{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6090", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6090, "subject": "mysteries of the long sun?", "messages": 15, "voices": 8, "first": "2011-10-27T23:29:31+00:00", "last": "2011-11-03T14:53:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-27T23:29:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just finished reading Nightside the Long Sun. I was really hoping\nthat more than things would stand out on this second reading of the\nbook. I know Im missing something here and was wondering if any of\nyou guys can tell me if there is something along the lines of puzzles\nor mysteries that I still might have overlooked. Nightside seems\npretty straightforward compared to New/Short books and thought maybe I\njust wasnt as attentive a reader as I should have been. Just wanted\nsome things to look out for and think about before I dive into Lake." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAAC7C5.7010201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T15:18:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/27/2011 6:29 PM, larry miller wrote:\nJust finished reading Nightside the Long Sun. I was really hoping\nthat more than things would stand out on this second reading of the\nbook. I know Im missing something here and was wondering if any of\nyou guys can tell me if there is something along the lines of puzzles\nor mysteries that I still might have overlooked. Nightside seems\npretty straightforward compared to New/Short books and thought maybe I\njust wasnt as attentive a reader as I should have been. Just wanted\nsome things to look out for and think about before I dive into Lake." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Silk's vision, who is the dead woman in an alley off Silver Street?\n\nOn the way to the market, why does Silk spend two pages speculating over \nwhy he called Blood \"son\" when that was what he was trained to do?\n\nWhose knife killed Orpine?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "biglar1984 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T17:43:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "<4EAAC7C5.7010201@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "yeah I was wondering about the woman too. Surely most of the visions\npresented to Silk have connections with events in the book (Silk\nseeing lights beneath his feet is him seeing the stars out the window\nof the Whorl for example) so just who was the woman? Any thoughts?\nAlso the patch of skin found on the roof, any thoughts on this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/28/11, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 10/27/2011 6:29 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just finished reading Nightside the Long Sun. I was really hoping\nthat more than things would stand out on this second reading of the\nbook. I know Im missing something here and was wondering if any of\nyou guys can tell me if there is something along the lines of puzzles\nor mysteries that I still might have overlooked. Nightside seems\npretty straightforward compared to New/Short books and thought maybe I\njust wasnt as attentive a reader as I should have been. Just wanted\nsome things to look out for and think about before I dive into Lake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Silk's vision, who is the dead woman in an alley off Silver Street?\n\nOn the way to the market, why does Silk spend two pages speculating over\nwhy he called Blood \"son\" when that was what he was trained to do?\n\nWhose knife killed Orpine?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAAEB19.4000401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T17:49:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/28/2011 12:43 PM, larry miller wrote:\nyeah I was wondering about the woman too. Surely most of the visions\npresented to Silk have connections with events in the book (Silk\nseeing lights beneath his feet is him seeing the stars out the window\nof the Whorl for example) so just who was the woman? Any thoughts?\nAlso the patch of skin found on the roof, any thoughts on this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, It was a rabbit killed by the gyrevulture. When Silk picked it up, \nhe was attacked. Musk what coursing his hawk with rabbits earlier or \nmaybe later in the story. Now, you'll ask, why did Wolfe put a \ngyrevulture at the top of Blood's roof? What narrative value did it \noffer? It breaks up the narrative and provides some action. Also, I \nthink it had a role in a thematic reference that Wolfe was weaving into \nthe story.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T17:52:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "<4EAAEB19.4000401@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His injury by the vulture is also one of the reasons he is able to become\nclose with Crane; his hurt ankle serves as a pretext for Crane to give him\nthe wrapping, etc. So the vulture serves an importance narrative purpose as\nwell. Also, Wolfe seems to have a thing with lame protagonists. Weer,\nSeverian, Silk ... not sure why that is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 1:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 10/28/2011 12:43 PM, larry miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "yeah I was wondering about the woman too. Surely most of the visions\npresented to Silk have connections with events in the book (Silk\nseeing lights beneath his feet is him seeing the stars out the window\nof the Whorl for example) so just who was the woman? Any thoughts?\nAlso the patch of skin found on the roof, any thoughts on this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC, It was a rabbit killed by the gyrevulture. When Silk picked it up, he\nwas attacked. Musk what coursing his hawk with rabbits earlier or maybe\nlater in the story. Now, you'll ask, why did Wolfe put a gyrevulture at the\ntop of Blood's roof? What narrative value did it offer? It breaks up the\nnarrative and provides some action. Also, I think it had a role in a\nthematic reference that Wolfe was weaving into the story.\n\nJ.\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T17:56:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nAlso, Wolfe seems to have a thing with lame protagonists. Weer,\nSeverian, Silk ... not sure why that is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Resonance with the Fisher-King, perhaps? Or Tamurlane?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T18:40:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: why did Wolfe put a gyrevulture at the top of Blood's roof? What narrative \nvalue did it offer? It breaks up the narrative and provides some action. Also, I think \nit had a role in a thematic reference that Wolfe was weaving into the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree. I remember being struck by the pervasive bird theme from the first reading of\nLong Sun. Character names. Musk's hobby. Flyers. Almost as pervasive as the fishy theme\nwhich inhabits so much of BotNS. \n \nI get the sense it is part of a mythological reference shift for Wolfe from Greco-Roman to\nEgyptian. Birds are more important to the Egyptian myths than the Greek. Of course there are \nobvious reasons Egyptian mythology is less sea-oriented than for the Greeks. (same contrast \nfor mostly dry Whorl and mostly wet Urth)\n\nI see it in the gods; on the Whorl, Typhon has a family of which there was no \nhint of in BotNS (well, aside from veiled references to Scylla and Echidna). In reading\nEgyptian mythology I get more of a sense of family ties (dysfunctional but tied) among the \ngods than I do reading Greek or Roman.\n \nTyphon does make a nice bridge between Greek and Egyptian mythology. In the former he is \njust a terrible monster but for the Egyptians (as Typhon-Set) he was more of a dark, rather \nunpleasant god. The inclusion of another crossover god, Sphigx (Sphinx) as one of Typhon's \nkids could be a slight hint of the shift from Greek toward Egyptian. (though the Egyptian \nsphinx is male while the Greek and Whorl Sphinxes are female). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAB026F.7040703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T19:28:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/28/2011 12:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nHis injury by the vulture is also one of the reasons he is able to \nbecome close with Crane; his hurt ankle serves as a pretext for Crane \nto give him the wrapping, etc. So the vulture serves an importance \nnarrative purpose as well. Also, Wolfe seems to have a thing with \nlame protagonists. Weer, Severian, Silk ... not sure why that is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His leg injury occurs when he falls out of the window because Hyacinth \nis taunting him with her azoth. He only gets a cut from the gyrevulture.\n\nThe Silk leg injury another example of Silk and Auk acting out the life \nof Hephaestus. Hephaestus was alternately tossed off Mt Olympus by Zeus \n(lighting bolt) and Hera (make of it what you will), and injured his \nleg. There's the prophesy in Genesis in which the serpent bites the heel \nof the \"enmity\" which in turn crushes his head. Also, Jason and \nCinderella had only one shoe and Oedipus had a club foot.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-28T19:31:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "<4EAB026F.7040703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! Thanks for correcting me ... I was conflating the two injuries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 3:28 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 10/28/2011 12:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His injury by the vulture is also one of the reasons he is able to become\nclose with Crane; his hurt ankle serves as a pretext for Crane to give him\nthe wrapping, etc. So the vulture serves an importance narrative purpose as\nwell. Also, Wolfe seems to have a thing with lame protagonists. Weer,\nSeverian, Silk ... not sure why that is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His leg injury occurs when he falls out of the window because Hyacinth is\ntaunting him with her azoth. He only gets a cut from the gyrevulture.\n\nThe Silk leg injury another example of Silk and Auk acting out the life of\nHephaestus. Hephaestus was alternately tossed off Mt Olympus by Zeus\n(lighting bolt) and Hera (make of it what you will), and injured his leg.\nThere's the prophesy in Genesis in which the serpent bites the heel of the\n\"enmity\" which in turn crushes his head. Also, Jason and Cinderella had only\none shoe and Oedipus had a club foot.\n\n\nJ.\n\n______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAC0C5D.9030809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-29T14:23:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "<4EAB026F.7040703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/28/2011 3:28 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 10/28/2011 12:52 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His injury by the vulture is also one of the reasons he is able to \nbecome close with Crane; his hurt ankle serves as a pretext for Crane \nto give him the wrapping, etc. So the vulture serves an importance \nnarrative purpose as well. Also, Wolfe seems to have a thing with \nlame protagonists. Weer, Severian, Silk ... not sure why that is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His leg injury occurs when he falls out of the window because \nHyacinth is taunting him with her azoth. He only gets a cut from the \ngyrevulture.\n\nThe Silk leg injury another example of Silk and Auk acting out the \nlife of Hephaestus. Hephaestus was alternately tossed off Mt Olympus \nby Zeus (lighting bolt) and Hera (make of it what you will), and \ninjured his leg. There's the prophesy in Genesis in which the serpent \nbites the heel of the \"enmity\" which in turn crushes his head. Also, \nJason and Cinderella had only one shoe and Oedipus had a club foot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Jesus was stabbed in the thigh. Don't forget that one!\n\nThe provenance of this trope is ancient. As I recall, it has to do with \nthe sacred status of a king and his ability to procreate; symbolically, \nif the king is virile the land will be fertile. If he is wounded, this \nis put in doubt. Groin = thigh = leg = foot ::: foot = leg = thigh = groin.\n\nAll good heroes have been dealt blows that weaken them; they can't all \nbe King of the Prom and captain of a winning football team. In fact none \ncan be unless they then suffer a blow. If they were, they would always \nwin and their stories would be very short." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-10-29T17:07:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "<4EAC0C5D.9030809@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd Jesus was stabbed in the thigh. Don't forget that one!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excuse me -- when was this? He was stabbed in the side with a spear,\nbut I don't recall a stab in the thigh." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAC357C.8090904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-29T17:18:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/29/2011 1:07 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Jesus was stabbed in the thigh. Don't forget that one!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Excuse me -- when was this? He was stabbed in the side with a spear,\nbut I don't recall a stab in the thigh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Details, details.\n\nYou're right, it was someone else." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAC60F8.9050107@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2011-10-29T20:24:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) stab in the thigh (was: mysteries of the long sun?)", "in_reply_to": "<4EAC357C.8090904@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 29/10/11 18:18, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 10/29/2011 1:07 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And Jesus was stabbed in the thigh. Don't forget that one!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Excuse me -- when was this? He was stabbed in the side with a spear,\nbut I don't recall a stab in the thigh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Details, details.\n\nYou're right, it was someone else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly Jacob, who was wounded in the 'thigh' (read: groin, I strongly \nsuspect) when he wrestled with the angel?\n\nHowever ... David, is it possible you were thinking of Robert Graves's \nnovel 'King Jesus' when you wrote your OP? In this, the 'wrestling with \nan angel' motif is transformed into a rite of passage for the rightful \nking of Israel; Jesus undertakes this rite and is wounded in the \nthigh/hip area (his hip is dislocated) giving him a permanent limp.\n\nNot exactly being stabbed in the thigh/groin but close.\n\nIn King Jesus, this rite is undertaken as a preliminary to the marriage \nceremony for the rightful King. Jesus is married to Mary Magdalene who \nis also of the royal line - but he derails the ritual by refusing to \nconsummate this marriage (he tells Mary on their wedding night, 'You are \nmy sister! - I can't remember whether or not Graves intends this to be \nliterally true, ie. that here MM was actually Jesus's sister and that \nthis was supposed to be an Egyptian-royalty style sibling marriage). \nIt's all very 'White Goddess' as one might expect from Graves.\n\nThis is the only occasion, literary, mythological or otherwise, when I \nrecall Jesus being wounded (not stabbed though) in the 'thigh'.\n\nThis is a long way from what happened to Silk, though - though rather \nnearer to what happened to Severian, whose injury is undoubtedly in the \nthigh.\n\nAnd let's not forget the Fisher King either.\nJD" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAC65C9.2070806@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-10-29T20:44:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) stab in the thigh", "in_reply_to": "<4EAC60F8.9050107@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/29/2011 4:24 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 29/10/11 18:18, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/29/2011 1:07 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And Jesus was stabbed in the thigh. Don't forget that one!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Excuse me -- when was this? He was stabbed in the side with a spear,\nbut I don't recall a stab in the thigh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Details, details.\n\nYou're right, it was someone else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly Jacob, who was wounded in the 'thigh' (read: groin, I \nstrongly suspect) when he wrestled with the angel?\n\nHowever ... David, is it possible you were thinking of Robert Graves's \nnovel 'King Jesus' when you wrote your OP? In this, the 'wrestling \nwith an angel' motif is transformed into a rite of passage for the \nrightful king of Israel; Jesus undertakes this rite and is wounded in \nthe thigh/hip area (his hip is dislocated) giving him a permanent limp.\n\nNot exactly being stabbed in the thigh/groin but close.\n\nIn King Jesus, this rite is undertaken as a preliminary to the \nmarriage ceremony for the rightful King. Jesus is married to Mary \nMagdalene who is also of the royal line - but he derails the ritual by \nrefusing to consummate this marriage (he tells Mary on their wedding \nnight, 'You are my sister! - I can't remember whether or not Graves \nintends this to be literally true, ie. that here MM was actually \nJesus's sister and that this was supposed to be an Egyptian-royalty \nstyle sibling marriage). It's all very 'White Goddess' as one might \nexpect from Graves.\n\nThis is the only occasion, literary, mythological or otherwise, when I \nrecall Jesus being wounded (not stabbed though) in the 'thigh'.\n\nThis is a long way from what happened to Silk, though - though rather \nnearer to what happened to Severian, whose injury is undoubtedly in \nthe thigh.\n\nAnd let's not forget the Fisher King either.\nJD" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Jane\n\nI was probably thinking of both King Jesus (although I have never \nactually read it) and the Fisher King, yeah." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T14:53:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) mysteries of the long sun?", "in_reply_to": "<4EAAC7C5.7010201@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whose knife killed Orpine?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn’t it established that Orpine was stabbed by Chenille? Orpine was possessed by Mucor and came on to Chenille — or so she interpreted it — alarming her. I assume Mucor had scried a connection between Chenille and Silk.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] } ] }