you think this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because he had access to the technology, and he didn’t use it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do you know this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely these things are obvious? We know he had the technology, because the Whorl is loaded with it. It seems obvious that a technology that can produce Mucor or a psychic internet can prevent, say, the blindness of Tartarus, who seems otherwise sound. So Typhon must have chosen not to use it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "So it would be remarkable if he married his sister. Duke Rigoglio\ndoesn’t mention anything unusual about his marriage — you’d think \nsuch\na thing would be remarked upon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "WE would. Would anyone on Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Severian’s time, people certainly would." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do you know?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "***************************************************\nWhen I re-entered the cell, Agilus was sitting cross-legged, his back propped by the wall. \"Don't ask me about Agia,\" be said. \"Everything you suspect is true--is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow, and she will wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted her to do it sooner. He couldn't have prevented her from seeing me, her brother. Now I will be gone, and she won't have even that to worry about.\"\n***************************************************\nClearly incest is not the norm in Severian’s time.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318674841.22684.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T10:34:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<3E2557E1A7594F7E83CE814C62CB6312@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sat, 10/15/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn the other hand, Typhon would have known of the dangers of\ninbreeding, and it also seems that he didn’t much like the idea of\ngenetically engineering his offspring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Gerry> > > Why do you think this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because he had access to the technology, and he didn’t use it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do you know this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely these things are obvious? We know he had the technology, because the Whorl is loaded with it. It seems obvious that a technology that can produce Mucor or a psychic internet can prevent, say, the blindness of Tartarus, who seems otherwise sound. So Typhon must have chosen not to use it.\n\n\n\nSigh. Putting your head on someone else and wanting a perfect child means to me that Typhon would have LOVED genetically getting the perfect heir, and somehow his technology either didn't foresee or couldn't predict Tartarus' blindness. He wants a more worthy son after all these failures, so he decides to get the perfect one. That's what he wants. I think Mucor and Typhon have \"natural\" psyhic powers (inherited but possibly augmented from normal homosapiens over time, not necessarily machine based at all; Wolfe believes in souls) I think its a mistake to dismiss the unscientific as naturally impossible in Wolfe. I would certianly engineer an heir if I would put my head on somebody else, but I would still want it to be my genetic material, even if tweaked to be the best of me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E996D80.6030501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-15T11:24:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (urth] Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<5F180C688526498A9188FCEE7AFF5885@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/15/2011 5:48 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/14/2011 3:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I disagree. Typhon valued technology and knowledge. He wanted to\n\nrule a hi-tech interstellar empire, for which purposes an educated\n\ncitizenry (for example, Mamelta) is useful. What makes you think he\n\nwanted to destroy it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, his people didn't even know how to speak out loud. Why would he" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "want them to read?\nMamelta and those like her didn’t speak out loud because they had an \nalternative that they found adequate (presumably the same is true of \nApheta, Tzadkiel etc.) They were perfectly well able to communicate. \nMamelta was trained as a computer technician, and that was only a part \nof her responsibilities. She did not appear ignorant on general \nsubjects, although she had not been informed about anything to do with \nthe Whorl (then again, she should not have had to spend more than a \nday or two there before embarking on a lander).\nWhether she reads we are not told, but she is knowledgeable about \ncomputers (and can repair them) and spacecraft and biology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All that means is that she was trained." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An emperor wants to keep knowledge to himself and his servants.\nTyphon’s servants were his subjects. He might have wanted to destroy \nthe libraries of his enemies. There is no indication that he wanted to \ndestroy those of his friends. Indeed, I don’t believe your \ngeneralisation about emperors anyway. Some emperors may. I don’t think \nit would be Typhon’s style." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You said Typhon used all tools available to him to seize and to hold power." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E996E73.6090005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-15T11:28:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<3B578C20919E4C5FBE57642C250DBEC3@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/15/2011 6:08 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 6:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/14/2011 12:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If I ruled worlds with all those tools you list, and then you" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "found out" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I was psionic (without using a psionic helmet), would that not" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "strike" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "you as significant?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Not really, if psychic powers are reasonably common." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So, emphatically yes (because they are not)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aren’t they? Decuman seems to have them. So does Mucor. The Cumaean\n\nhas. In Typhon’s time, there was a telepathic internet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my example, I am not a character living in Briah.\nThen I don’t understand the point of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "He does have strong arms and hands, strong enough to dangle Severian\nover a cliff. But then again, he took those from Piaton." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Which means he does not have them at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure he has them!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, he does not. Rather, he has Piaton.\nWhich includes Piaton’s hands. If all had gone well, Piaton’s head \nwould soon have been dispensed with, and the distinction becomes even \nless meaningful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's as though the discussion about genetic inheritance never happened!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I thought you said there was no difference! But again: \"I sent my" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "thought to far places.\" Why, do you think, he said that? Why did Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "have him say that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He’s talking about telepresence, virtualities? Or maybe just alluding\n\nto looking at satellite images etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why did he say it LIKE THAT?\nWhat’s wrong with the way he said it? He thinks he’s talking to an oik \nwho has never seen a TV." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who said there was anything wrong? Are we not discussing theories to fit \nthem to facts? But thank you for your long-awaited answer---it is much \nthe same as my own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It adds colour to our understanding of life in Typhon’s empire, just\nas elsewhere we learn a little about life in Ascia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am sure that is why Wolfe wrote the series: to provide color and\ninformation, like a white writer in the South after the Civil War." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You don’t think that fleshing out such imaginary societies is part of \nthe writer’s job?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's certainly not your job to put words in my mouth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I propose that the food Typhon feeds Severian is a ham sandwich. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you\nconcur?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A kolpochoerus sandwich is another example of something that is\nperfectly plausible,,. but for wich we have no evidence one way or \nthe\nother. All we know is he gave Severian food of some sort. (If I \nhad to\nguess, I’d say something like the ready meals eaten by Silk and\nMamelta on the lander.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you a machine?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I’m finding your responses increasingly hard to compute, that’s for sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can tell, Gerry!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E997042.4090108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-15T11:36:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<3E2557E1A7594F7E83CE814C62CB6312@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/15/2011 6:23 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/14/2011 6:15 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn the other hand, Typhon would have known of the dangers of\ninbreeding, and it also seems that he didn’t much like the idea of\ngenetically engineering his offspring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why do you think this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because he had access to the technology, and he didn’t use it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How do you know this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surely these things are obvious? We know he had the technology, \nbecause the Whorl is loaded with it. It seems obvious that a \ntechnology that can produce Mucor or a psychic internet can prevent, \nsay, the blindness of Tartarus, who seems otherwise sound. So Typhon \nmust have chosen not to use it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for a concrete example! But he didn't give Tartarus mechanical \neyes either. Did he also not like cyborging them? Or is something else \ngoing on?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "So it would be remarkable if he married his sister. Duke Rigoglio\ndoesn’t mention anything unusual about his marriage — you’d think\nsuch\na thing would be remarked upon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "WE would. Would anyone on Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In Severian’s time, people certainly would." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How do you know?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "***************************************************\nWhen I re-entered the cell, Agilus was sitting cross-legged, his back \npropped by the wall. \"Don't ask me about Agia,\" be said. \"Everything \nyou suspect is true--is that enough? I will be dead tomorrow, and she \nwill wed the old man who dotes on her, or someone else. I wanted her \nto do it sooner. He couldn't have prevented her from seeing me, her \nbrother. Now I will be gone, and she won't have even that to worry about.\"\n***************************************************\nClearly incest is not the norm in Severian’s time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one, and I mean NO ONE, has suggested that incest is \"the norm\" \nanywhere, ever. At all. You do your own arguments no service when you \ntwist others' arguments into nonrecognition before denying them.\n\nThe rulers of ancient Egypt committed incest almost by definition. Do \nyou really think it was \"remarked upon\" by Egyptians?\n\nIt has been suggested that \"sacred\" incest is a motif in the Sun books. \nIt has been explained why that might be the case. And it has nothing to \ndo with Margaret Meade. Are you interested at all?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9970A2.6040809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-15T11:38:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318674841.22684.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/15/2011 6:34 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Sat, 10/15/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:\n\n\n\n *From:* David Stockhoff\n \n\n > >\n > > *From:* David Stockhoff \n > > > > On the other hand, Typhon would have known of the dangers of\n > > > > inbreeding, and it also seems that he didn’t much like the\n idea of\n > > > > genetically engineering his offspring.\n > > >\n From Gerry> > > Why do you think this?\n > > Because he had access to the technology, and he didn’t use it.\n > How do you know this?\n Surely these things are obvious? We know he had the technology,\n because the Whorl is loaded with it. It seems obvious that a\n technology that can produce Mucor or a psychic internet can\n prevent, say, the blindness of Tartarus, who seems otherwise\n sound. So Typhon must have chosen not to use it.\n\nSigh. Putting your head on someone else and wanting a perfect child \nmeans to me that Typhon would have LOVED genetically getting the \nperfect heir, and somehow his technology either didn't foresee or \ncouldn't predict Tartarus' blindness. He wants a more worthy son after \nall these failures, so he decides to get the perfect one. That's what \nhe wants. I think Mucor and Typhon have \"natural\" psyhic powers \n(inherited but possibly augmented from normal homosapiens over time, \nnot necessarily machine based at all; Wolfe believes in souls) I think \nits a mistake to dismiss the unscientific as naturally impossible in \nWolfe. I would certianly engineer an heir if I would put my head on \nsomebody else, but I would still want it to be my genetic material, \neven if tweaked to be the best of me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, Marc." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T15:35:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9970A2.6040809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Surely these things are obvious? We know he had the technology,\nbecause the Whorl is loaded with it. It seems obvious that a\ntechnology that can produce Mucor or a psychic internet can\nprevent, say, the blindness of Tartarus, who seems otherwise\nsound. So Typhon must have chosen not to use it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon would have LOVED genetically getting the \nperfect heir, and somehow his technology either didn't foresee or \ncouldn't predict Tartarus' blindness. He wants a more worthy son after \nall these failures, so he decides to get the perfect one. That's what \nhe wants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI feel the discussion needs appreciation of another auctorial level for\n\nmore complete comprehension. While the Sun series is SF and contains politico-\n\nreligious philosophy it also involves intensely personal allegory.\n\n \n\nChoose whatever text-related reason makes the most sense to you, but Typhon cannot \n\nhave a perfect spouse and perfect children because Gene Wolfe (and everyone he knows \n\nand has ever known of) does not have a perfect spouse nor perfect children.\n\n \n\nFWIW, I don't think WOlfe is simply commenting on the human (or sentient being)\n\ncondition. The issues and emotions that he describes are not that generic. I think \n\nthe familial problems encountered by Severian, Typhon, Silk and Horn reflect, to a\n\nlarge degree, the personal issues Gene WOlfe himself has faced in his life. Interviews \n\nand anecdotal information I've encountered seem to confirm this.\n\n \n\nVoyeurism component aside, this is an important literary consideration. If Wolfe \n\nfeels the strong need to express his life's personal tribulations and anguishes,\n\nhe also feels the need to disguise them enough to protect the privacy of his family.\n\nI believe this is one of the primary motivators for Wolfe making so much of his work\n\nso cryptic.\n\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T20:15:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, October 15, 2011 04:59, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nOn 10/14/2011 10:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: and in the next chapter it is confirmed that he still\nhasn't" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "eaten much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or perhaps I've lost my ability to understand the written word correctly\n..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps that is the case, if you do not see the difference between my\noriginal \"still hasn't eaten much later:\" and your \"still hasn't eaten \nmuch.\"\n\nMine means he did not eat anything during the day he met Typhon or the\nnext, yours commonly means he ate some small amount during the period.\nThis confounds my entire point with the other posters that they are\nmistaken about Typhon feeding Sev.\n\nI would give most posters a pass on accidentally trimming the quote a bit\ntoo far, but not on then putting a period in the grammatically correct\nposition to make a well-formed sentence with an opposed meaning. At best\nit is critical negligence to submit post containing such a\nmisrepresentation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9D6BB635B0C94FC1823C79E2AE869377@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T20:48:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: (urth] Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E996D80.6030501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 3:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whether she reads we are not told, but she is knowledgeable about \ncomputers (and can repair them) and spacecraft and biology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All that means is that she was trained." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Training is a form of knowledge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "An emperor wants to keep knowledge to himself and his servants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon’s servants were his subjects. He might have wanted to destroy \nthe libraries of his enemies. There is no indication that he wanted to \ndestroy those of his friends. Indeed, I don’t believe your \ngeneralisation about emperors anyway. Some emperors may. I don’t think \nit would be Typhon’s style." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You said Typhon used all tools available to him to seize and to hold power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. One such tool was an educated and technologically advanced citizenry.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T20:54:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318674841.22684.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Sat, 10/15/11, Gerry Quinn wrote: " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Surely these things are obvious? We know he had the technology, because the Whorl is loaded with it. It seems obvious that a technology that can produce Mucor or a psychic internet can prevent, say, the blindness of Tartarus, who seems otherwise sound. So Typhon must have chosen not to use it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sigh. Putting your head on someone else and wanting a perfect child \nmeans to me that Typhon would have LOVED genetically getting the \nperfect heir, and somehow his technology either didn't foresee or \ncouldn't predict Tartarus' blindness. He wants a more worthy son \nafter all these failures, so he decides to get the perfect one. That's \nwhat he wants. I think Mucor and Typhon have \"natural\" psyhic powers\n(inherited but possibly augmented from normal homosapiens over time, \nnot necessarily machine based at all; Wolfe believes in souls) I think its\na mistake to dismiss the unscientific as naturally impossible in Wolfe.\n I would certianly engineer an heir if I would put my head on somebody\nelse, but I would still want it to be my genetic material, even if tweaked \nto be the best of me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Typhon’s vision and that of his other children was fine. If Tartarus were given the same it would not have impinged on any putative genetic absolutism on his part.\n - Gerry Quinn \n\n\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<29C250923BA043F59AA49F3F39EE38DD@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T21:05:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E997042.4090108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/15/2011 6:23 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nClearly incest is not the norm in Severian’s time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No one, and I mean NO ONE, has suggested that incest is \"the norm\" \nanywhere, ever. At all. You do your own arguments no service when you \ntwist others' arguments into nonrecognition before denying them.\n\nThe rulers of ancient Egypt committed incest almost by definition. Do \nyou really think it was \"remarked upon\" by Egyptians?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’m sure it was. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It has been suggested that \"sacred\" incest is a motif in the Sun books. \nIt has been explained why that might be the case. And it has nothing to \ndo with Margaret Meade. Are you interested at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A lot of stuff about incest has been posted to the list. Mostly speculating that every woman mentioned in the text is Severian’s sister, with rather little in the way of justification. So now Typhon’s at it too? The implications are complicated, though, for a guy with somebody else’s genitalia.\n\nShow me where the text implies Typhon engaged in sacred incest, and I’ll be interested. \n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9A1252.60502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-15T23:08:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: (urth] Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<9D6BB635B0C94FC1823C79E2AE869377@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry\n\nIs training a form of books?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/15/2011 4:48 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/14/2011 3:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whether she reads we are not told, but she is knowledgeable about\n\ncomputers (and can repair them) and spacecraft and biology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All that means is that she was trained.\nTraining is a form of knowledge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "An emperor wants to keep knowledge to himself and his servants.\n\nTyphon’s servants were his subjects. He might have wanted to destroy\n\nthe libraries of his enemies. There is no indication that he wanted to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "destroy those of his friends. Indeed, I don’t believe your" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "generalisation about emperors anyway. Some emperors may. I don’t think\n\nit would be Typhon’s style." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You said Typhon used all tools available to him to seize and to hold \npower.\nYes. One such tool was an educated and technologically advanced citizenry.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9A1346.5090803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-15T23:12:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<29C250923BA043F59AA49F3F39EE38DD@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/15/2011 5:05 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/15/2011 6:23 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Clearly incest is not the norm in Severian’s time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No one, and I mean NO ONE, has suggested that incest is \"the norm\"\nanywhere, ever. At all. You do your own arguments no service when you\ntwist others' arguments into nonrecognition before denying them.\n\nThe rulers of ancient Egypt committed incest almost by definition. Do\nyou really think it was \"remarked upon\" by Egyptians?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I’m sure it was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It has been suggested that \"sacred\" incest is a motif in the Sun books.\nIt has been explained why that might be the case. And it has nothing to\ndo with Margaret Meade. Are you interested at all?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A lot of stuff about incest has been posted to the list. Mostly \nspeculating that every woman mentioned in the text is Severian’s \nsister, with rather little in the way of justification. So now \nTyphon’s at it too? The implications are complicated, though, for a \nguy with somebody else’s genitalia.\nShow me where the text implies Typhon engaged in sacred incest, and \nI’ll be interested." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't ask me. I didn't suggest it. Ask the person who suggested it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-16T01:08:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9A1346.5090803@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So now Typhon’s at it too? The implications are complicated, though, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for a guy with somebody else’s genitalia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHeh, well. I don't think Typhon was having much sex with Piaton's body\n\nsince it was in restraints until their (first) death on the couch. But\n\nwho knows. We know from Typhon's conversation with Severian and the hidden \n\npainting of Typhon that Silk destroys that he was a pretty kinky guy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Show me where the text implies Typhon engaged in sacred incest, and \nI’ll be interested." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThis has already been done. WOlfe chose to name Typhon-Pas' wife\n\n\"Echidna\". Mythological Echinda was a snake-woman and was the sister and \n\nwife of Typhon and the mother of Scylla and Sphigx (sphinx) among other\n\nmonsters.\n\n \n\nLong Sun Echidna is a snake woman, wife to Typhon and mother of Scylla and\n\nSphygx. If we understand that there are puzzles to solve in this book, the\n\nsibling status of Typhon and Echidna isn't a difficult one to solve. You \n\nhave four linked puzzled pieces (snakey, Typhon, Scylla, Sphigx) and one \n\nmissing piece (siblings). Simply plug it in. It fits.\n\n \n\nAgainst this positive evidence that Typhon and Echidna are siblings we are \n\ngetting an argument that they are not siblings based on....well, nothing I \n\nguess aside from a gut-level feeling that incest just ain't normal.\n\n \n\nIt was normal for pagan gods and it was normal for pharonic dynasties both\n\nof which lend themselves to the literary creation ofthe gods of the Whorl.\n\nThis has been pointed out, but without text evidence Gerry bravely soldiers \n\non in his insistance that Typhon and Echidna cannot be siblings. I guess that \n\nlevel of devotion to intransigence does warrant a bit of admiration. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-16T01:28:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 16/10/2011, ?s 02:08, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "evidence that Typhon and Echidna are siblings" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know that there's evidence for it, but it would explain why the heck Typhon and Echidna remained spouses. Other than ritual incest, I see no explanation for it. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-16T12:18:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Show me where the text implies Typhon engaged in sacred incest, and \nI’ll be interested." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This has already been done. WOlfe chose to name Typhon-Pas' wife\n\"Echidna\". Mythological Echinda was a snake-woman and was the sister and \nwife of Typhon and the mother of Scylla and Sphigx (sphinx) among other\nmonsters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wikipedia gives two accounts of Typhon’s origin, and four for Echidna. Of the eight combinations, Echidna is his sister in one and his niece in one. Wikipedia is not exhaustive and others could be found.\n\nI notice you don’t mention Typhon’s father. Could that be something to do with the fact that his father was TARTARUS? In BotLS, the Whorl god named Tartarus was clearly Pas’s son. [In the Hera origin story, Typhon had no father.] " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Long Sun Echidna is a snake woman, wife to Typhon and mother of Scylla and\nSphygx. If we understand that there are puzzles to solve in this book, the\nsibling status of Typhon and Echidna isn't a difficult one to solve." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you (and some others) greatly misunderstand the nature of Wolfe’s books. You seem to think of them as some sort of puzzle in which a hidden underlying story, cloned from some ancient myth or other, is disguised as a science fiction story. The object (you think) is to peel away the extraneous matter and locate the crossword clues to the true story you think is lurking underneath. You clutch at every possible classical reference because with those there’s always some way to play six degrees of Kevin Bacon towards whatever scheme you are trying to impose on the story.\n\nWhy would Wolfe engage in a complicated, arbitrary, pointless scheme such as this? He is writing his own stories. Science fiction stories. Yes, he enriches them with classical references, but he is not rewriting the classics. Yes, he loves to place keystones of his story in a subtle and understated way, but they are always there in plain sight and they are NOT in general found in proper names. [To place them in proper names would in fact be a gross dereliction of artistry, excluding the reader who is attentive but lacks a particular literary background. I will allow that they can be in proper names as well as in the story proper, and that exceptions could be made in certain circumstances.]\n\nThe story of the BotNS is its own. Wolfe has obviously taken inspiration and ideas from many sources, but these sources are just raw material and not in any sense what the story is about. Wolfe takes the raw material and twists it into the shapes he wants, and the texture of it is still there and if he is successful the texture fits the story he is telling. But it is subservient; it is not part of the story.\n\nRead the text with care and you will find answers in events and in the words of the characters. Chase allusions instead and you will produce random noise which you will then interpret to fulfil some arbitrary thesis, just as we can hear whatever music we like when we listen to white noise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You \nhave four linked puzzled pieces (snakey, Typhon, Scylla, Sphigx) and one \nmissing piece (siblings). Simply plug it in. It fits." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it’s just noise, unless there’s some reason why it’s significant that Typhon’s wife should be his sister,. and if there were some reason for that — maybe there is but nobody has presented it yet — it would be in the \nstory and the names would just drive it home, or give the classically educated reader a knowing smile.\n \nSo, what do you think are the implications of Tartarus actually being Pas’s father? He must be hiding right? I know, he’s Father Inire! When you play this game there’s no place to stop until there’s nothing left of what Wolfe actually wrote." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Against this positive evidence that Typhon and Echidna are siblings we are \ngetting an argument that they are not siblings based on....well, nothing I \nguess aside from a gut-level feeling that incest just ain't normal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually it’s based on the fact that there is no reason in the story to think they are siblings, just as there’s no reason to think Tartarus is Pas’s father." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was normal for pagan gods and it was normal for pharonic dynasties both\nof which lend themselves to the literary creation ofthe gods of the Whorl.\nThis has been pointed out, but without text evidence Gerry bravely soldiers \non in his insistance that Typhon and Echidna cannot be siblings. I guess that \nlevel of devotion to intransigence does warrant a bit of admiration. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can find anything you want in the literary sources of the gods of the Whorl. You can find incest if that’s your obsession, or you can find as many or more outcrossings with non-human creatures if you want to go in the opposite direction from incest. In either case you’re not paying attention to the book Wolfe wrote, you’re writing your own book, incorporating a word here and there from Wolfe’s and ignoring the rest.\n\nWolfe is writing science fiction novels, not detective stories or gnostic scrolls. Read them as such, and a lot of the so-called “puzzles” will evaporate.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318778704.82946.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-16T15:25:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sun, 10/16/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\nWhy would Wolfe engage in a complicated, arbitrary, pointless scheme such as this? He is writing his own stories. Science fiction stories. Yes, he enriches them with classical references, but he is not rewriting the classics. Yes, he loves to place keystones of his story in a subtle and understated way, but they are always there in plain sight and they are NOT in general found in proper names. [To place them in proper names would in fact be a gross dereliction of artistry, excluding the reader who is attentive but lacks a particular literary background. I will allow that they can be in proper names as well as in the story proper, and that exceptions could be made in certain circumstances.]\n\nGerry, in general I agree with you on this, but I do think Wolfe DOES at times perform this \"gross dereliction of artistry\" for the reader with a particular background (not necessarily literary).\n\nFor example, the short story Suzanne Delage - her very name is pulled from a book about a narrator who eats something and involuntarily remembers things he had completely forgotten from his childhood that COMPLETELY changes how he perceives the world and the people he knew. In this case, Wolfe is clearly saying the narrator has involuntarily forgotten something with that allusion, in addition to invoking the Spanish Influenza offhandedly (called the forgotten illness) etc etc. The point is these things point to forgetfulness of extraordinary events, and the premise of the story itself is that extraordinary things will be forgotten. So, yes, sometimes you are just out of the loop.\n\nI don't think he just goes straight from one myth to his writing, it's too limiting. He has his own agenda, this is why I can't lend any real credence in authorial intent in Typhon and Echidna as siblings are to mapping myths onto the stories unless they are just EXPLICIT in the text.\n\nHowever, WOLFE DOES NOT SPELL OUT EVERYTHING or we wouldn't all disagree, and sometimes these inferences require outside knowledge, the \"roman a clef\" principal and play intertextually. That's just the way it is. Having said that, no, I don't think he maps mythology in terms of familial relationships this way since he created his own relationship scheme on the whorl through features and names (yeah, it makes sense that SOMEHOW [i posit \"adoption\"] Tussah and Silk are related because of their names)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318778918.85729.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-16T15:28:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318778704.82946.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc wrote:\n?He has his own agenda, this is why I can't lend any real credence in authorial intent in Typhon and Echidna as siblings?ARE to mapping myths onto the stories unless they are just EXPLICIT in the text.\n\nSorry, that should be OR up there. What's wrong with me? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9B24AB.6040506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-16T18:38:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/15/2011 9:08 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAgainst this positive evidence that Typhon and Echidna are siblings we \nare getting an argument that they are not siblings based on....well, \nnothing I guess aside from a gut-level feeling that incest just ain't \nnormal. It was normal for pagan gods and it was normal for pharonic \ndynasties both of which lend themselves to the literary creation ofthe \ngods of the Whorl. This has been pointed out, but without text \nevidence Gerry bravely soldiers on in his insistance that Typhon and \nEchidna cannot be siblings. I guess that level of devotion to \nintransigence does warrant a bit of admiration. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to note that incest is almost by definition covert. The \nimplication of it does its own work. See any gothic novel---including \nWalpole's. Either a whisper of it is enough to destroy, or the brazen \nfact of it is enough to establish that a character has departed from \ncommon morality---or else he is an Oriental despot who never knew it in \nthe first place. The possibilities are: monstrous guilt, blasphemy, \nhubris, or alchemy. A hint of Typhon doing it would speak volumes about \nhim and how he saw himself.\n\nAnd didn't someone just observe that all Typhon's offspring had \nsomething wrong with them?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9B2AC6.1030207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-16T19:04:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/16/2011 8:18 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Show me where the text implies Typhon engaged in sacred incest, and\nI’ll be interested." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This has already been done. WOlfe chose to name Typhon-Pas' wife\n\"Echidna\". Mythological Echinda was a snake-woman and was the sister \nand\nwife of Typhon and the mother of Scylla and Sphigx (sphinx) among other\nmonsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wikipedia gives two accounts of Typhon’s origin, and four for Echidna. \nOf the eight combinations, Echidna is his sister in one and his niece \nin one. Wikipedia is not exhaustive and others could be found.\nI notice you don’t mention Typhon’s father. Could that be something to \ndo with the fact that his father was TARTARUS? In BotLS, the Whorl god \nnamed Tartarus was clearly Pas’s son. [In the Hera origin story, \nTyphon had no father.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Long Sun Echidna is a snake woman, wife to Typhon and mother of \nScylla and\nSphygx. If we understand that there are puzzles to solve in this \nbook, the\nsibling status of Typhon and Echidna isn't a difficult one to solve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you (and some others) greatly misunderstand the nature of \nWolfe’s books. You seem to think of them as some sort of puzzle in \nwhich a hidden underlying story, cloned from some ancient myth or \nother, is disguised as a science fiction story. The object (you think) \nis to peel away the extraneous matter and locate the crossword clues \nto the true story you think is lurking underneath. You clutch at every \npossible classical reference because with those there’s always some \nway to play six degrees of Kevin Bacon towards whatever scheme you are \ntrying to impose on the story.\nWhy would Wolfe engage in a complicated, arbitrary, pointless scheme \nsuch as this? He is writing his own stories. Science fiction stories. \nYes, he enriches them with classical references, but he is not \nrewriting the classics. Yes, he loves to place keystones of his story \nin a subtle and understated way, but they are always there in plain \nsight and they are NOT in general found in proper names. [To place \nthem in proper names would in fact be a gross dereliction of artistry, \nexcluding the reader who is attentive but lacks a particular literary \nbackground. I will allow that they can be in proper names as well as \nin the story proper, and that exceptions could be made in certain \ncircumstances.]\nThe story of the BotNS is its own. Wolfe has obviously taken \ninspiration and ideas from many sources, but these sources are just \nraw material and not in any sense what the story is about. Wolfe takes \nthe raw material and twists it into the shapes he wants, and the \ntexture of it is still there and if he is successful the texture fits \nthe story he is telling. But it is subservient; it is not part of the \nstory.\nRead the text with care and you will find answers in events and in the \nwords of the characters. Chase allusions instead and you will produce \nrandom noise which you will then interpret to fulfil some arbitrary \nthesis, just as we can hear whatever music we like when we listen to \nwhite noise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry\n\nAll this is very true and well put. Allusions are allusions and, unless \na particular story is so well known that any hint of it carries great \nweight (and there is after all one Greatest Story in particular that \nWolfe retells in semi-hidden fashion in TBotNS that undeniably fits that \ndescription!), they should be taken in small doses. Six degrees of \nseparation is way too many.\n\nBut here we have kindergarten mythology leaping out at us. Echidna is \nwell know to be the mother of monsters. Typhon's and Echidna's family is \na veritable pantheon of divine monsters. The onus is on you to deny a \ntheory of how this situation came about and what it means in New Sun and \nLong Sun. You'll need to do more than sit back and yawn if you wish your \ndenials to be taken seriously.\n\nWhy should Wolfe care if he recasts a father as a son to create this \ndebased and pagan Olympus? You say yourself that allusions don't matter! \nWolfe is already necessarily picking and choosing among disparate \nmythologies. I see Milton's Satan in there plain as day, because Satan \nraped his daughter to produce all the sins of the world. I could go on.\n\nBut incest couldn't possibly happen in New Sun! No, Wolfe would avoid \nthis topic, the bread and butter of half the mythologies (and ancient \ndynasties) of the world, to avoid upsetting Gerry Quinn with the \ncovertness of its secret histories." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9B2F22.4020406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-16T19:23:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318778704.82946.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 10/16/2011 11:25 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n...\nI don't think he just goes straight from one myth to his writing, it's \ntoo limiting. He has his own agenda, this is why I can't lend any real \ncredence in authorial intent in Typhon and Echidna as siblings are to \nmapping myths onto the stories unless they are just EXPLICIT in the text.\nHowever, WOLFE DOES NOT SPELL OUT EVERYTHING or we wouldn't all \ndisagree, and sometimes these inferences require outside knowledge, the \n\"roman a clef\" principal and play intertextually. That's just the way \nit is. Having said that, no, I don't think he maps mythology in terms \nof familial relationships this way since he created his own relationship \nscheme on the whorl through features and names (yeah, it makes sense \nthat SOMEHOW [i posit \"adoption\"] Tussah and Silk are related because of \ntheir names)\n\nThese are two opposite principals. On the one hand, we need some degree \nof concreteness before we fall for \"extraordinary claims.\" On the other, \nwe know that some explicitness is indirect. \"Explicit\" does not mean \n\"shouted.\"\n\nIn the case of Typhon's theoretical incest with Echidna, it's not a plot \npoint, because it's deep backstory. It's as much thematic as background, \na little less concrete and well-defined. Standards are lower: there's no \nreason to hash it out as though it has a direct impact on the \ncharacters. It's just implied. I can hold it suspended in my mind as \nsomething that fits (the names, the monstrous offspring, Typhon as \nSatan, as Alexander, as Pharaoh, as Oz, etc.) without regarding it as a \nbedrock positive. However, we already have incest occurring at least \ntwice in TBotNS, and that almost cries out for a third instance.\n\nUnfortunately for the antigenetic contingent, Silk himself is more than \na character. He's a BODY. The origin of his body is itself a backstory. \nAn event 30 years ago physically affects Silk today. So we can't just \ndismiss a potentially tangled and warped tale of genetic inheritance (of \npossibly very interesting traits) as unimportant just because we'd \nrather see Typhon as a one-dimensional cardboard plot point of no deep \nsignificance and a randomly chosen name." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318793412.17618.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-16T19:30:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9B2AC6.1030207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 10/16/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nAll this is very true and well put. Allusions are allusions\nand, unless a particular story is so well known that any\nhint of it carries great weight (and there is after all one\nGreatest Story in particular that Wolfe retells in\nsemi-hidden fashion in TBotNS that undeniably fits that\ndescription!), they should be taken in small doses. Six\ndegrees of separation is way too many.\n\nBut here we have kindergarten mythology leaping out at us.\nEchidna is well know to be the mother of monsters. Typhon's\nand Echidna's family is a veritable pantheon of divine\nmonsters. The onus is on you to deny a theory of how this\nsituation came about and what it means in New Sun and Long\nSun. You'll need to do more than sit back and yawn if you\nwish your denials to be taken seriously.\n\nWhy should Wolfe care if he recasts a father as a son to\ncreate this debased and pagan Olympus? You say yourself that\nallusions don't matter! Wolfe is already necessarily picking\nand choosing among disparate mythologies. I see Milton's\nSatan in there plain as day, because Satan raped his\ndaughter to produce all the sins of the world. I could go\non.\n\nBut incest couldn't possibly happen in New Sun! No, Wolfe\nwould avoid this topic, the bread and butter of half the\nmythologies (and ancient dynasties) of the world, to avoid\nupsetting Gerry Quinn with the covertness of its secret\nhistories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry tends to stray to absolute surface level interpretations, but I often agree with him that a well known myth will not agree in EVERY particular when mapped onto the story, as, yes, there are different myths that are mutually exclusive. \n\nGerry may be correct in saying that simply the names Echidna and Pas might not be quite enough to imply that they are genetically related without other internal evidence (sometimes in the form of theme - I think this is huge in Wolfe). (Are consistently flawed and damaged children that internal textual evidence? I don't know - maybe.)\n\nI DO think the story of Hyacinthus is actually of the utmost importance in Short Sun(transmogrification of fallen lover into vegetable matter that survives tenaciously). Additionally, James' explanation of the code word Thetis seems spot on - from a time when Zeus was rebelled against (in the Iliad?) Similarly, OBVIOUSly we have to consider the myth and history of the period in the Latro books to glean absolute meanings. But just the fact that the greek gods enjoyed incestuous relationships and Wolfe used their names isn't quite enough for me to say, for sure, Typhon and Echidna had to be siblings." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9B316B.80406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-16T19:32:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9B2F22.4020406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies to Marc and all for the formatting disaster in my last post. \nHere's a fix.\n\nI also should clarify that the mystery of Sillk's genetic heritage and \nTyphon's relationship with Echidna may OR may not be separate problems. \nIf the explicit Silk problem can be traced back to Typhon/Echidna, then \nthe source of the sperm Echidna used to create her family becomes much \nmore relevant and the incest question more acute.\n\nUntil then, I regard Typhonic incest as implied but unproven." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/16/2011 3:23 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/16/2011 11:25 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n...\nI don't think he just goes straight from one myth to his writing, it's \ntoo limiting. He has his own agenda, this is why I can't lend any \nreal credence in authorial intent in Typhon and Echidna as siblings \nare to mapping myths onto the stories unless they are just EXPLICIT in \nthe text.\nHowever, WOLFE DOES NOT SPELL OUT EVERYTHING or we wouldn't all \ndisagree, and sometimes these inferences require outside knowledge, \nthe \"roman a clef\" principal and play intertextually. That's just the \nway it is. Having said that, no, I don't think he maps mythology in \nterms of familial relationships this way since he created his own \nrelationship scheme on the whorl through features and names (yeah, it \nmakes sense that SOMEHOW [i posit \"adoption\"] Tussah and Silk are \nrelated because of their names)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These are two opposite principals. On the one hand, we need some \ndegree of concreteness before we fall for \"extraordinary claims.\" On \nthe other, we know that some explicitness is indirect. \"Explicit\" does \nnot mean \"shouted.\"\n\nIn the case of Typhon's theoretical incest with Echidna, it's not a \nplot point, because it's deep backstory. It's as much thematic as \nbackground, a little less concrete and well-defined. Standards are \nlower: there's no reason to hash it out as though it has a direct \nimpact on the characters. It's just implied. I can hold it suspended \nin my mind as something that fits (the names, the monstrous offspring, \nTyphon as Satan, as Alexander, as Pharaoh, as Oz, etc.) without \nregarding it as a bedrock positive. However, we already have incest \noccurring at least twice in TBotNS, and that almost cries out for a \nthird instance.\n\nUnfortunately for the antigenetic contingent, Silk himself is more \nthan a character. He's a BODY. The origin of his body is itself a \nbackstory. An event 30 years ago physically affects Silk today. So we \ncan't just dismiss a potentially tangled and warped tale of genetic \ninheritance (of possibly very interesting traits) as unimportant just \nbecause we'd rather see Typhon as a one-dimensional cardboard plot \npoint of no deep significance and a randomly chosen name." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9B3437.3090201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-16T19:44:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318793412.17618.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/16/2011 3:30 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n--- On Sun, 10/16/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All this is very true and well put. Allusions are allusions\nand, unless a particular story is so well known that any\nhint of it carries great weight (and there is after all one\nGreatest Story in particular that Wolfe retells in\nsemi-hidden fashion in TBotNS that undeniably fits that\ndescription!), they should be taken in small doses. Six\ndegrees of separation is way too many.\n\nBut here we have kindergarten mythology leaping out at us.\nEchidna is well know to be the mother of monsters. Typhon's\nand Echidna's family is a veritable pantheon of divine\nmonsters. The onus is on you to deny a theory of how this\nsituation came about and what it means in New Sun and Long\nSun. You'll need to do more than sit back and yawn if you\nwish your denials to be taken seriously.\n\nWhy should Wolfe care if he recasts a father as a son to\ncreate this debased and pagan Olympus? You say yourself that\nallusions don't matter! Wolfe is already necessarily picking\nand choosing among disparate mythologies. I see Milton's\nSatan in there plain as day, because Satan raped his\ndaughter to produce all the sins of the world. I could go\non.\n\nBut incest couldn't possibly happen in New Sun! No, Wolfe\nwould avoid this topic, the bread and butter of half the\nmythologies (and ancient dynasties) of the world, to avoid\nupsetting Gerry Quinn with the covertness of its secret\nhistories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry tends to stray to absolute surface level interpretations, but I often agree with him that a well known myth will not agree in EVERY particular when mapped onto the story, as, yes, there are different myths that are mutually exclusive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry may be correct in saying that simply the names Echidna and Pas might not be quite enough to imply that they are genetically related without other internal evidence (sometimes in the form of theme - I think this is huge in Wolfe). (Are consistently flawed and damaged children that internal textual evidence? I don't know - maybe.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The evidence is certainly circumstantial and not presented on an \nexplicit and detailed level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I DO think the story of Hyacinthus is actually of the utmost importance in Short Sun(transmogrification of fallen lover into vegetable matter that survives tenaciously). Additionally, James' explanation of the code word Thetis seems spot on - from a time when Zeus was rebelled against (in the Iliad?) Similarly, OBVIOUSly we have to consider the myth and history of the period in the Latro books to glean absolute meanings. But just the fact that the greek gods enjoyed incestuous relationships and Wolfe used their names isn't quite enough for me to say, for sure, Typhon and Echidna had to be siblings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. You need more than a single point of correspondence to establish \nan argument. The gods were bisexual and homicidal, too, but that doesn't \nmean Andrew killed Sam the flute player.\n\nUnless Sam was found flayed alive---then you'd have to pay attention!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-16T20:49:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9B3437.3090201@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I also should clarify that the mystery of Sillk's genetic " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "heritage and Typhon's relationship with Echidna may OR may not be separate " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "problems. If the explicit Silk problem can be traced back to Typhon/Echidna, then \nthe source of the sperm Echidna used to create her family becomes much \nmore relevant and the incest question more acute." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Until then, I regard Typhonic incest as implied but unproven." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nA nice synthesis of these two issues. This mirrors my own view, which is that\n\nthere are implications of partial mythological mapping througout the text of\n\nthe Sun series but nothing concrete enough so that a person like Gerry would \n\nbe forced to concede the possible relevance.\n\n \n\nActually I think Gerry, in a moment of weakness, did concede that the Bird-of-\n\nthe-Woods story did map nicely to the Roman Rhea Silvia myth. Perhaps the heat\n\nof recent battle has driven him back to his fortified position of denial of any\n\nand all mythological significance in Wolfe's work.\n\n \n\nThis time it is your fault not mine David. ;- )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I notice you don’t mention Typhon’s father. Could that be something " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to do with the fact that his father was TARTARUS?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think that is a good question, though the assumption that I ought to be addressing\n\nall the complexities of all the issues of these stories in one post is rather an\n\nunrealistic expectation. Neither did I address the indirect relationship of\n\nmythological Typhon to Phaea. She was the human caretaker of one of Typhon and \n\nEchidna's monstrous offspring, the Hus Krommyon or Crommoyon Sow. And no, I'm not\n\ngoing to discuss Babby at this time.\n\n \n\nAnyway regarding Tartaros, I think this is another example of the father-son sequence\n\nconfusion which is tangentially introduced througout the Sun series but is most explicitly\n\nstated in RttW. \n\n \n\nAs has been suggested in the past I think this has its basis in the father-son confusion \n\nof ambiguous gender Dionysus being a primeval Greek deity who gave rise to the Titans and \n\nOlympians and their paternalistic kings Chronos and Zeus. One of Zeus' offspring was then \n\nambiguous gender Dionysus who was a primary deity (in various guises) during the pre-Christian\n\nperiod centered across what was Alexander's empire.\n\n \n\nI think it is the belief of many pagan cults that the paternalistic Christian religion \n\nwhich now dominates so much of the Western world will one day be again supplanted by \n\nworship of the hermaphroditic, One True God, Dionysus, Great God Pan, The Green Man or\n\nvarious other names he goes by. Son-Father-Son-Father-Son gods...etc. It is confusing\n\nand I think WOlfe is astute in recognizing that gnostic confusion in this story.\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9B4A68.4020208@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-16T21:19:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/16/2011 4:49 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nGerry Quinn: I notice you don’t mention Typhon’s father. Could that be something\nto do with the fact that his father was TARTARUS?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that is a good question, though the assumption that I ought to be addressing\n\nall the complexities of all the issues of these stories in one post is rather an\n\nunrealistic expectation. Neither did I address the indirect relationship of\n\nmythological Typhon to Phaea. She was the human caretaker of one of Typhon and\n\nEchidna's monstrous offspring, the Hus Krommyon or Crommoyon Sow. And no, I'm not\n\ngoing to discuss Babby at this time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please do!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway regarding Tartaros, I think this is another example of the father-son sequence\n\nconfusion which is tangentially introduced througout the Sun series but is most explicitly\n\nstated in RttW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh. Yes, the frequency with which these things occur---Silk and his \nfather, Horn and his sons---suggests that it may need a closer look as \nits own phenomenon, rather than just a result of (or clue to) other \nproblems." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As has been suggested in the past I think this has its basis in the father-son confusion\n\nof ambiguous gender Dionysus being a primeval Greek deity who gave rise to the Titans and\n\nOlympians and their paternalistic kings Chronos and Zeus. One of Zeus' offspring was then\n\nambiguous gender Dionysus who was a primary deity (in various guises) during the pre-Christian\n\nperiod centered across what was Alexander's empire.\n\n\n\nI think it is the belief of many pagan cults that the paternalistic Christian religion\n\nwhich now dominates so much of the Western world will one day be again supplanted by\n\nworship of the hermaphroditic, One True God, Dionysus, Great God Pan, The Green Man or\n\nvarious other names he goes by. Son-Father-Son-Father-Son gods...etc. It is confusing\n\nand I think WOlfe is astute in recognizing that gnostic confusion in this story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very nice! Tangentially, one could argue that the question of what to do \nwith the Trinity when presenting an alternative, pre-Christ mythology is \nits own problem. That is, ones, twos, and threes become significant, for \nbetter or worse. Avoid 3 or go with something else? If not 3-in-1, why \nnot 2-in-one? (Consider the monoecious plant, with 2 sexes in one \n\"house.\") And never mind that we still don't know who Christ's mother was!\n\nTwo-in-one divinity takes one right back to divine incest, of course. A \nhermaphroditic Deity represents an ideal union of what here on Earth is \nforever divided. A self-pollinating \"God\" would fit right in, in Briah, \nwith its perpetual, cyclical regeneration.\n\nRemind you of anyone, Lee?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318802721.68863.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-16T22:05:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9B4A68.4020208@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sun, 10/16/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n And never mind that we still don't know who" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christ's mother was!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course Wolfe would tell you the homoousios nature of Christ would not preclude his FULL AND COMPLETE humanity (ie entirely Mary's son - but who can say with how many chromosomes or if that Y was the only Divine tweak) There would be neither \"Sophia\" nor \"Gaia\" nor other mysterious female divine addition to Christ's essence or karyotype." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T02:11:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318802721.68863.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Two-in-one divinity takes one right back to divine incest, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of course. A hermaphroditic Deity represents an ideal union of what here on " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earth is forever divided. A self-pollinating \"God\" would fit right in, in Briah, \nwith its perpetual, cyclical regeneration. Remind you of anyone, Lee?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWow, that is insightful, David. In pondering the Sun series over the past years\n\nI came to be aware of perhaps the most important aspect of monotheism. We can \n\nrecognize that the Greek and other pantheons of ancient gods were not really immoral in \n\ntheir incestuous relationships because, who the heck else could they mate with?\n\n \n\nBut, with a nod to Gerry, it is a human (and even mammalian) trait to avoid incest and\n\nwe humans can't fully respect gods who participate in that (not to mention the \"bestiality\" \n\nof their matings with humans). And it is pretty clear from the mythologic stories that \n\nthe Greeks really didn't respect their gods very much.\n\n \n\nMonotheism provides a God we can respect, especially among those prudish Middle Eastern types.\n\nI hadn't considered that a hermaphroditic \"self-pollinating\" god might solve that problem\n\nin a different way. \n\n \n\nDavid, were you hinting at Tzadkiel (who appears in male and in female form and would seem to \n\nhave something to do with universal reproduction)? Tzadkiel has a son, Venant, and those such\n\nas Apheta are the \"larvae\" of the hierogrammates. But we are not given enough information to\n\nknow how such offpring are reproduced. Self-pollination..hm...I tellya, it might make sense.\n\nHard to imagine Tzadkiel performing the sex act in the usual human way with some other. And\n\nTzadkiel compares himself to a sponge animal...\n\n \n\n...okay Just did a little zoology refresher and sponges are monoecious. They can reproduce\n\nasexually by budding but sexually they are not self-fertilizing. They reproduce sexually \n\nthrough being *sequential hermaphrodites*, producing sperm for one time period and eggs\n\nduring a later time period. DAMN! Tzadkiel really is a freaking sponge!\n\n \n\nWell, anyway, we have the long Biblical tradition of understanding angels to be hermaphroditic \n\nor di-sexual beings. And likewise for Dionysus. And an understanding that Dionysus and other \n\nGreek deities have been conflated with angels and demons by Christian and gnostic sects. And \n\nthen Gene Wolfe comes along and adds some invertebrate biology to that mix. Hallelujah! I didn't \n\nthink my level of awe for this story could get any greater but it just did. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9B9967.10009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T02:56:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/16/2011 10:11 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Two-in-one divinity takes one right back to divine incest,\nof course. A hermaphroditic Deity represents an ideal union of what here on\nEarth is forever divided. A self-pollinating \"God\" would fit right in, in Briah,\nwith its perpetual, cyclical regeneration. Remind you of anyone, Lee?\n\nWow, that is insightful, David. In pondering the Sun series over the past years\n\nI came to be aware of perhaps the most important aspect of monotheism. We can\n\nrecognize that the Greek and other pantheons of ancient gods were not really immoral in\n\ntheir incestuous relationships because, who the heck else could they mate with?\n\n\nBut, with a nod to Gerry, it is a human (and even mammalian) trait to avoid incest and\n\nwe humans can't fully respect gods who participate in that (not to mention the \"bestiality\"\n\nof their matings with humans). And it is pretty clear from the mythologic stories that\n\nthe Greeks really didn't respect their gods very much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True! They feared them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Monotheism provides a God we can respect, especially among those prudish Middle Eastern types.\n\nI hadn't considered that a hermaphroditic \"self-pollinating\" god might solve that problem\n\nin a different way.\n\n\n\nDavid, were you hinting at Tzadkiel (who appears in male and in female form and would seem to\n\nhave something to do with universal reproduction)? Tzadkiel has a son, Venant, and those such\n\nas Apheta are the \"larvae\" of the hierogrammates. But we are not given enough information to\n\nknow how such offpring are reproduced. Self-pollination..hm...I tellya, it might make sense.\n\nHard to imagine Tzadkiel performing the sex act in the usual human way with some other. And\n\nTzadkiel compares himself to a sponge animal..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You win the prize!\n\nI'm not making any particular argument here. I just think Wolfe has \ndefinitely thought these things over. He might simply have asked \nhimself, \"What would a sentient sponge or a species of angels really be \nlike\"? But it is a little eerie that we have touched on such matters as \ndivine incest and found resonance all over Briah." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T05:19:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9B9967.10009@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A hermaphroditic Deity represents an ideal union of what here on\nEarth is forever divided. A self-pollinating \"God\" would fit right in, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in Briah, with its perpetual, cyclical regeneration. Remind you of anyone, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n\nDavid, were you hinting at Tzadkiel> David, were you hinting at Tzadkiel (who appears in male and in female form and would seem to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "have something to do with universal reproduction)? Tzadkiel has a son, Venant, and those such\n\nas Apheta are the \"larvae\" of the hierogrammates. But we are not given enough information to\n\nknow how such offpring are reproduced. Self-pollination..hm...I tellya, it might make sense.\n\nHard to imagine Tzadkiel performing the sex act in the usual human way with some other. And\n\nTzadkiel compares himself to a sponge animal...> David, were you hinting at Tzadkiel (who appears in male and in female form and would seem to\n\nhave something to do with universal reproduction)? Tzadkiel has a son, Venant, and those such\n\nas Apheta are the \"larvae\" of the hierogrammates. But we are not given enough information to\n\nknow how such offpring are reproduced. Self-pollination..hm...I tellya, it might make sense.\n\nHard to imagine Tzadkiel performing the sex act in the usual human way with some other. And\n\nTzadkiel compares himself to a sponge animal...> David, were you hinting at Tzadkiel (who appears in male and in female form and would seem to\n\nhave something to do with universal reproduction)? Tzadkiel has a son, Venant, and those such\n\nas Apheta are the \"larvae\" of the hierogrammates. But we are not given enough information to\n\nknow how such offpring are reproduced. Self-pollination..hm...I tellya, it might make sense.\n\nHard to imagine Tzadkiel performing the sex act in the usual human way with some other. And\n\nTzadkiel compares himself to a sponge animal...> David, were you hinting at Tzadkiel (who appears in male and in female form and would seem to\n\nhave something to do with universal reproduction)? Tzadkiel has a son, Venant, and those such\n\nas Apheta are the \"larvae\" of the hierogrammates. But we are not given enough information to\n\nknow how such offpring are reproduced. Self-pollination..hm...I tellya, it might make sense.\n\nHard to imagine Tzadkiel performing the sex act in the usual human way with some other. And\n\nTzadkiel compares himself to a sponge animal...David, were you hinting at Tzadkiel..Tzadkiel compares himself to a sponge animal..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You win the prize! I'm not making any particular argument here. I just think " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe has definitely thought these things over. He might simply have asked \nhimself, \"What would a sentient sponge or a species of angels really be \nlike\"? But it is a little eerie that we have touched on such matters as \ndivine incest and found resonance all over Briah." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n \n\nIt really is eerie. My head is still swimming a bit from the resonance of the\n\ndivinely ambiguous father-son and incest themes through all 12 Sun books.\n\n \n\nI guess if we rely only on the text we could conclude WOlfe's intentions might be\n\npurely superficial with no thought of mytho-religious allegory. But then we read\n\nin an interview that he thinks Jesus Christ is underappreciated. That part of his\n\nwriting is meant to illustrate this by creating worlds where Christ is absent.\n\n \n\nFor me, the interview quotes take the skeleton hints of a pagan universe in this\n\nstory and puts flesh on the bones. (of course I'm not saying it has to work that\n\nway for everyone)\n\n \n\nThanks for bringing up the Trinity, btw (thanks also to Mathew Weber for earlier \n\nmentioning forgiveness of sin as the role of Jesus Christ). Never having been \n\nChristian I tend to forget some things...\n\n \n\n...though I just noticed I am paternal-Judeo-Christian enough to have called \n\nTzadkiel \"he\" when the sponge comparison was made when Tzadkiel was female. Or \n\nperhaps that is mostly because Tzadkiel is male during the majority of his/her \n\nappearance in the story. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<316B693D2D354CFE83048A4A96E724FA@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T11:31:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318778704.82946.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Sun, 10/16/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Why would Wolfe engage in a complicated, arbitrary, pointless scheme such as this? He is writing his own stories. Science fiction stories. Yes, he enriches them with classical references, but he is not rewriting the classics. Yes, he loves to place keystones of his story in a subtle and understated way, but they are always there in plain sight and they are NOT in general found in proper names. [To place them in proper names would in fact be a gross dereliction of artistry, excluding the reader who is attentive but lacks a particular literary background. I will allow that they can be in proper names as well as in the story proper, and that exceptions could be made in certain circumstances.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, in general I agree with you on this, but I do think Wolfe DOES at times perform this\n \"gross dereliction of artistry\" for the reader with a particular background (not necessarily literary)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For example, the short story Suzanne Delage - her very name is pulled from a book about a \nnarrator who eats something and involuntarily remembers things he had completely forgotten \nfrom his childhood that COMPLETELY changes how he perceives the world and the people he \nknew. In this case, Wolfe is clearly saying the narrator has involuntarily forgotten something \nwith that allusion, in addition to invoking the Spanish Influenza offhandedly (called the \nforgotten illness) etc etc. The point is these things point to forgetfulness of extraordinary \nevents, and the premise of the story itself is that extraordinary things will be forgotten. So, \nyes, sometimes you are just out of the loop." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I don’t agree that the name of the main character in Suzanne Delage is significant, or that it is about memory. Sure, the name is apparently that of a minor character in Proust, and Wolfe is known to like Proust. But nobody has ever, as far as I know, proposed any particular connection between the actual Proust character who bears the same name, and the character in Wolfe’s story. If the story was called Mary Macdonald, I would read it exactly the same way as I do.\n\n It does, in my opinion, require that the reader be familiar with one aspect of Western culture, the romantic love ideal, in which each person has a soulmate whom they will, it is hoped, marry and live Happily Ever After. The One In A Million. Wolfe’s story is an inversion of this trope. It is a horror story of sorts, about a man who has lived in a small town along with his Perfect Woman, and by some malign conspiracy of fate, has never encountered her in person. \n\n The scene is set at the start: ?I lay recalling.. my life. It HAS been a pleasant, though I fear a dull, and perhaps a lonely, one. ... I have twice been married, but both marriages were brief... my wives bored me ... and I bored them.\n\n Then comes the bulk of the story, in which he describes how he might have met this mysterious presence in his life on so many occasions, but never did.\n\n Finally, he sees her daughter and instantly falls in love. Note the sensual language of the passage describing her, used nowhere else in the story. And then the other shoe is dropped: ?She’s the very image of her mother at that age.\n\n Perhaps readers would be less confused if the story had been, in fact, called Mary Macdonald.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FD249800FEF4873A0B0B84ABB1C56C9@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T11:51:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9B2AC6.1030207@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But here we have kindergarten mythology leaping out at us. Echidna is \nwell know to be the mother of monsters. Typhon's and Echidna's family is \na veritable pantheon of divine monsters. The onus is on you to deny a \ntheory of how this situation came about and what it means in New Sun and \nLong Sun. You'll need to do more than sit back and yawn if you wish your \ndenials to be taken seriously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, they are given the names of divine monsters, and that accords with their behaviour, or at least the behaviour of some of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why should Wolfe care if he recasts a father as a son to create this \ndebased and pagan Olympus? You say yourself that allusions don't matter! \nWolfe is already necessarily picking and choosing among disparate \nmythologies. I see Milton's Satan in there plain as day, because Satan \nraped his daughter to produce all the sins of the world. I could go on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never heard that myth, and I also don’t know that Typhon raped Cilinia. Maybe he did, but I don’t see it in the book, and Wolfe does not write the sort of modern literature in which it is a truth universally acknowledged that a single woman who is in the possession of a fucked up nature must have been raped by her father. Also in Long Sun, as distinct from New Sun, Typhon is a Demiurge perhaps, but he is not Satan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But incest couldn't possibly happen in New Sun! No, Wolfe would avoid \nthis topic, the bread and butter of half the mythologies (and ancient \ndynasties) of the world, to avoid upsetting Gerry Quinn with the \ncovertness of its secret histories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There IS incest in New Sun — at least two major instances - and we are told about them in the story and in what characters say. Wolfe doesn’t hide silly clues in peoples? names by naming Agia and Agilus after Van and Ada, say.\n\nTell me where the story is advanced by Echidna being Typhon’s sister. And tell me why nobody, even people who knew Typhon, remarks on it ever. And tell me why, if Wolfe wants to indicate that Typhon’s family are going through the motions of replicated characters in an ancient myth, or at least one selected version of it, he spoils it by giving Typhon’s son the name of his father? \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8628AED6CCF04CC098658430F88A4A65@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T12:00:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually I think Gerry, in a moment of weakness, did concede that the Bird-of-\nthe-Woods story did map nicely to the Roman Rhea Silvia myth. Perhaps the heat\nof recent battle has driven him back to his fortified position of denial of any\nand all mythological significance in Wolfe's work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where did I ever dispute that that story is a mash-up of the story of Romulus and that of the Jungle Book, perhaps filtered through the perspective of generations unfamiliar with real animals, like those people confined in the Antechamber who displayed very similar misapprehensions? If I recall correctly, my objection was to theories that the story was all about Typhon, because of course BotNS will never be “understood” until it is boiled down to some little self-referential tangle with three or fewer actual characters...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C206C.50802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T12:32:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4FD249800FEF4873A0B0B84ABB1C56C9@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 7:51 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nBut here we have kindergarten mythology leaping out at us. Echidna is\nwell know to be the mother of monsters. Typhon's and Echidna's \nfamily is\na veritable pantheon of divine monsters. The onus is on you to deny a\ntheory of how this situation came about and what it means in New Sun \nand\nLong Sun. You'll need to do more than sit back and yawn if you wish \nyour\ndenials to be taken seriously.\nSure, they are given the names of divine monsters, and that accords \nwith their behaviour, or at least the behaviour of some of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But only the visible behavior, right? Nothing offstage, hidden from us?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why should Wolfe care if he recasts a father as a son to create this\ndebased and pagan Olympus? You say yourself that allusions don't \nmatter!\nWolfe is already necessarily picking and choosing among disparate\nmythologies. I see Milton's Satan in there plain as day, because Satan\nraped his daughter to produce all the sins of the world. I could go on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I never heard that myth, and I also don’t know that Typhon raped \nCilinia. Maybe he did, but I don’t see it in the book," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What am I supposed to say here? Gerry, you need to read more of what \nWolfe has read. Milton's Satan is a character in Paradise Lost. I won't \ncite it further.\n\nNo one said Typhon raped Cilinia, however orgiastic his inclinations. \nThe Sun series is not a police procedural." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Wolfe does not write the sort of modern literature in which it is \na truth universally acknowledged that a single woman who is in the \npossession of a fucked up nature must have been raped by her father." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps you have been reading too much of that literature, whatever it \nis. Stop." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also in Long Sun, as distinct from New Sun, Typhon is a Demiurge \nperhaps, but he is not Satan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The two are not so different as you suppose---certainly not mutually \nexclusive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But incest couldn't possibly happen in New Sun! No, Wolfe would avoid\nthis topic, the bread and butter of half the mythologies (and ancient\ndynasties) of the world, to avoid upsetting Gerry Quinn with the\ncovertness of its secret histories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There IS incest in New Sun — at least two major instances - and we are \ntold about them in the story and in what characters say. Wolfe doesn’t \nhide silly clues in peoples? names by naming Agia and Agilus after Van \nand Ada, say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone argued that Wolfe hides silly clues?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tell me where the story is advanced by Echidna being Typhon’s sister." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The potential implications have been explained over and over." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And tell me why nobody, even people who knew Typhon, remarks on it ever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would it advance the story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And tell me why, if Wolfe wants to indicate that Typhon’s family are \ngoing through the motions of replicated characters in an ancient myth," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a classic straw man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or at least one selected version of it, he spoils it by giving \nTyphon’s son the name of his father?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect he needed another god, and allowed that the pantheon designers \n(since I doubt those are their real birth names anyway) were working \nwith patchy information, like any student of mythology." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T13:35:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C206C.50802@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: And tell me why, if Wolfe wants to indicate that Typhon’s family are \ngoing through the motions of replicated characters in an ancient myth..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: This is a classic straw man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think David has a point here. Nobody has said the gods of the Whorl were exact\nreplicas of their mythological namesakes except you. All that was suggested is that \nif they explicitly share some characteristics they might implicitly share others.\n \nGerry, this seems to be your standard modus operandi. You take suggestions of\nevidence of complex possibilities and re-define them as simplistic, concrete \ncertainties, making them easy targets for criticism and derision. Which you then \nproceed to gleefully provide.\n\nWhy not give the negativity a rest? Maybe you could come up with some of your own\nunique ideas for understanding Wolfe's work. Or perhaps you could praise the ideas\nof other people that you do like. It would be a nice change of pace. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C351F.1020605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T14:01:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<8628AED6CCF04CC098658430F88A4A65@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 8:00 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually I think Gerry, in a moment of weakness, did concede that \nthe Bird-of-\nthe-Woods story did map nicely to the Roman Rhea Silvia myth. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the heat\nof recent battle has driven him back to his fortified position of \ndenial of any\nand all mythological significance in Wolfe's work.\n\nWhere did I ever dispute that that story is a mash-up of the story of \nRomulus and that of the Jungle Book, perhaps filtered through the \nperspective of generations unfamiliar with real animals, like those \npeople confined in the Antechamber who displayed very similar \nmisapprehensions? If I recall correctly, my objection was to theories \nthat the story was all about Typhon, because of course BotNS will \nnever be “understood” until it is boiled down to some little \nself-referential tangle with three or fewer actual characters..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then you're objecting to something no one said." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T14:22:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Folks,\n\nGerry Quinn is attacking ideas, not people. As far as I can recall,\nhe has only ever attacked ideas, and never people. I won't name\nnames--there should be no need--but I've repeatedly seen Mr. Quinn\npersonally attacked.\n\nPlease stop. That is disgusting. It also wastes time--or, if you\nprefer, bandwidth--that could be spent on strengthening arguments.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C3B8C.70904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T14:28:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 10:22 AM, Mark Millman wrote:\nFolks,\n\nGerry Quinn is attacking ideas, not people. As far as I can recall,\nhe has only ever attacked ideas, and never people. I won't name\nnames--there should be no need--but I've repeatedly seen Mr. Quinn\npersonally attacked.\n\nPlease stop. That is disgusting. It also wastes time--or, if you\nprefer, bandwidth--that could be spent on strengthening arguments.\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark, Gerry has only been accused of obstructionism and the creation of \nstraw men. These are the things that waste time and do not strengthen \narguments except by chance. Attacking ideas is welcome and desirable, \nbut only if those ideas actually exist in the first place.\n\nThat's hardly a personal attack." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T14:53:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C3B8C.70904@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Stockhoff," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Monday 17 October 2011, you wrote:\nFolks,\n\nGerry Quinn is attacking\nideas, not people. ?As far\nas I can recall, he has\nonly ever attacked ideas,\nand never people. ?I won't\nname names--there should\nbe no need--but I've repeat-\nedly seen Mr. Quinn per-\nsonally attacked.\n\nPlease stop. ?That is dis-\ngusting. ?It also wastes\ntime--or, if you prefer,\nbandwidth--that could be\nspent on strengthening\narguments.\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark, Gerry has only been accused of\nobstructionism and the creation of\nstraw men. These are the things that\nwaste time and do not strengthen argu-\nments except by chance. Attacking\nideas is welcome and desirable, but\nonly if those ideas actually exist in\nthe first place.\n\nThat's hardly a personal attack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have noticed more than one instance of personal phrasing. That's\nwhat makes it a personal attack. My comments stand, no matter how\npointless you may think his posts have been.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C44BA.906@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T15:07:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 10:53 AM, Mark Millman wrote:\nMr. Stockhoff,\n\nOn Monday 17 October 2011, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Folks,\n\nGerry Quinn is attacking\nideas, not people. As far\nas I can recall, he has\nonly ever attacked ideas,\nand never people. I won't\nname names--there should\nbe no need--but I've repeat-\nedly seen Mr. Quinn per-\nsonally attacked.\n\nPlease stop. That is dis-\ngusting. It also wastes\ntime--or, if you prefer,\nbandwidth--that could be\nspent on strengthening\narguments.\n\nMark Millman\nMark, Gerry has only been accused of\nobstructionism and the creation of\nstraw men. These are the things that\nwaste time and do not strengthen argu-\nments except by chance. Attacking\nideas is welcome and desirable, but\nonly if those ideas actually exist in\nthe first place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's hardly a personal attack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have noticed more than one instance of personal phrasing. That's\nwhat makes it a personal attack. My comments stand, no matter how\npointless you may think his posts have been." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark\n\nAre you sure you know what a personal attack is?\n\nYour complaint risks obscuring the real issues. If you want better \ndiscourse on this forum, then insist on it. Be specific. If you have a \npoint, present evidence. Otherwise, this is just another off-topic \nthread that increases the noise.\n\nIf you need to discuss further, I suggest that offline might be better. \nWrangling over Wolfe is one thing, but wrangling over standards of \ncivility is another." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318864142.87829.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T15:09:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<316B693D2D354CFE83048A4A96E724FA@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, October 17, 2011, 4:31 AM" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t agree that the name of the main character in Suzanne Delage is significant, or that it is about memory. Sure, the name is apparently that of a minor character in Proust, and Wolfe is known to like Proust. But nobody has ever, as far as I know, proposed any particular connection between the actual Proust character who bears the same name, and the character in Wolfe’s story. If the story was called Mary Macdonald, I would read it exactly the same way as I do.\n\nIt does, in my opinion, require that the reader be familiar with one aspect of Western culture, the romantic love ideal, in which each person has a soulmate whom they will, it is hoped, marry and live Happily Ever After. The One In A Million. Wolfe’s story is an inversion of this trope. It is a horror story of sorts, about a man who has lived in a small town along with his Perfect Woman, and by some malign conspiracy of fate, has never encountered her in person. \n\nThe scene is set at the start: ?I lay recalling.. my life. It HAS been a pleasant, though I fear a dull, and perhaps a lonely, one. ... I have twice been married, but both marriages were brief... my wives bored me ... and I bored them.\n\nThen comes the bulk of the story, in which he describes how he might have met this mysterious presence in his life on so many occasions, but never did.\n\nFinally, he sees her daughter and instantly falls in love. Note the sensual language of the passage describing her, used nowhere else in the story. And then the other shoe is dropped: ?She’s the very image of her mother at that age.\n\nPerhaps readers would be less confused if the story had been, in fact, called Mary Macdonald.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\nYou see, we disagree greatly on it because the premise of the story is, in italics, \"that every man has had in the course of his life some extraordinary experience, SOME DISLOCATION OF ALL WE EXPECT?FROM NATURE AND?PROBABILITY, of such magnited that he might in his own person serve as a living proof of Hamlet's hackneyed precept - but that he has nearly always, been so conditioned to consider himself the most mundane of creatures, that, “finding no relationship to the remainder of his life in this extraordinary experience, HE HAS FORGOTTEN IT.\" (361-362, 1st print Endangered Species)\nWe can accept this?as true in which case the narrator DOESN'T remember or can't make the connection , which would tell us why pictures of Suzanne would be cut out for scrap booking and the creepiness” of possibly encountering his own daughter, or even of spreading small pox through the sheets when he and Suzanne got it on on them, but the point is the EXTRAORDINARY EVENT CAN'T BE REMEMBERED BY THE NARRATOR, which is EXACTLY why the name of Suzanne Delage and Spanish Influenza and small pox quilts, all associated with forgotten or shameful memories, are present in the text.\n\nSo we'll just disagree on our readings, but the text says the narrator can't be trusted to relate the extraordinary event and PUTS HIS MEMORY IN QUESTION with those references. millions of people died of Spanish Influenze, and he isn't certain about what disease hit his town. His memory is faulty. He claims he has no idea what Suzanne looks like, then claims the daughter looks just like her. This is not Wolfe being lazy with details." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9C832D5AE1F44970839DBBBA57FDAA74@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T16:49:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<1318864142.87829.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \n\n --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Gerry Quinn wrote: > > I don’t agree that the name of the main character in Suzanne Delage is significant, or that it is about memory. Sure, the name is apparently that of a minor character in Proust, and Wolfe is known to like Proust. But nobody has ever, as far as I know, proposed any particular connection between the actual Proust character who bears the same name, and the character in Wolfe’s story. If the story was called Mary Macdonald, I would read it exactly the same way as I do. \n\n It does, in my opinion, require that the reader be familiar with one aspect of Western culture, the romantic love ideal, in which each person has a soulmate whom they will, it is hoped, marry and live Happily Ever After. The One In A Million. Wolfe’s story is an inversion of this trope. It is a horror story of sorts, about a man who has lived in a small town along with his Perfect Woman, and by some malign conspiracy of fate, has never encountered her in person. \n\n The scene is set at the start: ?I lay recalling.. my life. It HAS been a pleasant, though I fear a dull, and perhaps a lonely, one. ... I have twice been married, but both marriages were brief... my wives bored me ... and I bored them.\n\n Then comes the bulk of the story, in which he describes how he might have met this mysterious presence in his life on so many occasions, but never did.\n\n Finally, he sees her daughter and instantly falls in love. Note the sensual language of the passage describing her, used nowhere else in the story. And then the other shoe is dropped: ?She’s the very image of her mother at that age.\n\n Perhaps readers would be less confused if the story had been, in fact, called Mary Macdonald." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You see, we disagree greatly on it because the premise of the story is, \nin italics, \"that every man has had in the course of his life some \nextraordinary experience, SOME DISLOCATION OF ALL WE EXPECT \nFROM NATURE AND PROBABILITY, of such magnited that he might in \nhis own person serve as a living proof of Hamlet's hackneyed precept - \nbut that he has nearly always, been so conditioned to consider himself \nthe most mundane of creatures, that, finding no relationship to the \nremainder of his life in this extraordinary experience, HE HAS \nFORGOTTEN IT.\" (361-362, 1st print Endangered Species)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " That’s what the narrator *thinks* is the premise. He tries to find a memory of an extraordinary experience in his life, and cannot. Then he realises that there is one — his having lived in a small town with a girl whose name he often heard, but whom he never met." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We can accept this as true in which case the narrator DOESN'T \nremember or can't make the connection , which would tell us why \npictures of Suzanne would be cut out for scrap booking and the \ncreepiness of possibly encountering his own daughter, or even of \nspreading small pox through the sheets when he and Suzanne got it\non on them, but the point is the EXTRAORDINARY EVENT CAN'T BE \nREMEMBERED BY THE NARRATOR, which is EXACTLY why the name \nof Suzanne Delage and Spanish Influenza and small pox quilts, all \nassociated with forgotten or shameful memories, are present in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I don’t see textual evidence for any of these things. Is smallpox mentioned anywhere at all? We are told why some pictures of Suzanne were cut out like those of many others including the narrator. The Spanish Influenza was mentioned, but it was probably a much later milder epidemic than that of 1918, and the narrator is unsure what it was anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So we'll just disagree on our readings, but the text says the narrator \ncan't be trusted to relate the extraordinary event and PUTS HIS MEMORY\nIN QUESTION with those references. millions of people died of Spanish\nInfluenze, and he isn't certain about what disease hit his town. His \nmemory is faulty. He claims he has no idea what Suzanne looks like, \nthen claims the daughter looks just like her. This is not Wolfe being lazy \nwith details." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " He is *told* the daughter looks just like her. The important thing is the effect the daughter has on him. \n\n There’s no real evidence that the narrator has misremembered or forgot anything IMO — it is his interpretation that is at fault.\n\n I don’t think Wolfe is being lazy about details.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n\n\n \n\n\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318872013.19219.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T17:20:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<9C832D5AE1F44970839DBBBA57FDAA74@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, if we accept the premise that strikes the narrator, he can't remember the event. If we don't accept it at face value, his guess of never meeting Suzanne is correct. I made the connection of why she is named Suzanne Delage: the return of involuntary memories that were repressed or misunderstood on an unconscious level.\n\nThere is a plague that leaves people crippled and unable to be photographed, a crippled widow across the street,he states neither of us are crippled are invalids. His repression is working to the opposite on everything about her. He isn't even sure it's spanish influenza, which is WEIRD. His memory is faulty about events concerning her; his story of her being in the pie club and not knowing her friends doesn't add up considering the wife of his friend says of course you know whose she is, don't you etc etc.\n\nBut once again, if he forgot the extraordinary event (its in a fantasy collection remember) HE CAN'T REMEMBER IT NOR BE TRUSTED ABOUT WHAT IT REALLY IS, HE IS ONLY GUESSING ACCORDING TO THE PREMISE OF THE STORY, and incorrectly.\n\nYou tend not to believe in supernaturally unreliable narrators so let's just agree to disagree, I can't convince you of this, it is implied by the premise and the title that this story is about the unreliability of memory and the repression of supernatural events. Doesn't it suck more as a mundane story in which he never met a girl, though? Is that why he alludes to a text all about the power of forgotten memories to transform everything you believe?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T18:37:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C44BA.906@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Stockhoff," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Monday 17 October 2011, you wrote:\nMark, Gerry has only\nbeen accused of ob-\nstructionism and the\ncreation of straw men.\nThese are the things\nthat waste time and\ndo not strengthen ar-\nguments except by\nchance. Attacking\nideas is welcome and\ndesirable, but only if\nthose ideas actually\nexist in the first place.\n\nThat's hardly a per-\nsonal attack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have noticed more than one\ninstance of personal phrasing.\n?That's what makes it a per-\nsonal attack. “My comments\nstand, no matter how point-\nless you may think his posts\nhave been." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark\n\nAre you sure you know what a person-\nal attack is”" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. That's one. It questions me--in this case, my ability to\ncomprehend discourse--and not my ideas of what constitutes a personal\nattack.\n\nIf I'm moved to complain, somebody has done something wrong. If it's\nbeen inadvertent, then there's no reason not to apologize and continue\ndiscussing the issues. If it's malicious, then there's a bigger\nproblem. If it's a result of somebody's style of argument, it's\nregrettable; and I think it indicates that that person needs to\nrethink his or her approach. I have nothing more to say on this\ntopic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your complaint risks obscuring the real\nissues. If you want better discourse on\nthis forum, then insist on it. Be specific.\nIf you have a point, present evidence.\nOtherwise, this is just another off-topic\nthread that increases the noise.\n\nIf you need to discuss further," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not discussing this further. Every so often, people go off the\nrails here, and it's usually simple to get them back on. Perhaps the\ndifference is that my tolerance for it has decreased. Regardless, I'm\nthe one who has identified it and is complaining about it now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suggest that offline might be better.\nWrangling over Wolfe is one thing, but\nwrangling over standards of civility is\nanother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I indicated a problem. I made the mistake of continuing to discuss\nit, but my indicating the problem in the first place is not an\ninstance of \"wrangling\".\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C9080.7010501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T20:30:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 2:37 PM, Mark Millman wrote:\nMr. Stockhoff,\n\nOn Monday 17 October 2011, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mark\n\nAre you sure you know what a person-\nal attack is?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. That's one. It questions me--in this case, my ability to\ncomprehend discourse--and not my ideas of what constitutes a personal\nattack.\n\nIf I'm moved to complain, somebody has done something wrong. If it's\nbeen inadvertent, then there's no reason not to apologize and continue\ndiscussing the issues. If it's malicious, then there's a bigger\nproblem. If it's a result of somebody's style of argument, it's\nregrettable; and I think it indicates that that person needs to\nrethink his or her approach. I have nothing more to say on this\ntopic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your complaint risks obscuring the real\nissues. If you want better discourse on\nthis forum, then insist on it. Be specific.\nIf you have a point, present evidence.\nOtherwise, this is just another off-topic\nthread that increases the noise.\n\nIf you need to discuss further,\nI'm not discussing this further. Every so often, people go off the\nrails here, and it's usually simple to get them back on. Perhaps the\ndifference is that my tolerance for it has decreased. Regardless, I'm\nthe one who has identified it and is complaining about it now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suggest that offline might be better.\nWrangling over Wolfe is one thing, but\nwrangling over standards of civility is\nanother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I indicated a problem. I made the mistake of continuing to discuss\nit, but my indicating the problem in the first place is not an\ninstance of \"wrangling\".\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark\n\n(1) You seem to define \"personal attack\" as any questioning of your \nideas. Or is it just your idea of a \"personal attack\"?\n\n(2) You asked us to only attack ideas, implying that all else is \npersonal. Is calling someone's behavior \"disgusting\" then a personal attack?\n\n(3) And now you tell us that since you complained, a crime must have \nbeen committed. Do you realize this logic effectively leaves you in \ncharge of the forum?\n\nBoy, this is going nowhere fast.\n\nYou should know that sometimes, members who sincerely want to calm the \nforum while still participating in it have made general remarks about \nrestoring civility. They avoid pointing fingers, but they also don't \ndrop cute hints that, in effect, accuse everyone. They don't start new \nfights where before there were none. They don't come out of nowhere to \ninterrupt and impose themselves on a productive ongoing discussion. Some \nof them even strive to set an example by their calm, restraint, and \nhumility.\n\nMay I suggest you rethink your own approach?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318884444.52498.YahooMailNeo@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T20:47:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<9C832D5AE1F44970839DBBBA57FDAA74@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn gerry at bindweed.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t agree that the name of the main character in Suzanne Delage is significant, or that it is about memory. Sure, the name is apparently that of a minor ?>character in Proust, and Wolfe is known to like Proust. But nobody has ever, as far as I know, proposed any particular connection between the actual Proust >character who bears the same name, and the character in Wolfe’s story. If the story was called Mary Macdonald, I would read it exactly the same way as I do. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThe excerpt from Proust is available at the WolfeWiki\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Stories.SuzanneDelage\nand there are more resemblances than the character's name. Whether these resemblances should suggest anything about the interpretation of the story is another question.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C95F3.8080708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T20:54:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<9C832D5AE1F44970839DBBBA57FDAA74@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 12:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n--- On *Mon, 10/17/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t agree that the name of the main character in Suzanne Delage is \nsignificant, or that it is about memory. Sure, the name is apparently \nthat of a minor character in Proust, and Wolfe is known to like \nProust. But nobody has ever, as far as I know, proposed any \nparticular connection between the actual Proust character who bears \nthe same name, and the character in Wolfe’s story. If the story was \ncalled Mary Macdonald, I would read it exactly the same way as I do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Demonstrable connections between Suzanne Delage and Proust don't \nnecessarily need to be critical ones (that the story would die without) \nto be rich, or useful, or true. Nor do they need to make everything \ncrystal clear---it would be nice if they did, but art is often \ncounterintuitive." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T20:56:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C95F3.8080708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David, Gerry --\n\nI agree with both of you.\n\nKnowing about the Proust connection is not necessary for understanding\nand enjoying \"Suzanne Delage.\" However, if you do know it, it provides\na lovely additional \"easter egg\" of meaning.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/17/2011 12:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On *Mon, 10/17/11, Gerry Quinn //* wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t agree that the name of the main character in Suzanne Delage is\nsignificant, or that it is about memory. ?Sure, the name is apparently that\nof a minor character in Proust, and Wolfe is known to like Proust. ?But\nnobody has ever, as far as I know, proposed any particular connection\nbetween the actual Proust character who bears the same name, and the\ncharacter in Wolfe’s story. ?If the story was called Mary Macdonald, I would\nread it exactly the same way as I do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Demonstrable connections between Suzanne Delage and Proust don't necessarily\nneed to be critical ones (that the story would die without) to be rich, or\nuseful, or true. Nor do they need to make everything crystal clear---it\nwould be nice if they did, but art is often counterintuitive.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318886373.63122.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T21:19:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<1318884444.52498.YahooMailNeo@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nSubject: Re: (urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, October 17, 2011, 1:47 PM\nFrom: Gerry Quinn gerry at bindweed.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t agree that the name of the main character in\nSuzanne Delage is significant, or that it is about memory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, the name is apparently that of a minor ?>character\nin Proust, and Wolfe is known to like Proust. But nobody\nhas ever, as far as I know, proposed any particular\nconnection between the actual Proust >character who bears\nthe same name, and the character in Wolfe’s story. If\nthe story was called Mary Macdonald, I would read it exactly\nthe same way as I do. \n...\n\nThe excerpt from Proust is available at the WolfeWiki\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Stories.SuzanneDelage\nand there are more resemblances than the character's\nname. Whether these resemblances should suggest anything\nabout the interpretation of the story is another question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fear not, friends! For when I rewrite Suzanne Delage, line by line, what Wolfe meant merely as flat homage will once again be filled with the full spiritual power of memories unconsciously suppressed, invoking ALL of In Search of Lost Time, not merely a part. My laborious task is before me, but, like Pierre Menard, I am sure the recreation will be worthwhile.\n\n\"It is a revelation to compare Menard’s Don Quixote with Cervantes?. The latter, for example, wrote (part one, chapter nine): \n\n. . . truth, whose mother is history, rival of time, depository of deeds, witness of the past, exemplar and adviser to the present, and the future’s counselor. Written in the seventeenth century, written by the “lay genius” Cervantes, this enumeration is a mere rhetorical praise of history. Menard, on the other hand, writes: \n\n. . . truth, whose mother is history, rival of time, depository of deeds, witness of the past, exemplar and adviser to the present, and the future’s counselor. \n\nHistory, the mother of truth: the idea is astounding. Menard, a contemporary of William James, does not define history as an inquiry into reality but as its origin. Historical truth, for him, is not what has happened; it is what we judge to have happened. The final phrases exemplar and adviser to the present, and the future’s counselor ?are brazenly pragmatic. \n\nThe contrast in style is also vivid. The archaic style of Menard?quite foreign, after all suffers from a certain affectation. Not so that of his forerunner, who handles with ease the current Spanish of his time.\" [from borges, of course]\n\nFor while Wolfe's reference to Delage had little interpretive impact, and his inclusions of quilts were a mere curioustity, Aramini's, conversely, will hinge upon them. When Wolfe writes of an event so extraordinary it can't be remembered by the very being that experienced it, how the character's mundanity is revealed! But Aramini, writing the selfsame lines, has captured how extraordinary events WILL escape recollection in his characters. \n\n{Seriouosly though, there's a reason Wolfe's fiction is so open to these types of theories - he obviously elides a lot of information that at the very least hints at both natural and supernatural resolutions that linger just a bit out of grasp, and I am amazed at how frequently those elisions are quite simply seen as ... intentionally unfillable.}" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D70344C58A846599C7C37DC25BFD220@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T21:52:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<1318884444.52498.YahooMailNeo@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn gerry at bindweed.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t agree that the name > of the main character in Suzanne Delage\n is significant, or that it is about memory. Sure, the name is \napparently that of a minor ?>character in Proust, and Wolfe is \nknown to like Proust. But nobody has ever, as far as I know, proposed \nany particular connection between the actual Proust >character who \nbears the same name, and the character in Wolfe’s story. If the story \nwas called Mary Macdonald, I would read it exactly the same way as I do. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The excerpt from Proust is available at the WolfeWiki\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Stories.SuzanneDelage\nand there are more resemblances than the character's name. Whether these\nresemblances should suggest anything about the interpretation of the story\n is another question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "?I had once been due to go to a dancing lesson, and even to take a small part in a play at her parents' house. But the fear of getting a fit of giggles and a nose-bleed had at the last moment prevented me, so that I had never set eyes on her.\nI think that’s the connection. Like the girl in Wolfe’s story, the narrator (in this case the author himself) heard of the girl and should have met her, but never set eyes on her. That’s central to Wolfe’s story and to me it seems sufficient to explain the name. Probably Wolfe got the idea for his story while reading this. \nIn Proust’s narrative, however, neither the girl nor the fact of him not meeting her seem to be of any particular significance.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T22:23:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) e: memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<1318872013.19219.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, if we accept the premise that strikes the narrator, he can't\nremember the event. If we don't accept it at face value, his guess \nof never meeting Suzanne is correct. I made the connection of why \nshe is named Suzanne Delage: the return of involuntary memories \nthat were repressed or misunderstood on an unconscious level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Jerry Friedman has posted the passage from Proust. In that, Suzanne Delage is a woman Proust was meant to meet but never did. Seems like sufficient reason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a plague that leaves people crippled and unable to be \nphotographed, a crippled widow across the street,he states neither \nof us are crippled are invalids. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It leaves them *quarantined* and unable to be photographed. And who says the widow is crippled? I can’t see it anywhere!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " His repression is working to the opposite on everything about her. \nHe isn't even sure it's spanish influenza, which is WEIRD. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Not so weird even if it was the 1918 epidemic. Parents probably tried to protect their children from learning too much about it. But it could have been a later, milder flu epidemic. Maybe people overreacted to flu for a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His memory is faulty about events concerning her; his story of her \nbeing in the pie club and not knowing her friends doesn't add up \nconsidering the wife of his friend says of course you know whose \nshe is, don't you etc etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I see nothing odd here. Boys couldn’t join the pie club. His friend’s wife (who he has known all his life) was probably at school with him and Suzanne, and just assumed he knew her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But once again, if he forgot the extraordinary event (its in a fantasy\n collection remember) HE CAN'T REMEMBER IT NOR BE TRUSTED \nABOUT WHAT IT REALLY IS, HE IS ONLY GUESSING ACCORDING TO \nTHE PREMISE OF THE STORY, and incorrectly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " What he read in the book was:\n “every man has had in the course of his life some extraordinary experience, some dislocation of all we expect from nature and probability, of such magnitude that he might in his own person serve as a living proof of Hamlet’s hackneyed precept2-but that lie has, nearly always, been so conditioned to consider himself the most mundane of creatures, that, finding no relationship to the remainder of his life in this extraordinary experience, he has forgotten it”\n\n In fact, what happens in the story is not so very far from this: certainly there is a dislocation of probability, and the narrator had forgotten it until he thought about it. And at the end he still does not, perhaps, recognise the implications and how important it has been for him: that might also be considered a kind of forgetting. \n\n Just because it is in a fantasy collection doesn’t mean there have to be ghosts or vampires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You tend not to believe in supernaturally unreliable narrators so let's \njust agree to disagree, I can't convince you of this, it is implied by the \npremise and the title that this story is about the unreliability of memory \nand the repression of supernatural events. Doesn't it suck more as a \nmundane story in which he never met a girl, though? Is that why he \nalludes to a text all about the power of forgotten memories to transform \neverything you believe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The title is explained well enough by it being the name of a girl the narrator should have met but never did, just like the girl in Proust. And I don’t think the story sucks at all — in fact, I like it a lot. The best fantasy is often that which is closest to reality.\n\n - Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318906638.34228.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T02:57:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) e: memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The title is explained well enough by it being the name of a girl the narrator should have >met but never did, just like the girl in Proust. And I don’t think the story sucks at all — in >fact, I like it a lot. The best fantasy is often that which is closest to reality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. For me the question is whether the reference is synechdochic (part for whole) or purely specific to the passage naming Suzanne. If it refers to the total work, memory is a HUGE theme. If just to the section with Suzanne, then, yes, Proust having not met the girl but knowing of her is the complete reference. \n\nWhat sways it to the supernatural interpretation for me is just the strangeness of her attraction, the decimation of the town, and the premise that an explicitly \"supernatural\" event that embodies \"there are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy\" would be completely forgotten if it occurred ... which would be more like Proust's involuntary/suppressed juvenile memories than the section with Suzanne's name in it.\n\nSo I still think the reference could go either way. The very idea of completely forgetting something mentioned in the text just screams of elision (and yes, I understand the circumstance of the quote, but it does say that in the text, like Chekhov's gun, supernatural events will be forgotten)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318947163.29623.YahooMailNeo@web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T14:12:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C206C.50802@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nOn 10/17/2011 7:51 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe is already necessarily picking and choosing among disparate\nmythologies. I see Milton's Satan in there plain as day, because Satan\nraped his daughter to produce all the sins of the world. I could go on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I never heard that myth, and I also don’t know that Typhon raped Cilinia. Maybe he did, but I don’t see it in the book,\nWhat am I supposed to say here? Gerry, you need to read more of what Wolfe has read. Milton's Satan is a\ncharacter in Paradise Lost. I won't cite it further." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI admit I haven't read Paradise Lost, but I took a quick look at Book 2, lines 740-850 or so, which seemed promising. I saw where Satan had consensual sex with his daughter, Sin, and got her pregnant. Death was born (tearing through Sin's entrails) and later raped her, producing monsters. Does Satan rape her or some other daughter at some other point?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9D94D2.7070703@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-18T15:01:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1318947163.29623.YahooMailNeo@web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/18/2011 10:12 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff\nOn 10/17/2011 7:51 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wolfe is already necessarily picking and choosing among disparate\nmythologies. I see Milton's Satan in there plain as day, because Satan\nraped his daughter to produce all the sins of the world. I could go on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I never heard that myth, and I also don’t know that Typhon raped Cilinia. Maybe he did, but I don’t see it in the book,\nWhat am I supposed to say here? Gerry, you need to read more of what Wolfe has read. Milton's Satan is a\ncharacter in Paradise Lost. I won't cite it further." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nI admit I haven't read Paradise Lost, but I took a quick look at Book 2, lines 740-850 or so, which seemed promising. I saw where Satan had consensual sex with his daughter, Sin, and got her pregnant. Death was born (tearing through Sin's entrails) and later raped her, producing monsters. Does Satan rape her or some other daughter at some other point?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I too must admit I'm a little foggy on that point---I may have conflated \nthe rape with the sex and thus skipped a generation. But you get the \ngeneral idea.\n\nThis is allegorical in a way I do not expect to find repeated in Long \nSun. I'm not sure why Death + Sin = monsters, beyond that the whole \nreason Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden is that they sinned and thus \nfound mortality. Cue Pandora and her box. So this is in a sense a recap \nof the apple story with sex as the central act or event." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9DDF39.8070409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-18T20:19:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9D94D2.7070703@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/18/2011 11:01 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/18/2011 10:12 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I admit I haven't read Paradise Lost, but I took a quick look at Book \n2, lines 740-850 or so, which seemed promising. I saw where Satan \nhad consensual sex with his daughter, Sin, and got her pregnant. \nDeath was born (tearing through Sin's entrails) and later raped her, \nproducing monsters. Does Satan rape her or some other daughter at \nsome other point?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I too must admit I'm a little foggy on that point---I may have \nconflated the rape with the sex and thus skipped a generation. But you \nget the general idea.\n\nThis is allegorical in a way I do not expect to find repeated in Long \nSun. I'm not sure why Death + Sin = monsters, beyond that the whole \nreason Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden is that they sinned and \nthus found mortality. Cue Pandora and her box. So this is in a sense a \nrecap of the apple story with sex as the central act or event." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry, I'm glad I brought up PL and that you corrected me on the \npassage. Milton is probably the original fantasist (as well as \npropagandist) of English literature. Even a Catholic wouldn't dare to \nignore him in building a mythology!\n\nThinking a little further: Echidna's spawn and Sin's spawn seem to be \nroughly parallel---one may even be an imitation of the other---but one \nis based on a clear moral system and the other is not, or at least not \non one familiar to us.\n\nI'm not sure what Greek monsters really do except entertain us and \npresent us with puzzles about the intractability of the struggle of \nhuman nature vs itself and the unforgiving universe---gods too. Maybe \nthe gods were supposed to humble us by depicting exaggerated human \nweakness and simultaneously inflicting always-inventive punishments for \nthem.\n\nBut what Wolfe appears to have done is synthesize from these and \npossibly other sources to get a mythology that is comprehensive within a \nnarrow context, and as well developed as Roman state paganism in 2000 \nA.D. It's flexible enough to serve the goal of stability, in terms of \nsocial engineering, and just moral enough to highlight the inadequacy of \nits morality and ethics. It's ripe for the Outsider to reveal himself to \nand bring down.\n\n(1) Given that assumption, it is not odd to find Tartarus as Typhon's \nson and the unions of Satan + Sin, Sin + Death, and Typhon + Echidna a \nbit blurred.\n\n(2) Typhon of New Sun shows no sign of becoming Pas, but he was a good \ncandidate as an exemplary tyrannical Ruler of Worlds. If we take him as \nArchon of whatever plane of existence Urth is in (Puritans used to see \nSatan as almost the jailer/landlord of the filthy world outside church, \nand Death can be seen as the single truly immutable law of the mortal \nplane, hiding the truth of Eternal Life), then it fits for him to have \ncreated a kind of tapestry of gods to wrap around the colonists and hide \nfrom them the true nature of the Outsider and the universe.\n\n(3) Even if this pantheon and the society described by Mamelta were not \nfleshed out at the time New Sun was written, my guess is that they were \nat least conceived of. Typhon's \"I send my thought\" which is so opaquely \nsuggestive without this added information becomes much easier to read \nwith it. I no longer see any need for Typhon to be a telepathic sport. \nTelepathic, yes, but not in the way I guessed before Long Sun. Purely \nelectronic, definitely not, nor purely genetic.\n\nAnd yes, it does matter! Typhon's mindnet is as close to magic as the \nseries gets; it's beyond analysis. His genes are still superior but not \nto the degree that the Mule's would have been. (IIRC, the Mule was \nsterile anyway.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T22:13:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9DDF39.8070409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Qunn wrote:\nAndrew Mason:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The monarch repented, and everything we see of Typhon, both on Urth\nand on the Whorl, would have come after that repentance. I think it's\nclear that this monarch is Typhon, since in _Urth_ there is a specific\nreference to him as having brought the books to to the Citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where does it say that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Urth_ chapter 36 (the physician speaking):\n\n'This coast is quake-prone, as the old records indicate clearly enough\n- praise to our Monarch, by the way, for having them brought here.'" } ] }, { "message_id": "<57013B90CACE4980954712B9C9B24CA0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T23:13:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Qunn wrote:\nAndrew Mason:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The monarch repented, and everything we see of Typhon, both on Urth\nand on the Whorl, would have come after that repentance. I think it's\nclear that this monarch is Typhon, since in _Urth_ there is a specific\nreference to him as having brought the books to to the Citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where does it say that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Urth_ chapter 36 (the physician speaking):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'This coast is quake-prone, as the old records indicate clearly enough\n- praise to our Monarch, by the way, for having them brought here.'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough, though it doesn’t really give the impression that Typhon was trying to suppress knowledge. But I just found a problem:\n“Their spoil was gathered into a great heap in the city of Nessus, which was then newly built, to be burned.\nSurely Nessus was built long before the reign of Typhon”\nEither way, Typhon eventually came to appreciate the pleasures of a good book:\n\"Nessus shall be your capital, if you wish it. From your throne in Nessus you will send me tribute of fair women and boys, of the ancient devices and books, and all the good things this world of Urth produces.\"\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6F41D1213CA440ACA0E1942FDB8410AE@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T10:42:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<57013B90CACE4980954712B9C9B24CA0@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fair enough,though it doesn’t really give the impression that Typhon\n was trying to suppress knowledge. But I just found a problem:\n\n“Their spoil was gathered into a great heap in the city of Nessus, \nwhich was then newly built, to be burned.\n\nSurely Nessus was built long before the reign of Typhon”" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t mean to say this disproves Andrew’s theory: errors may have crept into the history related by Cyriaca, or Wolfe may have nodded. Certainly it’s odd that the guy should make a point about Typhon bringing records to the Citadel if it wasn’t meant to be him.\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA00926.8000903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-20T11:42:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<6F41D1213CA440ACA0E1942FDB8410AE@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/20/2011 6:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Gerry Quinn \nFair enough,though it doesn’t really give the impression that Typhon\nwas trying to suppress knowledge. But I just found a problem:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Their spoil was gathered into a great heap in the city of Nessus,\nwhich was then newly built, to be burned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Surely Nessus was built long before the reign of Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t mean to say this disproves Andrew’s theory: errors may have \ncrept into the history related by Cyriaca, or Wolfe may have nodded. \nCertainly it’s odd that the guy should make a point about Typhon \nbringing records to the Citadel if it wasn’t meant to be him.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose one could interpret that line as \"newly REbuilt\" ..... there \ncould be some conflation of names and dates in your average Urthian's \nsense of history. The origin of Nessus itself is so confused it can't be \nused for reliable dating. But Nessus should surely precede Typhon by a \nchiliad, except for the Citadel, which I'd connect with the useless \nstump of Typhon's lost fleet as well as the library.\n\nBut recall that Alexander, a precursor to Typhon, built the Library of \nAlexandria, which later burned. Ironically, if it had not been built it \nwould not have burned. Point being, a centralized library system is just \nas vulnerable and more subject to restriction than a dispersed or \nnonsystematic one. The whole story of the collection of books to burn \nthem suggests this. Typhon need not embrace universal knowledge to \ncollect all books and bury them below the ground where only he can \naccess them.\n\nAndrew, do you have evidence for the monarch's repentance? Is it \npossible that Typhon brought all remaining books to Nessus to save them, \nwhere a predecessor burned them?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA05201.1020300@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T16:53:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<6F41D1213CA440ACA0E1942FDB8410AE@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/20/2011 5:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Gerry Quinn \n > Fair enough,though it doesn’t really give the impression that Typhon\n > was trying to suppress knowledge. But I just found a problem:\n >\n > \nTheir spoil was gathered into a great heap in the city of Nessus,\n > which was then newly built, to be burned.\n >\n > Surely Nessus was built long before the reign of Typhon?\nI don’t mean to say this disproves Andrew’s theory: errors may have\ncrept into the history related by Cyriaca, or Wolfe may have nodded.\nCertainly it’s odd that the guy should make a point about Typhon\nbringing records to the Citadel if it wasn’t meant to be him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, Wolfe is a keen consumer of ancient histories where \nit is very commonplace for later rulers to accumulate misattributed \nworks of their predecessors. The same is true of more contemporary \nhistory, as witness the various Cleopatra's Needles." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA05FD2.2060605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-20T17:52:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4EA05201.1020300@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/20/2011 12:53 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/20/2011 5:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Gerry Quinn \nFair enough,though it doesn’t really give the impression that Typhon\nwas trying to suppress knowledge. But I just found a problem:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Their spoil was gathered into a great heap in the city of Nessus,\nwhich was then newly built, to be burned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Surely Nessus was built long before the reign of Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don’t mean to say this disproves Andrew’s theory: errors may have\ncrept into the history related by Cyriaca, or Wolfe may have nodded.\nCertainly it’s odd that the guy should make a point about Typhon\nbringing records to the Citadel if it wasn’t meant to be him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, Wolfe is a keen consumer of ancient histories where \nit is very commonplace for later rulers to accumulate misattributed \nworks of their predecessors. The same is true of more contemporary \nhistory, as witness the various Cleopatra's Needles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. And the more glorious the better---Napoleon, for example, \nfamously invented not only canned food but also Egyptology, the \nambulance, the submarine, and so on. (Googling the topic, I find he also \ninvented the computer and proved Napoleon's theorem, whatever that is. \nMight even be true!)\n\nHaving just read Tolkien's verse version of the Norse sagas based on \nAttila's defeat of the Burgundians, I now have a sharper appreciation of \nhow stories move around and adapt over centuries. If the records were \nthemselves lost---or they were all kept in the telepathic cloud---the \ntelescoping effect could only increase." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T19:14:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4EA05FD2.2060605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nAndrew, do you have evidence for the monarch's repentance? Is it\npossible that Typhon brought all remaining books to Nessus to save them,\nwhere a predecessor burned them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'But on the night before the burning was to begin, the autarch of the\ntime, who had never dreamed before the wild dreams of sleep but only\nwaking dreams of dominion, dreamed at last.... When morning came, he\nordered that the torches not be kindled, but that there should be a\ngreat vault built to house all the volumes and scrolls the\nwhite-robed men had gathered.' (SOTL 6.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA07683.4010401@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-20T19:29:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/20/2011 3:14 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew, do you have evidence for the monarch's repentance? Is it\npossible that Typhon brought all remaining books to Nessus to save them,\nwhere a predecessor burned them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'But on the night before the burning was to begin, the autarch of the\ntime, who had never dreamed before the wild dreams of sleep but only\nwaking dreams of dominion, dreamed at last.... When morning came, he\nordered that the torches not be kindled, but that there should be a\ngreat vault built to house all the volumes and scrolls the\nwhite-robed men had gathered.' (SOTL 6.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. I had forgotten that completely. The \"dreams of dominion\" sounds \nlike Typhon, as well as not dreaming at all.\n\nSo the monarch who gathered the books is also the monarch who planned to \nburn them and did not. Typhon is both." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T19:36:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4EA07683.4010401@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote: .\n\nBut I just found a problem:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "“Their spoil was gathered into a great heap in the city of Nessus, which was then newly built, to be burned.\nSurely Nessus was built long before the reign of Typhon”" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, clearly Cyriaca's story is not entirely accurate. After all, she\nthinks the Citadel is deserted and no one but the Autarch knows about\nit. But I think it's clear that Typhon's actions are the source of the\nstory.\n\n(Jonas, by contrast, seems to put the foundation of the Citadel much\ntoo early, before the first empire.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T20:00:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4EA05FD2.2060605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:52 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:\nExactly. And the more glorious the better---Napoleon, for example, famously\ninvented not only canned food but also Egyptology, the ambulance, the\nsubmarine, and so on. (Googling the topic, I find he also invented the\ncomputer and proved Napoleon's theorem, whatever that is. Might even be\ntrue!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't forget margarine.\n\nAnd legend has it that mayonnaise was invented _for_ Napoleon. He\nliked to have his chefs dedicate a new dish to every major town he\nconquered, and mayonnaise was the sauce in one of these. He didn't\nlike it.\n\n(Actually, mayonnaise is recorded well before N.B. began his conquests.)\n\nBut why did he hide his hand?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA07DF2.8060002@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T20:00:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/20/2011 2:36 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote: .\n\nBut I just found a problem:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "“Their spoil was gathered into a great heap in the city of Nessus, which was then newly built, to be burned.\nSurely Nessus was built long before the reign of Typhon”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, clearly Cyriaca's story is not entirely accurate. After all, she\nthinks the Citadel is deserted and no one but the Autarch knows about\nit. But I think it's clear that Typhon's actions are the source of the\nstory.\n\n(Jonas, by contrast, seems to put the foundation of the Citadel much\ntoo early, before the first empire.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The \"old port\" could date back many ages, once you establish it as a \nplace for relativistic rockets to land you have to expect late arrivals \nin later ages, and as kind of useful, low-maintenance wasteland.\n\nThe \"great vault\" can also refer to the subterranean complex that \nextends into the city and to the House Absolute." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA07EB2.1000207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-20T20:04:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/20/2011 4:00 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:52 AM, David Stockhoff\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Exactly. And the more glorious the better---Napoleon, for example, famously\ninvented not only canned food but also Egyptology, the ambulance, the\nsubmarine, and so on. (Googling the topic, I find he also invented the\ncomputer and proved Napoleon's theorem, whatever that is. Might even be\ntrue!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't forget margarine.\n\nAnd legend has it that mayonnaise was invented _for_ Napoleon. He\nliked to have his chefs dedicate a new dish to every major town he\nconquered, and mayonnaise was the sauce in one of these. He didn't\nlike it.\n\n(Actually, mayonnaise is recorded well before N.B. began his conquests.)\n\nBut why did he hide his hand?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incest!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319347528.14564.YahooMailNeo@web114708.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T05:25:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) memory and Suzanne (offshot of Typhon's nature)", "in_reply_to": "<1318872013.19219.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \n? He isn't even sure it's spanish influenza, which is WEIRD." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oddly enough, Spanish influenza has been called \"the forgotten pandemic\". And mortality caused by it varied a lot from place to place. For instance, the early form was less deadly, and where a lot of people got that, they were immune to the second, deadlier wave. See .? So it's not necessarily weird." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His memory is faulty about events concerning her; his story\nof her being in the pie club and not knowing her friends doesn't add up considering the wife of his friend says of course\nyou know whose she is, don't you etc etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm reminded of someone from my town--let's call him Steve B., since that's really his name and initial--who was a grade after me. However, I went to a private high school, so I didn't know him from our one public high school. My mother worked closely with his mother on a community organization. He then went to the same college as me. One of his roommates was one of my best friends in high school--but though we still enjoyed a chat if we ran into each other on some quad, we were in different social circles in college. He worked at the campus radio station, as did one of my roommates--but I was seldom at the station. Another of my roommates helped referee a simulation of corporate takeovers for an economics class that Steve participated in (and I told my roommate Steve's mother's name so my roommate could announce that the result of a tender offer was \"Only Mrs. X. B. of Ourtown, Ohio, sold any shares at this price\"). So someone who knew all\n this could have said, \"Of course you know who he is\"--but I've never met him.\n\nI have no reason to think meeting him would have made any significant difference in my life, and I imagine I could find a photo of him if I looked--in fact I think I've seen one--but I think our narrator's story can add up.\n\n(I can't find a picture of him on the Web, though. Hm...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But once again, if he forgot the extraordinary event (its in a fantasy collection remember) HE CAN'T REMEMBER IT NOR BE TRUSTED ABOUT WHAT IT REALLY IS, HE IS ONLY GUESSING ACCORDING TO THE PREMISE OF THE STORY, and incorrectly.\n\nYou tend not to believe in supernaturally unreliable narrators so let's just agree to disagree, I can't convince you of\nthis, it is implied by the premise and the title that this story is about the unreliability of memory and the repression of > supernatural events. Doesn't it suck more as a mundane story in which he never met a girl, though? Is that why he > alludes to a text all about the power of forgotten memories to transform everything you believe? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm inclined to think that supernatural agencies, which there's no point in speculating about, have prevented him from meeting the woman who would have changed his life. What he's forgotten is there was a person who he came so close to knowing but never met.\n\n\n(Why supernatural? The missing pictures are too much. And it's from an sf collection.)\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }