{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6079", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6079, "subject": "Father Inire/Paleamon", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2011-10-22T00:27:45+00:00", "last": "2011-10-22T00:56:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T00:27:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire/Paleamon", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did anybody on here ever consider a connection between Inire and\nPaleamon? Paleamons face is always obscured by his goggles and his\nname is one of saintly and mythic origins. I would even go so far as\nto say that there are two Paleamons. The original human one who\nhimself was exiled and the alien one (Inire?) who replaced him to keep\nwatch over Sev and guide him to his eventual destiny. There are many\nmysteries regarding the old torturer (why was he exiled? How did he\naquire Terminus Est? Etc.) that I think Wolfe wants us to puzzle out.\nAny thoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/19/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On Wed, 10/19/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Undine's nature\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 5:49 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "she also apparently sleeps with Dorcas, who would be her gran." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?> Correct. I perceive the incest curse to extend across all members of\nSeverian's family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This says something about his relationship to Agia and Agilus. (and\nexplains the\nimpossible mutual? sexual attraction Severian and Jolenta feel for each\nother at\nCtesiphon's Cross)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really don’t understand your obsession with this supposed “incest curse”.\nThe women Severian is attracted to comprise a remarkably even social,\ngeographic and biological cross-section of the inhabitants of the\nCommonwealth, which as well as being convenient to an author wishing to\ndescribe the realm, probably also has symbolic value given that Severian\nwill eventually become Autarch, and then the Epitome of Urth. That they are\nall related to Severian — and therefore related among themselves — seems\nnigh on unbelievable.\n\nAnd *everybody* is attracted to Jolenta. That’s the point of her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ruling out what most consider the most likely candidate for Severian’s\nputative sister,\nsimply because he does not note that he is sexually attracted to her,\nseems a perverse\nreading in every sense of the word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a perverse story written by a perverse author. If your\nworld/literary view still\ndirects you to think of WOlfe as a very chaste and sexually virtuous\nauthor after\nall these years I think that is to your eternal credit and speaks highly\nof your own\nmorally upstanding nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perverse it may be, but that doesn’t mean that every perversity imaginable\nmust necessarily be omnipresent in the text. Extraordinary hypotheses\nrequire extraordinary evidence.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\nI agree with Gerry on this one. One perversity does not imply universal\nperversity. Blood calling to blood in the lake of birds is fine, but I\nnever bought the \"golden\"?glow indicating relationship thing Borski brings\nup for the simple reason that Sev himself has black hair.\n\nThe huge socio economic diversity of the women make it impossible for them\nall to be related to him. Rather, individual descriptions should show\ngenetic relationship: tall, thin waist but not weak looking, dark hair,\npale. Pia is the only one who matches that description as far as I\nremember. — The only reason we are looking for Severa is the fact that\nnames like that are usually paired in the common wealth, but one case of\nincest does not imply ALL cases of incest.\n\nWolfe blurs identity of one or two characters, but we shouldn't assume that\nall identities are completely blurred. Malrubius is not Paleamon, Juturna\nis not Dorcas. Inire is not everybody, though he might be somebody, or,\nwith enough evidence, two somebodies." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T00:32:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire/Paleamon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:27 PM, larry miller wrote:\nDid anybody on here ever consider a connection between Inire and\nPaleamon? Paleamons face is always obscured by his goggles and his\nname is one of saintly and mythic origins. I would even go so far as\nto say that there are two Paleamons. The original human one who\nhimself was exiled and the alien one (Inire?) who replaced him to keep\nwatch over Sev and guide him to his eventual destiny. There are many\nmysteries regarding the old torturer (why was he exiled? How did he\naquire Terminus Est? Etc.) that I think Wolfe wants us to puzzle out.\nAny thoughts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was under the impression Palaemon was potentially Ossipago. Some have made a case for:\n\nInire is Shaman is Ossipago is Boatman is Fechin is Hethor is...\n\nWhy I like Inire as playing the part of many characters is that it pairs well with the structure of characters in a play, a theme we see throughout the books.\n\nAnd I am a sucker for the idea of Inire (father) playing a supervisory, escort sort of role in the Severian experiment, until they get it right and save the planet, universe, et al.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-22T00:56:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire/Paleamon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do remember reading something about a Paleamon/Ossipago connection.\nSomething to do with Sev never seeing Ossipagos eyes. I always\nthought that Ossipago was a robot. His name if Im not mistaken means\ngrower of bone or calcium if you like. This certainly fits with\nWolfes naming strategum for Chems." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/21/11, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\nOn Oct 21, 2011, at 8:27 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did anybody on here ever consider a connection between Inire and\nPaleamon? Paleamons face is always obscured by his goggles and his\nname is one of saintly and mythic origins. I would even go so far as\nto say that there are two Paleamons. The original human one who\nhimself was exiled and the alien one (Inire?) who replaced him to keep\nwatch over Sev and guide him to his eventual destiny. There are many\nmysteries regarding the old torturer (why was he exiled? How did he\naquire Terminus Est? Etc.) that I think Wolfe wants us to puzzle out.\nAny thoughts?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was under the impression Palaemon was potentially Ossipago. Some have made\na case for:\n\nInire is Shaman is Ossipago is Boatman is Fechin is Hethor is...\n\nWhy I like Inire as playing the part of many characters is that it pairs\nwell with the structure of characters in a play, a theme we see throughout\nthe books.\n\nAnd I am a sucker for the idea of Inire (father) playing a supervisory,\nescort sort of role in the Severian experiment, until they get it right and\nsave the planet, universe, et al.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }