{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6082", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6082, "subject": "Catherine", "messages": 16, "voices": 5, "first": "2011-10-24T16:23:21+00:00", "last": "2011-10-25T13:48:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T16:23:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: Thats an interesting theory that Catherine may be the woman \ndug up by Vodalus. If she indeed inhabited the Atrium of Time as some suggest\nshe could have easily have died after her appearances as St Katherine\nand been buried in the past. Perhaps she was being led to her death\non the Path of Air? I also would love to hear your theory on this, no\nmatter how fantastical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. A little preparatory spade work is necessary though. First, I'd say the \nAtrium of Time itself is not itself a time travel device. HOwever it is surrounded \nby towers which are. We have The Last House (Master Ash) as a model of static time \ntravel structures. Severian has trouble finding it and Valeria's tower without following the \nproper path through a labyrinthine entranceway. The lower levels of these time structures\nopen earlier in time. The upper levels open later in time. Valeria lives in the lower \nlevels of her tower. She has an antique quality and thus she likely dwells in the past.\n \nCatherine is apparently a Citadel dweller. The Path of Air is part of the House Absolute\n(actually part of Father Inire's Secret House, but anyway...). What connections are there\nfrom The Citadel to The House Absolute?\n \nWe are told Ultan's Library extends from The Citadel to House Absolute. It is below ground\nlevel and Severian has to go down some stairs to get there. We are told Rudesind's Art\nGallery extends from The Citadel to HOuse Absolute. It seems to be roughly at ground level. \nPerhaps there is another passageway connecting Citadel and House Absolute which starts at the \ntop of one of the towers off the Atrium of Time. Hence \"Path of Air.\" Since this pathway goes to \nthe top of one of these towers, it exists in Severian's future. About 60 years in his future, \nI'd say.\n \nSeverian sees the appearances of his mother as Holy Katharine and the woman in the coffin when \nhe is about age 20. But he sees the sobbing woman being escorted by soldiers on the day of the \nFlood, 60 years in his future, when Valeria is about 80. valeria is depicted as an embittered\nold crone, as Autarchia living in the House Absolute. But she was born in the Citadel and was\na resident of an Atrium of Time tower.\n \nI think this implies old Valeria knows about the Path of Air, knows who Catherine is and knows \nthat she is escaping from a death sentence from 60 years in the past. She assigns her soldiers \nto escort her back to her fate of getting her head chopped off every year and/or being throttled \nby Allowin's Necklace allowing Vodalus and his followers to dig her up and eat her. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T16:33:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thecla was important. But perhaps not as important as eating the mother of the \nConciliator/New Sun (which Vodalus may or may not know about. But SOMEBODY in power knows about it). " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They’re not so fussy. It looks like they’ll eat anyone, at a pinch, even if some of them have \npreferences:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A voice I recognized as belonging to the armiger asked, \"Have any of you seen her yet?\" \nThe others had sounded merely boastful, but there was hunger of a kind I had never heard \nbefore behind his simple words. He might have been some lost traveler asking about his home. \n\"No, Waldgrave.\" (Another voice.) \"Alcmund says a good one, not old or too young.\" \"Not another \ntribade, I hope.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your supposition is not supported by the text Gerry. If Vodalus and his followers were happy to\neat anyone, why did they fly all the way down to Nessus and the Necropolis and risk their lives\ngetting that particular body? Surely there are plenty of dead people around Saltus and other \nsurrounding towns they could eat, eh?\n\nMoreover, I've suggested that Vodalus is operating on the commands of someone superior to him. If\nhe doesn't know the significance of their feast choice I see no reason for Waldgrave and Alcmund\nto know them. I find the mention of a tribade (lesbian) to be of significance when it comes to\nSeverian's family. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<248B62762DB84E88A145FFD50267824A@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:01:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thecla was important. But perhaps not as important as eating \nthe mother of the Conciliator/New Sun (which Vodalus may or \nmay not know about. But SOMEBODY in power knows about it). " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They’re not so fussy. It looks like they’ll eat anyone, at a pinch, \neven if some of them have preferences:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A voice I recognized as belonging to the armiger asked, \"Have \nany of you seen her yet?\" The others had sounded merely boastful, \nbut there was hunger of a kind I had never heard before behind \nhis simple words. He might have been some lost traveler asking\nabout his home. \"No, Waldgrave.\" (Another voice.) \"Alcmund says \na good one, not old or too young.\" \"Not another tribade, I hope.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your supposition is not supported by the text Gerry. If Vodalus \nand his followers were happy to eat anyone, why did they fly all the \nway down to Nessus and the Necropolis and risk their lives\ngetting that particular body? Surely there are plenty of dead \npeople around Saltus and other surrounding towns they could eat, eh?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Severian comes to Saltus (though of course it is much later) it is on high alert against the Vodalarii. Maybe it’s easier get corpses from the big city. It could be that in the countryside the graves are close in to town, and better guarded. Or it could be that they eat in part for knowledge, and you can only consume so many yokels without developing an urge for richer fare.\nThe text does clearly indicate, however, that they are not excessively fussy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Moreover, I've suggested that Vodalus is operating on the commands \nof someone superior to him. If he doesn't know the significance of their \nfeast choice I see no reason for Waldgrave and Alcmund to know them. \nI find the mention of a tribade (lesbian) to be of significance when it comes to\nSeverian's family. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vodalus does, of course, know who Thecla is, because Thea does. Given that Thea wants to be there, it seems likely that they do think of it as a sort of communion, and not altogether evil in their eyes. Of course one of the Autarch’s courtesans would be a great prize in terms of knowledge too (later, it helps Severian find his way out of the Antechamber). Is there another reason too? I don’t know, but these seem reasons enough. [Of course, ultimately it may be assumed that Gene Wolfe has ordained that Severian must eat Thecla, whatever the detailed circumstances.]\nAs for the tribade comment, it only made mewonder whether it was a female Vodalarian who brought up the issue. What you think tribades in general, or the particular tribade who was apparently on last week’s menu, have to do with Severian’s family, I have no idea.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA5A4EF.4030401@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-24T17:48:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:23 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think this implies old Valeria knows about the Path of Air, knows who Catherine is and knows\nthat she is escaping from a death sentence from 60 years in the past. She assigns her soldiers\nto escort her back to her fate of getting her head chopped off every year and/or being throttled\nby Allowin's Necklace allowing Vodalus and his followers to dig her up and eat her. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How would she survive being beheaded umpteen times?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T01:50:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes perfect sense to me. Doesnt Sev search for the Atrium from\nabove in a flyer when Auturch? This fits nicely with The Last House\nthat can only be seen and approached from certain angles. And it was\nthe Pelerines (that Catherine belonged to) that sent Sev to Ash with\nvery specific directions to find the Last House. Perhaps the\nPelerines have some connection with the Temporal Obfuscation\ntechnology adherrant to these structures? Perhaps even Mannea herself\nonce inhabited the Atrium and thus knows how said structures are to be\nfound. In response to Jeffs question I seem to remember Sev\nmentioning a trick mechanism and fake severed head being used to\ncreate the illusion of Katherines beheading." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA62154.5060307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T02:39:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine/Carina", "in_reply_to": "<4EA5A4EF.4030401@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I noticed the following line in Talos' play:\n\nFAMILIAR: The Contessa waits outside, and as she is of exalted blood, and a\n\nfavorite of our sovereign's, I beg you see her first.\n\nEnter the CONTESSA.\n\n\n\nThis suggests Sev's mom was a favorite of the Old Autarch's. If so, this \nconfirms for me that Sev only learned/suspected his maternity upon his \nascension.\n\n(1) He only suppresses his knowledge as he writes the Inn of Lost Loves \nscenes because he didn't know it at the time they occurred. He can't be \naccused of hiding it, just of not connecting the dots for his reader. \nHe's being delicate in the narrative because of Dorcas as well and has \nno wish to be cruel to his father. So he leaves the obvious unsaid, even \nfor the reader.\n\n(2) AFAICT, when Sev interrogates Ouen he is only interested in figuring \nout Dorcas. He already suspects that she is much older than she looks, \nand that Ouen is her son. He has no idea Ouen is his father. He only \ninquires about Catherine after he is told he resembles Ouen; he puts 2+2 \ntogether because the Old Autarch knows Catherine but not Ouen. Nor, \npresumably, did the Autarch know about Sev or of twins, or else Sev \nwould know about any Severa. This confirms that the Autarch had no hand \nin any breeding project, but Inire may have.\n\n(3) Sev's motive for not making his parentage clear at the beginning of \nhis story remains one of needing to set up the orphan tale, and it \npersists at the end. It's a genre thing: you can't have \"Chapter 82: In \nWhich Our Hero Finds His Parents\" without changing the tale from \"orphan \nmakes it alone in the world\" to \"orphan finds success and parents.\" In \nfairy tales, plenty of orphans discover their parents, which discovery \ntends to dominate the resolution. BotNS satisfies this technically but \nnot emotionally by passing it by.\n\nNor does Sev go in search of Catherine, because he is sure, as Old \nAutarch and young torturer, that she is dead. Andre-Driussi has some \ngreat ideas about the Atrium of Time, but Catherine's hiding there \ndoesn't work, because Severian would know she still lives. Further, \nwhile Valeria as ancient, frozen child has no real flaws I can see, I \ndon't see the point in a noble family serving the Autarchy for a chiliad \nby ... not even knowing time has passed. Loyalty must mean more than that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA623A0.4090206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T02:49:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 9:50 PM, larry miller wrote:\nThat makes perfect sense to me. Doesnt Sev search for the Atrium from\nabove in a flyer when Auturch? This fits nicely with The Last House\nthat can only be seen and approached from certain angles. And it was\nthe Pelerines (that Catherine belonged to) that sent Sev to Ash with\nvery specific directions to find the Last House. Perhaps the\nPelerines have some connection with the Temporal Obfuscation\ntechnology adherrant to these structures? Perhaps even Mannea herself\nonce inhabited the Atrium and thus knows how said structures are to be\nfound." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would the Pelerines have anything to do with the Atrium of Time?\n\nCatherine had escaped from them---not to them---so why would she go \nthere afterward?\n\nWhat good is a secret that neither we nor the narrator can guess?\n\nWho would have allowed Catherine to escape there when all the signs \npoint to her death by beheading?\n\nSeverian knows the Atrium---why does he run there to marry Valeria \nwithout once stopping by to see his mother?\n\nMannea is yet another Pelerine named after a saint who was beheaded." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T03:07:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<4EA623A0.4090206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: Doesnt Sev search for the Atrium from above in a flyer when Auturch? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWell, he is searching for Valeria's tower. He can't find it. He has to find her by\n\nretracing his steps through the twisting path from the oubilette." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This fits nicely with The Last House that can only be seen and approached from certain " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "angles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Severian tries a short cut by climbing right up the cliff to it. When he reaches the\n\ntop, it isn't there. He has to follow the proper twisting path. I think Mantis \n\n(m. andre-driussi is working on a similar theory, but I beat him to it. Heh)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And it was the Pelerines (that Catherine belonged to) that sent Sev to Ash with\nvery specific directions to find the Last House. Perhaps the Pelerines have some " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "connection with the Temporal Obfuscation technology adherrant to these structures?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think that is very insightful. The Pelerines really might be involved. There are a few\n\nclues that they may be more involved with witches than we might expect. Anyway there is a\n\nmysterious \"Red Tower\" which is not so easy to identify the residents of as the other \n\nmentioned towers. Perhaps this Red Tower is the home of the Pelerines and perhaps this\n\ntower is one of those around the Atrium of Time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In response to Jeffs question I seem to remember Sev\nmentioning a trick mechanism and fake severed head being used to\ncreate the illusion of Katherines beheading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWas Jeff's question about how Catherine can survive being beheaded so many times?\n\nAnyway, yes the trick mechanism is described in detail. Severian can do this because,\n\nas an apprentice, he helped assemble it. He knows how the trick works. Lightweight\n\nwooden sword, wax head, fake blood etc.\n\n \n\nIt was Dave Tallman who noted that when Severian goes to lift this fake sword it is\n\nvery heavy. Also, when he works up the nerve to swing the thing down he seems surprised\n\nto find that the sword meets resistance for a second. It is like most other Wolfe puzzles.\n\nWe can ignore it and just assume Severian is having these perceptual problems because he\n\nis drunk. Or we can start to wonder why WOlfe goes through the trouble to decribe a fake\n\nsword as lightweight then a few paragraphs later tell us the sword Severian used felt very\n\nheavy. \n\n \n\nThis theory is not mine in origin but I think it has merit. I wouldn't think much of it if I \n\ndidn't agree with the puzzle solution that this \"maid\" is Severian's mother. Adding Dave's\n\nobservation that the three maids in the play were all beheaded saint names and it gains even\n\ngreater heft.\n\n \n\nTo answer a question by David Stockhoff, no I don't think this beheading (fake ones or real one)\n\nis part of Catherine's torture sentence. I think the penalty for adultery is strangulation and\n\nin the Citadel, this is accomplished by the guild using Allowin's Necklace. That's why the corpse\n\nhas a \"livid face\". Severian does not have this device in Thrax and thus must use his hands (though\n\nof course he stops before completing the action).\n\n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T03:59:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<4EA623A0.4090206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry I should have worded my post a little better. In every instance\nI use the word Pelerines I should have used Mannea. Therefore maybe\nMannea has a connection with the Atrium of Time.\n My guess as to\nhelped her escape to the Atrium-the Cumaen, who surely knew of\nSeverians destiny and sought to ensure his birth by hiding Catherine\nin the Atrium.\n What secret are you\nreferring to?\n It is not a fact that Catherine\nis the real St Katherine. She just portrays her in the ceremonies.\n\n As to why Severian doesnt visit her after\nbecoming Auturch? Maybe he does and just doesnt write about it. Or\nif she is indeed the woman dug up by Vodalus shes already dead by this\npoint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/11, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/24/2011 9:50 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That makes perfect sense to me. Doesnt Sev search for the Atrium from\nabove in a flyer when Auturch? This fits nicely with The Last House\nthat can only be seen and approached from certain angles. And it was\nthe Pelerines (that Catherine belonged to) that sent Sev to Ash with\nvery specific directions to find the Last House. Perhaps the\nPelerines have some connection with the Temporal Obfuscation\ntechnology adherrant to these structures? Perhaps even Mannea herself\nonce inhabited the Atrium and thus knows how said structures are to be\nfound." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would the Pelerines have anything to do with the Atrium of Time?\n\nCatherine had escaped from them---not to them---so why would she go\nthere afterward?\n\nWhat good is a secret that neither we nor the narrator can guess?\n\nWho would have allowed Catherine to escape there when all the signs\npoint to her death by beheading?\n\nSeverian knows the Atrium---why does he run there to marry Valeria\nwithout once stopping by to see his mother?\n\nMannea is yet another Pelerine named after a saint who was beheaded.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA65B36.1090202@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T06:46:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nIt was Dave Tallman who noted that when Severian goes to lift this fake sword it is\n\nvery heavy. Also, when he works up the nerve to swing the thing down he seems surprised\n\nto find that the sword meets resistance for a second. It is like most other Wolfe puzzles.\n\nWe can ignore it and just assume Severian is having these perceptual problems because he\n\nis drunk. Or we can start to wonder why WOlfe goes through the trouble to decribe a fake\n\nsword as lightweight then a few paragraphs later tell us the sword Severian used felt very\n\nheavy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He doesn't drink until after the ceremony, so drunkeneness doesn't cut \nit. It could be just straight nerves, I recall being similarly warped in \nmy perceptions on my wedding day, the slender metal band was heavy as an \ningot. Severian's elevation is his wedding day piled atop graduation and \n21st birthday." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To answer a question by David Stockhoff, no I don't think this beheading (fake ones or real one)\n\nis part of Catherine's torture sentence. I think the penalty for adultery is strangulation and\n\nin the Citadel, this is accomplished by the guild using Allowin's Necklace. That's why the corpse\n\nhas a \"livid face\". Severian does not have this device in Thrax and thus must use his hands (though\n\nof course he stops before completing the action)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the beheading isn't part of Catherine's sentence, how are they \nallowed to do it? It is repeated several times that they may not \nincrease or lessen the penalties of their clients. If it is just a stage \nbeheading, why not have anyone do it? They could hire it done, or have \nan apprentice in drag play the martyr.\n\nI am thinking perhaps there is a double illusion: he is not given a real \nsword nor just a wooden prop, but something that still draws real blood \nfrom real flesh without being fatal. The business with the head and the \nfuligin drape are as read, but the chrism is true. The hesitation would \nbe because he detects something amiss even beyond his nerves." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA69AA0.9080600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T11:16:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nI think that is very insightful. The Pelerines really might be involved. There are a few\n\nclues that they may be more involved with witches than we might expect. Anyway there is a\n\nmysterious \"Red Tower\" which is not so easy to identify the residents of as the other\n\nmentioned towers. Perhaps this Red Tower is the home of the Pelerines and perhaps this\n\ntower is one of those around the Atrium of Time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly the Pelerines are a good candidate to occupy the Red Tower. \nEveryone in the Citadel is a relic of a past age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To answer a question by David Stockhoff, no I don't think this \nbeheading (fake ones or real one) is part of Catherine's torture \nsentence. I think the penalty for adultery is strangulation and in the \nCitadel, this is accomplished by the guild using Allowin's Necklace. \nThat's why the corpse has a \"livid face\". Severian does not have this \ndevice in Thrax and thus must use his hands (though of course he stops \nbefore completing the action)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree about adultery and strangulation by whatever means. But I may be \nconfused about something. As I understand it, you believe Katharine, who \nwas beheaded, to be Catherine, who was strangled. Right?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6AA08.4030001@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T12:22:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/24/2011 11:59 PM, larry miller wrote:\nSorry I should have worded my post a little better. In every instance\nI use the word Pelerines I should have used Mannea. Therefore maybe\nMannea has a connection with the Atrium of Time.\n My guess as to\nhelped her escape to the Atrium-the Cumaen, who surely knew of\nSeverians destiny and sought to ensure his birth by hiding Catherine\nin the Atrium.\n What secret are you\nreferring to?\n It is not a fact that Catherine\nis the real St Katherine. She just portrays her in the ceremonies.\n\n As to why Severian doesnt visit her after\nbecoming Auturch? Maybe he does and just doesnt write about it. Or\nif she is indeed the woman dug up by Vodalus shes already dead by this\npoint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a theory that the Other Lords tried to kill Dorcas, putting her \nin a coma at Ouen's birth. An intervention in the opposite direction \nmakes sense as part of that theory. But why the Cumaean?\n\nThe secret I refer to is the Atrium and Catherine as its refugee. Do you \nthink she is dead?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6AA5B.9000304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T12:23:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<4EA65B36.1090202@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/25/2011 2:46 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nIf the beheading isn't part of Catherine's sentence, how are they \nallowed to do it? It is repeated several times that they may not \nincrease or lessen the penalties of their clients. If it is just a \nstage beheading, why not have anyone do it? They could hire it done, \nor have an apprentice in drag play the martyr.\n\nI am thinking perhaps there is a double illusion: he is not given a \nreal sword nor just a wooden prop, but something that still draws real \nblood from real flesh without being fatal. The business with the head \nand the fuligin drape are as read, but the chrism is true. The \nhesitation would be because he detects something amiss even beyond his \nnerves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All I can tell is that beheading was Katharine's sentence, not Catherine's." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T12:40:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine/Carina", "in_reply_to": "<4EA62154.5060307@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: \nThis suggests Sev's mom was a favorite of the Old Autarch's. If so, this \nconfirms for me that Sev only learned/suspected his maternity upon his \nascension.\n(1) He only suppresses his knowledge as he writes the Inn of Lost Loves \nscenes because he didn't know it at the time they occurred. He can't be \naccused of hiding it, just of not connecting the dots for his reader. \nHe's being delicate in the narrative because of Dorcas as well and has \nno wish to be cruel to his father. So he leaves the obvious unsaid, even \nfor the reader.\n(2) AFAICT, when Sev interrogates Ouen he is only interested in figuring \nout Dorcas. He already suspects that she is much older than she looks, \nand that Ouen is her son. He has no idea Ouen is his father. He only \ninquires about Catherine after he is told he resembles Ouen; he puts 2+2 \ntogether because the Old Autarch knows Catherine but not Ouen. Nor, \npresumably, did the Autarch know about Sev or of twins, or else Sev \nwould know about any Severa. This confirms that the Autarch had no hand \nin any breeding project, but Inire may have." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent insight in identifying Severian's motivation of going to Ouen\nas one of his first acts after becoming autarch (and acquiring the \nmemories). And good catch in noting Contessa Carina as one of the autarch's\nfavorites. All in all a great analysis! \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-25T13:16:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<4EA6AA5B.9000304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Why would the Pelerines have anything to do with the Atrium of Time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, if I understand Larry correctly, Severian is guided to the Last House by a\nPelerine (or Mannea, specifically). The Last House is the same sort of time structure \nas the towers around the Atrium of Time. Perhaps the Pelerines are familiar with such\nstructures because they inhabit one at the Citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who would have allowed Catherine to escape there when all the signs \npoint to her death by beheading?\nSeverian knows the Atrium---why does he run there to marry Valeria \nwithout once stopping by to see his mother?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as you say later, beheading is not Catherine's sentence, it is Holy Katharine's\n(and only because breaking her on the wheel didn't work). But I agree with you that\nCatherine, Severian's birth mother is probably dead and that Severian himself knows\nthis. But there may be some copies of her floating around still. There is a dream\nsequence of Thecla as a little girl seeking...someone...among a room of like-looking \nwomen. Perhaps this dream applies as much to Severian as Thecla." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: As to why Severian doesnt visit her after\nbecoming Auturch? Maybe he does and just doesnt write about it. Or\nif she is indeed the woman dug up by Vodalus shes already dead by this\npoint." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree most with the last sentence. The appearance Catherine makes toward the very \nend of this story shows her weeping and apparently being escorted to somewhere she\ndoesn't want to go. She is wearing a pale gown as is the woman in the grave at the\nvery beginning of the story. I can't believe Wolfe would bookend his masterpiece with\ntwo dark-haired women in pale gowns unless it was meant to be very significant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If the beheading isn't part of Catherine's sentence, how are they \nallowed to do it? It is repeated several times that they may not \nincrease or lessen the penalties of their clients. If it is just a stage \nbeheading, why not have anyone do it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm confused by this question. It is supposed to be a stage act. They can't let just\nanyone do it because it is part of the ritual of elevation to journeyman." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I agree about adultery and strangulation by whatever means. But I may \nbe confused about something. As I understand it, you believe Katharine, who \nwas beheaded, to be Catherine, who was strangled. Right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt is Dave Tallman's theory but I kind of like it (actually I may have distorted his\noriginal version). I think the idea is that every year the maid playing Holy Katharine\nis mock-beheaded. Heck if there are multiple journeyman, she might be mock-beheaded a few\ntimes in one night. Is it the same maid every year, or a succession of khaibits? I dunno.\n \nAnyway, when it is Severian's turn he happens to be alone in elevation. \nThe sword feels heavy, like a real sword and it encounters some surprise resistance in\nthe downstroke as though it had to sever a vertebral column rather than just trip a\ndevice to release a wax head.\n \nBut of course, the Holy Katharine maid is okay afterwards. So perhaps this mock-beheading\nwas a real one and the second (after Triskele) example of Severian's resurection powers at\nwork. The idea is that the real beheading was set up as a test of his power. (if the maid\nknew about this she is amazingly confident that Severian will succeed in resurrecting her\n\"Strike and fear not!\".\n \nThis theory is a little more shaky than some of the other ones I like, but I still like it.\nThe woman in the grave is dead before Severian's elevation so I think there is at least one\nspare copy of Catherine available to step in after her death. (or maybe Severian's real mother\nnever played Holy Katharine, only her clone. I dunno.)\n \nEither way, I think Severian's mother was imprisoned in the Citadel, in a cell, nursing Severian\nas he remembers, and awaiting her sentence of strangulation. Maybe she played Holy Katharine for\na while, maybe she didn't. But for some reason she escaped, using one of the towers near the \nAtrium of Time and ended up 60 years in the future. At the end of the story, Valeria sends her \nback to face her executionand the time she popped back out from the tower happened to be when our \nstory begins. What the relationship between valeria and Catherine is, I don't know. But it is \nsomething.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA6BE41.50305@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-25T13:48:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Catherine/Carina", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/25/2011 8:40 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff:\nThis suggests Sev's mom was a favorite of the Old Autarch's. If so, this\nconfirms for me that Sev only learned/suspected his maternity upon his\nascension.\n(1) He only suppresses his knowledge as he writes the Inn of Lost Loves\nscenes because he didn't know it at the time they occurred. He can't be\naccused of hiding it, just of not connecting the dots for his reader.\nHe's being delicate in the narrative because of Dorcas as well and has\nno wish to be cruel to his father. So he leaves the obvious unsaid, even\nfor the reader.\n(2) AFAICT, when Sev interrogates Ouen he is only interested in figuring\nout Dorcas. He already suspects that she is much older than she looks,\nand that Ouen is her son. He has no idea Ouen is his father. He only\ninquires about Catherine after he is told he resembles Ouen; he puts 2+2\ntogether because the Old Autarch knows Catherine but not Ouen. Nor,\npresumably, did the Autarch know about Sev or of twins, or else Sev\nwould know about any Severa. This confirms that the Autarch had no hand\nin any breeding project, but Inire may have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Excellent insight in identifying Severian's motivation of going to Ouen\nas one of his first acts after becoming autarch (and acquiring the\nmemories). And good catch in noting Contessa Carina as one of the autarch's\nfavorites. All in all a great analysis!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should note (if I didn't) that the Old Autarch would also know of \nCatherine's execution, assuming she was, as he would probably have been \nthe one to judge her. I base this on hints that the Autarch judged all \ncases brought at court, including discussion in the audience at Talos' play." } ] } ] }