{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6076", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6076, "subject": "Father Inire as Dionysus", "messages": 139, "voices": 14, "first": "2011-10-21T12:40:03+00:00", "last": "2011-10-28T16:35:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T12:40:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consider the flowery, grandiose language used by Inire in the letter Rudesind brings\nto Severian. Does it remind you of another character's writing and speech? Hint:\nsomeone who seems to know a great deal about the past and future history of Urth and\nhas rather miraculous powers of persuasion and anatomical transformation. A character\nwho does not possess a saint name but, like Inire, one from Greco-Roman mythology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJeff Wilson: Juturna?\n\n \nArgh! No, I meant Talos.\n \nThe end of RttW makes it pretty clear that The Outsider (and, through an ambiguous \nfather-son connection, Typhon) are meant to be tracked in some manner with the Earth god \nDionysus.\n\nThe Thracian worship of Dionysus involved casting him as \"Dionysus Bassareus\" or Dionysus\nthe Fox. The Bacchanalic revelers in that case tended to wear fox skins in contrast to the\nPan/Faunus goatskins worn by other Mediterranean Dionysus worshippers.\n \nWe are told Talos is fox-like and that he is a \"homunculus\" grown/created by Baldanders. But\nobviously Baldanders didn't use his own DNA to create him. What was the source material? And\nwhy does a doctor know so much about Commonwealth politics, mythology, eschatology and genesis \nand cosmic history (not to mention Severian's mother)?\n \nIn past posts, I've noted how Inire's name connects to Dionysus through Inuus/Faunus/Pan. \nI've mentioned how the name of the Green Man connects to Dionysus through the pagan/wiccan\nGreat God Pan.\n \nIt shouldn't matter but I'm starting to think I should change the name of my model from the\nFather Inire theory to the Dionysus theory. It isn't really that Father Inire is everywhere.\nInire himself is an appearance of a Dionysian analog god of Urth/Briah who really can\nbe found everywhere (including Long/Short Sun).\n \nFWIW, I used to be mystified by the dream appearance of Thecla's father as a large, bull-\nheaded figure. No longer. This Orphic Hymn sums it up nicely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hymn to Dionysus Bassareus Triennalis" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "COME, blessed Dionysius, various nam'd,\nBull-fac'd, begot from Thunder, Bacchus fam'd.\nBassarian God, of universal might,\nWhom swords, and blood, and sacred rage delight:\nIn heav'n rejoicing, mad, loud-sounding God, 5\nFurious inspirer, bearer of the rod:\nBy Gods rever'd, who dwell'st with human kind,\nPropitious come, with much-rejoicing mind. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA18414.3000502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-21T14:39:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/21/2011 8:40 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWe are told Talos is fox-like and that he is a \"homunculus\" \ngrown/created by Baldanders. But obviously Baldanders didn't use his \nown DNA to create him. What was the source material? And why does a \ndoctor know so much about Commonwealth politics, mythology, \neschatology and genesis and cosmic history (not to mention Severian's \nmother)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait! What does Talos know about Sev's mother?\n\nDr Crane always reminded me of Dr Talos. Both seem to know everything." } ] }, { "message_id": "<74063009D309403E92926A00487C3434@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T15:51:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The end of RttW makes it pretty clear that The Outsider (and, through \nan ambiguous father-son connection, Typhon) are meant to be tracked \nin some manner with the Earth god Dionysus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think the Dionysus references indicate anything more than his stature as a pagan god on ancient Urth (and Earth). Gods evolve as theology evolves. Dionysus was real (and so are Pas and the others), but the True God, of whom the Outsider is an aspect, is realer. That’s how I read Wolfe’s extra-textual observations on these matters.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA1A19A.3070607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T16:45:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA18414.3000502@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (21-10-2011 15:39):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/21/2011 8:40 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We are told Talos is fox-like and that he is a \"homunculus\" grown/created\nby Baldanders. But obviously Baldanders didn't use his own DNA to create\nhim. What was the source material? And why does a doctor know so much\nabout Commonwealth politics, mythology, eschatology and genesis and cosmic\nhistory (not to mention Severian's mother)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait! What does Talos know about Sev's mother?\n\nDr Crane always reminded me of Dr Talos. Both seem to know everything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's cause they're both Dr. You have to know a lot to be a Dr.\n\nWell, this looks like as good a place as any other to ask one simple question.\n\nAside from Dorcas-is-Severian's-grandmother (which as I have said doesn't \neven look that 'Wolfean' a 'puzzle' to me), have all those years of \ndiscussion produced anything concrete regarding any of the mysteries in any \nof the books? I mean - something which isn't pointed out and yet after \nsomeone uncovers it, everybody agrees it must be so? (Rajan-is-Silk is, I \nthink, pointed out several times.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T17:08:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA1A19A.3070607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: However, I'm getting at why Severian would not tell us \nthat Hethor and your other suspects are Inire. Does he not see? Or is he \nhiding it? If he is hiding it, why---which of the three reasons for a \ndishonest memoir applies?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThanks for that question. A couple hours ago I would have answered that it\nseems most likely that Severian is deliberately hiding the knowledge and I\nwould have discussed some possible reasons. (What are \"the three reasons for\na dishonest memoir\"? Sorry if I missed that being posted).\n \nBut your question led me to some new insight, which I will share very soon.\nPerhaps with a bit more time to ponder, and knowing specifically what the \"three\nreasons\" are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's an interesting distinction in the context of Briah. Is there a \nXian precedent for it? (Life = eternal life, or eternal growth?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I may not be enough of a Xian scholar to answer that. But it is my observation\nthat in many religions, including ancient Greek and Teutonic and Judeo-Christianity \n(and even their literary inspirations such as LOTR), human mortality is a gift\ndisguised as a curse.\n \nWe humans don't want to die and we envy the immortal gods. But as a race, we benefit\nfrom our mortality. Our short lives are connected to our great fertility, which is \nsomething the gods never have. They are bored and they cannot evolve. We can, because\nwe have lots of children and while we die, the kids quickly grow up and have their own.\n \nI think size IS related to this and I think Wolfe recognizes it. One ubiquitous feature\nof the pagan gods is that their true size is titanic. They must find a way to create a\nminiturized human form if they are going to walk among us and interact." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait! What does Talos know about Sev's mother?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, this relies on a few things. One is that the oval faced, olive-skinned maid who plays \nHoly Katharine is Catherine, Severian's mother. Another is an understanding that the oval-\nfaced, olive skinned woman that Severian sees on the Path of Air is Catherine.\n \nGiven those things, it becomes clear (to me, anyway) that Dr. Talos, in writing his play,\nknows that Catherine is Severian's mother. He writes in the play that the Contessa Carina \n(form of Catherine) is on the Road of Air being observed by a young man who looks like Severian. \nThis Contessa is served by three maids all of who have beheaded saint names (Lybe, Solange and \nKynaburga). And of course the maid Catherine is associated with beheading. And \"maids\" might be \nsuspected to be a euphemism for khaibits \"(credit to Dave Tallman for the original observations \nhere).\n \n(p.s. I can see the Dr. Crane similarity) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA1C5ED.5040700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-21T19:20:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/21/2011 1:08 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: However, I'm getting at why Severian would not tell us\nthat Hethor and your other suspects are Inire. Does he not see? Or is he\nhiding it? If he is hiding it, why---which of the three reasons for a\ndishonest memoir applies?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for that question. A couple hours ago I would have answered that it\nseems most likely that Severian is deliberately hiding the knowledge and I\nwould have discussed some possible reasons. (What are \"the three reasons for\na dishonest memoir\"? Sorry if I missed that being posted)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My three reasons (for Severian) are: (1) pretending to be an orphan (2) \nmaintaining a moral status just above rapist/motherfucker/serial killer \n(3) discreetly sidestepping that he has been \"set up,\" in both senses. \nSince Inire may be at the center of a web stretching from Ascians to \nAutarch to Vodalarii, he at least played a role in #3 and thus is \nrelegated to the background." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I may not be enough of a Xian scholar to answer that. But it is my observation\nthat in many religions, including ancient Greek and Teutonic and Judeo-Christianity\n(and even their literary inspirations such as LOTR), human mortality is a gift\ndisguised as a curse.\n\nWe humans don't want to die and we envy the immortal gods. But as a race, we benefit\nfrom our mortality. Our short lives are connected to our great fertility, which is\nsomething the gods never have. They are bored and they cannot evolve. We can, because\nwe have lots of children and while we die, the kids quickly grow up and have their own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and especially see Fairies, who are forever seeking humans to steal \nand make their King (i.e., consort to their Queen), who lives a year in \nbliss, then dies (see There Are Doors). Lots of background for racial \nbreeding theories there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think size IS related to this and I think Wolfe recognizes it. One ubiquitous feature\nof the pagan gods is that their true size is titanic. They must find a way to create a\nminiturized human form if they are going to walk among us and interact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An excellent metaphor!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wait! What does Talos know about Sev's mother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, this relies on a few things. One is that the oval faced, olive-skinned maid who plays\nHoly Katharine is Catherine, Severian's mother. Another is an understanding that the oval-\nfaced, olive skinned woman that Severian sees on the Path of Air is Catherine.\n\nGiven those things, it becomes clear (to me, anyway) that Dr. Talos, in writing his play,\nknows that Catherine is Severian's mother. He writes in the play that the Contessa Carina\n(form of Catherine) is on the Road of Air being observed by a young man who looks like Severian.\nThis Contessa is served by three maids all of who have beheaded saint names (Lybe, Solange and\nKynaburga). And of course the maid Catherine is associated with beheading. And \"maids\" might be\nsuspected to be a euphemism for khaibits \"(credit to Dave Tallman for the original observations\nhere)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Holy crap.\n\nSo Catherine is alive?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T21:15:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA1C5ED.5040700@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Consider the flowery, grandiose language used by Inire in the letter Rudesind brings\nto Severian. Does it remind you of another character's writing and speech? Hint:\nsomeone who seems to know a great deal about the past and future history of Urth and\nhas rather miraculous powers of persuasion and anatomical transformation. A character\nwho does not possess a saint name but, like Inire, one from Greco-Roman mythology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Juturna?\n\n\nArgh! No, I meant Talos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that wouldn't help the particular pattern I was hoping to find,\nof a distinctive Inire appearance in each book, since Talos is in\nevery book. (Which is rather striking, actually; not many characters,\napart from Severian himself, are. Dorcas, counting her brief cameo at\nthe end of COTA. Not sure if there's anyone else.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The end of RttW makes it pretty clear that The Outsider (and, through an ambiguous\nfather-son connection, Typhon) are meant to be tracked in some manner with the Earth god\nDionysus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you know what I think about that.\n\n\n What was the source material? And" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "why does a doctor know so much about Commonwealth politics, mythology, eschatology and genesis\nand cosmic history (not to mention Severian's mother)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He knows about Carina, who either is Severian's mother or is somehow\nsymbolically linked with her - I don't see that he has to know that\nshe is Severian's mother. Regarding his knowledge in general,\nsometimes I wonder if he has read the Book of the New Sun (Wolfe's,\nnot Canog's). (Or, more rationally, has read Severian's narrative,\nwhich, cast on the seas of time, finally came to a place where Talos\ncould find it. He says that his play is based on the _lost_ Book of\nthe New Sun: Canog's doesn't seem to be lost, if Thecla could order it\nup from the library.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T21:28:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote:\nWell, that wouldn't help the particular pattern I was hoping to find,\nof a distinctive Inire appearance in each book, since Talos is in\nevery book. (Which is rather striking, actually; not many characters,\napart from Severian himself, are. Dorcas, counting her brief cameo at\nthe end of COTA. Not sure if there's anyone else.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He-He-Hethor?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T14:48:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "why does a doctor know so much about Commonwealth politics, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mythology, eschatology and genesis and cosmic history (not to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mention Severian's mother)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: He knows about Carina, who either is Severian's mother " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or is somehow symbolically linked with her - I don't see that he has " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to know that she is Severian's mother....Regarding his knowledge in " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "general, sometimes I wonder if he has read the Book of the New Sun\n\n \n\n \n\nI'm not following this. HOw does a doctor, created and bred solely to\n\nminister to Baldanders, know of the Contessa Carina? He lives in a remote\n\nplace. He is not supposed to be privy to the lives of exultants nor the \n\npolitics of the House Absolute and Carina is not found in Severian's writings \n\n(except, of course as a contribution from Talos, himself).\n\n \n\nTalos' play contains cosmic knowlege of the past and future of a type known\n\nonly to a very few others such as Malrubius and Cyriaca's mysterious uncle.\n\nI cannot ignore the source of this knowledge for each of these characters \n\nas an important literary clue to the subtext of the story.\n\n \n\nFWIW, I note that, like Catherine, Cyriaca is a dark-haired, oval-faced\n\nfailed Pelerine. I don't think her connection to a cosmically knowlegeable\n\nuncle is a coincidence. His status as a dealer in rare books would seem\n\nto link him to the curators like Ultan, Rudesind and the boss guy at the \n\nBotanic Garden. The curators are, surely, linked to Father Inire.\n\n \n\nCyriaca seems to have spent long hours alone as a young woman with this\n\nuncle. If he is Father Inire, that is grounds for a little moment of \"hmmm...\"\n\nA moment similar to Severian's \"hmm...\" on meeting the boatman, \n\nMaxellindis' \"uncle\".\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<12af4bdab9db6daee4f2d78cdcadfab9.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T15:25:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, October 22, 2011 09:48, Lee Berman wrote:\nI'm not following this. HOw does a doctor, created and bred solely to\n\nminister to Baldanders, know of the Contessa Carina? He lives in a remote\n\nplace. He is not supposed to be privy to the lives of exultants nor the\n\npolitics of the House Absolute and Carina is not found in Severian's\nwritings\n\n(except, of course as a contribution from Talos, himself).\n\n\n\nTalos' play contains cosmic knowlege of the past and future of a type\nknown\n\nonly to a very few others such as Malrubius and Cyriaca's mysterious\nuncle.\n\nI cannot ignore the source of this knowledge for each of these characters\n\nas an important literary clue to the subtext of the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Talos' cosmic knowledge could easily have come from FB&O's\nwisdom-spreading audiences with Baldanders. His society knowledge can as\neasily have come from his association with the upper classes as a popular\ntraveling entertainer, and perhaps as a keen eavesdropper endowed with\nfoxlike senses." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319301283.19132.YahooMailNeo@web114711.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T16:34:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nwhy does a doctor know so much about Commonwealth politics, \nmythology, eschatology and genesis and cosmic history (not to \nmention Severian's mother)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: He knows about Carina, who either is Severian's mother \nor is somehow symbolically linked with her - I don't see that he has \nto know that she is Severian's mother....Regarding his knowledge in \ngeneral, sometimes I wonder if he has read the Book of the New Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not following this. HOw does a doctor, created and bred solely to\nminister to Baldanders, know of the Contessa Carina? He lives in a remote\nplace." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's traveled a good deal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is not supposed to be privy to the lives of exultants nor the \npolitics of the House Absolute" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we told something about Dr. Talos's knowledge of those subjects?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Carina is not found in Severian's writings \n(except, of? course as a contribution from Talos, himself).\n\nTalos' play contains cosmic knowlege of the past and future of a type known\nonly to a very few others such as Malrubius and Cyriaca's mysterious uncle.\nI cannot ignore the source of this knowledge for each of these characters \nas an important literary clue to the subtext of the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nFamulimus says that Baldanders \"hoards up past lore\". I see no obstacle to Dr. T.'s knowing this lore too. He must know the medical parts. As for Cyriaca's uncle, there's no reason to ignore her statement that his knowledge came from books, specifically one that hadn't been opened for a chiliad, he thought.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T16:37:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<1319301283.19132.YahooMailNeo@web114711.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Talos' cosmic knowledge could easily have come from FB&O's\nwisdom-spreading audiences with Baldanders. His society knowledge can as\neasily have come from his association with the upper classes as a popular\ntraveling entertainer, and perhaps as a keen eavesdropper endowed with\nfoxlike senses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nGreat post Jeff. Yes, it could have.\n\n \n\nHere's the thing for me- We have the mystery of Dr. Talos' knowledge. It is\n\na mystery because it is not explained and I think we are supposed to figure \n\nit out. We have competing theories: 1. he is a keen eavesdropper and 2. He\n\nis really a version of the mysterious Father Inire.\n\n \n\nIf this was the real world, I think #1 is the better explanation. It is plain\n\nand simple and thus better via Occam's principle. But this is a work of fantastical\n\nfiction and for me, the fantastical #2 solution to a mystery is simply more fun.\n\n \n\nWOlfe gives us the mystery of a flying cathedral and later gives us the pedestrian\n\nanswer that it is simply a big tent flying like a hot air balloon. So there are\n\npedestrian answers to some mysteries. It's just that he provides the answer to\n\nthat one. The mysteries we are supposed to figure out for ourselves ought to \n\nhave cool, interesting solutions, I think. If we are willing to put the thought\n\ninto solving his mysteries wouldn't he want to reward us rather than provide a yawn?\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA32569.7030700@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-22T20:19:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/22/2011 10:48 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nFWIW, I note that, like Catherine, Cyriaca is a dark-haired, oval-faced\n\nfailed Pelerine. I don't think her connection to a cosmically knowlegeable\n\nuncle is a coincidence. His status as a dealer in rare books would seem\n\nto link him to the curators like Ultan, Rudesind and the boss guy at the\n\nBotanic Garden. The curators are, surely, linked to Father Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(1) Anyone who deals in rare books knows the Librarians. There are very \nfew Librarians; therefore, anyone who deals in rare books knows Ultan. \nAnyone who knows Ultan may know his boss Inire. Inire most certainly \ndeals in very, very rare books. Therefore, Cyriaca's uncle knows Inire, \nat least.\n\nUltan is so tall I can't imagine Cyriaca being related to him. Inire is \nso unimaginable (dark? small? old?), I can't imagine Cyriaca being \nrelated to him. So I'm stumped, but there is definitely something there.\n\n(2) One way out may be that Inire is the \"uncle\" of every little girl \nwho knows him. Inire knows all the little girls at court; therefore, \nInire is the \"uncle\" of every little girl at court. Cyriaca was a little \ngirl at court; therefore, Inire is her uncle." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA32E02.2090807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-22T20:56:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/22/2011 12:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nHere's the thing for me- We have the mystery of Dr. Talos' knowledge. It is\n\na mystery because it is not explained and I think we are supposed to figure\n\nit out. We have competing theories: 1. he is a keen eavesdropper and 2. He\n\nis really a version of the mysterious Father Inire.\n\n\n\nIf this was the real world, I think #1 is the better explanation. It is plain\n\nand simple and thus better via Occam's principle. But this is a work of fantastical\n\nfiction and for me, the fantastical #2 solution to a mystery is simply more fun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's a theory that is neither pedestrian nor fantastical, but based on \nthe story and what we know of its characters. Talos has the task of \nscraping up cash for Baldanders. He writes and directs plays and is \ntherefore incredibly literate. He probably reads extremely fast, being \nunnatural and unusually intelligent. He knows his audience. He travels \nand listens.\n\nWhat sort of information does this leave out? Perhaps some military-type \ninformation, certain arcane technologies, battle tactics. But certainly \nall religion, philosophy, history, etc.\n\nTo me, the bigger key is the Book itself. The bit about Carina does seem \ncircular in origin, since there doesn't seem to be any reason for anyone \noutside the story to know Catherine without knowing Severian is her son. \nWhy would anyone know that?\n\nWell, certain people know---certain people at the House Absolute. And \nthese people deal in rare books.\n\nDoes anyone think it unlikely that Ultan lends Talos books by the hundreds?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA34C5C.5090808@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T23:06:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/22/2011 11:37 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWOlfe gives us the mystery of a flying cathedral and later gives us the pedestrian\n\nanswer that it is simply a big tent flying like a hot air balloon. So there are\n\npedestrian answers to some mysteries. It's just that he provides the answer to\n\nthat one. The mysteries we are supposed to figure out for ourselves ought to\n\nhave cool, interesting solutions, I think. If we are willing to put the thought\n\ninto solving his mysteries wouldn't he want to reward us rather than provide a yawn?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of the provided answers are pretty spectacular - the citadel towers \nare actually rocket ships, the giant cataphracts are a mix of \nmountain-carving construction machinery and flying combat mecha!\n\nAnd so, I don't consider \"mundane\" answers like, \"Dr Talos spies on his \npublic\" to be disappointing because not everything can be spectacular - \nand Dr Talos is in the business of putting on a show of spectacle, so \nit's well in character for him to be doing \"regular\" stuff like a stage \nmagician. The mundania in NEW SUN is all the more remarkable for being \npresent on Urth as it is on our archaic Earth, and that's an important \ntheme; some things don't really change, like human nature and human \nsolutions to that nature's shortcomings.\n\nWhat about Hildegrin's business card? Is it too yawny to think that \nthere remains a printing industry in Nessus? Or does he dig up crates of \nthem, then fling a bottle into the sea with a note letting the Green Man \nknow where to bury the next batch in the previous chiliad?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T01:27:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA34C5C.5090808@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Ultan is so tall I can't imagine Cyriaca being related " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to him. Inire is so unimaginable (dark? small? old?), I can't imagine " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cyriaca being related to him. So I'm stumped, but there is definitely " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "something there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but if the Inire as Dionysus idea is correct, we can't rely on \n\n\"normal\" expectations for human size and reproduction consideratons. \n\nConsider the example of Semele, mother of Dionysus. She was killed because \n\nshe forced her lover, Zeus, to appear to her in his true form.\n\n \n\nConsider the lessons we are given about shapeshifters in Foila's story\n\nand Zak on the ship. They can appear in various forms and sizes. But \n\nthere is always something (and not always the same thing for all \n\nincarnations) to mark them. It could be a gold ring or brown, bird-like \n\nfeatures. It could be a hairy, monkey-ish appearance or the mysterious \n\nclues that allows Severian to recognize the giant handsome guy and the even\n\nbigger angel creatures as Zak/Tzadkiel.\n\n \n\nIf the appearance of Inire represent pinched off pieces of a larger being,\n\nwhy can't they be of different sizes and shapes, as we see in the Tzadkiel\n\nexample? (and if these god/angel/demon creatures were originally of human\n\norigin, it helps explain the DNA problem, as someone else noted). And the\n\nshapeshifter clues are multiple- small bent and twisted and/or monkey-like\n\nand/or having obscured face/eyes and/or a creative artistic bent, and/or\n\nred hair etc. The identity mark for Father Inire is a constellation of \n\ntraits not just one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One way out may be that Inire is the \"uncle\" of every little girl \nwho knows him. Inire knows all the little girls at court; therefore, \nInire is the \"uncle\" of every little girl at court." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI do agree with this scenario. But it ignores the creepy undertones of\n\nthe Thecla and Domnina story. Wolfe openly blends Britsh literature and \n\nGreek mythology in The Boy Called Frog. Why not the same with Father Inire,\n\nblending Lewis Carroll with the greek gods (and fallen angels) who just\n\ncan't seem to stop their lechery toward young human maidens?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyone who deals in rare books knows the Librarians. There are very \nfew Librarians; therefore, anyone who deals in rare books knows Ultan. \nAnyone who knows Ultan may know his boss Inire. Inire most certainly \ndeals in very, very rare books. Therefore, Cyriaca's uncle knows Inire, \nat least." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nYes, and Dr. Talos could have overheard conversations of Baldanders with \n\nB, F and O. Etc. I am not arguing that these sorts of explanations are \n\nimpossible or improbable or unlikely as Gerry might say. \n\n \n\nI guess it's just that I can't really consider them real explanations. They \n\nhave been devised not previously to explain mysteries but solely as counter-\n\narguments against Father Inire-Dionysus. Maybe they are a way of saying the\n\nknowledge of Dr. Talos and Cyriaca's uncle just aren't mysterious.\n\n \n\nBut to me they are. And given a choice between a collection of unrelated post \n\nhoc arguments to explain each mystery away or one kinda cool (for me) theory\n\nwhich explain these and many other mysteries and ties the whole Sun series \n\ntogether, I hope it can be seen why Father Inire theory retains its appeal to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: What about Hildegrin's business card? Is it too yawny to think that \nthere remains a printing industry in Nessus? Or does he dig up crates of \nthem, then fling a bottle into the sea with a note letting the Green Man \nknow where to bury the next batch in the previous chiliad?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI don't consider Hildegren's business card to be a mystery. Do you? As stated \n\npreviously, I think fantastic answers are the appropriate and necessary reward\n\nfor solving mysteries for which we are not given the answsers. I don't find\n\nthis post helpful or amusing but I suppose I can give it a B for snark factor. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA3729A.3030007@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-23T01:49:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/22/2011 9:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Ultan is so tall I can't imagine Cyriaca being related to him. Inire is so unimaginable (dark? small? old?), I can't imagine Cyriaca being related to him. So I'm stumped, but there is definitely something there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but if the Inire as Dionysus idea is correct, we can't rely on\n\n\"normal\" expectations for human size and reproduction consideratons.\n\nConsider the example of Semele, mother of Dionysus. She was killed because\n\nshe forced her lover, Zeus, to appear to her in his true form.\n\n\n\nConsider the lessons we are given about shapeshifters in Foila's story\n\nand Zak on the ship. They can appear in various forms and sizes. But\n\nthere is always something (and not always the same thing for all\n\nincarnations) to mark them. It could be a gold ring or brown, bird-like\n\nfeatures. It could be a hairy, monkey-ish appearance or the mysterious\n\nclues that allows Severian to recognize the giant handsome guy and the even\n\nbigger angel creatures as Zak/Tzadkiel.\n\n\n\nIf the appearance of Inire represent pinched off pieces of a larger being,\n\nwhy can't they be of different sizes and shapes, as we see in the Tzadkiel\n\nexample? (and if these god/angel/demon creatures were originally of human\n\norigin, it helps explain the DNA problem, as someone else noted). And the\n\nshapeshifter clues are multiple- small bent and twisted and/or monkey-like\n\nand/or having obscured face/eyes and/or a creative artistic bent, and/or\n\nred hair etc. The identity mark for Father Inire is a constellation of\n\ntraits not just one.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This makes a lot of sense, but it also strikes me as just too deep. Too \nreligious; too revelatory; too steeped in \"lore.\"\n\nI think with mythology one runs the risk of seeing patterns everywhere, \nbecause mythologies are webs. Wolfe knows this and takes advantage of \nit, but usually he selects threads. Inire as a mass of contradictory \ntraits is a brilliant idea. But it's huge! Can the text support it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One way out may be that Inire is the \"uncle\" of every little girl\nwho knows him. Inire knows all the little girls at court; therefore,\nInire is the \"uncle\" of every little girl at court." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do agree with this scenario. But it ignores the creepy undertones of\n\nthe Thecla and Domnina story. Wolfe openly blends Britsh literature and\n\nGreek mythology in The Boy Called Frog. Why not the same with Father Inire,\n\nblending Lewis Carroll with the greek gods (and fallen angels) who just\n\ncan't seem to stop their lechery toward young human maidens?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I don't ignore that at all. There are uncles and then there are \n\"uncles.\" Make of it what you will!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyone who deals in rare books knows the Librarians. There are very\nfew Librarians; therefore, anyone who deals in rare books knows Ultan.\nAnyone who knows Ultan may know his boss Inire. Inire most certainly\ndeals in very, very rare books. Therefore, Cyriaca's uncle knows Inire,\nat least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, and Dr. Talos could have overheard conversations of Baldanders with\n\nB, F and O. Etc. I am not arguing that these sorts of explanations are\n\nimpossible or improbable or unlikely as Gerry might say.\n\n\n\nI guess it's just that I can't really consider them real explanations. They\n\nhave been devised not previously to explain mysteries but solely as counter-\n\narguments against Father Inire-Dionysus. Maybe they are a way of saying the\n\nknowledge of Dr. Talos and Cyriaca's uncle just aren't mysterious.\n\n\n\nBut to me they are. And given a choice between a collection of unrelated post\n\nhoc arguments to explain each mystery away or one kinda cool (for me) theory\n\nwhich explain these and many other mysteries and ties the whole Sun series\n\ntogether, I hope it can be seen why Father Inire theory retains its appeal to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly. But even mysterious explanations need to acknowledge and be \ngrounded in the everyday likelihoods that Wolfe also builds into his \nstories. There just cannot be so many top-notch rare book dealers in \nNessus that a very knowledgeable one can remain anonymous.\n\nBTW, it occurs to me that Appian is another dealer in rare books: it is \nhe who displays the human leather-bound book to Severian. He may be a \nbetter candidate for uncle to Cyriaca; after all, she may have no idea \nshe is the Autarch. And he would know firsthand all those stories." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T02:20:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA3729A.3030007@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This post is for David Stockhoff to whom I promised an answer\n\nto his question on what benefit Severian might have for keeping\n\nFather Inire in such difficult to penetrate disguises.\n\n \n\nI think this question was carried on the assumption that Severian\n\nhoping to hide his and his family's incestuous nature was sufficient\n\ngrounds to keep his family members hidden, to various degrees of\n\ndifficulty.\n\n \n\nI could answer the question about Father Inire in similar terms. As\n\na Greek god analog he is incestuous by nature. It is he who brings\n\nthe embarassing curse of incest to Severian's family and keeping him\n\nin disguise is sort of a reflex. Mentioning him as royal vizier is okay\n\nbut admiting he is Dorcas' husband, Cyriaca's uncle and certain others\n\nwould be too revealing in the incest department.\n\n \n\nI could also answer that he is a cacogen, a sort of being which is held \n\nin some disgust in the Commonwealth. Perhaps Severian doesn't want to\n\ndisgust his readers by admitting any closer association than necessary.\n\n \n\nThose answers are okay, though not completely satifying. But a recent insight\n\nsuggested there may be more to it, if we consider another level of literary\n\ninterpretation. Together, the two levels might be a good answer.\n\n \n\nDavid, in the past we've had discussions about the literary theme of \"God is\n\nto universe as author is to story\". And we I think we agreed that a \n\nreligious scholar like Wolfe is insightful enough to consider that an author\n\nis more properly considered as a demiurge than god. \n\n \n\nActually I'd like to digress and add to that discussion for a paragraph or two. \n\nThe demiurge is the all-powerful creator of the material world and all that is\n\nin it. Where the demiurge is incomplete is that he lacks participation in the\n\nspirit. (and free will is a component of the spirit, so a demiurge cannot fully\n\ncontrol a conscious human being).\n\n \n\nSo, in literature, the author is the demiurge. He can control anything and \n\neverything in his story except for one thing. The spiritual component of a\n\nstory, which is the reader. The author can influence but cannot control how each of \n\nhis readers chooses to understand and interpret his stories.\n\n \n\nAnyway, there is a famous anecdote that I can't fully place just now. It was in some\n\nlecture where some person of note in the lupine universe surprised Wolfe with the \n\nquestion, \"can we assume that the name of Number 5 and Maitre is Gene Wolfe?\" Caught\n\nby surprise, Wolfe blurted out \"yes!\". But this admission of metafiction and veiled\n\nautobiography is not something Wolfe is prone to admit. That may be the only example.\n\n \n\nIt isn't something new for analysts to suggest Gene WOlfe puts himself into his stories.\n\nNumber 5, Weer, Severian, Ouen and Horn (not sure about Silkhorn) are oft noted candidates.\n\n \n\nWe have discussed how Father Inire can be seen as a demiurgical figure to the Commonwealth\n\nas Tzadkiel is to his ship, as Typhon-Pas is to the Whorl and how The Outsider is to the\n\nuniverse of Briah.\n\n \n\nWolfe has stated that Severian can be considered an aspect of The Outsider. If Wolfe recognizes \n\nhis role as demiurge in creating the Sun series, is it possible he has put himself into \n\nthe story AS The Outsider? This recognizes Severian as an aspect of himself but also makes\n\nFather Inire (and Typhon and Tzadkiel the Angel of Judgement) as aspects of himself. \n\n \n\nCould this be the reason Severian is so reticent about Father Inire? Does Wolfe make him do this\n\nto hide (but also provide a clue) that Gene Wolfe is lurking in various disguises throughout this\n\nstory. Afterall, creating such human-form agents to accomplish their goals in the world is\n\nsomething that demiurges are prone to do. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T02:43:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 23/10/2011, ?s 03:20, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe has stated that Severian can be considered an aspect of The Outsider. If Wolfe recognizes his role as demiurge in creating the Sun series, is it possible he has put himself into the story AS The Outsider?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe has said the Outsider is a spiritual god. That - substantiated by what we see of the Outsider - doesn't strike me as demiurge-like. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This recognizes Severian as an aspect of himself but also makes Father Inire (and Typhon and Tzadkiel the Angel of Judgement) as aspects of himself. \nCould this be the reason Severian is so reticent about Father Inire? Does Wolfe make him do this to hide (but also provide a clue) that Gene Wolfe is lurking in various disguises throughout this story. Afterall, creating such human-form agents to accomplish their goals in the world is something that demiurges are prone to do. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'FI is GW' sounds terrific. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319343539.34542.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T04:18:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA32E02.2090807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ".> On 10/22/2011 12:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n Here's the thing for me- We have the mystery of Dr. Talos' " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "knowledge. It is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " a mystery because it is not explained and I think we are supposed to figure\n\n it out. We have competing theories: 1. he is a keen eavesdropper and 2. He\n\n is really a version of the mysterious Father Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems to me some of it is explained straightforwardly (as I thought I posted earlier today, but I don't see the post). Famulimus says Baldanders \"hoards up past lore\" (SotL, Ch. XXXIII), as we might have expected given his medical knowledge. There's no obvious reason to keep any of it from his faithful doctor, servant, dogsbody (foxbody?), and playwright.\n\nOnly some of it, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " If this was the real world, I think #1 is the better explanation. It is \nplain\n\n and simple and thus better via Occam's principle. But this is a work of \nfantastical\n\n fiction and for me, the fantastical #2 solution to a mystery is simply more \nfun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For some of it, I just see no mystery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's a theory that is neither pedestrian nor fantastical, but based on the \nstory and what we know of its characters. Talos has the task of scraping up cash \nfor Baldanders. He writes and directs plays and is therefore incredibly \nliterate. He probably reads extremely fast, being unnatural and unusually \nintelligent. He knows his audience. He travels and listens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What sort of information does this leave out? Perhaps some military-type \ninformation, certain arcane technologies, battle tactics. But certainly all \nreligion, philosophy, history, etc.\n\nTo me, the bigger key is the Book itself. The bit about Carina does seem \ncircular in origin, since there doesn't seem to be any reason for anyone \noutside the story to know Catherine without knowing Severian is her son. Why \nwould anyone know that?\n\nWell, certain people know---certain people at the House Absolute. And these \npeople deal in rare books.\n\nDoes anyone think it unlikely that Ultan lends Talos books by the hundreds?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Talos doesn't have a Nessus address (that we know of). But he has some sources of ancient information, quite likely books.\n\nIndeed, though, the question of why Carina's narration in /E. &. G./ matches a scene in UotNS is mysterious, like other echoes between the play and future events. It may mean Dr. T. has some uncanny source of knowledge. There's plenty of time travel in the books to provide one possible explanation without the need (or possibility?) of any commitment to who the time traveler is. Another possibility is that Dr. Talos doesn't know anything; instead the woman in UotNS knows about the play, or somebody else does and sets up the scene. Another is unconscious prescience, like Severian's dream of the puppet fight. As Talos himself tells us, stories in the future can inspire those in the past. I'm not seeing other possibilities at the moment, but maybe some people will (or have).\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA41D0C.5060501@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-23T13:56:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/22/2011 10:20 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThis post is for David Stockhoff to whom I promised an answer\n\nto his question on what benefit Severian might have for keeping\n\nFather Inire in such difficult to penetrate disguises." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thanks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this question was carried on the assumption that Severian\n\nhoping to hide his and his family's incestuous nature was sufficient\n\ngrounds to keep his family members hidden, to various degrees of\n\ndifficulty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the incest extends beyond Dorcas, which was an accidental instance, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could answer the question about Father Inire in similar terms. As\n\na Greek god analog he is incestuous by nature. It is he who brings\n\nthe embarassing curse of incest to Severian's family and keeping him\n\nin disguise is sort of a reflex. Mentioning him as royal vizier is okay\n\nbut admiting he is Dorcas' husband, Cyriaca's uncle and certain others\n\nwould be too revealing in the incest department.\n\n\n\nI could also answer that he is a cacogen, a sort of being which is held\n\nin some disgust in the Commonwealth. Perhaps Severian doesn't want to\n\ndisgust his readers by admitting any closer association than necessary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hadn't noted any disgust for Inire, but it's possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those answers are okay, though not completely satifying. But a recent insight\n\nsuggested there may be more to it, if we consider another level of literary\n\ninterpretation. Together, the two levels might be a good answer.\n\n\n\nDavid, in the past we've had discussions about the literary theme of \"God is\n\nto universe as author is to story\". And we I think we agreed that a\n\nreligious scholar like Wolfe is insightful enough to consider that an author\n\nis more properly considered as a demiurge than god.\n\n\n\nActually I'd like to digress and add to that discussion for a paragraph or two.\n\nThe demiurge is the all-powerful creator of the material world and all that is\n\nin it. Where the demiurge is incomplete is that he lacks participation in the\n\nspirit. (and free will is a component of the spirit, so a demiurge cannot fully\n\ncontrol a conscious human being).\n\n\n\nSo, in literature, the author is the demiurge. He can control anything and\n\neverything in his story except for one thing. The spiritual component of a\n\nstory, which is the reader. The author can influence but cannot control how each of\n\nhis readers chooses to understand and interpret his stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So far so good. I can also imagine further punning along the lines of \nthe writer's idea's incestuously merging and intertwining throughout \nmany novels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, there is a famous anecdote that I can't fully place just now. It was in some\n\nlecture where some person of note in the lupine universe surprised Wolfe with the\n\nquestion, \"can we assume that the name of Number 5 and Maitre is Gene Wolfe?\" Caught\n\nby surprise, Wolfe blurted out \"yes!\". But this admission of metafiction and veiled\n\nautobiography is not something Wolfe is prone to admit. That may be the only example.\n\n\n\nIt isn't something new for analysts to suggest Gene WOlfe puts himself into his stories.\n\nNumber 5, Weer, Severian, Ouen and Horn (not sure about Silkhorn) are oft noted candidates.\n\n\n\nWe have discussed how Father Inire can be seen as a demiurgical figure to the Commonwealth\n\nas Tzadkiel is to his ship, as Typhon-Pas is to the Whorl and how The Outsider is to the\n\nuniverse of Briah.\n\n\n\nWolfe has stated that Severian can be considered an aspect of The Outsider. If Wolfe recognizes\n\nhis role as demiurge in creating the Sun series, is it possible he has put himself into\n\nthe story AS The Outsider? This recognizes Severian as an aspect of himself but also makes\n\nFather Inire (and Typhon and Tzadkiel the Angel of Judgement) as aspects of himself.\n\n\n\nCould this be the reason Severian is so reticent about Father Inire? Does Wolfe make him do this\n\nto hide (but also provide a clue) that Gene Wolfe is lurking in various disguises throughout this\n\nstory. Afterall, creating such human-form agents to accomplish their goals in the world is\n\nsomething that demiurges are prone to do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought I saw where you were going---that Wolfe is Inire (and perhaps \nTzadkiel in UotNS). But despite valid connections one can make between \ndemiurge and Increate, I can't see Wolfe seeing himself as the Outsider, \nfor the reason you gave: that an author is a demiurge, not a god. So I'm \nconfused there.\n\nIf the demiurge has created a box in which he keeps pets dressed up as \none character or another, it is not the demiurge who is likely to break \nin to free them---these are separate roles. (I say this while admitting \nthat the Outsider cannot actually \"be\" God because God is above all \ncreations, but since he has no face or dialog, he's as close as Wolfe \ncan reasonably get.)\n\nGoing with Inire-as-Wolfe, my response must be that it actually explains \nthe reticence and mystery about Inire all by itself, making further \nexplanations unnecessary. It does lead one to look for instances where \nInire has fiddled with things behind the scenes, which of course is what \nInire does. And while Severian himself may simply be consciously unaware \nthat Inire has these connections, as Autarch he must have some idea.\n\nGoing further: I could add a fourth \"reason\" for Severian to not mention \nthings that he must know as Autarch---which is that in his acquired \nmemories he knows so much that it would overpower any narrative. To tell \nhis story he must push those memories aside and speak as himself.\n\nStill, the Autarchs must not know everything about Severian, or else \nSeverian himself would know everything about himself. This present \nfurther problems. Either Inire knows more than the Autarchs (quite \nlikely) or Severian actually knows (rather than suspects or fears) the \nanswers to all the things we puzzle over and deliberately hides them. \nFine. But then we must believe he hides them badly.\n\nAnd round and round we go.\n\nIncidentally, part of the inspiration for the Autarchy may come from the \nfact that Byzantine emperors chose potential successors as their chief \nadvisers (though I'm not sure whether they adopted heirs as the Romans \ndid). Conversely, they also chose their chief advisers to succeed them. \nThis ensured continuity whether the throne was inherited or not.\n\nMy point is that Inire does not fit into this scheme. He's more like a \nGrand Vizier at the head of an eternal bureaucracy such as the Ottomans \nhad. Further, the Ottoman sultans frequently appointed loyal \"aliens\" \n(Jews, Christians, Europeans) as their viziers. Inire fits this model \nmore neatly." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T18:14:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA41D0C.5060501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: He knows about Carina, who either is Severian's mother" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "or is somehow symbolically linked with her - I don't see that he has" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "to know that she is Severian's mother....Regarding his knowledge in" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "general, sometimes I wonder if he has read the Book of the New Sun\n\n\n\n\n\nI'm not following this. HOw does a doctor, created and bred solely to\n\nminister to Baldanders, know of the Contessa Carina? He lives in a remote\n\nplace. ?He is not supposed to be privy to the lives of exultants nor the\n\npolitics of the House Absolute and Carina is not found in Severian's writings\n\n(except, of ?course as a contribution from Talos, himself)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Talos predicts, in a way that is uncannily accurate (though also\nstrangely skewed) the events of the last day of Urth. He places a\nprophet, a giant, a demon at the House Absolute; he tells of a man and\na woman descending from the sky; of a bell ringing; and of a woman\nwho, while being escorted along the path of air, sees a man looking in\nat the windows. All this happened.\n\nI can see two possible explanations for this. One is, as Jerry\nFriedman suggested, prescience; he thinks he is making it up, but his\nstory reflects the future, as _Frankenstein_ reflects Baldanders and\nthe stories in _Wonders of Urth and Sky_ reflect the life of\nSeverian. The other is that he has read the _Book of the New Sun_.\nWell, he says he has - the speculative bit of my proposal is that this\nis not Canog's book, which would presumably give only an brief outline\nof these events, but Severian's. All the events are detailed in _The\nUrth of the New Sun_, so if he has read it, he knows about them.\n\nOf course, this would not tell him that the womans' name is Carina.\nBut we don't know that her name _is_ Carina; he may have added this\nname because of its symbolic resonances." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA47132.1040904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-23T19:55:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<1319343539.34542.YahooMailNeo@web114703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/23/2011 12:18 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nWell, Talos doesn't have a Nessus address (that we know of). But he has some sources of ancient information, quite likely books.\n\nIndeed, though, the question of why Carina's narration in /E.&. G./ matches a scene in UotNS is mysterious, like other echoes between the play and future events. It may mean Dr. T. has some uncanny source of knowledge. There's plenty of time travel in the books to provide one possible explanation without the need (or possibility?) of any commitment to who the time traveler is. Another possibility is that Dr. Talos doesn't know anything; instead the woman in UotNS knows about the play, or somebody else does and sets up the scene. Another is unconscious prescience, like Severian's dream of the puppet fight. As Talos himself tells us, stories in the future can inspire those in the past. I'm not seeing other possibilities at the moment, but maybe some people will (or have)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm betting there were delivery vans full of books running back and \nforth all the time!\n\nSeriously, I think it's likely that we are to imagine Sev's book in \nUltan's library---there are enough hints that this library is like \nBorges' infinite library, and it had to go somewhere. If that is \npossible, then it's a very small leap to the information it contains \nbeing available. However, as you say there are other pathways." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA47505.8000900@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T20:11:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA32E02.2090807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/22/2011 3:56 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nDoes anyone think it unlikely that Ultan lends Talos books by the hundreds?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Talos could be a voracious if infrequent patron perhaps, but it would be \nbeyond impractical and inadvisable for an itinerant actor to check out \ncartloads of rare volumes." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA4C79F.9040002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T02:04:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA47505.8000900@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/23/2011 4:11 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/22/2011 3:56 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does anyone think it unlikely that Ultan lends Talos books by the \nhundreds?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Talos could be a voracious if infrequent patron perhaps" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. He and Baldanders did not always travel." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T02:41:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA4C79F.9040002@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: 'FI is GW' sounds terrific." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I can't see Wolfe seeing himself as the Outsider" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...Going with Inire-as-Wolfe, my response must be that it actually explains \nthe reticence and mystery about Inire all by itself, making further \nexplanations unnecessary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A fair and helpful suggestion for a refinement of my idea from you guys.\n\nThanks.\n\n \n\nSince Wolfe probably hadn't decided to use the name Tzadkiel and very likely\n\nhadn't conceived of The Outsider while writing the first four books of BotNS,\n\nI think it is very reasonable to narrow the focus of a meta-fictive inclusion\n\nof Gene Wolfe as author/demiurge to Father Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: 'Abraxas' does seem to be a gnostic word, but apparently it's " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "unclear whether it is a name of the Archon or of the true God, so it's\nuncertain what we should. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think it is more important to focus on how that word is used in the text first.\n\nThe Cumaean uses it to refer to someone who would seem to be her associate but\n\none who may be more wise or knowlegeable than she, at least in some areas.\n\n \n\nUotNS rather explicitly pairs Father Inire and The Cumaean. I don't see what\n\nother possible character she could be refering to other than Inire with the\n\nterm Abraxas. (Abaia maybe? he is just too distant and formless I think)\n\n \n\nOnly with the assumption she means Father Inire, does the earthly definition of \n\nAbraxas becomes useful, imho. Most Judeo-Christian interpret The Abraxas as an \n\nevil demon. Yes, some gnostic, pagan sects worshipped him as a true god, which \n\nwas also true for various other demons and fallen angels. The earthly Abraxas \n\nmight even be characterized as a demiurgical figure.\n\n \n\nFor me, this is just one of numerous clues Wolfe gives us on how we should be \n\ninterpreting the mysterious Father Inire character. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T03:24:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff:>> Does anyone think it unlikely that Ultan lends Talos " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "books by the hundreds? Talos could be a voracious if infrequent patron " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "perhaps" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly. He and Baldanders did not always travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nBorski suggests Ultan is a version of Father Inire because of the obscured\n\neyes. I find more significance in the fact that Severian sees the face of\n\nthe dead woman in the necropolis in Ultan's face.\n\n \n\nAnyway, if this were correct (and I think we can all agree the whole curator\n\nguild is associated with Father Inire, be it art, botanic gardens or books),\n\nwe wouldn't need to invent non-textual familiarity between Ultan and Dr. Talos\n\nand Cyriaca's uncle. Not if they all ARE Father Inire. ;- )\n\n \n\nIn the past I've likened BotNS as a labyrinth. And Severian keeps meeting new\n\nand old acquaintances with each corner he turns. I'm only suggesting that in a\n\nlabyrinth you are more likely to meet an old character again than in an open\n\nsystem. I think nobody doubts Wolfe has disguised characters in many of his\n\nworks, not just this one. Why be parsimonious with the idea?\n\n \n\n \n\np.s. Oh this reminds me of another unanswered question from David. \"So, Catherine\n\nis alive?\", or something like that.\n\n \n\nThat is a pretty damn difficult question. I think Dr. Talos' play suggests that \n\nCatherine is a khaibit for the Contessa Carina. I think it would be easy to \n\nguess that is a job one might run away from. (I do have a theory on why Severian\n\nsees her being escorted by soldiers on the Path of Air on the day of the Flood. \n\nBut it is pretty fantastical).\n\n \n\nAnyway, if we take the clues regarding Carina's maids rather literally, perhaps\n\nthere were three of these khaibits made. But maybe it was more. What their real \n\nnames are I don't know but there is more than one and more than two bits of \n\nevidence that khaibits take their name as variations on the name of their \n\nmistress/DNA source.\n\n \n\nAnyway, there seems to be a live Catherine maid available every year for the\n\nbeheading ceremony. Dave Tallman thinks Severian really beheads his own mother,\n\nbased on the heaviness of the \"balsa wood\" sword Severian wields. Could this be\n\nan earlier test of Severian's power?\n\n \n\nOn the other hand, I am quite sure that the dead woman dug up by Vodalus is also\n\na version of Catherine. It combination of clues, the dark hair, the pale gown,\n\nthe livid face and an overly detailed description of Allowin's necklace. Also,\n\nCatherine was unfaithful to SOMEBODY with her sexual encounter with Ouen. And\n\nwhat was dark-haired, oval faced, failed Pelerine Cyriaca's sentence for\n\nadultery? Strangulation.\n\n \n\nOther clues are the aforementioned image of her face in that of Ultan's. Also,\n\nit would seem that Vodalus and his crew are not risking their lives and wasting\n\nprecious alzabo to have their ceremony for eating just anyone. Thecla was important. \n\nBut perhaps not as important as eating the mother of the Conciliator/New Sun (which \n\nVodalus may or may not know about. But SOMEBODY in power knows about it). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T05:58:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 23, 2011, at 11:24 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nOn the other hand, I am quite sure that the dead woman dug up by Vodalus is also a version of Catherine. It combination of clues, the dark hair, the pale gown, the livid face and an overly detailed description of Allowin's necklace. Also,\n\nCatherine was unfaithful to SOMEBODY with her sexual encounter with Ouen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- Might this suggest that Ultan is Severian's grandfather on the maternal side (Catherine's father), while the boatman is his grandfather on the paternal side (Ouen's father)? Sorry if this has already been discussed.\n\nTo that end, if there is significance to knowing that Ultan is his grandfather, would it be significant to know the identity of the boatman? Or is just being a shopkeeper and lost soul without his lover enough of an identity?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T11:46:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thats an interesting theory that Catherine may be the woman dug up by\nVodalus. If she indeed inhabited the Atrium of Time as some suggest\nshe could have easily have died after her appearances as St Katherine\nand been buried in the past. Perhaps she was being led to her death\non the Path of Air? I also would love to hear your theory on this, no\nmatter how fantastical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/23/11, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff:>> Does anyone think it unlikely that Ultan lends Talos" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "books by the hundreds? Talos could be a voracious if infrequent patron" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "perhaps" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Exactly. He and Baldanders did not always travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Borski suggests Ultan is a version of Father Inire because of the obscured\n\neyes. I find more significance in the fact that Severian sees the face of\n\nthe dead woman in the necropolis in Ultan's face.\n\n\n\nAnyway, if this were correct (and I think we can all agree the whole curator\n\nguild is associated with Father Inire, be it art, botanic gardens or books),\n\nwe wouldn't need to invent non-textual familiarity between Ultan and Dr.\nTalos\n\nand Cyriaca's uncle. Not if they all ARE Father Inire. ;- )\n\n\n\nIn the past I've likened BotNS as a labyrinth. And Severian keeps meeting\nnew\n\nand old acquaintances with each corner he turns. I'm only suggesting that in\na\n\nlabyrinth you are more likely to meet an old character again than in an open\n\nsystem. I think nobody doubts Wolfe has disguised characters in many of his\n\nworks, not just this one. Why be parsimonious with the idea?\n\n\n\n\n\np.s. Oh this reminds me of another unanswered question from David. \"So,\nCatherine\n\nis alive?\", or something like that.\n\n\n\nThat is a pretty damn difficult question. I think Dr. Talos' play suggests\nthat\n\nCatherine is a khaibit for the Contessa Carina. I think it would be easy to\n\nguess that is a job one might run away from. (I do have a theory on why\nSeverian\n\nsees her being escorted by soldiers on the Path of Air on the day of the\nFlood.\n\nBut it is pretty fantastical).\n\n\n\nAnyway, if we take the clues regarding Carina's maids rather literally,\nperhaps\n\nthere were three of these khaibits made. But maybe it was more. What their\nreal\n\nnames are I don't know but there is more than one and more than two bits of\n\nevidence that khaibits take their name as variations on the name of their\n\nmistress/DNA source.\n\n\n\nAnyway, there seems to be a live Catherine maid available every year for the\n\nbeheading ceremony. Dave Tallman thinks Severian really beheads his own\nmother,\n\nbased on the heaviness of the \"balsa wood\" sword Severian wields. Could this\nbe\n\nan earlier test of Severian's power?\n\n\n\nOn the other hand, I am quite sure that the dead woman dug up by Vodalus is\nalso\n\na version of Catherine. It combination of clues, the dark hair, the pale\ngown,\n\nthe livid face and an overly detailed description of Allowin's necklace.\nAlso,\n\nCatherine was unfaithful to SOMEBODY with her sexual encounter with Ouen.\nAnd\n\nwhat was dark-haired, oval faced, failed Pelerine Cyriaca's sentence for\n\nadultery? Strangulation.\n\n\n\nOther clues are the aforementioned image of her face in that of Ultan's.\nAlso,\n\nit would seem that Vodalus and his crew are not risking their lives and\nwasting\n\nprecious alzabo to have their ceremony for eating just anyone. Thecla was\nimportant.\n\nBut perhaps not as important as eating the mother of the Conciliator/New Sun\n(which\n\nVodalus may or may not know about. But SOMEBODY in power knows about it).\n\t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T12:40:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other clues are the aforementioned image of her face in that of \nUltan's. Also, it would seem that Vodalus and his crew are not \nrisking their lives and wasting precious alzabo to have their \nceremony for eating just anyone. Thecla was important. But \nperhaps not as important as eating the mother of the \nConciliator/New Sun (which Vodalus may or may not know about. \nBut SOMEBODY in power knows about it). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They’re not so fussy. It looks like they’ll eat anyone, at a pinch, even if some of them have preferences:\n**************************************\n\"Going far this time? Going to drown yourself again?\" (This from the man at the back of our party, a mere disembodied voice in the dark.)\n\n\"By Erebus, I'm going to sink so far you won't see me until winter.\"\n\nA voice I recognized as belonging to the armiger asked, \"Have any of you seen her yet?\" The others had sounded merely boastful, but there was hunger of a kind I had never heard before behind his simple words. He might have been some lost traveler asking about his home.\n\n\"No, Waldgrave.\"\n\n(Another voice.) \"Alcmund says a good one, not old or too young.\"\n\n\"Not another tribade, I hope.\"\n\n\"I don't . . .\"\n***************************************\n\nOne might consider it as paralleling Severian’s sexual encounters with a wide spectrum of Commonwealth society, and later his absorption of the minds of previous Autarchs. The diabolical communion of the Vodalarii is still, indeed, a sort of communion. Evil is good perverted.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T13:41:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: 'Abraxas' does seem to be a gnostic word, but apparently it's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "unclear whether it is a name of ?the Archon or of the true God, so it's\nuncertain what we should." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is more important to focus on how that word is used in the text first.\n\nThe Cumaean uses it to refer to someone who would seem to be her associate but\n\none who may be more wise or knowlegeable than she, at least in some areas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Having checked the passage, it seems to me that Merryn , who is the\none who actually uses the name, is most naturally read as referring to\na divine or somehow spiritual being: 'Those who, like the Mother, have\nlearned to enter the same state while waking live surrounded by their\nown lives, even as the Abraxas perceives all of time as an eternal\ninstant' (something frequently said about God).\n\nNow, it's interesting that just a few pages earlier we get what I\nthink is the only actual use of the word 'gnostic' in the cycle, where\nSeverian says that the wall of the Witches' Tower were decorated with\ngnostic designs. I had previously taken this to mean just something\nlike 'esoteric', but perhaps we are meant to conclude that the witches\ndo preserve something like gnosticism in the first-millennium sense;\nthis would not be altogether surprising when we consider that the\nbear-handlers seem to be Mithraists. So it seems likely to me that the\nuse of the name 'Abraxas' here is meant to reveal something\nspecifically about the witches." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA57757.9070605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T14:33:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/23/2011 11:24 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\np.s. Oh this reminds me of another unanswered question from David. \"So, Catherine\n\nis alive?\", or something like that.\n\n\n\nThat is a pretty damn difficult question. I think Dr. Talos' play suggests that\n\nCatherine is a khaibit for the Contessa Carina. I think it would be easy to\n\nguess that is a job one might run away from. (I do have a theory on why Severian\n\nsees her being escorted by soldiers on the Path of Air on the day of the Flood.\n\nBut it is pretty fantastical).\n\n\n\nAnyway, if we take the clues regarding Carina's maids rather literally, perhaps\n\nthere were three of these khaibits made. But maybe it was more. What their real\n\nnames are I don't know but there is more than one and more than two bits of\n\nevidence that khaibits take their name as variations on the name of their\n\nmistress/DNA source.\n\n\n\nAnyway, there seems to be a live Catherine maid available every year for the\n\nbeheading ceremony. Dave Tallman thinks Severian really beheads his own mother,\n\nbased on the heaviness of the \"balsa wood\" sword Severian wields. Could this be\n\nan earlier test of Severian's power?\n\n\n\nOn the other hand, I am quite sure that the dead woman dug up by Vodalus is also\n\na version of Catherine. It combination of clues, the dark hair, the pale gown,\n\nthe livid face and an overly detailed description of Allowin's necklace. Also,\n\nCatherine was unfaithful to SOMEBODY with her sexual encounter with Ouen. And\n\nwhat was dark-haired, oval faced, failed Pelerine Cyriaca's sentence for\n\nadultery? Strangulation.\n\n\n\nOther clues are the aforementioned image of her face in that of Ultan's. Also,\n\nit would seem that Vodalus and his crew are not risking their lives and wasting\n\nprecious alzabo to have their ceremony for eating just anyone. Thecla was important.\n\nBut perhaps not as important as eating the mother of the Conciliator/New Sun (which\n\nVodalus may or may not know about. But SOMEBODY in power knows about it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The khaibits are clearly central to the first couple of books but \nintroduce problems as well as solutions. Cyriaca's sentence is \nsuggestive as well. But\n\n(1) Who cares whom a khaibit has sex with? Can a khaibit be adulterous? \nOr can khaibits somehow stand in for their mistresses' crimes? (And if \nCyriaca is an important someone's niece, why wouldn't she have one?)\n\n(2) Are we to associate beheading with strangulation? Or simply to note \nthat adultery is a capital crime among the exultants? For a married \nContessa to dally with a waiter could certainly be a serious crime." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA577CA.5070702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T14:35:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 8:40 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Other clues are the aforementioned image of her face in that of\nUltan's. Also, it would seem that Vodalus and his crew are not\nrisking their lives and wasting precious alzabo to have their\nceremony for eating just anyone. Thecla was important. But\nperhaps not as important as eating the mother of the\nConciliator/New Sun (which Vodalus may or may not know about.\nBut SOMEBODY in power knows about it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They’re not so fussy. It looks like they’ll eat anyone, at a pinch, \neven if some of them have preferences:\n**************************************\n\"Going far this time? Going to drown yourself again?\" (This from the \nman at the back of our party, a mere disembodied voice in the dark.)\n\"By Erebus, I'm going to sink so far you won't see me until winter.\"\nA voice I recognized as belonging to the armiger asked, \"Have any of \nyou seen her yet?\" The others had sounded merely boastful, but there \nwas hunger of a kind I had never heard before behind his simple words. \nHe might have been some lost traveler asking about his home.\n\"No, Waldgrave.\"\n(Another voice.) \"Alcmund says a good one, not old or too young.\"\n\"Not another tribade, I hope.\"\n\"I don't . . .\"\n***************************************\nOne might consider it as paralleling Severian’s sexual encounters with \na wide spectrum of Commonwealth society, and later his absorption of \nthe minds of previous Autarchs. The diabolical communion of the \nVodalarii is still, indeed, a sort of communion. Evil is good perverted.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a hunch Vodalus picks his meals very carefully. His followers may \nnot care so much." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA57F76.4010609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T15:08:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA577CA.5070702@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 15:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a hunch Vodalus picks his meals very carefully. His followers may not\ncare so much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He professes it's a quest for knowledge, so he should be going out for \nwhoever possessed some bit of knowledge. Otoh, the folk in the necropolis \nseem to stand guard for their families, which would suggest indiscriminate \npreying on the part of the outlaws." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T15:20:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA57F76.4010609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Having checked the passage, it seems to me that Merryn , who is the\none who actually uses the name, is most naturally read as referring to\na divine or somehow spiritual being: 'Those who, like the Mother, have\nlearned to enter the same state while waking live surrounded by their\nown lives, even as the Abraxas perceives all of time as an eternal\ninstant' (something frequently said about God)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes there is that Merryn quote. But my own memory was of a quote where the Cumaean \nis asked something or she wonders something and mutters, \"perhaps the Abraxas will know\" \nor something like that. I don't have my books with me and I can't find the quote online. \nApologies if I've relied too heavily on my faulty memory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, it's interesting that just a few pages earlier we get what I\nthink is the only actual use of the word 'gnostic' in the cycle, where\nSeverian says that the wall of the Witches' Tower were decorated with\ngnostic designs....it seems likely to me that the use of the name 'Abraxas' here is meant \nto reveal something specifically about the witches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree but with the stipulation that there is a connection between Father Inire and witches.\nThere is the blunt and open association Severian makes between Inire and The Cumaean. Also there\nis Hildegren who links Vodalus to the Witches. And Vodalus connects to Father Inire because\nhe (as Jungle Guide shaman) is part of Vodalus' party. And another term for a shaman is \n\"witch doctor\". Just as Wolfe believes in the reality of pagan gods, he also (stated in a\nquote) believes in the reality of witches who are acolytes of those dark powers.\n \nIn parallel to the gnostic symbols marking the Witches Tower, I think, are the teratoid (monster)\nsymbols marking Father Inire's mirror chamber. I think this mirror-monster association makes\nthe connection to Hethor extra clear. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5829B.3070809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T15:22:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA57F76.4010609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:08 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 15:35):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have a hunch Vodalus picks his meals very carefully. His followers \nmay not\ncare so much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He professes it's a quest for knowledge, so he should be going out for \nwhoever possessed some bit of knowledge. Otoh, the folk in the \nnecropolis seem to stand guard for their families, which would suggest \nindiscriminate preying on the part of the outlaws." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. And class and the potential for inside intelligence might be part \nof the criteria. But he got Thecla, possible daughter of Catherine and \nTheo. Where was her family?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T15:40:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5829B.3070809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: Might this suggest that Ultan is Severian's grandfather on the maternal \nside (Catherine's father), while the boatman is his grandfather on the paternal side \n(Ouen's father)? Sorry if this has already been discussed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To that end, if there is significance to knowing that Ultan is his grandfather, would \nit be significant to know the identity of the boatman? Or is just being a shopkeeper and \nlost soul without his lover enough of an identity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI might be more inclined to agree that Dorcas' husband is just some guy if it weren't for\nthe fact that there are two other old boatmen who also like to talk about undines. The \nold boatman's association with young teen Dorcas seems to parallel the questionable \nnature of Maxellindis' uncle to young teen Maxellindis.\n \nThat particular issue of Ultan has not been discussed much, nor recently. But yes. If\nUltan is a version of Father Inire it probably places him as both maternal and paternal\ngrandfather to Severian. Ultan is surely presented as a kindly, benign character. But\nas has been discussed with David Stockhoff, there are some things Ultan says which seem to\nassociate him with satanic ritual (not to mention his look of greedy hunger in discussing \nthe eating of the dead).\n \nThat stuff about Ultan is to be expected if he is Father Inire, who is associated with\npagan gods, fallen angels, gnostic demons, witchcraft etc. Not that these things are \ninherently \"bad\". They are just dark. The dark which comes before the light. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<693C8040AB7C4B9FAE17F4F4E43A9A6E@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T15:43:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5829B.3070809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right. And class and the potential for inside intelligence might be part \nof the criteria. But he got Thecla, possible daughter of Catherine and \nTheo. Where was her family?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right there at the dinner table.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA588DB.9040607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T15:48:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:20 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIn parallel to the gnostic symbols marking the Witches Tower, I think, are the teratoid (monster)\nsymbols marking Father Inire's mirror chamber. I think this mirror-monster association makes\nthe connection to Hethor extra clear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, except that to me the connection is mostly related to to what \nall these people do (witches, sorcerers, etc.).\n\nI think one can divide up characters' significance in only a few ways: \nwho they are (which in Wolfe goes right down to the DNA), who they know, \nwhat they know, what they want, and what they are willing to do to get \nit. (Legal status does not usually come up as a central feature; rather, \nlike a name, it can change.)\n\nHethor is a sorcerer and a sailor. It is no surprise that he has picked \nup some knowledge of the kind Inire is master of. This comparison is \nsomething Wolfe uses to impart a sense of scale and depth: the sticks \nthat children play with are like the swords knights wield, and so on. \nThe Heirodules are to the Increate as we are to the gods, etc.\n\nIn Briah, the stars and planets themselves---and travel between \nthem---are realms of gnostic knowledge and as such a key to wisdom (the \ntruth about creation and about ourselves). Outer space is akin to \nFaerie. Hethor has been to Elfland and stolen a few scraps; Inire is the \nElfking. Something like that. Inire doesn't need to fake a stutter and \nfollow Sev around to keep track of him. Rather, he is the super-Hethor. \nIn this way we receive a hint of his powers.\n\nRecall however that is it Appian who reveals the mirrors to Severian. \nInire uses him so he can hide in the background." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T15:54:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA588DB.9040607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n... at the end of an excellent post..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Recall however that is it Appian who reveals the mirrors to Severian. Inire\nuses him so he can hide in the background." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, a couple of people have taken to referring to the Old Autarch as\nAppian. Is there any actual evidence for this? I have the impression\nthat Appian is a more historical figure." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA58CF0.5040205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T16:06:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<693C8040AB7C4B9FAE17F4F4E43A9A6E@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:43 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nRight. And class and the potential for inside intelligence might be \npart\nof the criteria. But he got Thecla, possible daughter of Catherine and\nTheo. Where was her family?\nRight there at the dinner table." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha. Very good. But that would make them Vodalarii. Thea is, but the rest?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA58DC5.9030404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T16:09:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:54 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\n\n... at the end of an excellent post..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Recall however that is it Appian who reveals the mirrors to Severian. Inire\nuses him so he can hide in the background." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, a couple of people have taken to referring to the Old Autarch as\nAppian. Is there any actual evidence for this? I have the impression\nthat Appian is a more historical figure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lexicon Urthus says so, but I don't recall the revealing passage. Appian \nwas apprentice to the honey steward Paeon. He ruled for a long time, \nbeing young, according to LU." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA592B8.3030503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T16:30:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:40 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI might be more inclined to agree that Dorcas' husband is just some guy if it weren't for\nthe fact that there are two other old boatmen who also like to talk about undines. The\nold boatman's association with young teen Dorcas seems to parallel the questionable\nnature of Maxellindis' uncle to young teen Maxellindis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maxellindis's uncle says he sleeps in his boat. LU says Ca's husband \nsleeps in a rented room. So they are clearly different people. But old \nboatmen do seem to be a motif.\n\nFor a boatman to be Charon, there should be a death or a return close \nby. Hmmm..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That particular issue of Ultan has not been discussed much, nor recently. But yes. If\nUltan is a version of Father Inire it probably places him as both maternal and paternal\ngrandfather to Severian. Ultan is surely presented as a kindly, benign character. But\nas has been discussed with David Stockhoff, there are some things Ultan says which seem to\nassociate him with satanic ritual (not to mention his look of greedy hunger in discussing\nthe eating of the dead)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I want to note that since Ultan is blind, he lacks the self-restraint of \nfacial expression most people have. So his grimace of hunger for \nknowledge is suggestive but perhaps should not be taken to mean he \nactually eats dead people for their knowledge. The people whose brains \nhe wants to eat are long, long gone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That stuff about Ultan is to be expected if he is Father Inire, who is associated with\npagan gods, fallen angels, gnostic demons, witchcraft etc. Not that these things are\ninherently \"bad\". They are just dark. The dark which comes before the light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What connects Ultan to Inire here? His hunger for knowledge? Or the \nmeans he may use to get it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26A9CC5608A64A6B9F195B4DE944A3BA@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T16:40:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA58CF0.5040205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:43 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \nRight. And class and the potential for inside intelligence might be \npart\nof the criteria. But he got Thecla, possible daughter of Catherine and\nTheo. Where was her family?\nRight there at the dinner table." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aha. Very good. But that would make them Vodalarii. Thea is, but the rest?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be that those sent to the torturers are meant to stay buried where the torturers put them. \n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA59B03.50409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:06:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA58DC5.9030404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 17:09):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:54 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n... at the end of an excellent post..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Recall however that is it Appian who reveals the mirrors to Severian. Inire\nuses him so he can hide in the background." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, a couple of people have taken to referring to the Old Autarch as\nAppian. Is there any actual evidence for this? I have the impression\nthat Appian is a more historical figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lexicon Urthus says so, but I don't recall the revealing passage. Appian was\napprentice to the honey steward Paeon. He ruled for a long time, being\nyoung, according to LU." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Iirc*, it was put to rest that the Old Autarch was *not* the Appian \nmentioned in the text; however, 'Appian' has become such a traditional name \nfor him, that as a matter of List Lore I think it can prevail (the name, not \nthe identification - so we have two Appians, the one in the text and the Old \nAutarch). *Iirc*." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:09:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA58DC5.9030404@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOK, a couple of people have taken to referring to the Old Autarch as\nAppian. Is there any actual evidence for this? I have the impression\nthat Appian is a more historical figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lexicon Urthus says so, but I don't recall the revealing passage. Appian was\napprentice to the honey steward Paeon. He ruled for a long time, being\nyoung, according to LU." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With all due respect to Michael Andre-Driussi, I do not take LU as an\nauthority, just a useful reference. If someone has their copy handy,\ncan you cite the passage in question?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA59C66.8040408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:12:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<26A9CC5608A64A6B9F195B4DE944A3BA@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (24-10-2011 17:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff \n > On 10/24/2011 11:43 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n > > *From:* David Stockhoff \n > > > Right. And class and the potential for inside intelligence might be\n > > part\n > > > of the criteria. But he got Thecla, possible daughter of Catherine and\n > > > Theo. Where was her family?\n > > Right there at the dinner table.\n\n > Aha. Very good. But that would make them Vodalarii. Thea is, but the rest?\nIt may be that those sent to the torturers are meant to stay buried where\nthe torturers put them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Istr there was mention of how the bodies were handled. Weren't they given \nover to the family? (I that that isn't it, but...)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA59C9C.9090406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:13:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "OK, a couple of people have taken to referring to the Old Autarch as\nAppian. Is there any actual evidence for this? I have the impression\nthat Appian is a more historical figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lexicon Urthus says so, but I don't recall the revealing passage. Appian was\napprentice to the honey steward Paeon. He ruled for a long time, being\nyoung, according to LU." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With all due respect to Michael Andre-Driussi, I do not take LU as an\nauthority, just a useful reference. If someone has their copy handy,\ncan you cite the passage in question?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to be from the story The Cat. Not BotNS." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:16:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA59C9C.9090406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: He professes it's a quest for knowledge, so he \nshould be going out for whoever possessed some bit of knowledge. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI believe it is the Old Autarch who tells Severian that Thecla was chosen\nfor her loyalty to Vodalus as a means to bind his followers more tightly\nto him. I tend to think Vodalus as an expendable pawn of higher powers\n(easily replaced by Agia with the help of...Hethor) who doesn't really know \nthat the true importance of his dinner choices (and all else that he does) \nrelates to Severian as a nascent New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Otoh, the folk in the necropolis seem to stand guard for their families, which \nwould suggest indiscriminate preying on the part of the outlaws." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps. But perhaps there many are other ghouls lurking in Nessus other than \nVodalus. We are only concerned with the choices of Vodalus here and he seems\nvery selective to me. \n \nI think the pikemen who confront Vodalus fulfill Wolfe's desire to portray Vodalus \nas the opposite of these simple, modest folk as well as create a nice torch and \npitchfork mob scene, another nod to Mary Shelley and Frankenstein." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Lexicon Urthus says so, but I don't recall the revealing passage. \nAppian was apprentice to the honey steward Paeon. He ruled for a long time, \nbeing young, according to LU." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think the name Appian comes not from BotNS but from the short story The Cat.\nBorski perhaps rightly noted that Appian could be an appropriate name for a \nguy who is/was a beekeeper (though Apian would be the more proper spelling for \nthat).\n\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA59E9D.5070000@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA41D0C.5060501@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/23/2011 9:56 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nGoing further: I could add a fourth \"reason\" for Severian to not \nmention things that he must know as Autarch---which is that in his \nacquired memories he knows so much that it would overpower any \nnarrative. To tell his story he must push those memories aside and \nspeak as himself.\n\nStill, the Autarchs must not know everything about Severian, or else \nSeverian himself would know everything about himself. This present \nfurther problems. Either Inire knows more than the Autarchs (quite \nlikely) or Severian actually knows (rather than suspects or fears) the \nanswers to all the things we puzzle over and deliberately hides them. \nFine. But then we must believe he hides them badly. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Looking through the text, I just realized that one of the first things \nSev does upon gaining the old Autarch's memories is to go question Ouen \nwith very specific questions.\n\nSo, just to answer myself (I'm sure everyone else is way ahead of me \nhere), either the Autarch DID know the identity of Severian's mother and \npassed it to Sev, indicating that the Autarch was in on the plot (or \nknew its characters) ...\n\n... or Sev just did a lot of thinking while he was alone in the mountains." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA59F9F.5030604@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:25:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI believe it is the Old Autarch who tells Severian that Thecla was chosen\nfor her loyalty to Vodalus as a means to bind his followers more tightly\nto him. I tend to think Vodalus as an expendable pawn of higher powers\n(easily replaced by Agia with the help of...Hethor) who doesn't really know\nthat the true importance of his dinner choices (and all else that he does)\nrelates to Severian as a nascent New Sun" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's a thought.\n\nOld Autarch + Inire vs Vodalus + Inire\n\nNew Autarch + Inire vs Agia and Hethor\n\n(1) The Vodalarii no longer need Inire's personal attention now that Sev \nis here\n\n(2) Hethor is a lesser Inire, as Agia is a lesser Vodalus." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5A39E.6020204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:42:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA59F9F.5030604@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 18:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe it is the Old Autarch who tells Severian that Thecla was chosen\nfor her loyalty to Vodalus as a means to bind his followers more tightly\nto him. I tend to think Vodalus as an expendable pawn of higher powers\n(easily replaced by Agia with the help of...Hethor) who doesn't really know\nthat the true importance of his dinner choices (and all else that he does)\nrelates to Severian as a nascent New Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's a thought.\n\nOld Autarch + Inire vs Vodalus + Inire\n\nNew Autarch + Inire vs Agia and Hethor\n\n(1) The Vodalarii no longer need Inire's personal attention now that Sev is\nhere\n\n(2) Hethor is a lesser Inire, as Agia is a lesser Vodalus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why isn't Hethor the same individual as Inire?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5A7B3.2070604@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:00:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "OK, a couple of people have taken to referring to the Old Autarch as\nAppian. Is there any actual evidence for this? I have the impression\nthat Appian is a more historical figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lexicon Urthus says so, but I don't recall the revealing passage. Appian was\napprentice to the honey steward Paeon. He ruled for a long time, being\nyoung, according to LU." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With all due respect to Michael Andre-Driussi, I do not take LU as an\nauthority, just a useful reference. If someone has their copy handy,\ncan you cite the passage in question?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's one:\n\n“I was a servant once . . . That is why they hate me” (IV, chap. 25, 176)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5A83E.4060507@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:02:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5A39E.6020204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:42 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 18:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I believe it is the Old Autarch who tells Severian that Thecla was \nchosen\nfor her loyalty to Vodalus as a means to bind his followers more \ntightly\nto him. I tend to think Vodalus as an expendable pawn of higher powers\n(easily replaced by Agia with the help of...Hethor) who doesn't \nreally know\nthat the true importance of his dinner choices (and all else that he \ndoes)\nrelates to Severian as a nascent New Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's a thought.\n\nOld Autarch + Inire vs Vodalus + Inire\n\nNew Autarch + Inire vs Agia and Hethor\n\n(1) The Vodalarii no longer need Inire's personal attention now that \nSev is\nhere\n\n(2) Hethor is a lesser Inire, as Agia is a lesser Vodalus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why isn't Hethor the same individual as Inire?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None of this is meant to suggest that he is not.\n\nHowever, I don't think he is and have made several comments to that \neffect over a few days.\n\nNever mind that it would make Inire either very busy or very numerous. \nor both." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5A887.3080804@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:03:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA59F9F.5030604@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like more this view - it makes sense if you remember how often\nHethor is referred to as an \"old sailor\", how he is afraid to be recognized\nby Jonas. There are small details that speak a lot about his past\non the spaceships (his \"khaibit\" or whatever that was killed\nby other crew). He has an access to high technology (his \"mirrors\")\nbut on lesser level than Inire.\n\nIt makes no sense to build his human biography by such bits and scrapes\nif in fact he would be Inire.\n\nI think that Wolfe likes a lot to make the different personages to \nmirror each\nother in some imperfect way. There is a sort of hierarchy (more imperfect -\nless imperfect). It fits very well the (Christian) concept that Evil is \na distorted Good.\nFor example, the boatman loves dead Dorcas. Hethor has no love,\nand is more deeply mired in evil. Still, he is strongly attracted by Agia,\nand maybe not completely lost. Anyway, much worse cases are possible.\n\nThea and Thecla are similar in some respects and different in others.\n\nCould not be the \"way of air\" just using flyers?\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/24/2011 1:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe it is the Old Autarch who tells Severian that Thecla was \nchosen\nfor her loyalty to Vodalus as a means to bind his followers more tightly\nto him. I tend to think Vodalus as an expendable pawn of higher powers\n(easily replaced by Agia with the help of...Hethor) who doesn't \nreally know\nthat the true importance of his dinner choices (and all else that he \ndoes)\nrelates to Severian as a nascent New Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's a thought.\n\nOld Autarch + Inire vs Vodalus + Inire\n\nNew Autarch + Inire vs Agia and Hethor\n\n(1) The Vodalarii no longer need Inire's personal attention now that \nSev is here\n\n(2) Hethor is a lesser Inire, as Agia is a lesser Vodalus.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5AADA.300@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:13:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5A39E.6020204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 18:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I believe it is the Old Autarch who tells Severian that Thecla was \nchosen\nfor her loyalty to Vodalus as a means to bind his followers more \ntightly\nto him. I tend to think Vodalus as an expendable pawn of higher powers\n(easily replaced by Agia with the help of...Hethor) who doesn't \nreally know\nthat the true importance of his dinner choices (and all else that he \ndoes)\nrelates to Severian as a nascent New Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's a thought.\n\nOld Autarch + Inire vs Vodalus + Inire\n\nNew Autarch + Inire vs Agia and Hethor\n\n(1) The Vodalarii no longer need Inire's personal attention now that \nSev is\nhere\n\n(2) Hethor is a lesser Inire, as Agia is a lesser Vodalus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why isn't Hethor the same individual as Inire?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5AD6F.5070601@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:24:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5A887.3080804@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 2:03 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nI think that Wolfe likes a lot to make the different personages to \nmirror each\nother in some imperfect way. There is a sort of hierarchy (more \nimperfect -\nless imperfect). It fits very well the (Christian) concept that Evil \nis a distorted Good.\nFor example, the boatman loves dead Dorcas. Hethor has no love,\nand is more deeply mired in evil. Still, he is strongly attracted by \nAgia,\nand maybe not completely lost. Anyway, much worse cases are possible.\n\nThea and Thecla are similar in some respects and different in others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely. This technique was use by none other than Shakespeare. Pick \nup any play, pick a character, and start looking for a counterpart. \nHe/she will be there somewhere, even if not entirely an equal. Every \nPrince has a bastard brother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could not be the \"way of air\" just using flyers? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian does ride one to/from Typhon's Citadel, making such a Path more \nthan figurative." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5ADCD.8030500@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:26:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5AADA.300@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote (24-10-2011 19:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 18:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I believe it is the Old Autarch who tells Severian that Thecla was chosen\nfor her loyalty to Vodalus as a means to bind his followers more tightly\nto him. I tend to think Vodalus as an expendable pawn of higher powers\n(easily replaced by Agia with the help of...Hethor) who doesn't really know\nthat the true importance of his dinner choices (and all else that he does)\nrelates to Severian as a nascent New Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Here's a thought.\n\nOld Autarch + Inire vs Vodalus + Inire\n\nNew Autarch + Inire vs Agia and Hethor\n\n(1) The Vodalarii no longer need Inire's personal attention now that Sev is\nhere\n\n(2) Hethor is a lesser Inire, as Agia is a lesser Vodalus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why isn't Hethor the same individual as Inire?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he is the same, why waste all these efforts making his biography\nas a \"sailor\" (on spaceships)? Invent all his small hates, sadism etc?\nMake him very human in this? Would Wolfe waste his time as an author?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Notice that's precisely what's missing from FI's biography.\n\nHow come, waste? I didn't ask whether H's curriculum was fictive. Why can't \nit be FI's backstory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, no human emotions are attributed to any of the explicitly\nalien personages in BoTNS. Would not making this in case of Hethor break\nthe rule (IF he is Inire, who is an alien)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. And do we know for certain FI is an alien?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is an example of\nwhat I call conceptual inconsistency of many theories I see at this list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is? Inconsistemt with what, if it's an isolated datum? What theory?\n\nWhat with people looking for FI in various places, I merely wondered why not \nHethor." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5ADEB.5020905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:26:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5AADA.300@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 2:13 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nBy the way, no human emotions are attributed to any of the explicitly\nalien personages in BoTNS. Would not making this in case of Hethor break\nthe rule (IF he is Inire, who is an alien). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent point. I believe we can all agree on these facts." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5AFE4.3000207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:35:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5ADEB.5020905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 19:26):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 2:13 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, no human emotions are attributed to any of the explicitly\nalien personages in BoTNS. Would not making this in case of Hethor break\nthe rule (IF he is Inire, who is an alien)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Excellent point. I believe we can all agree on these facts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if Hethor having human emotions rules out his being FI, then everyone \nelse has been ruled out of being FI as well, isn't it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5B2A2.9040403@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:46:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5ADCD.8030500@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is mentioned several times in BoTNS that FI is an alien. Of \ncourse you need not trust\nthere \"rumours\" inside the book.\n\nEach time we meet Hethor his character is immediately recognizable.\nAll that is told about the behaviour and manners of FI (and we may \ninclude \"The Cat\")\nis quite different. How the idea that they are the same helps the story?\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nSergei SOLOVIEV wrote (24-10-2011 19:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 18:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I believe it is the Old Autarch who tells Severian that Thecla was \nchosen\nfor her loyalty to Vodalus as a means to bind his followers more \ntightly\nto him. I tend to think Vodalus as an expendable pawn of higher \npowers\n(easily replaced by Agia with the help of...Hethor) who doesn't \nreally know\nthat the true importance of his dinner choices (and all else that \nhe does)\nrelates to Severian as a nascent New Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Here's a thought.\n\nOld Autarch + Inire vs Vodalus + Inire\n\nNew Autarch + Inire vs Agia and Hethor\n\n(1) The Vodalarii no longer need Inire's personal attention now \nthat Sev is\nhere\n\n(2) Hethor is a lesser Inire, as Agia is a lesser Vodalus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why isn't Hethor the same individual as Inire?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If he is the same, why waste all these efforts making his biography\nas a \"sailor\" (on spaceships)? Invent all his small hates, sadism etc?\nMake him very human in this? Would Wolfe waste his time as an author?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Notice that's precisely what's missing from FI's biography.\n\nHow come, waste? I didn't ask whether H's curriculum was fictive. Why \ncan't it be FI's backstory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, no human emotions are attributed to any of the explicitly\nalien personages in BoTNS. Would not making this in case of Hethor break\nthe rule (IF he is Inire, who is an alien)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe. And do we know for certain FI is an alien?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is an example of\nwhat I call conceptual inconsistency of many theories I see at this \nlist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is? Inconsistemt with what, if it's an isolated datum? What theory?\n\nWhat with people looking for FI in various places, I merely wondered \nwhy not Hethor.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5B2DB.5080603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:47:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5AFE4.3000207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 2:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 19:26):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/24/2011 2:13 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By the way, no human emotions are attributed to any of the explicitly\nalien personages in BoTNS. Would not making this in case of Hethor \nbreak\nthe rule (IF he is Inire, who is an alien)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Excellent point. I believe we can all agree on these facts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if Hethor having human emotions rules out his being FI, then \neveryone else has been ruled out of being FI as well, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure of the whole list of suspects, but I agree that that \nprobably follows. Cas's husband, Fechin, Hethor." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5B31B.9040707@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:48:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5AFE4.3000207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? We know nothing about the emotions of the shaman, for example.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 19:26):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/24/2011 2:13 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By the way, no human emotions are attributed to any of the explicitly\nalien personages in BoTNS. Would not making this in case of Hethor \nbreak\nthe rule (IF he is Inire, who is an alien)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Excellent point. I believe we can all agree on these facts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if Hethor having human emotions rules out his being FI, then \neveryone else has been ruled out of being FI as well, isn't it?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:56:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5B31B.9040707@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: Could not be the \"way of air\" just using flyers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, the Path of Air (Road of Air in Dr. Talos' play) is a specific area\nof the House Absolute. It is described as a....the architectural term \nescapes me now...a sort of breezeway bordered by archways. Severian\nviews the woman who may be his mother from one of the archways both\nin the play and in his own story at the end of UotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like more this view - it makes sense if you remember how often\nHethor is referred to as an \"old sailor\", how he is afraid to be recognized\nby Jonas. There are small details that speak a lot about his past\non the spaceships (his \"khaibit\" or whatever that was killed\nby other crew). He has an access to high technology (his \"mirrors\")\nbut on lesser level than Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, all of Hethor's stories (even Severian's dreams of him) are surely \nimportant (wolfe isn't just throwing surreal meaningless fluff at us, \nis he? Severian sees people/beings who resemble both Jonas and Hethor\non Tzadkiel's ship. Why is Hethor's mirror mastery less than Father Inire's?\nHethor produces some pretty impressive monsters. All we see Inire do is\nproduce a silver fish. Jonas uses the mirrors to get back..where? Where\nelse do the clues point to but Tzadkiel's ship?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It makes no sense to build his human biography by such bits and scrapes\nif in fact he would be Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nActually it makes a lot of sense. Because we completely lack any biography\nfor Father Inire. This fills in that gap. Is Hethor really so inferior to\nFather Inire?\n \nInire has been vizier and the power behind the throne of the Commonwealth for \na thousand years. But Hethor's stories suggest he was a sailor, a cook, the \nbosun, First Mate on Tzadkiel's ship. Then he participated in a mutiny, \nlost his poppet, his paracoita sex doll, and was banished from the Ship. \n(to Urth I think, to become Father Inire).I'm not sure second-in-command to \nTzadkiel is a lesser post than vizier to the Commonwealth. Perhaps the opposite.\n\nBoth Hethor and Inire seem to share a fascination for young women, however.\nA fascination shared by Biblical demons. And of course Hethor's relationship to \nTzadkiel mirrors that of Lucifer to God. And, as I've suggested previously, there \nare clues that identify Father Inire as a fallen angel/hierodule. Who was it who\nsaid he'd rather reign in hell than serve in heaven?\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5B55E.1070102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:58:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5B2A2.9040403@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote (24-10-2011 19:46):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is mentioned several times in BoTNS that FI is an alien. Of\ncourse you need not trust there \"rumours\" inside the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I recall one such explicit mention of it (something about his longevity \nbeing abnormal compared to 'his kind')." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Each time we meet Hethor his character is immediately recognizable.\nAll that is told about the behaviour and manners of FI (and we may include\n\"The Cat\")\nis quite different. How the idea that they are the same helps the story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does it help it any less than any of the other identifications?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote (24-10-2011 19:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 18:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 10/24/2011 1:16 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I believe it is the Old Autarch who tells Severian that Thecla was chosen\nfor her loyalty to Vodalus as a means to bind his followers more tightly\nto him. I tend to think Vodalus as an expendable pawn of higher powers\n(easily replaced by Agia with the help of...Hethor) who doesn't really\nknow\nthat the true importance of his dinner choices (and all else that he\ndoes)\nrelates to Severian as a nascent New Sun" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Here's a thought.\n\nOld Autarch + Inire vs Vodalus + Inire\n\nNew Autarch + Inire vs Agia and Hethor\n\n(1) The Vodalarii no longer need Inire's personal attention now that\nSev is\nhere\n\n(2) Hethor is a lesser Inire, as Agia is a lesser Vodalus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why isn't Hethor the same individual as Inire?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If he is the same, why waste all these efforts making his biography\nas a \"sailor\" (on spaceships)? Invent all his small hates, sadism etc?\nMake him very human in this? Would Wolfe waste his time as an author?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Notice that's precisely what's missing from FI's biography.\n\nHow come, waste? I didn't ask whether H's curriculum was fictive. Why\ncan't it be FI's backstory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By the way, no human emotions are attributed to any of the explicitly\nalien personages in BoTNS. Would not making this in case of Hethor break\nthe rule (IF he is Inire, who is an alien)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe. And do we know for certain FI is an alien?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This is an example of\nwhat I call conceptual inconsistency of many theories I see at this list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is? Inconsistemt with what, if it's an isolated datum? What theory?\n\nWhat with people looking for FI in various places, I merely wondered why\nnot Hethor.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1AB9BFBC10DD476ABA5CC650B17A6898@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T18:59:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5ADCD.8030500@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote (24-10-2011 19:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, no human emotions are attributed to any of the explicitly\nalien personages in BoTNS. Would not making this in case of Hethor break\nthe rule (IF he is Inire, who is an alien)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire does have some characteristic habits and behaviours, though — he’s not utterly inhuman in the emotional sense. And Odilo in “The Cat” certainly believes Inire has emotions that he (Odilo) understands" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe. And do we know for certain FI is an alien?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I remember rightly, Severian refers to him living much longer than “others of his short lived kind”, suggesting that Severian considers him to be an anomalously long-lived Hierodule. He also says he “has made his home here” meaning Urth. Maybe he’s a full Hiero, or at any rate something more than the average Hierodule?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T19:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<1AB9BFBC10DD476ABA5CC650B17A6898@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: I think it is mentioned several times in BoTNS that FI is an \nalien. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh, that actually makes me kind of sad. If robots (not just Jonas but also Sidero)\ncan have human emotions, why can't aliens? Especially, as some have suggested,\nthese aliens are evolved forms of humans who went out into space many millennia\nago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course you need not trust there \"rumours\" inside the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nCan't you? Remember these are not really \"rumours\" just as the dreams in Wolfe's\nbooks are not really dreams. They are consciously created story elements with a \npurpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Each time we meet Hethor his character is immediately recognizable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think it is important to remember that in all the appearances of Hethor \n(save one) he is fawning and sycophantic toward Severian, wishing to serve him\nand calling him Master. He seems especially adoring of Severian's torturer skills.\n(the only exception is toward the end of CotA in his final appearance where he\nsimply appears clutching Agia's breasts). I think there is a lot more to this \nHethor character than you are giving him credit for.\n \nPerhaps we should remember that Tzadkiel claims that he was, in a previous creation,\nan acolyte of Severian's. Doesn't that suggest that we should be able to spot\nTzadkiel as a worshipper of Severian earlier in the story? Or later if he is an\nacolyte of Severian as Conciliator. Actually, I think he can be found in both places.\n \nWas it Ryan who asked, \"how deep does this rabbit hole really go?\"\n \n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T19:26:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: If I remember rightly, Severian refers to him living much \nlonger than “others of his short lived kind”, suggesting that Severian \nconsiders him to be an anomalously long-lived Hierodule. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, he seems to have sacrificed superhuman youth, beauty and height for \nlong life. Likewise for The Cumaean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He also says he “has made his home here” meaning Urth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. In contrast to the other, nice-looking hierodules who make appearances\non Urth but would rather hover their ship over Baldanders' castle rather than \nfind Urthly lodgings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe he’s a full Hiero, or at any rate something more than the average Hierodule?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSomething less, I think. But when you've fallen from heaven, what else are you \ngoing to do but hang out on earth and use what power you've got to influence \nthings to be the way you prefer them to be. Plenty of cuties on earth too-\nEuropa, Semele, Pandora, Lilith, Dorcas, Agia.. Heh, I think there was a movie called \n\"Earth Women are Easy\". \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5BD0B.7000907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T19:31:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 2:56 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nActually it makes a lot of sense. Because we completely lack any biography\nfor Father Inire. This fills in that gap. Is Hethor really so inferior to\nFather Inire?\n\nInire has been vizier and the power behind the throne of the Commonwealth for\na thousand years. But Hethor's stories suggest he was a sailor, a cook, the\nbosun, First Mate on Tzadkiel's ship. Then he participated in a mutiny,\nlost his poppet, his paracoita sex doll, and was banished from the Ship.\n(to Urth I think, to become Father Inire).I'm not sure second-in-command to\nTzadkiel is a lesser post than vizier to the Commonwealth. Perhaps the opposite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By that very resume, yes, Hethor seems fairly ineffective to me, \ncompared with Inire. Hethor is the very type of a sailor who'll take any \njob.\n\nHowever, you have a point about being First Mate on Tzadkiel's ship, if \nthat's the same ship that banished him. That would make him a kind of \nLucifer." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5BD78.4090005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T19:33:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 3:11 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nPerhaps we should remember that Tzadkiel claims that he was, in a previous creation,\nan acolyte of Severian's. Doesn't that suggest that we should be able to spot\nTzadkiel as a worshipper of Severian earlier in the story? Or later if he is an\nacolyte of Severian as Conciliator. Actually, I think he can be found in both places." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If anything, that suggests to me that Tzadkiel used to be Hethor." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T19:43:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/10/24, ?s 19:56, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It makes no sense to build his human biography by such bits and \nscrapes\nif in fact he would be Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually it makes a lot of sense. Because we completely lack any \nbiography\nfor Father Inire. This fills in that gap." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Both Hethor and Inire seem to share a fascination for young women, \nhowever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not only that - for some reason, Hethor and FI strike me as creepy in \na sexual way more than any other characters, and this in a book filled \nwith sexual creepiness." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5C10E.9010905@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T19:48:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 3:43 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nActually it makes a lot of sense. Because we completely lack any \nbiography for Father Inire. This fills in that gap. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought Inire's resume was quite different and went back 1000 years. \nSo does Hethor's, I guess, with time dilation, but has he been adviser \nto Autarchs as well?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T20:08:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5BD0B.7000907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, you have a point about being First Mate on Tzadkiel's ship, if \nthat's the same ship that banished him. That would make him a kind of \nLucifer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as I remember, the only ship Hethor mentions serving on was called the Quasar.\nIt seems that, like Jonas, he came from Urth, and relatively near our own time. Agia recalls:\n\n****************************\n\"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships\n that sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't costumes \nor forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain for centuries \nin the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his ships — all those ships\n ? became lost in the blackness between the suns, where the years do not turn.\nLost so that even Time cannot find them.\n[..]\nHis name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a much older one, that \nhardly anyone has heard of now.\"\n****************************\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T20:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- By that very resume, yes, Hethor seems fairly ineffective to me, \ncompared with Inire. Hethor is the very type of a sailor who'll take any \njob. However, you have a point about being First Mate on Tzadkiel's ship, if \nthat's the same ship that banished him. That would make him a kind of \nLucifer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI take Hethor's rising status of ship's crew jobs as a sign of his ambition. surely\nan attribute also found in Lucifer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps we should remember that Tzadkiel claims that he was, in a previous creation,\nan acolyte of Severian's. Doesn't that suggest that we should be able to spot\nTzadkiel as a worshipper of Severian earlier in the story? Or later if he is an\nacolyte of Severian as Conciliator. Actually, I think he can be found in both places." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David: If anything, that suggests to me that Tzadkiel used to be Hethor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell yes. that's what I meant. But \"used to be\" invokes a time sequence and cause and effect \nwhich may not be applicable to beings such as these. But yes, perhaps Hethor/Inire are linked \nto Tzadkiel as as Lucifer is an aspect of his creator, God. \n \nGoing this far feels pretty freaky, even for me. But it may tie into Wolfe's philosophy \nthat good and evil or dark and light or pagan and Christian or whatever dichotomy you \nprefer, both sides are the arms of God and serve His will with every action (willingly or not)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Both Hethor and Inire seem to share a fascination for young women, \nhowever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Not only that - for some reason, Hethor and FI strike me as creepy in \na sexual way more than any other characters, and this in a book filled with sexual creepiness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. For me also. Supporting this theme is the liklihood (in my estimation) that Father Inire's\nname is derived from Inuus, the epithet of Faunus which reflects his sexual nature.\n \nOf course Faunus is stereotypically known for chasing and ravishing young nymphs. But the Inuus\nepithet reflects a propensity for intercourse with animals. I'm not sure if the mating of a\ndemi-god and human (or alien and human) might qualify as a form of beastiality. But maybe\nWolfe thought of this. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T20:19:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn: As far as I remember, the only ship Hethor mentions serving on was \ncalled the Quasar. \n \nYes, as I mentioned in a recent post, it was a fairly common 70's- 80's SF trope\nfor the passageway between universes to be a black hole on one side and a quasar\n(white fountain) on the other. An appropriate name name for Tzadkiel's ship, no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems that, like Jonas, he came from Urth, and relatively near our own time. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf I remember correctly, Jonas says he got his knowledge of Earth (Lewis Carroll\nbooks, Theseus myths) from reading books on his ship. (a ship where \"our own time\"\ndoesn't have a lot of meaning)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agia: \"His name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a much older one, that \nhardly anyone has heard of now.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\"Pleased to meet you. Hope you guessed my name\"\n \nSympathy For The Devil- Rolling Stones \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5C9E6.2030705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-24T20:26:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 4:08 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n*> *However, you have a point about being First Mate on Tzadkiel's \nship, if\n*> *\nthat's the same ship that banished him. That would make him a kind of\n*> *\nLucifer.\nAs far as I remember, the only ship Hethor mentions serving on was \ncalled the Quasar.\nIt seems that, like Jonas, he came from Urth, and relatively near our \nown time. Agia recalls:\n****************************\n\"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships\nthat sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't costumes\nor forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain for centuries\nin the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his ships — all \nthose ships\n? became lost in the blackness between the suns, where the years do \nnot turn.\nLost so that even Time cannot find them.\n[..]\nHis name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a much older \none, that\nhardly anyone has heard of now.\"\n****************************" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't think he held that post for Tzadkiel. However, I wish we knew \nhis old name.\n\nGene, I bet.\n\nI wonder why all his ships were lost. How did he escape their fate?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T20:36:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nBut yes, perhaps Hethor/Inire are linked\nto Tzadkiel as as Lucifer is an aspect of his creator, God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No.\n\nNo, no, no, no, nonononononoNO." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<99F94EE3EBA44714906EA6CA4BFD25AD@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T20:54:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As far as I remember, the only ship Hethor mentions serving on was \ncalled the Quasar. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, as I mentioned in a recent post, it was a fairly common 70's- 80's SF trope\nfor the passageway between universes to be a black hole on one side and a quasar\n(white fountain) on the other. An appropriate name name for Tzadkiel's ship, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tzadkiel’s ship is, IIRC, called “The Ship” or perhaps Tzadkiel. But anyway it’s not all that appropriate, really. Tzadkiel’s ship does not appear as a white fountain when it travels between universes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems that, like Jonas, he came from Urth, and relatively near our own time. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I remember correctly, Jonas says he got his knowledge of Earth (Lewis Carroll\nbooks, Theseus myths) from reading books on his ship. (a ship where \"our own time\"\ndoesn't have a lot of meaning)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he came from much closer to our time. He recognises names from that era in the Antechamber. And we learn that Hethor had a similarly old-fashioned name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Agia: \"His name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a much older one, that \nhardly anyone has heard of now.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Pleased to meet you. Hope you guessed my name\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hethor isn’t much of a Lucifer.\n\nAnd don’t forget the clothes he sold in Agia’s shop. They weren’t Hiero clothes — they were ancient Urth clothes, but preserved by relativistic time dilation. Hethor’s ship, like that of Jonas, like all or most of those ancient ships, got lost in time and wound up in the distant future of Urth.\n\nNow I don’t rule out Hethor serving on Tzadkiel’s ship at some point, and he certainly sailed on many-masted ships with mirror sails. But we don’t have any information about his career, really, except that he retired sans pension, sans paracoita.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5D42F.40609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T21:10:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5C10E.9010905@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (24-10-2011 20:48):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 3:43 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually it makes a lot of sense. Because we completely lack any\nbiography for Father Inire. This fills in that gap." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't write that, Lee did, though I had said something to the same effect\nin response to Sergei." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought Inire's resume was quite different and went back 1000 years.\nSo does Hethor's, I guess, with time dilation, but has he been adviser to\n Autarchs as well?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He may have been on the ships before he became advisor. After all,\nadvisors aren't supposed to start out as advisors. But Ceryx is also a good \ncandidate for proto-Inire. But iirc Ceryx is old.\n\nThematically, I think there is no need to have both a Hethor and an Inire. \nThat of course doesn't mean there is a need to have a single character." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5D490.6010901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T21:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<99F94EE3EBA44714906EA6CA4BFD25AD@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote (24-10-2011 21:54):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now I don’t rule out Hethor serving on Tzadkiel’s ship at some point, and he\ncertainly sailed on many-masted ships with mirror sails. But we don’t have\nany information about his career, really, except that he retired sans\npension, sans paracoita." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And was never the same afterwards!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T21:57:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5D490.6010901@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marquez wrote:\n\n*Iirc*, it was put to rest that the Old Autarch was *not* the Appian\nmentioned in the text; however, 'Appian' has become such a traditional name\nfor him, that as a matter of List Lore I think it can prevail (the name, not\nthe identification - so we have two Appians, the one in the text and the Old\nAutarch). *Iirc*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can the custom of calling the sea-monsters 'Megatherians' be\nsanctified in the same way?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5E12D.9000904@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T22:05:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (24-10-2011 22:57):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marquez wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*Iirc*, it was put to rest that the Old Autarch was *not* the Appian\nmentioned in the text; however, 'Appian' has become such a traditional name\nfor him, that as a matter of List Lore I think it can prevail (the name, not\nthe identification - so we have two Appians, the one in the text and the Old\nAutarch). *Iirc*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can the custom of calling the sea-monsters 'Megatherians' be\nsanctified in the same way?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For it to be the same way, it would have to have been settled that the 17 \nGreat Megatherians were not the sea-monsters." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T22:08:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, October 24, 2011 16:57, Andrew Mason wrote:\nAntonio Pedro Marquez wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*Iirc*, it was put to rest that the Old Autarch was *not* the Appian\nmentioned in the text; however, 'Appian' has become such a traditional\nname\nfor him, that as a matter of List Lore I think it can prevail (the name,\nnot\nthe identification - so we have two Appians, the one in the text and the\nOld\nAutarch). *Iirc*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When was the old Autarch de-Appianed? I missed that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can the custom of calling the sea-monsters 'Megatherians' be\nsanctified in the same way?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, since they are megatherians, though perhaps not the same people as\ndepicted in _Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T02:43:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can the custom of calling the sea-monsters 'Megatherians' be\nsanctified in the same way?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Sure, since they are megatherians, though perhaps not the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "same people as depicted in _Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWell, yes, megatherian means \"great beast\" and Abaia is sometimes referred\n\nto as Great Beast Abaia. It seems like one of the easier puzzles to solve.\n\n \n\nI don't understand why the book can't be about the sea monsters though. Don't\n\nthey have lives?\n\n \n\nJeff if you are implying that our myths and legends of ancient gods and monsters\n\nwere probably inspired by various real kings and mean guys, I agree. However I\n\nthink Wolfe, while also sort of agreeing, makes his fiction a little more blurred\n\non the lines of myth and reality.\n\n \n\nI REALLY think Wolfe uses an animalistic nature to mark the demonic from the angelic\n\n(as the Bible also does). We have the great beasts in the ocean, we have Inire and\n\nhis monkey nature and The Cumaean and her snakey nature. This is in contrast to \n\nBarbatus and Famulimus who wear horrible animal masks but only to disguise their\n\nsuperhuman beauty.\n\n \n\nYou have to wonder about Tzadkiel though. He displays animalistic trends (meaning\n\nthe monkey-like Zak, his butterfly wings and the mention of his \"larvae). But he/she\n\nalso possesses superhuman beauty. An all-in-one god? Angel and demon? Hm....... \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6248B.7080703@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T02:52:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 10:43 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI REALLY think Wolfe uses an animalistic nature to mark the demonic \nfrom the angelic (as the Bible also does). We have the great beasts in \nthe ocean, we have Inire and his monkey nature and The Cumaean and her \nsnakey nature. This is in contrast to Barbatus and Famulimus who wear \nhorrible animal masks but only to disguise their superhuman beauty. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps more \"daemonic.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have to wonder about Tzadkiel though. He displays animalistic \ntrends (meaning the monkey-like Zak, his butterfly wings and the \nmention of his \"larvae). But he/she also possesses superhuman beauty. \nAn all-in-one god? Angel and demon? Hm......." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, in Wizard Knight there is an intimation that beyond the lower \ncircles lie the higher circles---that together they form a great circle. \nAnd so the low (animals) is mixed with the high (Most High)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA66BFA.2060904@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T07:57:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 9:43 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI don't understand why the book can't be about the sea monsters though. Don't\nthey have lives?\n\n\n\nJeff if you are implying that our myths and legends of ancient gods and monsters\n\nwere probably inspired by various real kings and mean guys, I agree. However I\n\nthink Wolfe, while also sort of agreeing, makes his fiction a little more blurred\n\non the lines of myth and reality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, that's right. But since L17M is possibly a book of similar age as \nthe monstrous presences, it's not a sure thing they were sufficiently \nestablished in legend at the time of its writing (or more likely, its \ncompilation) to be included. Also, sea monsters are not the sort of \nthing one immediately thinks of as having a biography-worthy life, and \nit is only in contemplation of the cosmic truths revealed by the Yesodis \ndirectly and via Aquastor Malrubius that we the readers know that they \nprobably do because they are part human.\n\nBut suppose the producers of the L17M book really did intend it to \ninclude things like the biography of Abaia, how on Urth could they \npossibly have anything like accurate information? You could more \nreasonably expect some ancient treatment of the notional life of the \nLoch Ness Monster was adapted by replacing Nessie with \"Abaia\" and Loch \nNess with \"the sea east of Nessus\".\n\nI've recently mentioned that we have something like this in our own \nancient history: the Caligula who offed himself at the end of a \nsodomy-soaked snuff ballet can't be the same Caligula recorded as having \nbeen assassinated by the Praetorian guard, for obvious reasons. Both \nstories are attributed to the same person of whom we have mostly \nobjective reasons to believe existed, but one or neither actually was \nhis life.\n\nOf course, in a time-travel book, we really can mix and match myth and \nreality..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I REALLY think Wolfe uses an animalistic nature to mark the demonic from the angelic\n\n(as the Bible also does)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er, no. Both sides display animal features at times, particularly \nnotable are the cherubim who support the throne of G-d and have lion, \nox, and eagle heads as well as human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have to wonder about Tzadkiel though. He displays animalistic trends (meaning\n\nthe monkey-like Zak, his butterfly wings and the mention of his \"larvae). But he/she\n\nalso possesses superhuman beauty. An all-in-one god? Angel and demon? Hm....... \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He says he retains the original form of the stock from which his race \nwas made by the vanished Hieros in their likeness. I think this is a \ncomment on man and man's image of himself and his assumed place in the \nuniverse, in a similar vein as \"What a piece of work is man...\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T08:59:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA66BFA.2060904@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm reminded of 'I, Cthulhu'. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA69EFF.6040200@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-25T11:35:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, you comment something I didn't say. I didn't\ndiscuss whether an alien can or can not have human emotions. I said that \nin the BoTNS\nand UoTNS\n( in the text!) no discernible human emotions are attributed to the \npersonages who are presented\nas aliens - first of all, Ossipago, Barbatus ... (who are \"explicitly\" \npresented as aliens),\nbut also to sea monsters, to walking statues, to Cumaean - and to Inire, \nand Tzadkiel -\n(in its version of Zak as well) - and Apheta -\n\nTo the contrary, the emotions of Hethor are aplenty, easily placed by \nSeverian\n(and easily met in real life), the same in case of boatman and even \nFechin (through\nthe story of Casdoe's father). Jonas is a \"chem\", so, in the context of \nWolfe's\nbooks, also rather human.\n\nThis difference (based on the text, not on our own ideas about aliens) \nmay be used as argument against the theories trying to identify Inire \nwith others.\n\n(continued below)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nSergei Soloviev: I think it is mentioned several times in BoTNS that FI is an \nalien. \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nOh, that actually makes me kind of sad. If robots (not just Jonas but also Sidero)\ncan have human emotions, why can't aliens? Especially, as some have suggested,\nthese aliens are evolved forms of humans who went out into space many millennia\nago.\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course you need not trust there \"rumours\" inside the book.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nCan't you? Remember these are not really \"rumours\" just as the dreams in Wolfe's\nbooks are not really dreams. They are consciously created story elements with a \npurpose.\n \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was ironic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Each time we meet Hethor his character is immediately recognizable.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI think it is important to remember that in all the appearances of Hethor \n(save one) he is fawning and sycophantic toward Severian, wishing to serve him\nand calling him Master. He seems especially adoring of Severian's torturer skills.\n(the only exception is toward the end of CotA in his final appearance where he\nsimply appears clutching Agia's breasts). I think there is a lot more to this \nHethor character than you are giving him credit for.\n \nPerhaps we should remember that Tzadkiel claims that he was, in a previous creation,\nan acolyte of Severian's. Doesn't that suggest that we should be able to spot\nTzadkiel as a worshipper of Severian earlier in the story? Or later if he is an\nacolyte of Severian as Conciliator. Actually, I think he can be found in both places.\n \nWas it Ryan who asked, \"how deep does this rabbit hole really go?\"\n \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All the appearances of Hethor - fawning combined with sadism - it is a \npsychological\n(or psychopathic) type existing in real life. Many pages of Wolfe can be \neasily\nconsidered as a part of a realistic story. Trying to identify him with \nan alien reduces\nhis interest as a human type. For me, the Wolfe's story is very rich and \ninteresting\nalso by its diversity. Diversity of human types as opposed to diversity \nof aliens, monsters etc.\nThe theories I don't like reduce this diversity. Your theories become \nricher - but the story\npoorer. Just so.\n\nBy the way, the \"old name\" corresponding to Hethor I think is just \"Hector\".\nI.e. - reference to Earth and its culture.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6AAF9.5080108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T12:26:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA69EFF.6040200@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/25/2011 7:35 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\nBy the way, the \"old name\" corresponding to Hethor I think is just \n\"Hector\".\nI.e. - reference to Earth and its culture. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A VERY old name. I wonder if some attributes are shared ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T14:01:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6AAF9.5080108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: IIRC, in Wizard Knight there is an intimation that beyond the lower \ncircles lie the higher circles---that together they form a great circle. \nAnd so the low (animals) is mixed with the high (Most High)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat does seem to describe Tzadkiel. The first time we see him, he is a giantic, island-\nsized angel floating in space. The second time we see him, he is a shapeless, hairy blob.\nWe then see him evolve through multiple stages, back to being a big angel, though never\nquite as big as an island. \n \nI wonder if there is a version of Tzadkiel even bigger than an island? Well, no point in \nthat for the purpose of the story. Abaia is as big as a mountain and mountains can be a\nsmaller part of islands, so I think Wolfe is using geographical terms to suggest the \nrelationship between these two sorts of beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I REALLY think Wolfe uses an animalistic nature to mark the demonic from the angelic\n(as the Bible also does)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Er, no. Both sides display animal features at times, particularly \nnotable are the cherubim who support the throne of G-d and have lion, \nox, and eagle heads as well as human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, I could argue that demons are far more often and graphically described in animal\nterms but, you are right and I appreciate the correction. I guess even the Bible \nrecognizes the essential kinship between angels and demons, even though they have\nchosen opposite sides." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He (Tzadkiel) says he retains the original form of the stock from which his race \nwas made by the vanished Hieros in their likeness. I think this is a \ncomment on man and man's image of himself and his assumed place in the \nuniverse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNice catch! That certainly agrees with the currently being discussed hypothesis that\nall the beings found in BotNS are originally of human stock. We may note that the\nMegatherian's large form is not human, but rather as beastie things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: I'm reminded of 'I, Cthulhu'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOkay! Well Neil Gaiman acknowledges being greatly influenced by Gene Wolfe. And of course\nboth were influenced by Lovecraft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: I said that in the BoTNSand UoTNS (in the text!) no discernible human emotions \nare attributed to the personages who are presented as aliens - first of all, Ossipago, Barbatus \n... (who are \"explicitly\" presented as aliens), but also to sea monsters, to walking statues, to \nCumaean - and to Inire, and Tzadkiel - (in its version of Zak as well) - and Apheta -" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. Well, I supposed the walking statues don't show any human emotion and we never see Abaia. \nBut all the others do seem to have feelings. In many ways they are more \"normal\" human-like in their \nemotions than crazy Hethor. B and F are calm, serene people but I think emotion is shown when they bend \ntheir knee to Severian. Also they always express joy to see him. Inire shows some emotion in the \nepisode with Domnina and his letter to Severian expresses great joviality. Tzadkiel shows less emotion\nwith each successive incarnation, but he/she still has some. And as Zak he demonstrates fear, anger and\naffection. Apeheta is pretty calm and serene like B and F but in contrast she finds Severian to be \ndisgusting and horrible. Quite beneath her, though she gains enough respect for him by the end of their\nencounter to admit her disgust to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: by the way, the \"old name\" corresponding to Hethor I think is just \n\"Hector\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff I.e. - reference to Earth and its culture. A VERY old name. I wonder if some attributes \nare shared ...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan Hector who was a brave and noble prince\nand warror? I don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it. \n \n(I did find one obscure reference to a Hethor who was sort of a demonic magistrate called an \"Astra\". his \nterm started around 50 B.C. and lasted 140 years. Not especially interesting though. \nSwitch to Plain Text to make this legible: http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA270&lpg=PA270&dq=hethor%20astra&sig=4KjPWjyps4WuczUPJ9WdvDltEoc&ei=ycCmTr-8BafL0QH1_92oDg&ct=result&sqi=2&id=zqcXAAAAYAAJ&ots=WmkyCYgzfz&output=text)\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9D3C5BB2BC1C491ABBB209B4A0DD8BE8@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T14:26:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6248B.7080703@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC, in Wizard Knight there is an intimation that beyond the lower \ncircles lie the higher circles---that together they form a great circle. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Lowest God claimed that. I’m not convinced we are supposed to believe him.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6CBCB.7040801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T14:46:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<9D3C5BB2BC1C491ABBB209B4A0DD8BE8@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, the lowest god flees at the end of the conversation and we see his \nback, so we know he is a liar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/25/2011 9:26 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "IIRC, in Wizard Knight there is an intimation that beyond the lower\ncircles lie the higher circles---that together they form a great \ncircle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Lowest God claimed that. I'm not convinced we are supposed to \nbelieve him.\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319556244.1688.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T15:24:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6CBCB.7040801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Tue, 10/25/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire as Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 7:46 AM\n\n\nIIRC, the lowest god flees at the end of the conversation and we see his back, so we know he is a liar.\n\nOn 10/25/2011 9:26 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: \n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC, in Wizard Knight there is an intimation that beyond the lower \ncircles lie the higher circles---that together they form a great circle. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Lowest God claimed that. I’m not convinced we are supposed to believe him.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n \nYeah, what these guys said. The interesting thing about this is that for the Aelf, humans are the next level \"gods\", so Able is in effect worshipping something that should be serving him with his objectification of Disiri. Is this inversion bad or good? In another spiritual writer I would probably say it's clearly bad, like letting money or lust drive us, but it seems as if almost \"any\" noble idealization might be worthy in the absence of the Universal.\n\n? Arthr needs to be a better ruler to improve life on the lower plains (the Aelf are serving debased and imperfect gods and this is reflected in their degeneration/unhappiness. That's kind of Able's message, his primary quest on that level of existence: Improving the lives of \"subjects\" by making a moral change in their god. (Sorry if I spelled those names wrong - been a long time since I looked at Wizard Knight). The low god would actually serve everything, the trickling down of all the bad characteristics, only \"believing\" that below him was the Most High as a way to make him seem equally important, when indeed he seems to be in the lowest position of creation. Interesting cosmology." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T15:37:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<99F94EE3EBA44714906EA6CA4BFD25AD@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n *From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Agia: \"His name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a much\nolder one, that\nhardly anyone has heard of now.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And don’t forget the clothes he sold in Agia’s shop. They weren’t Hiero\nclothes — they were ancient Urth clothes, but preserved by relativistic time\ndilation. Hethor’s ship, like that of Jonas, like all or most of those\nancient ships, got lost in time and wound up in the distant future of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His name is Charlton Heston. The \"ship that gets lost in time and returns\nto Earth in the future\" is a _Planet of the Apes_ allusion. Charlton is an\nold name that hardly anyone has heard of now. Hethor sounds enough like\nHeston without giving away the game. The clothes are a pun on his\ncharacter's name: Colonel George Taylor. Colonel can designate the\nsecond-highest field rank, so first mate fits.\n\n - Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6E02A.1050005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T16:13:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<1319556244.1688.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 10/25/2011 10:24 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n Yeah, what these guys said. The interesting thing about this is\n that for the Aelf, humans are the next level \"gods\", so Able is in\n effect worshipping something that should be serving him with his\n objectification of Disiri. Is this inversion bad or good? In\n another spiritual writer I would probably say it's clearly bad, like\n letting money or lust drive us, but it seems as if almost \"any\"\n noble idealization might be worthy in the absence of the Universal.\n\nI believe this is the over-all \"lesson\" of The Wizard Knight.\nAt the time Able is resurrected in Parca's Cave, Humanity is in thrall \nto dragons from the level even below the Aelf. The Aelf in turn are also \nenslaved by a dragon...the brother of the dragons ruling over Humanity. \nBecause of the degraded lot of humanity, the Aelf hold them in contempt. \nEverything is topsy-turvey.\n\nAlthough, Wolfe is not generally an allegorical writer, this aspect IS \nvery allegorical. Each level is a representation of human values. The \npeople of Skai represent ideals related to Honor. The Aelf, at least as \nfar as it touches on Able, represent ideals such as Romantic Love. The \ndragons that have conquered Aelfrice and Mythgarthr are lower ideals, \nsuch as Sexual Appetite and Greed. All these things, the story explains, \nare good in their place. But if the higher Ideals do not rule over them, \nthey become perverse.\n\nThus, St. Michael rules over Skai's Valfather--summoning him and causing \nhim to bow before him. He explains to Able that in order to be a knight, \nhe must be able to do the same with Disiri (Romantic Love). If she rules \nover him she will be a plague, not a virtue--just as the dragons have \nbecome.\n\nWhen Able IS able to summon her at the end, she is *raised* -- ennobled.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6E03A.2070105@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-25T16:13:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6AAF9.5080108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/25/2011 7:35 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, the \"old name\" corresponding to Hethor I think is just \n\"Hector\".\nI.e. - reference to Earth and its culture. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A VERY old name. I wonder if some attributes are shared ...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so - just one more element like \"Kim\" pointing to \nsomething very\nold.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6E4C8.9010104@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-25T16:33:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree with your disagreement -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: I said that in the BoTNSand UoTNS (in the text!) no discernible human emotions \nare attributed to the personages who are presented as aliens - first of all, Ossipago, Barbatus \n... (who are \"explicitly\" presented as aliens), but also to sea monsters, to walking statues, to \nCumaean - and to Inire, and Tzadkiel - (in its version of Zak as well) - and Apheta -\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree. Well, I supposed the walking statues don't show any human emotion and we never see Abaia. \nBut all the others do seem to have feelings. In many ways they are more \"normal\" human-like in their \nemotions than crazy Hethor. B and F are calm, serene people but I think emotion is shown when they bend \ntheir knee to Severian. Also they always express joy to see him. Inire shows some emotion in the \nepisode with Domnina and his letter to Severian expresses great joviality. Tzadkiel shows less emotion\nwith each successive incarnation, but he/she still has some. And as Zak he demonstrates fear, anger and\naffection. Apeheta is pretty calm and serene like B and F but in contrast she finds Severian to be \ndisgusting and horrible. Quite beneath her, though she gains enough respect for him by the end of their\nencounter to admit her disgust to him.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What you tell about their emotions are only guesses - like Odilo may \nguess something\nabout Inire. Very abstract, very approximative, like emotions of a \npicture on the wall,\nbecause we need to interpret in some way facial expressions and behaviour.\nI disagree that psychopath Hethor is exceptional, I would say, many of \nus even met\nsomebody like this, maybe to lesser degree. And Severian can place his \nemotions\n(and of other human personages) without difficulty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: by the way, the \"old name\" corresponding to Hethor I think is just \n\"Hector\".\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff I.e. - reference to Earth and its culture. A VERY old name. I wonder if some attributes \nare shared ....\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan Hector who was a brave and noble prince\nand warror? I don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it. \n \n(I did find one obscure reference to a Hethor who was sort of a demonic magistrate called an \"Astra\". his \nterm started around 50 B.C. and lasted 140 years. Not especially interesting though. \nSwitch to Plain Text to make this legible: http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA270&lpg=PA270&dq=hethor%20astra&sig=4KjPWjyps4WuczUPJ9WdvDltEoc&ei=ycCmTr-8BafL0QH1_92oDg&ct=result&sqi=2&id=zqcXAAAAYAAJ&ots=WmkyCYgzfz&output=text)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are trying to associate symbolic significance with every \nname in BoTNS. I think that\n(like \"kimleesong\") it is just reference to our time and our culture. \nHector is sufficiently\ncommon name. Maybe there is also some irony. (Not very heroic he is, \nHethor.)\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6EBAA.2050805@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-25T17:02:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abraxas", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6E4C8.9010104@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From \"Seven sermons to the dead\" by C. G. Jung (I've seen it in the \nappendix to\nMemories, Dreams, Reflections by C.G. Jung, Vintage Books, 1961.).\n\nI cannot quote all, but I think it is important for the understanding of \nBoTNS and Wolfe\nideas (at least as a context). The text is openly \"gnostic\". Jung writes \nit in the name of\nBasilide of Alexandria.\n\n...\n\n From Sermo III\n\nHard to know is the deity of Abraxas. Its power is the greatest, because \nman perceiveth it not.\n From the sun he draveth the summum bonum; from the devil the infimum \nmalum; but from Abraxas\nLIFE, altogether indefinite, the mother of good and evil.\n...\nThe power of Abraxas is twofold; but ye see it not, because for your \neyes the warring opposites of\nthis power are extinguished.\nWhat the god-sun speaketh is life.\nWhat the devil speaketh is death.\nBut Abraxas speaketh that hallowed and accursed word which is life and \ndeath at the same time.\n...\nEverything that ye create with the god-sun giveth effective power to the \ndevil.\nThat is terrible Abraxas.\nIt is the the mightiest creature, and in it the creature is afraid of \nitself.\nIt is the manifest opposition of creature to the pleroma and its \nnothingness.\n...\n\n From Sermo IV\n\n...\nEach star is a god, and each space that a star filleth is a devil. But \nempty-fullness\nof the whole is the pleroma.\nThe operation of the whole is Abraxas, to whom only the ineffective \nstandeth opposed.\nFour is the number of principal gods, as four is the number of the \nworld's measurements.\nOne is the beginning, the god-sun.\nTwo is Eros; for he bindeth twain together and outspreadeth himself in \nbrightness.\nThree is the Tree of Life, for it filleth space with bodily forms.\nFour is the devil, for he openeth all that is closed. All that is formed \nof bodily nature\ndoth he dissolve; he is the destroyer in whom everything is brought to \nnothing." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6EBB1.5010208@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T17:02:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6CBCB.7040801@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, OK." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/25/2011 10:46 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nIIRC, the lowest god flees at the end of the conversation and we see \nhis back, so we know he is a liar.\n\nOn 10/25/2011 9:26 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "IIRC, in Wizard Knight there is an intimation that beyond the lower\ncircles lie the higher circles---that together they form a great \ncircle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Lowest God claimed that. I’m not convinced we are supposed to \nbelieve him.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6ECA2.8010406@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T17:06:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6E4C8.9010104@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/25/2011 12:33 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: A VERY old name. I wonder if some attributes are \nshared ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan \nHector who was a brave and noble prince\nand warror? I don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the \nheck of it.\n(I did find one obscure reference to a Hethor who was sort of a \ndemonic magistrate called an \"Astra\". his term started around 50 B.C. \nand lasted 140 years. Not especially interesting though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are trying to associate symbolic significance with every \nname in BoTNS. I think that\n(like \"kimleesong\") it is just reference to our time and our culture. \nHector is sufficiently\ncommon name. Maybe there is also some irony. (Not very heroic he is, \nHethor.)\n\nSergei " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's to get? You just said it all. Or was that someone else?\n\nMantis thinks Hethor is Kim Lee Soong." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6ED1C.7020700@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-25T17:08:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6ECA2.8010406@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I've been answering Lee, but I cut off upper part of the message." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/25/2011 12:33 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff: A VERY old name. I wonder if some attributes are \nshared ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan \nHector who was a brave and noble prince\nand warror? I don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the \nheck of it.\n(I did find one obscure reference to a Hethor who was sort of a \ndemonic magistrate called an \"Astra\". his term started around 50 \nB.C. and lasted 140 years. Not especially interesting though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think you are trying to associate symbolic significance with every \nname in BoTNS. I think that\n(like \"kimleesong\") it is just reference to our time and our culture. \nHector is sufficiently\ncommon name. Maybe there is also some irony. (Not very heroic he is, \nHethor.)\n\nSergei " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's to get? You just said it all. Or was that someone else?\n\nMantis thinks Hethor is Kim Lee Soong.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T12:47:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6ED1C.7020700@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: I think I've been answering Lee, but I cut off upper part of the \nmessage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, when I first saw your mention of \"Kim\" I was confused. I thought maybe you had\nmixed up Mowgli and the Jungle Book with that other Kipling novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan \nHector who was a brave and noble prince\nand warror? I don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the \nheck of it.\n(I did find one obscure reference to a Hethor who was sort of a \ndemonic magistrate called an \"Astra\". his term started around 50 \nB.C. and lasted 140 years. Not especially interesting though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are trying to associate symbolic significance with every \nname in BoTNS. I think that\n(like \"kimleesong\") it is just reference to our time and our culture. \nHector is sufficiently\ncommon name. Maybe there is also some irony. (Not very heroic he is, \nHethor.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though I corrected you before, you again insinuate that I am attempting to inject my own\nmeanings into the text. Again I tell you I am not. I am trying NOT to. I am only\ninterested in Gene Wolfe's intentions. My extensive research into Gene Wolfe biographies and\ninterviews reflects this purpose.\n \nIf my own personal perceptions get into the picture on occasion it is an error. One which I \nhope to correct. I appreciate the help in making the corrections. It seems there are some \nwho find everything I write to be in error and are trying to be very helpful in pointing my \ncomplete and utter misunderstanding of Gene Wolfe. Thanks.\n \nI don't think Kim Lee Soong has mythological significance in this story. But Gene Wolfe was\nstationed in Korea during the war and I suspect he did not choose it as a casual throw-away.\nI think the name probably has significant personal importance for him. If he is willing to\nput \"Gene Wolfes\" into his stories and inject his family members here and there why wouldn't\nhe also put his friends in, now and then?\n \nI don't think every single name in the Sun Series has deep, symbolic significance. But many do\nincluding most of the main characters, of whom Hethor is one. There is symbolic significance to\nthe names Thecla, Dorcas, Inire, Agia, Catherine, Talos, Baldanders, The Cumaean, Typhon, \nPalaemon, Isangoma, Tzadkiel, Apheta, Abaia, Erebus, Fauna, etc. etc. .\n \nHethor is the name of a minor demonic magistrate and we are told his real, concealed name is\nsomething much older. But I am supposed to think Gene Wolfe means his real name to be \"Hector\" \nsimply because that is a common name? (it isn't common in the USA, btw). Sorry, but this \ndoes not sound like Gene Wolfe to me. Especially not in the Sun Series in which names and naming\nsystems are of such obvious importance. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA80BA0.7040600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-26T13:31:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA66BFA.2060904@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great name for a band!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/25/2011 3:57 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nsnuff ballet" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA80F4D.2090303@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T13:46:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/25/2011 10:37 AM, Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nOn Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:\n\n *From:* Lee Berman \n\n > Gerry Quinn:\n > >Agia: \"His name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a\n much older one, that\n > >hardly anyone has heard of now.\"\n And don’t forget the clothes he sold in Agia’s shop. They weren’t\n Hiero clothes — they were ancient Urth clothes, but preserved by\n relativistic time dilation. Hethor’s ship, like that of Jonas, like\n all or most of those ancient ships, got lost in time and wound up in\n the distant future of Urth.\n\n\nHis name is Charlton Heston. The \"ship that gets lost in time and\nreturns to Earth in the future\" is a _Planet of the Apes_ allusion.\nCharlton is an old name that hardly anyone has heard of now. Hethor\nsounds enough like Heston without giving away the game. The clothes are\na pun on his character's name: Colonel George Taylor. Colonel can\ndesignate the second-highest field rank, so first mate fits." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good one, Thomas!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA80FAB.3040102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T13:48:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/25/2011 9:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan Hector who\nwas a brave and noble prince and warror?\nI don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not prepared to show that Wolfe has woven elements of the Illiad \ninto the life of Severian, but it would be very much like Wolfe to do \nthat. And Hector, and as the nemesis of the sword wielding Achilles and \nslayer of his alter-ego, would be a fine reference to Severian's Hethor.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA80FB7.7070705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-26T13:48:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 8:47 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nHethor is the name of a minor demonic magistrate and we are told his real, concealed name is\nsomething much older. But I am supposed to think Gene Wolfe means his real name to be \"Hector\"\nsimply because that is a common name? (it isn't common in the USA, btw). Sorry, but this\ndoes not sound like Gene Wolfe to me. Especially not in the Sun Series in which names and naming\nsystems are of such obvious importance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly \"Hector\" should have significance, even if ironic. But what's \na demonic magistrate?\n\nWhat of the other suggested names: Kimleesoong? Heston/Colonel George \nTaylor?\n\nI'm not sure a friend would appreciate having a pervert named for him. \nHethor doesn't seem the type to have followers anyway.\n\nThe PoA reference is great thought oblique. Still, it sums up why Hethor \nis here at all---his ship got lost in the fabric of space and ended up \ncrashing in the far future Urth.\n\nBeyond that, we really don;t need to know much more about him, since we \nalready know quite a bit. He is a symbol of perversion of lust, power, \nand technology. As controller/lover of Agia, Queen of the Greenwood, \nhe's got it made in this urthly plane, at least in terms of \nsensual/sensory satisfaction. He's been led aside by his desires and \nhe's OK with that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA80FCA.2060603@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T13:48:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/25/2011 9:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: by the way, the \"old name\" corresponding to Hethor I think is just\n\"Hector\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did not say this. Again, Lee, please be more careful about your quoting." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA810CB.7090606@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-26T13:53:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA80FAB.3040102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 9:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 10/25/2011 9:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan \nHector who\nwas a brave and noble prince and warror?\nI don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not prepared to show that Wolfe has woven elements of the Illiad \ninto the life of Severian, but it would be very much like Wolfe to do \nthat. And Hector, and as the nemesis of the sword wielding Achilles \nand slayer of his alter-ego, would be a fine reference to Severian's \nHethor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does he slay Sev's alter ego? I don't recall Hether successfully \nkilling anyone." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA81110.7040504@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T13:54:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA80BA0.7040600@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 8:31 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nGreat name for a band!\n\nOn 10/25/2011 3:57 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "snuff ballet" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the inevitable comparison to Spandau Ballet would detract from \nit, and I shudder to think what sort of T-shirt Son-o-Witz would draw \nfor them!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA81285.50908@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:00:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA810CB.7090606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 8:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/26/2011 9:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/25/2011 9:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan\nHector who\nwas a brave and noble prince and warror?\nI don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not prepared to show that Wolfe has woven elements of the Illiad\ninto the life of Severian, but it would be very much like Wolfe to do\nthat. And Hector, and as the nemesis of the sword wielding Achilles\nand slayer of his alter-ego, would be a fine reference to Severian's\nHethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does he slay Sev's alter ego? I don't recall Hether successfully\nkilling anyone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His slug does in several of the sorcerors at least. Which would be \nsomewhat apt, since Hector thinks he is killing Achilles but does in \nPatroclus instead." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA81440.20909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:08:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA80FAB.3040102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/25/2011 9:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan \nHector who\nwas a brave and noble prince and warror?\nI don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 8:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nI'm not prepared to show that Wolfe has woven elements of the Illiad \ninto the life of Severian, but it would be very much like Wolfe to do \nthat. And Hector, and as the nemesis of the sword wielding Achilles \nand slayer of his alter-ego, would be a fine reference to Severian's \nHethor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then who is Helen? Presumably Agia. Is Dorcas then Thecla, Achilles' \nmother (whose might by Tethys by another name (a name that means \n\"grandmother\")? Or is she Doris, the mother of Thetis (her own \ngrandmother by way of Tethys), which would then mean Severian's \nmysterious mother is the shape-changing Thetis?\n\nI'm not saying Wolfe did this, but when he does this sort of thing he's \nreally clever about it and it's tough to anticipate him. It's never as \neasy as here's a brave guy whose a lot like \"So-and-so\".\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA8144B.2080202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:08:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA81285.50908@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:00 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/26/2011 8:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/26/2011 9:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/25/2011 9:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan\nHector who\nwas a brave and noble prince and warror?\nI don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not prepared to show that Wolfe has woven elements of the Illiad\ninto the life of Severian, but it would be very much like Wolfe to do\nthat. And Hector, and as the nemesis of the sword wielding Achilles\nand slayer of his alter-ego, would be a fine reference to Severian's\nHethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How does he slay Sev's alter ego? I don't recall Hether successfully\nkilling anyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His slug does in several of the sorcerors at least. Which would be \nsomewhat apt, since Hector thinks he is killing Achilles but does in \nPatroclus instead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhat. But Sev does not seek vengeance on Hethor for killing his \nlover/friend. You'd think that would be the main reference point." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7D40984E00304E5EAD59818F08ADC574@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:11:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA80FB7.7070705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \n\n\n[Hethor]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Beyond that, we really don;t need to know much more about him, since we \nalready know quite a bit. He is a symbol of perversion of lust, power, \nand technology. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he’s just a baddie, without too much symbolic overloading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As controller/lover of Agia, Queen of the Greenwood, \nhe's got it made in this urthly plane, at least in terms of \nsensual/sensory satisfaction. He's been led aside by his desires and \nhe's OK with that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agia reckons she controls him, and it seems a fair assessment. Of course, he may be happy enough with his side of the bargain.\nAs for his name, he is clearly mad and his shipmates referred to him as a “header” or head case. Due to a period of imposed political correctness, perhaps in the Machine Era, such names are no longer used.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA816BA.1060901@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:18:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA8144B.2080202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 9:08 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/26/2011 10:00 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/26/2011 8:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/26/2011 9:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 10/25/2011 9:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan\nHector who\nwas a brave and noble prince and warror?\nI don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm not prepared to show that Wolfe has woven elements of the Illiad\ninto the life of Severian, but it would be very much like Wolfe to do\nthat. And Hector, and as the nemesis of the sword wielding Achilles\nand slayer of his alter-ego, would be a fine reference to Severian's\nHethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How does he slay Sev's alter ego? I don't recall Hether successfully\nkilling anyone. [...] But Sev does not seek vengeance on Hethor for \nkilling his lover/friend. You'd think that would be the main \nreference point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the important point of Patroclus in the story is that he dons \nthe mantle of Achilles for a while and is then slain. In that sense, he \nplays the role played by Mordred and other usurpers in mythology. Who \nkilled Dux Caesidius?\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA81774.4090108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:21:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA81440.20909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:08 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nThen who is Helen? Presumably Agia. Is Dorcas then Thecla, Achilles' \nmother (whose might by Tethys by another name (a name that means \n\"grandmother\")? Or is she Doris, the mother of Thetis (her own \ngrandmother by way of Tethys), which would then mean Severian's \nmysterious mother is the shape-changing Thetis? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn;t know Thecla is Achilles' mother---Mantis does not note it. But \nthat does suggest a starting point to a thread of Illiad connections. \nHowever, I'd approach that by asking how Thecla is Sev's mother, and I \ndon;t have an answer.\n\nIn a way she does push him out into the world, but her later merging \nwith him only suggests motherhood if you require incest as a minimum \nfeature of all Sev's relationships. Rather than giving him his life, she \ngives him her life. I don;t see this going far." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA81ACB.9080504@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:35:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA81774.4090108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/26/2011 10:08 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then who is Helen? Presumably Agia. Is Dorcas then Thecla, Achilles' \nmother (whose might by Tethys by another name (a name that means \n\"grandmother\")? Or is she Doris, the mother of Thetis (her own \ngrandmother by way of Tethys), which would then mean Severian's \nmysterious mother is the shape-changing Thetis? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn;t know Thecla is Achilles' mother" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mis-write. Thetis, not Thecla." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA81D6F.7020507@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:47:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA81285.50908@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would like to repeat that my approach to interpretation is different,\nI believe there is a network of analogies, of cross references in the \ntext, rather\nthan strong causal connection. The name may be Hector, but I do\nnot say that it implies that all the other elements of Iliad must have\nparallels in BoTNS.\n\nWe already discussed that the name Dorcas corresponds to the name\nof the girl resurrected in the Bible. But it doesn't imply that all\nthe other episodes of the Bible have their counterpart in BoTNS!\nThere is too much references to different sources, they\ncannot be all reflected to the same extent (hidden or not)\nin BoTNS. (Cf. my post about Abraxas.)\n\nI suggested that Hector may be just one more reference to our time.\n\nThe name Hector may be rare in the USA, but Urth is not USA!\nBy the way, other personage named Hector was captain Hector\nServadac in a novel by Jules Verne:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the coast of Algiers, French Captain Hector Servadac, his orderly \nBen Zoof and the ground >below their feet are ripped from the Earth by a \npassing comet. (Amazon)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whet the name Kim Lee Soong is mentioned, it is told also that\nthe lands where this people lived are now under the sea. I.e., to give us\nsome information about the changing \"face of Urth\".\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 10/26/2011 8:53 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/26/2011 9:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/25/2011 9:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't get this. What resemblance does Hethor have to the Trojan\nHector who\nwas a brave and noble prince and warror?\nI don't think WOlfe would pick this name just for the heck of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not prepared to show that Wolfe has woven elements of the Illiad\ninto the life of Severian, but it would be very much like Wolfe to do\nthat. And Hector, and as the nemesis of the sword wielding Achilles\nand slayer of his alter-ego, would be a fine reference to Severian's\nHethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How does he slay Sev's alter ego? I don't recall Hether successfully\nkilling anyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His slug does in several of the sorcerors at least. Which would be \nsomewhat apt, since Hector thinks he is killing Achilles but does in \nPatroclus instead." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA81E44.3010109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:50:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<7D40984E00304E5EAD59818F08ADC574@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:11 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n**\n**\n[Hethor]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Beyond that, we really don;t need to know much more about him, since we\nalready know quite a bit. He is a symbol of perversion of lust, power,\nand technology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he’s just a baddie, without too much symbolic overloading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, evil is never just evil in Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As controller/lover of Agia, Queen of the Greenwood,\nhe's got it made in this urthly plane, at least in terms of\nsensual/sensory satisfaction. He's been led aside by his desires and\nhe's OK with that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agia reckons she controls him, and it seems a fair assessment. Of \ncourse, he may be happy enough with his side of the bargain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's say they have a mutually controlling relationship. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for his name, he is clearly mad and his shipmates referred to him \nas a “header” or head case. Due to a period of imposed political \ncorrectness, perhaps in the Machine Era, such names are no longer used." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They didn't actually say \"header,\" did they?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA81E7E.4090201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:51:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA81ACB.9080504@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:35 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 10/26/2011 9:21 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:08 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Then who is Helen? Presumably Agia. Is Dorcas then Thecla, Achilles' \nmother (whose might by Tethys by another name (a name that means \n\"grandmother\")? Or is she Doris, the mother of Thetis (her own \ngrandmother by way of Tethys), which would then mean Severian's \nmysterious mother is the shape-changing Thetis? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn;t know Thecla is Achilles' mother" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mis-write. Thetis, not Thecla." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whew!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:55:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA81E7E.4090201@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: > On 10/26/2011 8:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nI'm not prepared to show that Wolfe has woven elements of the Illiad \ninto the life of Severian, but it would be very much like Wolfe to do \nthat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree, it WOULD be like Wolfe. It wasn't only me who was able to follow\nJames' lead in recognizing that the sober, brilliant young general Spring\nWind and the arrogant, vain Typhon are connected by a wind theme and the \ncontrasting youth and later years of Alexander The Great." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Hector, and as the nemesis of the sword wielding Achilles \nand slayer of his alter-ego, would be a fine reference to Severian's \nHethor. Then who is Helen? Presumably Agia. Is Dorcas then Thecla, Achilles' \nmother " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nUnfortunately, the dots aren't connecting for me at all here. I'm pretty familiar\nwith the Iliad but I don't recognize its characters' aspects in BotNS characters as \nI can for other likely Wolfe mythological allusions. \n \n(Hercules' life seems a much closer match to severian's, though I think I can only\nfind plausible matches for 7 or 8 of the labors) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319641303.17105.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:01:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Eco on the radio this morning and lying/signs in fiction", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This morning as I was coming in to work, Umberto Eco was on the radio! In his thick accent, he was answering questions about his writing philosophy and making other comments. I was really suprised to hear it on the radio. The interviewer asked him why he was obsessed with liars in his fiction, why his narrators like Baudolino were so untrustworthy, and it reminded me of recent debates over the trustworthiness of Wolfe narrators.\n\nEco claimed that as a man interested in semiotics, the creation of signs, that when human being create signs half the time they intend the contrary, and in fact want to conceal the truth, and that this occurs at almost every level of human interaction from the education of children to interpersonal relationships, and that ficiton is another level of this lying but the suspension of disbelief allows us to get together and lie about the existence of little red riding hood. However, his attempt at verisimilitude and capturing humans and their communication style and the relationship between sign and signified would of course have to incorporate the tendency of humans to lie and have personal motivations in concealment in the creation of their signs.\n\nConsequently, in Eco we will have unreliable narrators because people are unreliable according to his philosophy almost 50% of the time. \n\nJust thought this was interesting, I think some authors are more obsessed with this than others." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:01:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA81E44.3010109@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:11 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for his name, he is clearly mad and his shipmates referred to him \nas a “header” or head case. Due to a period of imposed political \ncorrectness, perhaps in the Machine Era, such names are no longer used." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They didn't actually say \"header,\" did they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a common expression in Ireland. If you say “he’s a header” it will be understood as “he’s a head case”.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319641752.88747.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:09:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Father Inire as Dionysus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 8:01 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:11 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for his name, he is clearly mad and his shipmates referred to him \nas a “header” or head case. Due to a period of imposed political \ncorrectness, perhaps in the Machine Era, such names are no longer used." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They didn't actually say \"header,\" did they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a common expression in Ireland. If you say “he’s a header” it will be understood as “he’s a head case”.\n\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n“Why would Wolfe use an Irish expression in his far future Byzantine/South America?” I would need other examples of Irish slang associated with Hethor." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:40:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<1319641752.88747.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Certainly \"Hector\" should have significance, even if ironic. But what's \na demonic magistrate?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know! I found it in an obscure occult text from 1920. I don't normally read such\nstuff. But I get the impression Gene Wolfe has. There really aren't many online references\nto the name \"Hethor\" and most of them are post-BotNS (i.e. probably inspired by it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What of the other suggested names: Kimleesoong? Heston/Colonel George \nTaylor?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Humorously, I also considered \"Heston\" as a possible inspiration for \"Hethor\" but only because\nI detect other 60's pop culture references in BotNS. I don't think it is a serious consideration\nthough.\n \nI just don't get this stuff about \"Hector\". Wolfe isn't doing that (changing the spelling/sound\nof mythological names). He doesn't give us Syphon or The Cumaeshion or Tzradspiel. He uses the\noriginal, correct english spelling (or at least one of them, when there are variants)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure a friend would appreciate having a pervert named for him. \nHethor doesn't seem the type to have followers anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, with all due credit (a lot!) to Mantis, I think he is off base in thinking Hethor is \nKim Lee Soong. There is so much else about Hethor which points elsewhere.\n \nYes there is the suggestion that Hethor avoids Jonas to avoid being recognized. And in UotNS\nSeverian sees a Jonas look-alike on the ship and a Hethor look-alike on the ship. That's \nenough for me. They were ship mates.\n \nI think it is a goosechase to think there is more than one ship which becomes lost in the folds\nof time. The text hints there is only one and I take the hint. Hethor's ship is the Quasar which\n(at least in the 70's) is the oppsite of a black hole, a White Fountain. That ship travels to Yesod \nto retrieve the White Fountain. Severiran's\"family\" crest includes a ship and a fountain. These\nclues paint a pretty clear picture for me. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA82D74.8040300@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:55:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about the epoch when humankind travelled to the Stars? Vodalus wants\nto restore it. Hardly possible if there was always just one ship.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Certainly \"Hector\" should have significance, even if ironic. But what's \na demonic magistrate?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know! I found it in an obscure occult text from 1920. I don't normally read such\nstuff. But I get the impression Gene Wolfe has. There really aren't many online references\nto the name \"Hethor\" and most of them are post-BotNS (i.e. probably inspired by it).\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What of the other suggested names: Kimleesoong? Heston/Colonel George \nTaylor?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Humorously, I also considered \"Heston\" as a possible inspiration for \"Hethor\" but only because\nI detect other 60's pop culture references in BotNS. I don't think it is a serious consideration\nthough.\n \nI just don't get this stuff about \"Hector\". Wolfe isn't doing that (changing the spelling/sound\nof mythological names). He doesn't give us Syphon or The Cumaeshion or Tzradspiel. He uses the\noriginal, correct english spelling (or at least one of them, when there are variants).\n \n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure a friend would appreciate having a pervert named for him. \nHethor doesn't seem the type to have followers anyway.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, with all due credit (a lot!) to Mantis, I think he is off base in thinking Hethor is \nKim Lee Soong. There is so much else about Hethor which points elsewhere.\n \nYes there is the suggestion that Hethor avoids Jonas to avoid being recognized. And in UotNS\nSeverian sees a Jonas look-alike on the ship and a Hethor look-alike on the ship. That's \nenough for me. They were ship mates.\n \nI think it is a goosechase to think there is more than one ship which becomes lost in the folds\nof time. The text hints there is only one and I take the hint. Hethor's ship is the Quasar which\n(at least in the 70's) is the oppsite of a black hole, a White Fountain. That ship travels to Yesod \nto retrieve the White Fountain. Severiran's\"family\" crest includes a ship and a fountain. These\nclues paint a pretty clear picture for me. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA830E6.4040901@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:10:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 11:40 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI don't know! I found it in an obscure occult text from 1920. I don't \nnormally read such stuff. But I get the impression Gene Wolfe has. \nThere really aren't many online references to the name \"Hethor\" and \nmost of them are post-BotNS (i.e. probably inspired by it). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like it!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, with all due credit (a lot!) to Mantis, I think he is off base in thinking Hethor is\nKim Lee Soong. There is so much else about Hethor which points elsewhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes there is the suggestion that Hethor avoids Jonas to avoid being recognized. And in UotNS\nSeverian sees a Jonas look-alike on the ship and a Hethor look-alike on the ship. That's\nenough for me. They were ship mates." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Easily. Whether there is more than 1 ship or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is a goosechase to think there is more than one ship which becomes lost in the folds\nof time. The text hints there is only one and I take the hint. Hethor's ship is the Quasar which\n(at least in the 70's) is the oppsite of a black hole, a White Fountain. That ship travels to Yesod\nto retrieve the White Fountain. Severiran's\"family\" crest includes a ship and a fountain. These\nclues paint a pretty clear picture for me. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently there are ships and there are Ships. I am sure Typhon's fleet \ndid not consist of a single ship full of freaks and mutants. I don't \nthink Hethor's ship really IS the White Fountain. Severian is the White \nFountain and rode Tzadkiel's ship; Hethor and Jonas may have as well. \nThe Ship gets around. but it can't be all ships." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:13:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA830E6.4040901@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Solviev: What about the epoch when humankind travelled to the Stars? \nVodalus wants to restore it. Hardly possible if there was always just one ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTzadkiel's ship was not used to spread humanity from Urth throughout the galaxy.\nThe towers/hulks which comprise much of the Citadel are examples of these ships\nand they are quite different than Tzadkiel's.\n\nMoreover, Tzadkiel's ship is not of Urthly origin. It is so gigantic (and perhaps \nso mystical) that it can't approach Urth and requires a smaller tender ship to \nferry passengers to the planet. \n\nTzadkiel's ship does so much more than go to the stars. It travels to the end\nof the universe (which is also its beginning). No other ship can do that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:28:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Severian is the White Fountain and rode Tzadkiel's ship; " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat's correct. And Gene Wolfe knew this while writing the first few chapters\nof his book as evidenced by Severian's family crest. He expected us to figure \nthat out without what we learn in UotNS. Holy Crap, Gene! That's crazy!\n \nBut it does illustrate how deeply Wolfe is willing to bury his mysteries though\nsome will eternally doubt it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apparently there are ships and there are Ships. I am sure Typhon's fleet \ndid not consist of a single ship full of freaks and mutants. I don't \nthink Hethor's ship really IS the White Fountain....; Hethor and Jonas may have\n(rode the Ship) as well. The Ship gets around. but it can't be all ships." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, no but as I noted in the post to Sergei, it is the only Ship which can travel\nto the end (and beginning) of the universe to retrieve the White Fountain. \n \nI mentioned to Sergei about the ship hulks which serve as portions of the Citadel.\nAnd your mention of a \"fleet\" brings to mind that B, F and O have their own ship\nwhich they use to hover above Baldanders' castle and which they use to rescue \nSeverian from his Apu Punchau burial chamber. That ship, while big, is not nearly\nas big as Tzadkiel's Ship (the \"Quasar\" if we may believe Hethor). \n \nIs B, F and O's ship the tender? I kinda think the tender is even smaller than\ntheir ship because it can land directly on the ground. So maybe Tzadkiel does sorta\nhave a \"fleet\". But I am still quite sure there is only one *Ship*.\n \n \n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA83678.5020104@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:34:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The ships in the citadel are landers - it is noticed several times \nduring the\nvisits of Horn/Silk. They cannot go to the stars. They may\nremain from the epoch when humankind travelled to the stars, but\nonly one true starcrosser - Whorl - is really described. But there\nsurely had to be more (and Quasar - one of them) at this old glorious\nepoch. By the way, the Neighbours should be familiar with star travel,\notherwise they would not mention the Whorl as starcrosser so casually.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nSergei Solviev: What about the epoch when humankind travelled to the Stars? \nVodalus wants to restore it. Hardly possible if there was always just one ship.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nTzadkiel's ship was not used to spread humanity from Urth throughout the galaxy.\nThe towers/hulks which comprise much of the Citadel are examples of these ships\nand they are quite different than Tzadkiel's.\n\nMoreover, Tzadkiel's ship is not of Urthly origin. It is so gigantic (and perhaps \nso mystical) that it can't approach Urth and requires a smaller tender ship to \nferry passengers to the planet. \n\nTzadkiel's ship does so much more than go to the stars. It travels to the end\nof the universe (which is also its beginning). No other ship can do that. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T17:18:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA83678.5020104@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: The ships in the citadel are landers - it is noticed several \ntimes during the visits of Horn/Silk. They cannot go to the stars. They may\nremain from the epoch when humankind travelled to the stars, but\nonly one true starcrosser - Whorl - is really described. But there\nsurely had to be more (and Quasar - one of them) at this old glorious\nepoch. By the way, the Neighbours should be familiar with star travel,\notherwise they would not mention the Whorl as starcrosser so casually." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I will concede that my mention of the Citadel hulks is not the\nbest example. But you reminded me of the example I meant to include but\nforgot:\n \nThe Whorl. I can't understand how you can liken The Whorl to The Ship when they\nare so different. The Whorl is a hollowed out asteroid. The Ship is constructed \nof metal with wood decks. The Whorl uses whatever propulsion and is sub-light\nspeed. The Ship uses mirror sails and transcends the speed of light.\n \nAre you really thinking the Whorl can travel to the ends of the Universe and go\nto Yesod? It seems barely able to travel to a star visible from Urth.\n \nMoreover, Hethor crewed on a ship with demon-haunted sails. There is only one\nShip we are shown which has these. The text suggests Tzadkiel's Ship might be\na singular, unique entity threading through time. From these clues I think we can \ndiscern what Wolfe is trying to say.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T17:21:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\n... well, no point in quoting; I concede the facts, and further agree\nthat it's clear that Hethor, at some point, crewed aboard The Ship.\nBut that's a far cry from making him identical with Tzadkiel and/or\nFr. Inire. After all, _lots_ of people have crewed aboard The Ship." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319650378.59615.YahooMailNeo@web114720.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T17:32:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nLee Berman wrote:\n\n... well, no point in quoting; I concede the facts, and further agree\nthat it's clear that Hethor, at some point, crewed aboard The Ship.\nBut that's a far cry from making him identical with Tzadkiel and/or\nFr. Inire. After all, _lots_ of people have crewed aboard The Ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's your evidence for that? Surely it's?obvious that there's only one Crewman who does lots of time travel.\n\n(Since some people may not have noticed that Gerry was joking about \"header\", I'll mention that I'm joking.)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA84742.1040502@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-26T17:45:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 1:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n... well, no point in quoting; I concede the facts, and further agree\nthat it's clear that Hethor, at some point, crewed aboard The Ship.\nBut that's a far cry from making him identical with Tzadkiel and/or\nFr. Inire. After all, _lots_ of people have crewed aboard The Ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In truth, I wonder if we all have crewed, or will crew, aboard The Ship. \nBut that's another (ghost) story." } ] }, { "message_id": "<871E6F1511F7463F920235E0ADACE41C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T12:37:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is a goosechase to think there is more than one ship which \nbecomes lost in the folds of time. The text hints there is only one and\nI take the hint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where is this ?hint?? The text TELLS us quite clearly that there were many:\n\"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships that sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't costumes or forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain for centuries in the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his ships all those ships became lost in the blackness between the suns, where the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot find them.\"\nThere’s also Jonas’s crashed ship. Unless you think that Tzadkiel is going to crash on Urth some time in his future and Urth’s past. Because he expects to find a port, and it is gone (that’s why they crashed).\nThere’s only one Ship. But there are lots of ships.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA957CB.5070201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-27T13:08:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<871E6F1511F7463F920235E0ADACE41C@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/27/2011 8:37 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman \n**\nI think it is a goosechase to think there is more than one ship which\nbecomes lost in the folds of time. The text hints there is only one and\nI take the hint.\nWhere is this ?hint?? The text TELLS us quite clearly that there were \nmany:\n\"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old \nships that sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't \ncostumes or forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain \nfor centuries in the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his \nships all those ships became lost in the blackness between the suns, \nwhere the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot find them.\"\nThere’s also Jonas’s crashed ship. Unless you think that Tzadkiel is \ngoing to crash on Urth some time in his future and Urth’s past. \nBecause he expects to find a port, and it is gone (that’s why they \ncrashed).\nThere’s only one Ship. But there are lots of ships.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. But it also says \"all those ships\" became lost. So it's ambiguous. \nAre there STILL any ships other than The Ship?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T13:38:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA957CB.5070201@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/27/2011 8:37 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman \n**\nI think it is a goosechase to think there is more than one ship which\nbecomes lost in the folds of time. The text hints there is only one and\nI take the hint.\nWhere is this ?hint?? The text TELLS us quite clearly that there were \nmany:\n\"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old \nships that sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't \ncostumes or forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain \nfor centuries in the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his \nships all those ships became lost in the blackness between the suns, \nwhere the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot find them.\"\nThere’s also Jonas’s crashed ship. Unless you think that Tzadkiel is \ngoing to crash on Urth some time in his future and Urth’s past. \nBecause he expects to find a port, and it is gone (that’s why they \ncrashed).\nThere’s only one Ship. But there are lots of ships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. But it also says \"all those ships\" became lost. So it's ambiguous. \nAre there STILL any ships other than The Ship?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably lots of the old lost ships are still lost and turn up occasionally, like the Fortunate Cloud and perhaps the Quasar (we don’t know how Hethor returned to Urth).\nOther ships exist too: the Whorl currently orbits a distant star, which is itself inhabited by spacefaring aliens. The ships that got away from Typhon’s empire no doubt escaped to advanced planets where interstellar travel remains commonplace. \nFinally, on the subject of multiple ships, Wolfe’s appendix to CotA goes into some detail, and always uses the plural. Among other things he notes that: “the star-traveling ships appear to be propelled by light pressure on immense sails of metal foil”.\nHe also indicates that the ships are commanded by the Hierodules but sometimes crewed by human beings, and that Jonas and Hethor appear to have been crewmen on such ships. [However, it seems improbable that the Fortunate Cloud was so commanded; it seems to me to have been the product of an Asian culture much closer to our own times than the setting of BotNS.]\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA9963D.60806@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-27T17:34:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that \"Quasar\" was possibly a name for the Ship (Tzadkiel's \nship).\nIt sounds to me a name from some sort of \"space opera\", fit for spaceships\nfrom technocratic era. By the way, a ship sent to bring a \"white\nfountain\" would not be called \"Quasar\" (it would bring bad luck, sailors\nare superstitious) ...\n\nIn our day America ships (space missions etc) are\nnot called after the aim of the mission - missions to Moon were not called\n\"Moon\" (or Diana, or Artemis) but Apollo, you had \"Spirit\" and \"Opportunity\"\non Mars etc - Even \"Mariner\" is not derived from \"Mars\".\n\nLanders can land without landing pad, as we know from \"Short Sun\".\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n \n \n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 10/27/2011 8:37 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Lee Berman \n**\nI think it is a goosechase to think there is more than one ship \nwhich\nbecomes lost in the folds of time. The text hints there is only \none and\nI take the hint.\nWhere is this ?hint?? The text TELLS us quite clearly that there were\nmany:\n\"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old\nships that sailed beyond the world's rim long ago, and they weren't\ncostumes or forgeries or even tomb-tender old garments that had lain\nfor centuries in the dark, but clothes not far from new. He said his\nships all those ships became lost in the blackness between the suns,\nwhere the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot find them.\"\nThere’s also Jonas’s crashed ship. Unless you think that Tzadkiel is\ngoing to crash on Urth some time in his future and Urth’s past.\nBecause he expects to find a port, and it is gone (that’s why they\ncrashed).\nThere’s only one Ship. But there are lots of ships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. But it also says \"all those ships\" became lost. So it's ambiguous.\nAre there STILL any ships other than The Ship?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nProbably lots of the old lost ships are still lost and turn up \noccasionally, like the Fortunate Cloud and perhaps the Quasar (we \ndon’t know how Hethor returned to Urth).\n \nOther ships exist too: the Whorl currently orbits a distant star, \nwhich is itself inhabited by spacefaring aliens. The ships that got \naway from Typhon’s empire no doubt escaped to advanced planets where \ninterstellar travel remains commonplace.\n \nFinally, on the subject of multiple ships, Wolfe’s appendix to CotA \ngoes into some detail, and always uses the plural. Among other things \nhe notes that: “the star-traveling ships appear to be propelled by \nlight pressure on immense sails of metal foil”.\n \nHe also indicates that the ships are commanded by the Hierodules but \nsometimes crewed by human beings, and that Jonas and Hethor appear to \nhave been crewmen on such ships. [However, it seems improbable that \nthe Fortunate Cloud was so commanded; it seems to me to have been the \nproduct of an Asian culture much closer to our own times than the \nsetting of BotNS.]\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAABE42.4080504@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-28T14:37:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EA9963D.60806@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was it discussed before that \"Cumaean\" is probably just\nthe Cumaean Sybil from Earth (or her \"projection\")?\n\nSergei" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T16:35:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire as Dionysus", "in_reply_to": "<4EAABE42.4080504@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: Was it discussed before that \"Cumaean\" is probably just\nthe Cumaean Sybil from Earth (or her \"projection\")?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. But I'd hesitate to say \"just\" the Cumaean Sybil. There is a lot of\nrelevant associations about her to consider. This character in mythology\nwas a cave-dwelling Pythian (snake) Priestess of Apollo. She asked him for \nimmortality and got it but she forgot to request eternal youth, so she gets \npretty old and shrivelled. She is noted as being the first to herald the \ncoming of Christ, by some (despite her pagan nature).\n \nThe Cumaean Sibyl is associated with the goddess Fauna, so I have little \ndoubt that the old woman in The Town That Forgot Fauna, is (in some manner)\nThe Cumaean.\n \nThe text pairs The Cumaean with Father Inire and I've posted before about\nInire's name likely linking him to Faunus. So mythology provides more \nevidence for the textual link between these two characters.\n \nThe Cumeaean Sybil was a prophetess and Isangoma repeatedly calls Marie\n\"The Preceptress\" in the Jungle Hut. Might be a coincidence. But not very\nlikely if Isangoma is Father Inire.\n \nThe Homeric Hymn to Apollo also links The Cumaean Sibyl to Echidna. Not a\nshocker since both are cave dwellers and snake-associated. This might \nsuggest a connection between The Cumaean and Typhon that isn't too\ndifficult to figure out.\n \nThere are a few more dots which can be connected but I'll leave it at that\nfor now. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }