{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6086", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6086, "subject": "Horn's ability", "messages": 28, "voices": 9, "first": "2011-10-26T15:56:28+00:00", "last": "2011-10-28T16:07:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T15:56:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: It is a common expression in Ireland. If you say “he’s a header” \nit will be understood as “he’s a head case”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini- Why would Wolfe use an Irish expression in his far future \nByzantine/South America? I would need other examples of Irish slang \nassociated with Hethor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI understood in the exchange that Gerry had no way of knowing that \"header\" is\nnot a slang expression most Americans would understand (I would first think of\na method of propelling a soccer ball).\n \nThis is along the lines of Gerry not knowing that Americans do most commonly \nassociate the word \"vine\" with lianas. How he chooses to use this provided\ninformation is up to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: In Bill and Ted, a garbage nonsense movie, their ability to influence \nthe course of events is absurdly \"ghost in the machine\" type stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI appreciated the \"Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure\" reference Marc. But I did think\nthere would be some here who had never seen that movie.\n \nIt is a little funny and (intentionally) a silly movie, but let's not forget it marked \nthe screen debut of SF/Fantasy movie mega-superstar Keanu Reeves. ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:32:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: \nGreat connections with the quotes from Claw! It still looks slightly more\ncomplicated and mysterious than just this though. For example, Horn can\nform a sword from dream stuff apparently and then actually cut physical\nthings on Green with it. It's one thing for a ghost to throw plates that\nbreak. But it's another for the ghost to form a dream-plate or spirit-plate\nand the plate manages to leave a shiner on the eye of the person hit by it.\n(Even though eventually no other evidence of the plate's existence will\nremain.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis quasi-dream/quasi-reality essence is exactly what I think WOlfe was going\nfor. He doesn't WANT us to be able to fully understand it. I'll offer the \nadditional evidence that Horn can shake the hand of a Neighbor but he can't \nquite count how many limbs or heads or individuals are there. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:35:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: It is a common expression in Ireland. “If you say ?he’s a header”\nit will be understood as “he’s a head case”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini- “Why would Wolfe use an Irish expression in his far future\nByzantine/South America” ?I would need other examples of Irish slang\nassociated with Hethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I understood in the exchange that Gerry had no way of knowing that \"header\" is\nnot a slang expression most Americans would understand (I would first think of\na method of propelling a soccer ball)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another possible interpretation is that Gerry was making a joke." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is along the lines of Gerry not knowing that Americans do most commonly\nassociate the word \"vine\" with lianas. How he chooses to use this provided\ninformation is up to him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I remember rightly, the point at issue in that debate is not what\nAmericans normally mean by 'vine', but what 'vine' should be taken to\nmean when used specifically in connection with Dionysus." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:35:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nThis quasi-dream/quasi-reality essence is exactly what I think WOlfe was going\nfor. He doesn't WANT us to be able to fully understand it. I'll offer the\nadditional evidence that Horn can shake the hand of a Neighbor but he can't\nquite count how many limbs or heads or individuals are there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somehow I'm reminded of a Discworld thing ... a standing stone that\ncan't be counted.\n\nBut you're right, there's a dreamlike quality to everything about the\nNeighbors (and a fever-like quality to the inhumi)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T16:48:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nThis quasi-dream/quasi-reality essence is exactly what I think WOlfe was\ngoing\nfor. He doesn't WANT us to be able to fully understand it.*\n\n\nYeah, or he wants us to 'understand' in a more 'mystical' mode - mystery for\nthe sake of 'enlightenment' (even if ineffable to some degree) rather than\nmystery for the sake of bafflement and darkening. It seems to me that it's\na *growth* process to begin to be able to perceive and ingest the many\nlevels of reality Wolfe throws at you at once in the text. It can about\nbreak you, but if you survive you'll be fuller, weightier, wiser.\n\n\n*But you're right, there's a dreamlike quality to everything about the\nNeighbors (and a fever-like quality to the inhumi)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes*\n\n\nVery nicely put.\n\n\n-DOJP" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T17:31:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Hethor is also a saint, one of the martyrs of Chertsey. I take it that\nis the reference our Hethor is going for, since he is trying to pass\nas a Commonwealth citizen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh surely! But why must it be \"the\" (singular) reference? Consider the name Palaemon.\nIt is a saint name but is also a greek sea god. I think the duality of that name might\nhave significance given our megatherian friends. And I consider Hethor to be a more\nmysterious and enigmatic character than Palaemon and worth paying even more attention\nto if his name has a dualistic nature (demonic and saintly). No, I don't think Wolfe\nchose these dualistic names by accident." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another possible interpretation is that Gerry was making a joke." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It didn't strike me quite that way but perhaps. I'm happy to let Gerry clear up the matter\nif he so chooses" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I remember rightly, the point at issue in that debate is not what\nAmericans normally mean by 'vine', but what 'vine' should be taken to\nmean when used specifically in connection with Dionysus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your memory is partially right but incomplete. The main thrust had to do with the nature of\nthe Inhumi and I don't think Gerry was willing to concede that a God of Wine (Vines) could\nbe associated with parasitic lianas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-26T22:10:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason: Hethor is also a saint, one of the martyrs of Chertsey. I take it that\nis the reference our Hethor is going for, since he is trying to pass\nas a Commonwealth citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh surely! But why must it be \"the\" (singular) reference? Consider the name Palaemon.\nIt is a saint name but is also a greek sea god. I think the duality of that name might\nhave significance given our megatherian friends. And I consider Hethor to be a more\nmysterious and enigmatic character than Palaemon and worth paying even more attention\nto if his name has a dualistic nature (demonic and saintly). No, I don't think Wolfe\nchose these dualistic names by accident." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, certainly. I said that was the reference _Hethor_ was going for.\nWhat _Wolfe_ may have meant by it is quite another matter." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA8A981.2060003@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-27T00:44:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 6:10 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nlee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Andrew Mason: Hethor is also a saint, one of the martyrs of Chertsey. I take it that\nis the reference our Hethor is going for, since he is trying to pass\nas a Commonwealth citizen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh surely! But why must it be \"the\" (singular) reference? Consider the name Palaemon.\nIt is a saint name but is also a greek sea god. I think the duality of that name might\nhave significance given our megatherian friends. And I consider Hethor to be a more\nmysterious and enigmatic character than Palaemon and worth paying even more attention\nto if his name has a dualistic nature (demonic and saintly). No, I don't think Wolfe\nchose these dualistic names by accident." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, certainly. I said that was the reference _Hethor_ was going for.\nWhat _Wolfe_ may have meant by it is quite another matter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It almost feels sometimes like Hethor is possessed, and I am reminded of \nSilhouette and its void-demon worshipers. However, though we see divine \npossession at short range in the Whorl, we don;t seem to see much of it \non Urth. Still, he's been in space a long time ...\n\n(When I googled \"hethor name\" it suggested \"hector.\" the resemblance is \nclose enough for google's algorithm ...)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T02:11:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "<4EA8A981.2060003@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: ... well, no point in quoting; I concede the facts, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and further agreethat it's clear that Hethor, at some point, crewed aboard The Ship.\nBut that's a far cry from making him identical with Tzadkiel and/or Fr. Inire. After " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "all, _lots_ of people have crewed aboard The Ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n \n\nYes, I think the evidence for Hethor on Tzadkiel's Ship is pretty good. \"Identical\" \n\nis simply not a good word though. Is Jurturna identical to Idas? Is a khaibit\n\nidentical to her mistress? Is Silk identical to Typhon? (j/k never mind that last\n\none ;- ))" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From 5HoC to Short Sun, from Number 5 to Shadow Children to Tzadkiel to Neighbors, Wolfe " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "has addressed the Identity Problem by using characters in his fiction who are not singular \n\nin nature as we are. I'm not sure why multiple Father Inire identities is so troublesome\n\nand rises such resistance in some. Still the idea seems to nag and bother even those \n\nvehemently against it and that itself raises some questions in regard to why.\n\n \n\nI think one problem is that the story is told in first-person, but Father Inire is \n\npresented in null-person. He never shows up. In my current view, the guy is either \n\nnowhere or all over the place. I just can't see the literary value in placing him in \n\ndisguise as a few non-important characters. Why would Wolfe do that? Why, in the course \n\nof seven intense years of writing and editing and creating such difficult puzzles of which \n\nonly some have been solved to this day, why would he make Father Inire such a throw-away? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: And I agree with you that Wolfe is probably sometimes too tricksy " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for his own good - I trust his intentions but not necessarily his ability to deliver\n- yes. Good connection to Joyce studies too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I second that approval. It was a great post by Dan'l and spot on in all facets, IMHO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Hethor is also a saint, one of the martyrs of Chertsey. I take it that\nis the reference our Hethor is going for, since he is trying to pass as a Commonwealth " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "citizen....that was the reference _Hethor_ was going for. What _Wolfe_ may have meant by it " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is quite another matter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nokay, that is a notable distinction. Hethor did choose his own name. We can't know if he\n\nerred in choosing a saint name that had satanic overtones or if he did it on purpose.\n\n \n\nIt's kind of like the veiled satanic references in Ultan's dialog. It seems WOlfe knew\n\nwhat he was doing when he put them there but we can't know Ultan's motivation in \n\nmentioning them. Is he trying to send a coded message to Severian or just accidentally\n\nrevealing too much, as he does when discussiong the eating of the dead.\n\n \n\nDavid Stockhoff: (When I googled \"hethor name\" it suggested \"hector.\" the resemblance is \nclose enough for google's algorithm ...)\n\n\n;-) I can't argue with that. (Such name distortions still don't seem like anything we see\n\nanywhere in the Sun Series) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5475D7A38BB645A284F541BFE19D8B02@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T13:02:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 5:35 PM\nGerry Quinn: It is a common expression in Ireland. If you say “he’s a header”\nit will be understood as “he’s a head case”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Marc Aramini- Why would Wolfe use an Irish expression in his far future\nByzantine/South America? I would need other examples of Irish slang\nassociated with Hethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I understood in the exchange that Gerry had no way of knowing that \"header\" is\nnot a slang expression most Americans would understand (I would first think of\na method of propelling a soccer ball)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another possible interpretation is that Gerry was making a joke." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why are you all so negative about my theories!\nBut yeah, I was trying to make the point that even if we knew that Hethor’s original name started with H we wouldn’t know much, and in truth we have no particular reason to believe even that.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA95FF4.2090209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-27T13:43:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/26/2011 10:11 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nokay, that is a notable distinction. Hethor did choose his own name. We can't know if he\n\nerred in choosing a saint name that had satanic overtones or if he did it on purpose.\n\n\n\nIt's kind of like the veiled satanic references in Ultan's dialog. It seems WOlfe knew\n\nwhat he was doing when he put them there but we can't know Ultan's motivation in\n\nmentioning them. Is he trying to send a coded message to Severian or just accidentally\n\nrevealing too much, as he does when discussiong the eating of the dead.\n\n\n\nDavid Stockhoff: (When I googled \"hethor name\" it suggested \"hector.\" the resemblance is\nclose enough for google's algorithm ...)\n\n\n;-) I can't argue with that. (Such name distortions still don't seem like anything we see\n\nanywhere in the Sun Series)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. OTOH, none of those characters are said to choose their own names.\n\nOTOH yet again, the translator really chose everyone's name, on what \nbasis it's not clear. But the rules exclude all names not saintly or \nmythological---not even biblical names pass muster. So both Hector and \nHeston would need the \"treatment,\" and we are back where we began.\n\nNote: Mantis misses Jonas's saint namesake. \"Saint Jonas was beaten with \nknotty clubs and with rods until his ribs were visible, but he blessed \nGod. Then he was chained by one foot and dragged to a frozen pond to \nspend the night there.\" Also, FWIW, there is an important Korean Saint \nKim: http://magnificat.ca/cal/engl/09-16b.htm\n\nI see 2 main points: (a) Hethor does not come from Troy. Rather, he \ncomes from an spaceflight era that might have been dominated by Anglos \n(Jonas) and Asians (Kimleesoong). He could have been French or Spanish, \nbut those associations are weak; I don't think he quotes any Borges the \nway Jonas quotes Carroll. (b) He chose a name that seems \"normal\" but on \ncloser examination reveals an evil shadow. Perfect for Hethor.\n\nGiven (b), I am not sure his real name is important. It could have been \nBillsmith and the rules would be satisfied.\n\nLee, do you have a link for your demonic magistrate finding? Most of \nwhat I find is about OUR Hethor!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T13:53:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "<4EA95FF4.2090209@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I was trying to make the point that even if we knew that \nHethor’s original name started with H we wouldn’t know much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why are you all so negative about my theories!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. Why do I suspect you aren't really hurt ;- ).\n \nI don't intend to be snotty by pointing out that Gene Wolfe is\nAmerican and that may give an occasional advantage to Americans in \nunderstanding him. I just think it is a useful bit of information.\n \nI assume everyone has seen this video clip but if you listen to Gene\nWolfe speak, it can help illustrate the point.\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_mEpLK8cWE\n \nOther relevant content in this interview about Wizard/Knight is that\nWolfe is clear and unambiguous about creating this universe to \nillustrate the effect of the absence of Christianity. Neither does he\nmince words on his mythological allusions. He says \"The ValFather is \nWoden or Odin\" and \"Michael is the archangel Michael\". \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T14:15:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Lee, do you have a link for your demonic magistrate finding? Most of \nwhat I find is about OUR Hethor!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt is from this old text- An Encyclopaedia of Occultism. It is the first entry on this\nsearch page and the Google blurb is the quickest way to read the relevent content:\nhttp://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=hethor+astra&pbx=1&oq=hethor+astra&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl\u001027l4808l0l5041l14l11l1l0l0l0l280l2241l0.5.6l12l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fpÕ66e0fbd09c8604&biw\u001280&bih‡2\n\nIf you click on the link to the Encyclopaedia, you'll get some yellow highlighted parts of \nthe essentially illegible text on page 270 of the book. But if you then click on \"Plain Text\" \nin the upper right hand corner and go to page 270 you can read the full paragraph about the\nAstra named Hethor. Not a lot really. Just some old, demonic bureaucrat if I gather correctly.\nI suppose the fact that his term in office coincided with the lifespan of Jesus might have \nmade him notable for Wolfe. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA977E2.1010207@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T15:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Lee, do you have a link for your demonic magistrate finding? Most of\nwhat I find is about OUR Hethor!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nIt is from this old text- An Encyclopaedia of Occultism. It is the first entry on this\nsearch page and the Google blurb is the quickest way to read the relevent content:\nhttp://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=hethor+astra&pbx=1&oq=hethor+astra&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl\u001027l4808l0l5041l14l11l1l0l0l0l280l2241l0.5.6l12l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fpÕ66e0fbd09c8604&biw\u001280&bih‡2\n\nIf you click on the link to the Encyclopaedia, you'll get some yellow highlighted parts of\nthe essentially illegible text on page 270 of the book. But if you then click on \"Plain Text\"\nin the upper right hand corner and go to page 270 you can read the full paragraph about the\nAstra named Hethor. Not a lot really." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's the deal. The five books of Severian, and the four books of Silk \n(and perhaps the Book of the Short Sun although Wolfe veers into very \nOrthodox territory there, I think) are so ingrained with Gnosticism that \nit would be difficult to refute the assertion that these books are to \nGnosticism what the Chronicles of Narnia are to Protestant orthodoxy. \nI'm not saying I'm comfortable with that argument, but it would be very \ndifficult to refute it.\n\nAdmittedly, it's possible to make too much of it. Wolfe has said that \nBriah, Yesod, and the names of the other universes freely ripped from \nthe Gnostic lexicon without too much care for theological precision. \nHowever, I think it is a mistake to assume that the saint names were \nchose haphazardly for the characters. Given the deep level of Gnostic \ndetail carved into these books, it is extremely likely that the saint \nname Hethor was settled on precisely BECAUSE it was also the name of a \nGnostic angel (an Astra, ie. \"star\", that is a \"fallen star\", that is a \n\"fallen angel\" ). And it would be very like Wolfe to craft a character \nthat refers to both of those etymologies...as well as others such as \n\"Hector\" or the English primrose variety known as the \"Hethor Giant\".\n\nThe word \"inhuma\" references a species of bird, Dionysus, vampires, and \nmonstrosity--and all that is worked into the narrative. Wolfe is just \nvery, very clever. And he invites us to be very clever too." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA97E06.6000308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-27T15:51:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/27/2011 10:15 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Lee, do you have a link for your demonic magistrate finding? Most of\nwhat I find is about OUR Hethor!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is from this old text- An Encyclopaedia of Occultism. It is the first entry on this\nsearch page and the Google blurb is the quickest way to read the relevent content:\nhttp://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=hethor+astra&pbx=1&oq=hethor+astra&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl\u001027l4808l0l5041l14l11l1l0l0l0l280l2241l0.5.6l12l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fpÕ66e0fbd09c8604&biw\u001280&bih‡2\n\nIf you click on the link to the Encyclopaedia, you'll get some yellow highlighted parts of\nthe essentially illegible text on page 270 of the book. But if you then click on \"Plain Text\"\nin the upper right hand corner and go to page 270 you can read the full paragraph about the\nAstra named Hethor. Not a lot really. Just some old, demonic bureaucrat if I gather correctly.\nI suppose the fact that his term in office coincided with the lifespan of Jesus might have\nmade him notable for Wolfe. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He does sound like an Archon of sorts, more gnostic than satanic. The \nAstras seem to be angels with legalistic powers limited to the earthly \nsphere and linked with stars.\n\nNaming Hethor for an Astra seated during Jesus's life does make him sort \nof a Herod/Pilate figure. Hethor would certainly have enjoyed the \ncrucifixion!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA97E56.7020103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-27T15:52:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "<4EA977E2.1010207@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/27/2011 11:25 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nHere's the deal. The five books of Severian, and the four books of \nSilk (and perhaps the Book of the Short Sun although Wolfe veers into \nvery Orthodox territory there, I think) are so ingrained with \nGnosticism that it would be difficult to refute the assertion that \nthese books are to Gnosticism what the Chronicles of Narnia are to \nProtestant orthodoxy. I'm not saying I'm comfortable with that \nargument, but it would be very difficult to refute it.\n\nAdmittedly, it's possible to make too much of it. Wolfe has said that \nBriah, Yesod, and the names of the other universes freely ripped from \nthe Gnostic lexicon without too much care for theological precision. \nHowever, I think it is a mistake to assume that the saint names were \nchose haphazardly for the characters. Given the deep level of Gnostic \ndetail carved into these books, it is extremely likely that the saint \nname Hethor was settled on precisely BECAUSE it was also the name of a \nGnostic angel (an Astra, ie. \"star\", that is a \"fallen star\", that is \na \"fallen angel\" ). And it would be very like Wolfe to craft a \ncharacter that refers to both of those etymologies...as well as others \nsuch as \"Hector\" or the English primrose variety known as the \"Hethor \nGiant\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely---I think the reference is simply meant to be suggestive.\n\nNow what do you know about primroses?!?!? :D" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T16:05:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "<4EA97E56.7020103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: However, I think it is a mistake to assume that the saint \nnames were chose haphazardly for the characters. Given the deep level \nof Gnostic detail carved into these books, it is extremely likely that \nthe saint name Hethor was settled on precisely BECAUSE it was also the \nname of a Gnostic angel (an Astra, ie. \"star\", that is a \"fallen star\", \nthat is a \"fallen angel\" ). And it would be very like Wolfe to craft a \ncharacter that refers to both of those etymologies...as well as others \nsuch as \"Hector\" or the English primrose variety known as the \"Hethor Giant\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nNice post James. I can certainly agree with this multi-layered analysis.\nOf course I agree that the name of an Astra fits nicely with the gnostic\nsub-text of this story. Adding a rose name to the mix is an obvious fit\nwith one of the recurring themes of the story.\n \nSigh..unfortunately I feel the need to continue to harp and hector (heh)\non about the wrongness of Hector as a possible inspiration for the name\nHethor. I can't get over the spelling and sound change (though I understand \nthat Hethor and Hector sound more similar in other languages than in my\nAmerican ears).\n \nAs previously noted, Wolfe is willing to use alternate spellings for some \nmythological names like Sphigx (for Sphinx) and Juturna and Diuturna. But \nthey sound the same when spoken. Hector has that hard K and hard T sound\nwhile Hethor has only the soft TH.\n \nIf we must have Hethor as inspired by a current-day name, I would like to\npropose the more obvious sound-alike, Heather. Does it bother some because\nit is a girl's name? It doesn't bother me since I consider Hethor to be of\nthe same ilk as Tzadkiel and thus without a definite gender. Moreover, \nheather is also a sort of wool fabric which comes in shades of gray. And \nHethor is a character dominated by that color. (I don't see any connection\nto the heather plant). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA985D2.9030808@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-27T16:24:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hethor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/27/2011 12:05 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIf we must have Hethor as inspired by a current-day name, I would like to\npropose the more obvious sound-alike, Heather. Does it bother some because\nit is a girl's name? It doesn't bother me since I consider Hethor to be of\nthe same ilk as Tzadkiel and thus without a definite gender. Moreover,\nheather is also a sort of wool fabric which comes in shades of gray. And\nHethor is a character dominated by that color. (I don't see any connection\nto the heather plant)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "excellent!\n\nIf you think of the Long Sun naming conventions, the plant would suggest \na female person. Since (a) those conventions can't apply because the \nreader doesn't know them yet and (b) we know Wolfe considers EVERY \nconnotation, I agree that \"heather gray\" is an intended association. The \nplant looks gray-purple even in bloom; his doll's eyes are purple or \nviolet; his own hair is gray.\n\nBut additionally I wouldn't put it past Hethor to slyly imagine himself \nas a woman if he is from our era. He's all kinds of messed up." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T16:27:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: He does sound like an Archon of sorts, more gnostic than satanic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt is a point worth making but is there really a difference, other than perspective?\nMainstream Christians demonize Lucifer/Satan and the fallen angels and associate them\nwith evil. But I don't think occultists, pagans and Satanists really consider themselves\nevil. Dark maybe...\n \nActually I get the impression those guys are more tolerant of Christianity than vice-\nversa. I think they consider the Judeo-Christian God as sort of a prudish, holier-than-\nthou cousin. He may have a stick up his butt but he is still part of the family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Astras seem to be angels with legalistic powers limited to the earthly sphere and linked \nwith stars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh. We are talking about Hethor. But sounds like Father Inire to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Naming Hethor for an Astra seated during Jesus's life does make him sort of a Herod/Pilate \nfigure. Hethor would certainly have enjoyed the crucifixion!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow. That rings SO true for me in regard to the story. I can imagine such a being in adoration\nof his Master but also able to fully enjoy any pain and suffering that immortal Master might \nhave to endure (like avern wounds and salamander burns and lucivee cuts, etc.)\n \n(and Severian is an aspect of the Outsider who is likened to the God of Wine...gnostic \ncentral deity, Dionysus). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA98C49.8050200@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-27T16:52:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/27/2011 12:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAstras seem to be angels with legalistic powers limited to the earthly sphere and linked\nwith stars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. We are talking about Hethor. But sounds like Father Inire to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In some ways. If we are to think of Inire as chained to Urth, yes. But \nhe has no formal or judging powers whatsoever---unlike the Autarch.\n\nHethor is fallen from the stars in a more literal way but has no \nauthority either, except over the creatures he brought with him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Naming Hethor for an Astra seated during Jesus's life does make him sort of a Herod/Pilate\nfigure. Hethor would certainly have enjoyed the crucifixion!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wow. That rings SO true for me in regard to the story. I can imagine such a being in adoration\nof his Master but also able to fully enjoy any pain and suffering that immortal Master might\nhave to endure (like avern wounds and salamander burns and lucivee cuts, etc.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the whole sadomasochistic dark side of adoration of the \ncrucifix(ion). I think Hethor's character is an essential part of \nSeverian's relation as torturer to the Christ. Too much (of something \nthat is) good is evil." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T18:08:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From 5HoC to Short Sun, from Number 5 to Shadow Children to Tzadkiel to Neighbors, Wolfe \nhas addressed the Identity Problem by using characters in his fiction who are not singular \nin nature as we are. I'm not sure why multiple Father Inire identities is so troublesome\nand rises such resistance in some. Still the idea seems to nag and bother even those \nvehemently against it and that itself raises some questions in regard to why." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How neat. That people argue against your theories itself constitutes evidence for them in your mind.\n\nI told you why I argue against it already: Father Inire as boatman, as well as making no sense in itself, wrecks the character and storyline of a major character, Dorcas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think one problem is that the story is told in first-person, but Father Inire is \npresented in null-person. He never shows up. In my current view, the guy is either \nnowhere or all over the place. I just can't see the literary value in placing him in \ndisguise as a few non-important characters. Why would Wolfe do that? Why, in the course \nof seven intense years of writing and editing and creating such difficult puzzles of which \nonly some have been solved to this day, why would he make Father Inire such a throw-away? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He’s not a throwaway. He’s the cacogen who came to Urth as advisor to the Autarchs. He is capable of the odd spying mission in the jungle, too. But he’s not all over the place. He’s in the places he’s supposed to be.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319741777.8285.YahooMailNeo@web114709.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T18:56:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: Lee Berman \nFrom 5HoC to Short Sun, from Number 5 to Shadow Children to Tzadkiel to Neighbors, Wolfe \nhas addressed the Identity Problem by using characters in his fiction who are not singular \nin nature as we are. I'm not sure why multiple Father Inire identities is so troublesome\nand rises such resistance in some. Still the idea seems to nag and bother even those \nvehemently against it and that itself raises some questions in regard to why.\n\nHow neat. That people argue against your theories itself constitutes evidence for them in your mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He hasn't said that, but certainly questioning why people don't agree with you is rude, as if they couldn't have a rational reason. And if one were to go farther and suggest psychological obstacles to people's agreement with one's theories, that would be rude and annoying whether one's guesses were right or wrong. I'm glad Lee didn't do that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I told you why I argue against it already: Father Inire as boatman, as well as making no sense in itself, wrecks the character and storyline of a major character, Dorcas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think one problem is that the story is told in first-person, but Father Inire is \npresented in null-person. He never shows up. In my current view, the guy is either \nnowhere or all over the place. I just can't see the literary value in placing him in \ndisguise as a few non-important characters. Why would Wolfe do that? Why, in the course \nof seven intense years of writing and editing and creating such difficult puzzles of which \nonly some have been solved to this day, why would he make Father Inire such a throw-away? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He’s not a throwaway. He’s the cacogen who came to Urth as advisor to the Autarchs. He is capable of the odd spying mission in\nthe jungle, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is the overt value of Father Inire to the narrative? He introduces the mirrors, he provides an explanation for how the Botanic Garden can be mostly in good repair (and for the Secret House? I forget), and his letter shows the kind of information Severian now needs as the Autarch (in addition to being the clearest source in BotNS for the information that the Ascians are the slaves of Abaia, I think, but no doubt someone will correct me if there's another clear source). He provides a mystery that may engage our attention and a suspect for the manipulation of Severian's life, which he tells us overtly is happening.\n\nI don't see that as a throwaway at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he’s not all over the place. He’s in the places he’s supposed to be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In particular, we may be tempted to deal with this air of mystery by detecting his covert influence on the story, more or less speculatively. But the solution doesn't have to be that he /is/?other characters. Whatever the purpose of his being another character may be, it can probably be served by his employing that character. It's /more/ explicit in the text that he employs Rudesind than that he is the cowled servant or the old jungle guide, which suggests a theory he has agents here and there, or that he both has agents and appears in disguise. (Then there's?a possible theory that other characters' agents are trying to suggest that they're his agents or him.)\n\nI thank people for looking at these theories, as I'd never have noticed on my own that the cowled servant or the jungle guide could be Inire.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA9B3B3.6050902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T19:40:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "<4EA97E56.7020103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/27/2011 11:25 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And it would be very like Wolfe to craft a character that refers to \nboth of those etymologies...as well as others such as \"Hector\" or the \nEnglish primrose variety known as the \"Hethor Giant\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/27/2011 10:52 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nNow what do you know about primroses?!?!? :D" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe likes asterids. Dahlia and teasle are asterids.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T20:01:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "<4EA9B3B3.6050902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: In some ways. If we are to think of Inire as chained to Urth, yes. But \nhe has no formal or judging powers whatsoever---unlike the Autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI am going to distort the meaning of your post and agree with you. Any executive power the\nAutarch seems to have is purely a formality. There is the evidence of Cyriaca and some other\nquotes which suggest nobody really knows who the true power ruling the Commonwealth is, The \nAutarch or the cacogens (Inire and...?)\n \nThere is of course the oft-repeated trope in myth, literature and history of the manipulative\nvizier who is the true power behind the throne which Wolfe may be invoking here.\n \nBut for me the clincher is Father Inire's letter. I would paraphrase it as saying: \"Welcome to\nthe Autarchy, new super-duper, most radically awesome guy! Now, I've made this major decision\nwhich I'm SURE you'll approve of. And I've taken this radical action which you naturally support.\nEtc. etc. But, let's never forget, I am \"your humble servant\", Inire.\n \n(FWIW, it has never escaped me that Severian and others call him \"Father\" but he doesn't call \nhimself that.)\n\nHm. we have recently discussed whether Severian is clueless as to Inire's many appearances in \nhis story or is deliberately hiding his recognition. There is a bit of evidence, perhaps a slip,\nthat suggests during his later writing Severian knows full well when Father Inire has appeared\nin disguise in his story.\n \nRudesind mentions that his master (Father Inire) \"went away north\", but is hesitant to dwell on the\npoint. In Severian's reply, he says, \"We even know that your master was with us in the jungles of \nthe north, where he tried until it was too late to rescue my predecessor\". Inire's letter itself \nalludes to recent events with Agia and Vodalus that imply that he was nearby.\n \nSo, Severian knows the Jungle Guide was Inire. But all we get is this little hint to know that he\nknows it.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EA9BB60.90805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T20:13:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: However, I think it is a mistake to assume that the saint\nnames were chose haphazardly for the characters. Given the deep level\nof Gnostic detail carved into these books, it is extremely likely that\nthe saint name Hethor was settled on precisely BECAUSE it was also the\nname of a Gnostic angel (an Astra, ie. \"star\", that is a \"fallen star\",\nthat is a \"fallen angel\" ). And it would be very like Wolfe to craft a\ncharacter that refers to both of those etymologies...as well as others\nsuch as \"Hector\" or the English primrose variety known as the \"Hethor Giant\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/27/2011 11:05 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nSigh..unfortunately I feel the need to continue to harp and hector (heh)\non about the wrongness of Hector as a possible inspiration for the name\nHethor. I can't get over the spelling and sound change (though I understand\nthat Hethor and Hector sound more similar in other languages than in my\nAmerican ears)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is not at all adverse to puns rather than explicit references to \nmythology using *actual names*. An example escapes me at this time, \nbut he does it.\n\nAdditionally, the connection between the names might be even more \nexplicit. It depends what reference Wolfe was using and the connections \nthat might have gone off in his head. I suspect that Hathor (alternately \nspelled Hethor) is astrologically connected to Hector and they might be \netymologically connected as well. Wolfe might have assumed the same as well.\n\nOf course, I don't say he has drawn that connection. But the subtle \ndifferences in spelling and pronunciation are not an impediment.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T20:33:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "<4EA9BB60.90805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman:He hasn't said that, but certainly questioning why people \ndon't agree with you is rude, as if they couldn't have a rational reason. \nAnd if one were to go farther and suggest psychological obstacles to people's \nagreement with one's theories, that would be rude and annoying whether one's \nguesses were right or wrong. I'm glad Lee didn't do that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yeah, of course. It make perfect sense to me that this Father Inire stuff\nmight be questionable to anyone. It is pretty bizarre. But some people are \ninterested in it and they ask me questions about it and I answer. \n \nMy only confusion would be on why Gerry feels the need to express his disagreement \nagain and again after every post, for two or three years now. Who doesn't know, already, \nthat Gerry Quinn doesn't like the Father Inire theory?\n \nBut, as you suggest, his motivations are none of my business and I can ignore his posts as \neasily as he could ignore mine. Apparently there is some mutual interest in each\nother's ideas after all ;- )." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thank people for looking at these theories, as I'd never have noticed on my own that \nthe cowled servant or the jungle guide could be Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that is my attitude also. When I was on my own with Wolfe, I thought the cowled\nservant was the only cameo appearance and that it was just a cute literary peek-a-boo.\n \nBut in reading Borski's book I found his arguments for numerous other (though not all) \nappearances of Inire to be rather compelling. OTOH, I found his Inire + Cumaean= \nMr. and Mrs.Moses interpretation to be sorely lacking, which is what drove me here. \nBut it was he who got me thinking and looking and I owe him an eternal debt for that.\n \nPerhaps the Father Inire theory has allowed other people to look into nooks and crannies\nof the story and find previously undiscovered trains of thought. I do notice a general\nperception of the pervasive gnostic undercurrent in the Sun Series which was not present\na few years ago.\n \nBut other people's thoughts and theories are their own. I don't much believe in Roy C. Lackey's\nrecognition of an \"accepted lupine gospel\" that we all must adhere to. Nor do I think the\npursuit of such a thing is fruitful. I think reading a book is a unique experience for each\nreader. If there is enough overlap of understanding with other readers that discussion may\noccur, that can be nice. But the individual understanding and experience is always what is\nmost important. We read alone. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1319779480.87002.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T05:24:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Thu, 10/27/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Horn's ability\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, October 27, 2011, 11:08 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From 5HoC to Short Sun, from Number 5 to Shadow Children to Tzadkiel to Neighbors, Wolfe \nhas addressed the Identity Problem by using characters in his fiction who are not singular \nin nature as we are. I'm not sure why multiple Father Inire identities is so troublesome\nand rises such resistance in some. Still the idea seems to nag and bother even those \nvehemently against it and that itself raises some questions in regard to why." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How neat. That people argue against your theories itself constitutes evidence for them in your mind.\n\nI told you why I argue against it already: Father Inire as boatman, as well as making no sense in itself, wrecks the character and storyline of a major character, Dorcas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think one problem is that the story is told in first-person, but Father Inire is \npresented in null-person. He never shows up. In my current view, the guy is either \nnowhere or all over the place. I just can't see the literary value in placing him in \ndisguise as a few non-important characters. Why would Wolfe do that? Why, in the course \nof seven intense years of writing and editing and creating such difficult puzzles of which \nonly some have been solved to this day, why would he make Father Inire such a throw-away? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He’s not a throwaway. He’s the cacogen who came to Urth as advisor to the Autarchs. He is capable of the odd spying mission in the jungle, too. But he’s not all over the place. He’s in the places he’s supposed to be.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n“I was just looking at the back and forth between Gerry and Lee, and there was one brief message where it was almost friendly, and I thought it would be so awesome if you two were really just one super crazy MPD person, one with an American persona and one with the skeptical approach, so that you would always find SOMEONE agreeing with you no matter what your position was. (or have you found that now?EVERYONE disagrees with everything”)\n\nOn one site where they said I was a crazy person, I signed up under a psuedonym to defend myself, but to seem credible I had to find fault with one or two \"out there\" Aramini theories to worm my way in to agreeing with the important points and representing them with less fervor. bwa ha ha. I have been applying Borski's onomastics to your names but one has nine letters and the other ten. \nThe best I can do is Rey Gurqinn or Berle Mane (pronounced burly of course)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAAD345.9040109@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-28T16:07:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Horn's ability", "in_reply_to": "<1319779480.87002.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/28/2011 1:24 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n I was just looking at the back and forth between Gerry and Lee, and \nthere was one brief message where it was almost friendly, and I \nthought it would be so awesome if you two were really just one super \ncrazy MPD person, one with an American persona and one with the \nskeptical approach, so that you would always find SOMEONE agreeing \nwith you no matter what your position was. (or have you found that \nnow EVERYONE disagrees with everything?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha! How funny (and sad) that to have an American persona means to be \nunskeptical.\n\nAnd yet, we are often so close-minded as well. The combination is \nincredibly destructive, and we see the effects of it splashed across our \nscreens every day.\n\nBack to our regularly scheduled arguing...." } ] } ] }