{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6077", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6077, "subject": "Jordan interview", "messages": 24, "voices": 10, "first": "2011-10-21T21:27:05+00:00", "last": "2011-10-24T12:15:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T21:27:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan interview", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have just been looking at the Jordan interview with GW, which has\nbeen mentioned here a few times lately, and I noticed a couple of\nthings.\n\nFirst, I can't find any reference to God's promise to Noah - the claim\nthat this is a long past universe is one that Wolfe makes unprompted,\nwhen asked if it is this universe or a future one. However, he adds\n'Something that we are repeating rather than something that we are',\nwhich to me seems to count against the idea that that universe is\nradically different in nature from the one we are in.\n\nThe other thing is the 'Christ figure' remark, which is often quoted\nin a way that's not quite right. Here's what Wolfe says: 'In so far as\nthere is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't mean he has to\nbe identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to that of\nChrist. But really it is a different position because Christ really is\nboth God and man. Severian is not. Severian is a Christian rather than\na Christ.'" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T23:27:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, October 21, 2011 16:27, Andrew Mason wrote:\nI have just been looking at the Jordan interview with GW, which has\nbeen mentioned here a few times lately, and I noticed a couple of\nthings.\n\nFirst, I can't find any reference to God's promise to Noah - the claim\nthat this is a long past universe is one that Wolfe makes unprompted,\nwhen asked if it is this universe or a future one. However, he adds\n'Something that we are repeating rather than something that we are',\nwhich to me seems to count against the idea that that universe is\nradically different in nature from the one we are in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would be interesting to see if there are any references to rainbows on\nUrth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other thing is the 'Christ figure' remark, which is often quoted\nin a way that's not quite right. Here's what Wolfe says: 'In so far as\nthere is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't mean he has to\nbe identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to that of\nChrist. But really it is a different position because Christ really is\nboth God and man. Severian is not. Severian is a Christian rather than\na Christ.'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This at least is consistent with the Long Sun and Short Sun books, where\nChristianity seems to be am emergent phenomenon." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4AFDFF10-F90A-4C8E-A109-9F02A680E012@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-10-21T23:42:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 21, 2011, at 7:27 PM, \"Jeff Wilson\" wrote:\nIt would be interesting to see if there are any references to rainbows on\nUrth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To that end, does it ever rain on Urth? I'm trying to remember. Something about a Thecla memory with puddles stands out maybe?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<61B6555D-2F0E-43B3-A3E1-5D8D3F36F705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T11:33:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 22/10/2011, ?s 00:27, \"Jeff Wilson\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, October 21, 2011 16:27, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The other thing is the 'Christ figure' remark, which is often quoted\nin a way that's not quite right. Here's what Wolfe says: 'In so far as\nthere is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't mean he has to\nbe identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to that of\nChrist. But really it is a different position because Christ really is\nboth God and man. Severian is not. Severian is a Christian rather than\na Christ.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This at least is consistent with the Long Sun and Short Sun books, where\nChristianity seems to be am emergent phenomenon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The genesis of a Christianity without a historical Christ - either because there never was one, or because he's been forgotten. Sounds interesting. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3ac11244ac1a8ba636ef9b32047491eb.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T12:41:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan interview", "in_reply_to": "<61B6555D-2F0E-43B3-A3E1-5D8D3F36F705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, October 22, 2011 06:33, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 22/10/2011, ?s 00:27, \"Jeff Wilson\" \nThis at least is consistent with the Long Sun and Short Sun books, where\nChristianity seems to be am emergent phenomenon.\n\nThe genesis of a Christianity without a historical Christ - either because\nthere never was one, or because he's been forgotten. Sounds interesting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a real-world idea similar to it called \"Anonymous Christianity\" -\nthe redemptive power of the sacrifice truly was for everyone, even those\nwho had no way to hear about it.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Christian" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T15:56:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "<3ac11244ac1a8ba636ef9b32047491eb.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: The genesis of a Christianity without a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "historical Christ - either because there never was one, or because " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "he's been forgotten. Sounds interesting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI agree. And mark me down in the camp who thinks Christ has not \n\nappeared in the Briah universe.\n\n \n\nIt was recently noted that as Briah is a previous iteration of\n\nour own universe, it should resemble it closely and therefore\n\nhave a Christ. I agree!\n\n \n\nMy view is that Briah/Urth simply has not gotten its version of Christ\n\nyet. The Flood of Urth is part of the preparation stages for him and\n\nthey will get their Christ at some future, unwritten point in the story.\n\n \n\nIf we can accept that Urth is different enough from Earth that the Andes\n\nare on the east coast of South America rather than the west, surely we\n\ncan accept a small difference such as Christ appearing on Urth in (their\n\nequivalent of) 50,000 A.D. rather than the 1 A.D. appearance of Christ \n\non Earth. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T17:03:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nI agree. And mark me down in the camp who thinks Christ has not\nappeared in the Briah universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then how explain the references to the Theoanthropos?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was recently noted that as Briah is a previous iteration of\nour own universe, it should resemble it closely and therefore\nhave a Christ. I agree!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My suggestion is that there was a historical person named Jesus who\ndid many of the things Christ did, but who was not God. Mythology\nbuilt up about him and people came to believe that he was the\nTheoanthropos, as (in Wolfe's world) myths tend to resemble the One\nTruth over time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T19:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mark me down in the camp who thinks Christ has not\nappeared in the Briah universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Then how explain the references to the Theoanthropos?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWithout meaning to slight Christianity, the theoanthropic concept did not\n\noriginate with Jesus Christ. It can be found in pre-Christian religions \n\nstretching from Hinduism to Greek and Egyptian mythology.\n\n \n\nI really think Agia's use of \"the name of the Theanthropos\" as an expletive\n\nto Severian is a purposefully ironic joke by Wolfe. I think the Theanthropos\n\nrefers to The Conciliator for those in the commonwealth. As I've noted in \n\nrecent posts, Severian seems to be immortal and in possession of supernatural\n\npower yet never in his writing (until perhaps the final pages of UotNS) does\n\nhe even slightly acknowlege his own godhood (I can accept demi-godhood as I \n\nthink Jeff prefers to think of it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l: My suggestion is that there was a historical person named Jesus who\ndid many of the things Christ did, but who was not God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThis I agree with. But I don't think we see any reference to this guy until \n\nSilk mentions his dream of a guy welcomed with palm fronds, etc. In my view,\n\nWolfe mentions this Jesus not-Christ, and roods and gammadions and the distorted\n\nRoman Catholic Church in Viron as a way of saying that many Christians get too\n\ninvolved and attached to the trappings and rituals of their religion and forget \n\nthat the essence of their faith (missing in Urth/Whorl) is Christ.\n\n \n\nI don't agree with Marc that Wolfe retconned Urth/Briah into a previous-\n\nparallel planet/universe to our own after writing it. I see it there from the \n\nbeginning of the story. I think this is the origin of the ubiquitous \"fuligin\" \n\ntheme.\n\n \n\nI think it was a pretty standard 70's-80's SF trope that you passed from a\n\nhigher univere to a lower universe by going through a black hole and \n\nemerging from a \"white fountain\" or quasar. Asimov used this exact scenario\n\nin The Gods Themselves and didn't the later Star Treks use it also?\n\n \n\nAnyway, I think Wolfe puts Severian in fuligin and uses the color so liberally\n\nin the story as a way of indicating that Severian and Urth are accessible from\n\nour Earth only via a black hole. Yes, there is the plowman's explanation that\n\nfuligin is good for not showing blood splashes, but I think there is more to it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T20:25:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nmark me down in the camp who thinks Christ has not\nappeared in the Briah universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Then how explain the references to the Theoanthropos?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Without meaning to slight Christianity, the theoanthropic concept did not\noriginate with Jesus Christ. It can be found in pre-Christian religions\nstretching from Hinduism to Greek and Egyptian mythology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. But when you're dealing with a writer who insists that there\nis only one Theoanthropos in the history of all universes, that\nbecomes semirelevant at best." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really think Agia's use of \"the name of the Theanthropos\" as an expletive\nto Severian is a purposefully ironic joke by Wolfe. I think the Theanthropos\nrefers to The Conciliator for those in the commonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you point to any evidence for this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This I agree with. But I don't think we see any reference to this guy until\nSilk mentions his dream of a guy welcomed with palm fronds, etc. In my view,\nWolfe mentions this Jesus not-Christ, and roods and gammadions and the distorted\nRoman Catholic Church in Viron as a way of saying that many Christians get too\ninvolved and attached to the trappings and rituals of their religion and forget\nthat the essence of their faith (missing in Urth/Whorl) is Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you here, and pretty much the rest of your post." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA33444.7090208@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-22T21:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/22/2011 4:25 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "mark me down in the camp who thinks Christ has not\nappeared in the Briah universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Then how explain the references to the Theoanthropos?\nWithout meaning to slight Christianity, the theoanthropic concept did not\noriginate with Jesus Christ. It can be found in pre-Christian religions\nstretching from Hinduism to Greek and Egyptian mythology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. But when you're dealing with a writer who insists that there\nis only one Theoanthropos in the history of all universes, that\nbecomes semirelevant at best." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure? Given Wolfe's view of how myths work / myth works?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I really think Agia's use of \"the name of the Theanthropos\" as an expletive\nto Severian is a purposefully ironic joke by Wolfe. I think the Theanthropos\nrefers to The Conciliator for those in the commonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you point to any evidence for this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems impossible to prove. But given that the term predated Christ, \nwhat else could it indicate but a non-Christ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This I agree with. But I don't think we see any reference to this guy until\nSilk mentions his dream of a guy welcomed with palm fronds, etc. In my view,\nWolfe mentions this Jesus not-Christ, and roods and gammadions and the distorted\nRoman Catholic Church in Viron as a way of saying that many Christians get too\ninvolved and attached to the trappings and rituals of their religion and forget\nthat the essence of their faith (missing in Urth/Whorl) is Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with you here, and pretty much the rest of your post." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's a pretty big deal that at least three of us here agree that \nWolfe offers a critique of his adopted religion in the Briah series. \nI've argued for it before: that I would extend the critique to Severian \nhimself in terms of certain darker episodes in the Catholic Church's \npast. Just sayin'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319325417.18934.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T23:16:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "<4EA33444.7090208@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Sat, 10/22/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's a pretty big deal that at least three of us\nhere agree that Wolfe offers a critique of his adopted\nreligion in the Briah series. I've argued for it before:\nthat I would extend the critique to Severian himself in\nterms of certain darker episodes in the Catholic Church's\npast. Just sayin'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But ... but ... while certainly there are catholic ceremonies and celibate echoes of the priesthood in both all the Sun novels, it is tradition perverted. This is the religion Wolfe has chosen as an adult.\n\nI don't think it's a critique so much as a use of the familiar tropes of his faith. Wolfe is not like Luther. You can find a critique if you are looking for it, but Pas' church is NOT the catholic church no matter how much it may be based upon it, and his attempts to deify himself through that institution actually made him SERVE the will of the Outsider in the final analysis - if you steal the Outsider's means, he will transform you or steal them back somehow to serve His purpose.\n\nI think this \"critique\" is one of those eye of the beholder things - is he criticizing his church or its transformation and subborning into something \"other\"? As a Catholic myself, you know what I would say to that question, but I do think Wolfe's religious stance is one of the trickiest in sci fi, if not in all of literature." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA36D2F.9090409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-23T01:26:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "<1319325417.18934.YahooMailClassic@web161802.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/22/2011 7:16 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n--- On Sat, 10/22/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it's a pretty big deal that at least three of us\nhere agree that Wolfe offers a critique of his adopted\nreligion in the Briah series. I've argued for it before:\nthat I would extend the critique to Severian himself in\nterms of certain darker episodes in the Catholic Church's\npast. Just sayin'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But ... but ... while certainly there are catholic ceremonies and celibate echoes of the priesthood in both all the Sun novels, it is tradition perverted. This is the religion Wolfe has chosen as an adult.\n\nI don't think it's a critique so much as a use of the familiar tropes of his faith. Wolfe is not like Luther. You can find a critique if you are looking for it, but Pas' church is NOT the catholic church no matter how much it may be based upon it, and his attempts to deify himself through that institution actually made him SERVE the will of the Outsider in the final analysis - if you steal the Outsider's means, he will transform you or steal them back somehow to serve His purpose.\n\nI think this \"critique\" is one of those eye of the beholder things - is he criticizing his church or its transformation and subborning into something \"other\"? As a Catholic myself, you know what I would say to that question, but I do think Wolfe's religious stance is one of the trickiest in sci fi, if not in all of literature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I understand you correctly, you're saying that no author can critique \n(not \"criticize\") his religion.\n\nNote also that by \"religion\" I do not refer to anything other than that \npart of religion (all of it, I'd say, but I don't want to create a \ndistraction here) which is entirely created by humans." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319333654.16085.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T01:34:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "<4EA36D2F.9090409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 10/22/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nIf I understand you correctly, you're saying that no author\ncan critique \n(not \"criticize\") his religion.\n\nNote also that by \"religion\" I do not refer to anything\nother than that \npart of religion (all of it, I'd say, but I don't want to\ncreate a \ndistraction here) which is entirely created by humans.\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, you misunderstand me. Of course he can critique his religion. I'm just not sure that's what he's doing. I think he is showing how when Typhon rips it off and tries to take Gods place, it still leads to the Outsider. \nAnd if he believes in papal authority, it ISN'T created entirely by humans, when Jesus gave certain powers to his representative on earth, Peter. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA373E6.1000900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-23T01:54:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "<1319333654.16085.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/22/2011 9:34 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n--- On Sat, 10/22/11, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I understand you correctly, you're saying that no author\ncan critique (not \"criticize\") his religion.\n\nNote also that by \"religion\" I do not refer to anything\nother than that part of religion (all of it, I'd say, but I don't want to\ncreate a distraction here) which is entirely created by humans.\n_______________________________________________\nNo, you misunderstand me. Of course he can critique his religion. I'm just not sure that's what he's doing. I think he is showing how when Typhon rips it off and tries to take Gods place, it still leads to the Outsider." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if he believes in papal authority, it ISN'T created entirely by humans, when Jesus gave certain powers to his representative on earth, Peter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he can do both, and does. One simply can't depict a colorful, \nspectacular, empty religion without fingering any number of religions at \ntheir worst moments. Every religion has those worst moments. At least \nlet's agree the Byzantine church is a suspect!\n\nI hear you on the papal authority thing. It seems very odd for Wolfe to \nbelieve in it, since he attaches so much importance and authority to \npeople's trying to come to grips with divinity without knowing \"the \ntruth.\" But there it is." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T02:41:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "<4EA373E6.1000900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Dannehy-Oakes: Agreed. But when you're dealing with a writer " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "who insists that there is only one Theoanthropos in the history of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "all universes, that becomes semirelevant at best." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like David, I would like a link to this quote if possible. I don't\n\nnecessarily doubt it, but it would be nice to see it in context.\n\n \n\nIs it possible Wolfe spoke of one \"Increate\" in the history of all\n\nuniverses?\n\n \n\nI do think The Increate mentioned in BotNS might be the Judeo-Christian\n\ngod, Jaweh (or perhaps the God of the Trinity, which some consider to be \n\ndifferent than Jaweh).\n\n \n\nOn the other hand, I don't think The Pancreator is the Christian God, nor \n\nthe Outsider. They seem to be more along the lines of demiurge to me. In \n\nfact a demiurge is mentioned in BotNS along with other spooky gnostic deities \n\nlike The Abraxas.\n\n \n\nFor those who think The Outsider is meant to be our \"one, true God\" of all\n\nuniverses I would pose a question:\n\n \n\nWhy is the Outsider repeatedly and strongly characterized as a dark god?\n\nA fuligin god even. Isn't the one, true, Judeo-Christian God defined primarily\n\nas a God of light? (Genesis 1:1-4, below)\n\n \n\nI suppose some might argue that the Judeo-Christian God is a complete God\n\nencompassing both dark and light. While that may be so, it doesn't explain\n\nwhy The Outsider is characterized only as dark. And not just black, but the\n\ndeepest kind of dark that sucks up all light. When has the God of the Holy \n\nTrinity ever been described like that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. \n3 And God said, ?Let there be light, and there was light. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6743119799054FF1BDC80D5B23D350C4@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T09:39:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do think The Increate mentioned in BotNS might be the Judeo-Christian\ngod, Jaweh (or perhaps the God of the Trinity, which some consider to be \ndifferent than Jaweh)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On the other hand, I don't think The Pancreator is the Christian God, nor \nthe Outsider. They seem to be more along the lines of demiurge to me " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? Doesn’t PanCreator just mean “creator of all” while Increate means “existing without having created?” Both are attributes of the Christian God (and the Muslim God, who is referenced in BotLS, so we know Islam existed in Urth’s past too). I think PanCreator and Increate both refer to the same monotheistic tradition, though it may well have evolved new scriptures and iconography." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For those who think The Outsider is meant to be our \"one, true God\" of all\nuniverses I would pose a question:\n\n Why is the Outsider repeatedly and strongly characterized as a dark god?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see that he is. What examples do you have in mind? Of course Silk does think of him as being linked to the darkness beyond the Whorl; but Silk is trapped in a decaying microcosm, and the only hope of salvation is to flee into that spangled darkness. \n\nThe descriptions of the Outsider in the casts of characters at the start of the latter three books are interesting:\n\nLake: the minor god who enlightened Silk.\nCalde: the god of the broken and disparaged, whose realm lies outside the Whorl\nExodus: the god of gods\n\nGiven that the writer is Wolfe, and taking into account other events such as Silk’s vision of Jesus, I don’t think this leaves very much room for doubt about the identity of the Outsider. (One might speculatively identify the three descriptions with the Persons of the Trinity, but that is not essential to the main reading.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA43809.5020307@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-23T15:51:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "<6743119799054FF1BDC80D5B23D350C4@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just one remark:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Why is the Outsider repeatedly and strongly characterized as a dark god?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The medieval Christian mystics (Meister Eckhart, Ruysbroeck) often told \nthat God\nis \"creative void\" or \"creative darkness\" or even \"creative \nnothingness\" - I am sure\nWolfe knows this very well. When Lee says \"dark god\" - I have an \nimpression -\nhe refers to modern mythology, where \"dark\" means \"bad\", \"light\" means \n\"good\".\n\ncheers\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n \n \n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do think The Increate mentioned in BotNS might be the Judeo-Christian\ngod, Jaweh (or perhaps the God of the Trinity, which some consider \nto be\ndifferent than Jaweh)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On the other hand, I don't think The Pancreator is the Christian \nGod, nor\nthe Outsider. They seem to be more along the lines of demiurge to me" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nWhy? Doesn’t PanCreator just mean “creator of all” while Increate \nmeans “existing without having created?” Both are attributes of the \nChristian God (and the Muslim God, who is referenced in BotLS, so we \nknow Islam existed in Urth’s past too). I think PanCreator and \nIncreate both refer to the same monotheistic tradition, though it may \nwell have evolved new scriptures and iconography." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For those who think The Outsider is meant to be our \"one, true God\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of all\nuniverses I would pose a question:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Why is the Outsider repeatedly and strongly characterized as a dark \ngod?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t see that he is. What examples do you have in mind? Of course \nSilk does think of him as being linked to the darkness beyond the \nWhorl; but Silk is trapped in a decaying microcosm, and the only hope \nof salvation is to flee into that spangled darkness. \n \nThe descriptions of the Outsider in the casts of characters at the \nstart of the latter three books are interesting:\n \nLake: the minor god who enlightened Silk.\nCalde: the god of the broken and disparaged, whose realm lies outside \nthe Whorl\nExodus: the god of gods\n \nGiven that the writer is Wolfe, and taking into account other events \nsuch as Silk’s vision of Jesus, I don’t think this leaves very much \nroom for doubt about the identity of the Outsider. (One might \nspeculatively identify the three descriptions with the Persons of the \nTrinity, but that is not essential to the main reading.)\n \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n \n \n \n \n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA46568.8060005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-23T19:05:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/22/2011 10:41 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nFor those who think The Outsider is meant to be our \"one, true God\" of all\n\nuniverses I would pose a question:\n\n\n\nWhy is the Outsider repeatedly and strongly characterized as a dark god?\n\nA fuligin god even. Isn't the one, true, Judeo-Christian God defined primarily\n\nas a God of light? (Genesis 1:1-4, below)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because he dwells in the dark behind the sun, we can't see him with our \neyes." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA467E4.5020002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T19:15:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (23-10-2011 03:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, I don't think The Pancreator is the Christian God,\nnor the Outsider. They seem to be more along the lines of demiurge to me.\nIn fact a demiurge is mentioned in BotNS along with other spooky gnostic\ndeities like The Abraxas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "? Certainly a demiurge creates. It's the Outsider who isn't referred to\nas a creator, iirc." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA47533.7090705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-23T20:12:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "<4EA43809.5020307@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/23/2011 11:51 AM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nJust one remark:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Why is the Outsider repeatedly and strongly characterized as a dark \ngod?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The medieval Christian mystics (Meister Eckhart, Ruysbroeck) often \ntold that God\nis \"creative void\" or \"creative darkness\" or even \"creative \nnothingness\" - I am sure\nWolfe knows this very well. When Lee says \"dark god\" - I have an \nimpression -\nhe refers to modern mythology, where \"dark\" means \"bad\", \"light\" means \n\"good\".\n\ncheers\n\nSergei " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "excellent! Before the creation there was \"nothingness.\" Not nothing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T20:27:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "<4EA47533.7090705@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: When Lee says \"dark god\" - I have an \nimpression - he refers to modern mythology, where \"dark\" means " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"bad\", \"light\" means \"good\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n \n\nI do not mean this nor do I think Wolfe does. I think Wolfe uses\n\nthe Sun Series to recognize that (as in Genesis 1:1) dark is the\n\nnecessary precursor to light. Severian's universe is the necessary\n\nprecursor to ours. \"Good\" and \"bad\" are human judgements. Divine\n\nnecessity has no part of it.\n\n \n\n \n\nI can agree in general that modern Christian religion/mythology casts \n\nlight as good and dark as bad. I suppose my previous post was in \n\nrecognition of this in wondering why, if Wolfe intended the Outsider\n\nto be our OUR GOD, why he made Him solely dark, without even a nod to a\n\ndark/light balance. If the Outsider is supposed to be Jahweh or the God\n\nof the Trinity I'm afraid I find him disguised so completely as to find\n\nhim unrecognizable.\n\n \n\nI rest on Wolfe's interview statements. Briah is a previous universe to \n\nours. A darker one. Severian may be a dark version of our Saviour, the \n\nOutsider may be a dark precursor to our God.\n\n \n\nOrigin of Myth. I think keeping this concept in mind helps so much in \n\nunderstanding what Wolfe is saying in the Sun series. The Outsider\n\nis specifically identified with Dionysus. Why?\n\n\nDionysus is a huge part of our \"dark\" pre-Christian religion and spiritual\n\nside. Christianity has demonized him over and over, casting his goat aspect\n\ninto the classic depiction of Satan, etc. I think Wolfe is trying to say\n\nwith this story just what was initially addressed in this post. Dionysus\n\nworship was dark but not necessarily satanic. Dionysus was the proper god\n\nfor his time period and place as the Outsider is for Briah. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T22:19:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marquez wrote:\n\nLee Berman wrote (23-10-2011 03:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand, I don't think The Pancreator is the Christian God,\nnor the Outsider. They seem to be more along the lines of demiurge to me.\nIn fact a demiurge is mentioned in BotNS along with other spooky gnostic\ndeities like The Abraxas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "? Certainly a demiurge creates. It's the Outsider who isn't referred to\nas a creator, iirc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the Outsider is identified with the Maker in the Pajarocu story.\n\n'Demiurge' does indeed just mean 'maker'; it has a specific\nconnatation in gnosticism, where it is opposed to the true God, but in\nother contexts this need not be implied.\n\n'Abraxas' does seem to be a gnostic word, but apparently it's unclear\nwhether it is a name of the Archon or of the true God, so it's\nuncertain what we should." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-23T22:21:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fwd: Jordan interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote:\nso it's" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "uncertain what we should.\n\nmake of it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA556E5.7090108@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-10-24T12:15:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jordan Interview", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this post interesting. I have to think about it.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nSergei Soloviev: When Lee says \"dark god\" - I have an \nimpression - he refers to modern mythology, where \"dark\" means \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"bad\", \"light\" means \"good\".\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\n \n\nI do not mean this nor do I think Wolfe does. I think Wolfe uses\n\nthe Sun Series to recognize that (as in Genesis 1:1) dark is the\n\nnecessary precursor to light. Severian's universe is the necessary\n\nprecursor to ours. \"Good\" and \"bad\" are human judgements. Divine\n\nnecessity has no part of it.\n\n \n\n \n\nI can agree in general that modern Christian religion/mythology casts \n\nlight as good and dark as bad. I suppose my previous post was in \n\nrecognition of this in wondering why, if Wolfe intended the Outsider\n\nto be our OUR GOD, why he made Him solely dark, without even a nod to a\n\ndark/light balance. If the Outsider is supposed to be Jahweh or the God\n\nof the Trinity I'm afraid I find him disguised so completely as to find\n\nhim unrecognizable.\n\n \n\nI rest on Wolfe's interview statements. Briah is a previous universe to \n\nours. A darker one. Severian may be a dark version of our Saviour, the \n\nOutsider may be a dark precursor to our God.\n\n \n\nOrigin of Myth. I think keeping this concept in mind helps so much in \n\nunderstanding what Wolfe is saying in the Sun series. The Outsider\n\nis specifically identified with Dionysus. Why?\n\n\nDionysus is a huge part of our \"dark\" pre-Christian religion and spiritual\n\nside. Christianity has demonized him over and over, casting his goat aspect\n\ninto the classic depiction of Satan, etc. I think Wolfe is trying to say\n\nwith this story just what was initially addressed in this post. Dionysus\n\nworship was dark but not necessarily satanic. Dionysus was the proper god\n\nfor his time period and place as the Outsider is for Briah. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }