{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6085", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6085, "subject": "Horns abilities", "messages": 40, "voices": 7, "first": "2011-10-26T11:40:30+00:00", "last": "2011-10-27T12:58:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T11:40:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get inside and change the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA7F4F3.1050200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T11:54:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "larry miller wrote (26-10-2011 12:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get inside and change the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must be losing it - I knew the answer to this question and I can't recall it.\n\nAlso, does anyone remeber the part where dream Fava wants to know where the \nkitchen is? I also knew perfectly why she did - and can't recall it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7FE3FB5D-D478-4A04-BD15-A32B808432E8@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T13:23:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dream travel is time travel. Remember Pike's ghost?\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller wrote:\nCan anyone tell me why Horn is able to get inside and change the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T13:35:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<7FE3FB5D-D478-4A04-BD15-A32B808432E8@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that, even if it were true, has anything to do with it.\n\nNo dia 2011/10/26, ?s 14:23, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dream travel is time travel. Remember Pike's ghost?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get inside and change the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319640969.62175.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T14:56:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<7FE3FB5D-D478-4A04-BD15-A32B808432E8@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:23 AM\nDream travel is time travel. Remember\nPike's ghost?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get inside and\nchange the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My position, too. For sure. and I rather like the little doll in the dreams as mucor teaming up with fava spirit (or whoever is dead).\n\nDream travel is definitely time travel. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:04:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<1319640969.62175.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's the deal with it being semi-physical? Is it 'out of body' even\nthough you can physically influence stuff in the place you 'go' to? It's\none of the weirdest things I've ever seen (because it's not as simple as\ntime travel on one hand or visions on the other, etc.). And Wolfe's\nintroduction and development of it narratively (especially in In Green's\nJungles) is one of the most jaw-dropping, mind-bending experiences I've had\nin reading.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n--- On Wed, 10/26/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:23 AM\nDream travel is time travel. Remember\nPike's ghost?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get inside and\nchange the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My position, too. For sure. and I rather like the little doll in the\ndreams as mucor teaming up with fava spirit (or whoever is dead).\n\nDream travel is definitely time travel.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA822AF.9050907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:09:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<1319640969.62175.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (26-10-2011 15:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:23 AM\nDream travel is time travel. Remember\nPike's ghost?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get inside and\nchange the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My position, too. For sure. and I rather like the little doll in the dreams as mucor teaming up with fava spirit (or whoever is dead).\n\nDream travel is definitely time travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It can't be 'definitely' since there's no consensus, but *even if it were*, \nhow does dream travel account for Incanto inserting himself into the stories \nwhile they're being told, *to the knowledge* of the storytellers?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319641940.35965.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:12:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA822AF.9050907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 8:09 AM\nMarc Aramini wrote (26-10-2011\n15:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, James Wynn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:23 AM\nDream travel is time travel. Remember\nPike's ghost?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get\ninside and\nchange the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My position, too. For sure. and I rather\nlike the little doll in the dreams as mucor teaming up with\nfava spirit (or whoever is dead).\n\nDream travel is definitely time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It can't be 'definitely' since there's no consensus, but\n*even if it were*, \nhow does dream travel account for Incanto inserting himself\ninto the stories \nwhile they're being told, *to the knowledge* of the\nstorytellers?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319642038.21483.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:13:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA822AF.9050907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 8:09 AM\nMarc Aramini wrote (26-10-2011\n15:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, James Wynn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:23 AM\nDream travel is time travel. Remember\nPike's ghost?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get\ninside and\nchange the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My position, too. For sure. and I rather\nlike the little doll in the dreams as mucor teaming up with\nfava spirit (or whoever is dead).\n\nDream travel is definitely time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It can't be 'definitely' since there's no consensus, but\n*even if it were*, \nhow does dream travel account for Incanto inserting himself\ninto the stories \nwhile they're being told, *to the knowledge* of the\nstorytellers?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA82406.606@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:15:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<1319641940.35965.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (26-10-2011 16:12):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 8:09 AM\nMarc Aramini wrote (26-10-2011\n15:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, James Wynn\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:23 AM\nDream travel is time travel. Remember\nPike's ghost?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get\ninside and\nchange the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My position, too. For sure. and I rather\nlike the little doll in the dreams as mucor teaming up with\nfava spirit (or whoever is dead).\n\nDream travel is definitely time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It can't be 'definitely' since there's no consensus, but\n*even if it were*,\nhow does dream travel account for Incanto inserting himself\ninto the stories\nwhile they're being told, *to the knowledge* of the\nstorytellers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bill and Ted stuff, he hears the story and makes a decision to leave the trash can where it can fall in a few minutes or later that night." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'll have to elaborate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA8243C.7000605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:16:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<1319642038.21483.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (26-10-2011 16:13):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 8:09 AM\nMarc Aramini wrote (26-10-2011\n15:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, James Wynn\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: James Wynn\nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\nDate: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:23 AM\nDream travel is time travel. Remember\nPike's ghost?\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get\ninside and\nchange the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My position, too. For sure. and I rather\nlike the little doll in the dreams as mucor teaming up with\nfava spirit (or whoever is dead).\n\nDream travel is definitely time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It can't be 'definitely' since there's no consensus, but\n*even if it were*,\nhow does dream travel account for Incanto inserting himself\ninto the stories\nwhile they're being told, *to the knowledge* of the\nstorytellers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "consensus doesn't matter for definitely. I hate to say it but it's true. The earth is definitely not entirely flat whether we all agree or not. I am definitely not bald even if you think I am or might be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I chose the word 'consensus' precisely because it doesn't mean 'unanimity'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319642471.36040.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:21:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA8243C.7000605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nI chose the word 'consensus' precisely because it doesn't\nmean 'unanimity'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Bill and Ted, a garbage nonsense movie, their ability to influence the course of events is absurdly \"ghost in the machine\" type stuff. They need help out of a tight spot so they simple say stuff like, \"Let's not forget to provide for that eventuality and aid ourselves later by coming back in time and fixing it.\" Then, they are instantly aided. \n\nThe system of cause and effect is reversed and undermined, and I think the same thing is ocurring in the Wolfe story. And I'm telling you it's definitely time travel related in one fashion whether anyone on earth except one or three other men agree with me or not, that's all there is to it. A woman knows the child is hers, a man has faith that it is. That's all I want to say on it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA82798.5050206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:30:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA8243C.7000605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Dream travel is definitely time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It can't be 'definitely' since there's no consensus, but\n*even if it were*,\nhow does dream travel account for Incanto inserting himself\ninto the stories\nwhile they're being told, *to the knowledge* of the\nstorytellers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "consensus doesn't matter for definitely. I hate to say it but it's \ntrue. The earth is definitely not entirely flat whether we all agree \nor not. I am definitely not bald even if you think I am or might be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I chose the word 'consensus' precisely because it doesn't mean \n'unanimity'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the 14th century, the Earth definitely revolved around the Sun even \nif only Copernicus said so.\n\nThere is simply no other reasonable explanation, given the context, for \nPike's sparkly disapperating ghost and the astral flying Oreb Silk also \nmeets upstairs at a time when Oreb's wing is damaged.\nCombine that with Rajan appearing in the grandmother's tale, and the \ntimelines not matching for when Horn left, Hide left, Hoof left, and the \nages of Sinew's sons -- well, dream-travel is time travel.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:51:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA82798.5050206@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'There is simply no other reasonable explanation, given the context, for\nPike's sparkly disapperating ghost'\n\nDoes 'reasonable' here = naturalistic? Are we not allowing for any 'real'\n(traditionally construed - i.e. spirits of the dead) ghosts in Wolfe's\ncycle? (Or is there something about the context you mention that requires a\nnon-supernatural account in this particular case?)\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA82DBB.5000806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:56:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:51 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\n'There is simply no other reasonable explanation, given the context, \nfor Pike's sparkly disapperating ghost'\n\nDoes 'reasonable' here = naturalistic? Are we not allowing for any \n'real' (traditionally construed - i.e. spirits of the dead) ghosts in \nWolfe's cycle? (Or is there something about the context you mention \nthat requires a non-supernatural account in this particular case?)\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not give the subsequent appearance of astral Oreb.\n\nOtherwise, I'd accept the appearance as a Gothic-style ghost, although a \nweird one. When such ghosts appear they don't typically wave like a \ntourist at Disneyland. Nor disappear like James T. Kirk being beamed up.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA82E07.6050207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:57:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > On Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller >\n > wrote:\n > > Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get inside and\n > change the\n > > stories being told in In Greens Jungles?\n > > _______________________________________________\n\n > From: James Wynn >\n > Subject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities\n > To: \"The Urth Mailing List\" >\n > Date: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 6:23 AM\n > Dream travel is time travel. Remember\n > Pike's ghost?\n\n Marc Aramini wrote:\n My position, too. For sure. and I rather like the little doll in\n the dreams as mucor teaming up with fava spirit (or whoever is\n dead). Dream travel is definitely time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:04 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:\nWhat's the deal with it being semi-physical? Is it 'out of body' even \nthough you can physically influence stuff in the place you 'go' to? \nIt's one of the weirdest things I've ever seen (because it's not as \nsimple as time travel on one hand or visions on the other, etc.). And \nWolfe's introduction and development of it narratively (especially in \nIn Green's Jungles) is one of the most jaw-dropping, mind-bending \nexperiences I've had in reading.\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are disembodied spirits (ghosts, if you will) with bodies fashioned \nfrom \"dream-stuff\". Thus they can die in dream-travel and their bodies \nremain. Their bodies that they left, are not killed in that case, but \nare left senseless and souless. If your sleeping body dies in dream-travel,\n\n-----------------\n\"Do you recall how, when you were hardly more than a boy, I taught you \nthe art by which we flesh sons from dream stuff?\"\n[...]\n\"For though he did not know why, being of the stuff of dreams he was\ndrawn to her; and she, whose eyes held starlight, to him.\"\nChapter 17, Claw of the Concilliator" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:01:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA82DBB.5000806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great, thanks for that clarification. My evidential assessment of your\nposition will have to await my re-read of Long Sun, but I now see the\nanalytic validity of your view. It seems a fair enough line of reasoning.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 4:56 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 10/26/2011 10:51 AM, Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'There is simply no other reasonable explanation, given the context, for\nPike's sparkly disapperating ghost'\n\nDoes 'reasonable' here = naturalistic? Are we not allowing for any 'real'\n(traditionally construed - i.e. spirits of the dead) ghosts in Wolfe's\ncycle? (Or is there something about the context you mention that requires a\nnon-supernatural account in this particular case?)\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not give the subsequent appearance of astral Oreb.\n\nOtherwise, I'd accept the appearance as a Gothic-style ghost, although a\nweird one. When such ghosts appear they don't typically wave like a tourist\nat Disneyland. Nor disappear like James T. Kirk being beamed up.\n\nJ.\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:13:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA82E07.6050207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*They are disembodied spirits (ghosts, if you will) with bodies fashioned\nfrom \"dream-stuff\". Thus they can die in dream-travel and their bodies\nremain. Their bodies that they left, are not killed in that case, but are\nleft senseless and souless. If your sleeping body dies in dream-travel,\n\n-----------------\n\"Do you recall how, when you were hardly more than a boy, I taught you the\nart by which we flesh sons from dream stuff?\"\n[...]\n\"For though he did not know why, being of the stuff of dreams he was\ndrawn to her; and she, whose eyes held starlight, to him.\"\nChapter 17, Claw of the Concilliator*\n\n\n\nGreat connections with the quotes from Claw! It still looks slightly more\ncomplicated and mysterious than just this though. For example, Horn can\nform a sword from dream stuff apparently and then actually cut physical\nthings on Green with it. It's one thing for a ghost to throw plates that\nbreak. But it's another for the ghost to form a dream-plate or spirit-plate\nand the plate manages to leave a shiner on the eye of the person hit by it.\n(Even though eventually no other evidence of the plate's existence will\nremain.)\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 4:57 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Oct 26, 2011, at 6:40 AM, larry miller \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Can anyone tell me why Horn is able to get inside and\nchange the\nstories being told in In Greens Jungles?\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Horns abilities" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA833D3.9040201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:22:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<1319642471.36040.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (26-10-2011 16:21):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I chose the word 'consensus' precisely because it doesn't mean\n'unanimity'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Bill and Ted, a garbage nonsense movie, their ability to influence the\ncourse of events is absurdly \"ghost in the machine\" type stuff. They\nneed help out of a tight spot so they simple say stuff like, \"Let's not\nforget to provide for that eventuality and aid ourselves later by coming\nback in time and fixing it.\" Then, they are instantly aided." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That still doesn't explain the scene at the dinner table. Should Incanto \n'dream travel' into the original setting of stories at some point (either \nbefore, during, or after they're being told) (a thing for which there isn't \nany evidence at all), the storytellers wouldn't be able to tell he had done so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The system of cause and effect is reversed and undermined, and I think\nthe same thing is ocurring in the Wolfe story. And I'm telling you it's\ndefinitely time travel related in one fashion whether anyone on earth\nexcept one or three other men agree with me or not, that's all there is\nto it. A woman knows the child is hers, a man has faith that it is.\nThat's all I want to say on it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are two separate issues here:\n\n- whether it is definite for you\n- whether it is consensual\n\nYes, it may be definite for you; however, for you to say it is definite, not\nqualified explicitly or by context, and not expect others to complain, it\nalso has to be consensual." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA83525.6020604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:28:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA82798.5050206@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (26-10-2011 16:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Dream travel is definitely time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It can't be 'definitely' since there's no consensus, but\n*even if it were*,\nhow does dream travel account for Incanto inserting himself\ninto the stories\nwhile they're being told, *to the knowledge* of the\nstorytellers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "consensus doesn't matter for definitely. I hate to say it but it's true.\nThe earth is definitely not entirely flat whether we all agree or not. I\nam definitely not bald even if you think I am or might be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I chose the word 'consensus' precisely because it doesn't mean 'unanimity'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the 14th century, the Earth definitely revolved around the Sun even if\nonly Copernicus said so.\n\nThere is simply no other reasonable explanation, given the context, for\nPike's sparkly disapperating ghost and the astral flying Oreb Silk also\nmeets upstairs at a time when Oreb's wing is damaged.\nCombine that with Rajan appearing in the grandmother's tale, and the\ntimelines not matching for when Horn left, Hide left, Hoof left, and the\nages of Sinew's sons -- well, dream-travel is time travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've already assumed for the sake of discussion that time travel is \navailable to Incanto. I still don't see how it allows him to manipulate the \nstories. Yes, it may explain his presence in the grandmother's (but then \nagain, that's about the most convincing evidence for time travel, so if it \ncan have a different explanation then there goes the evidence), but not the \nothers, nor the fact that they notice they're being manipulated." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:28:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA833D3.9040201@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nShould Incanto\n'dream travel' into the original setting of stories at some point (either\nbefore, during, or after they're being told) (a thing for which there isn't\nany evidence at all), the storytellers wouldn't be able to tell he had done\nso." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmmm.\n\nIt seems to me that Wolfe is deliberately posing a dilemma about\nmemory (and time-travel) with Incanto's dream-travel. When he changes\nsomething in someone's past, they remember it both the \"new\" way and\nthe \"old\" way. Now, if he \"really\" changed the past, they should\nremember it \"only\" the \"new\" way -- the \"old\" way now always never\nhappened. But if he doesn't, then what is he changing? \"Only\" the\nmemories of the person telling the story? Yet, the changes seem to\nhave \"real\" consequences; and, again, if he really _changed_ their\nmemories, they should not remember the pre-change version. Or should\nthey?\n\nI believe that the point here is that this is something that can\n_only_ happen in a text...and a text of a particular kind (Postmodern\nSF) at that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA837BE.3040003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:39:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (26-10-2011 17:28):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Should Incanto\n'dream travel' into the original setting of stories at some point (either\nbefore, during, or after they're being told) (a thing for which there isn't\nany evidence at all), the storytellers wouldn't be able to tell he had done\nso." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummmmm.\n\nIt seems to me that Wolfe is deliberately posing a dilemma about\nmemory (and time-travel) with Incanto's dream-travel. When he changes\nsomething in someone's past, they remember it both the \"new\" way and\nthe \"old\" way. Now, if he \"really\" changed the past, they should\nremember it \"only\" the \"new\" way -- the \"old\" way now always never\nhappened. But if he doesn't, then what is he changing? \"Only\" the\nmemories of the person telling the story? Yet, the changes seem to\nhave \"real\" consequences; and, again, if he really _changed_ their\nmemories, they should not remember the pre-change version. Or should\nthey?\n\nI believe that the point here is that this is something that can\n_only_ happen in a text...and a text of a particular kind (Postmodern\nSF) at that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's be economical. They're telling stories. The stories set off as \nbiographical, but there's no reason they must remain accurate. Just because \nthey insert some character into a story they're telling which started off as \nbiographical, it doesn't follow that they think the characater really \nexisted in their lives. If I tell some story about my childhood and at some \npoint put Kirsten Dunst in it, it doesn't follow that I suddenly think \nKirsten Dunst was part of my childhood." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:40:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*I believe that the point here is that this is something that can\n_only_ happen in a text...and a text of a particular kind (Postmodern\nSF) at that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes*\n\n\nI suspect with Catholic supernatural realists like Wolfe, R. A. Lafferty,\nand Tim Powers, you have to be careful not to limit super-temporal or\nsuper-physical phenomena to the text only. I bet they think 'real'\n(extralinguistic) life is at least as weird as the weirdest text ever\nwritten and probably more so. You never know when a theological theme may\nbe lurking near (among other sorts). As Tolkien famously remarked: 'It\ndoes not do to leave a live [theological] dragon **out of your calculations,\nif you live near him.'\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:42:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA837BE.3040003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nLet's be economical. They're telling stories. The stories set off as\nbiographical, but there's no reason they must remain accurate. Just because\nthey insert some character into a story they're telling which started off as\nbiographical, it doesn't follow that they think the characater really\nexisted in their lives. If I tell some story about my childhood and at some\npoint put Kirsten Dunst in it, it doesn't follow that I suddenly think\nKirsten Dunst was part of my childhood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if you tell a story about your childhood, and _someone else_\ncauses you to put Kirsten Dunst into it, and afterwards you remember\nKirsten Dunst being a part of it ... well, that's a different\nkettle-o'-fish entirely." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:45:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Daniel Petersen\n wrote:\nI suspect with Catholic supernatural realists like Wolfe, R. A. Lafferty,\nand Tim Powers, you have to be careful not to limit super-temporal or\nsuper-physical phenomena to the text only. I bet they think 'real'\n(extralinguistic) life is at least as weird as the weirdest text ever\nwritten and probably more so. You never know when a theological theme may\nbe lurking near (among other sorts). As Tolkien famously remarked: 'It\ndoes not do to leave a live [theological] dragon out of your calculations,\nif you live near him.'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, a fair point here. But in a story that is so much about the\ntelling of stories, something of the nature of storytelling seems to\nbe part of the story.\n\nI agree with what you think Wolfe etc. think -- that is, I think that\nreality is not only queerer than we think, it's queerer than we are\ncapable of thinking (or writing) about. But I _also_ think that there\nare some things that are artifacts of writing and are possible only in\ntexts (though I mean much more by \"write\" and \"text\" than you probably\nthink: as Frere Derrida says, we are never outside of the text)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA83984.9040709@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:47:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (26-10-2011 17:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let's be economical. They're telling stories. The stories set off as\nbiographical, but there's no reason they must remain accurate. Just because\nthey insert some character into a story they're telling which started off as\nbiographical, it doesn't follow that they think the characater really\nexisted in their lives. If I tell some story about my childhood and at some\npoint put Kirsten Dunst in it, it doesn't follow that I suddenly think\nKirsten Dunst was part of my childhood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if you tell a story about your childhood, and _someone else_\ncauses you to put Kirsten Dunst into it, and afterwards you remember\nKirsten Dunst being a part of it ... well, that's a different\nkettle-o'-fish entirely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but we're missing the 'afterwards you remember Kirsten Dunst being a \npart of it' part. It may be there, but I don't remember it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:56:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n...something of the nature of storytelling seems to\nbe part of the story*\n\nOh yes, definitely. The supernatural realism and concern with stories and\nstorytelling are not at all mutually exclusive - in fact, they're pretty\nmuch guaranteed to be inextricably bound together for Wolfe.\n\n*...reality is not only queerer than we think, it's queerer than we are\ncapable of thinking (or writing) about. But I _also_ think that there\nare some things that are artifacts of writing and are possible only in\ntexts (though I mean much more by \"write\" and \"text\" than you probably\nthink: as Frere Derrida says, we are never outside of the text).*\n\nI won't pretend to completely understand the metaphysical view you're\nalluding to without a lengthy discussion over some pints, but I think I'm\nsympathetic to one degree or another. The Catholic writers (and other\nnon-reductionist writers) aren't committed to a view of reality that knows\nno difference between text and world. It's just that we are best to bet\nthere's usually an open door of possibility for even the wildest phenomena\nof the text to be extra-textual phenomena too.\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T17:05:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote:\nThe Catholic writers (and other\nnon-reductionist writers) aren't committed to a view of reality that knows\nno difference between text and world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember that for us (I too am an adult convert to Catholicism, among\nother things) the wor(l)d was spoken -- is in itself a kind of text.\nThe Word of God was made flesh, and indeed has its point-of-origin in\nsome sense in the flesh; it is always already _incarnate_ (i.e., not\nmerely spoken but written). The spoken word of God is the Act of\nCreation: Let there be and there was ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's just that we are best to bet\nthere's usually an open door of possibility for even the wildest phenomena\nof the text to be extra-textual phenomena too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I am saying is that there _are_ no extra-textual phenomena: all\nphenomena are in some sense textual. I think that to understand what\nWolfe is doing here we must understand not only the textuality of the\ntext but the _radical_ textuality of the \"internal\" reality of his\nstories.\n\nAlso, Wolfe messes with unreliable narrators. Now, when a narrator\ninside a story told by an unreliable narrator tells a story, is that\nstory (and that narrator) reliable? Why or why not? What _is_ there\nfor us to interpret, but the text and its intertextuality?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319649635.45135.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T17:20:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA833D3.9040201@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Wed, 10/26/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nThere are two separate issues here:\n\n- whether it is definite for you\n- whether it is consensual\n\nYes, it may be definite for you; however, for you to say it\nis definite, not\nqualified explicitly or by context, and not expect others\nto complain, it\nalso has to be consensual." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't expect consensus anymore (it's not useful at all when discussing Wolfe), but I do believe in absolute truth. Complaints are simply not relevant in this particular case, for a lot of reasons, not necessarily explicit but neither entirely non-contextual. I would like to bury it there. \n\nComplaining and gnashing of teeth cannot unmake reality, unless Silk is meddling in these posts." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T17:29:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*I too am an adult convert to Catholicism, among\nother things*\n\nYou've converted as an adult to other religions as well? Heh, heh, just\njokin'.\n\n*the wor(l)d was spoken -- is in itself a kind of text.\nThe Word of God was made flesh, and indeed has its point-of-origin in\nsome sense in the flesh; it is always already _incarnate_ (i.e., not\nmerely spoken but written). The spoken word of God is the Act of\nCreation*\n\nWell, I admit I didn't expect you to go there, but, yeah, if we're talking\nabout a Logos-cosmos when we say things like 'the world is text' or what\nhave you, then I'm right there with you. That's the metaphysics I think\nWolfe brings to his craft - and the craft is richer for it in my opinion.\n\n(Incidentally, I accept such a worldview as well, though not myself RC - a\nlowly Proddy I'm afraid - we can't seem to make any great authors of our own\nso we are ever the barnacles on the great RC writers - though I'm proud to\nsteal a ride from such legendary vessels as Chesterton, Wolfe, O'Connor,\nPercy, Lafferty, etc.)\n\n*I think that to understand what\nWolfe is doing here we must understand not only the textuality of the\ntext but the _radical_ textuality of the \"internal\" reality of his\nstories.*\n\nDon't think I understand this bit.\n\n*What _is_ there\nfor us to interpret, but the text and its intertextuality?*\n\nI'm not sure Wolfe ever gets so far down inside a narratological rat's nest\nthat he or we can never emerge. From interviews I'd say he definitely\nenvisions us going all the way through the labyrinth and out again,\nbewildered and humbled, yes, but also wiser and nobler. We readers have a\nhard time trusting him about this and even wonder if it's just one more lie,\nI think. But I have to say, without any thought as to whether I ever\nunderstand even a small percent of the intertextual mysteries he delivers, I\ndo trust his face-value claim that he's not just trying to irretrievably\nconfuse his readers. (I'm not saying this because I think you, Dan'l,\nmistrust Wolfe's claim - I don't know one way or the other. It just occurs\nto me in thinking of being potentially locked only into his 'internal'\ntext.)\n\nI guess I mean that I don't think unreliability is the last word in Wolfe,\neven though he has made such extensive use of it.\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T18:09:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote:\nI too am an adult convert to Catholicism, among\nother things" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've converted as an adult to other religions as well? Heh, heh, just\njokin'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Other philosophies, to be sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I admit I didn't expect you to go there, but, yeah, if we're talking\nabout a Logos-cosmos when we say things like 'the world is text' or what\nhave you, then I'm right there with you. That's the metaphysics I think\nWolfe brings to his craft - and the craft is richer for it in my opinion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Incidentally, I accept such a worldview as well, though not myself RC - a\nlowly Proddy I'm afraid - we can't seem to make any great authors of our own\nso we are ever the barnacles on the great RC writers - though I'm proud to\nsteal a ride from such legendary vessels as Chesterton, Wolfe, O'Connor,\nPercy, Lafferty, etc.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, but! You have such giants as LaHaye and Jenkins!\n\n(Ducking and running...)\n\nSeriously, there are some pretty darn good Protestant writers,\nstarting with Lewis and Williams (though they're both pretty\nhigh-church, in Williams's case so high it's basically Catholic Lite)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that to understand what\nWolfe is doing here we must understand not only the textuality of the\ntext but the _radical_ textuality of the \"internal\" reality of his\nstories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't think I understand this bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I am saying is that inside the text there is nothing but more\ntext. If there is anything \"extra-textual,\" it is what _we_ bring to\nthe text. (\"Behind our efforts, let there be found our efforts.\") The\ntext is composed of signifiers, which (can) signify only because they\nare part of the web (_textus_) of other signifiers that constitutes\nthe text. As above, so below: the text is fractally textual, when you\ndig down into it you find the structure of the larger text, repeated\nto infinity (or as close to infinity as a human creator can manage)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What _is_ there\nfor us to interpret, but the text and its intertextuality?\n\nI'm not sure Wolfe ever gets so far down inside a narratological rat's nest\nthat he or we can never emerge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What would it mean to \"emerge\"? To emerge from Wolfe's text is merely\nto return to the larger textus of \"reality,\" of which we are\nsignifying nodes ... but then, so is Wolfe's text, it is embedded in\nthe larger textus which allows it to signify." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From interviews I'd say he definitely\nenvisions us going all the way through the labyrinth and out again,\nbewildered and humbled, yes, but also wiser and nobler. We readers have a\nhard time trusting him about this and even wonder if it's just one more lie," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wolfe is a very tricksy writer, but honest in his way. Even\nhis unreliable narrators have their reliability -- once you decrypt\n_why_ they are hiding you can decode _what_ is hidden. But Wolfe is\nsometimes too tricksy for his own good and it can be hard to figure\nout all the \"why\"s." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think. But I have to say, without any thought as to whether I ever\nunderstand even a small percent of the intertextual mysteries he delivers, I\ndo trust his face-value claim that he's not just trying to irretrievably\nconfuse his readers. (I'm not saying this because I think you, Dan'l,\nmistrust Wolfe's claim - I don't know one way or the other. It just occurs\nto me in thinking of being potentially locked only into his 'internal'\ntext.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do indeed trust Wolfe's claim, but distrust his ability to _deliver_\non it. I don't think he deliberately creates insoluble puzzles, but I\nsuspect he becomes frustrated with our inability to find what, to him,\nis so obvious. There's a passage in Campbell and Robinson's \"Skeleton\nKey to Finnegans Wake\" where they say that Joyce is driven to his\nobscurity because he is desperately trying to tell us something too\nobvious for clarity, or something like that. I think that Wolfe is in\nhis way as obscure, and as brilliant, as Joyce -- and _far_ less\nimpressed with his own cleverness than Joyce was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess I mean that I don't think unreliability is the last word in Wolfe,\neven though he has made such extensive use of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if there can ever be a \"last word\" in any text as rich as\nthe Solar labyrinth, but I agree that, if there were, it would not be\nunreliability. Wolfe is striving for clarity." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA84E38.6040203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T18:15:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA83525.6020604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 11:28 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI've already assumed for the sake of discussion that time travel is \navailable to Incanto. I still don't see how it allows him to \nmanipulate the stories. Yes, it may explain his presence in the \ngrandmother's (but then again, that's about the most convincing \nevidence for time travel, so if it can have a different explanation \nthen there goes the evidence), but not the others, nor the fact that \nthey notice they're being manipulated. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which other stories are being manipulated? Analyzing them in detail \nmight be revealing.\n\nIMO, the grandmother's tale is merely confirmation for what is already \nrevealed by the presence of the astral Oreb and (hence) the Rajan in \n\"Lake of the Long Sun\".\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T18:37:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Oh, but! You have such giants as LaHaye and Jenkins!\n\n(Ducking and running...)*\n\n\nI laid myself bare and you took full advantage. As soon as I recover from\nthis dirty below the belt winding I shall thrash you soundly if I may but\nfind a way... (I was laughing aloud truth be told.) Yes, the high churchman\nLewis and Williams are great and I'll happily claim them for my 'camp' (the\nfine Cordwainer Smith fits here too I believe). Of course, with Bunyan and\nMilton we have some of the BEST EVER writers on our team. Something just\nseemed to go drastically wrong after the 17th century.\n\nGood thoughts on the rest. I'll have to ponder it all. Especially some\nidea of 'emerging' from Wolfe's text - a sense of 'completion' or having\njourneyed *somewhere* during the immersion into his narratives. I think\nthere must be something like this going on - no matter how otherwise\never-open his texts remain. (Probably something similar to going from Briah\n'up' to the 'higher' universe (I forget the name - starts with 'Y'?) - the\njourney's FAR from over, but you're definitely NOT where you started.\n\nAnd I agree with you that Wolfe is probably sometimes too tricksy for his\nown good - I trust his intentions but not necessarily his ability to deliver\n- yes. Good connection to Joyce studies too.\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDaniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I too am an adult convert to Catholicism, among\nother things" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You've converted as an adult to other religions as well? Heh, heh, just\njokin'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other philosophies, to be sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I admit I didn't expect you to go there, but, yeah, if we're\ntalking\nabout a Logos-cosmos when we say things like 'the world is text' or what\nhave you, then I'm right there with you. That's the metaphysics I think\nWolfe brings to his craft - and the craft is richer for it in my opinion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Incidentally, I accept such a worldview as well, though not myself RC -\na\nlowly Proddy I'm afraid - we can't seem to make any great authors of our\nown\nso we are ever the barnacles on the great RC writers - though I'm proud\nto\nsteal a ride from such legendary vessels as Chesterton, Wolfe, O'Connor,\nPercy, Lafferty, etc.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, but! You have such giants as LaHaye and Jenkins!\n\n(Ducking and running...)\n\nSeriously, there are some pretty darn good Protestant writers,\nstarting with Lewis and Williams (though they're both pretty\nhigh-church, in Williams's case so high it's basically Catholic Lite)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that to understand what\nWolfe is doing here we must understand not only the textuality of the\ntext but the _radical_ textuality of the \"internal\" reality of his\nstories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't think I understand this bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I am saying is that inside the text there is nothing but more\ntext. If there is anything \"extra-textual,\" it is what _we_ bring to\nthe text. (\"Behind our efforts, let there be found our efforts.\") The\ntext is composed of signifiers, which (can) signify only because they\nare part of the web (_textus_) of other signifiers that constitutes\nthe text. As above, so below: the text is fractally textual, when you\ndig down into it you find the structure of the larger text, repeated\nto infinity (or as close to infinity as a human creator can manage)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What _is_ there\nfor us to interpret, but the text and its intertextuality?\n\nI'm not sure Wolfe ever gets so far down inside a narratological rat's\nnest\nthat he or we can never emerge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What would it mean to \"emerge\"? To emerge from Wolfe's text is merely\nto return to the larger textus of \"reality,\" of which we are\nsignifying nodes ... but then, so is Wolfe's text, it is embedded in\nthe larger textus which allows it to signify." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From interviews I'd say he definitely\nenvisions us going all the way through the labyrinth and out again,\nbewildered and humbled, yes, but also wiser and nobler. We readers have\na\nhard time trusting him about this and even wonder if it's just one more\nlie," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Wolfe is a very tricksy writer, but honest in his way. Even\nhis unreliable narrators have their reliability -- once you decrypt\n_why_ they are hiding you can decode _what_ is hidden. But Wolfe is\nsometimes too tricksy for his own good and it can be hard to figure\nout all the \"why\"s." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think. But I have to say, without any thought as to whether I ever\nunderstand even a small percent of the intertextual mysteries he\ndelivers, I\ndo trust his face-value claim that he's not just trying to irretrievably\nconfuse his readers. (I'm not saying this because I think you, Dan'l,\nmistrust Wolfe's claim - I don't know one way or the other. It just\noccurs\nto me in thinking of being potentially locked only into his 'internal'\ntext.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do indeed trust Wolfe's claim, but distrust his ability to _deliver_\non it. I don't think he deliberately creates insoluble puzzles, but I\nsuspect he becomes frustrated with our inability to find what, to him,\nis so obvious. There's a passage in Campbell and Robinson's \"Skeleton\nKey to Finnegans Wake\" where they say that Joyce is driven to his\nobscurity because he is desperately trying to tell us something too\nobvious for clarity, or something like that. I think that Wolfe is in\nhis way as obscure, and as brilliant, as Joyce -- and _far_ less\nimpressed with his own cleverness than Joyce was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I guess I mean that I don't think unreliability is the last word in\nWolfe,\neven though he has made such extensive use of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know if there can ever be a \"last word\" in any text as rich as\nthe Solar labyrinth, but I agree that, if there were, it would not be\nunreliability. Wolfe is striving for clarity.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T18:44:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I am so _embarassed_ not to have thought of Cordwainer Smith..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Daniel Petersen\n wrote:\nOh, but! You have such giants as LaHaye and Jenkins!\n\n(Ducking and running...)\n\n\nI laid myself bare and you took full advantage. As soon as I recover from\nthis dirty below the belt winding I shall thrash you soundly if I may but\nfind a way... (I was laughing aloud truth be told.)? Yes, the high churchman\nLewis and Williams are great and I'll happily claim them for my 'camp' (the\nfine Cordwainer Smith fits here too I believe). Of course, with Bunyan and\nMilton we have some of the BEST EVER writers on our team. Something just\nseemed to go drastically wrong after the 17th century.\n\nGood thoughts on the rest. I'll have to ponder it all. Especially some\nidea of 'emerging' from Wolfe's text - a sense of 'completion' or having\njourneyed somewhere during the immersion into his narratives. I think there\nmust be something like this going on - no matter how otherwise ever-open his\ntexts remain. (Probably something similar to going from Briah 'up' to the\n'higher' universe (I forget the name - starts with 'Y'?) - the journey's FAR\nfrom over, but you're definitely NOT where you started.\n\nAnd I agree with you that Wolfe is probably sometimes too tricksy for his\nown good - I trust his intentions but not necessarily his ability to deliver\n- yes. Good connection to Joyce studies too.\n\n-DOJP\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I too am an adult convert to Catholicism, among\nother things" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You've converted as an adult to other religions as well? Heh, heh, just\njokin'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Other philosophies, to be sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, I admit I didn't expect you to go there, but, yeah, if we're\ntalking\nabout a Logos-cosmos when we say things like 'the world is text' or what\nhave you, then I'm right there with you. That's the metaphysics I think\nWolfe brings to his craft - and the craft is richer for it in my\nopinion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(Incidentally, I accept such a worldview as well, though not myself RC -\na\nlowly Proddy I'm afraid - we can't seem to make any great authors of our\nown\nso we are ever the barnacles on the great RC writers - though I'm proud\nto\nsteal a ride from such legendary vessels as Chesterton, Wolfe, O'Connor,\nPercy, Lafferty, etc.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, but! You have such giants as LaHaye and Jenkins!\n\n(Ducking and running...)\n\nSeriously, there are some pretty darn good Protestant writers,\nstarting with Lewis and Williams (though they're both pretty\nhigh-church, in Williams's case so high it's basically Catholic Lite)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think that to understand what\nWolfe is doing here we must understand not only the textuality of the\ntext but the _radical_ textuality of the \"internal\" reality of his\nstories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Don't think I understand this bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What I am saying is that inside the text there is nothing but more\ntext. If there is anything \"extra-textual,\" it is what _we_ bring to\nthe text. (\"Behind our efforts, let there be found our efforts.\") The\ntext is composed of signifiers, which (can) signify only because they\nare part of the web (_textus_) of other signifiers that constitutes\nthe text. As above, so below: the text is fractally textual, when you\ndig down into it you find the structure of the larger text, repeated\nto infinity (or as close to infinity as a human creator can manage)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What _is_ there\nfor us to interpret, but the text and its intertextuality?\n\nI'm not sure Wolfe ever gets so far down inside a narratological rat's\nnest\nthat he or we can never emerge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What would it mean to \"emerge\"? To emerge from Wolfe's text is merely\nto return to the larger textus of \"reality,\" of which we are\nsignifying nodes ... but then, so is Wolfe's text, it is embedded in\nthe larger textus which allows it to signify." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From interviews I'd say he definitely\nenvisions us going all the way through the labyrinth and out again,\nbewildered and humbled, yes, but also wiser and nobler. We readers have\na\nhard time trusting him about this and even wonder if it's just one more\nlie," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Wolfe is a very tricksy writer, but honest in his way. Even\nhis unreliable narrators have their reliability -- once you decrypt\n_why_ they are hiding you can decode _what_ is hidden. But Wolfe is\nsometimes too tricksy for his own good and it can be hard to figure\nout all the \"why\"s." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think. But I have to say, without any thought as to whether I ever\nunderstand even a small percent of the intertextual mysteries he\ndelivers, I\ndo trust his face-value claim that he's not just trying to irretrievably\nconfuse his readers. (I'm not saying this because I think you, Dan'l,\nmistrust Wolfe's claim - I don't know one way or the other. It just\noccurs\nto me in thinking of being potentially locked only into his 'internal'\ntext.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do indeed trust Wolfe's claim, but distrust his ability to _deliver_\non it. I don't think he deliberately creates insoluble puzzles, but I\nsuspect he becomes frustrated with our inability to find what, to him,\nis so obvious. There's a passage in Campbell and Robinson's \"Skeleton\nKey to Finnegans Wake\" where they say that Joyce is driven to his\nobscurity because he is desperately trying to tell us something too\nobvious for clarity, or something like that. I think that Wolfe is in\nhis way as obscure, and as brilliant, as Joyce -- and _far_ less\nimpressed with his own cleverness than Joyce was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I guess I mean that I don't think unreliability is the last word in\nWolfe,\neven though he has made such extensive use of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know if there can ever be a \"last word\" in any text as rich as\nthe Solar labyrinth, but I agree that, if there were, it would not be\nunreliability. Wolfe is striving for clarity.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA85BA9.5070708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T19:12:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Incidentally, I accept such a worldview as well, though not myself RC \n- a lowly Proddy I'm afraid - we can't seem to make any great authors \nof our own so we are ever the barnacles on the great RC writers - \nthough I'm proud to steal a ride from such legendary vessels as \nChesterton, Wolfe, O'Connor, Percy, Lafferty, etc.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "CS Lewis, Charles Williams, George MacDonald, John Bunyan.\n\nAlthough, one does sense that Protestants prefer non-fiction. But they \nstill represent.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T19:49:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA85BA9.5070708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "George MacD! How could I neglect to mention one of my all-time faves.\nWell, thanks all for reminding me that Proddys do represent! (Although it\nseems to have been a suspiciously long while - anything since Smith in the\n50s? Walter Wangerin's Book of the Dun Cow from the late 70s is excellent\nand he's a very good writer - but he didn't really pan out overall I\nthink.) [Don't any of you *dare* mention that Legislation-cephalus fellow.]\n\n-DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n (Incidentally, I accept such a worldview as well, though not myself RC - a\nlowly Proddy I'm afraid - we can't seem to make any great authors of our own\nso we are ever the barnacles on the great RC writers - though I'm proud to\nsteal a ride from such legendary vessels as Chesterton, Wolfe, O'Connor,\nPercy, Lafferty, etc.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "CS Lewis, Charles Williams, George MacDonald, John Bunyan.\n\nAlthough, one does sense that Protestants prefer non-fiction. But they\nstill represent.\n\nJ.\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T20:11:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, and. Madeleine L'Engle and Susan Cooper (both Anglican/Episcopal),\nConnie Willis and Dr Seuss (Lutheran), Steven King and Jack Williamson\n(Methodist), and Orson Scott Card if you want to count Mormons as a\nkind of Protestants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Daniel Petersen\n wrote:\nGeorge MacD!? How could I neglect to mention one of my all-time faves.\nWell, thanks all for reminding me that Proddys do represent!? (Although it\nseems to have been a suspiciously long while - anything since Smith in the\n50s? Walter Wangerin's Book of the Dun Cow from the late 70s is excellent\nand he's a very good writer - but he didn't really pan out overall I\nthink.)? [Don't any of you dare mention that Legislation-cephalus fellow.]\n\n-DOJP\n\nOn Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:12 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(Incidentally, I accept such a worldview as well, though not myself RC -\na lowly Proddy I'm afraid - we can't seem to make any great authors of our\nown so we are ever the barnacles on the great RC writers - though I'm proud\nto steal a ride from such legendary vessels as Chesterton, Wolfe, O'Connor,\nPercy, Lafferty, etc.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "CS Lewis, Charles Williams, George MacDonald, John Bunyan.\n\nAlthough, one does sense that Protestants prefer non-fiction. But they\nstill represent.\n\nJ.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA870B3.1030307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T20:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 3:11 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOrson Scott Card if you want to count Mormons as a\nkind of Protestants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They, at least, think they are. And they definitely share in the \nEvangelical culture.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<27222CF54FCD4F148B6B4D71429BBDC4@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T12:55:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that Wolfe is deliberately posing a dilemma about\nmemory (and time-travel) with Incanto's dream-travel. When he changes\nsomething in someone's past, they remember it both the \"new\" way and\nthe \"old\" way. Now, if he \"really\" changed the past, they should\nremember it \"only\" the \"new\" way -- the \"old\" way now always never\nhappened. But if he doesn't, then what is he changing? \"Only\" the\nmemories of the person telling the story? Yet, the changes seem to\nhave \"real\" consequences; and, again, if he really _changed_ their\nmemories, they should not remember the pre-change version. Or should\nthey?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’m staying out of this until I’ve re-read Short Sun, then I’ll come up with naturalistic explanations if I can!\nI will note, however, that Master Ash interacts with Severian, even though he comes from one of multiple futures. How well that ties in with time-travelling hierodules etc. is a question for another day.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T12:58:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horns abilities", "in_reply_to": "<4EA83984.9040709@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (26-10-2011 17:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But if you tell a story about your childhood, and _someone else_\ncauses you to put Kirsten Dunst into it, and afterwards you remember\nKirsten Dunst being a part of it ... well, that's a different\nkettle-o'-fish entirely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but we're missing the 'afterwards you remember Kirsten Dunst being a \npart of it' part. It may be there, but I don't remember it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course such things can happen in real life: see “recovered memory syndrome”.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }