{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6071", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6071, "subject": "Undine's nature", "messages": 17, "voices": 6, "first": "2011-10-17T17:36:10+00:00", "last": "2011-10-19T17:19:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T17:36:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is some interesting convergence of a couple threads which might warrant\na new thread title." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I like the idea of Baldanders giving himself gills. But then who and \nwhat is he? Why is he doomed to grow so large? Would it not work just as well if he's \nof Juturna's race and size, and those are natural gills Sev mistook for scars? Are we \nto believe Juturna must come up for air like a whale? What is her race anyway: is she a \nlarge human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? Let's get our assumptions \nstraight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis is an interesting new idea I hadn't ever heard before. It is a bit cryptic how\nBaldanders started as a small man suddenly appearing lakeside a couple generations ago.\nCould he have been like Idas then? There is some other tangential evidence to support\nthis theory I think, which can be seen in a further consideration of undines, below.\n \nI also kinda lean against the idea. Idas is an adolescent undine but she still appears as a tall\nslender human. Moreover, the words of Dr. Talos suggest Baldanders created his doctor to \nmaintain all the delicate hormonal adjustments which allow his growth to continue. Of course \nI think Dr. Talos is disingenuous on how Baldanders can breathe underwater but for some reason \nI am inclined to believe him regarding Baldanders' growth and the implication that it is unnatural." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either. She has been created or spawned by one \nof the sea monsters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree. Specifically Abaia, if we may believe the dream-undines' claim of being his daughter-brides.\nThat term is surely meant to provoke our instinct for incest revulsion but when you have a giant\ncreature who can reproduce asexually and who may be sequentially hermaphroditic like Tzadkiel, it\nstarts to seem a bit more natural (as incest was the natural mating pattern of the pagan god pantheons).\n \nMoreover I think the end of RttW supports this idea. Great Scylla is shown budding off a small army\nof female-shaped beings. What else could this be other than a production of undine-like beings. Actually\nI sort of think Great Scylla may actually BE Abaia. Scylla is associated with snakes and fish and Abaia\nis an eel. Fish-snake-eel provides a reasonable connection from which meaningless gender pronouns should \nnot divert our attention.\n\nA question which seem always danced around be never addressed is regarding who is Typhon's daughter really, \nScylla or Cilinia? Though the process isn't clear to me, I do have a strong sense that his daughter has a \ndual essence. Perhaps there was cloning involved but I think one iteration of her died as a girl, but another\nentered the sea and kept growing into the monster which became Great Scylla (and perhaps Abaia). Somewhere\nin Long Sun there is mention of the planet Scylla herself ruled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: His (Severian's) water breathing after the flood I believe is a mark of kinship with \nJuturna, along with her ability to access the corridors of time. In fact, I would say that it is as likely \nthat Juturna is Sev's sister as Merryn. \"Where is Severian's sister?\" \"She's right there, 100 feet tall! \nHow could you miss her?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've heard that theory before but it is quite a minority opinion I think. I think it has merit because there\nis the sexual attraction between Severian and Juturna which I find a necessary requirement for identifying\nSevera. I think the complete absence of sexual attraction, along with some other evidence, rules out Merryn .\n \nSo, I'd at least consider Juturna a likely relative of Severian's. I still think Jolenta is the best candidate\nfor being Severa. We are conspicuously not given her name when she is a waitress and her lack of history allows\nher to have been an expelled witch. Jolenta could be a stage name and while she doesn't have much of a sex\ndrive, she seems more attracted to Severian than to any other man. (it is indirect but something about the \nbuxom, red haired appearance of Jahlee in RttW seems like a clue to Jolenta and away from Merryn also)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't recall anything to suggest the skull Severian finds after the flood is literally his own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't find it a strong conclusion either but some do and my comments on the matter were meant for them. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T22:40:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "interesting idea. I also agree with you that Severa is Jolenta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/11, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nThere is some interesting convergence of a couple threads which might\nwarrant\na new thread title." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: I like the idea of Baldanders giving himself gills. But\nthen who and\nwhat is he? Why is he doomed to grow so large? Would it not work just as\nwell if he's\nof Juturna's race and size, and those are natural gills Sev mistook for\nscars? Are we\nto believe Juturna must come up for air like a whale? What is her race\nanyway: is she a\nlarge human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? Let's get our\nassumptions\nstraight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is an interesting new idea I hadn't ever heard before. It is a bit\ncryptic how\nBaldanders started as a small man suddenly appearing lakeside a couple\ngenerations ago.\nCould he have been like Idas then? There is some other tangential evidence\nto support\nthis theory I think, which can be seen in a further consideration of\nundines, below.\n\nI also kinda lean against the idea. Idas is an adolescent undine but she\nstill appears as a tall\nslender human. Moreover, the words of Dr. Talos suggest Baldanders created\nhis doctor to\nmaintain all the delicate hormonal adjustments which allow his growth to\ncontinue. Of course\nI think Dr. Talos is disingenuous on how Baldanders can breathe underwater\nbut for some reason\nI am inclined to believe him regarding Baldanders' growth and the\nimplication that it is unnatural." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either. She has\nbeen created or spawned by one\nof the sea monsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Specifically Abaia, if we may believe the dream-undines' claim of\nbeing his daughter-brides.\nThat term is surely meant to provoke our instinct for incest revulsion but\nwhen you have a giant\ncreature who can reproduce asexually and who may be sequentially\nhermaphroditic like Tzadkiel, it\nstarts to seem a bit more natural (as incest was the natural mating pattern\nof the pagan god pantheons).\n\nMoreover I think the end of RttW supports this idea. Great Scylla is shown\nbudding off a small army\nof female-shaped beings. What else could this be other than a production of\nundine-like beings. Actually\nI sort of think Great Scylla may actually BE Abaia. Scylla is associated\nwith snakes and fish and Abaia\nis an eel. Fish-snake-eel provides a reasonable connection from which\nmeaningless gender pronouns should\nnot divert our attention.\n\nA question which seem always danced around be never addressed is regarding\nwho is Typhon's daughter really,\nScylla or Cilinia? Though the process isn't clear to me, I do have a strong\nsense that his daughter has a\ndual essence. Perhaps there was cloning involved but I think one iteration\nof her died as a girl, but another\nentered the sea and kept growing into the monster which became Great Scylla\n(and perhaps Abaia). Somewhere\nin Long Sun there is mention of the planet Scylla herself ruled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: His (Severian's) water breathing after the flood I believe is\na mark of kinship with\nJuturna, along with her ability to access the corridors of time. In fact, I\nwould say that it is as likely\nthat Juturna is Sev's sister as Merryn. \"Where is Severian's sister?\"\n\"She's right there, 100 feet tall!\nHow could you miss her?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've heard that theory before but it is quite a minority opinion I think. I\nthink it has merit because there\nis the sexual attraction between Severian and Juturna which I find a\nnecessary requirement for identifying\nSevera. I think the complete absence of sexual attraction, along with some\nother evidence, rules out Merryn .\n\nSo, I'd at least consider Juturna a likely relative of Severian's. I still\nthink Jolenta is the best candidate\nfor being Severa. We are conspicuously not given her name when she is a\nwaitress and her lack of history allows\nher to have been an expelled witch. Jolenta could be a stage name and while\nshe doesn't have much of a sex\ndrive, she seems more attracted to Severian than to any other man. (it is\nindirect but something about the\nbuxom, red haired appearance of Jahlee in RttW seems like a clue to Jolenta\nand away from Merryn also)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't recall anything to suggest the skull Severian finds after the flood\nis literally his own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find it a strong conclusion either but some do and my comments on\nthe matter were meant for them. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6D935277AA01490C85761DD63B5C94B5@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-17T23:00:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either. She has been created or spawned by one \nof the sea monsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Specifically Abaia, if we may believe the dream-undines' claim \nof being his daughter-brides.That term is surely meant to provoke our \ninstinct for incest revulsion but when you have a giant creature who can\n reproduce asexually and who may be sequentially hermaphroditic like \nTzadkiel, it starts to seem a bit more natural (as incest was the natural\n mating pattern of the pagan god pantheons)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can they reproduce asexually? I don’t recall that we are told how they reproduce.\n\nActually I lean towards the idea that the undines are created by the sea monsters as detachable organs which are used for various functions: communicating with humans, going to war, and probably reproduction too. Perhaps there are male undines which serve as sea monster sperm, or perhaps the sea monsters directly fertilise the undines. Abaia may of course be capable of self-fertilising, which is a form of asexual reproduction I guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A question which seem always danced around be never addressed is \nregarding who is Typhon's daughter really, Scylla or Cilinia? Though \nthe process isn't clear to me, I do have a strong sense that his daughter\n has a dual essence. Perhaps there was cloning involved but I think one\n iteration of her died as a girl, but another entered the sea and kept \ngrowing into the monster which became Great Scylla (and perhaps \nAbaia). Some wherein Long Sun there is mention of the planet Scylla herself ruled." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI’ve never seen the question asked. I’ll go with the one that was human and that Typhon had scanned. Cilinia obviously made a bargain with Scylla, probably looking for help overthrowing her father and ruling herself, and identified with her, even seeing herself as something like Scylla, though human sized." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've heard that theory before but it is quite a minority opinion I think.\n I think it has merit because there is the sexual attraction between \nSeverian and Juturna which I find a necessary requirement for identifying\n Severa. I think the complete absence of sexual attraction, along with \nsome other evidence, rules out Merryn ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ruling out what most consider the most likely candidate for Severian’s putative sister, simply because he does not note that he is sexually attracted to her, seems a perverse reading in every sense of the word. (Most certainly the converse does not apply, or half the women of the Commonwealth must be Severian’s sisters.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, I'd at least consider Juturna a likely relative of Severian's. I still think \nJolenta is the best candidatefor being Severa. We are conspicuously not \ngiven her name when she is a waitress" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What need is there for it? Why would Severian know the name of the waitress anyway? I doubt they wear name badges in the inns of Nessus. And if Severian was speaking to the waitress, it would simply make it harder for Wolfe to have her appear later as another person without comment from Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and her lack of history allows\nher to have been an expelled witch. Jolenta could be a stage name and " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the name is probably derived from Jolie — it suggests someone who has been made beautiful, or wants to become beautiful. Of course she might have changed it or taken a stage name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "while she doesn't have much of a sex drive, she seems more attracted \nto Severian than to any other man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the risk of encouraging you, she also apparently sleeps with Dorcas, who would be her gran. But as a means of identifying long-lost sisters, the heuristic still seems thin.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9CB4B8.7080704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-17T23:05:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "<6D935277AA01490C85761DD63B5C94B5@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/17/2011 7:00 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've heard that theory before but it is quite a minority opinion I \nthink.\nI think it has merit because there is the sexual attraction between\nSeverian and Juturna which I find a necessary requirement for \nidentifying\nSevera. I think the complete absence of sexual attraction, along with\nsome other evidence, rules out Merryn ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ruling out what most consider the most likely candidate for Severian’s \nputative sister, simply because he does not note that he is sexually \nattracted to her, seems a perverse reading in every sense of the word. \n(Most certainly the converse does not apply, or half the women of the \nCommonwealth must be Severian’s sisters.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't assume that Sev is not attracted to Juturna, nor that an \nattraction is not returned. However, consummation seems \nimpossible---make of that what you will." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-18T02:16:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9CB4B8.7080704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry QUinn: Can they reproduce asexually? I don’t recall that we are told how " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "they reproduce." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nGiven what we are shown of Tzadkiel, The Mother and Great Scylla I think we can \n\ndeduce it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually I lean towards the idea that the undines are created by the sea monsters " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as detachable organs which are used for various functions" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nSounds like budding, which is a form of asexual reproduction. Again, we see that\n\nsort of budding of useful detachable parts rather explicitly in Tzadkiel, The Mother \n\nand Great Scylla. It also sounds like the self-multiplication mythological Pan/Faunus\n\nengages in. Perhaps we are actually in complete agreement on this issue, just using\n\ndifferent terms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jolenta could be a stage name " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the name is probably derived from Jolie — it suggests someone who has been " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "made beautiful" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nAnd since she is only called that name after she has been made beautiful for the stage, \n\nI think that lends further credence to the idea that Jolenta is a stage name. We are\n\ngiven the names of many characters less important than the waitress. Then there is the\n\nissue of her hair color...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "she also apparently sleeps with Dorcas, who would be her gran." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nCorrect. I perceive the incest curse to extend across all members of Severian's family.\n\nThis says something about his relationship to Agia and Agilus. (and explains the \n\nimpossible mutual sexual attraction Severian and Jolenta feel for each other at \n\nCtesiphon's Cross)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ruling out what most consider the most likely candidate for Severian’s putative sister, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "simply because he does not note that he is sexually attracted to her, seems a perverse " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "reading in every sense of the word." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n \n\nThis is a perverse story written by a perverse author. If your world/literary view still\n\ndirects you to think of WOlfe as a very chaste and sexually virtuous author after \n\nall these years I think that is to your eternal credit and speaks highly of your own\n\nmorally upstanding nature.\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<76A27E531285418BA57E322A5FA554FE@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T12:38:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A question which seem always danced around be never addressed is \nregarding who is Typhon's daughter really, Scylla or Cilinia? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon was human, so I pick the human one. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Though\nthe process isn't clear to me, I do have a strong sense that his daughter\nhas a dual essence. Perhaps there was cloning involved but I think one \niteration of her died as a girl, but another entered the sea and kept \ngrowing into the monster which became Great Scylla (and perhaps Abaia). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t such a theory is tenable, because Cilinia was scanned and uploaded to the Whorl at a young age. Since she clearly already identified with or thought herself akin in some ways to the monster Scylla, it seems most probable that Scylla was already fully developed at that time.\n\nI suppose it is possible that Cilinia’s emulated personality in Mainframe somehow stayed in communication with Scylla throughout the centuries of travel. But for Scylla to somehow develop from Cilinia, apart from being a flagrant contradiction of biology, also contradicts the beans story which suggests that the sea monsters are of extra-terrestrial origin (as does the existence of the Mother).\n\n- Gerry Quinn \n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T12:49:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "she also apparently sleeps with Dorcas, who would be her gran." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct. I perceive the incest curse to extend across all members of Severian's family.\nThis says something about his relationship to Agia and Agilus. (and explains the \nimpossible mutual sexual attraction Severian and Jolenta feel for each other at \nCtesiphon's Cross)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really don’t understand your obsession with this supposed “incest curse”. The women Severian is attracted to comprise a remarkably even social, geographic and biological cross-section of the inhabitants of the Commonwealth, which as well as being convenient to an author wishing to describe the realm, probably also has symbolic value given that Severian will eventually become Autarch, and then the Epitome of Urth. That they are all related to Severian — and therefore related among themselves — seems nigh on unbelievable.\n\nAnd *everybody* is attracted to Jolenta. That’s the point of her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ruling out what most consider the most likely candidate for Severian’s putative sister, \nsimply because he does not note that he is sexually attracted to her, seems a perverse \nreading in every sense of the word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a perverse story written by a perverse author. If your world/literary view still\ndirects you to think of WOlfe as a very chaste and sexually virtuous author after \nall these years I think that is to your eternal credit and speaks highly of your own\nmorally upstanding nature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perverse it may be, but that doesn’t mean that every perversity imaginable must necessarily be omnipresent in the text. Extraordinary hypotheses require extraordinary evidence.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T12:55:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9CB4B8.7080704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \n\nI wouldn't assume that Sev is not attracted to Juturna, nor that an \nattraction is not returned. However, consummation seems \nimpossible---make of that what you will.\n\nIt didn’t stop the giants in The Wizard Knight. The converse would at least be less painful for the female involved, even if not perhaps very satisfying. \n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9ED177.3060500@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T13:32:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 8:55 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n\nI wouldn't assume that Sev is not attracted to Juturna, nor that an\nattraction is not returned. However, consummation seems\nimpossible---make of that what you will.\nIt didn’t stop the giants in The Wizard Knight. The converse would at \nleast be less painful for the female involved, even if not perhaps \nvery satisfying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps giants of any kind lack strong sexual dimorphism for fundamental \nbiophysical reasons. Thus, they have proportionally small genitals that \nare more compatible with those of nongiants.\n\nProblem solved!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9ED368.4060009@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T13:40:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "<76A27E531285418BA57E322A5FA554FE@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 8:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI suppose it is possible that Cilinia’s emulated personality in \nMainframe somehow stayed in communication with Scylla throughout the \ncenturies of travel. But for Scylla to somehow develop from Cilinia, \napart from being a flagrant contradiction of biology, also contradicts \nthe beans story which suggests that the sea monsters are of \nextra-terrestrial origin (as does the existence of the Mother)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It occurs to me that creatures who enter the ecosystems of alien \nplanets, especially as \"beans,\" would do well to make use of the DNA of \nnative plants and animals to survive and to compete with them. This \nwould explain the apparent mixed human-nonhuman geno/phenotype as well \nas fitting the chaotic, cancer-like growth of the monsters.\n\nAnd it would provide a corporeal counterpart to the mental/spiritual \nimitative cannibalism of inhumi and alzabos." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319037504.39848.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T15:18:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/19/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Undine's nature\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 5:49 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "she also apparently sleeps with Dorcas, who would be her gran." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "?> Correct. I perceive the incest curse to extend across all members of Severian's family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This says something about his relationship to Agia and Agilus. (and explains the \nimpossible mutual? sexual attraction Severian and Jolenta feel for each other at \nCtesiphon's Cross)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really don’t understand your obsession with this supposed “incest curse”. The women Severian is attracted to comprise a remarkably even social, geographic and biological cross-section of the inhabitants of the Commonwealth, which as well as being convenient to an author wishing to describe the realm, probably also has symbolic value given that Severian will eventually become Autarch, and then the Epitome of Urth. That they are all related to Severian — and therefore related among themselves — seems nigh on unbelievable.\n\nAnd *everybody* is attracted to Jolenta. That’s the point of her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ruling out what most consider the most likely candidate for Severian’s putative sister, \nsimply because he does not note that he is sexually attracted to her, seems a perverse \nreading in every sense of the word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a perverse story written by a perverse author. If your world/literary view still\ndirects you to think of WOlfe as a very chaste and sexually virtuous author after \nall these years I think that is to your eternal credit and speaks highly of your own\nmorally upstanding nature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perverse it may be, but that doesn’t mean that every perversity imaginable must necessarily be omnipresent in the text. Extraordinary hypotheses require extraordinary evidence.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\nI agree with Gerry on this one. One perversity does not imply universal perversity. Blood calling to blood in the lake of birds is fine, but I never bought the \"golden\"?glow indicating relationship thing Borski brings up for the simple reason that Sev himself has black hair. \n\nThe huge socio economic diversity of the women make it impossible for them all to be related to him. Rather, individual descriptions should show genetic relationship: tall, thin waist but not weak looking, dark hair, pale. Pia is the only one who matches that description as far as I remember. — The only reason we are looking for Severa is the fact that names like that are usually paired in the common wealth, but one case of incest does not imply ALL cases of incest. \n\nWolfe blurs identity of one or two characters, but we shouldn't assume that all identities are completely blurred. Malrubius is not Paleamon, Juturna is not Dorcas. Inire is not everybody, though he might be somebody, or, with enough evidence, two somebodies." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T15:20:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "<1319037504.39848.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Is the term \"angels\" used here in its sense of \"agents of good\"? I'm not \nsure I see the slightest hint of morality or ethics anywhere in Briah, \non any \"side.\" Then again, I don't see angels themselves as particularly \"good.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nHm. Yes. I agree Hiero-types, like their earth angel analogs, do a lot of cruel, even horrific \nthings.\n \nWe understand that Judeo-Christianity has demonized and uglified the deities of competing \nreligions for doing the same sorts of things their own God and angels have done or sometimes\nfor doing things which are not harmful but just culturally offensive to Judeo-Christians.\n \nI think Wolfe has done this in the BotNS. One side possesses superhuman beauty while the other\nside is (imho) old and shrivelled or gigantic and monstrous. Since both sides do horrible things\nI think we are meant to understand that we/Severian are supposed to choose a side based not on\nour own personal moral judgements but rather on an intuitive feeling of \"rightness\". In other \nwords we (and Severian) must suspend our horror at the bad things we see happening around us and \nrely on faith that the \"right\" side will ultimately produce the best result." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and \nunfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it \nis their users (and uses) that distinguish them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree. Where we may disagree is that I tend to think that the Autarch's potion is, like alzabo, \na product of the Cumaean and provided by Father Inire. And these characters are not (anymore) on the \nside of the hiero-types. \n \nBut I could be wrong. Perhaps the hiero-types do provide the autarch his potion and Severian's serial \nmemories are important in his ascension to the New Sun. Maybe there is some discontinuity. Perhaps \nWolfewas thinking the Autarchy and the memories were important in writing the first four books. But \nin UotNS, the memories and the Autarchy seem useless at best and even a bit of a hindrence to his\nNew Sun function. (for example, the mutineers use a mock Autarch image in an attempt to divert \nSeverian from his New Sun function. The scene is cryptic but that's how I read it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It occurs to me that creatures who enter the ecosystems of alien \nplanets, especially as \"beans,\" would do well to make use of the DNA of \nnative plants and animals to survive and to compete with them. This \nwould explain the apparent mixed human-nonhuman geno/phenotype as well \nas fitting the chaotic, cancer-like growth of the monsters.\nAnd it would provide a corporeal counterpart to the mental/spiritual \nimitative cannibalism of inhumi and alzabos " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is Marc Aramini's position regarding the origin of Neighbors and Inhumi. I'm not sure if\nhe finds the process applies when aliens return to Urth. I tend to agree with the idea in general. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9EF679.1050708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T16:10:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 11:20 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Is the term \"angels\" used here in its sense of \"agents of good\"? I'm not\nsure I see the slightest hint of morality or ethics anywhere in Briah,\non any \"side.\" Then again, I don't see angels themselves as particularly \"good.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. Yes. I agree Hiero-types, like their earth angel analogs, do a lot of cruel, even horrific\nthings.\n\nWe understand that Judeo-Christianity has demonized and uglified the deities of competing\nreligions for doing the same sorts of things their own God and angels have done or sometimes\nfor doing things which are not harmful but just culturally offensive to Judeo-Christians.\n\nI think Wolfe has done this in the BotNS. One side possesses superhuman beauty while the other\nside is (imho) old and shrivelled or gigantic and monstrous. Since both sides do horrible things\nI think we are meant to understand that we/Severian are supposed to choose a side based not on\nour own personal moral judgements but rather on an intuitive feeling of \"rightness\". In other\nwords we (and Severian) must suspend our horror at the bad things we see happening around us and\nrely on faith that the \"right\" side will ultimately produce the best result." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and\nunfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it\nis their users (and uses) that distinguish them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Where we may disagree is that I tend to think that the Autarch's potion is, like alzabo,\na product of the Cumaean and provided by Father Inire. And these characters are not (anymore) on the\nside of the hiero-types.\n\nBut I could be wrong. Perhaps the hiero-types do provide the autarch his potion and Severian's serial\nmemories are important in his ascension to the New Sun. Maybe there is some discontinuity. Perhaps\nWolfewas thinking the Autarchy and the memories were important in writing the first four books. But\nin UotNS, the memories and the Autarchy seem useless at best and even a bit of a hindrence to his\nNew Sun function. (for example, the mutineers use a mock Autarch image in an attempt to divert\nSeverian from his New Sun function. The scene is cryptic but that's how I read it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right about that. And it may be that certain tech reaches Urth by \ncertain pathways---in fact this is necessary. There isn't a galactic \nAmazon where you can order anything you want, like the shipping guild in \nDune.\n\nBut the cacogens don't forbid anything. They know about the alzabo and \nallow it and don't seem to care. So even if Inire is \"fallen\" and he \ndevised the Autarchic transfer procedure (quite likely given his \nposition), it doesn't seem to offend or go against the hierodudes' \nsensibilities." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14f00689e1091f21a51fcb28b6cc0b60.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T16:31:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9ED368.4060009@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, October 19, 2011 08:40, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt occurs to me that creatures who enter the ecosystems of alien\nplanets, especially as \"beans,\" would do well to make use of the DNA of\nnative plants and animals to survive and to compete with them. This\nwould explain the apparent mixed human-nonhuman geno/phenotype as well\nas fitting the chaotic, cancer-like growth of the monsters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't forget the Pythagorean notion that beans are vessels for\ntransmigration, and possibly reincarnation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9EFD04.3040600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T16:38:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "<14f00689e1091f21a51fcb28b6cc0b60.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 12:31 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Wed, October 19, 2011 08:40, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It occurs to me that creatures who enter the ecosystems of alien\nplanets, especially as \"beans,\" would do well to make use of the DNA of\nnative plants and animals to survive and to compete with them. This\nwould explain the apparent mixed human-nonhuman geno/phenotype as well\nas fitting the chaotic, cancer-like growth of the monsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't forget the Pythagorean notion that beans are vessels for\ntransmigration, and possibly reincarnation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point, but how would that apply here?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3dd1362114bd624fd78be0de9dafbd9f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-19T17:11:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "<4E9EFD04.3040600@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, October 19, 2011 11:38, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/19/2011 12:31 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, October 19, 2011 08:40, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It occurs to me that creatures who enter the ecosystems of alien\nplanets, especially as \"beans,\" would do well to make use of the DNA of\nnative plants and animals to survive and to compete with them. This\nwould explain the apparent mixed human-nonhuman geno/phenotype as well\nas fitting the chaotic, cancer-like growth of the monsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't forget the Pythagorean notion that beans are vessels for\ntransmigration, and possibly reincarnation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good point, but how would that apply here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The \"beans\" may engender the resurrection or at least the cloning and\nmemory copy of specific individuals, rather than being generic monster\nseeds. This would make Scylla's threat just a pretext, the beans were\nmeant to be sown all along by the creatures who produced them, in order to\nreproduce their consciousness." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E9F06B5.5000600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-19T17:19:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undine's nature", "in_reply_to": "<3dd1362114bd624fd78be0de9dafbd9f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/2011 1:11 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Wed, October 19, 2011 11:38, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/19/2011 12:31 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, October 19, 2011 08:40, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It occurs to me that creatures who enter the ecosystems of alien\nplanets, especially as \"beans,\" would do well to make use of the DNA of\nnative plants and animals to survive and to compete with them. This\nwould explain the apparent mixed human-nonhuman geno/phenotype as well\nas fitting the chaotic, cancer-like growth of the monsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Don't forget the Pythagorean notion that beans are vessels for\ntransmigration, and possibly reincarnation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good point, but how would that apply here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"beans\" may engender the resurrection or at least the cloning and\nmemory copy of specific individuals, rather than being generic monster\nseeds. This would make Scylla's threat just a pretext, the beans were\nmeant to be sown all along by the creatures who produced them, in order to\nreproduce their consciousness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, so it's beans as interstellar mind transfer technology. Interesting \nidea. If anything, it seems even more compatible with the idea their of \nabsorbing and co-opting native DNA on planets they \"colonize,\" since \nminds naturally need bodies. And yet beans also grow into plants (in the \nright conditions)." } ] } ] }