{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6066", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6066, "subject": "Father Inire", "messages": 15, "voices": 6, "first": "2011-10-12T21:01:59+00:00", "last": "2011-10-14T01:50:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T21:01:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: Im pretty sure we see Inire twice in BotNS. The crooked bent man that\nappears before the Autarch and Severian in the Secret House and the figure Severian \nsees entering the Autarchs tent near the end of Citadel is Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think those are pretty good guesses for Inire appearances. The cowled servitor does\nappear in Father Inire's wing of the House Absolute. And the appearance of the Jungle Guide\nin Citadel connects with the Father Inire letter Rudesind carries which says he has been\nin the North with the Ascians.\n \nBut both are guesses. Neither of these characters is confirmed by any other characters as\nFather Inire though it would have been easy for that to happen. Why didn't the old Autarch\ntell Severian, \"follow Father Inire to the thiasus and your acting troop.\"? Note that both \nthese characters are silent despite the fact that they serve as guides. Both characters have \ntheir faces covered. I think something deeper and more mysterious might be going on here.\n \nMoreover both these characters seem to fit the description of Father Inire being small, old \nand bent. Interestingly, this description comes from characters who are themselves small,\nold and bent, Rudesind and the old boatman (Rudesind also sharing the Inire characteristic of \nbeing monkey-like). Both Rudesind and the old boatman claim an association with Father Inire.\n\nThe Jungle Guide has a dark, metallic looking skin which is reminiscent of another jungle guy,\nIsangoma, from the Jungle Hut. Who, by chance, is also a small, old bent kind of guy. And how\ndoes Isangoma know The Bible. Is that connected to Rudesind cleaning a painting of an Apollo\nspace mission?\n \nAnd so on. There are other interesting and (for me) compelling connecting links of these guys\nto other characters. Though they aren't obvious, I am willing to consider that they represent\na collection of multiple Pan-like iterations who are getting things done in the Commonwealth\nand have been doing so for all its history. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T22:39:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What jungle guide and old boatman are you referring too? I an think\nof a few examples of both. Isangoma, as well as the others in the\njungle hut are from our time period. Robert and Marie are\nmissionaries in South America and they are teaching Isangoma the\nbible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: Im pretty sure we see Inire twice in BotNS. The crooked bent\nman that\nappears before the Autarch and Severian in the Secret House and the figure\nSeverian\nsees entering the Autarchs tent near the end of Citadel is Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think those are pretty good guesses for Inire appearances. The cowled\nservitor does\nappear in Father Inire's wing of the House Absolute. And the appearance of\nthe Jungle Guide\nin Citadel connects with the Father Inire letter Rudesind carries which says\nhe has been\nin the North with the Ascians.\n\nBut both are guesses. Neither of these characters is confirmed by any other\ncharacters as\nFather Inire though it would have been easy for that to happen. Why didn't\nthe old Autarch\ntell Severian, \"follow Father Inire to the thiasus and your acting troop.\"?\nNote that both\nthese characters are silent despite the fact that they serve as guides. Both\ncharacters have\ntheir faces covered. I think something deeper and more mysterious might be\ngoing on here.\n\nMoreover both these characters seem to fit the description of Father Inire\nbeing small, old\nand bent. Interestingly, this description comes from characters who are\nthemselves small,\nold and bent, Rudesind and the old boatman (Rudesind also sharing the Inire\ncharacteristic of\nbeing monkey-like). Both Rudesind and the old boatman claim an association\nwith Father Inire.\n\nThe Jungle Guide has a dark, metallic looking skin which is reminiscent of\nanother jungle guy,\nIsangoma, from the Jungle Hut. Who, by chance, is also a small, old bent\nkind of guy. And how\ndoes Isangoma know The Bible. Is that connected to Rudesind cleaning a\npainting of an Apollo\nspace mission?\n\nAnd so on. There are other interesting and (for me) compelling connecting\nlinks of these guys\nto other characters. Though they aren't obvious, I am willing to consider\nthat they represent\na collection of multiple Pan-like iterations who are getting things done in\nthe Commonwealth\nand have been doing so for all its history. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T22:48:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As for a collective of beings constituting Supposed Inire sightings I\nmight be able to get behind. Inire being certainly a Hierodule may\nbe able to shed parts of himself into different forms and bodies (like\nTzadkiel) and this may also explain thier Ape like features. Remember\nSeverian first describes Zaks first form as apelike." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: Im pretty sure we see Inire twice in BotNS. The crooked bent\nman that\nappears before the Autarch and Severian in the Secret House and the figure\nSeverian\nsees entering the Autarchs tent near the end of Citadel is Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think those are pretty good guesses for Inire appearances. The cowled\nservitor does\nappear in Father Inire's wing of the House Absolute. And the appearance of\nthe Jungle Guide\nin Citadel connects with the Father Inire letter Rudesind carries which says\nhe has been\nin the North with the Ascians.\n\nBut both are guesses. Neither of these characters is confirmed by any other\ncharacters as\nFather Inire though it would have been easy for that to happen. Why didn't\nthe old Autarch\ntell Severian, \"follow Father Inire to the thiasus and your acting troop.\"?\nNote that both\nthese characters are silent despite the fact that they serve as guides. Both\ncharacters have\ntheir faces covered. I think something deeper and more mysterious might be\ngoing on here.\n\nMoreover both these characters seem to fit the description of Father Inire\nbeing small, old\nand bent. Interestingly, this description comes from characters who are\nthemselves small,\nold and bent, Rudesind and the old boatman (Rudesind also sharing the Inire\ncharacteristic of\nbeing monkey-like). Both Rudesind and the old boatman claim an association\nwith Father Inire.\n\nThe Jungle Guide has a dark, metallic looking skin which is reminiscent of\nanother jungle guy,\nIsangoma, from the Jungle Hut. Who, by chance, is also a small, old bent\nkind of guy. And how\ndoes Isangoma know The Bible. Is that connected to Rudesind cleaning a\npainting of an Apollo\nspace mission?\n\nAnd so on. There are other interesting and (for me) compelling connecting\nlinks of these guys\nto other characters. Though they aren't obvious, I am willing to consider\nthat they represent\na collection of multiple Pan-like iterations who are getting things done in\nthe Commonwealth\nand have been doing so for all its history. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<27E53CB4-EF8D-48C8-8897-725783BF785F@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-10-12T23:52:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had also made a case for Inire's time travel twinning, which conversely allowed Severian to be Conciliator, Apu Punchau, etc. After all, both he and Severian (and Hethor, for example) walked the corridors of time, and time and space are bent throughout this quest with cases like Famulimus, Atrium of time, etc.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 12, 2011, at 6:48 PM, larry miller wrote:\nAs for a collective of beings constituting Supposed Inire sightings I\nmight be able to get behind. Inire being certainly a Hierodule may\nbe able to shed parts of himself into different forms and bodies (like\nTzadkiel) and this may also explain thier Ape like features. Remember\nSeverian first describes Zaks first form as apelike.\n\nOn 10/12/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "larry miller: Im pretty sure we see Inire twice in BotNS. The crooked bent\nman that\nappears before the Autarch and Severian in the Secret House and the figure\nSeverian\nsees entering the Autarchs tent near the end of Citadel is Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think those are pretty good guesses for Inire appearances. The cowled\nservitor does\nappear in Father Inire's wing of the House Absolute. And the appearance of\nthe Jungle Guide\nin Citadel connects with the Father Inire letter Rudesind carries which says\nhe has been\nin the North with the Ascians.\n\nBut both are guesses. Neither of these characters is confirmed by any other\ncharacters as\nFather Inire though it would have been easy for that to happen. Why didn't\nthe old Autarch\ntell Severian, \"follow Father Inire to the thiasus and your acting troop.\"?\nNote that both\nthese characters are silent despite the fact that they serve as guides. Both\ncharacters have\ntheir faces covered. I think something deeper and more mysterious might be\ngoing on here.\n\nMoreover both these characters seem to fit the description of Father Inire\nbeing small, old\nand bent. Interestingly, this description comes from characters who are\nthemselves small,\nold and bent, Rudesind and the old boatman (Rudesind also sharing the Inire\ncharacteristic of\nbeing monkey-like). Both Rudesind and the old boatman claim an association\nwith Father Inire.\n\nThe Jungle Guide has a dark, metallic looking skin which is reminiscent of\nanother jungle guy,\nIsangoma, from the Jungle Hut. Who, by chance, is also a small, old bent\nkind of guy. And how\ndoes Isangoma know The Bible. Is that connected to Rudesind cleaning a\npainting of an Apollo\nspace mission?\n\nAnd so on. There are other interesting and (for me) compelling connecting\nlinks of these guys\nto other characters. Though they aren't obvious, I am willing to consider\nthat they represent\na collection of multiple Pan-like iterations who are getting things done in\nthe Commonwealth\nand have been doing so for all its history. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9660A3.3060805@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T03:53:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/2011 4:01 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nNote that both\nthese characters are silent despite the fact that they serve as guides. Both characters have\ntheir faces covered. I think something deeper and more mysterious might be going on here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silent?\n\n\t\"Straight ahead,\" the cowled figure murmured. \"Follow the path through \nthe Gate of Trees. You will be safe among the players.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Jungle Guide has a dark, metallic looking skin which is reminiscent of another jungle guy,\nIsangoma, from the Jungle Hut. Who, by chance, is also a small, old bent kind of guy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where do you see this? In my copy, Isangoma is written to be naked, \ncrouching, sinewy, and to sing with a child's voice, and that's it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And how\ndoes Isangoma know The Bible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you suppose him being in a room with a woman reading scripture might \nhave something to do with it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E966133.9020801@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T03:55:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<27E53CB4-EF8D-48C8-8897-725783BF785F@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/12/2011 6:52 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI had also made a case for Inire's time travel twinning, which\nconversely allowed Severian to be Conciliator, Apu Punchau, etc.\nAfter all, both he and Severian (and Hethor, for example) walked the\ncorridors of time" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When did Hethor and Inire enter the Corridors?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T13:19:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4E966133.9020801@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 12, 2011, at 11:55 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/12/2011 6:52 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had also made a case for Inire's time travel twinning, which\nconversely allowed Severian to be Conciliator, Apu Punchau, etc.\nAfter all, both he and Severian (and Hethor, for example) walked the\ncorridors of time" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When did Hethor and Inire enter the Corridors?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am a paranoid reader who thinks Fechin is Inire, for one.\n\nAnd as the one who built the botanical gardens, inire's wizardly predisposition suggest a mastery of the corridors, and makes it rather easy for me to believe that he not only taught Severian how to use the mirrors, but also traveled through them himself.\n\nAnd I had figured Hethor came through time on his travels where he acquired his pets and poppets. The shops do seem to move out of sync with time, though I could be mistaken." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T13:40:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: What jungle guide and old boatman are you referring too? I an think\nof a few examples of both. Isangoma, as well as the others in the\njungle hut are from our time period. Robert and Marie are\nmissionaries in South America and they are teaching Isangoma the\nbible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Jungle Guide is the little guy in the mask, the shaman, who leads Vodalus' group\nthrough the jungle after leaving the ziggurat (\"isangoma\" is an African word for shaman).\nIt may be he whom Severian catches a glimpse of going into the old Autarch's tent.\n \nRobert and Marie are (roughly) from our time/place. So is a picture of an Apollo \nmoon landing. For me a red flag goes up when stuff from our Earth appears on Urth,\nespecially when associated with little, old guys.\n \nGenerally, I think if we are looking for Father Inire (and many are not), a good start \nis finding little, bent old guys in places we might expect to see him (like the Citadel, \nHouse Absolute and Botanic Garden).\n \nLike Isangoma, the old boatman is found in the Botanic Garden. He is poling around\nlooking for the body of his dead wife, Cas, whom we later discover is Dorcas. This bent,\nold little guy says he was there when Father Inire planted the averns to keep out the \nmanatees (undines) and I think he was.\n \nIf the old boatman is a version of Inire and he is also the husband of Dorcas, it leads \nto the strange conclusion of Inire being Severian's grandfather. It could help\nexplain why he is titled \"Father\" without him having any apparent religious function.\n \nOn the other hand, if we consider Severian to be a sort of analog of Greek and other\nmythological heroes such as Heracles and Theseus, being the half-breed product of a\nhuman-god mating isn't quite as strange to contemplate.\n \nI don't think it is a coincidence that the old boatman mentions undines and Dorcas and\nSeverian then soon encounters both, and then he meets Hildegren (who might deserve his \nown discussion) who happens to mention the Cumaean. I tend to think Severian is being\nherded through this story at every turn by not-quite-human beings who know more than \nhe does. However, Severian possessess a certain knowledge/ability these guys don't have\nbut would very much like to have. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T14:16:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: As to the identity with Inire, there are two clues - that the jungle\nguide, as Lee says, looks like Isangoma, and that Isangoma is talking\nabout fish just after Severian has told a story about Inire and fish.\nSeverian is not yet Thecla at this point, so would not recognise\nInire, as he would have done if he had met him later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGood points, Andrew. But we must remember that Severian is writing his story after\nbeing both Thecla and becoming Autarch. He surely knows most if not all of the places \nwhere Father Inire is appearing in his story in disguise and he could be identifying him \nfor us if he wanted to. But he doesn't.\n\nOf course part of the reason is Wolfe's literary trope of creating mystery via an unreliable \nnarrator. But I would hope there is also a plot purpose to Severian's unreliable reporting \nto us and I think there is.\n \nSeverian never comes right out and tells us that Dorcas is his grandmother, just as Agilus\nnever quite openly admits that he and Agia are sexually involved. As a narrator, Severian\nseems to have some sense of shame and embarassment, especially when it involves family\nmatters. Thus his family remains a central mystery in the story. I think the Dorcas (and \nCatherine and Severa) examples show us that Severian knows more than he purposefully reveals \nto us. But Wolfe does allow his narrator to slip here and there and inadvertently drop hints \nfor us regarding who's who.\n \nAnyway, I think that is the reason we can assume Severian is reticent regarding Father Inire.\nThere are some family matters involved there that he hopes to say as little as possible about. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9BAB169A-C833-479B-B9FB-B6989EC18DDB@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T14:39:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOf course part of the reason is Wolfe's literary trope of creating mystery via an unreliable \nnarrator. But I would hope there is also a plot purpose to Severian's unreliable reporting \nto us and I think there is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Lee, as with the moon man painting, Severian the Autarch may not even know what it was. Same goes for his encounters with people he should recognize.\n\nHowever, we do see that in this memoir, Severian does indeed play the detective. When he recognizes the badger, when he realizes he is in a time loop and not the first Severian, when he realizes the claw as the thorn from back when.\n\nJust because he doesn't solve all of the riddles and mysteries about him doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to.\n\nI would imagine and hope Wolfe wanted us to find things Severian missed or misinterpreted, since that is the fun of following a flawed narrator, we can have our \"Ah, HA!\" moments and pay ourselves on the back. Moments where we can think, \"No, dummy, don't you SEE!?\"\n\nOf course it is Wolfe who holds the cards and smirks while we have those moments, even if we sometimes think we do. Severian certainly does not. That is the genius of Wolfe's writing.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318518300.91956.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T15:05:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<9BAB169A-C833-479B-B9FB-B6989EC18DDB@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 10/13/11, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nFrom: Ryan Dunn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 7:39 AM\n\n\nHowever, we do see that in this memoir, Severian does\nindeed play the detective. When he recognizes the badger,\nwhen he realizes he is in a time loop and not the first\nSeverian, when he realizes the claw as the thorn from back\nwhen.\n\nJust because he doesn't solve all of the riddles and\nmysteries about him doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to.\n\nI would imagine and hope Wolfe wanted us to find things\nSeverian missed or misinterpreted, since that is the fun of\nfollowing a flawed narrator, we can have our \"Ah, HA!\"\nmoments and pay ourselves on the back. Moments where we can\nthink, \"No, dummy, don't you SEE!?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because of his passive confidence in his memory, I'm not sure a lot of Severian's weird conclusions are correct. He's looking his father in the face and says nothing about it, but then comes up with a theory about multiple severian's, then winds up actually going back and being the original apu-punchau and conciliator (whom Typhon DOES recognize: if you bow before me, HE will too when he comes [irony]), undercutting that Severian multiplication. \n\n(of course, the skull that might be his under the river gyoll DOESN'T undercut it, but that's just weird (head exploding thinking about it, and scenes like, I felt as I looked at Master Ultan that we were both drowned underwater and long dead ... what?)\n\nThis is why I never trusted his, \"Oh, yeah, Miles is Jonas. Yeah, he remembered his name was Miles\" or whatever happened in that scene, when somewhere in a vision he sees a woman's face - don't know if his guess was accurate there or not. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T15:12:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "<1318518300.91956.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: But Lee, as with the moon man painting, Severian the Autarch may not \neven know what it was. Same goes for his encounters with people he should recognize.\nHowever, we do see that in this memoir, Severian does indeed play the detective. \nWhen he recognizes the badger, when he realizes he is in a time loop and not the \nfirst Severian, when he realizes the claw as the thorn from back when. Just because \nhe doesn't solve all of the riddles and mysteries about him doesn't mean we shouldn't \nbe able to. I would imagine and hope Wolfe wanted us to find things Severian missed \nor misinterpreted, since that is the fun of following a flawed narrator, we can have our \n\"Ah, HA!\" moments and pay ourselves on the back. Moments where we can think, \"No, dummy, \ndon't you SEE!?\"Of course it is Wolfe who holds the cards and smirks while we have those \nmoments, even if we sometimes think we do. Severian certainly does not. That is the genius \nof Wolfe's writing.\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan, I think we are basically in agreement. I don't think we can always tells where \nSeverian's unreliability is due to him being deliberately deceptive or just that he\nis a bit dense.\n \nStill, Severian mentions a few times in the text what a big liar he is and that used\nto confuse me since he seems quite honest in his dealings with the other characters in the \nstory. I've come to conclude that his admission of guilt is because the biggest recipient \nof his lies are his readers. Severian finds this regrettable but necessary and I still think \nhis primary motivation for lying to or misleading us is to avoid openly airing his family's \ndirty laundry.\n \nWhat I find fascinating is what this might say about Gene Wolfe and how he views his own\nlife, his writing and his readers. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318518986.97038.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T15:16:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) skull underwater", "in_reply_to": "<1318518300.91956.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "my previous post reminded me - is that skull underwater supposed to hint that Sev has been an eidolon from the very very beginning or what? I don't like the \"Sev lives his normal life\" then somehow attracts interlopers into his timeline to make him autarch and the paragon of his race when indeed without that special nature to capture the attention of the powers that be (or be not), Juturna would have just let him drown in Gyoll (and he would be only that skull) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318519275.89906.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T15:21:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Thu, 10/13/11, Lee Berman wrote:\nWhat I find fascinating is what this might say about Gene\nWolfe and how he views his own\nlife, his writing and his readers. ???\n????" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been my experience he lies to everyone [except me, of course]. (That's a joke. I'm not really serious - he's a cagey and sly fellow but I think he is much more kind and trustworthy than his narrators [except for a few special sensitive topics]). \n\nFor sure he takes some small joy in confusing careless people, but I don't think it's malicious." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E979569.7060704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T01:50:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/13/2011 9:19 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Oct 12, 2011, at 11:55 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/12/2011 6:52 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I had also made a case for Inire's time travel twinning, which\nconversely allowed Severian to be Conciliator, Apu Punchau, etc.\nAfter all, both he and Severian (and Hethor, for example) walked the\ncorridors of time\nWhen did Hethor and Inire enter the Corridors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am a paranoid reader who thinks Fechin is Inire, for one.\n\nAnd as the one who built the botanical gardens, inire's wizardly predisposition suggest a mastery of the corridors, and makes it rather easy for me to believe that he not only taught Severian how to use the mirrors, but also traveled through them himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depending on exactly how the mirrors work, time dilation from frequent \ntravel through them could explain Inire's stated apparent longevity for \nhis short-lived species. Which, btw, could just as well be Homo sapiens \nas far as that goes." } ] } ] }