# Horn's abilities *The Urth list — 5 messages, 4 voices, 26 Oct 2011* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Andrew Mason *26 Oct 2011, 16:53* > Daniel Petersen wrote: > What's the deal with it being semi-physical? “Is it 'out of body' even > though you can physically influence stuff in the place you 'go' to” ?It's > one of the weirdest things I've ever seen (because it's not as simple as > time travel on one hand or visions on the other, etc.). ?And Wolfe's > introduction and development of it narratively (especially in In Green's > Jungles) is one of the most jaw-dropping, mind-bending experiences I've had > in reading. I think it has something in common with an aquastor. It's clearly not exactly the same; its source is different, and so are the precise abilities of the travellers. But Malrubius says that though he is a dance of particles, it's still possible to touch him, because all matter is a dance of particles - and I think that works for astral travellers as well. --- ### Daniel Petersen *26 Oct 2011, 16:59 · in reply to Andrew Mason* Hm, very interesting and thought provoking indeed. I like it. -DOJP On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Andrew Mason wrote: > Daniel Petersen wrote: >> What's the deal with it being semi-physical? Is it 'out of body' even >> though you can physically influence stuff in the place you 'go' to? It's >> one of the weirdest things I've ever seen (because it's not as simple as >> time travel on one hand or visions on the other, etc.). And Wolfe's >> introduction and development of it narratively (especially in In Green's >> Jungles) is one of the most jaw-dropping, mind-bending experiences I've >> had >> in reading. > I think it has something in common with an aquastor. It's clearly not > exactly the same; its source is different, and so are the precise > abilities of the travellers. But Malrubius says that though he is a > dance of particles, it's still possible to touch him, because all > matter is a dance of particles - and I think that works for astral > travellers as well. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Andrew Mason *26 Oct 2011, 17:07 · follows Daniel Petersen* > James Wynn wrote: > There is simply no other reasonable explanation, given the context, for > Pike's sparkly disapperating ghost and the astral flying Oreb Silk also > meets upstairs at a time when Oreb's wing is damaged. > Combine that with Rajan appearing in the grandmother's tale, and the > timelines not matching for when Horn left, Hide left, Hoof left, and the > ages of Sinew's sons -- well, dream-travel is time travel. I'm not wholly convinced by that, because of the vagueness of dates in the _Sun_ universe generally. GW in one of the appendices to _New Sun_ complains that the people of that age have a strangely vague conception of time; and there's something in OBW which suggests people on Blue aren't entirely clear about how long the year is. > Not give the subsequent appearance of astral Oreb. Oreb appears _before_ Pike. Silk wakes up to see 'Oreb' flyibng out to the window, then, if I remember rightly, talks to Mucor for a while, then goes downstairs and talks to the real (contemporary) Oreb, then hears the bed creaking, comes upstairs again, and sees PIke. PIke and Oreb aren't together; and given that Silk only saw him flying out of the window, it;s not clear that it is Oreb at all. --- ### António Pedro Marques *26 Oct 2011, 17:48 · in reply to Andrew Mason* Andrew Mason wrote (26-10-2011 18:07): > James Wynn wrote: >> Not give the subsequent appearance of astral Oreb. > Oreb appears _before_ Pike. Silk wakes up to see 'Oreb' flyibng out to > the window, then, if I remember rightly, talks to Mucor for a while, > then goes downstairs and talks to the real (contemporary) Oreb, then > hears the bed creaking, comes upstairs again, and sees PIke. PIke and > Oreb aren't together; and given that Silk only saw him flying out of > the window, it;s not clear that it is Oreb at all. One thing is certain, that episode is to be explained and not just dismissed. --- ### James Wynn *26 Oct 2011, 18:44 · in reply to Andrew Mason* >> Not given the subsequent appearance of astral Oreb. > On 10/26/2011 12:07 PM, Andrew Mason wrote: > Oreb appears_before_ Pike. Silk wakes up to see 'Oreb' flyibng out to > the window, then, if I remember rightly, talks to Mucor for a while, > then goes downstairs and talks to the real (contemporary) Oreb, then > hears the bed creaking, comes upstairs again, and sees PIke. PIke and > Oreb aren't together; and given that Silk only saw him flying out of > the window, it;s not clear that it is Oreb at all. Yeah, when I wrote that I suspected it *might* have been the other way around--but I decided to just go for it. And here's why: The events are so closely connected in time it doesn't really matter. Andrew, I think you and I have discussed before that one wants more evidence than "Well, who else could it be?", but there really are a very limited number of night choughs in the Long/Short Sun story. Even if Silk had not discovered an astral old man in Pike's room, the existence of an astral Oreb would be a strong hint that the Rajan was nearby. J. ---