{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6068", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6068, "subject": "Faterh Inire", "messages": 114, "voices": 16, "first": "2011-10-13T13:05:25+00:00", "last": "2011-10-22T16:54:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T13:05:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larry Miller wrote:\n\nWhat jungle guide and old boatman are you referring too? ?I an think\nof a few examples of both." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "?The jungle guide is the masked figure who leads Vodalus and party\nthrough the jungle in COTA, and occasionally disappears into the\nAutarch's litter to talk to him. The old boatman is Dorcas's husband.\n\nI agree that the jungle guide is probably Inire. I don't accept most\nof the other identifications, because I don't think Inire is a\nshape-shifter (except, possibly, that he can turn himself into a\ntiger), so anyone Severian sees full-face can't be him (or, strictly,\nmore than one person can't, see below). On his two most certain\nappearances he is either hooded or masked. He seems to belong to the\nsame species as Barbatus and Famulimus, who are also masked.\n\n Isangoma, as well as the others in the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "jungle hut are from our time period. Robert and Marie are\nmissionaries in South America and they are teaching Isangoma the\nbible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do think Isangoma might be Inire. The jungle hut scene is later\ncompared to the Apu-Punchau scene. That suggests that what is\nhappening is the recalling of a spirit from the past. We can read it\nlike this:\nRobert = Apu-Punchau, the recalled spirit.\nMarie = the inhabitants of the stone town, part of the scene, existing\nin the spirit's mind.\nIsangoma = the Cumaean, the magician who is recalling him.\n\nThis explains why Robert and Isangoma can see Severian and Agia, but\nMarie cannot.\n\n'Isangoma' is an African name, yet he does not look African, but South\nAmerican. This suggests he is not a real part of Robert's life, but is\nplaying a part.\n\nAs to the identity with Inire, there are two clues - that the jungle\nguide, as Lee says, looks like Isangoma, and that Isangoma is talking\nabout fish just after Severian has told a story about Inire and fish.\n\nSeverian is not yet Thecla at this point, so would not recognise\nInire, as he would have done if he had met him later." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T19:34:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The jungle guide is definetly Inire. Dorcas husband and Isangoma on\nthe other hand Id have to disagree with you. Isangoma along with\nRobert and Marie are just people from our time being observed by\nSeverian and Agia. Inire being Dorcas husband makes no sense to me\nbut Id love to hear any thoughts you have on why you think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/13/11, Andrew Mason wrote:\nLarry Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What jungle guide and old boatman are you referring too? ?I an think\nof a few examples of both." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?The jungle guide is the masked figure who leads Vodalus and party\nthrough the jungle in COTA, and occasionally disappears into the\nAutarch's litter to talk to him. The old boatman is Dorcas's husband.\n\nI agree that the jungle guide is probably Inire. I don't accept most\nof the other identifications, because I don't think Inire is a\nshape-shifter (except, possibly, that he can turn himself into a\ntiger), so anyone Severian sees full-face can't be him (or, strictly,\nmore than one person can't, see below). On his two most certain\nappearances he is either hooded or masked. He seems to belong to the\nsame species as Barbatus and Famulimus, who are also masked.\n\n Isangoma, as well as the others in the\njungle hut are from our time period. Robert and Marie are\nmissionaries in South America and they are teaching Isangoma the\nbible.\n\nI do think Isangoma might be Inire. The jungle hut scene is later\ncompared to the Apu-Punchau scene. That suggests that what is\nhappening is the recalling of a spirit from the past. We can read it\nlike this:\nRobert = Apu-Punchau, the recalled spirit.\nMarie = the inhabitants of the stone town, part of the scene, existing\nin the spirit's mind.\nIsangoma = the Cumaean, the magician who is recalling him.\n\nThis explains why Robert and Isangoma can see Severian and Agia, but\nMarie cannot.\n\n'Isangoma' is an African name, yet he does not look African, but South\nAmerican. This suggests he is not a real part of Robert's life, but is\nplaying a part.\n\nAs to the identity with Inire, there are two clues - that the jungle\nguide, as Lee says, looks like Isangoma, and that Isangoma is talking\nabout fish just after Severian has told a story about Inire and fish.\n\nSeverian is not yet Thecla at this point, so would not recognise\nInire, as he would have done if he had met him later.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-13T22:46:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: The jungle guide is definetly Inire. Dorcas husband " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Isangoma on the other hand Id have to disagree with you. Isangoma " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "along with Robert and Marie are just people from our time being observed " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "by Severian and Agia. Inire being Dorcas husband makes no sense to me\nbut Id love to hear any thoughts you have on why you think so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWell, I think I am willing to pursue Father Inire further than anyone else\n\nin the world (except, perhaps, Gene Wolfe and he ain't talkin').\n\n \n\nAt the risk of sounding argumentative, which I don't want to be, I'm curious\n\nabout your skepticism regarding Isangoma. Sure that trio is put there for \n\nto be observed by Severian (not Agia, I think she is a pawn with different\n\npurposes). But why? And what serves to link Urth and Earth if not Father Inire?\n\nPlus we have a jungle shaman who is Inire and an \"Isangoma\", which means shaman,\n\nin a Jungle Hut, both with dark, metallic skin. The connection is pretty strong \n\nfor me.\n\n \n\nDorcas' husband being Father Inire is surely a difficult leap of faith few are \n\nwilling to make. I was willing because I was looking. None of the bits of \n\nevidence are compelling by themselves. It only makes sense, like a jigsaw puzzle,\n\nif you identify each piece with other pieces around it.\n\n \n\nSo, to start, when an small, old, bent man with a wry neck says Father Inire is a \n\nsmall, old bent man with a wry neck I have to start wondering about his identity. \n\nWhen Dorcas' husband says he was there when Father Inire planted the averns, \n\nperhaps he doesn't mean he was simply watching.\n\n \n\nJust before the Jungle Hut, Severian tells Agia a Father Inire story which seems\n\nto suggest he has a somewhat creepy fascination with young girls (surely a Lewis\n\nCarroll reference, especially when paired with mirrors). I think the consensus for\n\nDorcas'age when she first gave birth was about 15, so that might qualify Dorcas'\n\nhusband as being similar in that regard.\n\n \n\nSome other non-human literary characters who had a fascination with young human\n\nwomen were the ancient Greek and Roman gods. They were always falling in love or\n\nlust and changing their form so they could mate with some young ingenue. The \n\noffspring of such mixed-race matings were usually demi-gods or heroes. I think \n\nthis analogy helps us to understand why Severian is inexplicably special in this\n\nstory. Like a Greek hero he falls into fantastic adventure after adventure. He\n\ndoesn't always win but nothing seems to be able to kill him and he has special\n\npowers which we eventually find out originate in him, not a blue jewel.\n\n \n\nAnyway, similar collections of evidence can be used to identify other possible Inire\n\niterations. I mentioned Hethor in a recent post. Fechin and Ceryx are two other\n\noft-discussed possibilities. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9773E8.8050609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-13T23:27:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/13/2011 6:46 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: The jungle guide is definetly Inire. Dorcas husband\nand Isangoma on the other hand Id have to disagree with you. Isangoma\nalong with Robert and Marie are just people from our time being observed\nby Severian and Agia. Inire being Dorcas husband makes no sense to me\nbut Id love to hear any thoughts you have on why you think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I think I am willing to pursue Father Inire further than anyone else\n\nin the world (except, perhaps, Gene Wolfe and he ain't talkin').\n\n\n\nAt the risk of sounding argumentative, which I don't want to be, I'm curious\n\nabout your skepticism regarding Isangoma. Sure that trio is put there for\n\nto be observed by Severian (not Agia, I think she is a pawn with different\n\npurposes). But why? And what serves to link Urth and Earth if not Father Inire?\n\nPlus we have a jungle shaman who is Inire and an \"Isangoma\", which means shaman,\n\nin a Jungle Hut, both with dark, metallic skin. The connection is pretty strong\n\nfor me.\n\n\n\nDorcas' husband being Father Inire is surely a difficult leap of faith few are\n\nwilling to make. I was willing because I was looking. None of the bits of\n\nevidence are compelling by themselves. It only makes sense, like a jigsaw puzzle,\n\nif you identify each piece with other pieces around it.\n\n\n\nSo, to start, when an small, old, bent man with a wry neck says Father Inire is a\n\nsmall, old bent man with a wry neck I have to start wondering about his identity.\n\nWhen Dorcas' husband says he was there when Father Inire planted the averns,\n\nperhaps he doesn't mean he was simply watching." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you have a page or a quote for this? I'd like to read that passage. I \nagree that these two clues are classic Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just before the Jungle Hut, Severian tells Agia a Father Inire story which seems\n\nto suggest he has a somewhat creepy fascination with young girls (surely a Lewis\n\nCarroll reference, especially when paired with mirrors). I think the consensus for\n\nDorcas'age when she first gave birth was about 15, so that might qualify Dorcas'\n\nhusband as being similar in that regard.\n\n\n\nSome other non-human literary characters who had a fascination with young human\n\nwomen were the ancient Greek and Roman gods. They were always falling in love or\n\nlust and changing their form so they could mate with some young ingenue. The\n\noffspring of such mixed-race matings were usually demi-gods or heroes. I think\n\nthis analogy helps us to understand why Severian is inexplicably special in this\n\nstory. Like a Greek hero he falls into fantastic adventure after adventure. He\n\ndoesn't always win but nothing seems to be able to kill him and he has special\n\npowers which we eventually find out originate in him, not a blue jewel.\n\n\n\nAnyway, similar collections of evidence can be used to identify other possible Inire\n\niterations. I mentioned Hethor in a recent post. Fechin and Ceryx are two other\n\noft-discussed possibilities. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T00:21:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dont worry about sounding argumentative, this is a discussion group\nafter all. Robert and Marie are most likely the real missionaries\nRobert and Marie Moffat who went to Africa. As you noted Isangoma is\nan african name (zulu for sorcerer), therefore Isangoma is probably\none of thier students. These people existed during our time so how\ncould this be Inire? And if it is him what would he be doing in Africa\nlearning the bible? Again if you or anyone else can answer these\nquestions or have any evidence to back up your theories post them. I\nam very interested in anyones take on the book and would love nothing\nmore than to examine and pursue other lines of thinking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/13/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: The jungle guide is definetly Inire. Dorcas husband" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and Isangoma on the other hand Id have to disagree with you. Isangoma" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "along with Robert and Marie are just people from our time being observed" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "by Severian and Agia. Inire being Dorcas husband makes no sense to me\nbut Id love to hear any thoughts you have on why you think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I think I am willing to pursue Father Inire further than anyone else\n\nin the world (except, perhaps, Gene Wolfe and he ain't talkin').\n\n\n\nAt the risk of sounding argumentative, which I don't want to be, I'm curious\n\nabout your skepticism regarding Isangoma. Sure that trio is put there for\n\nto be observed by Severian (not Agia, I think she is a pawn with different\n\npurposes). But why? And what serves to link Urth and Earth if not Father\nInire?\n\nPlus we have a jungle shaman who is Inire and an \"Isangoma\", which means\nshaman,\n\nin a Jungle Hut, both with dark, metallic skin. The connection is pretty\nstrong\n\nfor me.\n\n\n\nDorcas' husband being Father Inire is surely a difficult leap of faith few\nare\n\nwilling to make. I was willing because I was looking. None of the bits of\n\nevidence are compelling by themselves. It only makes sense, like a jigsaw\npuzzle,\n\nif you identify each piece with other pieces around it.\n\n\n\nSo, to start, when an small, old, bent man with a wry neck says Father Inire\nis a\n\nsmall, old bent man with a wry neck I have to start wondering about his\nidentity.\n\nWhen Dorcas' husband says he was there when Father Inire planted the averns,\n\nperhaps he doesn't mean he was simply watching.\n\n\n\nJust before the Jungle Hut, Severian tells Agia a Father Inire story which\nseems\n\nto suggest he has a somewhat creepy fascination with young girls (surely a\nLewis\n\nCarroll reference, especially when paired with mirrors). I think the\nconsensus for\n\nDorcas'age when she first gave birth was about 15, so that might qualify\nDorcas'\n\nhusband as being similar in that regard.\n\n\n\nSome other non-human literary characters who had a fascination with young\nhuman\n\nwomen were the ancient Greek and Roman gods. They were always falling in\nlove or\n\nlust and changing their form so they could mate with some young ingenue. The\n\noffspring of such mixed-race matings were usually demi-gods or heroes. I\nthink\n\nthis analogy helps us to understand why Severian is inexplicably special in\nthis\n\nstory. Like a Greek hero he falls into fantastic adventure after adventure.\nHe\n\ndoesn't always win but nothing seems to be able to kill him and he has\nspecial\n\npowers which we eventually find out originate in him, not a blue jewel.\n\n\n\nAnyway, similar collections of evidence can be used to identify other\npossible Inire\n\niterations. I mentioned Hethor in a recent post. Fechin and Ceryx are two\nother\n\noft-discussed possibilities. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E978D6C.4050402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T01:16:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For one thing, it has been noted that the Moffats lived before air \ntravel, yet there is a plane. This and other twists (more than I can now \nrecall) make the scene more and less than it appears. Is the scene from \nUrth's past? Our \"present\"? Or another \"iteration\" of Earth/Urth?\n\nOr is it a scene of spirits called up by Inire, who built the Gardens \nand therefore has at least some control over time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/13/2011 8:21 PM, larry miller wrote:\nDont worry about sounding argumentative, this is a discussion group\nafter all. Robert and Marie are most likely the real missionaries\nRobert and Marie Moffat who went to Africa. As you noted Isangoma is\nan african name (zulu for sorcerer), therefore Isangoma is probably\none of thier students. These people existed during our time so how\ncould this be Inire? And if it is him what would he be doing in Africa\nlearning the bible? Again if you or anyone else can answer these\nquestions or have any evidence to back up your theories post them. I\nam very interested in anyones take on the book and would love nothing\nmore than to examine and pursue other lines of thinking.\n\nOn 10/13/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "larry miller: The jungle guide is definetly Inire. Dorcas husband\nand Isangoma on the other hand Id have to disagree with you. Isangoma\nalong with Robert and Marie are just people from our time being observed\nby Severian and Agia. Inire being Dorcas husband makes no sense to me\nbut Id love to hear any thoughts you have on why you think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I think I am willing to pursue Father Inire further than anyone else\n\nin the world (except, perhaps, Gene Wolfe and he ain't talkin').\n\n\n\nAt the risk of sounding argumentative, which I don't want to be, I'm curious\n\nabout your skepticism regarding Isangoma. Sure that trio is put there for\n\nto be observed by Severian (not Agia, I think she is a pawn with different\n\npurposes). But why? And what serves to link Urth and Earth if not Father\nInire?\n\nPlus we have a jungle shaman who is Inire and an \"Isangoma\", which means\nshaman,\n\nin a Jungle Hut, both with dark, metallic skin. The connection is pretty\nstrong\n\nfor me.\n\n\n\nDorcas' husband being Father Inire is surely a difficult leap of faith few\nare\n\nwilling to make. I was willing because I was looking. None of the bits of\n\nevidence are compelling by themselves. It only makes sense, like a jigsaw\npuzzle,\n\nif you identify each piece with other pieces around it.\n\n\n\nSo, to start, when an small, old, bent man with a wry neck says Father Inire\nis a\n\nsmall, old bent man with a wry neck I have to start wondering about his\nidentity.\n\nWhen Dorcas' husband says he was there when Father Inire planted the averns,\n\nperhaps he doesn't mean he was simply watching.\n\n\n\nJust before the Jungle Hut, Severian tells Agia a Father Inire story which\nseems\n\nto suggest he has a somewhat creepy fascination with young girls (surely a\nLewis\n\nCarroll reference, especially when paired with mirrors). I think the\nconsensus for\n\nDorcas'age when she first gave birth was about 15, so that might qualify\nDorcas'\n\nhusband as being similar in that regard.\n\n\n\nSome other non-human literary characters who had a fascination with young\nhuman\n\nwomen were the ancient Greek and Roman gods. They were always falling in\nlove or\n\nlust and changing their form so they could mate with some young ingenue. The\n\noffspring of such mixed-race matings were usually demi-gods or heroes. I\nthink\n\nthis analogy helps us to understand why Severian is inexplicably special in\nthis\n\nstory. Like a Greek hero he falls into fantastic adventure after adventure.\nHe\n\ndoesn't always win but nothing seems to be able to kill him and he has\nspecial\n\npowers which we eventually find out originate in him, not a blue jewel.\n\n\n\nAnyway, similar collections of evidence can be used to identify other\npossible Inire\n\niterations. I mentioned Hethor in a recent post. Fechin and Ceryx are two\nother\n\noft-discussed possibilities. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T01:47:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4E978D6C.4050402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your right about when the Moffats lived. I had forgotten all about\nthe plane I think your dead on regarding the nature of the Botanic\nGardens. Father Inire built them and each garden seems to be a\nseperate pocket universe containing different time periods. Maybe the\n plane just phases in because it will one day fly over that area\npreserved in the garden, like interference in whatever signal is\ncarrying that time forward to Urth? Just a thought." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/13/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nFor one thing, it has been noted that the Moffats lived before air\ntravel, yet there is a plane. This and other twists (more than I can now\nrecall) make the scene more and less than it appears. Is the scene from\nUrth's past? Our \"present\"? Or another \"iteration\" of Earth/Urth?\n\nOr is it a scene of spirits called up by Inire, who built the Gardens\nand therefore has at least some control over time?\n\nOn 10/13/2011 8:21 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dont worry about sounding argumentative, this is a discussion group\nafter all. Robert and Marie are most likely the real missionaries\nRobert and Marie Moffat who went to Africa. As you noted Isangoma is\nan african name (zulu for sorcerer), therefore Isangoma is probably\none of thier students. These people existed during our time so how\ncould this be Inire? And if it is him what would he be doing in Africa\nlearning the bible? Again if you or anyone else can answer these\nquestions or have any evidence to back up your theories post them. I\nam very interested in anyones take on the book and would love nothing\nmore than to examine and pursue other lines of thinking.\n\nOn 10/13/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "larry miller: The jungle guide is definetly Inire. Dorcas husband\nand Isangoma on the other hand Id have to disagree with you. Isangoma\nalong with Robert and Marie are just people from our time being observed\nby Severian and Agia. Inire being Dorcas husband makes no sense to me\nbut Id love to hear any thoughts you have on why you think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, I think I am willing to pursue Father Inire further than anyone\nelse\n\nin the world (except, perhaps, Gene Wolfe and he ain't talkin').\n\n\n\nAt the risk of sounding argumentative, which I don't want to be, I'm\ncurious\n\nabout your skepticism regarding Isangoma. Sure that trio is put there for\n\nto be observed by Severian (not Agia, I think she is a pawn with\ndifferent\n\npurposes). But why? And what serves to link Urth and Earth if not Father\nInire?\n\nPlus we have a jungle shaman who is Inire and an \"Isangoma\", which means\nshaman,\n\nin a Jungle Hut, both with dark, metallic skin. The connection is pretty\nstrong\n\nfor me.\n\n\n\nDorcas' husband being Father Inire is surely a difficult leap of faith\nfew\nare\n\nwilling to make. I was willing because I was looking. None of the bits of\n\nevidence are compelling by themselves. It only makes sense, like a jigsaw\npuzzle,\n\nif you identify each piece with other pieces around it.\n\n\n\nSo, to start, when an small, old, bent man with a wry neck says Father\nInire\nis a\n\nsmall, old bent man with a wry neck I have to start wondering about his\nidentity.\n\nWhen Dorcas' husband says he was there when Father Inire planted the\naverns,\n\nperhaps he doesn't mean he was simply watching.\n\n\n\nJust before the Jungle Hut, Severian tells Agia a Father Inire story\nwhich\nseems\n\nto suggest he has a somewhat creepy fascination with young girls (surely\na\nLewis\n\nCarroll reference, especially when paired with mirrors). I think the\nconsensus for\n\nDorcas'age when she first gave birth was about 15, so that might qualify\nDorcas'\n\nhusband as being similar in that regard.\n\n\n\nSome other non-human literary characters who had a fascination with young\nhuman\n\nwomen were the ancient Greek and Roman gods. They were always falling in\nlove or\n\nlust and changing their form so they could mate with some young ingenue.\nThe\n\noffspring of such mixed-race matings were usually demi-gods or heroes. I\nthink\n\nthis analogy helps us to understand why Severian is inexplicably special\nin\nthis\n\nstory. Like a Greek hero he falls into fantastic adventure after\nadventure.\nHe\n\ndoesn't always win but nothing seems to be able to kill him and he has\nspecial\n\npowers which we eventually find out originate in him, not a blue jewel.\n\n\n\nAnyway, similar collections of evidence can be used to identify other\npossible Inire\n\niterations. I mentioned Hethor in a recent post. Fechin and Ceryx are\ntwo\nother\n\noft-discussed possibilities. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T02:11:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: Dont worry about sounding argumentative, this is a discussion group\nafter all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nokay! though there have been times in the past where the discussion got nasty and\n\neven personally disrespectful to some contributors. It's been my personal goal to\n\ntry to steer away from that trend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: For one thing, it has been noted that the Moffats lived before air \ntravel, yet there is a plane. This and other twists (more than I can now \nrecall) make the scene more and less than it appears. Is the scene from \nUrth's past? Our \"present\"? Or another \"iteration\" of Earth/Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or is it a scene of spirits called up by Inire, who built the Gardens \nand therefore has at least some control over time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI agree with David. He is good at distilling the essential points from years of \n\nprevious discussion. I would only add that we might all agree that if nothing\n\nelse, Father Inire is a scholar, interested in collecting knowledge from other \n\nplaces and times. I'm sure this was Wolfe's intention for having him visit Africa and \n\npeople of earth from roughly our own time frame (if Isangoma is Inire).\n\n \n\nRegarding the idea of another \"iteration\" of Earth/Urth, I'm thinking it might be good\n\nto ensure that larry is aware of this interpretation of BotNS. My own best evidence of\n\nthis comes from Gene Wolfe himself, from the James Jordan interview \n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our universe? Or is that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a universe that resurrected saints have set up in the world to come as part of the cities " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that they made?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are repeating rather than " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "something that we are....I was looking at what past universes might have been like really... " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And then I got into the idea of universal cycles. And decided that I would show that this might " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "be a past cycle. Some physicists at least think that the Big Bang is eventually going to be " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "followed by a Big Gnab in which the whole universe coalesces again which will be followed by " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "another Big Bang which is sort of like a succession of universe" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nanother crucially (for me) key quote from that interview is:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here or some type of power that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "really was operative in the world before the kingdom of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were real. But what I tried " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to do was to write about that pagan world as the pagans themselves wrote about it. If we read " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "modern historians we are reading a very rationalistic viewpoint of this which says that all of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "these people were absolutely wasting their time by building temples to Ares or Apollo or you name " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it. And by offering sacrifices in worship and all that it was nothing there. Nothing at all there " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and that whether it is true or not that certainly is not the way the people who were doing it felt. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They were convinced that there was something there and they had all sorts of legends and so forth " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "about the appearances of the god and in fact there is one place in the Acts where Paul and another " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "one of the apostles are mistaken for Zeus and Mercury. Zeus and Hermes, we are mixing the Latin and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Greek which is what I was trying to get away from. They are mistaken for Zeus and Hermes in human " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "form because people in those days expected that you could see Zeus and Hermes in human form. I am not " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "so sure they were wrong. I am not convinced that they were wrong. We love to think how much smarter we " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "are than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but I am very dubious about that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T02:23:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Do you have a page or a quote for this? I'd like to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "read that passage. I agree that these two clues are classic Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI have overstated the congruence a bit but Severian describes the old\n\nboatman as: \"bowed and shrunken by age..until he could hardly have \n\nweighed more than a boy of ten.\"\n\n \n\nThe old boatman's description of Father Inire is: \"Just a little man is\n\nhe, with a wry neck and bow legs\"\n\n \n\nHe mentions that to keep manatees out of the lake, \"Father Inire had\n\nthe gardeners plant the averns. I was here and saw it\".\n\n \n\n \n\nI don't think any first time reader would see those lines halfway through\n\nthe first book of this series and conclude that the old boatman was Father\n\nInire. But after multiple readings of the series and coming to the \n\nconclusion that we are supposed to look for disguised appearances of Father \n\nInire, I still find the old boatman to be a prime candidate. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T10:59:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah OK I can see the prospect of Inire going back seeking knowledge\nfrom the past. Maybe he wished to learn all he could about humanitys\nreligious beliefs to help him propagate the New Suns legend in the far\nfuture? I am aware of Urth being in a previous universe than our own\nbut it was always my understanding that the Urth iteration and ours\nwere still very similiar (the Apollo landing picture, or the\nAntechambers references to Alice in Wonderland for example)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/13/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: Dont worry about sounding argumentative, this is a discussion\ngroup\nafter all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "okay! though there have been times in the past where the discussion got\nnasty and\n\neven personally disrespectful to some contributors. It's been my personal\ngoal to\n\ntry to steer away from that trend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: For one thing, it has been noted that the Moffats lived\nbefore air\ntravel, yet there is a plane. This and other twists (more than I can now\nrecall) make the scene more and less than it appears. Is the scene from\nUrth's past? Our \"present\"? Or another \"iteration\" of Earth/Urth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or is it a scene of spirits called up by Inire, who built the Gardens\nand therefore has at least some control over time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with David. He is good at distilling the essential points from years\nof\n\nprevious discussion. I would only add that we might all agree that if\nnothing\n\nelse, Father Inire is a scholar, interested in collecting knowledge from\nother\n\nplaces and times. I'm sure this was Wolfe's intention for having him visit\nAfrica and\n\npeople of earth from roughly our own time frame (if Isangoma is Inire).\n\n\n\nRegarding the idea of another \"iteration\" of Earth/Urth, I'm thinking it\nmight be good\n\nto ensure that larry is aware of this interpretation of BotNS. My own best\nevidence of\n\nthis comes from Gene Wolfe himself, from the James Jordan interview\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our\nuniverse? Or is that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "a universe that resurrected saints have set up in the world to come as part\nof the cities" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that they made?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are\nrepeating rather than" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "something that we are....I was looking at what past universes might have\nbeen like really..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And then I got into the idea of universal cycles. And decided that I would\nshow that this might" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "be a past cycle. Some physicists at least think that the Big Bang is\neventually going to be" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "followed by a Big Gnab in which the whole universe coalesces again which\nwill be followed by" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "another Big Bang which is sort of like a succession of universe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "another crucially (for me) key quote from that interview is:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here or some\ntype of power that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "really was operative in the world before the kingdom of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were\nreal. But what I tried" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "to do was to write about that pagan world as the pagans themselves wrote\nabout it. If we read" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "modern historians we are reading a very rationalistic viewpoint of this\nwhich says that all of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "these people were absolutely wasting their time by building temples to Ares\nor Apollo or you name" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "it. And by offering sacrifices in worship and all that it was nothing\nthere. Nothing at all there" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and that whether it is true or not that certainly is not the way the people\nwho were doing it felt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They were convinced that there was something there and they had all sorts\nof legends and so forth" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "about the appearances of the god and in fact there is one place in the Acts\nwhere Paul and another" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "one of the apostles are mistaken for Zeus and Mercury. Zeus and Hermes, we\nare mixing the Latin and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the Greek which is what I was trying to get away from. They are mistaken\nfor Zeus and Hermes in human" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "form because people in those days expected that you could see Zeus and\nHermes in human form. I am not" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "so sure they were wrong. I am not convinced that they were wrong. We love\nto think how much smarter we" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "are than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but I am\nvery dubious about that. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9821A9.1000007@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-14T11:48:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you got interested in the links between Urth and our world - please,\nanswer this: how the Chrasmological writings were composed?\nYes, we know \"within the book\" that Typhon/Pas ordered some scholars to \ndo it.\nBut I mean other question - what message wants GW to pass to us,\nregarding their content?\n\nThere are several quotations from the books of our time. Actually,\nall passages that are explicitly given are such quotations.\n\nAndrew Bollen, Josh Geller and James Wynn discussed long ago the \nquotation from\nthe \"Hamlet's Mill\" by Giorgio di Santillana and Hertha von Dechend.\n\n\"A simple way would be to admit that myth is neither irresponsible =\nfantasy, nor the object of weighty psychology, or any such thing. It is =\nwholly other, and requires to be looked at with open eyes.\"\n(Horn/Silk reads it in the Grand Manteion.)\n\nAnother quotation is from Pope's translation from Odyssey. (Horn/Silk\nreads to Olivine, half-finished daughter of Maytera Marble.)\nThen it was also (slightly modified) quotation from Sapho in the\nend of the Horn/Silk story.\n\nMy point is that GW didn't just use beautiful poetry, but that he\nwanted us to recognize them as quotations, and that brings a message.\n\nBest to all -\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller wrote:\nyeah OK I can see the prospect of Inire going back seeking knowledge\nfrom the past. Maybe he wished to learn all he could about humanitys\nreligious beliefs to help him propagate the New Suns legend in the far\nfuture? I am aware of Urth being in a previous universe than our own\nbut it was always my understanding that the Urth iteration and ours\nwere still very similiar (the Apollo landing picture, or the\nAntechambers references to Alice in Wonderland for example).\n\nOn 10/13/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "larry miller: Dont worry about sounding argumentative, this is a discussion\ngroup\nafter all.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "okay! though there have been times in the past where the discussion got\nnasty and\n\neven personally disrespectful to some contributors. It's been my personal\ngoal to\n\ntry to steer away from that trend.\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff: For one thing, it has been noted that the Moffats lived\nbefore air\ntravel, yet there is a plane. This and other twists (more than I can now\nrecall) make the scene more and less than it appears. Is the scene from\nUrth's past? Our \"present\"? Or another \"iteration\" of Earth/Urth?\n \nOr is it a scene of spirits called up by Inire, who built the Gardens\nand therefore has at least some control over time?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree with David. He is good at distilling the essential points from years\nof\n\nprevious discussion. I would only add that we might all agree that if\nnothing\n\nelse, Father Inire is a scholar, interested in collecting knowledge from\nother\n\nplaces and times. I'm sure this was Wolfe's intention for having him visit\nAfrica and\n\npeople of earth from roughly our own time frame (if Isangoma is Inire).\n\n\n\nRegarding the idea of another \"iteration\" of Earth/Urth, I'm thinking it\nmight be good\n\nto ensure that larry is aware of this interpretation of BotNS. My own best\nevidence of\n\nthis comes from Gene Wolfe himself, from the James Jordan interview\n\nhttp://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth:\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our\nuniverse? Or is that\n \na universe that resurrected saints have set up in the world to come as part\nof the cities\n \nthat they made?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are\nrepeating rather than\n \nsomething that we are....I was looking at what past universes might have\nbeen like really...\n \nAnd then I got into the idea of universal cycles. And decided that I would\nshow that this might\n \nbe a past cycle. Some physicists at least think that the Big Bang is\neventually going to be\n \nfollowed by a Big Gnab in which the whole universe coalesces again which\nwill be followed by\n \nanother Big Bang which is sort of like a succession of universe\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "another crucially (for me) key quote from that interview is:\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here or some\ntype of power that\n \nreally was operative in the world before the kingdom of God?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were\nreal. But what I tried\n \nto do was to write about that pagan world as the pagans themselves wrote\nabout it. If we read\n \nmodern historians we are reading a very rationalistic viewpoint of this\nwhich says that all of\n \nthese people were absolutely wasting their time by building temples to Ares\nor Apollo or you name\n \nit. And by offering sacrifices in worship and all that it was nothing\nthere. Nothing at all there\n \nand that whether it is true or not that certainly is not the way the people\nwho were doing it felt.\n \nThey were convinced that there was something there and they had all sorts\nof legends and so forth\n \nabout the appearances of the god and in fact there is one place in the Acts\nwhere Paul and another\n \none of the apostles are mistaken for Zeus and Mercury. Zeus and Hermes, we\nare mixing the Latin and\n \nthe Greek which is what I was trying to get away from. They are mistaken\nfor Zeus and Hermes in human\n \nform because people in those days expected that you could see Zeus and\nHermes in human form. I am not\n \nso sure they were wrong. I am not convinced that they were wrong. We love\nto think how much smarter we\n \nare than people of ancient times or biblical times or so forth but I am\nvery dubious about that. \t\t \t \t\t\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T12:51:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9821A9.1000007@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: If you got interested in the links between Urth and our world - please,\nanswer this: how the Chrasmological writings were composed?\nYes, we know \"within the book\" that Typhon/Pas ordered some scholars to \ndo it. But I mean other question - what message wants GW to pass to us,\nregarding their content?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this piggybacks to themes addressed with larry miller in the \"Faterh Inire\" thread.\n \nWolfe has said he wrote BotNS with the idea of a series of universes created by a sequence \nof Big Bang/Grand Gnabs (sadly, the recent Nobel prize in Physics went to guys who disproved\nthis model).\n \nMy own mental model of this string of universes is in an ascending spiral (thus the Hiero's\npreference for that shape). Thus it takes a long \"time\" to travel linearly from one universe\nto the next. But there exists the possibility of short cuts between a universe and the ones\njust above or below on the spiral. Father Inire, Jonas and Dr. Talos and others have access\nto one of these short cuts and thus access to Earth legends and the means to bring them to\nUrth.\n \nI think Wolfe's purpose to this literary device is to offer an explanation for the origin of\nour own myths. Presumably Wolfe believes we live in a Judeo-Christian universe, created and\neternally governed by that God. So how could He have created such competitors and monsters such \nas Dionysus and Typhon and vampires etc.\n \nIf our myths and legends can leak into Severian's universe then perhaps the gods and horrors of\na gnostic universe can leak into ours. It is one way to justify Wolfe's stated belief that pagan\ngods are real. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T13:25:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9821A9.1000007@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you got interested in the links between Urth and our world - please,\nanswer this: how the Chrasmological writings were composed?\nYes, we know \"within the book\" that Typhon/Pas ordered some scholars to \ndo it.\nBut I mean other question - what message wants GW to pass to us,\nregarding their content?\n\nThere are several quotations from the books of our time. Actually,\nall passages that are explicitly given are such quotations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn’t Wolfe himself say somewhere that Typhon got his servants to make up a book of philosophy from eclectic sources, to be the Word of Pas? Or was that someone else?\nWhatever about “cycles”, Wolfe’s Urth is much the same as our Earth, and it’s prehistory at least (the era of the Dawn Men, extending up to the colonisation of the inner Solar System) appears to be nearly identical. Not just the Chrasmological Writings but various objects and events in BotNS testify to this.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T14:46:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I quite like your idea of a spiral string of universes. Surely there\nexists shortcuts or else Severians manuscripts would never of ended up\nin Wolfes hands!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: If you got interested in the links between Urth and our\nworld - please,\nanswer this: how the Chrasmological writings were composed?\nYes, we know \"within the book\" that Typhon/Pas ordered some scholars to\ndo it. But I mean other question - what message wants GW to pass to us,\nregarding their content?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this piggybacks to themes addressed with larry miller in the \"Faterh\nInire\" thread.\n\nWolfe has said he wrote BotNS with the idea of a series of universes created\nby a sequence\nof Big Bang/Grand Gnabs (sadly, the recent Nobel prize in Physics went to\nguys who disproved\nthis model).\n\nMy own mental model of this string of universes is in an ascending spiral\n(thus the Hiero's\npreference for that shape). Thus it takes a long \"time\" to travel linearly\nfrom one universe\nto the next. But there exists the possibility of short cuts between a\nuniverse and the ones\njust above or below on the spiral. Father Inire, Jonas and Dr. Talos and\nothers have access\nto one of these short cuts and thus access to Earth legends and the means to\nbring them to\nUrth.\n\nI think Wolfe's purpose to this literary device is to offer an explanation\nfor the origin of\nour own myths. Presumably Wolfe believes we live in a Judeo-Christian\nuniverse, created and\neternally governed by that God. So how could He have created such\ncompetitors and monsters such\nas Dionysus and Typhon and vampires etc.\n\nIf our myths and legends can leak into Severian's universe then perhaps the\ngods and horrors of\na gnostic universe can leak into ours. It is one way to justify Wolfe's\nstated belief that pagan\ngods are real. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E984D27.8070001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T14:54:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 6:59 AM, larry miller wrote:\nyeah OK I can see the prospect of Inire going back seeking knowledge\nfrom the past. Maybe he wished to learn all he could about humanitys\nreligious beliefs to help him propagate the New Suns legend in the far\nfuture? I am aware of Urth being in a previous universe than our own\nbut it was always my understanding that the Urth iteration and ours\nwere still very similiar (the Apollo landing picture, or the\nAntechambers references to Alice in Wonderland for example)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if it's an iteration, it's going to be similar. The iterations get \n\"better.\"\n\nIt's complicated by the fact that (AFAICT) Severian is in the future of \nthat iteration which is in our past. His universe is older than ours but \nhas not yet been born. Thus the translator's note about excavating the \ndeep future." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318606279.32063.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T15:31:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9821A9.1000007@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A really really quick point I wanted to make. The idea that everything in Severian's manuscript happened before our present time always felt like a slight retconning in that Jordan interview to avoid offending a protestant but spiritually inclined interviewer.\n\nWolfe, while raised a somewhat lax Protestant, converted to Catholicism late and seemed to be a bit more in tune with the general orthodox \"laxity\" of the Genesis story and especially its first 11 chapters (or indeed, all bible stories) in which the inspired truth doesn't have to be literally true but is true symbolically or as parable that simple man can grasp (John Paul II said evolution might be \"more than theory\", which is actually more than a scientist would probably say). Having said that, Gene is still spiritually inclined and, in my opinion, appreciates that inclination in his readers.\n\nFor example, Jordan says something about God promising to never visit another flood on mankind. Gene says, that's a previous iteration, because he knows he has a cyclic reality and it seems a way out of the trap without saying, \"well, the first 11 chapters of Genesis are parables, James. Like the good samaritan: he's true without ever having actually existed, a figment of Jesus' imagination\"\n\nWhen Severian casts his manuscript into the rift in urth of the New Sun, that manuscript could have ended up ANYWHEN, for that ship sails through time. Yes, Gene intended his creation ot by cyclical, but I don't think he necessarily intended that iteration to be necessarily in the past until James Jordan called the truth of the Covenant down on him, at which point Gene created a very very simple solution already written into his story. That's my theory anyway. It could have been in the past or the future, but it wasn't placed in the past until the covenant came up by a more literally inclined Protestant reader, who would vest more authority in the Bible rather than the Catechism." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E985C91.9030002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:00:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318606279.32063.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 11:31 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nA really really quick point I wanted to make. The idea that everything in Severian's manuscript happened before our present time always felt like a slight retconning in that Jordan interview to avoid offending a protestant but spiritually inclined interviewer.\n\nWolfe, while raised a somewhat lax Protestant, converted to Catholicism late and seemed to be a bit more in tune with the general orthodox \"laxity\" of the Genesis story and especially its first 11 chapters (or indeed, all bible stories) in which the inspired truth doesn't have to be literally true but is true symbolically or as parable that simple man can grasp (John Paul II said evolution might be \"more than theory\", which is actually more than a scientist would probably say). Having said that, Gene is still spiritually inclined and, in my opinion, appreciates that inclination in his readers.\n\nFor example, Jordan says something about God promising to never visit another flood on mankind. Gene says, that's a previous iteration, because he knows he has a cyclic reality and it seems a way out of the trap without saying, \"well, the first 11 chapters of Genesis are parables, James. Like the good samaritan: he's true without ever having actually existed, a figment of Jesus' imagination\"\n\nWhen Severian casts his manuscript into the rift in urth of the New Sun, that manuscript could have ended up ANYWHEN, for that ship sails through time. Yes, Gene intended his creation ot by cyclical, but I don't think he necessarily intended that iteration to be necessarily in the past until James Jordan called the truth of the Covenant down on him, at which point Gene created a very very simple solution already written into his story. That's my theory anyway. It could have been in the past or the future, but it wasn't placed in the past until the covenant came up by a more literally inclined Protestant reader, who would vest more authority in the Bible rather than the Catechism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the fact that the Translator refers to the future supports this \nflexibility.\n\nI think there are two simultaneous, opposite, and complementary \napproaches to successfully imagining and completing a story cycle like \nthe Sun series. (1) Work out critical stuff that your narrators \nexperience firsthand or that characters discuss a lot in GREAT detail. \n(2) Bullshit the rest as you go.\n\nBut make sure you identify separate \"piles\" of ideas that are \ncompatible. For example, in the \"super-Internet\" pile goes: a society \nrun by thinking machines; a society of mind-controlled humans run by \nmachines; a society of mind-controlled humans run by humans; a society \nof propaganda-controlled humans; a society of humans who dream together; \na society of humans who .... This way, vague references such things can \nchange without contradicting one another too much." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318608307.70091.YahooMailNeo@web114708.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:05:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Sergei SOLOVIEV \n?> If you got interested in the links between Urth and our world - please,\nanswer this: how the Chrasmological writings were composed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, we know \"within the book\" that Typhon/Pas ordered some scholars to \ndo it.\nBut I mean other question - what message wants GW to pass to us,\nregarding their content?\n\nThere are several quotations from the books of our time. Actually,\nall passages that are explicitly given are such quotations. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Didn’t? Wolfe himself say somewhere that Typhon got his servants to\nmake up a book of philosophy from eclectic sources, to be the Word of\nPas? Or was that someone else?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But this sort of thing is blurred by the quotations in the Atrium of Time. The Latin doesn't match Valeria's translations, so Wolfe has drawn attention to his fictitious translation by turning quotations in the original dead language into somewhat similar but perhaps recognizable-to-us Latin tags.\n\nMaybe the Chrasmological Writings are the same thing, and we're supposed to imagine that Wolfe the translator has turned quotations from Briah into somewhat similar quotations from our literature.\n\nIf all the passages from the Chrasmological Writings really are quotations, that would corroborate this idea, as it would be remarkable for the chrasmologists to have limited themselves to sources written before the late 20th century." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whatever \nabout “cycles”, Wolfe’s Urth is much the same as our Earth, and it’s prehistory \nat least (the era of the Dawn Men, extending up to the colonisation of the inner " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Solar System) appears to be nearly identical.\n\nPresumably except for Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not just the Chrasmological \nWritings but various objects and events in BotNS testify to this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But how far would Wolfe go in familiarizing things from Urth's past? Could he have changed the names of their saints to the names of ours? Could he have changed Severian's description of the \"Apollo\" painting so we would recognize it? (Maybe not.)\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E985FF0.8080404@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:14:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4E984D27.8070001@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 9:54 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n\nOn 10/14/2011 6:59 AM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "yeah OK I can see the prospect of Inire going back seeking knowledge\nfrom the past. Maybe he wished to learn all he could about humanitys\nreligious beliefs to help him propagate the New Suns legend in the far\nfuture? I am aware of Urth being in a previous universe than our own\nbut it was always my understanding that the Urth iteration and ours\nwere still very similiar (the Apollo landing picture, or the\nAntechambers references to Alice in Wonderland for example)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if it's an iteration, it's going to be similar. The iterations get\n\"better.\"\n\nIt's complicated by the fact that (AFAICT) Severian is in the future of\nthat iteration which is in our past. His universe is older than ours but\nhas not yet been born. Thus the translator's note about excavating the\ndeep future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We can suppose that the translator \"G.W.\" believes it is from our \nabsolute future due to the futuristic details of the ms and the \nanachronistic artifacts associated with it. He believes he has been \nshown buildings in our time that will endure into this future era, but \nthis is all circumstantial.\n\nMy money is still on the authorital-afterthought hypothesis, where Wolfe \nwrites about this future age, then belatedly realizes Severian being in \nthe absolute as well as relative future has blasphemous implications and \nretroactively (heh) places Sev's story in a previous incarnation to \navoid making no-Jesus Urth an improvement over with-Jesus Earth or \nmaking G-d's promise to Noah a lie." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E986225.3070008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:24:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Faterh Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4E985FF0.8080404@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 12:14 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/14/2011 9:54 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/14/2011 6:59 AM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "yeah OK I can see the prospect of Inire going back seeking knowledge\nfrom the past. Maybe he wished to learn all he could about humanitys\nreligious beliefs to help him propagate the New Suns legend in the far\nfuture? I am aware of Urth being in a previous universe than our own\nbut it was always my understanding that the Urth iteration and ours\nwere still very similiar (the Apollo landing picture, or the\nAntechambers references to Alice in Wonderland for example)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, if it's an iteration, it's going to be similar. The iterations get\n\"better.\"\n\nIt's complicated by the fact that (AFAICT) Severian is in the future of\nthat iteration which is in our past. His universe is older than ours but\nhas not yet been born. Thus the translator's note about excavating the\ndeep future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We can suppose that the translator \"G.W.\" believes it is from our \nabsolute future due to the futuristic details of the ms and the \nanachronistic artifacts associated with it. He believes he has been \nshown buildings in our time that will endure into this future era, but \nthis is all circumstantial.\n\nMy money is still on the authorital-afterthought hypothesis, where \nWolfe writes about this future age, then belatedly realizes Severian \nbeing in the absolute as well as relative future has blasphemous \nimplications and retroactively (heh) places Sev's story in a previous \nincarnation to avoid making no-Jesus Urth an improvement over \nwith-Jesus Earth or making G-d's promise to Noah a lie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd think he would have thought of that earlier, being a smart guy, but \nit's all good." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3FFF20EFDE3A4307B7DD8404BD18AA85@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:27:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318608307.70091.YahooMailNeo@web114708.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn gerry at bindweed.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If all the passages from the Chrasmological Writings really are quotations, \nthat would corroborate this idea, as it would be remarkable for the \nchrasmologists to have limited themselves to sources written before the\n late 20th century." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have only seen a small portion of the Writings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whatever \nabout “cycles”, Wolfe’s Urth is much the same as our Earth, and it’s prehistory \nat least (the era of the Dawn Men, extending up to the colonisation of the inner \nSolar System) appears to be nearly identical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably except for Jesus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jesus existed in the universe of Urth — Silk has a vision of him entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not just the Chrasmological \nWritings but various objects and events in BotNS testify to this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But how far would Wolfe go in familiarizing things from Urth's past? Could he \nhave changed the names of their saints to the names of ours? Could he have\n changed Severian's description of the \"Apollo\" painting so we would recognize it? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who knows? He may even have selected or substituted the particular Chrasmological Writings recorded by Horn, so that prehistoric readers will correctly interpret their nature and origin.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:50:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<3FFF20EFDE3A4307B7DD8404BD18AA85@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: A really really quick point I wanted to make. The idea that everything in \nSeverian's manuscript happened before our present time always felt like a \nslight retconning in that Jordan interview to avoid offending a protestant \nbut spiritually inclined interviewer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI absolutely agree that this is an important aspect of interpreting the James Jordan interview.\nWolfe seems to tread more carefully and politely with him than almost any other interviewer I've\nseen \n \nJames is a pretty sensitive guy when it comes to religion. In a discussion with him in here a number \nof years back he got rather upset with the idea that the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis, and in Dr. Talos' \nplay, might be the product of the mating of fallen angels and humans (though in the play the demon \nJahi seems to be trying to accomplish just that). \n \nI think in his effort to be polite and considerate of James, Wolfe forgets to be as guarded as\nhe usually is and lets quite a few things slip, making this perhaps the most revealing Wolfe \ninterview ever. (Wolfe is also quite respectful to his peer, Larry McCafferey, which is the interview\nwhere he spills the beans about 5HoC, Dr. Marsch and VRT).\n \n \nI'm not sure if the politeness to JJ extends so far as to lead to an amendment of his universal \nphilosophies but I agree with Marc that the possibility should at least be considered.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E986960.9070502@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-14T16:54:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the circus of Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "<4E985FF0.8080404@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did Gene Wolfe ever mention the book called \"The circus of Dr. Lao\"? \nIt's a curious\nbook, first published in 1935 by Charles G. Finney. I recently got a \nsecond edition -\nUniversity of Nebraska Press, 2002. There is curiously many parallels \nwith GW writings.\n\nThe story goes that to a small town, Abalone in Arizona, comes (in \n1930-es) the circus\nof Dr. Lao. Then the development goes along surrealistic/magic lines, \nbut the style\nsounds very modern.\n\nDirect parallels:\n1) there is a catalogue of characters, like in the BotLS and BotSS\nbooks - in somewhat similar style\n\"Dr. Lao: A Chinese\nMr. Etaoin: A corrector of errors\nAppolonius of Tyana: A legend\n...\nTeddy Roosevelt: An American President\n...\n\"\n2) there is a Hound of the Hedges - it is a green dog who uses \nphotosynthesis, like the Green Man\nin the BotNS\n\n3) There is a Gadarene Swine (one of the swine from the Bible, Jesus \nsent devils into\nit) like in the short story about the Pig in Chains by GW.\n\n4) There is a She-werevolf.\n\n5) A Mermaid\n\n6) A lot of dialogs (GW mentions that he loves dialogs) in particular, \nbetween human and\nnon-human personnages - Mr. Etaoin speaks at lenght with the Sea Serpent.\n...\n\nBest\n\nSergei Soloviev" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T17:03:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the circus of Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "<4E986960.9070502@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nDid Gene Wolfe ever mention the book called \"The circus of Dr. Lao\"? It's a\ncurious\nbook, first published in 1935 by Charles G. Finney. I recently got a second\nedition -\nUniversity of Nebraska Press, 2002. There is curiously many parallels with\nGW writings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has certainly come up many times on this list, mostly in _An Evil\nGuest_ context IIRC:\nhttps://encrypted.google.com/search?q=%22Circus%20of%20Dr%2E%20Lao%22%20site%3Aurth%2Enet\n\nHowever, I don't know that Wolfe himself has ever mentioned it. (A\nquick grep through my incomplete collection of text files doesn't turn\nup anything.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318616780.71429.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:26:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<3FFF20EFDE3A4307B7DD8404BD18AA85@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 10/14/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\nJesus existed in the universe of Urth — Silk has a vision of him entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday.\n\n\n\nYes, absolutely. This is why i think when Jordan brings up the old covenant that promises not to bring another flood, Wolfe, thinks, \"oh, yeah, shoot, the old covenant .. (always concerned with Jesus' new covenant and almost completely overturning all the old stuff) uh ... different universal cycles, James.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9880B9.5030701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:34:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the circus of Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "<4E986960.9070502@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 12:54 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nDid Gene Wolfe ever mention the book called \"The circus of Dr. Lao\"? \nIt's a curious\nbook, first published in 1935 by Charles G. Finney. I recently got a \nsecond edition -\nUniversity of Nebraska Press, 2002. There is curiously many parallels \nwith GW writings.\n\nThe story goes that to a small town, Abalone in Arizona, comes (in \n1930-es) the circus\nof Dr. Lao. Then the development goes along surrealistic/magic lines, \nbut the style\nsounds very modern.\n\nDirect parallels:\n1) there is a catalogue of characters, like in the BotLS and BotSS\nbooks - in somewhat similar style\n\"Dr. Lao: A Chinese\nMr. Etaoin: A corrector of errors\nAppolonius of Tyana: A legend\n...\nTeddy Roosevelt: An American President\n...\n\"\n2) there is a Hound of the Hedges - it is a green dog who uses \nphotosynthesis, like the Green Man\nin the BotNS\n\n3) There is a Gadarene Swine (one of the swine from the Bible, Jesus \nsent devils into\nit) like in the short story about the Pig in Chains by GW.\n\n4) There is a She-werevolf.\n\n5) A Mermaid\n\n6) A lot of dialogs (GW mentions that he loves dialogs) in particular, \nbetween human and\nnon-human personnages - Mr. Etaoin speaks at lenght with the Sea Serpent.\n..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice! I must read this book.\n\nEtaoin Shrdlu, btw, was an old typesetter's joke.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETAOIN_SHRDLU" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318617660.61821.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:41:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<3FFF20EFDE3A4307B7DD8404BD18AA85@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's infinitely clear in New Sun that the Conciliator is a syncretic blend of a historical Christ and the legendary possibilities of his return, after-Christ, but it only becomes obvious in Urth how that syncretism comes about (robert and maria are missionaries, Silk sees Jesus, etc. etc., Jesus exists in the Solar Cycle, and Severian is not him though he may reenact portions of the Christian passion (as does Tzadkiel, for that matter). Sev's whole trial indicates that it is imitation and substitution at work in the salvation effort, he doesn't even bear the sacrificial burden there." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318617988.95879.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:46:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9821A9.1000007@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One more key point. While I think the solar cycle has Jesus, it's pretty clear that Wolfe wanted to play with a medieval world without Christianity dominating in the Wizard Knight - maybe he thought about the implications of such a world and I feel for sure that is part of his motivation in exploring Mythgarthr etc." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318618085.92073.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:48:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the circus of Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "<4E986960.9070502@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 10/14/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: (urth) the circus of Dr. Lao\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, October 14, 2011, 9:54 AM\nDid Gene Wolfe ever mention the book\ncalled \"The circus of Dr. Lao\"? It's a curious\nbook, first published in 1935 by Charles G. Finney. I\nrecently got a second edition -\nUniversity of Nebraska Press, 2002. There is curiously many\nparallels with GW writings.\n\nThe story goes that to a small town, Abalone in Arizona,\ncomes (in 1930-es) the circus\nof Dr. Lao. Then the development goes along\nsurrealistic/magic lines, but the style\nsounds very modern.\n\nDirect parallels:\n1) there is a catalogue of characters, like in the BotLS\nand BotSS\nbooks - in somewhat similar style\n\"Dr. Lao: A Chinese\nMr. Etaoin: A corrector of errors\nAppolonius of Tyana: A legend\n...\nTeddy Roosevelt: An American President\n...\n\"\n2) there is a Hound of the Hedges - it is a green dog who\nuses photosynthesis, like the Green Man\nin the BotNS\n\n3) There is a Gadarene Swine (one of the swine from the\nBible, Jesus sent devils into\nit) like in the short story about the Pig in Chains by GW.\n\n4) There is a She-werevolf.\n\n5) A Mermaid\n\n6) A lot of dialogs (GW mentions that he loves dialogs) in\nparticular, between human and\nnon-human personnages - Mr. Etaoin speaks at lenght with\nthe Sea Serpent.\n...\n\nBest\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most assuredly. Its where he got Woldercon for An Evil Guest. The sacrifice at the end may be more or less applicable to the sacrifice at the end of Wolfe's novel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9884E0.9010202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T18:52:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318617988.95879.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 2:46 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nOne more key point. While I think the solar cycle has Jesus, it's pretty clear that Wolfe wanted to play with a medieval world without Christianity dominating in the Wizard Knight - maybe he thought about the implications of such a world and I feel for sure that is part of his motivation in exploring Mythgarthr etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. One \"big question\" that such a story would answer is: can there \nbe ethics without God (including Christ as proof of God's yadda yadda)?\n\nSince Wolfe is not a Protestant, his answer is not necessarily \"no.\" \nBecause he loves myth and sees it as a genuine answer to real problems, \nhis answer is \"probably.\" Does the book prove it? Hard to say." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:09:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318617660.61821.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When does Silk see Jesus? I vaguely remember something like that; perhaps\nin his meditations on the Outsider he comes to such a conclusion?\n\nThe Severian-as-a-type-of-Christ stuff isn't as obvious to me. Severian is\nnot divine, and not in charge; he gives the appearance of both of these,\nhowever, only because as the Conciliator he is wrenched forward and backward\nin time by entities more powerful than him. He is used as a pawn to usher\nin the New Sun at the expense of (presumably) most of the life on Urth, but\nthis seems a decidedly un-Christlike salvation to me. There are superficial\nsimilarities between Christ and Severian (male, human yet more than human,\nprophesied, etc.) but there differences enough that I see treating Severian\nas allegorical to Christ as a desservice to the complexity of his character,\nand the story. Rather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we\nconsider Christ-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly flawed, mundane, and\nunaware of himself in time, his role, and his powers for the majority of the\nstory. When he becomes an amalgamation of the past Autarchs and Thecla, he\ndoesn't even retain a singular identity anymore; this is also very unlike\nChrist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nIt's infinitely clear in New Sun that the Conciliator is a syncretic blend\nof a historical Christ and the legendary possibilities of his return,\nafter-Christ, but it only becomes obvious in Urth how that syncretism comes\nabout (robert and maria are missionaries, Silk sees Jesus, etc. etc., Jesus\nexists in the Solar Cycle, and Severian is not him though he may reenact\nportions of the Christian passion (as does Tzadkiel, for that matter).\nSev's whole trial indicates that it is imitation and substitution at work in\nthe salvation effort, he doesn't even bear the sacrificial burden there.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E988961.3030700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:11:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo. That's why he's a Christ figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 3:09 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nRather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we consider \nChrist-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly flawed, mundane, and \nunaware of himself in time, his role, and his powers for the majority \nof the story. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:15:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E988961.3030700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Christ was not flawed, divine, aware of his mission, his role, and quite\ncognizant of his powers ... these seem like the opposite of Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:11 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nBingo. That's why he's a Christ figure.\n\n\nOn 10/14/2011 3:09 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we consider\nChrist-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly flawed, mundane, and unaware\nof himself in time, his role, and his powers for the majority of the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 111014-0, 10/14/2011\nTested on: 10/14/2011 3:11:30 PM\n\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E988BAC.7050509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:21:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. That's why Severian is not Christ.\n\nYou'll find a fuller discussion (several of them) in the archives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 3:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nChrist was not flawed, divine, aware of his mission, his role, and \nquite cognizant of his powers ... these seem like the opposite of \nSeverian?\n\nOn Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:11 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n Bingo. That's why he's a Christ figure.\n\n\n On 10/14/2011 3:09 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Rather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we\n consider Christ-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly flawed,\n mundane, and unaware of himself in time, his role, and his\n powers for the majority of the story.\n\n\n\n ---\n avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\n Virus Database (VPS): 111014-0, 10/14/2011\n Tested on: 10/14/2011 3:11:30 PM\n\n avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\n http://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318620279.27773.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:24:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 10/14/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\n\nWhen does Silk see Jesus? I vaguely remember something like that; perhaps in his meditations on the Outsider he comes to such a conclusion? \n\nThe Severian-as-a-type-of-Christ stuff isn't as obvious to me. Severian is not divine, and not in charge; he gives the appearance of both of these, however, only because as the Conciliator he is wrenched forward and backward in time by entities more powerful than him. He is used as a pawn to usher in the New Sun at the expense of (presumably) most of the life on Urth, but this seems a decidedly un-Christlike salvation to me. There are superficial similarities between Christ and Severian (male, human yet more than human, prophesied, etc.) but there differences enough that I see treating Severian as allegorical to Christ as a desservice to the complexity of his character, and the story. Rather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we consider Christ-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly flawed, mundane, and unaware of himself in time, his role, and his powers for the majority of the story. When he becomes an amalgamation of the past\n Autarchs and Thecla, he doesn't even retain a singular identity anymore; this is also very unlike Christ.\n\n\nOn Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\nIt's infinitely clear in New Sun that the Conciliator is a syncretic blend of a historical Christ and the legendary possibilities of his return, after-Christ, but it only becomes obvious in Urth how that syncretism comes about (robert and maria are missionaries, Silk sees Jesus, etc. etc., Jesus exists in the Solar Cycle, and Severian is not him though he may reenact portions of the Christian passion (as does Tzadkiel, for that matter). Sev's whole trial indicates that it is imitation and substitution at work in the salvation effort, he doesn't even bear the sacrificial burden there.\n\n\n\nMost assuredly it is because when you read the opening of Shadow of the torturer the conciliator is a blatant rip of Christ from the middle ages: seen with his dark halo, called the greatest of good men. The New Sun hinted at early are clearly Parousia Christ legends.\n\nIt just so happens somehow Sev, while hinting all along that he is the New Sun and Concialiator (The conciliator might be at this party with Cyriaca and not even know it!? Oh yeah, that's me!) actually becomes them. Making the previous hints that the cociliator was Christ seem less solid.\n\nI think if you grow up reading religious texts and seeing all the drawings and lives of the saints and going to mass in a fancy stain glass cathedral or basilica you would naturally naturally assume the conciliator was christ from those early descriptions, for sure.\nAlso, everybody is named after saints!?clearly an attempt at a religious manuscript." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:25:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E988BAC.7050509@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will look for them; I don't see enough to consider Severian to be a\nparallel of Christ without really bending the definition / nature of\nChrist. I guess this will eventually turn into a theological dispute as to\nthe nature of the biblical Christ!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:21 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYes. That's why Severian is not Christ.\n\nYou'll find a fuller discussion (several of them) in the archives.\n\n\nOn 10/14/2011 3:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Christ was not flawed, divine, aware of his mission, his role, and quite\ncognizant of his powers ... these seem like the opposite of Severian?\n\nOn Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:11 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n Bingo. That's why he's a Christ figure.\n\n\n On 10/14/2011 3:09 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Rather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we\n consider Christ-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly flawed,\n mundane, and unaware of himself in time, his role, and his\n powers for the majority of the story.\n\n\n\n ---\n avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\n Virus Database (VPS): 111014-0, 10/14/2011\n Tested on: 10/14/2011 3:11:30 PM\n\n avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\n http://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n ______________________________**_________________\n Urth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318620605.30824.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:30:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 10/14/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth - Earth links\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, October 14, 2011, 12:25 PM\n\n\nI will look for them; I don't see enough to consider Severian to be a parallel of Christ without really bending the definition / nature of Christ. I guess this will eventually turn into a theological dispute as to the nature of the biblical Christ!\n\n\nIt's because there was really only one person who could reconcile the divine and the human in such a fashion that his sacrifice would pay for the sins of the world: the (re)conciliator, by the very title he is Christ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E988E05.7020506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:31:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may help to think of Sev as the kind of Christ who might appear to \nsave the people of a really, really, bad, dark universe utterly cut off \nfrom its creator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 3:25 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nI will look for them; I don't see enough to consider Severian to be a \nparallel of Christ without really bending the definition / nature of \nChrist. I guess this will eventually turn into a theological dispute \nas to the nature of the biblical Christ!\n\nOn Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:21 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n Yes. That's why Severian is not Christ.\n\n You'll find a fuller discussion (several of them) in the archives.\n\n\n On 10/14/2011 3:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Christ was not flawed, divine, aware of his mission, his role,\n and quite cognizant of his powers ... these seem like the\n opposite of Severian?\n\n On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:11 PM, David Stockhoff\n \n >> wrote:\n\n Bingo. That's why he's a Christ figure.\n\n\n On 10/14/2011 3:09 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Rather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we\n consider Christ-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly\n flawed,\n mundane, and unaware of himself in time, his role, and his\n powers for the majority of the story.\n\n\n\n ---\n avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\n Virus Database (VPS): 111014-0, 10/14/2011\n Tested on: 10/14/2011 3:11:30 PM\n\n avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\n http://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, write urth at urth.net \n >\n Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:31:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318620279.27773.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was indeed brought up in a very religious household, with all of those\nthings you mentioned; I didn't take the apparent reference to Christ to be\nanything more than a secular adjustment of present-day myths for a\nfar-future Urth. Our entire mythology, Christian or otherwise, is condensed\nto some bizarre miasma in the dying Sun days; whatever resemblance they have\nto present Christianity is the result of cultural evolution. It seems to me\nthat Holy Catherine (sp? I don't have the book in front of me) isn't even a\nreligious figure; just a left-over tradition from long ago that the Guild\nretains for tradition's sake. Despite initial impressions, I think it\nbecomes clear that the Conciliator is not Christ (or a type of Christ), and\nwhen you read what Wolfe wrote about concerning the \"translation\" of TBONS,\nit becomes further clear that references to saints, the use of Latin, etc.,\nare just contrivances by the \"translator\" to make the story accessible to\nthe reader. We aren't supposed to think that they are actually referring to\n\"saints\" as we know them; the word \"saint\" is just supposed to the closest\nequivalent for the purposes of translation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Fri, 10/14/11, Antonin Scriabin * wrote:\n\n\nWhen does Silk see Jesus? I vaguely remember something like that; perhaps\nin his meditations on the Outsider he comes to such a conclusion?\n\nThe Severian-as-a-type-of-Christ stuff isn't as obvious to me. Severian is\nnot divine, and not in charge; he gives the appearance of both of these,\nhowever, only because as the Conciliator he is wrenched forward and backward\nin time by entities more powerful than him. He is used as a pawn to usher\nin the New Sun at the expense of (presumably) most of the life on Urth, but\nthis seems a decidedly un-Christlike salvation to me. There are superficial\nsimilarities between Christ and Severian (male, human yet more than human,\nprophesied, etc.) but there differences enough that I see treating Severian\nas allegorical to Christ as a desservice to the complexity of his character,\nand the story. Rather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we\nconsider Christ-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly flawed, mundane, and\nunaware of himself in time, his role, and his powers for the majority of the\nstory. When he becomes an amalgamation of the past Autarchs and Thecla, he\ndoesn't even retain a singular identity anymore; this is also very unlike\nChrist.\n\nOn Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:\n\n\nIt's infinitely clear in New Sun that the Conciliator is a syncretic blend\nof a historical Christ and the legendary possibilities of his return,\nafter-Christ, but it only becomes obvious in Urth how that syncretism comes\nabout (robert and maria are missionaries, Silk sees Jesus, etc. etc., Jesus\nexists in the Solar Cycle, and Severian is not him though he may reenact\nportions of the Christian passion (as does Tzadkiel, for that matter).\nSev's whole trial indicates that it is imitation and substitution at work in\nthe salvation effort, he doesn't even bear the sacrificial burden there.\n\n\n\n\nMost assuredly it is because when you read the opening of Shadow of the\ntorturer the conciliator is a blatant rip of Christ from the middle ages:\nseen with his dark halo, called the greatest of good men. The New Sun\nhinted at early are clearly Parousia Christ legends.\n\nIt just so happens somehow Sev, while hinting all along that he is the New\nSun and Concialiator (The conciliator might be at this party with Cyriaca\nand not even know it! Oh yeah, that's me!) actually becomes them. Making\nthe previous hints that the cociliator was Christ seem less solid.\n\nI think if you grow up reading religious texts and seeing all the drawings\nand lives of the saints and going to mass in a fancy stain glass cathedral\nor basilica you would naturally naturally assume the conciliator was christ\nfrom those early descriptions, for sure.\nAlso, everybody is named after saints! clearly an attempt at a religious\nmanuscript.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:38:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E988E05.7020506@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So he is not so much a type of Christ, but a \"type\" of Redeemer / Savior.\nOne might as well say that Severian is a type of Krishna, or Zoroaster, or\nany of the other historical figures that fit into the heroic savior\narchetype." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:31 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt may help to think of Sev as the kind of Christ who might appear to save\nthe people of a really, really, bad, dark universe utterly cut off from its\ncreator.\n\n\nOn 10/14/2011 3:25 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I will look for them; I don't see enough to consider Severian to be a\nparallel of Christ without really bending the definition / nature of Christ.\n I guess this will eventually turn into a theological dispute as to the\nnature of the biblical Christ!\n\nOn Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:21 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n Yes. That's why Severian is not Christ.\n\n You'll find a fuller discussion (several of them) in the archives.\n\n\n On 10/14/2011 3:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Christ was not flawed, divine, aware of his mission, his role,\n and quite cognizant of his powers ... these seem like the\n opposite of Severian?\n\n On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:11 PM, David Stockhoff\n \n >> wrote:\n\n Bingo. That's why he's a Christ figure.\n\n\n On 10/14/2011 3:09 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n Rather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we\n consider Christ-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly\n flawed,\n mundane, and unaware of himself in time, his role, and his\n powers for the majority of the story.\n\n\n\n ---\n avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\n Virus Database (VPS): 111014-0, 10/14/2011\n Tested on: 10/14/2011 3:11:30 PM\n\n avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\n http://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n ______________________________**_________________\n Urth Mailing List\n To post, write urth at urth.net \n >\n\n Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318621257.45147.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:40:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 10/14/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\n\n\nI was indeed brought up in a very religious household, with all of those things you mentioned; I didn't take the apparent reference to Christ to be anything more than a secular adjustment of present-day myths for a far-future Urth. Our entire mythology, Christian or otherwise, is condensed to some bizarre miasma in the dying Sun days; whatever resemblance they have to present Christianity is the result of cultural evolution. It seems to me that Holy Catherine (sp? I don't have the book in front of me) isn't even a religious figure; just a left-over tradition from long ago that the Guild retains for tradition's sake. Despite initial impressions, I think it becomes clear that the Conciliator is not Christ (or a type of Christ), and when you read what Wolfe wrote about concerning the \"translation\" of TBONS, it becomes further clear that references to saints, the use of Latin, etc., are just contrivances by the \"translator\" to make the story accessible\n to the reader. We aren't supposed to think that they are actually referring to \"saints\" as we know them; the word \"saint\" is just supposed to the closest equivalent for the purposes of translation. \n\n\nSo it didn't seem like a far future religious manuscript to you, with the new sun coming to save the earth from the death of the sun at the end of mankind? There is a cataclysmic ethos in Christianity that begs for the return of Christ one final time, to me New Sun is clearly the playing out of that apocalyptic and eschatological strain, and EVERYTHING points to a religious identity for the conciliator, from the opening, a thousand ages in thy sight are like an evening gone, short as the watch that ends the night before the rising sun to every sustained symbol.\n\nCan anyone read new sun and say it's NOT a religious manuscript, one greatly influenced by the eschatological tradition of the church? huh. Interesting." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318621347.36060.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 10/14/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\n\n\nSo he is not so much a type of Christ, but a \"type\" of Redeemer / Savior. One might as well say that Severian is a type of Krishna, or Zoroaster, or any of the other historical figures that fit into the heroic savior archetype. \n\nyet the names, the theological discussions, the pictures with halos and all out of the old books, are based off a very particular religion and intimately associated with the conciliator. It doesn't seeem very hindu." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318621411.96819.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:43:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<3FFF20EFDE3A4307B7DD8404BD18AA85@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: Jerry Friedman\nFrom: Gerry Quinn gerry at bindweed.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If all the passages from the Chrasmological Writings really are quotations, \nthat would corroborate this idea, as it would be remarkable for the \nchrasmologists to have limited themselves to sources written before the\n? late 20th century." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have only seen a small portion of the Writings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I meant \"all the passages we've seen\".\n\nIt would also be remarkable for the ones that come up in the story to be limited to those sources." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Whatever \nabout “cycles”, Wolfe’s Urth is much the same as our Earth, and it’s prehistory \nat least (the era of the Dawn Men, extending up to the colonisation of the inner \nSolar System) appears to be nearly identical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Presumably except for Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jesus existed in the universe of Urth — Silk has a vision of him entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always seen that as a trans-universal vision, delivered by the Outsider, of the most important Person in all universes (as Wolfe may see it).\n\nPeople have been mentioning clues that Jesus existed in Briah. I think that at least by the time Wolfe got to the Long Sun, those are resemblances with the same cause as the echo between Baldanders's story and Frankenstein's (and the possibly different story that Dr. Talos has in mind). In other words, the Conciliator and other aspects of Briah \"prefigure\" Jesus, much like various sacrificed and resurrected pagan gods according to at least some Catholics. Catholics seem to accept that this sort of causation can work backward in time.\n\nI have a great deal of trouble believing that Wolfe wanted to imagine Incarnations in different universe or a world Jesus had been forgotten and the Roman Catholic Church had disappeared. But I know of no evidence on this point.\n\nOn the other hand, I agree with those who suspect that he hadn't come up with the past-universe idea when he wrote that bit about buildings surviving so many centuries of futurity, and that there was some retconning, not necessarily as late as the Jordan interview.\n\nOn the gripping hand, one possible interpretation of the discrepancies in the Jungle Hut scene is that Wolfe was already thinking in /Shadow/ that Severian's universe's history that was similar to ours but not the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Not just the Chrasmological \nWritings but various objects and events in BotNS testify to this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But how far would Wolfe go in familiarizing things from Urth's past? Could he \nhave changed the names of their saints to the names of ours? Could he have\n? changed Severian's description of the \"Apollo\" painting so we would recognize it? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who knows? He may even have selected or substituted the particular Chrasmological Writings recorded by Horn, so that prehistoric readers will correctly interpret their nature and origin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:44:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318621257.45147.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Fri, 10/14/11, Antonin Scriabin * wrote:\n\n\n\nI was indeed brought up in a very religious household, with all of those\nthings you mentioned; I didn't take the apparent reference to Christ to be\nanything more than a secular adjustment of present-day myths for a\nfar-future Urth. Our entire mythology, Christian or otherwise, is condensed\nto some bizarre miasma in the dying Sun days; whatever resemblance they have\nto present Christianity is the result of cultural evolution. It seems to me\nthat Holy Catherine (sp? I don't have the book in front of me) isn't even a\nreligious figure; just a left-over tradition from long ago that the Guild\nretains for tradition's sake. Despite initial impressions, I think it\nbecomes clear that the Conciliator is not Christ (or a type of Christ), and\nwhen you read what Wolfe wrote about concerning the \"translation\" of TBONS,\nit becomes further clear that references to saints, the use of Latin, etc.,\nare just contrivances by the \"translator\" to make the story accessible to\nthe reader. We aren't supposed to think that they are actually referring to\n\"saints\" as we know them; the word \"saint\" is just supposed to the closest\nequivalent for the purposes of translation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The ritual of the Torturers in which Catherine is beheaded is a reference to\nthe martyrdom of St Catherine of Alexandria. Sentenced to be broken on the\nwheel, she was beheaded when the wheel fell apart at her touch. So it's\npretty clearly referencing the early Christian tradition, although at the\ntime BotNS takes place it could be a custom whose purpose and original\nmeaning has been forgotten." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nAll things are the same--familiar in enterprise, momentary in endurance,\ncoarse in substance. All things now are as they were in the day of those\nwhom we have buried.\n Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), Meditations, IX, 14" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:46:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318621257.45147.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"So it didn't seem like a far future religious manuscript to you, with the\nnew sun coming to save the earth from the death of the sun at the end of\nmankind?\"\n\nThere were definitely religious themes towards the beginning, but that\neventually seemed to be because the characters didn't have all the facts\nabout who the Conciliator was. As Severian learns and experiences more, the\ndivine element becomes less prominent. There are fantastic, but not divine,\nreasons for the way things are, and will be. The Conciliator seems to be a\nreligious figure of divine origin before it is discovered that he was a\ntime-traveling pawn of inter-dimensional beings who have a (sort of)\nunexplained interest in one small planet, out of many. That, together with\nthe fact that it is written as a memoir from a not altogether trustworthy or\nnice person made it seem very unlike a religious manuscript." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Fri, 10/14/11, Antonin Scriabin * wrote:\n\n\n\nI was indeed brought up in a very religious household, with all of those\nthings you mentioned; I didn't take the apparent reference to Christ to be\nanything more than a secular adjustment of present-day myths for a\nfar-future Urth. Our entire mythology, Christian or otherwise, is condensed\nto some bizarre miasma in the dying Sun days; whatever resemblance they have\nto present Christianity is the result of cultural evolution. It seems to me\nthat Holy Catherine (sp? I don't have the book in front of me) isn't even a\nreligious figure; just a left-over tradition from long ago that the Guild\nretains for tradition's sake. Despite initial impressions, I think it\nbecomes clear that the Conciliator is not Christ (or a type of Christ), and\nwhen you read what Wolfe wrote about concerning the \"translation\" of TBONS,\nit becomes further clear that references to saints, the use of Latin, etc.,\nare just contrivances by the \"translator\" to make the story accessible to\nthe reader. We aren't supposed to think that they are actually referring to\n\"saints\" as we know them; the word \"saint\" is just supposed to the closest\nequivalent for the purposes of translation.\n\n\nSo it didn't seem like a far future religious manuscript to you, with the\nnew sun coming to save the earth from the death of the sun at the end of\nmankind? There is a cataclysmic ethos in Christianity that begs for the\nreturn of Christ one final time, to me New Sun is clearly the playing out of\nthat apocalyptic and eschatological strain, and EVERYTHING points to a\nreligious identity for the conciliator, from the opening, a thousand ages in\nthy sight are like an evening gone, short as the watch that ends the night\nbefore the rising sun to every sustained symbol.\n\nCan anyone read new sun and say it's NOT a religious manuscript, one\ngreatly influenced by the eschatological tradition of the church? huh.\nInteresting.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:47:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318621347.36060.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Halos date back to throughout the Greek heroic tales; they is not distinctly\nChristian, though it might have been old or modified Christian art in the\nNew Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On *Fri, 10/14/11, Antonin Scriabin * wrote:\n\n\n\nSo he is not so much a type of Christ, but a \"type\" of Redeemer / Savior.\nOne might as well say that Severian is a type of Krishna, or Zoroaster, or\nany of the other historical figures that fit into the heroic savior\narchetype.\n\n\nyet the names, the theological discussions, the pictures with halos and all\nout of the old books, are based off a very particular religion and\nintimately associated with the conciliator. It doesn't seeem very hindu.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:54:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When does Silk see Jesus? “I vaguely remember something like that; perhaps\nin his meditations on the Outsider he comes to such a conclusion”" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The clearest evidence is the statement that in one of his\nenlightenments he saw a man riding through a city where people were\nwaving fronds. The man on the scaffold, and the child lying in straw,\nwhich he sees may well be Jesus as well, but that's less certain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Severian-as-a-type-of-Christ stuff isn't as obvious to me. ?Severian is\nnot divine, and not in charge; he gives the appearance of both of these,\nhowever, only because as the Conciliator he is wrenched forward and backward\nin time by entities more powerful than him. ?He is used as a pawn to usher\nin the New Sun at the expense of (presumably) most of the life on Urth, but\nthis seems a decidedly un-Christlike salvation to me. ?There are superficial\nsimilarities between Christ and Severian (male, human yet more than human,\nprophesied, etc.) but there differences enough that I see treating Severian\nas allegorical to Christ as a desservice to the complexity of his character,\nand the story. ?Rather, Severian seems a sort of perversion of what we\nconsider Christ-like and heroic; Severian is decidedly flawed, mundane, and\nunaware of himself in time, his role, and his powers for the majority of the\nstory. ?When he becomes an amalgamation of the past Autarchs and Thecla, he\ndoesn't even retain a singular identity anymore; this is also very unlike\nChrist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are some rather clear correspondences between Severian and\nChrist; for instance he turns water into wine, and one of his deaths\nand resurrections - a death which, unlike most of the others, is\ntorturous - is accompanied by an earthquake.\n\nOn the more general question of whether he's a Christ figure, it\ndepends just what you mean by the term. In a literary sense I would\nsay that he is, because what he does parallels what Christ does in\nsome way, but that is certainly compatible with his being flawed.\n(Harry Potter, for instance, is a Christ figure in that sense. There's\nno doubt he's flawed, though.) And Wolfe preferred to call Severian a\nChristian figure, presumably to avoid any suggestion that he should be\nseen as perfect.\n\nWolfe has also called Severian a form of the Outsider. Forms of the\nOutsider are most clearly explained in OBW; it's made clear there that\nyou can _become_ a form of the Outsider - Kypris has done so, and\nThelxipeia may do so in the future. So presumably these are not just\nforms which the Outsider adopts; they are people in their own right,\nwho have become in some way attuned to the Outsider, through whom he\nhas spoken and acted. I suspect Silk himself may be another. Again,\nthis cannot mean that they are perfect - Kypris is not. So I think\nthis means we should see what Severian does in a positive light and as\na manifestation of God's will, but not deny his flaws." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E98944C.2070107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:58:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/14/2011 3:54 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nWhen does Silk see Jesus? I vaguely remember something like that; perhaps\nin his meditations on the Outsider he comes to such a conclusion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The clearest evidence is the statement that in one of his\nenlightenments he saw a man riding through a city where people were\nwaving fronds. The man on the scaffold, and the child lying in straw,\nwhich he sees may well be Jesus as well, but that's less certain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me, that is all one thing, in three parts." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T19:59:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, thank you. I remember that part of Long Sun now. In reading these\nbooks, it seemed more that the Outsider was reminiscent of Christ (the\nOutsider being the \"real\" god in the midst of a number of fake ones) than\nSeverian.\n\nI guess I am thrown off by the term \"Christ figure\" because it seems to be\noverly allegorical. The savior hero archetype existed before the historical\nChrist; I guess I just think in those terms instead.\n\nOn Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:54 PM, Andrew Mason ", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T20:08:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 10/14/11, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Antonin Scriabin \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth-Earth links\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, October 14, 2011, 12:59 PM\n\n\nAh, thank you. I remember that part of Long Sun now. In reading these books, it seemed more that the Outsider was reminiscent of Christ (the Outsider being the \"real\" god in the midst of a number of fake ones) than Severian.\n\nI guess I am thrown off by the term \"Christ figure\" because it seems to be overly allegorical. The savior hero archetype existed before the historical Christ; I guess I just think in those terms instead.\n\nBut there is evey ridiculous allegorical parallels. At one point, he is tempted by the satan figure with almost identical verbiage. Bow before me and all this will be yours.. are you hungry? I got some food for you too. The temptation of Christ in the wilderness being replayed verbatim, healing the sick, resurrecting the dead, hastening an event that almost ends the world, overtly overtly Christ like. \n\nHow WOULD you make a Christ figure if ripping off conversations between Christ and the Devil directly from the bible doesn't do it? (except Sev kills the devil there, but the words are the same. but Christ comes back with a SWORD, remember the old prophesy?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T20:18:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318622885.69618.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nJames is a pretty sensitive guy when it comes to religion. In a discussion with him in here a number\nof years back he got rather upset with the idea that the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis, and in Dr. Talos'\nplay, might be the product of the mating of fallen angels and humans (though in the play the demon\nJahi seems to be trying to accomplish just that)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe has actually explained (in COTO) what he thinks the Nephilim\nwere; they were the product of matings between humans and non-rational\nhominids, who, being innocent, could be called 'sons of God'. So I\ndon't think the use of 'Nephilim' is evidence of human/angel mating,\nwhatever he may otherwise think of it.\n\n(It's interesting that he assumes the existence of evolution and long\ntime-periods, and yet takes it that the Nephilim passage is a report\nof a real event; make of that what you will.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E989C0D.9040303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-14T20:31:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318622885.69618.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/2011 4:08 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nBut there is evey ridiculous allegorical parallels. At one point, he \nis tempted by the satan figure with almost identical verbiage. Bow \nbefore me and all this will be yours.. are you hungry? I got some \nfood for you too. The temptation of Christ in the wilderness being \nreplayed verbatim, healing the sick, resurrecting the dead, hastening \nan event that almost ends the world, overtly overtly Christ like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for that---I had thought of Typhon as Satan without knowing how \naccurate that was.\n\nThe discussion of which monarch destroyed books, repented, then \ncollected them in the Citadel now becomes a little more significant to \nme, and Typhon becomes more significant. If Typhon collected all the \nbooks in the Citadel---and perhaps even established the Citadel itself, \nusing only ships that did not escape or which were nonfunctioning---then \nhe is the source of all the books of myth that Severian read. That makes \nhim as important in New Sun as he is in Long Sun: everyone lives in \nTyphon's world, the world he created or the world that remained after he \nwas overthrown. He is the father of both.\n\nIf Typhon is Satanic, then the Gnostic structure of Urth becomes a bit \nmore concrete. He'd be the ruler of the lowest material plane to the \nOutsider's/Increate's highest immaterial plane." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T20:32:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E989C0D.9040303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI have a great deal of trouble believing that Wolfe wanted to imagine Incarnations in different universe" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, C.S. Lewis did, and he was pretty conservative. That's not to\nsay it's actually orthodox, but it's not so blatantly heretical that\nno basically orthodox believer could entertain it.\n\n'La Befana' may be relevant here. It's based on the idea that the\nSaviour has to be born on every planet. In the author's note Wolfe\nmakes it clear that this is a joke, a deliberate misinterpretation of\n'world'; but that allows that he may actually think it true of\nuniverses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or a world Jesus had been forgotten and the Roman Catholic Church had disappeared." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That, I admit, is trickier. But Jesus has not been _wholly_ forgotten,\nif the Conciliator is partly based on memories of him, and the passage\nin the Chrasmological writings about the beating of animal-sellers\nrelates to him.\n\nSomething very like the Catholic church certainly exists in the past\nof Wolfe's world - rituals invovling bread and wine, crosses, saints\n(Wolfe in COTO makes it clear that Holy Katharine is indeed the saint\nof that name, of Alexandria). It's fair to ask how, from a Catholic\npoint of view, it could perish. But we don't know that it has perished\neverywhere; there are plenty of places besides Urth and the Whorl\nwhere it may be flourishing.\n\nI'm not actually committed to Jesus existing in the past of Urth; it\nmay be there was a Jesus-analogue who was ony a prophet, But if he's\nnot literally present, he's symbolically present. After all, the\nvarious pagan gods who are alluded to aren't literally present either." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T20:34:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On 10/14/2011 3:54 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nWhen does Silk see Jesus? I vaguely remember something like that; perhaps\nin his meditations on the Outsider he comes to such a conclusion?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The clearest evidence is the statement that in one of his\nenlightenments he saw a man riding through a city where people were\nwaving fronds. The man on the scaffold, and the child lying in straw,\nwhich he sees may well be Jesus as well, but that's less certain.\n\nDavid Stockhoff: To me, that is all one thing, in three parts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI guess we can all present our own ideas but I think the gulf is too great between \nthose who think Jesus Christ The Saviour existed on Urth and those who don't to\nallow any convincing or changing of minds. I think it may be a very personal\nthing for a lot of Wolfe readers.\n \nHere is the quote from the Lawrence Person interview that Gerry mentions:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LP: Critics have made much of Severian as a Christ figure. Do you think that this \ninterpretation is valid in view of the first four books?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: No. He is a Christian figure, which is different. He is trying to become Christ-like. \nHe is basically what practically all of us who are men are, he is a bad man trying to be \ngood. He makes progress as the books progress. He becomes a better person, and a larger \nperson in a spiritual sense. But no, he is not a Christ figure. At least he never was to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nMy view is probably most closely in line with David Stockhoff's. I think of Urth and Briah as\nelder but less spiritually advanced than our Earth and universe. They have galactic empires\nand time travel and advanced biology but they haven't even had their flood yet, which we had\n5000 years ago.\n \nThus, as David says, Severian is the only kind of savior a place like Urth could get. Believing \nin the Conciliator and/or New Sun wasn't going to save your soul. The best you could hope for\nwould be for everyone around you to get drowned in a flood which would clean up the place\nand make room for a better class of people who eventually could be saved. Which, in Judeo-\nChristian lore, is what happened on earth 5000 years ago. I'd say Wolfe is rare but not \nalone in considering Noah's Flood as helping to prepare earth for the coming of Jesus Christ.\n \nThat seems to be what happened on Blue and what is going to happen on Green (if we can consider \nthe sewer scene as a portent of the future).\n \nGerry, I think you were implying that Jesus Christ did not save humanity because we still have\npagan gods and monsters and demonic possession and evil on earth. I am not religious but if I \nunderstand correctly, what Jesus Christ brought to our table and which provides for our salvation \nis choice. If we choose to believe in Jesus and accept him as our saviour, none of those evil\nthings can harm our soul.\n \nAs stated earlier, my impression is that the people on Urth (and the Whorl) were not provided this\nchoice (yet). They could believe in whatever they wanted but it wasn't going to help them or Urth.\nUrth (at least the Commonwealth) is in a holding pattern, waiting for...something. We discover that \nsomething is a destructive genocidal flood is what they were waiting for. Woo hoo. But I think \nGene Wolfe finds that Flood a necessary part of the path a planet must undergo before it is ready for \na true savior like Jesus Christ.\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318624867.53248.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T20:41:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just don't see how Robert and Mary can be a missionary reality and Jesus couldn't exist. It's like chewbacca living on endor. It don't make sense. So, yeah, for me, Christ is certainly present on ancient Urth. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T20:41:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nGerry, I think you were implying that Jesus Christ did not save humanity\nbecause we still have\npagan gods and monsters and demonic possession and evil on earth. I am not\nreligious but if I\nunderstand correctly, what Jesus Christ brought to our table and which\nprovides for our salvation\nis choice. If we choose to believe in Jesus and accept him as our saviour,\nnone of those evil\nthings can harm our soul." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say that \"salvation,\" in Christianity, relates to the complete\nforgiveness of sins. Because of our sinfulness, we are condemned and Hell\nis our portion after death. The sacrifice of an infinitely good being upon\nthe cross suffices to forgive all sins, just as the sacrifices of animals in\nthe Temple sufficed to forgive some sins under the Law. The salvation\neffected by the sacrifice of Christ does not exempt us from suffering in our\nearthly lives, and was never supposed to.\n\nThe above is, of course, a very Augustinian view of the way salvation works\nin the Christian faith, and people from Christian traditions in which St\nAugustine is less important might find a number of points of disagreement.\n:)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nAll things are the same--familiar in enterprise, momentary in endurance,\ncoarse in substance. All things now are as they were in the day of those\nwhom we have buried.\n Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), Meditations, IX, 14" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-14T21:58:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E989C0D.9040303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that your theory as the source of all books is interesting.\nThat seems more in line with his role in the other series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/14/2011 4:08 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But there is evey ridiculous allegorical parallels. At one point, he\nis tempted by the satan figure with almost identical verbiage. Bow\nbefore me and all this will be yours.. are you hungry? I got some\nfood for you too. The temptation of Christ in the wilderness being\nreplayed verbatim, healing the sick, resurrecting the dead, hastening\nan event that almost ends the world, overtly overtly Christ like." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for that---I had thought of Typhon as Satan without knowing how\naccurate that was.\n\nThe discussion of which monarch destroyed books, repented, then\ncollected them in the Citadel now becomes a little more significant to\nme, and Typhon becomes more significant. If Typhon collected all the\nbooks in the Citadel---and perhaps even established the Citadel itself,\nusing only ships that did not escape or which were nonfunctioning---then\nhe is the source of all the books of myth that Severian read. That makes\nhim as important in New Sun as he is in Long Sun: everyone lives in\nTyphon's world, the world he created or the world that remained after he\nwas overthrown. He is the father of both.\n\nIf Typhon is Satanic, then the Gnostic structure of Urth becomes a bit\nmore concrete. He'd be the ruler of the lowest material plane to the\nOutsider's/Increate's highest immaterial plane.\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 111014-1, 10/14/2011\nTested on: 10/14/2011 4:31:09 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2011 AVAST Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318690205.76419.YahooMailNeo@web114706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-15T14:50:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<1318624867.53248.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just don't see how Robert and Mary can be a missionary reality and Jesus couldn't exist. It's like\nchewbacca living on endor. It don't make sense. So, yeah, for me, Christ is certainly present on ancient Urth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They can be missionaries for a religion that's like Christianity but not the same. They distinctly don't mention Jesus. The religion could use the (abridged) story of Moses's death the way the Chrasmological Writings use quotations from our writers. And a female Christian missionary wouldn't let a man be naked in her presence when he has enough respect for her precepts to call her Preceptress.\n\nThe scene is extremely problematic and I can hardly see any way to draw definite conclusions about Urth's history from it. For instance, according to \"A Note on the Translation\", names of animals that don't exist in our world indicate animals created by \"biogenetic manipulation or the importation of extrasolar breeding stock\" or when \"an extinct species has been restored\". Do the mentions of the hesperorn and oreodont imply that those things were happening on Urth in the age of propeller planes? And why would Wolfe use \"hesperorn\" for the name of a bird that \"fluttered to her nest\" when the genus Hesperornis was practically wingless and most likely slithered on the ground when it was on land?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E99E3C8.8090701@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-15T19:49:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth - Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We may discuss the importance of the interviews (and of course they are \nimportant)\nbut GW is very daring for a catholic (in dogmatic sense), and plays with \nvery dangerous\nthemes - take for example \"Houston, 1943\". I think it is a brilliant \nhorror story, but\nthere are themes relevant to the Urth-Earth relation and to all the \nSolar cycle - the world\nin this story is supposed to be our world (i.e., after Christ) but there \nare plenty of dark\npowers that make it look not so much different from the world of the \nBoTNS, there\nare interesting out-of-body experiences, that can be compared (though \ndifferent) with Silk/Horn/Mucor experiences. To me it seems also that \nthere is an idea that the characters\nof american popular imagination may be sometimes a sort of devils... - \nand this is\nafter the incarnation of Christ.\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote:\nJerry Friedman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have a great deal of trouble believing that Wolfe wanted to imagine Incarnations in different universe\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, C.S. Lewis did, and he was pretty conservative. That's not to\nsay it's actually orthodox, but it's not so blatantly heretical that\nno basically orthodox believer could entertain it.\n\n'La Befana' may be relevant here. It's based on the idea that the\nSaviour has to be born on every planet. In the author's note Wolfe\nmakes it clear that this is a joke, a deliberate misinterpretation of\n'world'; but that allows that he may actually think it true of\nuniverses.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "or a world Jesus had been forgotten and the Roman Catholic Church had disappeared.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That, I admit, is trickier. But Jesus has not been _wholly_ forgotten,\nif the Conciliator is partly based on memories of him, and the passage\nin the Chrasmological writings about the beating of animal-sellers\nrelates to him.\n\nSomething very like the Catholic church certainly exists in the past\nof Wolfe's world - rituals invovling bread and wine, crosses, saints\n(Wolfe in COTO makes it clear that Holy Katharine is indeed the saint\nof that name, of Alexandria). It's fair to ask how, from a Catholic\npoint of view, it could perish. But we don't know that it has perished\neverywhere; there are plenty of places besides Urth and the Whorl\nwhere it may be flourishing.\n\nI'm not actually committed to Jesus existing in the past of Urth; it\nmay be there was a Jesus-analogue who was ony a prophet, But if he's\nnot literally present, he's symbolically present. After all, the\nvarious pagan gods who are alluded to aren't literally present either.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T11:20:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E99E3C8.8090701@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry QUinn: Also, Baldanders needed no mermaid’s kiss. When Severian " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "shares a room with him, he notices the strange scars on his neck. Baldanders " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "knows he will have to move to the water at some point in the near future (even " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "now he can only get about on land with the aid of an antigravity belt), and has " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "already equipped himself with gills." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWhat dreams does sleeping next to Baldanders inspire in Severian? What is the \n\nname of the lake Baldanders lives next to? WHat is the name of the town of the \n\nlakemen who are subservient to Baldanders?\n\n \n\nI think the text gives us plenty of hints that Baldanders' association with undines\n\n(and Abaia) starts before the time we and Severian meet him. Moreover his dependence\n\non B, F and O for technology should make us question how capable he is of equipping\n\nhimself with gills. (the \"kelpie\" watery origin of B and F should also give us pause \n\nfor thought) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T12:16:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry QUinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, Baldanders needed no mermaid’s kiss. When Severian \nshares a room with him, he notices the strange scars on his neck. Baldanders \nknows he will have to move to the water at some point in the near future (even \nnow he can only get about on land with the aid of an antigravity belt), and has \nalready equipped himself with gills." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What dreams does sleeping next to Baldanders inspire in Severian? What is the \nname of the lake Baldanders lives next to? WHat is the name of the town of the \nlakemen who are subservient to Baldanders?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He dreams of the undines, and they show him his future, in which he fights Baldanders. The lake is called after Juturna, certainly, and I can’t remember the name of the village. But I do recall, I think, Juturna saying elsewhere that they watch Baldanders, because he has something in common wirth them. He is, of course, doing by his own technological means the equivalent of what the undersea monsters have done by unknown means. There should be no surprises that certain linkages are made.\n\nAs for the mermaid’s kiss, the fact remains that Baldanders doesn’t need it. How the kiss would have worked, I don’t know — perhaps Juturna’s saliva contains nanomachines that would have restructured Severian’s body for underwater living, or perhaps Wolfe would have been content to leave the matter unexplained. But Baldanders already has his gills, hidden in plain sight by Wolfe as he likes to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the text gives us plenty of hints that Baldanders' association with undines\n(and Abaia) starts before the time we and Severian meet him. Moreover his dependence\non B, F and O for technology should make us question how capable he is of equipping\nhimself with gills. (the \"kelpie\" watery origin of B and F should also give us pause \nfor thought) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I am correct and the undines are “watching” Baldanders, then he has no real direct association with them. Instead, he gets technology from other sources — including the Hieros - and from his own research. The Hieros would not engage in technology transfer to the ignorant. He has already apparently created Dr. Talos, as well as a monstrous child to slake his lust or provide spare parts, or both - so a set of gills would not seem too much of a stretch.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T14:27:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the mermaid’s kiss, the fact remains that Baldanders doesn’t need it. \nHow the kiss would have worked, I don’t know — perhaps Juturna’s saliva \ncontains nanomachines that would have restructured Severian’s body for \nunderwater living, or perhaps Wolfe would have been content to leave the\n matter unexplained. But Baldanders already has his gills, hidden in plain\n sight by Wolfe as he likes to do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And (I should have noted) Juturna has no antigravity belt, and she could certainly have benefited from one. Nor, if I recall correctly, does Severian mention any gills, though I suppose it may be that his eyes were drawn elsewhere. The technologies, magicks or whatever are different. \n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C3DB2.7050704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T14:37:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 10:27 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Gerry Quinn \nAs for the mermaid’s kiss, the fact remains that Baldanders doesn’t \nneed it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How the kiss would have worked, I don’t know — perhaps Juturna’s saliva\ncontains nanomachines that would have restructured Severian’s body for\nunderwater living, or perhaps Wolfe would have been content to leave the\nmatter unexplained. But Baldanders already has his gills, hidden in \nplain\nsight by Wolfe as he likes to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And (I should have noted) Juturna has no antigravity belt, and she \ncould certainly have benefited from one. Nor, if I recall correctly, \ndoes Severian mention any gills, though I suppose it may be that his \neyes were drawn elsewhere. The technologies, magicks or whatever are \ndifferent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like the idea of Baldanders giving himself gills. But then who and \nwhat is he? Why is he doomed to grow so large?\n\nWould it not work just as well if he's of Juturna's race and size, and \nthose are natural gills Sev mistook for scars? Are we to believe Juturna \nmust come up for air like a whale? What is her race anyway: is she a \nlarge human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? Let's get \nour assumptions straight." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T14:53:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C3DB2.7050704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: And (I should have noted) Juturna has no antigravity belt, and she \ncould certainly have benefited from one. Nor, if I recall correctly, does Severian \nmention any gills, though I suppose it may be that his eyes were drawn elsewhere. \nThe technologies, magicks or whatever are different. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGiven what we later learn, I think Severian's observation of strange scars on Baldanders'\nneck as a non-recognition of gills is a pretty good guess. Dr. Talos' assertion that \nBaldanders can breathe underwater because he is a super-genius is not a very satisfying\nexplanaion.\n \nGiven the blobs of light travelling upward from Baldanders' castle to the Hierodule ship, I \nthink it is safe to guess that the anti-gravity belt was a gift from B, F and O, not Jurturna.\nB, F and O's appearance at the House Absolute might also explain the origin of the anti-\ngravity used in the Autarch's flier.\n \nHm. Advanced physics technology comes from the angels while advanced biological technology \ncomes from witches and undersea monsters. Could this reflect an engineer's prejudice regarding\nthe sciences? Though I was a bio-science major myself I could imagine an engineering student's\npreference for the nice, clean confines of a physics lab over the smelly funk of a bio-lab. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C455F.7010404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T15:10:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 10:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nHm. Advanced physics technology comes from the angels while advanced \nbiological technology comes from witches and undersea monsters. Could \nthis reflect an engineer's prejudice regarding the sciences? Though I \nwas a bio-science major myself I could imagine an engineering \nstudent's preference for the nice, clean confines of a physics lab \nover the smelly funk of a bio-lab." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There does seem to be a light/dark division there in New Sun. It also \nmay correspond to male/female.\n\nI'm not sure it holds in Long Sun, however." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3C73DB2689BB4061A0B9B69256EE0370@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T15:21:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C3DB2.7050704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 10:27 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Gerry Quinn mailto:gerry at bindweed.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How the kiss would have worked, I don’t know — perhaps Juturna’s saliva\ncontains nanomachines that would have restructured Severian’s body for\nunderwater living, or perhaps Wolfe would have been content to leave the\nmatter unexplained. But Baldanders already has his gills, hidden in \nplain sight by Wolfe as he likes to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And (I should have noted) Juturna has no antigravity belt, and she \ncould certainly have benefited from one. Nor, if I recall correctly, \ndoes Severian mention any gills, though I suppose it may be that his \neyes were drawn elsewhere. The technologies, magicks or whatever are \ndifferent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like the idea of Baldanders giving himself gills. But then who and \nwhat is he? Why is he doomed to grow so large?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is a man who — inspired by the sea monsters — is trying to make himself into a god by the use of technology. He intends to attain immortality, and, like many animals of our own Earth that do not die of old age, this requires continuous growth. He may well be centuries old already, and when he meets Severian at the end of _Urth_ he has not aged in fifty years, just grown larger.\nPerhaps his large size also accommodates a larger brain. In any case, he has given himself gills because he knows he must eventually enter the sea and dwell there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would it not work just as well if he's of Juturna's race and size, and \nthose are natural gills Sev mistook for scars? Are we to believe Juturna \nmust come up for air like a whale? What is her race anyway: is she a \nlarge human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? Let's get \nour assumptions straight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either. She has been created or spawned by one of the sea monsters. If we assume that the bean story refers to the sea monsters, then eggs or nanofactories or whatever were thrown into the seas of Urth, eventually becoming them. Their origin was off-Urth.\nWhether she comes up for air I don’t know, but I think if she had gills like Baldanders then Severian, who gave her a good looking over, would have noticed it.\nAs for Baldanders gills being natural: Baldanders is not natural, he is sui generis and a self-made man, right down to the gills.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C4F8F.2070303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T15:53:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<3C73DB2689BB4061A0B9B69256EE0370@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 11:21 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nHe is a man who — inspired by the sea monsters — is trying to make \nhimself into a god by the use of technology. He intends to attain \nimmortality, and, like many animals of our own Earth that do not die \nof old age, this requires continuous growth. He may well be centuries \nold already, and when he meets Severian at the end of _Urth_ he has \nnot aged in fifty years, just grown larger.\nPerhaps his large size also accommodates a larger brain. In any case, \nhe has given himself gills because he knows he must eventually enter \nthe sea and dwell there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So your explanation for his growth is technological as well? Is it a \nside effect of immortality? Has he somehow managed to turn off a death \ngene in his own body, or turned on a growth gene?\n\nI don't disagree with these possibilities, I just think natural genes \nare an easier path. I know a few decades ago it was popular to wonder if \nbody death wasn't programmed, simply because it was then discovered that \ncell death was programmed. The two may or may not be related. But at \nleast the presence of such an idea in popular culture might lend the \ntheory some substance without needing strong evidence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Would it not work just as well if he's of Juturna's race and size, and\nthose are natural gills Sev mistook for scars? Are we to believe \nJuturna\nmust come up for air like a whale? What is her race anyway: is she a\nlarge human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? Let's get\nour assumptions straight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either. She has been created \nor spawned by one of the sea monsters. If we assume that the bean \nstory refers to the sea monsters, then eggs or nanofactories or \nwhatever were thrown into the seas of Urth, eventually becoming them. \nTheir origin was off-Urth.\nWhether she comes up for air I don’t know, but I think if she had \ngills like Baldanders then Severian, who gave her a good looking over, \nwould have noticed it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eh. Maybe. Who knows what gills look like on a humanoid or what Severian \nnotices. Recall that he had to get in bed with Baldanders to notice his \ngills." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for Baldanders gills being natural: Baldanders is not natural, he \nis sui generis and a self-made man, right down to the gills." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reads like a thematic assumption applied top-down to prove itself. \nIf he's natural, so are the gills. I like Baldanders as self-created and \n-experimented on, but what evidence is there that he's _entirely_ \nunnatural or self-\"made\"?\n\nAre you assuming that Baldanders was born a human man?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<90C3CE4AAD064B9288213C5A53D4A999@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T17:02:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C4F8F.2070303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 11:21 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He is a man who — inspired by the sea monsters — is trying to make \nhimself into a god by the use of technology. He intends to attain \nimmortality, and, like many animals of our own Earth that do not die \nof old age, this requires continuous growth. He may well be centuries \nold already, and when he meets Severian at the end of _Urth_ he has \nnot aged in fifty years, just grown larger.\nPerhaps his large size also accommodates a larger brain. In any case, \nhe has given himself gills because he knows he must eventually enter \nthe sea and dwell there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So your explanation for his growth is technological as well? Is it a \nside effect of immortality? Has he somehow managed to turn off a death \ngene in his own body, or turned on a growth gene?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The latter, I think. Whatever he has done he has tapped the cellular mechanisms of creatures such as crocodiles and tortoises, which are said to grow forever and never die of old age. (I suspect that is not quite accurate, but the idea is well known. And human growth hormone has been touted as an anti-aging technology.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't disagree with these possibilities, I just think natural genes \nare an easier path. I know a few decades ago it was popular to wonder if \nbody death wasn't programmed, simply because it was then discovered that \ncell death was programmed. The two may or may not be related. But at \nleast the presence of such an idea in popular culture might lend the \ntheory some substance without needing strong evidence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, maybe he has managed to turn off or on some natural genes. But presumably he still must use some unnatural mechanism — control genes, drugs or whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Would it not work just as well if he's of Juturna's race and size, and\nthose are natural gills Sev mistook for scars? Are we to believe \nJuturna\nmust come up for air like a whale? What is her race anyway: is she a\nlarge human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? Let's get\nour assumptions straight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either. She has been created \nor spawned by one of the sea monsters. If we assume that the bean \nstory refers to the sea monsters, then eggs or nanofactories or \nwhatever were thrown into the seas of Urth, eventually becoming them. \nTheir origin was off-Urth.\nWhether she comes up for air I don’t know, but I think if she had \ngills like Baldanders then Severian, who gave her a good looking over, \nwould have noticed it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eh. Maybe. Who knows what gills look like on a humanoid or what Severian \nnotices. Recall that he had to get in bed with Baldanders to notice his \ngills." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps they are usually covered by his shirt. Juturna likes to swan around topless or worse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for Baldanders gills being natural: Baldanders is not natural, he \nis sui generis and a self-made man, right down to the gills." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This reads like a thematic assumption applied top-down to prove itself. \nIf he's natural, so are the gills. I like Baldanders as self-created and \n-experimented on, but what evidence is there that he's _entirely_ \nunnatural or self-\"made\"?\n\nAre you assuming that Baldanders was born a human man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Of course he could be from somewhere else, but we are not given any obvious indications of it. And we know for a fact that he is heavily into biological experimentation. If he were an amphibious alien, there would be no obvious reason for this.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9C67DC.2090103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T17:37:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<90C3CE4AAD064B9288213C5A53D4A999@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 1:02 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/17/2011 11:21 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He is a man who — inspired by the sea monsters — is trying to make\nhimself into a god by the use of technology. He intends to attain\nimmortality, and, like many animals of our own Earth that do not die\nof old age, this requires continuous growth. He may well be centuries\nold already, and when he meets Severian at the end of _Urth_ he has\nnot aged in fifty years, just grown larger.\nPerhaps his large size also accommodates a larger brain. In any case,\nhe has given himself gills because he knows he must eventually enter\nthe sea and dwell there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So your explanation for his growth is technological as well? Is it a\nside effect of immortality? Has he somehow managed to turn off a death\ngene in his own body, or turned on a growth gene?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The latter, I think. Whatever he has done he has tapped the cellular \nmechanisms of creatures such as crocodiles and tortoises, which are \nsaid to grow forever and never die of old age. (I suspect that is not \nquite accurate, but the idea is well known. And human growth hormone \nhas been touted as an anti-aging technology.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dr Talos more or less suggested that his functions was to nurse \nBaldanders. Keeping him on his meds could be part of that. There may \nalso be side effects, such as uncontrolled rage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't disagree with these possibilities, I just think natural genes\nare an easier path. I know a few decades ago it was popular to \nwonder if\nbody death wasn't programmed, simply because it was then discovered \nthat\ncell death was programmed. The two may or may not be related. But at\nleast the presence of such an idea in popular culture might lend the\ntheory some substance without needing strong evidence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, maybe he has managed to turn off or on some natural genes. But \npresumably he still must use some unnatural mechanism — control genes, \ndrugs or whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Would it not work just as well if he's of Juturna's race and \nsize, and\nthose are natural gills Sev mistook for scars? Are we to believe\nJuturna\nmust come up for air like a whale? What is her race anyway: is she a\nlarge human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let's get\nour assumptions straight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either. She has been \ncreated\nor spawned by one of the sea monsters. If we assume that the bean\nstory refers to the sea monsters, then eggs or nanofactories or\nwhatever were thrown into the seas of Urth, eventually becoming them.\nTheir origin was off-Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't know we knew this. If true, Baldanders-as-undine-man would also \nmean \"as alien.\" That's too much of a stretch for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Whether she comes up for air I don’t know, but I think if she had\ngills like Baldanders then Severian, who gave her a good looking \nover,\nwould have noticed it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Eh. Maybe. Who knows what gills look like on a humanoid or what \nSeverian\nnotices. Recall that he had to get in bed with Baldanders to notice his\ngills." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps they are usually covered by his shirt. Juturna likes to swan \naround topless or worse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. I assumed they were on his neck where they would be visible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As for Baldanders gills being natural: Baldanders is not natural, he\nis sui generis and a self-made man, right down to the gills." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This reads like a thematic assumption applied top-down to prove itself.\nIf he's natural, so are the gills. I like Baldanders as self-created \nand\n-experimented on, but what evidence is there that he's _entirely_\nunnatural or self-\"made\"?\n\nAre you assuming that Baldanders was born a human man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Of course he could be from somewhere else, but we are not given \nany obvious indications of it. And we know for a fact that he is \nheavily into biological experimentation. If he were an amphibious \nalien, there would be no obvious reason for this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only to keep himself on dry land and in contact with Hieros and various \ntechnologies as long as possible. But that's weak." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0920CD27B0754600ABAAFC970FF94E72@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T22:29:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. Advanced physics technology comes from the angels while advanced\n biological technology comes from witches and undersea monsters. Could \nthis reflect an engineer's prejudice regarding the sciences? Though I was \na bio-science major myself I could imagine an engineering student's\npreference for the nice, clean confines of a physics lab over the smelly \nfunk of a bio-lab. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt whether Wolfe would worry too much about the distinction. Both sides use the alzabo glands, for example. Typhon uses high technology. And for all I know, the undersea monsters may be driven by nanotech rather than some alien biology. Their technology may be so advanced it is not recognised as such.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<553D27A3E5ED4E20A23160F5CCEF2E8F@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T23:11:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C67DC.2090103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The latter, I think. Whatever he has done he has tapped the cellular \nmechanisms of creatures such as crocodiles and tortoises, which are \nsaid to grow forever and never die of old age. (I suspect that is not \nquite accurate, but the idea is well known. And human growth hormone \nhas been touted as an anti-aging technology.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dr Talos more or less suggested that his functions was to nurse \nBaldanders. Keeping him on his meds could be part of that. There may \nalso be side effects, such as uncontrolled rage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think so. Probably Talos actually carries out any operations Baldanders needs to carry out on himself — maybe even the surgical fitting of gills.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6497266520B34846ADCA06B86546B1E0@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T23:13:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C67DC.2090103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dr Talos more or less suggested that his functions was to nurse \nBaldanders. Keeping him on his meds could be part of that. There may \nalso be side effects, such as uncontrolled rage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think so. Probably Talos actually carries out any operations Baldanders needs to carry out on himself — maybe even the surgical fitting of gills.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T01:49:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<6497266520B34846ADCA06B86546B1E0@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- Both sides use the alzabo glands, for example. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon uses high technology" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI do not agree. Are you refering to the alzabo-like substance \n\nwhich transfers memories from the old Autarch to Severian? My\n\ninterpretation of the story does not allow for this sort of thing\n\nto come from angelic B, F and O.\n\n \n\nWolfe, in an interview, refers to the alzabo ceremony as a \n\n\"diabolic eucharist\" iirc. It seems clear that the memory transfer\n\nfrom autarch to autarch is the same sort of process and thus is\n\nequally diabolic and not the sort of thing which would come from \n\nangel analogs. Fallen angels on the other hand...yes that is a likely\n\nsource.\n\n \n\nWho provides the processed alzabo potion for Vodalus? The otherwise\n\npointless link of Hildegren to Vodaulus and the Cumaean suggests it \n\ncomes from the Witches.\n\n \n\nThe text pairs Father Inire as two of a kind and perhaps even as a \n\npartner to the Cumaean. It is they who dabble in necromancy and unnatural, \n\ndiabolic resurrections and other attempts to extend lives far beyond their \n\nallotted limit. They are shrivelled, old and ugly. They are willing to mix \n\nand interfere directly with humanity in pursuit of this goal of eternal life.\n\n \n\nIn constrast, B and F are angelic. They do not seek an extension of their\n\nown short lifespans and tend to provide humanity with a minimum of \n\ndirect interference and control. \n\n \n\nAs we see in UotNS, Severian's autarchal memories provide a very minimal \n\ninput to his qualification for New Sun. Their primary use is to know a \n\nset of verbal passwords to control devices created by (who else) Father\n\nInire, the 1000 year real power behind the throne occupied by a succession\n\nof human figureheads mostly chosen from unremarkable palace staff members.\n\n \n\nThis is my view of the situation.\n\n \n\n \n\np.s. Yes Typhon uses high technology but they are ancient machines dating\n\nback to a time before Urth became technologically backward and had to rely\n\non the dribs and drabs provided by limited cacogen contact. So his machines\n\nare not a part of this discussion. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9CF350.9090706@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T03:32:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<3C73DB2689BB4061A0B9B69256EE0370@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 10:21 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHe is a man who — inspired by the sea monsters — is trying to make\nhimself into a god by the use of technology. He intends to attain\nimmortality, and, like many animals of our own Earth that do not die of\nold age, this requires continuous growth. He may well be centuries old\nalready, and when he meets Severian at the end of _Urth_ he has not aged\nin fifty years, just grown larger." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he roughly doubled in size during that 50 years, that implies he was \n\"normal\" sized about 50 years before meeting Severian, and \"small\" \nperhaps 20-30 years before then - plenty of time for the short-lived \nautocthons and eclectics around the lake to dissociate the two \nappearances. Maybe even longer, if the his growth rate was slower \nwithout the support of the water." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > Would it not work just as well if he's of Juturna's race and size, and\n > those are natural gills Sev mistook for scars? Are we to believe Juturna\n > must come up for air like a whale? What is her race anyway: is she a\n > large human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? Let's get\n > our assumptions straight.\nJuturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either. She has been created\nor spawned by one of the sea monsters. If we assume that the bean story\nrefers to the sea monsters, then eggs or nanofactories or whatever were\nthrown into the seas of Urth, eventually becoming them. Their origin was\noff-Urth.\nWhether she comes up for air I don’t know, but I think if she had gills\nlike Baldanders then Severian, who gave her a good looking over, would\nhave noticed it.\nAs for Baldanders gills being natural: Baldanders is not natural, he is\nsui generis and a self-made man, right down to the gills." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't believe there are any strong distinctions. Before the Short Sun \nrerconnage, the final word from on high was in URTH where the Yesodis \nsay there was no extraterrestrial higher life in Briah, only Man and \nMan's modifications of himself and lower animals, and their \nmodifications, etc. Baldanders gives himself gills by altering himself \ntechnologically, likely as did Idas' forebears and similarly those of \nthe other sailors born on Urth who Sev remarks \"appeared hardly human to \nme.\"\n\nThis implies that the great beasts are not quite the Lovecraftian Things \nwe have been lead to expect, but titanic masses of quasihuman flesh that \nused to be something like an individual. If Baldanders can double his \nsize in 50 years, the thousand years since Typhon's reign could allow \nsimilarly growing humanoids to double 20 times over. This potentially if \nimprobably allows increasing their size a million times but is more than \nenough to achieve the mountainous size claimed by Jonas.\n\nIt also would satisfy David's desire for dire beats with dread mind \npowers, because they could have the genes for psionic abilities as \neasily as Decuman and Typhon and Ceryx seem to have them." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9D3E1C.3060307@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T08:51:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 9:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: And (I should have noted) Juturna has no antigravity belt, and she\ncould certainly have benefited from one. Nor, if I recall correctly, does Severian\nmention any gills, though I suppose it may be that his eyes were drawn elsewhere.\nThe technologies, magicks or whatever are different." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna's got long green hair to cover her neck, though it should have \nswept back at least on the occasion that she lurches from the river." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given the blobs of light travelling upward from Baldanders' castle to the Hierodule ship, I\nthink it is safe to guess that the anti-gravity belt was a gift from B, F and O, not Jurturna.\nB, F and O's appearance at the House Absolute might also explain the origin of the anti-\ngravity used in the Autarch's flier.\n\nHm. Advanced physics technology comes from the angels while advanced biological technology\ncomes from witches and undersea monsters. Could this reflect an engineer's prejudice regarding\nthe sciences? Though I was a bio-science major myself I could imagine an engineering student's\npreference for the nice, clean confines of a physics lab over the smelly funk of a bio-lab. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't forget that Inire is a Yesodi but supplies both mechanisms and \nbiology in the form of the numerous animal hybrids." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9D402B.70908@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T09:00:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9C67DC.2090103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 12:37 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nDr Talos more or less suggested that his functions was to nurse\nBaldanders. Keeping him on his meds could be part of that. There may\nalso be side effects, such as uncontrolled rage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His flipping out at the Well of Orchids as well as his decision to fight \nwith Sev could be due to his perpetually adolescent hormones getting the \nbetter of him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only to keep himself on dry land and in contact with Hieros and various\ntechnologies as long as possible. But that's weak." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are no Hieros left to be in contact with, just Hierodules." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9D6BC3.3050503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-18T12:06:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9CF350.9090706@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 11:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nI don't believe there are any strong distinctions. Before the Short \nSun rerconnage, the final word from on high was in URTH where the \nYesodis say there was no extraterrestrial higher life in Briah, only \nMan and Man's modifications of himself and lower animals, and their \nmodifications, etc. Baldanders gives himself gills by altering himself \ntechnologically, likely as did Idas' forebears and similarly those of \nthe other sailors born on Urth who Sev remarks \"appeared hardly human \nto me.\"\n\nThis implies that the great beasts are not quite the Lovecraftian \nThings we have been lead to expect, but titanic masses of quasihuman \nflesh that used to be something like an individual. If Baldanders can \ndouble his size in 50 years, the thousand years since Typhon's reign \ncould allow similarly growing humanoids to double 20 times over. This \npotentially if improbably allows increasing their size a million times \nbut is more than enough to achieve the mountainous size claimed by Jonas.\n\nIt also would satisfy David's desire for dire beats with dread mind \npowers, because they could have the genes for psionic abilities as \neasily as Decuman and Typhon and Ceryx seem to have them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More importantly, it fits their proposed (observed?) ability to squeeze \noff undines, making psionic powers unnecessary to postulate. It also \nseems to fit the \"horror\" theme of mindless, almost cancer-like growth \nthat pops up here and there. And it makes Baldanders a straightforward \nkey to the Beasts' nature. It explains the lack of any hint of \npersonality among the Beasts. In fact see no reason to assume they were \noriginally \"individuals\" at all except in a technical sense." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9D6C1E.5040506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-18T12:07:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9D402B.70908@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/18/2011 5:00 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/17/2011 12:37 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only to keep himself on dry land and in contact with Hieros and various\ntechnologies as long as possible. But that's weak." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are no Hieros left to be in contact with, just Hierodules." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's an abbreviation." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T12:57:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9D6C1E.5040506@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Before the Short Sun rerconnage, the final word from on high \nwas in URTH where the Yesodis say there was no extraterrestrial higher life \nin Briah, only Man and Man's modifications of himself and lower animals, and \ntheir modifications, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI tend to agree with this. There is some suggestion that the Hiero race was\nformed from a lower species (the watery origin of Barbatus and Famulimus?) but\ngenerally I think there is an implication that all sentient life in Briah is of\nhuman origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This potentially if improbably allows increasing their size a million times but \nis more than enough to achieve the mountainous size claimed by Jonas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNot to mention the island-sized bulk of Tzadkiel reported by Severian for his \nfirst sighting of him/her in the big mirror book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't forget that Inire is a Yesodi but supplies both mechanisms and \nbiology in the form of the numerous animal hybrids." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is fair to say Inire is/was a hierodule but I don't think he\nwas a Yesodi. It is my view that Inire was a crewman on Tzadkiel's ship,\nrising as high as First Mate, but instigated a mutiny, was defeated by those\nloyal to Tzadkiel (including Severian) and exiled to Urth. I think Inire's\nlack of all heavenly accoutrements possessed by the other hiero-types suggests\nhe was off the ship before it arrived in Yesod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are no Hieros left to be in contact with, just Hierodules." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- It's an abbreviation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, it is confusing but perhaps intentionally and to be expected. The nomenclature\nfor the hierarchy of angels in Earth religion is even more confusing. I think the text\ndoes call the Homo superior race created in Briah as \"Hieros\". It also mentions\nHierodules, Hierogrammates and Hierarchs. Was it Dan'l who took to using the term\n\"hiero-dudes\" as a generic term for them all? I borrowed the concept but use the more\nsober term, \"hiero-types\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...More importantly, it fits their proposed (observed?) ability to squeeze \noff undines, making psionic powers unnecessary to postulate. It also \nseems to fit the \"horror\" theme of mindless, almost cancer-like growth \nthat pops up here and there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree, though by the time of Short Sun writing, Wolfe seems to have softened his view of\nsuch women. Seawrack does not possess the inherent repulsiveness of Juturna. (since mythology\nconflates undines, mermaids and sirens I am pretty sure Wolfe meant there to be a connection\nbetween these two seductive, aquatic characters)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And it makes Baldanders a straightforward key to the Beasts' nature. It explains the lack of \nany hint of personality among the Beasts. In fact see no reason to assume they were \noriginally \"individuals\" at all except in a technical sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Though I still think it is a good bet that Cilinia gave rise to Great Scylla (who might \nbe Abaia). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T15:21:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9D6BC3.3050503@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where in Urth does it say that? It was always my understanding that\nthere were many alien beings on Urth and part of Severians\nunreliability as narrator was his inability to distinguish them from\nother beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/18/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/17/2011 11:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't believe there are any strong distinctions. Before the Short\nSun rerconnage, the final word from on high was in URTH where the\nYesodis say there was no extraterrestrial higher life in Briah, only\nMan and Man's modifications of himself and lower animals, and their\nmodifications, etc. Baldanders gives himself gills by altering himself\ntechnologically, likely as did Idas' forebears and similarly those of\nthe other sailors born on Urth who Sev remarks \"appeared hardly human\nto me.\"\n\nThis implies that the great beasts are not quite the Lovecraftian\nThings we have been lead to expect, but titanic masses of quasihuman\nflesh that used to be something like an individual. If Baldanders can\ndouble his size in 50 years, the thousand years since Typhon's reign\ncould allow similarly growing humanoids to double 20 times over. This\npotentially if improbably allows increasing their size a million times\nbut is more than enough to achieve the mountainous size claimed by Jonas.\n\nIt also would satisfy David's desire for dire beats with dread mind\npowers, because they could have the genes for psionic abilities as\neasily as Decuman and Typhon and Ceryx seem to have them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More importantly, it fits their proposed (observed?) ability to squeeze\noff undines, making psionic powers unnecessary to postulate. It also\nseems to fit the \"horror\" theme of mindless, almost cancer-like growth\nthat pops up here and there. And it makes Baldanders a straightforward\nkey to the Beasts' nature. It explains the lack of any hint of\npersonality among the Beasts. In fact see no reason to assume they were\noriginally \"individuals\" at all except in a technical sense.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1318951513.68983.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T15:25:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9CF350.9090706@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nI don't believe there are any strong distinctions. Before the Short Sun >rerconnage, the final word from on high was in URTH where the Yesodis >say there was no extraterrestrial higher life in Briah, only Man and >Man's modifications of himself and lower animals, and their >modifications, etc. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't believe Short Sun changes this or retcons it, I think the Vanished People and the inhumi are man and their modifications of themselves. Tree genetic template + mankind = vanished people, etc. The tree integration is simply a modification of man and the lower animals.\n\nBut that's just me I guess." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9DAD26.2020904@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T16:45:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9D6BC3.3050503@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/18/2011 7:06 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/17/2011 11:32 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't believe there are any strong distinctions. Before the Short\nSun rerconnage, the final word from on high was in URTH where the\nYesodis say there was no extraterrestrial higher life in Briah, only\nMan and Man's modifications of himself and lower animals, and their\nmodifications, etc. Baldanders gives himself gills by altering himself\ntechnologically, likely as did Idas' forebears and similarly those of\nthe other sailors born on Urth who Sev remarks \"appeared hardly human\nto me.\"\n\nThis implies that the great beasts are not quite the Lovecraftian\nThings we have been lead to expect, but titanic masses of quasihuman\nflesh that used to be something like an individual. If Baldanders can\ndouble his size in 50 years, the thousand years since Typhon's reign\ncould allow similarly growing humanoids to double 20 times over. This\npotentially if improbably allows increasing their size a million times\nbut is more than enough to achieve the mountainous size claimed by Jonas.\n\nIt also would satisfy David's desire for dire beats with dread mind\npowers, because they could have the genes for psionic abilities as\neasily as Decuman and Typhon and Ceryx seem to have them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More importantly, it fits their proposed (observed?) ability to squeeze\noff undines, making psionic powers unnecessary to postulate. It also\nseems to fit the \"horror\" theme of mindless, almost cancer-like growth\nthat pops up here and there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not seeing any evidence the undines are squeezed off: Idas and \nJuturna seem to have distinct personalities. The pandours also seem to \nbe undines, and their armored state heavily suggests they are either few \nin number or individually valuable or both, rather than pinched off a \nmountain-sized mass at need. That they are being deployed on a surface \nvessel also suggests that Juturna-class minions, who could convey them \nas fast or faster concealed beneath the surface, are spread a bit thin.\n\nGrowth is another important theme, it seems like it is one of the \neasiest modifications to do, and since it is established that it can be \ndone during life by the examples of Baldanders and the Exultants, this \ndoes not rule out land-born humans becoming huge undines eventually. \nJuturna could have been equally likely as Jolenta to be expelled from \nthe witches for being too lustful (she only wants the humans' love, \nrecall) and fallen in with the Abaians.\n\nOr she could have returned to her original family, the Abaians. It is \nvery suspicious that Dorcas is seen to revive when she is put in the \nlake water, that the boatman has such a long life in frequent contact \nwith the water, and they previously lived in a neighborhood surrounded \nby the river on three sides. If Severian already has undine blood in \nhim, the attraction to a giant undine woman is much less improbable and \nconsumation is less matter of scale than of time.\n\nAnd it returns us to a Lovecraftian theme, as in \"The Shadow Over \nInnsmouth.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9DAEFA.4070306@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T16:53:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9D6C1E.5040506@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/18/2011 7:07 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/18/2011 5:00 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/17/2011 12:37 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Only to keep himself on dry land and in contact with Hieros and various\ntechnologies as long as possible. But that's weak." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are no Hieros left to be in contact with, just Hierodules." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's an abbreviation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's also indistinguishable from the name for their forebears, and from \nsimilar abbreviations of Hierogrammates and Hierarchs." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T19:01:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9DAEFA.4070306@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: It was always my understanding that there were many alien \nbeings on Urth and part of Severians unreliability as narrator was his \ninability to distinguish them from other beings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, but I think the question is whether these aliens are entirely a product\nof evolution on other planets or whether they are humans who left Urth in\nearlier waves, mutated, evolved and are now returned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: I think the Vanished People and the inhumi are man and their \nmodifications of themselves. Tree genetic template + mankind = vanished people, \netc. The tree integration is simply a modification of man and the lower animals.\nBut that's just me I guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the model makes sense. The thing is, if this story is going to retain a\nsemblance of Judeo-Christian relevance, I think a human occupied universe makes\nsome sense. Nobody really wants a green blob or crystalline structure Jesus \n(well at least not Gene Wolfe, I guess)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I'm not seeing any evidence the undines are squeezed off: Idas and \nJuturna seem to have distinct personalities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSo, I would say, does Tinkerbell Tzadkiel and it seems likely she was squeezed off.\nDo you have any theory on what was going on with Great Scylla and the small army of\npresumably detachable women that seem to be growing from her back?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The pandours also seem to be undines, and their armored state heavily suggests they are \neither few in number or individually valuable or both, rather than pinched off a \nmountain-sized mass at need." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, I think we agree that the pandours of Erebus are akin to the undines of Abaia, \npinched off or not. But since we don't see them in action, the armor could be a mostly a\nliterary device to show they are warriors (as their pale skin is to show they are from\nthe south/antarctic).\n \nOn the other, it may be that the pinching off process isn't quite a snap for megatherians\nas Tzadkiel makes it appear. If Seawrack is a pinched off agent from the Mother (and I \nknow that isn't a certain thing) it would seem The Mother decided it was more expedient to\nuse the already created siren after her arm got shot off, rather than create a new one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Juturna could have been equally likely as Jolenta to be expelled from \nthe witches for being too lustful (she only wants the humans' love, \nrecall) and fallen in with the Abaians.\nOr she could have returned to her original family, the Abaians. It is \nvery suspicious that Dorcas is seen to revive when she is put in the \nlake water, that the boatman has such a long life in frequent contact \nwith the water, and they previously lived in a neighborhood surrounded \nby the river on three sides." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this is an interesting theory. I especially like the observation of the\nriverine nature of Dorcas and her husband's house. It kinda feeds into my own\ntheories actually. \n \nThere are three old boatmen who all seem to have a special interest in undines. \nOne is Dorcas' husband. Another is on the dock after Severian is rescued from drowning. \nThe third is Maxellindis' \"uncle\". I suspect all three are (essentially) the same person. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2a72e2cc058dde713c0ab982cb23a8f8.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T21:38:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, October 18, 2011 14:01, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: It was always my understanding that there were many alien\nbeings on Urth and part of Severians unreliability as narrator was his\ninability to distinguish them from other beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but I think the question is whether these aliens are entirely a\nproduct\nof evolution on other planets or whether they are humans who left Urth in\nearlier waves, mutated, evolved and are now returned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini: I think the Vanished People and the inhumi are man and\ntheir\nmodifications of themselves. Tree genetic template + mankind = vanished\npeople,\netc. The tree integration is simply a modification of man and the lower\nanimals.\nBut that's just me I guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the model makes sense. The thing is, if this story is going to\nretain a\nsemblance of Judeo-Christian relevance, I think a human occupied universe\nmakes\nsome sense. Nobody really wants a green blob or crystalline structure\nJesus\n(well at least not Gene Wolfe, I guess)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I'm not seeing any evidence the undines are squeezed off:\nIdas and\nJuturna seem to have distinct personalities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, I would say, does Tinkerbell Tzadkiel and it seems likely she was\nsqueezed off." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tzadkerbell and the Captain have different responsibilities and moods, but\nboth are pretty indulgent to Sev. Plus, they acknowledge they are divided\nfrom the same greater being. Juturna and Idas also have much more\ndistinctive names than Zak and Tzadkiel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you have any theory on what was going on with Great Scylla and the\nsmall army of\npresumably detachable women that seem to be growing from her back?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still haven't gotten around to those, but it's clear to me from the list\nchatter that the Short Sun books have numerous continuity conflicts with\nthe New Sun books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The pandours also seem to be undines, and their armored state heavily\nsuggests they are\neither few in number or individually valuable or both, rather than\npinched off a\nmountain-sized mass at need." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I think we agree that the pandours of Erebus are akin to the undines\nof Abaia,\npinched off or not. But since we don't see them in action, the armor could\nbe a mostly a\nliterary device to show they are warriors (as their pale skin is to show\nthey are from\nthe south/antarctic)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do we know they are Erebus'? Don't his overtly attested forces come\nover the ice onto the land like light infantry? The pandours are heavy\nmarine forces.\n\nI don't see that skin color supports their Ereban origin. Fuegians would\nhave to sit at the back of an Alabaman bus, there's no Antarctic natives\nto judge by, and arctic indigines like Sammi and Inuits are also darker\nthan the average caucasian. Maybe if they are white like cavefish from\nliving in Ereban darkness under the ice or even in some of his lava tubes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other, it may be that the pinching off process isn't quite a snap\nfor megatherians\nas Tzadkiel makes it appear. If Seawrack is a pinched off agent from the\nMother (and I\nknow that isn't a certain thing) it would seem The Mother decided it was\nmore expedient to\nuse the already created siren after her arm got shot off, rather than\ncreate a new one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Juturna could have been equally likely as Jolenta to be expelled from\nthe witches for being too lustful (she only wants the humans' love,\nrecall) and fallen in with the Abaians.\nOr she could have returned to her original family, the Abaians. It is\nvery suspicious that Dorcas is seen to revive when she is put in the\nlake water, that the boatman has such a long life in frequent contact\nwith the water, and they previously lived in a neighborhood surrounded\nby the river on three sides." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is an interesting theory. I especially like the observation\nof the\nriverine nature of Dorcas and her husband's house. It kinda feeds into my\nown\ntheories actually." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their house and neighborhood is also covered with green growth, like the\ngreen of the undines' hair, the Green Man's pond scum, and the giant\nsloth's coat at the Well near the fountain, though that is a thematic link\nrather than a continuitous one. Still, a pretty soggy outfit in moist,\nsultry company." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are three old boatmen who all seem to have a special interest in\nundines.\nOne is Dorcas' husband. Another is on the dock after Severian is rescued\nfrom drowning.\nThe third is Maxellindis' \"uncle\". I suspect all three are (essentially)\nthe same person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agree on the first two. The interest in undines doesn't mean they are the\nsame person, essentially all boatmen would have an interest in undines\nsince their profession puts them in a place to encounter them most\nfrequently." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9E23B2.9010506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T01:11:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<2a72e2cc058dde713c0ab982cb23a8f8.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/18/2011 5:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThe pandours also seem to be undines, and their armored state heavily\nsuggests they are\neither few in number or individually valuable or both, rather than\npinched off a\nmountain-sized mass at need." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I think we agree that the pandours of Erebus are akin to the undines\nof Abaia,\npinched off or not. But since we don't see them in action, the armor could\nbe a mostly a\nliterary device to show they are warriors (as their pale skin is to show\nthey are from\nthe south/antarctic)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do we know they are Erebus'? Don't his overtly attested forces come\nover the ice onto the land like light infantry? The pandours are heavy\nmarine forces.\n\nI don't see that skin color supports their Ereban origin. Fuegians would\nhave to sit at the back of an Alabaman bus, there's no Antarctic natives\nto judge by, and arctic indigines like Sammi and Inuits are also darker\nthan the average caucasian. Maybe if they are white like cavefish from\nliving in Ereban darkness under the ice or even in some of his lava tubes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was always my thought. Possibly the long winters at the Pole would \nbe the cause. OTOH, such details don't need to correspond exactly to our \nworld." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Their house and neighborhood is also covered with green growth, like the\ngreen of the undines' hair, the Green Man's pond scum, and the giant\nsloth's coat at the Well near the fountain, though that is a thematic link\nrather than a continuitous one. Still, a pretty soggy outfit in moist,\nsultry company." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9E4240.6030306@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T03:21:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9E23B2.9010506@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/18/2011 8:11 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/18/2011 5:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see that skin color supports their Ereban origin. Fuegians would\nhave to sit at the back of an Alabaman bus, there's no Antarctic natives\nto judge by, and arctic indigines like Sammi and Inuits are also darker\nthan the average caucasian. Maybe if they are white like cavefish from\nliving in Ereban darkness under the ice or even in some of his lava\ntubes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That was always my thought. Possibly the long winters at the Pole would\nbe the cause. OTOH, such details don't need to correspond exactly to our\nworld." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't think so either, except for the inclusion of the discussion \non how immigrant peoples come to resemble the likeness of the indigenous \ninhabitants." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T04:47:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9E4240.6030306@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I'm not sure why Death + Sin = monsters, beyond that the whole \nreason Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden is that they sinned and thus \nfound mortality. Cue Pandora and her box." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the monsters figure in if we add Adam's first mate Lilith (Jahi) to the mix.\n\nAfter the failed relationship, she mated with a fallen angel and produced many of \n\nearth's mythic monsters. (also, child-stealing was her special province, a tradition\n\nwhich extended to faerie folk and kelpies and such creatures who seem to lurk in the\n\nshadows of Wolfe's stories)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: How do we know they (the large pale pandours on the ship) are Erebus'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWell, I don't suppose we can know but I find it to be a reasonable conclusion.\n\nErebus is said to command cold, pale warriors. The ship and the undines and the\n\nvoices seem to clearly invoke Abaia. I take this scene as symbolic of the alliance\n\nbetween these two powers (or perhaps an even closer connection)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see that skin color supports their Ereban origin. Fuegians would\nhave to sit at the back of an Alabaman bus, there's no Antarctic natives\nto judge by, and arctic indigines like Sammi and Inuits are also darker\nthan the average caucasian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThat's good anthropology. But I interpret this idea in more literary terms.\n\nThe text does say Erebus resides in the Antarctic, like his volcanic namesake,\n\nand that he commands pale warriors. Moreover, the most southern-residing character\n\nwe meet is Hallvard, who is light in coloration. IIRC, Ascians are pale also, so I \n\nhave tended to think that pale color= colder home environment is a connection Wolfe \n\nuses in this story. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9EB67F.9000902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T11:37:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9E4240.6030306@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/18/2011 11:21 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/18/2011 8:11 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/18/2011 5:38 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't see that skin color supports their Ereban origin. Fuegians \nwould\nhave to sit at the back of an Alabaman bus, there's no Antarctic \nnatives\nto judge by, and arctic indigines like Sammi and Inuits are also darker\nthan the average caucasian. Maybe if they are white like cavefish from\nliving in Ereban darkness under the ice or even in some of his lava\ntubes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That was always my thought. Possibly the long winters at the Pole would\nbe the cause. OTOH, such details don't need to correspond exactly to our\nworld." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't think so either, except for the inclusion of the discussion \non how immigrant peoples come to resemble the likeness of the \nindigenous inhabitants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. But we don't know the pandours come from the southern peninsula. \nSince they arrive by troopship, they could be coming from anywhere, \nincluding farther south. Erebus is Darkness but also an Antarctic \nvolcano. Since Antarctica lacks natives ....\n\nOn another topic, maybe the Wall is still useful after all. The \ntroopship appears to have evaded any flyer patrols." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9EB6F4.7010101@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T11:39:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/19/2011 12:47 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: I'm not sure why Death + Sin = monsters, beyond that the whole\nreason Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden is that they sinned and thus\nfound mortality. Cue Pandora and her box." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the monsters figure in if we add Adam's first mate Lilith (Jahi) to the mix.\n\nAfter the failed relationship, she mated with a fallen angel and produced many of\n\nearth's mythic monsters. (also, child-stealing was her special province, a tradition\n\nwhich extended to faerie folk and kelpies and such creatures who seem to lurk in the\n\nshadows of Wolfe's stories)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did not know that!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: How do we know they (the large pale pandours on the ship) are Erebus'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I don't suppose we can know but I find it to be a reasonable conclusion.\n\nErebus is said to command cold, pale warriors. The ship and the undines and the\n\nvoices seem to clearly invoke Abaia. I take this scene as symbolic of the alliance\n\nbetween these two powers (or perhaps an even closer connection)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see that skin color supports their Ereban origin. Fuegians would\nhave to sit at the back of an Alabaman bus, there's no Antarctic natives\nto judge by, and arctic indigines like Sammi and Inuits are also darker\nthan the average caucasian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's good anthropology. But I interpret this idea in more literary terms.\n\nThe text does say Erebus resides in the Antarctic, like his volcanic namesake,\n\nand that he commands pale warriors. Moreover, the most southern-residing character\n\nwe meet is Hallvard, who is light in coloration. IIRC, Ascians are pale also, so I\n\nhave tended to think that pale color= colder home environment is a connection Wolfe\n\nuses in this story. \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're ahead of me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<05F0991430804647836DEFA925B6E960@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T11:54:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Both sides use the alzabo glands, for example. \nTyphon uses high technology" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not agree. Are you refering to the alzabo-like substance \nwhich transfers memories from the old Autarch to Severian? My\ninterpretation of the story does not allow for this sort of thing\nto come from angelic B, F and O." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They aren’t angels. For example, they engage in technology transfer with Baldanders, who vivisects women. The alzabo essence as used by the Autarchs is apparently benign [and the alzabo itself is described as having been brought from a distant planet for the use and benefit of mankind, although perhaps whoever said that was allowing him or herself a touch of irony — I don’t remember. It may well be that they were initially confined to zoos or farms. Like the inhumi, the alzabo would be simple animals if they did not feed on people.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe, in an interview, refers to the alzabo ceremony as a \n\"diabolic eucharist\" iirc. It seems clear that the memory transfer\nfrom autarch to autarch is the same sort of process and thus is\nequally diabolic and not the sort of thing which would come from \nangel analogs. Fallen angels on the other hand...yes that is a likely\nsource." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Eucharist is also the same sort of process as a diabolical Eucharist. Might not this be the appropriate analogy? There is certainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, the memory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not the case in the “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "p.s. Yes Typhon uses high technology but they are ancient machines dating\nback to a time before Urth became technologically backward and had to rely\non the dribs and drabs provided by limited cacogen contact. So his machines\nare not a part of this discussion. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems arbitrary. Both sides use whatever physical technology, biological technology or other magic is to hand, in my opinion. That also seems in accord with the other works of Wolfe, who does not, I think, consider any form of technology intrinsically evil, but only the uses of it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T12:16:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "larry miller: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It was always my understanding that there were many alien \nbeings on Urth and part of Severians unreliability as narrator was his \ninability to distinguish them from other beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but I think the question is whether these aliens are entirely a product\nof evolution on other planets or whether they are humans who left Urth in\nearlier waves, mutated, evolved and are now returned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You suggested earlier that Wolfe indicated this somewhere in _Urth_. Have you a link to this? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini: I think the Vanished People and the inhumi are man and their \nmodifications of themselves. Tree genetic template + mankind = vanished people, \netc. The tree integration is simply a modification of man and the lower animals.\nBut that's just me I guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the model makes sense. The thing is, if this story is going to retain a\nsemblance of Judeo-Christian relevance, I think a human occupied universe makes\nsome sense. Nobody really wants a green blob or crystalline structure Jesus \n(well at least not Gene Wolfe, I guess)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see why not. Wolfe’s aliens are often humanoid, but by no means always, and in many of his stories (certainly including the Urth cycle) he indicates that robots and androids as pretty much equivalent to people, and often morally superior. Even if all the aliens in the stories evolved from humans (and I personally think it’s pretty clear that they did not) the robots and androids obviously cannot have. A robot Jesus is not part of the Solar Cycle, obviously, but the concept would sit better with it than with most SF novels, crystalline structure or no.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9ECFCB.7060406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T13:25:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<05F0991430804647836DEFA925B6E960@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 7:54 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Both sides use the alzabo glands, for example.\nTyphon uses high technology" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do not agree. Are you refering to the alzabo-like substance\nwhich transfers memories from the old Autarch to Severian? My\ninterpretation of the story does not allow for this sort of thing\nto come from angelic B, F and O." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They aren’t angels. For example, they engage in technology transfer \nwith Baldanders, who vivisects women. The alzabo essence as used by \nthe Autarchs is apparently benign [and the alzabo itself is described \nas having been brought from a distant planet for the use and benefit \nof mankind, although perhaps whoever said that was allowing him or \nherself a touch of irony — I don’t remember. It may well be that they \nwere initially confined to zoos or farms. Like the inhumi, the alzabo \nwould be simple animals if they did not feed on people.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the term \"angels\" used here in its sense of \"agents of good\"? I'm not \nsure I see the slightest hint of morality or ethics anywhere in Briah, \non any \"side.\"\n\nThen again, I don't see angels themselves as particularly \"good.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe, in an interview, refers to the alzabo ceremony as a\n\"diabolic eucharist\" iirc. It seems clear that the memory transfer\nfrom autarch to autarch is the same sort of process and thus is\nequally diabolic and not the sort of thing which would come from\nangel analogs. Fallen angels on the other hand...yes that is a likely\nsource." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Eucharist is also the same sort of process as a diabolical \nEucharist. Might not this be the appropriate analogy? There is \ncertainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, the \nmemory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not \nthe case in the “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and \nunfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it \nis their users (and uses) that distinguish them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "p.s. Yes Typhon uses high technology but they are ancient machines \ndating\nback to a time before Urth became technologically backward and had \nto rely\non the dribs and drabs provided by limited cacogen contact. So his \nmachines\nare not a part of this discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That seems arbitrary. Both sides use whatever physical technology, \nbiological technology or other magic is to hand, in my opinion. That \nalso seems in accord with the other works of Wolfe, who does not, I \nthink, consider any form of technology intrinsically evil, but only \nthe uses of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this, but I also see First Empire technology as of native \nderivation." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T14:56:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9ECFCB.7060406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: There is certainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, \nthe memory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not the case in \nthe “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The process with the old Autarch does, superficially, seem more benign than the Vodalus\nbanquet and the voluntary aspect is probably part of it. But in my view, the old Autarch\nis a somewhat ineffectual figurehead in front of the true power of of his vizier and he\nis a sacrificial lamb for the hiero-types. He seems like a very sad and unfulfilled\nhuman being. The alzabo-like potion did him no favors (nor Severian, really). Without it\nhe (Apian?) would have remained a honey steward and probably ended up like the rather \nhappier character of Odilo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That also seems in accord with the other works of Wolfe, who does not, I think, consider \nany form of technology intrinsically evil, but only the uses of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given a purely literary reading of the text this might be so. But I am not only interested \nin the text but also the mental processes in the individual who created the text. I suppose\nBiology is an inherently \"ickier\" science than physics but I am just saying I detect an\nextra \"ewww\" factor in Wolfe's thinking about biology which goes back to 5HoC. (just had a \nthoughtflash of Jonas being disgusted with his meat parts; Sidero also. Perhaps WOlfe does\nsympathize with them a bit)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, but I think the question is whether these aliens are entirely a product\nof evolution on other planets or whether they are humans who left Urth in\nearlier waves, mutated, evolved and are now returned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You suggested earlier that Wolfe indicated this somewhere in _Urth_. Have you a link to this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI find it inherent in the story. We are first introduced to cacogens as weird, ugly aliens. Later \nthe text reveals that some of them (hierodules) are of human origin. Why not all of them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in many of his stories (certainly including the Urth cycle) he indicates that robots and androids \nas pretty much equivalent to people. A robot Jesus is not part of the Solar Cycle, obviously, but the \nconcept would sit better with it than with most SF novels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps. But it still doesn't happen. I think Long Sun would have been the perfect place for Wolfe to\ncreate a non-human savior. Could have been a chem or a god in the mainframe. But nope. Once again,\na human gets the role. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319038020.66325.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T15:27:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/19/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth-Earth links\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 5:16 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman \n\nThis is from Lee, I think:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the model makes sense. The thing is, if this story is going to retain a\nsemblance of Judeo-Christian relevance, I think a human occupied universe makes\nsome sense. Nobody really wants a green blob or crystalline structure Jesus \n(well at least not Gene Wolfe, I guess)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "?This is from Gerry:\nI don’t see why not. Wolfe’s aliens are often humanoid, but by no means always, and in many of his stories (certainly including the Urth cycle) he indicates that robots and androids as pretty much equivalent to people, and often morally superior. — Even if all the aliens in the stories evolved from humans (and I personally think it’s pretty clear that they did not) the robots and androids obviously cannot have. A robot Jesus is not part of the Solar Cycle, obviously, but the concept would sit better with it than with most SF novels, crystalline structure or no.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n?In this case, I feel the human nature of a messiah is very very necessary to?Wolfe's orthodox redemptive mindset: for a true scapegoat or savior to be valid, it must be part and parcel of the group it redeems. \n\nPerhaps imitation approaches transubstantiation, but the possibility of goodness in humanity to be chosen over evil, coupled with the perfectibility of the soul, would certainly never preclude a human savior, (though, if we want to map a reconciliatory path to Severian, he may just be ultimately the projection of a very advanced machine system by the end of Urth)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9EF422.2040007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T16:00:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/19/2011 10:56 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThat also seems in accord with the other works of Wolfe, who does not, I think, consider\nany form of technology intrinsically evil, but only the uses of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given a purely literary reading of the text this might be so. But I am not only interested\nin the text but also the mental processes in the individual who created the text. I suppose\nBiology is an inherently \"ickier\" science than physics but I am just saying I detect an\nextra \"ewww\" factor in Wolfe's thinking about biology which goes back to 5HoC. (just had a\nthoughtflash of Jonas being disgusted with his meat parts; Sidero also. Perhaps WOlfe does\nsympathize with them a bit)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Life is corruption, literally and figuratively. To live is to rot and \ndie (and rot again)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, but I think the question is whether these aliens are entirely a product\nof evolution on other planets or whether they are humans who left Urth in\nearlier waves, mutated, evolved and are now returned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You suggested earlier that Wolfe indicated this somewhere in _Urth_. Have you a link to this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find it inherent in the story. We are first introduced to cacogens as weird, ugly aliens. Later\nthe text reveals that some of them (hierodules) are of human origin. Why not all of them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't take it to the extreme, but I see a certain human \necho-chamber aspect to Briah. It's like a petri dish for Man. If it \nisn't OF us, it reflects us." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T16:20:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9ECFCB.7060406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "`On Wed, October 19, 2011 08:25, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/19/2011 7:54 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Eucharist is also the same sort of process as a diabolical\nEucharist. Might not this be the appropriate analogy? There is\ncertainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, the\nmemory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not\nthe case in the “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and\nunfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it\nis their users (and uses) that distinguish them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How is the analeptic use any worse than any other organ donation? Do you\nhold with Christian Science or Jehova's Witnesses?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<89C07E99C67D4172836141A832808D39@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T16:25:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) [BGSpam] Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There is certainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, \nthe memory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not the case in \nthe “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The process with the old Autarch does, superficially, seem more benign than the Vodalus\nbanquet and the voluntary aspect is probably part of it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More than that. One can argue that it symbolises a real Eucharist, as distinct from the diabolical one of the Vodalarii." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But in my view, the old Autarch\nis a somewhat ineffectual figurehead in front of the true power of of his vizier and he\nis a sacrificial lamb for the hiero-types. He seems like a very sad and unfulfilled\nhuman being. The alzabo-like potion did him no favors (nor Severian, really). Without it\nhe (Apian?) would have remained a honey steward and probably ended up like the rather \nhappier character of Odilo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One could make a similar argument regarding the life of Jesus Christ. Doing one’s duty for the people of Urth is not necessarily pleasant or comfortable, nor does it make one a dupe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That also seems in accord with the other works of Wolfe, who does not, I think, consider \nany form of technology intrinsically evil, but only the uses of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given a purely literary reading of the text this might be so. But I am not only interested \nin the text but also the mental processes in the individual who created the text. I suppose\nBiology is an inherently \"ickier\" science than physics but I am just saying I detect an\nextra \"ewww\" factor in Wolfe's thinking about biology which goes back to 5HoC. (just had a \nthoughtflash of Jonas being disgusted with his meat parts; Sidero also. Perhaps WOlfe does\nsympathize with them a bit)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you’re projecting. Sure Wolfe’s robots are sometimes a bit disgusted by flesh, or feel themselves superior, like the narrator of Eyebem. In All the Hues of Hell, by contrast, the robot feels like an equal, and hopes to have a relationship with a human woman. In Long Sun, the chems are superior in some ways and inferior in others. In Fifth Head, Mr. Million is not a perfect copy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes, but I think the question is whether these aliens are entirely a product\nof evolution on other planets or whether they are humans who left Urth in\nearlier waves, mutated, evolved and are now returned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You suggested earlier that Wolfe indicated this somewhere in _Urth_. Have you a link to this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find it inherent in the story. We are first introduced to cacogens as weird, ugly aliens. Later \nthe text reveals that some of them (hierodules) are of human origin. Why not all of them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh... the tentacles and stuff?\n\nThere’s also the point that in Wolfe, Earth itself is more often than not the native home of non-human intelligent races." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "in many of his stories (certainly including the Urth cycle) he indicates that robots and androids \nas pretty much equivalent to people. A robot Jesus is not part of the Solar Cycle, obviously, but the \nconcept would sit better with it than with most SF novels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps. But it still doesn't happen. I think Long Sun would have been the perfect place for Wolfe to\ncreate a non-human savior. Could have been a chem or a god in the mainframe. But nope. Once again,\na human gets the role. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is Silk a saviour? He seems more of a Moses. In Short Sun he may be more, but in this case he actually HAS melded with one of the digital gods of Mainframe.\n\nLa Befana might be a better example, in that the titular character seems to expect Jesus to be born again as a human on a planet where humans live along with an alien species. But then again, she could be wrong. She is alarmed by Zozz — could that be a subtle hint that the child she seeks will actually be born to one of Zozz’s people?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9EFC63.4080104@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T16:35:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 12:20 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n`On Wed, October 19, 2011 08:25, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/19/2011 7:54 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The Eucharist is also the same sort of process as a diabolical\nEucharist. Might not this be the appropriate analogy? There is\ncertainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, the\nmemory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not\nthe case in the “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and\nunfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it\nis their users (and uses) that distinguish them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How is the analeptic use any worse than any other organ donation? Do you\nhold with Christian Science or Jehova's Witnesses?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since both those sects define murder and suicide and messing with \ncorpses as immoral, I guess I do!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9F0500.1000501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T17:12:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9EFC63.4080104@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (19-10-2011 17:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 12:20 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "`On Wed, October 19, 2011 08:25, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/19/2011 7:54 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The Eucharist is also the same sort of process as a diabolical\nEucharist. Might not this be the appropriate analogy? There is\ncertainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, the\nmemory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not\nthe case in the “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and\nunfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it\nis their users (and uses) that distinguish them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How is the analeptic use any worse than any other organ donation? Do you\nhold with Christian Science or Jehova's Witnesses?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since both those sects define murder and suicide and messing with corpses as\nimmoral, I guess I do!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. Outside some parts of Christianity, I have seldom seen suicide \nconsidered immoral. Could you expand?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9F0748.6080105@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T17:22:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9F0500.1000501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 1:12 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (19-10-2011 17:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/19/2011 12:20 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "`On Wed, October 19, 2011 08:25, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 10/19/2011 7:54 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The Eucharist is also the same sort of process as a diabolical\nEucharist. Might not this be the appropriate analogy? There is\ncertainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, the\nmemory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not\nthe case in the “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and\nunfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it\nis their users (and uses) that distinguish them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How is the analeptic use any worse than any other organ donation? Do \nyou\nhold with Christian Science or Jehova's Witnesses?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Since both those sects define murder and suicide and messing with \ncorpses as\nimmoral, I guess I do!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting. Outside some parts of Christianity, I have seldom seen \nsuicide considered immoral. Could you expand?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not really---I was actually just being snarky. I don't know of any \nexamples outside The Big Three either. Even Islam disapproves of it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8a32bac9fcfd5817de5db560c6eaa25d.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T17:23:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9EFC63.4080104@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, October 19, 2011 11:35, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/19/2011 12:20 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "`On Wed, October 19, 2011 08:25, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/19/2011 7:54 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The Eucharist is also the same sort of process as a diabolical\nEucharist. Might not this be the appropriate analogy? There is\ncertainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, the\nmemory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not\nthe case in the “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and\nunfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it\nis their users (and uses) that distinguish them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How is the analeptic use any worse than any other organ donation? Do you\nhold with Christian Science or Jehova's Witnesses?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since both those sects define murder and suicide and messing with\ncorpses as immoral, I guess I do!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How is messing with corpses immoral? Do they not allow embalming?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9F0917.6070609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T17:29:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<8a32bac9fcfd5817de5db560c6eaa25d.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 1:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Wed, October 19, 2011 11:35, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/19/2011 12:20 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "`On Wed, October 19, 2011 08:25, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 10/19/2011 7:54 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The Eucharist is also the same sort of process as a diabolical\nEucharist. Might not this be the appropriate analogy? There is\ncertainly one analogical element, as in the autarchial process, the\nmemory donor voluntarily offers himself as a sacrifice, which is not\nthe case in the “diabolical Eucharist” of Vodalus and his followers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and\nunfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it\nis their users (and uses) that distinguish them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How is the analeptic use any worse than any other organ donation? Do you\nhold with Christian Science or Jehova's Witnesses?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Since both those sects define murder and suicide and messing with\ncorpses as immoral, I guess I do!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How is messing with corpses immoral? Do they not allow embalming?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, it's not MY religion. Obviously there's a fine line that tends to \nbe drawn around \"proper\" (and legal) and all other practices. Since only \nthe Autarch practices this one, you could go either way: is it a \nlegitimate part of a \"cult of the Emperor\"? or something to keep hidden \nfrom view? or both?\n\nAny way you slice it, it's not normal! (cue Church Lady). And worse, it \nresembles (as has been said many times) pagan slanders of Church \npractices. Parody or perversion, take your pick." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9F5522.7050700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T22:54:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<6497266520B34846ADCA06B86546B1E0@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n\n\n > Dr Talos more or less suggested that his functions was to nurse\n > Baldanders. Keeping him on his meds could be part of that. There may\n > also be side effects, such as uncontrolled rage.\n\nYes, I think so. Probably Talos actually carries out any operations\nBaldanders needs to carry out on himself — maybe even the surgical fitting\nof gills." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like it when Severian shows himself to be as dumb as us and misidentifies \nmaster and servant." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T01:38:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9F5522.7050700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: How is the analeptic use any worse than any other organ donation? Do you\nhold with Christian Science or Jehova's Witnesses?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAs I see it the difference lies in that there is no consciousness in a liver or cornea. \n\nIf a head transplant or brain transplant seems rather horrible, a partial version of that\n\nas alzabo/autarch analeptic is, seems partly horrible.\n\n \n\nWhen Severian discusses the topic with Ultan, he notes that Ultan gets a pretty disgusting\n\nlook of greedy desire on his face in considering the possibility of eating the bodies of\n\ncertain old masters and sharing their memories. I really don't think WOlfe intends this \n\nprocess to be considered a positive thing. Just like cloning, he explores the idea but\n\nwithin the context of horror. (and WOlfe openly owns to appreciating and having an \n\nintentional element of horror literature in many of his stories). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T02:01:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, October 19, 2011 20:38, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: How is the analeptic use any worse than any other organ\ndonation? Do you\nhold with Christian Science or Jehova's Witnesses?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I see it the difference lies in that there is no consciousness in a\nliver or cornea.\n\nIf a head transplant or brain transplant seems rather horrible, a partial\nversion of that\n\nas alzabo/autarch analeptic is, seems partly horrible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If they are entered into freely, how are those horrible? It's not as if\nSeverian suffers from his participation, quite the opposite. Appian gets\nless dead rather than more, and the predecessors also get to lend their\nwisdom a bit longer." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9F83CD.5050000@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-20T02:13:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 10:01 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Wed, October 19, 2011 20:38, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I see it the difference lies in that there is no consciousness in a\nliver or cornea.\n\nIf a head transplant or brain transplant seems rather horrible, a partial\nversion of that\n\nas alzabo/autarch analeptic is, seems partly horrible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If they are entered into freely, how are those horrible? It's not as if\nSeverian suffers from his participation, quite the opposite. Appian gets\nless dead rather than more, and the predecessors also get to lend their\nwisdom a bit longer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From that perspective, it's no different from getting scanned and \nuploaded. A little scary, maybe an ethical question or two, but you do \nit because the alternative is worse.\n\nBut that's almost a trip to the dentist in comparison. We're discussing \ncannibalism in the form of a mock Last Supper. I submit that there are \nother, formal considerations here that are higher than choice and \nself-determination." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9F8A8C.6080200@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T02:42:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9F83CD.5050000@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 9:13 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/19/2011 10:01 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, October 19, 2011 20:38, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As I see it the difference lies in that there is no consciousness in a\nliver or cornea.\n\nIf a head transplant or brain transplant seems rather horrible, a\npartial\nversion of that\n\nas alzabo/autarch analeptic is, seems partly horrible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If they are entered into freely, how are those horrible? It's not as if\nSeverian suffers from his participation, quite the opposite. Appian gets\nless dead rather than more, and the predecessors also get to lend their\nwisdom a bit longer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From that perspective, it's no different from getting scanned and\nuploaded. A little scary, maybe an ethical question or two, but you do\nit because the alternative is worse.\n\nBut that's almost a trip to the dentist in comparison. We're discussing\ncannibalism in the form of a mock Last Supper. I submit that there are\nother, formal considerations here that are higher than choice and\nself-determination." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like saving the world and preventing the extinction of the human race?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA003CD.9040302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-20T11:19:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4E9F8A8C.6080200@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 10:42 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/19/2011 9:13 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/19/2011 10:01 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, October 19, 2011 20:38, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "As I see it the difference lies in that there is no consciousness in a\nliver or cornea.\n\nIf a head transplant or brain transplant seems rather horrible, a\npartial version of that as alzabo/autarch analeptic is, seems \npartly horrible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If they are entered into freely, how are those horrible? It's not as if\nSeverian suffers from his participation, quite the opposite. Appian \ngets\nless dead rather than more, and the predecessors also get to lend their\nwisdom a bit longer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " From that perspective, it's no different from getting scanned and\nuploaded. A little scary, maybe an ethical question or two, but you do\nit because the alternative is worse.\n\nBut that's almost a trip to the dentist in comparison. We're discussing\ncannibalism in the form of a mock Last Supper. I submit that there are\nother, formal considerations here that are higher than choice and\nself-determination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like saving the world and preventing the extinction of the human race?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, that's not at all relevant to the point." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-20T13:48:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "<4EA003CD.9040302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: From that perspective, it's no different from getting scanned and\nuploaded. A little scary, maybe an ethical question or two, but you do\nit because the alternative is worse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: But that's almost a trip to the dentist in comparison. We're discussing\ncannibalism in the form of a mock Last Supper. I submit that there are\nother, formal considerations here that are higher than choice and\nself-determination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Like saving the world and preventing the extinction of the human race?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nIt isn't a idea which personally bothers me so much but I still get the impression Wolfe\nhimself is bothered. Adding to the Mr. Million and Typhon examples of the horror aspect\nof one's consciousness being transferred to another body, I'll add Lemur's and the other\nAyuntamiento members' situation in Long Sun. Surely all these are presented as horror,\nthough the process was voluntary and even desired and by command. Are there other examples\nfrom other stories?\n \nI agree with Jeff that as Severian is becoming Autarch it is presented as a positive thing\n(the \"scarlet ruin\" of the old autarch's face aside). After four books of being a \nwandering vagrant, Severian gets some power and luxury. He saves the memories and\nprovides a version of eternal life for all those previous autarchs. Life is good!\n \nI just get the impression that in the broader picture of Wolfe's work, eternal (material) life\nis not to be considered a good thing be it via cloning or robot existence or whatever.\nSeeking it and achieving it inevitably lead to horror and misery.\n \nI question whether Severian's autarchal status is directly necessary for his New Sun status. In\nmy view, the Hiero-types set up the New Sun quest for an autarch because they knew Severian\nwould be the autarch. The old autarch (and Ymar) fail not because they really failed a test but\nsimply because they weren't Severian.\n \nIt's been noted that, at minimum, the Hiero-types allowed Severian to participate in his brain-\nfeasts, so how could they be bad? In my view they allow a lot of bad things to happen because \nstopping them, enforcing human-level morality, is not their goal (a parallel to Earth's \nJudeo-Christian God).\n \nTrying to grasp the \"moral of the story\" I see Wolfe's model being that humanity is being forged.\nWe can label the hammer as evil because it hits us, and the anvil as good because it supports us\nbut they both play an equal role in shaping us.\n \nI think Wolfe uses divine beauty and horror in this story to provide us a way to distinguish good\nfrom evil. We are SUPPOSED to choose good. But if we attempt to escape our humanity for a moment\nand try to consider the universe from God's point of view we can sort of understand the necessity\nof evil, even if we are always supposed to choose against it.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T03:20:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth-Earth links", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had recently suggested that I thought Wolfe found Severian's meal of\n\nthe old Autarch's brain to be as diabolical as the Thecla meal and some\n\nother examples of consciousness trading in Wolfe stories.\n\n \n\nHowever I just found a previously unnoticed Wolfe quote which gainsays \n\nthat idea:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Jordan: Now the climax of that inversion seems to be when Severian " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "actually eats the brains of the preceding autarch. Did you see that as another " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "form of the diabolical communion? Or something that was necessary? It seems to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "be necessary to the novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene WOlfe: What I was doing was to say that in order to be a good ruler you " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "must be familiar with the tradition of that rule---of that country and of the people " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the past who have administered that rule. No, not diabolical in that case. The " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "diabolical thing is more Vodalus and the graverobbers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Jordan: Who are into it just for thrills." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene Wolfe: Well, yes they are doing it for trivial reasons. Evil is always a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "distortion or an exaggeration of something that is good. People don't understand " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n \n\nI'm not sure if this requires a revamping of my BotNS theory. On the other hand, \n\nWolfe's last sentence here fits perfectly with it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bart Everson", "address": "b at rox.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T03:47:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the circus of Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "<1318618085.92073.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what it's worth (not much in my opinion) *The Circus of Dr. Lao* was\nmade into a film, released in 1964, called *7 Faces of Dr. Lao*, starring\nTony Randall of all people. A very loose adaptation, and not at all\nsuccessful in my opinion, though some people seem to like it. You can get it\non Netflix etc.\n\nEditor B" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319255408.7027.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T03:50:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the circus of Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It also got referred to a number of times on Mystery Science Theater 3000... :)\n\n\n\n\n\nFor what it's worth (not much in my opinion) The Circus of Dr. Lao was made into a film, released in 1964, called 7 Faces of Dr. Lao, starring Tony Randall of all people. A very loose adaptation, and not at all successful in my opinion, though some people seem to like it. You can get it on Netflix etc.\n\nEditor B" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T16:54:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the circus of Dr. Lao", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bart Everson wrote:\nFor what it's worth (not much in my opinion) The Circus of Dr. Lao was made\ninto a film, released in 1964, called 7 Faces of Dr. Lao, starring Tony\nRandall of all people. A very loose adaptation, and not at all successful in\nmy opinion, though some people seem to like it. You can get it on Netflix\netc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A good film but a lousy adaptation. IMO." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] } ] }