{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6089", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6089, "subject": "Ships", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2011-10-27T13:28:50+00:00", "last": "2011-10-27T14:38:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T13:28:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ships", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it is a goosechase to think there is more than one ship which \nbecomes lost in the folds of time. The text hints there is only one and\nI take the hint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Where is this ?hint?? The text TELLS us quite clearly that there were many:\n\"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships that sailed \nbeyond the world's rim long ago...He said his ships all those ships became lost in the \nblackness between the suns, where the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot \nfind them.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt has been mentioned a few times recently that there is another passage which suggests\nall those ships might be one Ship. Why would WOlfe mention this possibility? Again the\nidentity problem. Are Ships crewed by the same people in different folds of time all\ndifferent Ships or are they the same one?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There’s also Jonas’s crashed ship. Unless you think that Tzadkiel is going to crash on Urth \nsome time in his future and Urth’s past. Because he expects to find a port, and it is gone \n(that’s why they crashed). There’s only one Ship. But there are lots of ships." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are being deliberately argumentative and sloppy at that. Obviously Jonas' crashed ship\nwas a lander not The Ship. Or are you suggesting the lander has the capability to become\nlost in the folds of time? \n \nIn regard to Jonas' crash, what we could be asking about is why the ruling powers of \nThe Commonwealth decided to scrap landing pads and cut the world off from easy contact\nfrom spaceships, most notably Tzadkiel's ship. The roads are closed also and the society\nis frozen in a holding pattern. The weak excuse for that offered by the Autarch doesn't\nmake sense. I think there is a power behind the throne that wants to keep Urth a certain\nway; free from innovation and outside influence. He has the place to himself.\n \nAnyway Gerry, you say exactly what I've been saying. There are many ships but there is \nonly one Ship. Isn't Tzadkiel's divine presence the defining factor in making it The Ship? \nOr do you think just any old guy could be Captain of these Ships? There is only one other \narch-angel mentioned in the text: Gabriel in Dr. Talos' Play.\n \nDo you think Gabriel is captain of his own Ship? Is there also unmentioned Captain Michael \nand Captain Raphael and Captain Uriel, etc? From the text I gather there is one Ship and\none Captain. What would be the purpose of multiple Ships going to Yesod? Nothing in the \ntext that I can see.\n \n(I tend to think Dr. Talos' mention of Gabriel was his literary allusion to the giant angel\nwe see hovering in space in the mirror book. For UotNS, Wolfe decided to use Tzadkiel to\ndisguise the angel a bit and address his need for an angel of judgement. Of course Talos\nhimself plays Gabriel...)\n \nFWIW, there was surely some interstellar trade going on during the earlier Empire of Urth\nbut I think most of the galaxy/universe was colonized by Whorls. I think this is Wolfe's\nway of explaining why some humans went out and evolved so drastically into other beings. \nThey were on one-way ships and remained in isolation from Urth for a long time. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T14:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it is a goosechase to think there is more than one ship which \nbecomes lost in the folds of time. The text hints there is only one and\nI take the hint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: \nWhere is this ?hint?? The text TELLS us quite clearly that there were many:\n\"He came to sell his clothes, and they were the kind worn on the old ships that sailed \nbeyond the world's rim long ago...He said his ships all those ships became lost in the \nblackness between the suns, where the years do not turn. Lost so that even Time cannot \nfind them.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It has been mentioned a few times recently that there is another passage which suggests\nall those ships might be one Ship. Why would WOlfe mention this possibility? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is said by Sidero. I think that reference is specifically intended to mean that there is no other Ship of the same kind as Tzadkiel’s. Quite clearly, there are many other ships. For example, Typhon had ships at his disposal that had interstellar capability. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again the\nidentity problem. Are Ships crewed by the same people in different folds of time all\ndifferent Ships or are they the same one?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t know what you mean by folds of time here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There’s also Jonas’s crashed ship. Unless you think that Tzadkiel is going to crash on Urth \nsome time in his future and Urth’s past. Because he expects to find a port, and it is gone \n(that’s why they crashed). There’s only one Ship. But there are lots of ships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are being deliberately argumentative and sloppy at that. Obviously Jonas' crashed ship\nwas a lander not The Ship. Or are you suggesting the lander has the capability to become\nlost in the folds of time? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would they have sent a lander without communicating with the (no-longer existent) port? And where is it ever suggested that Tzadkiel gets lost in time? It was the old, human-launched ships that \ngot lost. \"We crashed. It had been so long, on Urth, that there was no port when we returned, no dock. \n\nAnd Jonas gives no indication that it was not the Fortunate Cloud that crashed.\n\nThe Ship has landers that don’t need a port." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway Gerry, you say exactly what I've been saying. There are many ships but there is \nonly one Ship. Isn't Tzadkiel's divine presence the defining factor in making it The Ship? \nOr do you think just any old guy could be Captain of these Ships? There is only one other \narch-angel mentioned in the text: Gabriel in Dr. Talos' Play.\n \nDo you think Gabriel is captain of his own Ship? Is there also unmentioned Captain Michael \nand Captain Raphael and Captain Uriel, etc? From the text I gather there is one Ship and\none Captain. What would be the purpose of multiple Ships going to Yesod? Nothing in the \ntext that I can see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t see your point. Neither Jonas nor Hethor mention sojourns in Yesod, so the fact of there being only one Ship says nothing about whether they were on it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " FWIW, there was surely some interstellar trade going on during the earlier Empire of Urth\nbut I think most of the galaxy/universe was colonized by Whorls. I think this is Wolfe's\nway of explaining why some humans went out and evolved so drastically into other beings. \nThey were on one-way ships and remained in isolation from Urth for a long time. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon’s interstellar empire was not made by Whorls. Whorls ARE good for colonisation because they are big enough to carry tens of millions of passengers. If anything, that should result in fewer evolutionary changes among the colonists.\n\nOf course Wolfe is happy to allow for human evolution, but there seems no reason to think that humasns evolved into cacogens any more than to think wolves evolved into alzabo (although the story of Little Red Riding Hood at least indicates that there could be some evolutionary pressure towards the latter).\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T14:38:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ships", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: That is said by Sidero. I think that reference is specifically intended to \nmean that there is no other Ship of the same kind as Tzadkiel’s." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes. I think we may actually be mostly in agreement but talking past each other. It may\nboil down to a forest vs. trees approach. I am definitely a forest sort of thinker and\nI think you are a tree guy. \n \nSurely both approaches are important. And integrating the multiple levels of the text by combining\nthe skills of various types of thinkers is the best way to gain the greatest understanding.\n \nOn the other hand, that is a very \"forest\" way of thinking and keeping it to one level\nmay work best for some. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }