Subject: (urth) Horn's abilities

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:53:43 +0000

Daniel Petersen wrote:

> What's the deal with it being semi-physical? “Is it 'out of body' even
> though you can physically influence stuff in the place you 'go' to” ?It's
> one of the weirdest things I've ever seen (because it's not as simple as
> time travel on one hand or visions on the other, etc.). ?And Wolfe's
> introduction and development of it narratively (especially in In Green's
> Jungles) is one of the most jaw-dropping, mind-bending experiences I've had
> in reading.

I think it has something in common with an aquastor. It's clearly not
exactly the same; its source is different, and so are the precise
abilities of the travellers. But Malrubius says that though he is a
dance of particles, it's still possible to touch him, because all
matter is a dance of particles - and I think that works for astral
travellers as well.

---

From: Daniel Petersen <danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:59:35 +0000

Hm, very interesting and thought provoking indeed.  I like it.
-DOJP

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com
> wrote:

> Daniel Petersen wrote:
>
> > What's the deal with it being semi-physical?  Is it 'out of body' even
> > though you can physically influence stuff in the place you 'go' to?  It's
> > time travel on one hand or visions on the other, etc.).  And Wolfe's
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From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:07:44 +0000

James Wynn wrote:

> There is simply no other reasonable explanation, given the context, for
> Pike's sparkly disapperating ghost and the astral flying Oreb Silk also
> meets upstairs at a time when Oreb's wing is damaged.
> Combine that with Rajan appearing in the grandmother's tale, and the
> timelines not matching for when Horn left, Hide left, Hoof left, and the
> ages of Sinew's sons -- well, dream-travel is time travel.

I'm not wholly convinced by that, because of the vagueness of dates in
the _Sun_ universe generally. GW in one of the appendices to _New Sun_
complains that the people of that age have a strangely vague
conception of time; and there's something in OBW which suggests people
on Blue aren't entirely clear about how long the year is.

>
> Not give the subsequent appearance of astral Oreb.

Oreb appears _before_ Pike. Silk wakes up to see 'Oreb' flyibng out to
the window, then, if I remember rightly, talks to Mucor for a while,
then goes downstairs and talks to the real (contemporary) Oreb, then
hears the bed creaking, comes upstairs again, and sees PIke. PIke and
Oreb aren't together; and given that Silk only saw him flying out of
the window, it;s not clear that it is Oreb at all.

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:48:26 +0000

> the window, it;s not clear that it is Oreb at all.

One thing is certain, that episode is to be explained and not just dismissed.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:44:10 +0000

>> Not given the subsequent appearance of astral Oreb.
> On 10/26/2011 12:07 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:
> Oreb appears_before_  Pike. Silk wakes up to see 'Oreb' flyibng out to

Yeah, when I wrote that I suspected it *might* have been the other way 
around--but I decided to just go for it. And here's why: The events are 
so closely connected in time it doesn't really matter.

Andrew, I think you and I have discussed before that one wants more 
evidence than "Well, who else could it be?", but there really are a very 
limited number of night choughs in the Long/Short Sun story. Even if 
Silk had not discovered an astral old man in Pike's room, the existence 
of an astral Oreb would be a strong hint that the Rajan was nearby.

J.