{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6093", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6093, "subject": "This week in Google Alerts", "messages": 158, "voices": 19, "first": "2011-11-01T01:02:56+00:00", "last": "2011-11-08T21:13:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T01:02:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1. _New Sun_ review:\nhttp://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/lon34/gene_wolfes_shadow_of_the_torturer_book_one_of/\n2. _The Sorcerer's House_ review:\nhttp://elaguiladorada7.blogspot.com/2011/10/sorcerers-house-by-gene-wolfe.html" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T01:36:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n1. _New Sun_ review:\n\nhttp://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/lon34/gene_wolfes_shadow_of_the_torturer_book_one_of/\n\n--\ngwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The happy reviewer of Shadow states that Urth is \"clearly\" part of Earth's\nfuture. When was this list last so sure of anything about a Wolfe book?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T12:14:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matt Keeley: The happy reviewer of Shadow states that Urth is \"clearly\" part of Earth's\nfuture. When was this list last so sure of anything about a Wolfe book?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHm..I haven't seen anyone debate that the story is set in S. America for a while. That\nhad been an early debate here.\n \nBut, didn't we all think Urth was the future of Earth at one time? I think it would be\ndifficult to consider that Urth is a parallel and future version of Earth without \nexposure to the debates here and the Wolfe interview quotes.\n \n(FWIW, I think the S. America conclusion supports the parallel Urth idea. It isn't easy to\nconsider a geologic upheaval that could move the Andes from the west side to the east side \nof the continent while leaving Lake Titicaca and its floating islands intact.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T12:23:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct me if I am wrong, but Severian states that there is a cyclical nature to the universe, with each cycle a refinement of its predecessor, though nearly identical.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 1, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matt Keeley: The happy reviewer of Shadow states that Urth is \"clearly\" part of Earth's\nfuture. When was this list last so sure of anything about a Wolfe book?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm..I haven't seen anyone debate that the story is set in S. America for a while. That\nhad been an early debate here.\n\nBut, didn't we all think Urth was the future of Earth at one time? I think it would be\ndifficult to consider that Urth is a parallel and future version of Earth without \nexposure to the debates here and the Wolfe interview quotes.\n\n(FWIW, I think the S. America conclusion supports the parallel Urth idea. It isn't easy to\nconsider a geologic upheaval that could move the Andes from the west side to the east side \nof the continent while leaving Lake Titicaca and its floating islands intact.) \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EAFFC7C.3010403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-01T14:04:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/1/2011 8:14 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nMatt Keeley: The happy reviewer of Shadow states that Urth is \"clearly\" part of Earth's\nfuture. When was this list last so sure of anything about a Wolfe book?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm..I haven't seen anyone debate that the story is set in S. America for a while. That\nhad been an early debate here.\n\nBut, didn't we all think Urth was the future of Earth at one time? I think it would be\ndifficult to consider that Urth is a parallel and future version of Earth without\nexposure to the debates here and the Wolfe interview quotes.\n\n(FWIW, I think the S. America conclusion supports the parallel Urth idea. It isn't easy to\nconsider a geologic upheaval that could move the Andes from the west side to the east side\nof the continent while leaving Lake Titicaca and its floating islands intact.) \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely. It's easier to imagine Earth split like an orange and peeled \nback over either pole so that the continents and their movements are all \nreversed from the beginning, than to imagine them actually reversing \ndirection in 20,000 years. If this is actually what Wolfe was thinking, \nit makes Urth a bit less \"parallel\" to Earth---almost an opposite. But \nit's a parallel Earth that is different in only a single particular that \nis after all very minor, in that it affects characters' actions, \nmotivations, and judgement not at all. And it works thematically as \nwell, since there are so many opposites already in play.\n\nIt would be clever of Wolfe to have invented a world that is totally \nfree of Orientalism---not at all common in fantasy---by stripping the \nword \"east\" of all its usual flavors through such a simple transformation.\n\nDoes anyone know offhand the textual proof that the Andes are actually \nin the east? Severian mentions the sun often enough. I just don't know \nexactly what arguments have been made." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB00D1F.9010306@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T15:15:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/1/2011 7:23 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nCorrect me if I am wrong, but Severian states that there is a cyclical nature to the universe, with each cycle a refinement of its predecessor, though nearly identical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He receives that wisdom from Aquastor Malrubius, yes. It is from Dr \nTalos, I believe, that he hears about stories and other ideas \npercolating back and forth through time, which helps explain why \ndisplaced mountains and their consequent altered influences on climate, \nwatersheds, areas of arable land, trade routes, etc don't prevent \nrecognizable cultures from occupying the variant landscape.\n\nOr the author misremembered, I forget which." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB04AF1.7020005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-01T19:39:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/31/2011 8:36 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nThe happy reviewer of Shadow states that Urth is \"clearly\" part of \nEarth's future. When was this list last so sure of anything about a \nWolfe book?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "//I think there is little to be gained in understanding Urth as anything \nbut is the future of our Earth.\nPerhaps there is some geekish appeal positing that it is the future of \nan Earth in some parallel-dimension/universe. But for understanding the \nstory and backdrop, there is little value one way or the other.\n\nI think the interest in this debate in founded in ret-conning Briah to \nbe theologically orthodox Christian. But with all the appeals to a \ngnostic framework in the story, why bother?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<240CBF6F86C9428F9A03936C1191CAFF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T13:09:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EAFFC7C.3010403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/1/2011 8:14 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Matt Keeley: The happy reviewer of Shadow states that Urth is \"clearly\" part of Earth's\nfuture. When was this list last so sure of anything about a Wolfe book?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hm..I haven't seen anyone debate that the story is set in S. America for a while. That\nhad been an early debate here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But, didn't we all think Urth was the future of Earth at one time? I think it would be\ndifficult to consider that Urth is a parallel and future version of Earth without\nexposure to the debates here and the Wolfe interview quotes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe’s quotes are certainly a major element, but the cyclic universe is described in a chapter of Citadel called “The Key to the Universe”. That Urth is the far future of an Earth rather similar to ours is obvious. My opinion is that we are not intended to know whether it exists in a past cycle, a future cycle, or in our own (in which case Urth is a future Earth). " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(FWIW, I think the S. America conclusion supports the parallel Urth idea. It isn't easy to\nconsider a geologic upheaval that could move the Andes from the west side to the east side\nof the continent while leaving Lake Titicaca and its floating islands intact.) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Definitely. It's easier to imagine Earth split like an orange and peeled \nback over either pole so that the continents and their movements are all \nreversed from the beginning, than to imagine them actually reversing \ndirection in 20,000 years. If this is actually what Wolfe was thinking, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find it hard to believe that Severian’s descriptions of geography are detailed enough to be identifiable with confidence as a particular distorted version of Earth’s geography.\n\nAs for the time, we don’t know it, though 20000 years seems a bit short to me, not so much in terms of theoretical history, but in terms of literary style. Of course such information as we get about the age of Urth is filled with contradictions anyway.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T13:37:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<240CBF6F86C9428F9A03936C1191CAFF@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: It would be clever of Wolfe to have invented a world that is totally \nfree of Orientalism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, the Xanthic lands are mentioned. But I don't think we know where they are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Does anyone know offhand the textual proof that the Andes are \nactually in the east?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGood question. It was something I'd rested on precedent for a while. Severian\ndoes move north and east from Nessus to get to the mountains so Andes in the \neast was the assumption.\n \nBut this map (originating with Mantis, I believe) explains it with the reverse\nidea: Nessus (Buenos Aires) is on the west coast of S. America. I had thought\nthe updated LU put the Andes in the east but now I have to go check.\n(I like the sea monsters. I guess the dragon/eel is Abaia. Perhaps the whirlpool \nis Scylla's counterpoint, Charybdis. But who is the crab?)\nhttp://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/gifbin/p4/sunmaplg.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: I think there is little to be gained in understanding Urth as anything \nbut is the future of our Earth. Perhaps there is some geekish appeal positing that \nit is the future of an Earth in some parallel-dimension/universe. But for \nunderstanding the story and backdrop, there is little value one way or the other.\nI think the interest in this debate in founded in ret-conning Briah to \nbe theologically orthodox Christian. But with all the appeals to a \ngnostic framework in the story, why bother?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI see the logic. Parallel or series universes are super-nifty cool Star Trekky fare. \nBut for this story, I don't think the understanding to be gained by viewing Urth as a \npast iteration ofEarth is very geeky in nature at all. It think it is almost purely \nreligious. I don't think there is an attempt to make Briah Orthodox Christian.\n \nAs previously mentioned, I think the crux of the disagreement is whether there is a\nChrist at all in Briah. If there is, Urth is the future of Earth. If there is no\nChrist, Urth is some previous version. It all boils down to that.(and it makes sense\nthat some here would be more open to the idea of a universe without Christ than others.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB14E96.50902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T14:07:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<240CBF6F86C9428F9A03936C1191CAFF@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 9:09 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/1/2011 8:14 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Matt Keeley: The happy reviewer of Shadow states that Urth is \n\"clearly\" part of Earth's\nfuture. When was this list last so sure of anything about a Wolfe \nbook?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hm..I haven't seen anyone debate that the story is set in S. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "America for a while. That\nhad been an early debate here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But, didn't we all think Urth was the future of Earth at one time? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it would be\ndifficult to consider that Urth is a parallel and future version \nof Earth without\nexposure to the debates here and the Wolfe interview quotes.\nWolfe’s quotes are certainly a major element, but the cyclic universe \nis described in a chapter of Citadel called “The Key to the Universe”. \nThat Urth is the far future of an Earth rather similar to ours is \nobvious. My opinion is that we are not intended to know whether it \nexists in a past cycle, a future cycle, or in our own (in which case \nUrth is a future Earth)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that (a) it's not going to be THAT similar, if the Andes are \nindeed in the east and (b) Wolfe said it's in the \"past,\" whatever that \nmight exactly mean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(FWIW, I think the S. America conclusion supports the parallel \nUrth idea. It isn't easy to\nconsider a geologic upheaval that could move the Andes from the \nwest side to the east side\nof the continent while leaving Lake Titicaca and its floating \nislands intact.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Definitely. It's easier to imagine Earth split like an orange and \npeeled\nback over either pole so that the continents and their movements are \nall\nreversed from the beginning, than to imagine them actually reversing\ndirection in 20,000 years. If this is actually what Wolfe was thinking,\nI find it hard to believe that Severian’s descriptions of geography \nare detailed enough to be identifiable with confidence as a particular \ndistorted version of Earth’s geography." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's why I asked for any information about the evidence for it. \nMantis has the mountains in the east. If the Commonwealth is based on \nArgentina, then those mountains are the Andes and the continent is \nreversed. That would require that all the continents are reversed, \nbecause tectonic motion created the Andes where South America pushed \ninto the Pacific." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the time, we don’t know it, though 20000 years seems a bit \nshort to me, not so much in terms of theoretical history, but in terms \nof literary style. Of course such information as we get about the age \nof Urth is filled with contradictions anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe the 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. Since no major changes \ncould have occurred from \"now\" to Severian's time anyway, the \nsignificant changes are cultural, not geographic. Yet European languages \nare still spoken on the Whorl; even if they had to be revived for \nTyphon's purposes, they still survived that long." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T14:14:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As previously mentioned, I think the crux of the disagreement is \nwhether there is a Christ at all in Briah. If there is, Urth is the \nfuture of Earth. If there is no Christ, Urth is some previous version.\nIt all boils down to that.(and it makes sense that some here would \nbe more open to the idea of a universe without Christ than others.) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don’t think it boils down to anything like that at all. The question of whether Urth had a Christ is one that you find significant, but it is only in your theory that it has any relevance to the which cycle of the universe Urth exists in.\nThere is plenty of textual evidence, particularly in Long Sun, suggesting that Urth did indeed have a Christ, and that the cult of the Outsider is a successor to or evolution of Christianity. I think you have argued that Christianity, if it existed on Urth, seems to have vanished. But I recently re-bought my lost copy of Nightside, and perhaps I have found it:\n*****************************************\n\"When we were outside like him [The Outsider], living in the Short Sun Whorl before this one was finished and peopled, we worshipped him. No doubt you knew that already, Patera.\"\n\n\"I'd forgotten it,\" Silk admitted, \"but you're right It's in the tenth book, or the twelfth.\"\n\n\"We chems didn't share in sacrifices in the Short Sun Whorl.\" Maytera Marble fell silent for a moment, scanning old files. \"It wasn't called manteion, either. Something else. If only I could find that, I could remember more, I..\n****************************************\n\nIn Typhon’s empire, Christianity has retreated to the downtrodden and disparaged: that is to say, it is mainly to be found among the chems.\n\nWe don’t know what happened between that time and Severian’s, but it seems a stretch to argue that it has died out completely, when we know little or nothing of the religion of the vast majority of characters.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26BBA497A83445298F756A6C9BF971C3@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T14:29:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB14E96.50902@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe the 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. Since no major changes \ncould have occurred from \"now\" to Severian's time anyway, the \nsignificant changes are cultural, not geographic. Yet European languages \nare still spoken on the Whorl; even if they had to be revived for \nTyphon's purposes, they still survived that long." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even in Severian’s time scholars retain some understanding of English, as we know from Thea’s disquisition about the renaming of Verthandi and Skuld.\n\nThe atmosphere of BotNS has always reminded me of Robert Silverberg’s Nightwings, which is, if I recall correctly, set around the year 30000. Here the names of certain cities (Rome and Jorslem) survive. Just as in BotNS, the world is pseudo-feudal with high-tech elements. Earth is the clapped-out remnant of a hubristic interstellar empire and is now under the ownership of aliens.\n\nAs far as I know Wolfe has never acknowledged any literary debt to Nightwings, although it was published around 1970. Of course it may well be that he never read it and his and Silverberg’s visions evolved independently, albeit obviously from similar roots in Vance and elsewhere.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB15B5C.4020704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T15:01:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 10:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman \nAs previously mentioned, I think the crux of the disagreement is\nwhether there is a Christ at all in Briah. If there is, Urth is the\nfuture of Earth. If there is no Christ, Urth is some previous version." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It all boils down to that.(and it makes sense that some here would\nbe more open to the idea of a universe without Christ than others.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don’t think it boils down to anything like that at all. The question \nof whether Urth had a Christ is one that you find significant, but it \nis only in your theory that it has any relevance to the which cycle of \nthe universe Urth exists in.\nThere is plenty of textual evidence, particularly in Long Sun, \nsuggesting that Urth did indeed have a Christ, and that the cult of \nthe Outsider is a successor to or evolution of Christianity. I think \nyou have argued that Christianity, if it existed on Urth, seems to \nhave vanished. But I recently re-bought my lost copy of Nightside, and \nperhaps I have found it:\n*****************************************\n\"When we were outside like him [The Outsider], living in the Short Sun \nWhorl before this one was finished and peopled, we worshipped him. No \ndoubt you knew that already, Patera.\"\n\"I'd forgotten it,\" Silk admitted, \"but you're right It's in the tenth \nbook, or the twelfth.\"\n\"We chems didn't share in sacrifices in the Short Sun Whorl.\" Maytera \nMarble fell silent for a moment, scanning old files. \"It wasn't called \nmanteion, either. Something else. If only I could find that, I could \nremember more, I..\n****************************************\nIn Typhon’s empire, Christianity has retreated to the downtrodden and \ndisparaged: that is to say, it is mainly to be found among the chems.\nWe don’t know what happened between that time and Severian’s, but it \nseems a stretch to argue that it has died out completely, when we know \nlittle or nothing of the religion of the vast majority of characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some excellent observations!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T15:52:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<26BBA497A83445298F756A6C9BF971C3@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again.\n\nTBotNS is far enough in the future that mountains containing the ruins\nof long-buried cities have risen. This is not on the order of 20 or 30\nthousand years; it is millions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff\nI believe the 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. Since no major changes\ncould have occurred from \"now\" to Severian's time anyway, the\nsignificant changes are cultural, not geographic. Yet European languages\nare still spoken on the Whorl; even if they had to be revived for\nTyphon's purposes, they still survived that long.\n\nEven in Severian’s time scholars retain some understanding of English, as we\nknow from Thea’s disquisition about the renaming of Verthandi and Skuld.\n\nThe atmosphere of BotNS has always reminded me of Robert Silverberg’s\nNightwings, which is, if I recall correctly, set around the year 30000.\nHere the names of certain cities (Rome and Jorslem) survive. Just as in\nBotNS, the world is pseudo-feudal with high-tech elements. Earth is the\nclapped-out remnant of a hubristic interstellar empire and is now under the\nownership of aliens.\n\nAs far as I know Wolfe has never acknowledged any literary debt to\nNightwings, although it was published around 1970. Of course it may well be\nthat he never read it and his and Silverberg’s visions evolved\nindependently, albeit obviously from similar roots in Vance and elsewhere.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T15:54:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Additionally, I had gotten the impression that off-world species had been\nintroduced, had time to interbreed, and evolve into new, pseudo-native\nspecies. It seems on the magnitude of millions of years to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOnce again.\n\nTBotNS is far enough in the future that mountains containing the ruins\nof long-buried cities have risen. This is not on the order of 20 or 30\nthousand years; it is millions.\n\nOn Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\nI believe the 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. Since no major changes\ncould have occurred from \"now\" to Severian's time anyway, the\nsignificant changes are cultural, not geographic. Yet European languages\nare still spoken on the Whorl; even if they had to be revived for\nTyphon's purposes, they still survived that long.\n\nEven in Severian’s time scholars retain some understanding of English,\nas we\nknow from Thea’s disquisition about the renaming of Verthandi and Skuld.\n\nThe atmosphere of BotNS has always reminded me of Robert Silverberg’s\nNightwings, which is, if I recall correctly, set around the year 30000.\nHere the names of certain cities (Rome and Jorslem) survive. Just as in\nBotNS, the world is pseudo-feudal with high-tech elements. Earth is the\nclapped-out remnant of a hubristic interstellar empire and is now under\nthe\nownership of aliens.\n\nAs far as I know Wolfe has never acknowledged any literary debt to\nNightwings, although it was published around 1970. Of course it may\nwell be\nthat he never read it and his and Silverberg’s visions evolved\nindependently, albeit obviously from similar roots in Vance and\nelsewhere.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB16D69.6090909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:18:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course. But what does that distinction impact, exactly?\n\nWe know that old cultures were revived after the computer age, and with \nthem our old languages. These could not have and in fact did not survive \n20,000 years.\n\nWe know or suspect that the Commonwealth is loosely based on Argentina. \n\"Millions of years\" is not long enough for continental drift to reverse \nitself, for the Andes to erode, and for a new Andes to rise. That would \ntake many hundreds of millions. Maybe that is in fact what we are to \nconclude, although to my knowledge no one has done so.\n\nThe 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. I always thought it was way too \nlow. Still, I don't buy hundreds of millions either. Alternative \ntheories are available.\n\nSo, is Mantis just way wrong?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 11:52 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOnce again.\n\nTBotNS is far enough in the future that mountains containing the ruins\nof long-buried cities have risen. This is not on the order of 20 or 30\nthousand years; it is millions.\n\nOn Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\nI believe the 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. Since no major changes\ncould have occurred from \"now\" to Severian's time anyway, the\nsignificant changes are cultural, not geographic. Yet European languages\nare still spoken on the Whorl; even if they had to be revived for\nTyphon's purposes, they still survived that long.\nEven in Severian’s time scholars retain some understanding of English, as we\nknow from Thea’s disquisition about the renaming of Verthandi and Skuld.\n\nThe atmosphere of BotNS has always reminded me of Robert Silverberg’s\nNightwings, which is, if I recall correctly, set around the year 30000.\nHere the names of certain cities (Rome and Jorslem) survive. Just as in\nBotNS, the world is pseudo-feudal with high-tech elements. Earth is the\nclapped-out remnant of a hubristic interstellar empire and is now under the\nownership of aliens.\n\nAs far as I know Wolfe has never acknowledged any literary debt to\nNightwings, although it was published around 1970. Of course it may well be\nthat he never read it and his and Silverberg’s visions evolved\nindependently, albeit obviously from similar roots in Vance and elsewhere.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3AE9FA59FB6445BD920CF2D6BE0EF437@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:21:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again.\n\nTBotNS is far enough in the future that mountains containing the ruins\nof long-buried cities have risen. This is not on the order of 20 or 30\nthousand years; it is millions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, I know about that and other matters. I think Severian (or am I imagining it?) may even suggest somehere that Urth’s core has cooled and geological acivity has slowed or stopped. At face value this suggests hundreds of millions of years. One could always hypothesise that this is the result of a sometime ruinous reliance on geothermal technologies. Then again, one could argue that Severian’s understanding of mining is scanty. Or that some technological process has resulted in the generation of new mountains.\nHuman evolution seems consistent with anything up to a few million years. And again, we can always postulate technological interventions, perhaps at many times. \nAnd yet, there is other evidence suggesting a much earlier timeframe. Even the flimsy records from Urth’s past make it *feel* like only about 50000-100000 years at most. That is why I say it is contradictory. At least, so it seems to me; perhaps I am putting too much stress on these matters compared to the more concrete statements you mention. One can apply similar objections to these things: records stored digitally need never fade, and the Hierodules have time travel anyway.\nVance’s Dying Earth is an influence, but the sun of Urth is not dying a natural death, so its condition tells us nothing.\nLune has come closer to Urth. That’s wrong from a current perspective: the Moon should move further away as time goes on, stealing energy from the rotation of the Earth. But then again, maybe the process of giving it an atmosphere has caused friction which current predictions do not allow for.\nOne thing is certain: Wolfe has been purposely vague about the matter. He even mentions the fact in an afterword.\n- Gerry Quinn\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:23:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB16D69.6090909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no problem with hundreds of millions of years. On the other\nhand, I suspect that orogeny can take place much faster than that\ngiven the right stimuli; and a technocosmic culture might provide such\nstimuli -- if we can affect the world's climate, as we apparently\nhave, then what might a gravity-wielding civilization do to its\ngeology?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:18 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOf course. But what does that distinction impact, exactly?\n\nWe know that old cultures were revived after the computer age, and with them\nour old languages. These could not have and in fact did not survive 20,000\nyears.\n\nWe know or suspect that the Commonwealth is loosely based on Argentina.\n\"Millions of years\" is not long enough for continental drift to reverse\nitself, for the Andes to erode, and for a new Andes to rise. That would take\nmany hundreds of millions. Maybe that is in fact what we are to conclude,\nalthough to my knowledge no one has done so.\n\nThe 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. I always thought it was way too low.\nStill, I don't buy hundreds of millions either. Alternative theories are\navailable.\n\nSo, is Mantis just way wrong?\n\nOn 11/2/2011 11:52 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Once again.\n\nTBotNS is far enough in the future that mountains containing the ruins\nof long-buried cities have risen. This is not on the order of 20 or 30\nthousand years; it is millions.\n\nOn Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Gerry Quinn ?wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: David Stockhoff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I believe the 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. Since no major changes\ncould have occurred from \"now\" to Severian's time anyway, the\nsignificant changes are cultural, not geographic. Yet European languages\nare still spoken on the Whorl; even if they had to be revived for\nTyphon's purposes, they still survived that long." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Even in Severian’s time scholars retain some understanding of English, as\nwe\nknow from Thea’s disquisition about the renaming of Verthandi and Skuld.\n\nThe atmosphere of BotNS has always reminded me of Robert Silverberg’s\nNightwings, which is, if I recall correctly, set around the year 30000.\nHere the names of certain cities (Rome and Jorslem) survive. ?Just as in\nBotNS, the world is pseudo-feudal with high-tech elements. ?Earth is the\nclapped-out remnant of a hubristic interstellar empire and is now under\nthe\nownership of aliens.\n\nAs far as I know Wolfe has never acknowledged any literary debt to\nNightwings, although it was published around 1970. ?Of course it may well\nbe\nthat he never read it and his and Silverberg’s visions evolved\nindependently, albeit obviously from similar roots in Vance and\nelsewhere.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320251101.42647.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:25:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB16D69.6090909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The actual years distinction doesn't seem to make much difference in terms of Urth's culture. The culture was that way at that time because Wolfe said it is. His fiction, his rules. We can rationalize how much culture is lost/forgotten/transmuted by bringing up whatever examples we like, but, in the books, if it changed that much in 20,000, then it did because that's how Wolfe conceives of cultural erosion/mutation.\n\n\nBut the question it does beg to me seems to be that of why the Sun is dying. In 20,000 years, it wouldn't burn out naturally, right? And if it was artificial, then who/why? That seems to be the real issue of the time lag, and I think it's been hashed out here before.\n\n\n\n\nOf course. But what does that distinction impact, exactly?\n\nWe know that old cultures were revived after the computer age, and with \nthem our old languages. These could not have and in fact did not survive \n20,000 years.\n\nWe know or suspect that the Commonwealth is loosely based on Argentina. \n\"Millions of years\" is not long enough for continental drift to reverse \nitself, for the Andes to erode, and for a new Andes to rise. That would \ntake many hundreds of millions. Maybe that is in fact what we are to \nconclude, although to my knowledge no one has done so.\n\nThe 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. I always thought it was way too \nlow. Still, I don't buy hundreds of millions either. Alternative \ntheories are available.\n\nSo, is Mantis just way wrong?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 11:52 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOnce again.\n\nTBotNS is far enough in the future that mountains containing the ruins\nof long-buried cities have risen. This is not on the order of 20 or 30\nthousand years; it is millions.\n\nOn Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Gerry Quinn? wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff\nI believe the 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. Since no major changes\ncould have occurred from \"now\" to Severian's time anyway, the\nsignificant changes are cultural, not geographic. Yet European languages\nare still spoken on the Whorl; even if they had to be revived for\nTyphon's purposes, they still survived that long.\nEven in Severian’s time scholars retain some understanding of English, as we\nknow from Thea’s disquisition about the renaming of Verthandi and Skuld.\n\nThe atmosphere of BotNS has always reminded me of Robert Silverberg’s\nNightwings, which is, if I recall correctly, set around the year 30000.\nHere the names of certain cities (Rome and Jorslem) survive. Just as in\nBotNS, the world is pseudo-feudal with high-tech elements. Earth is the\nclapped-out remnant of a hubristic interstellar empire and is now under the\nownership of aliens.\n\nAs far as I know Wolfe has never acknowledged any literary debt to\nNightwings, although it was published around 1970. Of course it may well be\nthat he never read it and his and Silverberg’s visions evolved\nindependently, albeit obviously from similar roots in Vance and elsewhere.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:27:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320251101.42647.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nBut the question it does beg to me seems to be that of why the Sun is dying.\nIn 20,000 years, it wouldn't burn out naturally, right? And if it was\nartificial, then who/why? That seems to be the real issue of the time lag,\nand I think it's been hashed out here before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know that the Sun is not dying naturally, that a black hole has\nbeen planted in it. But I believe that a few thousand years would be\ntoo short a time for _that_ to make the described difference...though\nTyphon says that it's happening faster than predicted, so current\ntheory is of relatively little value here." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320251737.45741.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:35:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. I get the concerns, but, at the same time, it seems like a lot of the reasons given for a particular timeline have an odd mix of \"real\" and \"sf\" science: for example, you're worrying about how long a black hole would take to slowly destroy a star. Fair enough. But we're also granting a science that can create black holes wherever they want, like in the middle of a burning sun. Why are some scientific \"facts\" hard and fast and others very loose?\n\nI get the worries, though. It bugged me when I read that Wolfe said 20,000 years because the whole atmosphere of the book seemed millions of years to me, and the dying sun (artificially or not) confirmed that in my first sense of the story. Plus, the miners who dug through layers of culture seemed to require much more than thousands of years to really make that scene \"wondrous\" for me.\n\nBut, again, putting any actual number on this requires a lot of \"IFs\" and questionable assumptions, it seems. In the end, I prefer it to be \"a really long time\" and not knowing exactly is a more appropriate sense of history that Severian has throughout most of the book. This is one of those cases where I prefer it when the \"clues\" don't add up to a consistent picture." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:40:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320251737.45741.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nIn the end, I prefer it to be \"a really\nlong time\" and not knowing exactly is a more appropriate sense of history\nthat Severian has throughout most of the book. This is one of those cases\nwhere I prefer it when the \"clues\" don't add up to a consistent picture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Man's got a point. Perhaps \"when\" is not one of the mysteries we're\nintended to solve -- and really, other than satisfying our SF-nerd,\nanal-retentive desire to nail everything down (to which I plead as\nguilty as anyone), what difference does it make? Twenty thousand and a\nfew hundred million years are both (honestly) far enough into the\nfuture that our minds can't really hold them. After all, if you go\nonly a few thousand years into the _past_ you're into the shadows of\nmyth and uncertainty." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "athornton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:51:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not putting too much stock in this but the map of Oz is famous for its\neast/west reversal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 2, 2011 8:38 AM, \"Lee Berman\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: It would be clever of Wolfe to have invented a world\nthat is totally\nfree of Orientalism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the Xanthic lands are mentioned. But I don't think we know where\nthey are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Does anyone know offhand the textual proof that the\nAndes are\nactually in the east?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good question. It was something I'd rested on precedent for a while.\nSeverian\ndoes move north and east from Nessus to get to the mountains so Andes in\nthe\neast was the assumption.\n\nBut this map (originating with Mantis, I believe) explains it with the\nreverse\nidea: Nessus (Buenos Aires) is on the west coast of S. America. I had\nthought\nthe updated LU put the Andes in the east but now I have to go check.\n(I like the sea monsters. I guess the dragon/eel is Abaia. Perhaps the\nwhirlpool\nis Scylla's counterpoint, Charybdis. But who is the crab?)\nhttp://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/gifbin/p4/sunmaplg.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: I think there is little to be gained in understanding Urth as\nanything\nbut is the future of our Earth. Perhaps there is some geekish appeal\npositing that\nit is the future of an Earth in some parallel-dimension/universe. But for\nunderstanding the story and backdrop, there is little value one way or\nthe other.\nI think the interest in this debate in founded in ret-conning Briah to\nbe theologically orthodox Christian. But with all the appeals to a\ngnostic framework in the story, why bother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see the logic. Parallel or series universes are super-nifty cool Star\nTrekky fare.\nBut for this story, I don't think the understanding to be gained by\nviewing Urth as a\npast iteration ofEarth is very geeky in nature at all. It think it is\nalmost purely\nreligious. I don't think there is an attempt to make Briah Orthodox\nChristian.\n\nAs previously mentioned, I think the crux of the disagreement is whether\nthere is a\nChrist at all in Briah. If there is, Urth is the future of Earth. If there\nis no\nChrist, Urth is some previous version. It all boils down to that.(and it\nmakes sense\nthat some here would be more open to the idea of a universe without Christ\nthan others.)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB17530.30402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:52:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. But that approach involves inventing new mechanisms, which are \ngenerally to be avoided.\n\nInteresting thought, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 12:23 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI have no problem with hundreds of millions of years. On the other\nhand, I suspect that orogeny can take place much faster than that\ngiven the right stimuli; and a technocosmic culture might provide such\nstimuli -- if we can affect the world's climate, as we apparently\nhave, then what might a gravity-wielding civilization do to its\ngeology?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB17616.8080708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:55:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 12:40 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nCraig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the end, I prefer it to be \"a really\nlong time\" and not knowing exactly is a more appropriate sense of history\nthat Severian has throughout most of the book. This is one of those cases\nwhere I prefer it when the \"clues\" don't add up to a consistent picture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Man's got a point. Perhaps \"when\" is not one of the mysteries we're\nintended to solve -- and really, other than satisfying our SF-nerd,\nanal-retentive desire to nail everything down (to which I plead as\nguilty as anyone), what difference does it make? Twenty thousand and a\nfew hundred million years are both (honestly) far enough into the\nfuture that our minds can't really hold them. After all, if you go\nonly a few thousand years into the _past_ you're into the shadows of\nmyth and uncertainty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. Still, we ought to be able to answer the question: Are the \nmountains in the east?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB17662.5010608@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T16:57:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that is intriguing. I don't see Urth as being particularly Ozzy in \ninspiration, but there it is---a precedent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 12:51 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nNot putting too much stock in this but the map of Oz is famous for its \neast/west reversal." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB17877.706@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-02T17:05:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fact, while \"artistic illusion\" in BoTNS (or coherence of details) is \nextraordinary,\nit is not perfect, and I don't think we should try to get all \n\"scientific\" consequences.\n\nOne illustration: it is said that the flyer of the autarch is naturally \nafloat by\nanti-gravity, and that it is created by some amount of antimatter. \n(Explanation\nthat the autarch gives to Severian. It is kept by ropes before flight.)\nDoes repulsive or attractive\nforce exist between matter and antimatter is not clear\nfor our science (I think the experiments concerning the reaction of \nantimatter\nto gravitational field are only planned). Let us take this as an assumption\n(author's right). But... But antimatter violently reacts\nwith matter. Of course inside the flyer it may be kept isolated (for\nexample, by magnetic fields etc.). But after the flyer is hit, it fells. \nWhat\nhappened with antimatter and buoyancy? If it was lost, where was the \nexplosion?\n(Many megatons at least.)\n\nI think, the same is with this idea of black hole inside the sun.\n(Description is merely not correct.)\nBlack hole sucks violently matter into it. Its mass grows, its sucks\nmore quickly. The process is exponentially accelerating. The idea\nof slow death of the sun doesn't work. (In fact, core collapse in\nsupernovae takes fractions of seconds.)\n\nBut maybe Gene Wolfe didn't verify it scientifically.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the question it does beg to me seems to be that of why the Sun is dying.\nIn 20,000 years, it wouldn't burn out naturally, right? And if it was\nartificial, then who/why? That seems to be the real issue of the time lag,\nand I think it's been hashed out here before.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know that the Sun is not dying naturally, that a black hole has\nbeen planted in it. But I believe that a few thousand years would be\ntoo short a time for _that_ to make the described difference...though\nTyphon says that it's happening faster than predicted, so current\ntheory is of relatively little value here.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T20:12:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB17877.706@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer: In the end, I prefer it to be \"a really long time\" and not knowing \nexactly is a more appropriate sense of history that Severian has throughout most of \nthe book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI tend to agree. While Wolfe does a great job using state-of-the-art 70's science to\nback up his story, I think the deeper underpinnings of the story are more social and \nreligious. As a work of literature, the story must take precedence over science." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The question of whether Urth had a Christ is one that you find significant, \nbut it is only in your theory that it has any relevance to the which cycle of the universe \nUrth exists in. There is plenty of textual evidence, particularly in Long Sun, suggesting \nthat Urth did indeed have a Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAs has been noted in the past, I think the evidence is more for a Jesus than a Christ.\nI think you understand the difference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maytera Marble: \"When we were outside like him [The Outsider], living in the Short Sun Whorl \nbefore this one was finished and peopled, we worshipped him. No doubt you knew that already, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Patera....\"It wasn't called manteion, either. Something else.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: In Typhon’s empire, Christianity has retreated to the downtrodden and disparaged: \nthat is to say, it is mainly to be found among the chems." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat is a reasonable theory, Gerry. I respect it even while finding it less probably than other \ntheories. As previously noted, The Outsider is persistently presented as a dark (not evil) god. \nWolfe has said Severian is an aspect of The Outsider and Severian himself has become a dark \n(though not evil) god by the end of UotNS. (and when the dark gods don't come, their \"place is\ntaken by a demon.\")\n \nUnless Severian is Jesus or his second coming, I can't see the Outsider as our Jehovah. As a\ndemiurge, The Outsider would make an ideal god for chems, presumably being more material and \nless of the spirit than a human being. Moreover, the greatest masters of chem programming are,\nwho else, but the dark mechanics.\n \nPerhaps you were thinking that the word Matera Marble was searching for was \"church\"? I think \nit was \"temple\". Manteion is a place for the worship of false gods, Pas and his family. I think \nin Briah the worship of the true god is worship of the dark, mysterious Outsider. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T20:19:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nUnless Severian is Jesus or his second coming, I can't see the Outsider as our Jehovah." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see the connection. Severian (Wolfe has made clear in\ninterview) is an _imitatio Christi_, not a Christ. But why would this\nkeep the Outsider from being the One God of the Abrahamic faiths? It\nseems that he leads Silk into something very like Christian morals and\npractice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think\nin Briah the worship of the true god is worship of the dark, mysterious Outsider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB1AF71.3030309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T21:00:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/2/2011 4:12 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nMaytera Marble: \"When we were outside like him [The Outsider], living in the Short Sun Whorl before this one was finished and peopled, we worshipped him. No doubt you knew that already, Patera....\"It wasn't called manteion, either. Something else.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: In Typhon’s empire, Christianity has retreated to the downtrodden and disparaged:\nthat is to say, it is mainly to be found among the chems." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is a reasonable theory, Gerry. I respect it even while finding it less probably than other\ntheories. As previously noted, The Outsider is persistently presented as a dark (not evil) god.\nWolfe has said Severian is an aspect of The Outsider and Severian himself has become a dark\n(though not evil) god by the end of UotNS. (and when the dark gods don't come, their \"place is\ntaken by a demon.\")\n\nUnless Severian is Jesus or his second coming, I can't see the Outsider as our Jehovah. As a\ndemiurge, The Outsider would make an ideal god for chems, presumably being more material and\nless of the spirit than a human being. Moreover, the greatest masters of chem programming are,\nwho else, but the dark mechanics.\n\nPerhaps you were thinking that the word Matera Marble was searching for was \"church\"? I think\nit was \"temple\". Manteion is a place for the worship of false gods, Pas and his family. I think\nin Briah the worship of the true god is worship of the dark, mysterious Outsider." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you think it was \"temple\" and not \"church\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T21:22:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The question of whether Urth had a Christ is one that you find significant, \nbut it is only in your theory that it has any relevance to the which cycle of the universe \nUrth exists in. There is plenty of textual evidence, particularly in Long Sun, suggesting \nthat Urth did indeed have a Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As has been noted in the past, I think the evidence is more for a Jesus than a Christ.\nI think you understand the difference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is the evidence other than it fitting your theological-cosmological framework? I think there is much evidence for a Jesus Christ. If Urth’s Mohammed preached of Allah, things seem to have gone much as they have on Earth. It is indicated to Silk that the Outsider possessed and enlightened Jesus — in Silk’s terms that is as close as we can come. \nAnd what would be the point of Silk being sent visions of what would appear to be some kind of failed Jesus? \nI also don’t think the Outsider’s iconography is exceptionally dark, except insofar as it appears to Silk for circumstantial reasons, in that the Outsider is god of the world outside the Whorl, which in our case starts with sunshine and blue skies, but in Silk’s case starts with the vacuum of outer space. As I’ve noted, the descriptions of the Outsider in the casts of characters seem to resemble in some ways the Persons of the Trinity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maytera Marble: \"When we were outside like him [The Outsider], living in the Short Sun Whorl \nbefore this one was finished and peopled, we worshipped him. No doubt you knew that already, \nPatera....\"It wasn't called manteion, either. Something else.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: In Typhon’s empire, Christianity has retreated to the downtrodden and disparaged: \nthat is to say, it is mainly to be found among the chems." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is a reasonable theory, Gerry. I respect it even while finding it less probably than other \ntheories. As previously noted, The Outsider is persistently presented as a dark (not evil) god. \nWolfe has said Severian is an aspect of The Outsider and Severian himself has become a dark \n(though not evil) god by the end of UotNS. (and when the dark gods don't come, their \"place is\ntaken by a demon.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nA White Fountain seems like the very opposite of darkness to me! \nThe God of All Things (at least outside the Whorl) is the god of Light and Dark. of outer space and of the blazing stars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless Severian is Jesus or his second coming, I can't see the Outsider as our Jehovah. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can see him quite easily as a future concept of the Christian God, and thus derived from Jehovah, albeit not understood precisely as Jehovah initially was. \n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T21:49:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nAs has been noted in the past, I think the evidence is more for a Jesus than a Christ.\nI think you understand the difference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there is lots of evidence for a person who played the role of\nthe historical Jesus: it's not clear to me that we can detemine, from\nthe actual content of the works, whether that person is indeed God\nincarnate or just a prophet. (I think that the true God, the Abrahamic\nGiod, is indeed active in that world, so if he was just a prophet, he\nwas a prophet of the true God.)\n\nI'm beginning to incline to the 'just a prophet' view, because of the\n'aspects of the Outsider' passage in OBW. These 'aspects' seem to be\npeople through whom the Outsider reveals himself, and they are treated\nas if they are all equal in signficance, which would be odd if there\nwas a person in that world who actually _was_ the Outsider, made\nmanifest. Admittedly this is just the Rajan's view of things, so may\nbe wrong; on the other hand, it is confirmed by the many voices which\nSilk hears during his enlightenment, which the Rajan identifes with\nthe aspects." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T21:53:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nA White Fountain seems like the very opposite of darkness to me!\nThe God of All Things (at least outside the Whorl) is the god of Light and Dark. of outer space and of the blazing stars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and Severian as a Dark Sun manifests both. On the other hand, I\nthink that from one point of view you can see Severian as manifesting\nthe dark aspect of God, and Silk as manifesting the light aspect." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB1BE3C.8050306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T22:03:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 5:49 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As has been noted in the past, I think the evidence is more for a Jesus than a Christ.\nI think you understand the difference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there is lots of evidence for a person who played the role of\nthe historical Jesus: it's not clear to me that we can detemine, from\nthe actual content of the works, whether that person is indeed God\nincarnate or just a prophet. (I think that the true God, the Abrahamic\nGiod, is indeed active in that world, so if he was just a prophet, he\nwas a prophet of the true God.)\n\nI'm beginning to incline to the 'just a prophet' view, because of the\n'aspects of the Outsider' passage in OBW. These 'aspects' seem to be\npeople through whom the Outsider reveals himself, and they are treated\nas if they are all equal in signficance, which would be odd if there\nwas a person in that world who actually _was_ the Outsider, made\nmanifest. Admittedly this is just the Rajan's view of things, so may\nbe wrong; on the other hand, it is confirmed by the many voices which\nSilk hears during his enlightenment, which the Rajan identifes with\nthe aspects." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm inclined to this too, but why would Silk have visions of a man with \nno extraordinary link to the Outsider? Clearly this Jesus was at least \nan \"aspect\" or \"host\" of the Outsider (though the O doesn't seem to \npossess people quite the way the other gods do).\n\nThe question is whether he was the ONLY such aspect. This brings one \nback to the \"which universe\" question. But it seems unimportant to the \nstory." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T22:09:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB1BE3C.8050306@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nThe 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you know where, precisely?\n\n I always thought it was way too" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "low. Still, I don't buy hundreds of millions either. Alternative\ntheories are available." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing that causes problems for 20,000 years is that the\nConciliator is said at one point to have lived 30,000 years ago. I'm\nnot sure if that's an estimate of Typhon's time - in which case it is\ncertainly retconned later - or whether it means that this was the date\nof the first in a series of figures who have contributed to the image\nof the Conciliator - possibly Jesus or his equivalent. But in any case\nit would seem to put Severian more than 20,000 years from now.\n\nAs you point out, the apparent inconsitency between the seemingly\nenormous physical distance of our time from Severian's, and the\nlesser, though still great, cultural distance, can be overcome by\nreference to the computers restoring memories to humans - indeed it\nseems quite plausible that that story was inserted precisely to\novercome this problem, which implies Wolfe was thinking in terms of an\nenormous distance at that point.\n\nIt's well-known that there seems to be some wobbling on Typhon's date.\nAlso, _Long Sun_ reads as if it is a lot closer to our time than _New\nSun_. Again, we can explain this by reference to the computers\nrestoring memories, together with the possibility that Typhon is\nengaging in a deliberate historical reconstruction to some degree. But\n_Long Sun_ was originally planned independently of _New Sun_; can it\nbe that Wolfe initially did think of it as closer to our time, and\nlater, when he decided to integrate it with _New Sun_, had difficulty\nfinding a date which fitted both?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB1C1C3.2050709@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T22:18:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Craig Brewer wrote:\nBut the question it does beg to me seems to be that of why the Sun is dying.\nIn 20,000 years, it wouldn't burn out naturally, right? And if it was\nartificial, then who/why? That seems to be the real issue of the time lag,\nand I think it's been hashed out here before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWe know that the Sun is not dying naturally, that a black hole has\nbeen planted in it. But I believe that a few thousand years would be\ntoo short a time for _that_ to make the described difference...though\nTyphon says that it's happening faster than predicted, so current\ntheory is of relatively little value here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe has said many times that tBotNS is about what would happen if \nhumanity remained until it's the planet's resources have been depleted. \nHe likened it to a family with a fabulously wealthy ancestor that now \nlives in the same house but desperately poor because they have run \nthrough all the money.\n\nIt feels to me that this would take longer than 20,000 years. Still, \nmaybe not. Some people think we'll run though our inheritance of \npetroleum formed from 500 million years of sea life within the next \ncentury. So, it is what it is. 20,000 is by far plenty of time for our \nage to become myth many times over. No one reads cuneiform today. In \nnorthern Iraq, there is a 12,000 year old temple, employing intricate \nrelief art , yet we know nothing of significance about civilization \nolder than 5,000 years.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5C593AE08C2242FEAB483BFB4E45B7B2@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T22:23:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But\n_Long Sun_ was originally planned independently of _New Sun_; can it\nbe that Wolfe initially did think of it as closer to our time, and\nlater, when he decided to integrate it with _New Sun_, had difficulty\nfinding a date which fitted both?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot about that — it’s a very good point. \nClearly Wolfe reckoned it could work well enough anyway, and indeed I think he is right. But he obviously was forced to set up a tangle of threads that aren’t that easy to link up perfectly.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320273540.69920.YahooMailNeo@web114706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T22:39:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB14E96.50902@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?From: David Stockhoff \nOn 11/2/2011 9:09 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it hard to believe that Severian’s descriptions of geography are detailed enough to be identifiable with confidence as a particular distorted version of Earth’s geography." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that's why I asked for any information about the evidence for it. Mantis has the mountains in the east. If the Commonwealth is based on Argentina, >then those mountains are the Andes and the continent is reversed. That would require that all the continents are reversed, because tectonic motion\ncreated the Andes where South America pushed into the Pacific." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gyoll flows roughly south to the west coast of the continent. At the climatic scene on the beach when Severian takes his boots off (CotA, Ch. XXXI), \"Land--Nessus, the House Absolute, and all the rest--lay to the east; west lay the sea.\"? And that's near the mouth of Gyoll, as I recall.\n\nOn the other hand, Severian remembers when he's in the mountains that Master Palaemon had told him a pestilential \"coastal jungle\" lay to the west (SotL XXIII). It doesn't sound like the mountains are so far east that we're in a mirror image of South America.\n\nThe Commonwealth is clearly in the southern hemisphere, and there are far more suggestions of South America than of Africa or Australasia, but I don't think we're supposed to connect it with the real present-day South America, still less connect the mountains with the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for the time, we don’t know it, though 20000 years seems a bit short to me, not so much in terms of theoretical history, but in terms of literary style. Of course such information as we get about the age of Urth is filled with contradictions anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe the 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe. Since no major changes could have occurred from \"now\" to Severian's time anyway, the significant changes\nare cultural, not geographic. Yet European languages are still spoken on the Whorl; even if they had to be revived for Typhon's purposes, they still survived\nthat long." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the afterword to SotT, Wolfe (the fictional Wolfe the translator) says he has no idea what ancient language he has rendered as Latin. Thus I have serious doubts that the language he rendered as Spanish in?/Long Sun/ and /Short Sun/?is supposed to be Spanish in the sense that we can draw conclusions from it, and likewise for the other languages. (Unanswerable question: is \"Urbasecundus\" supposed to be a translation from the same language as \"Terminus Est\"?)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<701ee0cc720cc060dde8506ca410d05d.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-02T22:59:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, November 2, 2011 10:52, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOnce again.\n\nTBotNS is far enough in the future that mountains containing the ruins\nof long-buried cities have risen. This is not on the order of 20 or 30\nthousand years; it is millions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The cliff face with strata of artifacts could easily be the result of an\nearthquake, or it could have been a mountain that was extensively tunneled\nand filled with artifacts the left to chiliads of neglect, like Mt Typhon.\nRecognizeable constellations between Sev's and Apu's time put an upper\nlimit of about 100K years on their separation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB1D1F0.8080302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T23:27:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 6:09 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The 20,000-year figure is from Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you know where, precisely?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, but it's been quoted here---from an interview, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I always thought it was way too low. Still, I don't buy hundreds of millions either. Alternative\ntheories are available.\nOne thing that causes problems for 20,000 years is that the\nConciliator is said at one point to have lived 30,000 years ago. I'm\nnot sure if that's an estimate of Typhon's time - in which case it is\ncertainly retconned later - or whether it means that this was the date\nof the first in a series of figures who have contributed to the image\nof the Conciliator - possibly Jesus or his equivalent. But in any case\nit would seem to put Severian more than 20,000 years from now.\n\nAs you point out, the apparent inconsitency between the seemingly\nenormous physical distance of our time from Severian's, and the\nlesser, though still great, cultural distance, can be overcome by\nreference to the computers restoring memories to humans - indeed it\nseems quite plausible that that story was inserted precisely to\novercome this problem, which implies Wolfe was thinking in terms of an\nenormous distance at that point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does ... but it would work as well (or better) for 20,000 as for \n20-200 million." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's well-known that there seems to be some wobbling on Typhon's date.\nAlso, _Long Sun_ reads as if it is a lot closer to our time than _New\nSun_. Again, we can explain this by reference to the computers\nrestoring memories, together with the possibility that Typhon is\nengaging in a deliberate historical reconstruction to some degree. But\n_Long Sun_ was originally planned independently of _New Sun_; can it\nbe that Wolfe initially did think of it as closer to our time, and\nlater, when he decided to integrate it with _New Sun_, had difficulty\nfinding a date which fitted both?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always felt the two stories did not quite fit, even though they \nintertwine. One element I initially thought DID fit was the appearance \nof the inhumi as an explanation for Sev's monstrous \"space butterfly.\" I \nread Long Sun before I read UotNS, and had no idea about Tzadkiel, so I \nwas utterly convinced of this identification. When I had to give it up, \nthey went back to being more like two different stories jammed together. \nShort Sun seems to have been in part an attempt to bridge that gap. It \nwould certainly account for some of the inconsistencies and fudging.\n\nThe Old Sun presents a similar problem, as has been said. My initial \nbelief was that Urth was an incredibly old Earth---on the order of a \nbillion years---and the sun was dying of old age. Then the black hole is \nmentioned, which casts doubt on at least the necessity of so high an \nestimate. Other evidence conspires to bring it down further.\n\nI wonder if Wolfe initially wanted to go high and long and then found \nthat he had trouble accounting for Urth's history. I have no trouble \nimagining a hundred galactic civilizations (but 100 x 10,000 years = \nonly 1,000,000!) rising and falling before the world ends, but that \nmight have made his sub-story a very busy one.\n\nAnd no language could survive that long in ANY form unless the computers \nran Earth very well and peacefully during that span." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB1D3AD.7070904@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-02T23:35:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320273540.69920.YahooMailNeo@web114706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 6:39 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nGyoll flows roughly south to the west coast of the continent. At the climatic scene on the beach when Severian takes his boots off (CotA, Ch. XXXI), \"Land--Nessus, the House Absolute, and all the rest--lay to the east; west lay the sea.\" And that's near the mouth of Gyoll, as I recall.\n \nOn the other hand, Severian remembers when he's in the mountains that Master Palaemon had told him a pestilential \"coastal jungle\" lay to the west (SotL XXIII). It doesn't sound like the mountains are so far east that we're in a mirror image of South America." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's it---thanks! But it sounds to me exactly like a mirror image of \nSouth America.\n\nThe Andes are not all in Chile and Peru. There is a mountaintop in \nnorthern Argentina where children were ritually exposed and stayed \nfrozen for a few thousand years. Near Salta, I believe (Saltus)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nThe Commonwealth is clearly in the southern hemisphere, and there are far more suggestions of South America than of Africa or Australasia, but I don't think we're supposed to connect it with the real present-day South America, still less connect the mountains with the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly. And yet, it's so obvious, how can we NOT connect it? \nTherefore, how can it not have been intended?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320296754.18218.YahooMailNeo@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T05:05:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB1D3AD.7070904@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/2/2011 6:39 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Gyoll flows roughly south to the west coast of the continent. At the \nclimatic" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or \"climactic\", as some prefer to spell it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "scene on the beach when Severian takes his boots off (CotA, Ch. XXXI), \n\"Land--Nessus, the House Absolute, and all the rest--lay to the east; west \nlay the sea.\"? And that's near the mouth of Gyoll, as I recall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? On the other hand, Severian remembers when he's in the mountains that \nMaster Palaemon had told him a pestilential \"coastal jungle\" lay to \nthe west (SotL XXIII). It doesn't sound like the mountains are so far east \nthat we're in a mirror image of South America. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's it---thanks! But it sounds to me exactly like a mirror image of South \nAmerica.\n\nThe Andes are not all in Chile and Peru. There is a mountaintop in northern \nArgentina where children were ritually exposed and stayed frozen for a few \nthousand years. Near Salta, I believe (Saltus)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Severian is thinking about the coastal jungle, he's come \"nearly to the waist\nof the world\". So on a mirror image of South America, he's in southern Ecuador\nor northern Peru, and he went west (our east), he'd go maybe 2000 miles before\nhe got to the coast. I don't think he'd call that \"coastal forest\". Of course we can\nalways imagine Palaemon was wrong or something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "? The Commonwealth is clearly in the southern hemisphere, and there are far \nmore suggestions of South America than of Africa or Australasia, but I don't \nthink we're supposed to connect it with the real present-day South America, \nstill less connect the mountains with the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possibly. And yet, it's so obvious, how can we NOT connect it? Therefore, \nhow can it not have been intended?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure it was intended. There's a South American feeling (at least literarily--\nI've never been there). No doubt some aspects of Lake Diuturna were inspired\nby Lake Titicaca, for instance. But I don't think we can say Lake Diuturna /is/\nLake Titicaca, or say, \"At this point Severian is near a place where children were\nritually exposed, which tells us something about what he encountered here.\"\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T12:10:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320296754.18218.YahooMailNeo@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l: TBotNS is far enough in the future that mountains containing the ruins\nof long-buried cities have risen. This is not on the order of 20 or 30\nthousand years; it is millions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The cliff face with strata of artifacts could easily be the result of an\nearthquake, or it could have been a mountain that was extensively tunneled\nand filled with artifacts the left to chiliads of neglect, like Mt Typhon.\nRecognizeable constellations between Sev's and Apu's time put an upper\nlimit of about 100K years on their separation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree with Dan'l. Earthquakes and mining can invert or disrupt many layers\nof rock strata with imbedded fossils and artifacts but they can't create them. \nOnly time can do that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T12:31:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: I'm beginning to incline to the 'just a prophet' view, \nbecause of the 'aspects of the Outsider' passage in OBW. These 'aspects' \nseem to be people through whom the Outsider reveals himself, and they are \ntreated as if they are all equal in signficance, which would be odd if there\nwas a person in that world who actually _was_ the Outsider, made manifest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this is a good point (not coincidentally since it supports my current\nview of the Sun Series, heh).\n \nIt seems to be a defining aspect of Christianity that all of God's earthy presence\nis focused into this one individual, Jesus Christ. Unlike the pagan gods there are\nno pantheons, or god-human matings and demigods floating around. Even in contrast to\nthe Old Testament, most Christians don't see God or Christ appearing in a burning bush \nor pillar of fire or through some Jacob-wrestling angel. Since the appearance of Jesus,\nall earthly connections to God must go through Christ. (please correct me if I'm wrong \non this).\n \nThere must be a reason Wolfe puts Severian as part of a quartite pantheon at the end \nof UotNS. I think there is a point to Wolfe having multiple versons and appearances \nand access points to the Outsider and to the appearances of real demons (be they \nelectronic, blood sucking or underwater) in the absence of the Outsider. The Outsider\nis surely a good dude; as good as it gets in Briah. But without the presence of one \nUrthly (Whorly, Bluesy) path to him, he seems pretty pagan to me. \n \nOr are we supposed to assume the future of Blue will have a Church of SilkHornity? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2A0DC.3040807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-03T14:10:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320296754.18218.YahooMailNeo@web114701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/3/2011 1:05 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: David Stockhoff\nOn 11/2/2011 6:39 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Gyoll flows roughly south to the west coast of the continent. At the\nclimatic\nOr \"climactic\", as some prefer to spell it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "scene on the beach when Severian takes his boots off (CotA, Ch. XXXI),\n\"Land--Nessus, the House Absolute, and all the rest--lay to the east; west\nlay the sea.\" And that's near the mouth of Gyoll, as I recall.\n On the other hand, Severian remembers when he's in the mountains that\nMaster Palaemon had told him a pestilential \"coastal jungle\" lay to\nthe west (SotL XXIII). It doesn't sound like the mountains are so far east\nthat we're in a mirror image of South America." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's it---thanks! But it sounds to me exactly like a mirror image of South\nAmerica.\n\nThe Andes are not all in Chile and Peru. There is a mountaintop in northern\nArgentina where children were ritually exposed and stayed frozen for a few\nthousand years. Near Salta, I believe (Saltus)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Severian is thinking about the coastal jungle, he's come \"nearly to the waist\nof the world\". So on a mirror image of South America, he's in southern Ecuador\nor northern Peru, and he went west (our east), he'd go maybe 2000 miles before\nhe got to the coast. I don't think he'd call that \"coastal forest\". Of course we can\nalways imagine Palaemon was wrong or something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we're dealing with a problem of level of detail on huge scales \nthat make us uncomfortable (recall GW's comment about distances to \nLune). Sev's information is truthfully not very detailed at all, but it \nis enough for a rough idea that is needed (and which is itself \ncompatible with the medieval mindset of his civilization regarding such \nthings). Palaemon told Sev to avoid the jungle, not to check it out or \noverthink it.\n\nAmazonia is indeed an inland-basin jungle---but it is coastal as well, \nas the jungle extends to the rive mouth. But only if Palaemon has any \nidea of ecosystems and the significance of watersheds would he care \nabout the difference between the Amazon jungle and the Guyana jungle. To \nhim, it's all the same---it's the jungle that mattes, not which \necosystem it's in.\n\nAnd since the \"coastal jungle\" is described as \"pestilential,\" one can \nassume Palaemon's/Severian's understanding of eco-geography to be not \nonly limited but quite biased and wrong-headed. So yes, Palaemon is \nwrong, but not in the way you suggest. He just knows it runs to the \nwestern coast.\n\nNote also that my mirror-image theory hardly requires perfection, any \nmore than any other does. Urth's \"genotype\" is the same, whether \nreversed or not, but its \"phenotype\" is bound to be different." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " The Commonwealth is clearly in the southern hemisphere, and there are far\nmore suggestions of South America than of Africa or Australasia, but I don't\nthink we're supposed to connect it with the real present-day South America,\nstill less connect the mountains with the Andes or Nessus with Buenos Aires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Possibly. And yet, it's so obvious, how can we NOT connect it? Therefore,\nhow can it not have been intended?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure it was intended. There's a South American feeling (at least literarily--\nI've never been there). No doubt some aspects of Lake Diuturna were inspired\nby Lake Titicaca, for instance. But I don't think we can say Lake Diuturna /is/\nLake Titicaca, or say, \"At this point Severian is near a place where children were\nritually exposed, which tells us something about what he encountered here.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not literally, no. I don't mean to suggest that. I think the \nCommonwealth's continent is based on what amounts to a glance at a map \nof South America---a general impression. (Anyway, the children were \nfound only about 20 years ago.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320333433.46534.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:17:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<5C593AE08C2242FEAB483BFB4E45B7B2@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Wed, 11/2/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 2, 2011, 3:23 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Long Sun_ was originally planned independently of _New Sun_; can it" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "be that Wolfe initially did think of it as closer to our time, and" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "later, when he decided to integrate it with _New Sun_, had difficulty" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "finding a date which fitted both?\n\n\n\nI forgot about that — it’s a very good point. \n\n\n\nClearly Wolfe reckoned it could work well enough anyway, and indeed I think he is right. But he obviously was forced to set up a tangle of threads that aren’t that easy to link up perfectly.\n\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\"Planned indepedently\" - what does Andrew mean here? It was planned after New Sun, but he clearly from the very beginning wanted it to be in the same universe. Pas as Typhon is not a late addition to the text, it's written in from the very very beginning. He didn't add those connections in in second draft.\n\n\n\nWolfe had his timeline of relative events planned out from the beginning of Long Sun, in my opinion. My his idea of the futurity of Urth changed but the relative timelines of the two series are not subject to that kind of fudging." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320333719.51157.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:21:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320333433.46534.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Thu, 11/3/11, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 8:17 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n--- On Wed, 11/2/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, November 2, 2011, 3:23 PM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Long Sun_ was originally planned independently of _New Sun_; can it" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "be that Wolfe initially did think of it as closer to our time, and" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "later, when he decided to integrate it with _New Sun_, had difficulty" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "finding a date which fitted both?\n\n\n\nI forgot about that — it’s a very good point. \n\n\n\nClearly Wolfe reckoned it could work well enough anyway, and indeed I think he is right. But he obviously was forced to set up a tangle of threads that aren’t that easy to link up perfectly.\n\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\"Planned indepedently\" - what does Andrew mean here? It was planned after New Sun, but he clearly from the very beginning wanted it to be in the same universe. Pas as Typhon is not a late addition to the text, it's written in from the very very beginning. He didn't add those connections in in second draft.\n\n\n\nWolfe had his timeline of relative events planned out from the beginning of Long Sun, in my opinion. My his idea of the futurity of Urth changed but the relative timelines of the two series are not subject to that kind of fudging.\n\nShould be \"maybe? his idea of the futurity of urth changed\" sorry can't type today." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T15:35:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there is lots of evidence for a person who played the role of\nthe historical Jesus: it's not clear to me that we can detemine, from\nthe actual content of the works, whether that person is indeed God\nincarnate or just a prophet. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is difficult even after the passing of a mere 2000 years. It is suggested in one book that Allah may be another name for the Outsider. Many of those who currently think so believe as Silk does in this regard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I think that the true God, the Abrahamic\nGiod, is indeed active in that world, so if he was just a prophet, he\nwas a prophet of the true God.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm beginning to incline to the 'just a prophet' view, because of the\n'aspects of the Outsider' passage in OBW. These 'aspects' seem to be\npeople through whom the Outsider reveals himself, and they are treated\nas if they are all equal in signficance, which would be odd if there\nwas a person in that world who actually _was_ the Outsider, made\nmanifest. Admittedly this is just the Rajan's view of things, so may\nbe wrong; on the other hand, it is confirmed by the many voices which\nSilk hears during his enlightenment, which the Rajan identifes with\nthe aspects." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Catholic interpretation of God already includes several aspects, equal in significance.\nI don’t think the universe of Urth is intended to contain a simulacrum of the Catholic Church of the twentieth century AD, with a Pope — android or otherwise - in the Vatican and all doctrines of today preserved intact. The Rosary carried by Silk and other similar symbols in the books are *translations* by Wolfe of the semiotics of the far future (whatever the cycle) world into today’s equivalents. He explains this process quite clearly in his afterword to, I think, the very first book in the series. The Solar Cycle is a science fantasy. It’s not a theological document, still less is it a hermetic scroll intended to embody Wolfe’s secret adherence to Gnosticism.\nWe are not told in the series whether Jesus was God Incarnate or a man possessed and enlightened by the Outsider. In the language of the characters of the Solar Cycle, or at least the latter two parts of it, he was the latter. If you want to translate the latter as the former, or as something more akin to the latter in our language, either seems perfectly reasonable without doing violence to the text as a whole. That does not mean that every possible translation is reasonable.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T18:02:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: But I don't think we can say Lake Diuturna /is/\nLake Titicaca, or say, \"At this point Severian is near a place where children were\nritually exposed, which tells us something about what he encountered here.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHm. I'm not so quick to dismiss. The Inca rulers of the area were, like most other\nsouthern Native American groups, pretty damn brutal (we see the precursor to it with\nApu Punchau's tribe). Pia's slavery and Baldanders' human sacrifices might be \nintended as a reflection of the pre-Christian culture of the area (which continues on\nto this day? http://www.religionnewsblog.com/5970/peru-police-probe-possible-human-sacrifice\n \n(Did anyone see Apocalypto? I see it as Mel Gibson's answer to the anti-Christopher Columbus\nmovement and the Sun Series may have similar intent. The hours of Mayan barbarity and cruelty\nwe are drenched in is enough to make the sight of Christian conquistador ships at the end \ncause a sigh of relief in the most steadfast atheist, progressive/liberal) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2E8E9.8060800@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T19:18:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 7:10 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l: TBotNS is far enough in the future that mountains containing the ruins\nof long-buried cities have risen. This is not on the order of 20 or 30\nthousand years; it is millions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The cliff face with strata of artifacts could easily be the result of an\nearthquake, or it could have been a mountain that was extensively tunneled\nand filled with artifacts the left to chiliads of neglect, like Mt Typhon.\nRecognizeable constellations between Sev's and Apu's time put an upper\nlimit of about 100K years on their separation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with Dan'l. Earthquakes and mining can invert or disrupt many layers\nof rock strata with imbedded fossils and artifacts but they can't create them.\nOnly time can do that. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While fossils can last for millions and billions of years, remains can \nbecome fossilized in as little as a few thousand years. If the cliff in \nLICTOR, ch XIII was an old landfill, the entire thickness could be less \nthan 20K years old, even if a league really is three mmiles." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2EC40.6020304@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-03T19:32:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mostly agree with the idea, but what human sacrifice by Baldanders do \nyou mean?\nFor Baldanders, it is scientific research, even if he takes some humans \nto open\nand may forget them on the operation table (like the poor\ngirl in the tower).\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nJerry Friedman: But I don't think we can say Lake Diuturna /is/\nLake Titicaca, or say, \"At this point Severian is near a place where children were\nritually exposed, which tells us something about what he encountered here.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nHm. I'm not so quick to dismiss. The Inca rulers of the area were, like most other\nsouthern Native American groups, pretty damn brutal (we see the precursor to it with\nApu Punchau's tribe). Pia's slavery and Baldanders' human sacrifices might be \nintended as a reflection of the pre-Christian culture of the area (which continues on\nto this day? http://www.religionnewsblog.com/5970/peru-police-probe-possible-human-sacrifice\n \n(Did anyone see Apocalypto? I see it as Mel Gibson's answer to the anti-Christopher Columbus\nmovement and the Sun Series may have similar intent. The hours of Mayan barbarity and cruelty\nwe are drenched in is enough to make the sight of Christian conquistador ships at the end \ncause a sigh of relief in the most steadfast atheist, progressive/liberal) \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T19:57:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2EC40.6020304@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: I mostly agree with the idea, but what human sacrifice by Baldanders do \nyou mean? For Baldanders, it is scientific research, even if he takes some humans \nto open and may forget them on the operation table (like the poor girl in the tower)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies. I was being deliberately broad in my use of the word \"sacrifice\" to add some \ncolor to my post as well as make a point.\n \nYes, there is the half-Pia in Baldanders' castle and many other prisoners there. Dr. Talos\nexplains that Baldanders keeps such \"rubbish\" around for \"spare parts\".\n \nSo, in a manner, Baldanders is sacrificing these local natives not to the gods but to his\nown scientific research and thus to himself and his own immortality (which is the sole purpose \nof his research).\n \nConsidering what we learn of Baldanders' fate, of godlings on the Whorl and Cilinia/Scylla (and\nin my opinion, Echidna and The Mother) it may actually be a sacrifice to the creation of a god, \nin Baldanders' view. \n \n(Wolfe seems more inclined to view humans who grow into giants and then sea gods to be more like \nmonsters/demons than gods) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB2F800.7080305@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T20:22:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/3/2011 2:57 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSergei Soloviev: I mostly agree with the idea, but what human sacrifice by Baldanders do\nyou mean? For Baldanders, it is scientific research, even if he takes some humans\nto open and may forget them on the operation table (like the poor girl in the tower)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apologies. I was being deliberately broad in my use of the word \"sacrifice\" to add some\ncolor to my post as well as make a point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not so sure.\nSev coming to overthrow Baldanders..a woman outstretched on the table.\nSilk slaying Blood as Marble sits with her hand outstretched.\nAble encountering the woman laid out on a stone table to be sacrificed \nto the dragon as he enters the cave at the end of The Knight.\n\nI think Wolfe had a specific tableau for each of these climactic scenes." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB304AE.2060609@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-03T21:16:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB2F800.7080305@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 4:22 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/3/2011 2:57 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sergei Soloviev: I mostly agree with the idea, but what human \nsacrifice by Baldanders do\nyou mean? For Baldanders, it is scientific research, even if he \ntakes some humans\nto open and may forget them on the operation table (like the poor \ngirl in the tower)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Apologies. I was being deliberately broad in my use of the word \n\"sacrifice\" to add some\ncolor to my post as well as make a point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not so sure.\nSev coming to overthrow Baldanders..a woman outstretched on the table.\nSilk slaying Blood as Marble sits with her hand outstretched.\nAble encountering the woman laid out on a stone table to be sacrificed \nto the dragon as he enters the cave at the end of The Knight.\n\nI think Wolfe had a specific tableau for each of these climactic scenes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And let's not forget An Evil Guest. I recall one or two that were at \nleast planned." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB307C4.7050808@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T21:29:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB304AE.2060609@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sev coming to overthrow Baldanders..a woman outstretched on the table.\nSilk slaying Blood as Marble sits with her hand outstretched.\nAble encountering the woman laid out on a stone table to be \nsacrificed to the dragon as he enters the cave at the end of The Knight.\n\nI think Wolfe had a specific tableau for each of these climactic scenes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 4:16 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd let's not forget An Evil Guest. I recall one or two that were at \nleast planned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is correct. Cassie kills the King as he has Will Ries sacrificed.\nAre you thinking of another one as well in that novel, David?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB309AC.4060004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-03T21:37:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB307C4.7050808@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 5:29 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sev coming to overthrow Baldanders..a woman outstretched on the table.\nSilk slaying Blood as Marble sits with her hand outstretched.\nAble encountering the woman laid out on a stone table to be \nsacrificed to the dragon as he enters the cave at the end of The \nKnight.\n\nI think Wolfe had a specific tableau for each of these climactic \nscenes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/3/2011 4:16 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnd let's not forget An Evil Guest. I recall one or two that were at \nleast planned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is correct. Cassie kills the King as he has Will Ries sacrificed.\nAre you thinking of another one as well in that novel, David?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No---I could be thinking of My Hat." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T22:51:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB309AC.4060004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Catholic interpretation of God already includes several aspects, equal in significance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I got that slightly wrong; the term the Rajan uses is\n'forms', not 'aspects'. The term 'aspect of the Outsider' is used, I\nthink, only in the glossary, where Quadrifons is called that - though\nas the Rajan calls him a form, the terms are presumably equivalent.\n\nAnyway, yes, certainly Christianity recognises aspects of God which\nare of equal significance - but the forms of the Outsider in the _Sun_\ncycle would seem to be people through whom he has spoken or acted -\nKypris and Severian are our clearest examples - and there are\nthousands of them." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-03T23:06:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm beginning to incline to the 'just a prophet' view, because of the\n'aspects of the Outsider' passage in OBW. These 'aspects' seem to be\npeople through whom the Outsider reveals himself, and they are treated\nas if they are all equal in signficance, which would be odd if there\nwas a person in that world who actually _was_ the Outsider, made\nmanifest. Admittedly this is just the Rajan's view of things, so may\nbe wrong; on the other hand, it is confirmed by the many voices which\nSilk hears during his enlightenment, which the Rajan identifes with\nthe aspects." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm inclined to this too, but why would Silk have visions of a man with\nno extraordinary link to the Outsider? Clearly this Jesus was at least\nan \"aspect\" or \"host\" of the Outsider (though the O doesn't seem to\npossess people quite the way the other gods do)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He would have to be a form of the Outsider, and it's possible that he\nwas the first. Also, we aren't told about everything Silk sees, so he\nmay have seen lots of other forms of the Outsider which we don't know\nabout." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T11:39:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Catholic interpretation of God already includes several aspects, equal in significance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually I got that slightly wrong; the term the Rajan uses is\n'forms', not 'aspects'. The term 'aspect of the Outsider' is used, I\nthink, only in the glossary, where Quadrifons is called that - though\nas the Rajan calls him a form, the terms are presumably equivalent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think so. There’s another very interesting use of “aspect”, though:\n*******************************************************\n“Is it known that all the gods are Mainframe?” Sciathan awaited an explosion with some anxiety; when it did not cone, he added, “Equally is Mainframe all gods. Mainframe in its aspect of darkness, which in this tongue is termed Tartaros, issued my instructions.” [Exodus]\n*******************************************************\nAnd now here’s something from Nightside, which I think is relevant to our understanding of the religious cosmology of Long and Short Sun (and very likely is, I think, something that Wolfe would consider equally applicable to our own cosmos):\n*******************************************************\nBlood stooped to examine the triptych. \"Where's Pas?\" Silk pointed.\n\n\"That whirlwind? I thought he was an old man with two heads.\"\n\n\"Any representation of a god is ultimately a lie,\" Silk explained. \"It may be a convenient lie, and it may even be a reverent one; but it's ultimately false. Great Pas might choose to appear as your old man, or as the spiralling storm which is his eldest representation. Neither image would be more nearly true than the other, or more true than any other - merely more appropriate.\"\n********************************************************\nWolfe does not, I imagine, believe that the doctrines promulgated by the Vatican at this moment in history represent the final word on the nature of reality. Still less is he engaged in writing some sort of secret heretical screed to be unpicked by an analysis of codes relating to pagan gods. I think he knows that no human representation of what is called on Urth the Increate and in Viron Mainframe can ultimately be a true representation; and if no representation can be ultimately true, then no specific doctrine or iconography can be ultimately true either. Pas may have one head, or two, or perhaps sometimes even three, but the number three is a specific doctrine which might be reverent and appropriate at some times or some circumstances — and that is true not just for Pas but for other human representations of Mainframe, or the Increate, or God.\nThat’s why harping on a reference to Dionysus as a form of the Outsider, for example, as if it were the key to some great secret cosmology (even though Dionysus is one of many gods so described) is getting Wolfe’s world completely ass-backward, just as it is getting it ass-backward to read Book of the New Sun as some hermetic gnostic scroll." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, yes, certainly Christianity recognises aspects of God which\nare of equal significance - but the forms of the Outsider in the _Sun_\ncycle would seem to be people through whom he has spoken or acted -\nKypris and Severian are our clearest examples - and there are\nthousands of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps our understanding will evolve in this direction over the next 100000 or whatever it is years. And it’s worth noting that the gods leave a piece of themselves in those whom they have possessed and enlightened. Devils, at least, can see it: when Poppy was possessed by Mucor she saw everyone as hollow, except for Silk.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T13:31:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: “Is it known that all the gods are Mainframe?” Sciathan awaited an \nexplosion with some anxiety; when it did not cone, he added, “Equally is Mainframe \nall gods. Mainframe in its aspect of darkness, which in this tongue is termed Tartaros, \nissued my instructions.” [Exodus]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blood stooped to examine the triptych. \"Where's Pas?\" Silk pointed.\n\"That whirlwind? I thought he was an old man with two heads.\" \"Any representation of a god is \nultimately a lie,\" Silk explained. \"It may be a convenient lie, and it may even be a reverent \none; but it's ultimately false. Great Pas might choose to appear as your old man, or as the \nspiralling storm which is his eldest representation. Neither image would be more nearly true \nthan the other, or more true than any other - merely more appropriate.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great quotes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Clearly this Jesus was at least an \"aspect\" or \"host\" of the Outsider" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: He would have to be a form of the Outsider, and it's possible that he\nwas the first. Also, we aren't told about everything Silk sees, so he may have seen lots \nof other forms of the Outsider which we don't know about....the forms of the Outsider \nin the _Sun_cycle would seem to be people through whom he has spoken or acted -Kypris and \nSeverian are our clearest examples - and there are thousands of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Recalls to mind the Hindu \"10,000 names of God\". I think Gerry's quote above nicely suggests\nthat Tartaros is a Mainframe aspect of The Outsider. He does seem to have some special qualities\nwhich belie his supposed disability. And Tartaros is Pas' son. Father-son-father, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: That’s why harping on a reference to Dionysus as a form of the Outsider, for example, \nas if it were the key to some great secret cosmology (even though Dionysus is one of many gods so \ndescribed) is getting Wolfe’s world completely ass-backward, just as it is getting it ass-backward \nto read Book of the New Sun as some hermetic gnostic scroll." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh okay! Thanks for clearing that up Gerry. Glad we finally have an ultimate authority here to \nclarify things. It's really nice to have an omnicient electronic god here in our little forum. Would \nit be okay if I called you Gerry-Pas from now on? And, if I may be so presumptuous, may I ask if you \nare a blond or brunette (or both)? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3F1E1.7090602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T14:08:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That’s why harping on a reference to Dionysus as a form of the Outsider, for example,\nas if it were the key to some great secret cosmology (even though Dionysus is one of many gods so\ndescribed)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you talking about fictional gods of the Whorl rather than actual \ngods with actual religions and cults from our world? (ala Dionysus). The \nreferences to Dionysus are deep and broad. And they are not even limited \nto the Sun books. Dionysus is a special case with Wolfe, especially in \nthe Long/Short Sun. And the references get steadily more more explicit \nthe closer to the end.\n\nIncidentally, I really like Lee's identification of Silent Silk and \nSilver Silk with Silenus and Silvanus. That's an excellent catch, and \nI'm kicking myself I didn't see it first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is getting Wolfe’s world completely ass-backward, just as it is getting it ass-backward\nto read Book of the New Sun as some hermetic gnostic scroll." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think one should educate himself enough to identify references to \nDionysus or gnosticism before attempting to speak so definitively. It's \nlike arguing with a color blind person about which shade of blue goes \nwith these jeans. Maybe you're right, but you wouldn't really know. I'm \nnot going to name-drop, but I had a conversation with a pillar of Gene \nWolfe scholarship--a Christian who is motivated NOT to read into Wolfe's \nnovels anything but orthodox Christianity-- and he said (referring to \nthe 'New Sun', \"I know that Wolfe is not a gnostic, but I can't deny the \ndegree that the gnostic stuff is in there.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3F229.3060800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T14:09:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 7:39 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThat’s why harping on a reference to Dionysus as a form of the \nOutsider, for example, as if it were the key to some great secret \ncosmology (even though Dionysus is one of many gods so described) is \ngetting Wolfe’s world completely ass-backward, just as it is getting \nit ass-backward to read Book of the New Sun as some hermetic gnostic \nscroll." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this of course, but am not sure about the statements of \nwhat is not. What \"secret cosmology\" has been proposed? I don't think \neven Lee thinks Wolfe is secretly gnostic." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3F742.9080909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T14:31:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/4/2011 9:31 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nClearly this Jesus was at least an \"aspect\" or \"host\" of the Outsider" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Andrew Mason: He would have to be a form of the Outsider, and it's possible that he\nwas the first. Also, we aren't told about everything Silk sees, so he may have seen lots\nof other forms of the Outsider which we don't know about....the forms of the Outsider\nin the _Sun_cycle would seem to be people through whom he has spoken or acted -Kypris and\nSeverian are our clearest examples - and there are thousands of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Recalls to mind the Hindu \"10,000 names of God\". I think Gerry's quote above nicely suggests\nthat Tartaros is a Mainframe aspect of The Outsider. He does seem to have some special qualities\nwhich belie his supposed disability. And Tartaros is Pas' son. Father-son-father, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that certainly explicates Wolfe's willingness to invert fatherhood \nin the case of Tartarus. Nice." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB3F8B0.3080602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T14:37:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nettle and Horn wrote (04-11-306 11:39):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*******************************************************\nBlood stooped to examine the triptych. \"Where's Pas?\" Silk pointed.\n\n\"That whirlwind? I thought he was an old man with two heads.\"\n\n\"Any representation of a god is ultimately a lie,\" Silk explained. \"It may\nbe a convenient lie, and it may even be a reverent one; but it's ultimately\nfalse. Great Pas might choose to appear as your old man, or as the\nspiralling storm which is his eldest representation. Neither image would be\nmore nearly true than the other, or more true than any other - merely more\nappropriate.\"\n********************************************************" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd never before noticed the 'old man' part. I've always pictured Typhon as \nnot looking a day over 33." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T15:04:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB3F8B0.3080602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Incidentally, I really like Lee's identification of Silent Silk and\nSilver Silk with Silenus and Silvanus. That's an excellent catch, and I'm kicking\nmyself I didn't see it first." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. Thanks for remembering that James. Yeah, I was familiar with the Silenus and\nDionysus connection but the silent/silver thing got me motivated to dig a little\nand find Silvanus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I don't think even Lee thinks Wolfe is secretly gnostic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. \"Even\" me? What does this mean? Perhaps there is a mistaken impression that I\nthink the gnostic underpinnings of the Sun Series is the \"real\" story or something\nlike that. Nothing could be further from the truth; a point I might wish to make\nto Sergei, especially.\n\nOften someone or something complex is analogized as an onion, and we are therefore\nsupposed to peel back the layers. I think it is a good analogy and a mistake often\nattributed to it is that the deeper laters of a person or thing are the \"real\" parts.\nThe truest parts. Whatever.\n\nBut the deepest layers of an onion are not more real or true or necessary than the\nmore superficial layers. The same is true about people and works of art, imho. An\nauthor adds depth and richness to his/her work by creating at multiple levels so I\ndon't see why the audience perceiving and appreciating those levels should be seen\nas debasing it.\n\n\n(p.s. on the Pig dialect thing, I asked if it was some sort of British accent and\nI can see why James would want to soften his assessment to less than definite in\nguessing Scottish. Just trying to avoid an argument over something pointless. I\nmyself am terrible at identifying various British dialects. Heck, even Australians\nand (white) South Africans sound British to me, half the time) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T15:38:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: Incidentally, I really like Lee's identification of Silent Silk and\nSilver Silk with Silenus and Silvanus. That's an excellent catch, and I'm kicking\nmyself I didn't see it first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Thanks for remembering that James. Yeah, I was familiar with the Silenus and\nDionysus connection but the silent/silver thing got me motivated to dig a little\nand find Silvanus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Some woodland god who shares one syllable and no etymology with the English word silver, and has at best a tenuous connection with Dionysus. Of course that must be the explanation! Why worry about the quite plausible derivation of Silent Silk and Silver Silk (for a single god, not two) that Wolfe gives us in the text? Only jealous, negative people bother with the text!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the deepest layers of an onion are not more real or true or necessary than the\nmore superficial layers. The same is true about people and works of art, imho. An\nauthor adds depth and richness to his/her work by creating at multiple levels so I\ndon't see why the audience perceiving and appreciating those levels should be seen\nas debasing it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see a problem when a continual torrent of supposed “levels” are proposed by readers who don’t appear to recognise the need for or even validity of any methodology for assessing the difference between a genuine correspondence or some spurious “link” dreamt up out of random noise while trying to confirm some other highly questionable theory.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T17:06:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Some woodland god who shares one syllable and no etymology with the \nEnglish word silver, and has at best a tenuous connection with Dionysus. Of course \nthat must be the explanation! Why worry about the quite plausible derivation of \nSilent Silk and Silver Silk (for a single god, not two) that Wolfe gives us in the text?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat is quite a sarcastic and bitter post Gerry. Why? Discussing the mythological under-\npinnings of this story does not undercut nor debase your view of the story in any way.\n \nYou have admitted grasping that Bird-of-the-Woods is a reference to Rhea Silvia, even though\nthat Rhea has nothing to do with a bird. Why does silver for silvanus bother you so?\n \nAnyway, Wolfe has Hound explain that \"Silk has been awarded the epithet Silent..\" because\nhe looked out of the Sacred Windows without showing himself or speaking or making the window\nchange in any way.\n \nSo how does that explain the epithet Silver? It would seem Wolfe's Hound's (heh) explanation\nfor \"Silent Silk or Silver Silk\" is lacking by 50% wouldn't you agree? Why did Wolfe even\nmention \"Silver Silk\" if he only meant the \"silent\" explantation to have significance?\n \nIf ignoring Silver Silk works for you, that's completely fine. But why does it bother you when \nothers find plausible explanations, such as invoking the Silenus and Silvanus epithets of \nDionysus? Wolfe mentions and explicitly explains \"epithets\" in this section. He pointedly \nrefrences Dionysus in a nearby section of the story. You don't have to connect them but why huff \nand fume when others do? It is in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see a problem when a continual torrent of supposed “levels” are proposed by readers who don’t \nappear to recognise the need for or even validity of any methodology for assessing the \ndifference between a genuine correspondence or some spurious “link” dreamt up out of random noise \nwhile trying to confirm some other highly questionable theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou see a problem for who?\n \nIs it the \"torrent\" which bothers you so much? Perhaps I understand this. Who couldn't empathize \nwith the chagrin of the Dutch boy who has been diligently plugging dike leaks only to get hit by a \ntsunami? So from a human to human perspective, you have my understanding.\n \nBut I'm not clear on what your \"valid methodology\" for understanding this work of literature is.\nIs it possible for you to explain it? It can't rely on the old humdrum of \"what's in the text\".\n \nIt has been demonstrated over and over, including in my example above, that everyone, theorists\nand skeptics alike, are selective in parsing out portions of the text and paying attention to\nand quoting only those parts which support a particular view. Let's be honest, Gerrry, ignoring\nthe Silver Silk part of the mystery above is not the first time you've done it nor is this the\nfirst time it has been pointed out to you that you do it. How is your methodology in any way \nsuperior to anyone else's?\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T17:47:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nHow is your methodology in any way\nsuperior to anyone else's?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's be more parsimonious about this. He only has to show that his\nmethodology is superior to yours. Still, a challenge worthy of a\nword-warrior." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<944700BE64674BAFA2F5935E9AE095DE@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T18:01:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some woodland god who shares one syllable and no etymology with the \nEnglish word silver, and has at best a tenuous connection with Dionysus. Of course \nthat must be the explanation! Why worry about the quite plausible derivation of \nSilent Silk and Silver Silk (for a single god, not two) that Wolfe gives us in the text?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, Wolfe has Hound explain that \"Silk has been awarded the \nepithet Silent..\" because he looked out of the Sacred Windows \nwithout showing himself or speaking or making the window\nchange in any way.\n\nSo how does that explain the epithet Silver? It would seem Wolfe's\n Hound's (heh) explanation for \"Silent Silk or Silver Silk\" is lacking by \n50% wouldn't you agree? Why did Wolfe even mention \"Silver Silk\"\n if he only meant the \"silent\" explantation to have significance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The significance of Silver is obvious, surely? The full quote is:\n****************************************************\nBut Tartaros generally turns them black and speaks. Silk said he didn't speak \nor make the window change at all, pretty often. He just looked on.\"\n****************************************************\n\nIn contrast to Tartaros, Silk leaves the windows the colour they are. Which is described the first time we see one as “luminous grey”. “Luminous Grey Silk” lacks both poetry and alliteration; thus “Silver Silk”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If ignoring Silver Silk works for you, that's completely fine. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But as you see, I don’t ignore it. That’s your trick. \n\nI went back and searched the Urth archives for your post on the subject. You wrote: “My guess is that this is an allusion to a couple satyrs/fauns who are associated with the Dionysus cult, Silvanus and Silenus.”\n\nYou totally ignored the clear explanation given in the text. Sure, maybe you thought it only explained 50%, there’s no sin in not spotting the meaning of “Silver”, though I’d have thought a little thinking about the nature of Sacred Windows would make it clear. But the thing is, you never mentioned it at all. Did you not read it? Or did you maybe think an explanation in the text was irrelevant compared to some random connections of a couple of syllables to some associate of some god you want to generate a vague theory about, and some associate of some other god that might have been associated with the first one. Better not confuse list members with that.\n\nAnd nobody else mentioned it either. Better I suppose to chase that new hare." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why \ndoes it bother you when others find plausible explanations, such\n as invoking the Silenus and Silvanus epithets of Dionysus? Wolfe \nmentions and explicitly explains \"epithets\" in this section. He \npointedly refrences Dionysus in a nearby section of the story. You \ndon't have to connect them but why huff and fume when others do? It is in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It’s not in the text in any meaningful way. It’s either random noise or a reference so cryptic it might as well be. Rhea Silvia is a completely different case, it’s a full name pseudo-translation of someone who is very clearly the mother of the very clearly referenced character Romulus. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I see a problem when a continual torrent of supposed “levels” are proposed by readers who don’t \nappear to recognise the need for or even validity of any methodology for assessing the \ndifference between a genuine correspondence or some spurious “link” dreamt up out of random noise \nwhile trying to confirm some other highly questionable theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I'm not clear on what your \"valid methodology\" for understanding \nthis work of literature is. Is it possible for you to explain it? It can't rely \non the old humdrum of \"what's in the text\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "“What’s in the text” is central to it. Obviously I can’t provide a statistical mechanism for distinguishing near-perfectly between literary references and noise, but I do assert that there is a distinction and a competent reading is not possible without some means of making it with some degree of reliability.\nA start would be reading the text and considering and reporting alternative explanations that are clearly and explicitly given. Don’t you think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It has been demonstrated over and over, including in my example above, \nthat everyone, theorists and skeptics alike, are selective in parsing out \nportions of the text and paying attention to and quoting only those parts \nwhich support a particular view. Let's be honest, Gerrry, ignoring the Silver \nSilk part of the mystery above is not the first time you've done it nor is this\n the first time it has been pointed out to you that you do it. How is your \nmethodology in any way superior to anyone else's?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we’ve just established that, in one case anyway. \nAnd in general, I do try to consider and report alternative readings or issues. You criticised me for doing just that, recently.\nBy the way, here’s something from your next post in that thread: “In conclusion, I think the presence of Dionysus' millenia-long worship does provide a significant enough basis for a secret underpinning to understanding of the Sun series. More and more this seems to me like a gnostic universe that Wolfe has created.”\n“A secret underpinning... a gnostic universe” I don’t make random assertions about what is being proposed on this list, either.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB428BA.6080200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T18:02:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll agree that Gerry has been unjustifiedly negative in his responses to \nsome of the latest hypotheses. But what if you dropped your \noh-I'm-so-much-cleverer-than-you,-I-see-stuff-you-don't,-but-you're-still-a-special-person-in-God's-plan-so-don't-feel-threatened-in-your-little-sandbox-,-who-cares,-it's-all-relative-anyway \nattitude and started to acknowledge issues when they are pointed to you, \nLee, wouldn't that be an improvement?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB42C37.8040704@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T18:17:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<944700BE64674BAFA2F5935E9AE095DE@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So how does that explain the epithet Silver? It would seem Wolfe's\n Hound's (heh) explanation for \"Silent Silk or Silver Silk\" is \nlacking by\n50% wouldn't you agree? Why did Wolfe even mention \"Silver Silk\"\n if he only meant the \"silent\" explantation to have significance?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 11/4/2011 1:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThe significance of Silver is obvious, surely? The full quote is:\n****************************************************\nBut Tartaros generally turns them black and speaks. Silk said he \ndidn't speak\nor make the window change at all, pretty often. He just looked on.\"\n****************************************************\nIn contrast to Tartaros, Silk leaves the windows the colour they are. \nWhich is described the first time we see one as \"luminous grey\". \n'Luminous Grey Silk' lacks both poetry and alliteration; thus 'Silver \nSilk'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh. I thought your method relied SOLELY on the text. Now here you go \nand draw connections based on cryptic word-smithing to derive intent \nfrom the author. Based on your model, shouldn't we expect him to be \ncalled \"Gray Silk\"? \"graysilk\" has a certain poetry does it not? Silver \nSilk sounds like a comic book super hero.\n\nHow does one cross the line between \"drawing inferences from the text\" \nand \"extending the text in a way that annoys\"?\nTypically, the line is crossed when \"he\" does it, instead of \"me\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T18:56:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB42C37.8040704@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Let's be more parsimonious about this. He only has to show that his\nmethodology is superior to yours. Still, a challenge worthy of a word-warrior." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, fair enough! But I think it will be further demonstrated in this post that his \nmethodology is the same as my methodology, despite the differing results." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: In contrast to Tartaros, Silk leaves the windows the colour they are. Which \nis described the first time we see one as “luminous grey”. “Luminous Grey Silk” lacks both \npoetry and alliteration; thus “Silver Silk”." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice analysis, Gerry! I concur, and of course I didn't previously fail to consider the \nconnection between silver and screen. Still, this fails your test of \"from the text only!\"\nmethodology. Wolfe does not explain the \"silver\" reference in the text. You do that yourself\nthrough the process of your own inferences. Nothing wrong with that, of course.\n \nThe fact remains that James and I see a Wolfe wink here. Invoking the names Silent and Silver\nSilk seems to call for much more than the simple fact of Silk quietly looking out of a screen.\nWhy would that, by itself, be so important? If him peeking out of a screen seems important\nenough to you for Wolfe to give us these epithets along with a detailed explanation of what an\nepithet means for a god, that's fine. But why should it bother you that James and I follow our\nintuition? \n \n(and as James just noted, I agree there is some poetry to \"Greysilk\". I think Wolfe might have \nused that epithet if his intention was solely to invoke Silk in a grey screen. My intuition tells \nme that using silver is meant to suggest something more, especially paired with silent and Dionysus)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: I'll agree that Gerry has been unjustifiedly negative in his responses to \nsome of the latest hypotheses. But what if you dropped your oh-I'm-so-much-cleverer-than-you,-I-see-\nstuff-you-don't,-but-you're-still-a-special-person-in-God's-plan-so-don't-feel-threatened-in-your-\nlittle-sandbox-,-who-cares,-it's-all-relative-anyway attitude and started to acknowledge issues when \nthey are pointed to you, Lee, wouldn't that be an improvement?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nActually no it wouldn't! As you state, Gerry has been especially hostile of late. If I suggest he \nbe called Gerry-Pas or some other little tweak it is no more than he deserves, eh? But the reason\nit would not be an improvement is the entertainment factor. People are interested in conflict and\neven in their admonitions against it, they demonstrate that interest. If conflict was truly boring\nit would be ignored.\n \nOn the other hand, I deny having or expressing an attitude of \"oh-I'm-so-much-cleverer-than-you\".\nIt is an annoying trait and I am likely to express my annoyance with people who display it with a \ntweak or two. I think of my ideas as MY ideas. Of interest to me and to anyone else who might be\ninterested. I have no interest in dictating the content of the posts of others here or touting my\n\"methodology\" as more valid than that of others.\n \nI think the furthest I've gone in that direction is to invoke the young woman/old lady optical \nillusion http://www.qualitytrading.com/illusions/images/oldgirl.gif. If some people can only see\none or the other, I think that is fine. Does it make those who see both more clever? (I don't \nthink so, and I can explain why I don't, if needed)\n \nI don't know the artist. I don't know his/her intention. Perhaps he/she truly only intended to draw \na young woman or an old lady and perception of the other is purely accidental. That doesn't give me\nor anyone else the license to tell someone else there is no old woman or there is no young woman.\nIf a person sees an image, it exists. \n \nIf the argument is artistic intention then we must rely soley on the on the artist's own words as\nauthority. Any interpretation of intention by others is simply that- interpretation. And confusion\nof one's own interpretation with omniscience and authority is the real crux of the debate here. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB438DB.3000005@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-04T19:11:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB42C37.8040704@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me (IMHO) Gerry's inference looks much more convincing and closer to \nthe text,\nlet's be fair. \"Silver screen\" is (or at least was in 70-es) a commonplace\nspeaking about the television. Moreover, the cathode ray tubes (when \ntelevision used them)\ncontained silver" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The phosphor viewing surface is formed from a continuous layer of a \nsingle material in >monochromatic CRTs, or is composed of individual \ndots of three different materials in color CRTs. >Zinc sulfide is a \ncommon phosphor material. The color is determined by adding a very small \namount of material called an activator. Zinc sulfide with 0.01% silver \nactivator emits a blue light. >When a 0.001% copper activator is used, \nit produces a green light. A 50/50 mixture of zinc sulfide >and cadmium \nsulfide with a 0.005% silver activator produces a yellow light. Red \nlight can be >produced by adding silver or copper to zinc sulfide" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably you don't remember that, but I think GW does, and it is a very \nfine reference\nto the technology level in the Whorl.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So how does that explain the epithet Silver? It would seem Wolfe's\nHound's (heh) explanation for \"Silent Silk or Silver Silk\" is \nlacking by\n50% wouldn't you agree? Why did Wolfe even mention \"Silver Silk\"\nif he only meant the \"silent\" explantation to have significance?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/4/2011 1:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThe significance of Silver is obvious, surely? The full quote is:\n****************************************************\nBut Tartaros generally turns them black and speaks. Silk said he \ndidn't speak\nor make the window change at all, pretty often. He just looked on.\"\n****************************************************\nIn contrast to Tartaros, Silk leaves the windows the colour they are. \nWhich is described the first time we see one as “luminous grey”. \n“Luminous Grey Silk” lacks both poetry and alliteration; thus “Silver \nSilk”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh. I thought your method relied SOLELY on the text. Now here you go \nand draw connections based on cryptic word-smithing to derive intent \nfrom the author. Based on your model, shouldn't we expect him to be \ncalled \"Gray Silk\"? \"graysilk\" has a certain poetry does it not? \nSilver Silk sounds like a comic book super hero.\n\nHow does one cross the line between \"drawing inferences from the text\" \nand \"extending the text in a way that annoys\"?\nTypically, the line is crossed when \"he\" does it, instead of \"me\".\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T19:21:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB438DB.3000005@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\n\"Silver screen\" is (or at least was in 70-es) a commonplace\nspeaking about the television." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the phrase usually refers to movie screens. It comes from\nthe \"silver lenticular screen\" which was in common use in the Olde\nDayes of Movies. But I don't think that changes the relevance of the\nreference; the screens in the manteions, at least, are surely large\nprojection-type screens." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB43CF2.1080106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T19:28:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<944700BE64674BAFA2F5935E9AE095DE@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 2:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some woodland god who shares one syllable and no etymology with the\nEnglish word silver, and has at best a tenuous connection with \nDionysus. Of course\nthat must be the explanation! Why worry about the quite plausible \nderivation of\nSilent Silk and Silver Silk (for a single god, not two) that Wolfe \ngives us in the text?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, Wolfe has Hound explain that \"Silk has been awarded the\nepithet Silent..\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "because he looked out of the Sacred Windows\nwithout showing himself or speaking or making the window\nchange in any way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So how does that explain the epithet Silver? It would seem Wolfe's\nHound's (heh) explanation for \"Silent Silk or Silver Silk\" is \nlacking by\n50% wouldn't you agree? Why did Wolfe even mention \"Silver Silk\"\nif he only meant the \"silent\" explantation to have significance?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The significance of Silver is obvious, surely? The full quote is:\n****************************************************\nBut Tartaros generally turns them black and speaks. Silk said he \ndidn't speak\nor make the window change at all, pretty often. He just looked on.\"\n****************************************************\nIn contrast to Tartaros, Silk leaves the windows the colour they are. \nWhich is described the first time we see one as “luminous grey”. \n“Luminous Grey Silk” lacks both poetry and alliteration; thus “Silver \nSilk”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If ignoring Silver Silk works for you, that's completely fine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But as you see, I don’t ignore it. That’s your trick.\nI went back and searched the Urth archives for your post on the \nsubject. You wrote: “My guess is that this is an allusion to a couple \nsatyrs/fauns who are associated with the Dionysus cult, Silvanus and \nSilenus.”\nYou totally ignored the clear explanation given in the text. Sure, \nmaybe you thought it only explained 50%, there’s no sin in not \nspotting the meaning of “Silver”, though I’d have thought a little \nthinking about the nature of Sacred Windows would make it clear. But \nthe thing is, you never mentioned it at all. Did you not read it? Or \ndid you maybe think an explanation in the text was irrelevant compared \nto some random connections of a couple of syllables to some associate \nof some god you want to generate a vague theory about, and some \nassociate of some other god that might have been associated with the \nfirst one. Better not confuse list members with that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what does that \"explain\" exactly? If the screens turned blue, would \nWolfe then have used \"Blue Silk\"? (Perhaps a reference to the Blue \nScreen of Death, indicating that Silk is a DOS program!)\n\nHe could have used Rainbow Silk. Or Pearly Silk. But he is quite careful \nwith his color-word choices." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, here’s something from your next post in that thread: “In \nconclusion, I think the presence of Dionysus' millenia-long worship \ndoes provide a significant enough basis for a secret underpinning to \nunderstanding of the Sun series. More and more this seems to me like a \ngnostic universe that Wolfe has created.”\n“A secret underpinning... a gnostic universe” I don’t make random \nassertions about what is being proposed on this list, either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how that is the same as saying the Cycle is a \"hermetic \ngnostic text.\" To me, it indicates a world where people are deliberately \nkept from seeing the truth about the universe/the universal truth by \nintermediate powers. Once you consider that the Gods of the Old and New \nTestaments have radically different personalities, the idea starts to \nmake some sense.\n\nTo me, the movie The Matrix uses gnostic logic if not actual references \nto gnostic mythology. This hardly means that the writers thought gnosis \nwas way cool. It does suggest they smoked a little dope in their time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB43D64.8080704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T19:30:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB438DB.3000005@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 3:11 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nTo me (IMHO) Gerry's inference looks much more convincing and closer \nto the text,\nlet's be fair. \"Silver screen\" is (or at least was in 70-es) a \ncommonplace\nspeaking about the television. Moreover, the cathode ray tubes (when \ntelevision used them)\ncontained silver" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The phosphor viewing surface is formed from a continuous layer of a \nsingle material in >monochromatic CRTs, or is composed of individual \ndots of three different materials in color CRTs. >Zinc sulfide is a \ncommon phosphor material. The color is determined by adding a very \nsmall >amount of material called an activator. Zinc sulfide with 0.01% \nsilver activator emits a blue light. >When a 0.001% copper activator \nis used, it produces a green light. A 50/50 mixture of zinc sulfide \nand cadmium sulfide with a 0.005% silver activator produces a yellow \nlight. Red light can be >produced by adding silver or copper to zinc \nsulfide" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Probably you don't remember that, but I think GW does, and it is a \nvery fine reference\nto the technology level in the Whorl.\n\nSergei " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no doubt about that interpretation at all. But what does it mean? \nWhat does it do?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB43DF0.6030306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T19:33:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (04-11-2011 18:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fact remains that James and I see a Wolfe wink here. Invoking the names Silent and Silver\nSilk seems to call for much more than the simple fact of Silk quietly looking out of a screen.\nWhy would that, by itself, be so important? If him peeking out of a screen seems important\nenough to you for Wolfe to give us these epithets along with a detailed explanation of what an\nepithet means for a god, that's fine. But why should it bother you that James and I follow our\nintuition?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I have to agree on both counts (that the coincidence is interesting and \nthat no one should be bothered by others' following of it). The second \nagreement is subsidiary to the first, but the reasons for the first are \nquite objective (so, no, no you-allow-it-because-you-like-it ticket)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as James just noted, I agree there is some poetry to \"Greysilk\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's Gandalf the Gray... is Silk to become White or Black in the future?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the furthest I've gone in that direction is to invoke the young woman/old lady optical\nillusion http://www.qualitytrading.com/illusions/images/oldgirl.gif. If some people can only see\none or the other, I think that is fine. Does it make those who see both more clever? (I don't\nthink so, and I can explain why I don't, if needed)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know that it's needed, but I don't think it would hurt.\n\nBut Gerry's answer is not that he doesn't see your pictures. It's rather \nthat he finds them so faint that, if such faintness is allowed, then he sees \nnot only your pictures, but a thousand other ones. As he demonstrated with \nhis Dalek interpretation. If you want to answer that criticism, you must do \nit in concrete terms; doing it in abstract terms can reasonably be \nconsidered both condescending and non-responsive. In fact, I think the crux \nof the problem is the insistence on concreteness: what is it that a given \nhypothesis offers that is worthy and sets it apart from noise. Of course, \nworthiness may be subjective; but here I think a central criterion is the \nability of a model to give the reading something other than the model itself \n(and it's legitimate to say that it gives you the kicks; it's just that \nunless it gives a few others the kicks as well, it isn't very convincing)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB43F93.4060807@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2011-11-04T19:40:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB43D64.8080704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It means (IMHO) that in a good book (and in its interpretation) there is \nan hierarchy of ideas.\nIf all are equally genial they cancel each other, and overall impression \nis poor. To me,\nif you try to turn every detail into the key to all secrets, it is \nexactly what will happen.\nThere are details that help to create certain background feeling (level \nof technology,\ntype of society, psychology of characters), there are others that \nexplain for example\nthe relations between personages and important turns of the plot (like \nreal relationship\nbetween Talos and Baldanders) and indeed others that may be key to \nprincipal ideas\nof the author. I think sceptic reaction to many theories is healthy - \nevery detail\ncannot be principal.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nOn 11/4/2011 3:11 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me (IMHO) Gerry's inference looks much more convincing and closer \nto the text,\nlet's be fair. \"Silver screen\" is (or at least was in 70-es) a \ncommonplace\nspeaking about the television. Moreover, the cathode ray tubes (when \ntelevision used them)\ncontained silver" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The phosphor viewing surface is formed from a continuous layer of a \nsingle material in >monochromatic CRTs, or is composed of individual \ndots of three different materials in color CRTs. >Zinc sulfide is a \ncommon phosphor material. The color is determined by adding a very \nsmall >amount of material called an activator. Zinc sulfide with \n0.01% silver activator emits a blue light. >When a 0.001% copper \nactivator is used, it produces a green light. A 50/50 mixture of zinc \nsulfide >and cadmium sulfide with a 0.005% silver activator produces \na yellow light. Red light can be >produced by adding silver or copper \nto zinc sulfide" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Probably you don't remember that, but I think GW does, and it is a \nvery fine reference\nto the technology level in the Whorl.\n\nSergei " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no doubt about that interpretation at all. But what does it \nmean? What does it do?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB443B0.6070209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T19:57:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB43F93.4060807@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote (04-11-2011 19:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think sceptic reaction to many theories is healthy - every detail\ncannot be principal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm reminded of a PM candidate we had 16 years ago for whom, when asked, \nevery single issue would be a priority of his government. Of course, all the \npeople who think everyone's conditions should be above the average voted for \nhim and he did become PM." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB446AE.4050103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T20:10:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB43CF2.1080106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 2:28 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nTo me, the movie The Matrix uses gnostic logic if not actual \nreferences to gnostic mythology. This hardly means that the writers \nthought gnosis was way cool. It does suggest they smoked a little dope \nin their time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I found The Matrix to be profoundly Calvinist--although \nlargely inadvertent (but not so inadvertent as the creators claimed). \nOther than the Nicholas Cage movie \"Knowing\" I can't think of another \nthat provoked that response from me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 2:40 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nTo me,\nif you try to turn every detail into the key to all secrets, it is \nexactly what will happen. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but no one does that. This is a strawman argument. In fact I have \nseen people refute Lee by saying that he IGNORES important details. So \nwhich is it? Does he turn every detail in a 'key', or does he carefully \nselect quotes to subvert the text?\n\nHere's the deal. If I read a story story in which a blonde girl in a \nblue and white dress met a couple of fat twins, and if there were a \ndiscussion of \"Lorina Liddell's sister\" and rabbit-hole's I would \ncorrectly deduce that the author is making some intentional riff off of \nAlice in Wonderland. Now someone who knew very little of the story and \nbackground and made no attempt to educate themselves about it might say \n\"Hmm, I don't really see those references.\" And that would be true. And \nexpected.\n\nIn Return to the Whorl we have discussions of \"Thyone's son\" and \nSilent/Silver Silk. There are others. Even before I read tBotSS, I was \nexplaining that the character Quetzal and the word \"inhumi\" were \nreferences to Dionysus.\n\nI don't know what to say. But it's fine with me if anyone doesn't see \nreferences. If you know nothing about trees, you are not likely to note \nthe difference between a pecan or a willow. Fine. But I *do* know what \nI'm talking about here, and Wolfe is throwing reference after reference \nto Dionysus. I can't say I know exactly why. I'm saying he's doing it. I \ndon't know what it is a \"key\" to. I think Wolfe's work has lots of \n\"keys\". It's information available to you whether you use it or not." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB44861.2040107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T20:17:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 2:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nhe screens in the manteions, at least, are surely large\nprojection-type screens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you say that? Why not LED or some sort of liquid crystal technology?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320438233.32770.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T20:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB43D64.8080704@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "as always, good laughs were had all around on the Urth list. Deities of the wood will of course be of the utmost relevance in any Sun novel from Vodalus of the wood to the fierce herbivorous jungles on green to the vanished Gods to Silver Silk/Silvanus himself to the sentient time travelling Empires of foliage and flower with a city called something that seems to resemble Green. \n\nSchool in summer time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320438450.36552.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T20:27:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB43F93.4060807@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Fri, 11/4/11, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nFrom: Sergei SOLOVIEV \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, November 4, 2011, 12:40 PM\nIt means (IMHO) that in a good book\n(and in its interpretation) there is an hierarchy of ideas.\nIf all are equally genial they cancel each other, and\noverall impression is poor. To me,\nif you try to turn every detail into the key to all\nsecrets, it is exactly what will happen.\nThere are details that help to create certain background\nfeeling (level of technology,\ntype of society, psychology of characters), there are\nothers that explain for example\nthe relations between personages and important turns of the\nplot (like real relationship\nbetween Talos and Baldanders) and indeed others that may be\nkey to principal ideas\nof the author. I think sceptic reaction to many theories is\nhealthy - every detail\ncannot be principal.\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sergei, if we deny the underpinnings of the foliage in this sequence and its thematic relevance and believe an allusion to a god of the wood is acccidental, then we are really missing the boat completely and attributing to accident which is simply a pattern of Wolfe.\n\nuncategorically. I see the central theme of deities of the wood very differently than Lee does but it's there for sure." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320439143.49864.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T20:39:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB446AE.4050103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Fri, 11/4/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\n\n. But I *do* know what I'm talking about here, and Wolfe is throwing reference after reference to Dionysus. I can't say I know exactly why. I'm saying he's doing it. I don't know what it is a \"key\" to. I think Wolfe's work has lots of \"keys\". It's information available to you whether you use it or not.\n\n\n\nYes, he is. (I am more arrogant than you James. I do know why.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5327C3D4-062F-40CB-841D-0D5D4EA1D6ED@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T20:44:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB44861.2040107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/04, ?s 20:17, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 2:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "he screens in the manteions, at least, are surely large\nprojection-type screens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you say that? Why not LED or some sort of liquid crystal \ntechnology?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because that wasn't available to '50s sf. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB450F3.1060605@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T20:54:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Human sacrifice", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/3/2011 2:02 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJerry Friedman: But I don't think we can say Lake Diuturna /is/\nLake Titicaca, or say, \"At this point Severian is near a place where children were\nritually exposed, which tells us something about what he encountered here.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm. I'm not so quick to dismiss. The Inca rulers of the area were, like most other\nsouthern Native American groups, pretty damn brutal (we see the precursor to it with\nApu Punchau's tribe). Pia's slavery and Baldanders' human sacrifices might be\nintended as a reflection of the pre-Christian culture of the area (which continues on\nto this day? http://www.religionnewsblog.com/5970/peru-police-probe-possible-human-sacrifice\n\n(Did anyone see Apocalypto? I see it as Mel Gibson's answer to the anti-Christopher Columbus\nmovement and the Sun Series may have similar intent. The hours of Mayan barbarity and cruelty\nwe are drenched in is enough to make the sight of Christian conquistador ships at the end\ncause a sigh of relief in the most steadfast atheist, progressive/liberal)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm rereading Long Lake, and in Exodus Remora informs Mint that child \nsacrifice used to be practiced in manteions in the Whorl. So this is \nplainly a concern of Wolfe's, just as it is to Christians in general \n(Abraham). (I would guess the slang term \"abram\"=crazy comes from this \npractice.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB451CE.4080005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T20:57:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB446AE.4050103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 4:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 11/4/2011 2:28 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me, the movie The Matrix uses gnostic logic if not actual \nreferences to gnostic mythology. This hardly means that the writers \nthought gnosis was way cool. It does suggest they smoked a little \ndope in their time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I found The Matrix to be profoundly Calvinist--although \nlargely inadvertent (but not so inadvertent as the creators claimed). \nOther than the Nicholas Cage movie \"Knowing\" I can't think of another \nthat provoked that response from me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. Well, that too, I'm sure." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB45331.10103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-04T21:03:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<5327C3D4-062F-40CB-841D-0D5D4EA1D6ED@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are CRTs, I would think. Thus the gray static." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 4:44 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 2011/11/04, ?s 20:17, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/4/2011 2:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "he screens in the manteions, at least, are surely large\nprojection-type screens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you say that? Why not LED or some sort of liquid crystal \ntechnology?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because that wasn't available to '50s \nsf._______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T23:09:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB45331.10103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote: >" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Planned indepedently\" - what does Andrew mean here? It was planned after New Sun, but he clearly from the very beginning wanted it to be in the same universe. Pas as Typhon is not a late addition to the text, it's written in from the very very beginning. He didn't add those connections in in second draft." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't trace it now, but I'm sure there is a Wolfe interview, which\nhas been discussed here, which says that it was while he was already\nworking on _Long Sun_ that he realised it had to be about Typhon and\nhis family. I don't think we can tell, from the finished work, what\nthe original plan was; any changes he made would have affected the\nwhole story. After all, the original germ from which _New syn_\ndeveloped, 'The Feast of St Katharine', didn't have a new sun in it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1C5EFBF4-C412-4BD7-81EB-ABB41960819E@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-04T23:40:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " wrote:\n\nI can't trace it now, but I'm sure there is a Wolfe interview, which\nhas been discussed here, which says that it was while he was already\nworking on _Long Sun_ that he realised it had to be about Typhon and\nhis family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember that and have searched for it repeatedly without success. When I read it I don't think I had read the novel yet. But afterward when I began perceiving Typhon and his clan everywhere among the characters the comment meant more to me." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T01:52:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1C5EFBF4-C412-4BD7-81EB-ABB41960819E@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Deities of the wood will of course be of the utmost relevance in " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "any Sun novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHmph! Well, I can (and have) argued that from giant eels to kelpie hierodules,\n\nto giant sea Mothers and sexy mermaids, fish god (and fish mouth) themes are \n\nof the utmost relevance in the Sun Series.\n\n \n\nLooking at the essential nature of Blue and Green planets we might conclude\n\nthat WOlfe is telling us that trees and fish are of equal significance to \n\nthis story.\n\n \n\nLooking at Dionysus we are more likely to conclude that trees (and vines, heh)\n\nare of the higher importance. Dionysus spent his early years in the sea\n\nwith Thetis (hiding from Hera) and sea themes are an important part of his cult\n\nbut overall, I concur that trees are more primary for him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see the central theme of deities of the wood very differently than Lee does " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but it's there for sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHow do we differ, Marc?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: But I *do* know what I'm talking about here, and Wolfe is throwing " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "reference after reference to Dionysus. I can't say I know exactly why. I'm saying \n\nhe's doing it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Yes, he is. (I am more arrogant than you James. I do know why.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nOkay, okay, so tell us already Marc! heh. (but seriously- I think I've read most \n\nof your posts in the past few years but I don't know what you will say) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T02:16:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB42C37.8040704@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/4/2011 1:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nThe significance of Silver is obvious, surely? The full quote is:\n****************************************************\nBut Tartaros generally turns them black and speaks. Silk said he didn't speak \nor make the window change at all, pretty often. He just looked on.\"\n****************************************************\nIn contrast to Tartaros, Silk leaves the windows the colour they are. Which is described the \nfirst time we see one as “luminous grey”. “Luminous Grey Silk” lacks both poetry and \nalliteration; thus “Silver Silk”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh. I thought your method relied SOLELY on the text. Now here you go and draw connections > based on cryptic word-smithing to derive intent from the author. Based on your model, \nshouldn't we expect him to be called \"Gray Silk\"? \"graysilk\" has a certain poetry does it not? \nSilver Silk sounds like a comic book super hero. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Here’s the difference between what I’m doing and “cryptic word-smithing”:\n\n First point: the deliberately stated contrast with Tartaros. In both the Tartaros and Silk sentences, both colour and sound were referenced. In the case of both, Silk does something different from Tartaros. Wolfe put in the Tartaros sentence so that we know exactly what the Silk sentence is telling us about what Silk does — or doesn’t do - when he controls a Window. He was afraid people wouldn’t understand what he was saying.\n\n So, we know Silk just turns on the webcam without doing anything visible or audible. The screen stays its normal colour, which Horn describes in his book as luminous grey (maybe he describes it elsewhere too, I just looked for the first description), and of course we can easily picture what that looks like. But that doesn’t mean someone who hasn’t read Horn’s book (and in the Whorl they probably haven’t) will come up with exactly the words “luminous grey” when describing it. Especially when creating epithets for a god named Silk.\n\n Let’s create some based on this behaviour. “Silent Silk” comes pretty easily and rolls nicely off the tongue. What else might he be called? “Colourless Silk?” Not very positive. “Grey Silk?” It *could* happen. “Pearly Silk” as suggested by David Stockhoff? That’s pretty much there. But “Silver Silk?” I think most devotees would prefer that. Silver is a semi-precious metal. It alliterates with Silk, and in the same way as the other epithet “Silent Silk”. \n\n This works, and it’s clearly what Wolfe had in mind in this passage. No knowledge of obscure fauns needed, you just read the book and imagine the things that Wolfe is describing and how his narrators see, understand, and describe them. *That’s* my methodology.\n\n I talk about reading the text, but I guess I mean reading it carefully and thinking about and imagining what is described in it, and how the description is affected by the situations and characters involved.\n\n Another part of my methodology is to look for a better hypothesis. And if it’s found, it strongly suggests that the weaker hypothesis should be rejected. Yes, Wolfe *can* say two things at once, but he’s not always doing it and if he is doing it I think he will tell us. (Again, he’s not writing a secret text between the lines of the overt one.)\n\n Wolfe isn’t trying to be obscure. Readers don’t need to go hunting for cryptic clues, and in my opinion they are almost certainly wasting their time if they do. If he’s afraid he’s being too subtle, he sticks in an extra flag, like the Tartaros sentence. We’re supposed to read the passage, and come away knowing what Silver Silk and Silent Silk refer to. (And it is indicated that Tartaros is active on the Whorl — in fact he seems to have come out of his shell a bit now that Echidna and her gang have been purged. *That’s* a typical example of Wolfe saying two things, and neither of them depend on onomancy... onomastur... onomasty.)\n\n When Wolfe wants to talk about Dionysus, he does, and he makes it clear that he’s talking about Dionysus. He’s not talking about Dionysus here. If he were, in the first place he’d actually say something about Dionysus, and in the second place he’d have a proper reference and not just a couple of random syllables shared with some fauns one of which was associated with Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does one cross the line between \"drawing inferences from the text\" and \"extending the > text in a way that annoys\"?\nTypically, the line is crossed when \"he\" does it, instead of \"me\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I think there’s a real difference here. In the first place, I look in different places for possible inferences. In the second place, I aggressively reject hypotheses when there are better ones. (I try to do that with my own hypotheses too.) Another difference is that I am not satisfied with “links”. ?Links? are an invitation to find stuff in random noise. And another is that a “theory” needs to be a theory. Links to Dionysus would convince me more if I had some idea of what the appearance of Dionysus is supposed to mean other than the overt meaning of the references in the text, i.e. that he is or once was one of many representations of God that are useful or appropriate in certain times or circumstances.\n\n So why did Wolfe put in Silver Silk and Silent Silk? Well, they certainly don’t seem to be a major point of the story, but then they don’t have to be. There’s a characterisation of Silk/Pas’s behaviour that’s a little different from the other gods of Mainframe, but how much it means I don’t know. And there’s an example of one way in which Man creates representations of the gods. The little things add up.\n\n - Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6CDD5BA0195844AC9B761A2226156DE6@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T02:23:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<5327C3D4-062F-40CB-841D-0D5D4EA1D6ED@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: entonio at gmail.com \nNo dia 2011/11/04, ?s 20:17, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you say that? Why not LED or some sort of liquid crystal \ntechnology?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because that wasn't available to '50s sf. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was ?90s SF. I think a lot of screen types are available.\nI do picture the Sacred Windows as big old CRTs, though. I think largely because the very bulk of them would be impressive. And come to think of it, we know they are pretty heavy, even though they can be moved.\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T02:25:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB3F8B0.3080602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd never before noticed the 'old man' part. I've always pictured Typhon as \nnot looking a day over 33." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I’d have guessed 55 or 60 (with Piaton being 20-30). Not really “old” as such, but getting on a bit.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB4A5B7.7030804@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T02:55:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB438DB.3000005@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 2:11 PM, Sergei SOLOVIEV wrote:\nTo me (IMHO) Gerry's inference looks much more convincing and closer to\nthe text,\nlet's be fair. \"Silver screen\" is (or at least was in 70-es) a commonplace\nspeaking about the television. Moreover, the cathode ray tubes (when\ntelevision used them)\ncontained silver" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In American English usage, the silver screen is the large one on which \nmotion pictures are projected, and it has been since before the \ninvention of television. The motion picture screen also contained silver \n(later replaced by aluminum) as well as having a visibly silvery \nappearance, unlike the visible portions of CRTs." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320474061.46984.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T06:21:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--- On Fri, 11/4/11, Lee Berman wrote:\nI see the central theme of deities of the wood very\ndifferently than Lee does " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but it's there for sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nHow do we differ, Marc?\n\n \n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: But I *do* know what I'm talking about\nhere, and Wolfe is throwing " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "reference after reference to Dionysus. I can't say I know\nexactly why. I'm saying \n\nhe's doing it. \n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini: Yes, he is. (I am more arrogant\nthan you James. I do know why.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \n\nOkay, okay, so tell us already Marc! heh. (but seriously- I\nthink I've read most \n\nof your posts in the past few years but I don't know what\nyou will say) ???\n????????" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Lee, our primary difference as far as the importance of dionysius is that I think it directly relates to the text and that Jesus/The Outsider were fully present in the past of the Sun as a conglomerate of the Conciliator mythos (like the Theseus/Minotaur myth appeared to syncretise with later events in history). dionysius is synonymous with the future salvation/existence of man. \n\nThe importance of the wood deity is that it is ultimately the future of mankind: existence as the Green man, his salvation and only hope of life after the new sun comes, when life is engendered in a brush that will then run up a tree. (empires of foliage and flower directly confronts vegetative matter and the sages as the masters of the supernatural manipulation of time/thyme). So Dionysius of the vine becomes another aspect of the Outsider in man's future fate.\n\nI think rather than staying strictly gnostic, Wolfe's syncretic habits and the recurring theme of imitation begetting something genuine REDEEM the gnostic and pagan elements in such a way that they, too, become salvific. \n\nSo fallen creation can actually be redeemed by the initially greedy imitation of one who emulates a benevolent goodness, and in emulating becomes it. The awakening of life in the emerald future is directly related to Dionysius' myth: Urth is flooded then the time of amalgamation into vegetative life occurs, the life of the vine.\n\nWhat people don't understand is that the subtext of short sun led me to the theme of the creation of the green man, but I could find no way to account for the passage of time Rigoglio claimed passed on Urth since he left; there simply wasn't a mechanism for that in the text, which I was looking for fiercely in the belief that Blue was Urth. As soon as Gene said Green was Urth, the mechanism I was looking for jumped out. \n\n\"I wanted to take us to Green, where Sinew is. I wanted to see him again, as I still do, and I wanted you others ... to see what real evil is so that you might understand why we on Blue must come together in brotherhood before our own whorl becomes what Green already is.\" (IGJ 321)\n\n Those things don't happen by accident, so, of course, Green is Urth and the story of Short Sun is really the story of the trees that sleep but awaken when the New Sun finally comes, when the waters recede. Thus the myth of Dionysius and its importance.\n\nThe mechanism I was looking for was the giant gap in my theory because before that I was seeking the wrong key word. You see, on a scale of certainty this particular idea is solidly 10/10 for me (the reason: couldn't find a mechanism, asked gene about a possible mechanism, he said \"no, no, no Green is urth\" then found the mechanism I couldn't find before), whereas the hyacinth is male is more like a 2/10, there are just some disturbing facts there that are not compelling but should probably seek explanation somehow.\n\nThe forest had set its own dead there as well, stumps and limbs that time had turned to stone, so that I wondered as I descended, if it might not be that Urth is not, as we assume, older than her daughters the trees, and imagined them growing in the emptiness before the face of the sun, tree clinging to tree with tangled roots and interlacing twigs until at last their accumulation became our Urth, and they only the nap of her garment. \n(Sword and Citadel 75). \n\nNotice that Severian obsesses over the trees - they seem to predate Urth itself in this passage. While it is idle speculation, it suggests that the power of the Pancreator may be nestled within the trees: \n\nI made my way through a forest less precipitous than the one through which I had followed the brook. The dark trees seemed, if anything, older. The great ferns of the south were absent there, and in fact I never saw them north of the House Absolute ... but there were wild violets with glossy leaves and flowers the exact color of poor Thecla's eyes growing between the roots of the trees, and moss like the thickest green velvet .... I heard the barking of a dog. At the sound, the silence and wonder of the trees fell back, present still but infinitely more distant. I felt that some mysterious life, old and strange, yet kindly too, had come to the very moment of revealing itself to me, then drawn away like some immensely eminent person, a master of the musicians, perhaps, whom I had struggled for years to attract to my door but who in the act of knocking had heard the voice of another guest who was unpleasing to him and had put down his hand and turned away,\n never to come again. Yet how comforting it was. \nSword and Citadel 75) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB5259F.4010308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-05T12:01:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/4/2011 10:16 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/4/2011 1:01 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The significance of Silver is obvious, surely? The full quote is:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "****************************************************" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But Tartaros generally turns them black and speaks. Silk said he \ndidn't speak" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "or make the window change at all, pretty often. He just looked on.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "****************************************************" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In contrast to Tartaros, Silk leaves the windows the colour they are. \nWhich is described the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "first time we see one as “luminous grey”. “Luminous Grey Silk” lacks \nboth poetry and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "alliteration; thus “Silver Silk”." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh. I thought your method relied SOLELY on the text. Now here you go \nand draw connections" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "based on cryptic word-smithing to derive intent from the author. \nBased on your model," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "shouldn't we expect him to be called \"Gray Silk\"? \"graysilk\" has a \ncertain poetry does it not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Silver Silk sounds like a comic book super hero.\nHere’s the difference between what I’m doing and “cryptic word-smithing”:\nFirst point: the deliberately stated contrast with Tartaros. In both \nthe Tartaros and Silk sentences, both colour and sound were \nreferenced. In the case of both, Silk does something different from \nTartaros. Wolfe put in the Tartaros sentence so that we know exactly \nwhat the Silk sentence is telling us about what Silk does — or \ndoesn’t do - when he controls a Window. He was afraid people wouldn’t \nunderstand what he was saying.\nSo, we know Silk just turns on the webcam without doing anything \nvisible or audible. The screen stays its normal colour, which Horn \ndescribes in his book as luminous grey (maybe he describes it \nelsewhere too, I just looked for the first description), and of \ncourse we can easily picture what that looks like. But that doesn’t \nmean someone who hasn’t read Horn’s book (and in the Whorl they \nprobably haven’t) will come up with exactly the words “luminous grey” \nwhen describing it. Especially when creating epithets for a god named \nSilk.\nLet’s create some based on this behaviour. “Silent Silk” comes pretty \neasily and rolls nicely off the tongue. What else might he be called? \n“Colourless Silk?” Not very positive. “Grey Silk?” It *could* happen. \n“Pearly Silk” as suggested by David Stockhoff? That’s pretty much \nthere. But “Silver Silk?” I think most devotees would prefer that. \nSilver is a semi-precious metal. It alliterates with Silk, and in the \nsame way as the other epithet “Silent Silk”.\nThis works, and it’s clearly what Wolfe had in mind in this passage. \nNo knowledge of obscure fauns needed, you just read the book and \nimagine the things that Wolfe is describing and how his narrators \nsee, understand, and describe them. *That’s* my methodology.\nI talk about reading the text, but I guess I mean reading it \ncarefully and thinking about and imagining what is described in it, \nand how the description is affected by the situations and characters \ninvolved.\nAnother part of my methodology is to look for a better hypothesis. \nAnd if it’s found, it strongly suggests that the weaker hypothesis \nshould be rejected. Yes, Wolfe *can* say two things at once, but he’s \nnot always doing it and if he is doing it I think he will tell us. \n(Again, he’s not writing a secret text between the lines of the overt \none.)\nWolfe isn’t trying to be obscure. Readers don’t need to go hunting \nfor cryptic clues, and in my opinion they are almost certainly \nwasting their time if they do. If he’s afraid he’s being too subtle, \nhe sticks in an extra flag, like the Tartaros sentence. We’re \nsupposed to read the passage, and come away knowing what Silver Silk \nand Silent Silk refer to. (And it is indicated that Tartaros is \nactive on the Whorl — in fact he seems to have come out of his shell \na bit now that Echidna and her gang have been purged. *That’s* a \ntypical example of Wolfe saying two things, and neither of them \ndepend on onomancy... onomastur... onomasty.)\nWhen Wolfe wants to talk about Dionysus, he does, and he makes it \nclear that he’s talking about Dionysus. He’s not talking about \nDionysus here. If he were, in the first place he’d actually say \nsomething about Dionysus, and in the second place he’d have a proper \nreference and not just a couple of random syllables shared with some \nfauns one of which was associated with Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How does one cross the line between \"drawing inferences from the \ntext\" and \"extending the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "text in a way that annoys\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typically, the line is crossed when \"he\" does it, instead of \"me\".\nI think there’s a real difference here. In the first place, I look in \ndifferent places for possible inferences. In the second place, I \naggressively reject hypotheses when there are better ones. (I try to \ndo that with my own hypotheses too.) Another difference is that I am \nnot satisfied with “links”. ?Links? are an invitation to find stuff \nin random noise. And another is that a “theory” needs to be a theory. \nLinks to Dionysus would convince me more if I had some idea of what \nthe appearance of Dionysus is supposed to mean other than the overt \nmeaning of the references in the text, i.e. that he is or once was \none of many representations of God that are useful or appropriate in \ncertain times or circumstances.\nSo why did Wolfe put in Silver Silk and Silent Silk? Well, they \ncertainly don’t seem to be a major point of the story, but then they \ndon’t have to be. There’s a characterisation of Silk/Pas’s behaviour \nthat’s a little different from the other gods of Mainframe, but how \nmuch it means I don’t know. And there’s an example of one way in \nwhich Man creates representations of the gods. The little things add up.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All this seems perfectly true. However:\n\n(1) You're right that no knowledge of obscure fauns is \"needed.\" Full \nunderstanding of exactly how Wolfe composes and constructs his stories \nis not \"needed.\" Not every reader knows his/her mythology backwards and \nforwards or wants to. But Wolfe does.\n\n(2) These fauns are hardly \"obscure\"!\n\n(3) The syllables \"silen\" and \"silv\" are not exactly random. If they \nwere random, they might be \"xy\" or \"kra\" or \"chih.\" Perhaps you mean \nit's pure alliteration? Silly Silk would do just as well then. Sober \nSilk. Serious Silk. Anything that starts with S and fits Silk would do.\n\nYou may not realize it but you are actually formulating a separate \ntheory here, based on nothing visible, that says \"why we should reject \nparticular data as evidence.\" It's the intellectual opposite of \"all \nnoise (i.e., linkage) is evidence.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49C22066-F689-4965-BA3C-FB542B1F9567@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T12:43:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320474061.46984.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Marc, what are you saying after all? Is Green Urth's future or its \npast? NB GW said Urth is Green, not that Green is Urth. Could the \nWhorl have reached the past, not the future? Also, you seem to say \nGreen is Urth's redemption, but the Green we know is Evil. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8F9FD21148EA44B6B809CEDDE7A988AA@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T13:01:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB5259F.4010308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(1) You're right that no knowledge of obscure fauns is \"needed.\" Full \nunderstanding of exactly how Wolfe composes and constructs his stories \nis not \"needed.\" Not every reader knows his/her mythology backwards and \nforwards or wants to. But Wolfe does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That doesn’t mean he sets cryptic crossword puzzles using this knowledge. I think he chooses names that he feels are appropriate, but they do *not* indicate that the bearer is similar to or replicating behaviour of his namesake. That would be ugly and obvious. (If a character is performing something like the labours of Hercules, he will not be named Hercules or Hercule.) Instead, the names create an ambiance. If he does tricks with the names they are in-story, like the councillors getting names of old world monkeys.\n\nRhea Silvia doesn’t contradict this: she is a particular identifiable character, not a clone. The same for Dionysus et al. Jesus on Palm Sunday isn’t named (indeed, I think Wolfe usually avoids giving names to characters we are supposed to recognise) but it’s obvious who is meant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(2) These fauns are hardly \"obscure\"!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All fauns are obscure! Except maybe Tumnus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(3) The syllables \"silen\" and \"silv\" are not exactly random. If they \nwere random, they might be \"xy\" or \"kra\" or \"chih.\" Perhaps you mean \nit's pure alliteration? Silly Silk would do just as well then. Sober \nSilk. Serious Silk. Anything that starts with S and fits Silk would do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "“Silent” and “Silver” are not random. The reasons they are used is given, and is clear. Actually it would be hard to find equally good alternatives given the story, but of course Wolfe, if he wanted to put in some cryptic reference of the kind postulated, could have had Silk develop some characteristic other than looking silently through the Sacred Windows. \n\nThe “link” to Silenus and Silvanus is random, IMO. \n\nTartaros is called “Tenebrous Tartarus”. In Magic the Gathering there’s a card:\n\nTeneb, the Harvester\nLegendary Creature — Dragon\nFlying\nWhenever Teneb, the Harvester deals combat damage to a player, you may pay 2 Black mana. If you do, put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.\nSo... maybe Tartaros killed that mysterious dead woman in the alley, and that gave him the power to restore Auk (who actually died of his head injury) to life?\n\nOr we could try the Sith Lord Teneb from Star wars, that might work better with the gods of Mainframe. \n\nYou may think these are laughable, but with a bit of effort I could find better syllables everywhere. If I boned up on ancient mythology, I could do just as well as googling for nerd mythology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You may not realize it but you are actually formulating a separate \ntheory here, based on nothing visible, that says \"why we should reject \nparticular data as evidence.\" It's the intellectual opposite of \"all \nnoise (i.e., linkage) is evidence.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What theory do you think I’m formulating, exactly? I’ll allow that syllabic evidence like this might in principle mean something in some cases. I’m pointing out that in assessing it you must realise how much similar stuff can be found in random noise — I think people underestimate that.\n\nDo we have cases where the syllables clearly mean something in terms of a particular seemingly unconnected referent?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T13:01:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB5259F.4010308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/05, ?s 12:01, David Stockhoff \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're right that no knowledge of obscure fauns is \"needed.\" Full \nunderstanding of exactly how Wolfe composes and constructs his \nstories is not \"needed.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This ties in with a point I never see made but I think is quite \nimportant. People strive to find 'logical', 'scientific' explanations \nfor everything, and when they find them, or think they did, 'that's \nit'. Well, sorry, no. It may usually be it, but, scientifically \nspeaking, maximum likelihood and certainty aren't the same thing. \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D3629B3-DAEF-45E0-80BE-7B6890F91A40@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T13:18:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2011/11/05, ?s 02:16, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silver is a semi-precious metal. It alliterates with Silk, and in \nthe same way as the other epithet “Silent Silk”.\n\nThis works, and it’s clearly what Wolfe had in mind in this passa \nge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So when your parents called you Gerry, it can't possibly have been \nbecause they liked the sound AND the meaning AND it was the name of a \nrelative. Surely ONE of those reasons suffices so it's clearly the one \nthey had in mind. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6C8AB1ED91C746E68F9E8F67AA9B3F1B@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T14:30:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4D3629B3-DAEF-45E0-80BE-7B6890F91A40@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: entonio at gmail.com \nNo dia 2011/11/05, ?s 02:16, \"Gerry Quinn\" \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Silver is a semi-precious metal. It alliterates with Silk, and in \nthe same way as the other epithet “Silent Silk”.\n\nThis works, and it’s clearly what Wolfe had in mind in this passage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So when your parents called you Gerry, it can't possibly have been \nbecause they liked the sound AND the meaning AND it was the name of a \nrelative. Surely ONE of those reasons suffices so it's clearly the one \nthey had in mind. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, there were such reasons. The explanation of Silent Silk and Silver Silk has multiple reasons too — alliteration as well as meaning in terms of the story about Silk as well as silver being precious, and I think something about how aspects of gods get named.\nBut this Silvanus/Silenus thing... is there any actual *reason* being proposed — or just another “link” that doesn’t have to make any sense? \nI mean it can’t be that Silk is Dionysus, because then Wolfe would have called him something with a “Di-? sound, right” So Silk must be a faun... two fauns, actually, one of whom had nothing in particular to do with Dionysus. Why fauns? Why not bunnies? Bunnies aren’t cute like everyone supposes...\nI can’t *prove* from the text that no such link was intended, just like I can’t prove from the text that Hyacinth didn’t have a dick (which candidly I think is actually *less* unlikely than a lot of the hypotheses that get thrown around here, and at least it makes her “swordsman” line funny). I reject such hypotheses because I know I generally only have to read the text to find better. \nHow come nobody even mentioned the clearly stated explanation of Silent and Silver Silk before now? Those who object to my claim that my methodology largely involves reading the text have some questions to answer. How can one run with the faun theory and seemingly not even notice the other?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T15:07:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<6C8AB1ED91C746E68F9E8F67AA9B3F1B@Rover>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're right that no knowledge of obscure fauns is \"needed.\" Full\nunderstanding of exactly how Wolfe composes and constructs his\nstories is not \"needed.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques:\nThis ties in with a point I never see made but I think is quite\nimportant. People strive to find 'logical', 'scientific' explanations\nfor everything, and when they find them, or think they did, 'that's\nit'. Well, sorry, no. It may usually be it, but, scientifically\nspeaking, maximum likelihood and certainty aren't the same thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, it is an important point. And especially in regard to the\n\nwork of Gene Wolfe. Considering his biography, he is a man who spent\n\nhis pre-writing years surrounded by engineers and mechanics who likely\n\napplied their professional leanings toward their understanding of the\n\nworld.\n\n\n\nI can imagine many coffee break conversations over the years in which\n\nWolfe was faced with material/scientific explanations of the world which\n\nconclude with, \"and that's it. Nothing else is needed\".\n\n\n\nThe core of some of the debates in here mirrors the debate between the\n\nman of faith and the atheist. The argument always boils down to:\n\n\"you are missing something\" vs. \"you are imagining things\". \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB554AB.1080603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-05T15:22:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<6C8AB1ED91C746E68F9E8F67AA9B3F1B@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 10:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHow come nobody even mentioned the clearly stated explanation of \nSilent and Silver Silk before now? Those who object to my claim that \nmy methodology largely involves reading the text have some questions \nto answer. How can one run with the faun theory and seemingly not \neven notice the other?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the reason was that they were readily seen, known, and agreed \nupon. Not mentioning doesn't mean not noticing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T15:25:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB554AB.1080603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Well, Lee, our primary difference as far as the importance of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "dionysius is that I think it directly relates to the text and that Jesus/The " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Outsider were fully present in the past of the Sun as a conglomerate of the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Conciliator mythos (like the Theseus/Minotaur myth appeared to syncretise with " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "later events in history). dionysius is synonymous with the future salvation/existence " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of man. The importance of the wood deity is that it is ultimately the future of mankind: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "existence as the Green man, his salvation and only hope of life after the new sun comes, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "when life is engendered in a brush that will then run up a tree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWell explained, Marc. I think you might be overestimating our differences on this\n\nissue but that is understandable. There has been much debate on whether there is/\n\nhas been a Christ in Briah and I've come out on the side of thinking no.\n\n \n\nWhat the debate may have obscured (though it is a point I do make on occasion) is that\n\nI DO think Briah is being prepared for a Christ yet to come. Wolfe mentions the \n\noccasional Abaia or Juripari or other outlying mythological character. But most of the\n\nfocus of his mythological references are (as you point out) the direct precursors to\n\nChristianity and Christ, Greek, Roman and Persian mythology were surely more important\n\nto laying the spadework for the coming of Christ than, say, Shinto.\n\n \n\nSo I agree with you about everything but time frame. And I'm not sure it is such a crucial\n\npoint whether Christ has appeared and been forgotten and must reappear in Briah or whether\n\nthey are still waiting for his first appearance.\n\n \n\nIn my view, Urth is a spiritually retarded Earth. Or, if we consider our own gnostic period\n\non earth to be our \"teen years\", perhaps we can think that Urth (and the Whorl and Green/Blue) \n\nhad a prolonged adolescence and are finally ready to grow up by the end of UotNS (and RttW)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques:But Marc, what are you saying after all? Is Green Urth's future or its \npast? NB GW said Urth is Green, not that Green is Urth. Could the \nWhorl have reached the past, not the future? Also, you seem to say \nGreen is Urth's redemption, but the Green we know is Evil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nPerhaps Antonio is onto something. Perhaps debating whether a timeless being like Christ is in\n\nUrth's past and/or future is meant to be presented as a meaningless debate by Wolfe. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB5581B.8030002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-05T15:36:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<8F9FD21148EA44B6B809CEDDE7A988AA@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 9:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(1) You're right that no knowledge of obscure fauns is \"needed.\" Full\nunderstanding of exactly how Wolfe composes and constructs his stories\nis not \"needed.\" Not every reader knows his/her mythology backwards and\nforwards or wants to. But Wolfe does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That doesn’t mean he sets cryptic crossword puzzles using this \nknowledge. I think he chooses names that he feels are appropriate, but \nthey do *not* indicate that the bearer is similar to or replicating \nbehaviour of his namesake. That would be ugly and obvious. (If a \ncharacter is performing something like the labours of Hercules, he \nwill not be named Hercules or Hercule.) Instead, the names create an \nambiance. If he does tricks with the names they are in-story, like the \ncouncillors getting names of old world monkeys.\nRhea Silvia doesn’t contradict this: she is a particular identifiable \ncharacter, not a clone. The same for Dionysus et al. Jesus on Palm \nSunday isn’t named (indeed, I think Wolfe usually avoids giving names \nto characters we are supposed to recognise) but it’s obvious who is meant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But how cryptic is it really? That's my point. You argue that Wolfe \nplays word games, but not this time. How is Lemur/Potto/etc. a different \ngame?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(2) These fauns are hardly \"obscure\"!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All fauns are obscure! Except maybe Tumnus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can only disagree. Anyone who knows Dionysus and his connections knows \nabout fauns. If Dionysus is important, so are fauns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(3) The syllables \"silen\" and \"silv\" are not exactly random. If they\nwere random, they might be \"xy\" or \"kra\" or \"chih.\" Perhaps you mean\nit's pure alliteration? Silly Silk would do just as well then. Sober\nSilk. Serious Silk. Anything that starts with S and fits Silk would do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "“Silent” and “Silver” are not random. The reasons they are used is \ngiven, and is clear. Actually it would be hard to find equally good \nalternatives given the story, but of course Wolfe, if he wanted to put \nin some cryptic reference of the kind postulated, could have had Silk \ndevelop some characteristic other than looking silently through the \nSacred Windows.\nThe “link” to Silenus and Silvanus is random, IMO." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he didn't. He chose these. Do you mean the link is chance? And that \nWolfe would allow that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tartaros is called “Tenebrous Tartarus”. In Magic the Gathering \nthere’s a card:\nTeneb, the Harvester\nLegendary Creature — Dragon\nFlying\nWhenever Teneb, the Harvester deals combat damage to a player, you may \npay 2 Black mana. If you do, put target creature card from a graveyard \nonto the battlefield under your control.\nSo... maybe Tartaros killed that mysterious dead woman in the alley, \nand that gave him the power to restore Auk (who actually died of his \nhead injury) to life?\nOr we could try the Sith Lord Teneb from Star wars, that might work \nbetter with the gods of Mainframe.\nYou may think these are laughable, but with a bit of effort I could \nfind better syllables everywhere. If I boned up on ancient mythology, \nI could do just as well as googling for nerd mythology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't follow. Tenebrous is simply a word. The invention \"Teneb\" is \nobviously derived from it. So what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You may not realize it but you are actually formulating a separate\ntheory here, based on nothing visible, that says \"why we should reject\nparticular data as evidence.\" It's the intellectual opposite of \"all\nnoise (i.e., linkage) is evidence.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What theory do you think I’m formulating, exactly? I’ll allow that \nsyllabic evidence like this might in principle mean something in some \ncases. I’m pointing out that in assessing it you must realise how much \nsimilar stuff can be found in random noise — I think people \nunderestimate that.\nDo we have cases where the syllables clearly mean something in terms \nof a particular seemingly unconnected referent?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is that the only way to test it---that we must find exactly identical \nparallel \"cryptic word puzzles\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<732292DA83B348E4B8DF95FEFE802FB3@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T15:42:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB554AB.1080603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/5/2011 10:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nHow come nobody even mentioned the clearly stated explanation of \nSilent and Silver Silk before now? Those who object to my claim that \nmy methodology largely involves reading the text have some questions \nto answer. How can one run with the faun theory and seemingly not \neven notice the other?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought the reason was that they were readily seen, known, and agreed \nupon. Not mentioning doesn't mean not noticing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Check the Urth archives.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320508112.6827.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T15:48:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<49C22066-F689-4965-BA3C-FB542B1F9567@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He said in response to my question about the that Green is urth. Green is, of course, Urth's future.\n\nThis is the rise of the green man, and the ruins on green are all that remains of Nessus.\n\nI'm tired of this being misquoted.\nHere it is.\n\nhttp://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc282/maramini/IMG_0465.jpg" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nFrom: entonio at gmail.com \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320508383.17810.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T15:53:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320508112.6827.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And as far as Green's redemption being evil ... hostile to normal biological men now. Is Severian's salvation false? Is the Green man evil? I don't know. I just know Green is the future of Urth, with certainty." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T16:06:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320508112.6827.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He said in response to my question about the that Green is urth. Green is, of course, Urth's future.\nThis is the rise of the green man, and the ruins on green are all that remains of Nessus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Earlier you quoted: “we on Blue must come together in brotherhood before our own whorl becomes what Green already is”.\nGreen can be Urth in metaphor, but not in objective reality (leaving all else aside, where’s Lune and what’s Blue?). So too with inhumi and lianas.\nAnd the brush that comes to life is a metaphor too, for the effect of the life bringing New Sun on moribund Urth.\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320510017.52558.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T16:20:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 9:06 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He said in response to my question about the that Green is urth. Green is, of course, Urth's future.\nThis? is the rise of the green man, and the ruins on green are all that remains of Nessus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Earlier you quoted: ?\nwe on Blue must come together in brotherhood before our own whorl becomes what Green already is?.\n\n\n\nGreen can be Urth in metaphor, but not in objective reality (leaving all else aside, where’s Lune and what’s Blue?). So too with inhumi and lianas.\n\n\n\nAnd the brush that comes to life is a metaphor too, for the effect of the life bringing New Sun on moribund Urth.\n\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nHe corrected me that Blue was most definitely not Urth. Is such a correction necessary in metaphor? I asked him if Silk passing through the same passage that the ship in UotNS past through would result in him winding up on past Urth from it's future (Blue), and his response was, No, no, NO!? Green is Urth. This is a very specific correction. It's not a metaphor. It's concrete. — And there was the mechanism I was looking for. It's the same place, metaphorically, concretely, absolutely. However you want to cut it. Otherwise that mechanism and all the speculation about, asking myself about what I had really meant thinking about green etc etc from the narrator IS just white noise." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320510225.51519.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T16:23:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We can agree it's not simile!? that would have been cool and more clear. \"No, no, no!? Green is like or as Urth!\"? bwa ha ha ha ha ha. \n\nThe fallout from that chain of events is why I stopped posting for YEARS. (and there was a point in Wizard Knight where it said \"Garsecg was [someone]\" and when I pulled that quote out someone asked the editor of Tor if it was a typo, received confirmation it was, and I realized the list was no longer a useful place to discuss Wolfe to achieve a deeper understanding; I would have to do it on my own)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB56346.1050404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T16:24:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*From:* Marc Aramini \nHe corrected me that Blue was most definitely not Urth. Is such a \ncorrection necessary in metaphor? I asked him if Silk passing through \nthe same passage that the ship in UotNS past through would result in \nhim winding up on past Urth from it's future (Blue), and his response \nwas, No, no, NO! Green is Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait! So shouldn't Green be Urth's *past*?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB563C9.4040907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T16:26:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB56346.1050404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 11:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Marc Aramini \nHe corrected me that Blue was most definitely not Urth. Is such a \ncorrection necessary in metaphor? I asked him if Silk passing \nthrough the same passage that the ship in UotNS past through would \nresult in him winding up on past Urth from it's future (Blue), and \nhis response was, No, no, NO! Green is Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait! So shouldn't Green be Urth's *past*?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Never mind. I see your point." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320510451.41295.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T16:27:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB56346.1050404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 9:24 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \n“He corrected me that Blue was most definitely not Urth. Is such a correction necessary in metaphor?” I asked him if Silk passing through the same passage that the ship in UotNS past through would result in him winding up on past Urth from it's future (Blue), and his response was, No, no, NO!? Green is Urth.\n\nWait! So shouldn't Green be Urth's *past*?\n\n\n\n\nWhy? He is reaching back in time when he travels. This is the rise of the Green man. Why on Urth would Green be in the past when we see the ruins of Nessus and Horn travelling through it? end of citadel, it will be emerald green in the future after the new sun comes. Quotes like, how green it is after the rains in OBW. come on." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320510619.35341.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T16:30:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB56346.1050404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 9:24 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \n“He corrected me that Blue was most definitely not Urth. Is such a correction necessary in metaphor?” I asked him if Silk passing through the same passage that the ship in UotNS past through would result in him winding up on past Urth from it's future (Blue), and his response was, No, no, NO!? Green is Urth.\n\nWait! So shouldn't Green be Urth's *past*?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "sorry I didn't see you're never mind!? heh heh" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB5654D.60907@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T16:33:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320510451.41295.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " *From:* Marc Aramini\n \n\n He corrected me that Blue was most definitely not Urth. Is such\n a correction necessary in metaphor? I asked him if Silk passing\n through the same passage that the ship in UotNS past through\n would result in him winding up on past Urth from it's future\n (Blue), and his response was, No, no, NO! Green is Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Wait! So shouldn't Green be Urth's *past*?\n\nWhy? He is reaching back in time when he travels. This is the rise \nof the Green man. Why on Urth would Green be in the past when we see \nthe ruins of Nessus and Horn travelling through it? end of citadel, \nit will be emerald green in the future after the new sun comes. \nQuotes like, how green it is after the rains in OBW. come on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you then arguing that the Neighbors are the Hieros?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB56C39.2010707@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T17:02:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320510225.51519.YahooMailClassic@web161805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 11:23 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nWe can agree it's not simile! that would have been cool and more clear.\n\"No, no, no! Green is like or as Urth!\" bwa ha ha ha ha ha.\nThe fallout from that chain of events is why I stopped posting for\nYEARS. (and there was a point in Wizard Knight where it said \"Garsecg\nwas [someone]\" and when I pulled that quote out someone asked the editor\nof Tor if it was a typo, received confirmation it was, and I realized\nthe list was no longer a useful place to discuss Wolfe to achieve a\ndeeper understanding; I would have to do it on my own)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would that occasion disqualify the list in that way?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at clueland.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320514334.61751.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T17:32:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB5654D.60907@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 9:33 AM\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini \n“He corrected me that Blue was most definitely not Urth. Is such a correction necessary in metaphor?” I asked him if Silk passing through the same passage that the ship in UotNS past through would result in him winding up on past Urth from it's future (Blue), and his response was, No, no, NO!? Green is Urth.\n\nWait! So shouldn't Green be Urth's *past*?\n\n\nWhy? He is reaching back in time when he travels. This is the rise of the Green man. Why on Urth would Green be in the past when we see the ruins of Nessus and Horn travelling through it? end of citadel, it will be emerald green in the future after the new sun comes. Quotes like, how green it is after the rains in OBW. come on.\nAre you then arguing that the Neighbors are the Hieros?\n\n\n\nSomething like that, they are all that was left of man on future Urth. So if that might be the Green Men or the Hieros ... how is the green man related to the heiros? Not sure what a second generation non-hybrid neighbor would look like or if there would ever be a possibility for limb reduction." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320515183.73995.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T17:46:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB56C39.2010707@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 10:02 AM\nOn 11/5/2011 11:23 AM, Marc Aramini\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We can agree it's not simile! that would have been\ncool and more clear.\n\"No, no, no! Green is like or as Urth!\" bwa ha ha ha\nha ha.\nThe fallout from that chain of events is why I stopped\nposting for\nYEARS. (and there was a point in Wizard Knight where\nit said \"Garsecg\nwas [someone]\" and when I pulled that quote out\nsomeone asked the editor\nof Tor if it was a typo, received confirmation it was,\nand I realized\nthe list was no longer a useful place to discuss Wolfe\nto achieve a\ndeeper understanding; I would have to do it on my\nown)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would that occasion disqualify the list in that way?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Insights were actively quelled, dismissed as irrelvant by editors, close analysis of the text was cosntantly being put to Occam's razor in a way that is simply not viable when discussing a cryptic author like Wolfe concerned with identity, lying, and obscurity, and the crash of the list at that time had me defending the same points over and over and over - when anyone can re-read and see that the ruined city on Green, once pointed out, is the physical remains of Nessus.\n\nGever's unethical behavior had angered me to an immense extent. I was going to wait to get Gene's permission to share the information, yet Gevers proposed a small private exchange of information which I assumed would be secure until I had attained that permission, and in my avarice for \"secrets\" I agreed, sharing it with him. He laughed and said it was just a big joke on me, (on a Christmas card, no less) told me his secret was Gene was not going to write any more Sun books, then confronted Gene about it immediaately, an event which prevented Gene from ever sharing anything about his works with me in the future. \n\nThe point is that Gene liked me and my interpretive style, and that was a VERY specific correction to a VERY specific theory, and there was immediate corroboration in the text. He corrected nothing else about my Short Sun theories. In addition, Gene didn't want to put out the final word on this- he hid it hermetically for a reason, to be an endring but not insoluble mystery, so I SHOULD have just kept it to myself, but it is difficult when you care about something as much as I care about Gene's work.\n\nI realized that, even when confronted with the truth, the list could not see it and would disagre; not until Dave Tallman started posting on An Evil Guest years and years later did I see much interesting interpretive work being down in the fashion that Wolfe's work requires. I would see soemthing like, hey, these trees are fishy five years after I extolled my theory and quell the urge to retread the same worn paths of disappointment. \n\nI sound like a prick, I know; sometimes you are right and no amount of disavowal can change that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB58478.3020809@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T18:46:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320515183.73995.YahooMailClassic@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 12:46 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI realized that, even when confronted with the truth, the list could not see it and would disagre; not until Dave Tallman started posting on An Evil Guest years and years later did I see much interesting interpretive work being down in the fashion that Wolfe's work requires. I would see soemthing like, hey, these trees are fishy five years after I extolled my theory and quell the urge to retread the same worn paths of disappointment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, Marc, the thing is that you and I have agreed about those \ntrees and liannas from the beginning. Yet, we fundamentally disagree \nabout their relationship to the main character. And, even more so, when \nwe have people who adamantly refuse to acknowledge that Dionysus is an \nimportant touchstone even in Return To The Whorl, let alone the rest of \nthe series...well, you have to set proper expectations. I can understand \nyour frustration in that you believe that you have discovered a \nrevealing understanding of a quite opaque story, and you would have \nliked some help, but all you get is hand-waving.\n\nBut there are obstacles and the obstacles have to be acknowledged in \norder to be resolved:\n* Astronomy: What is Blue (with presumably similar gravity to Urth)? \nWhere is Lune? How did Green in up in this weird twin planet relationship?\n\n* Zoology: The existence of the inhumi and Blue's very particular \nwildlife is something. Of course, they could be transplants from \nelsewhere...as could the Neighbors (ala the world of An Evil Guest).\n\n* Humanity: If the Neighbors are NOT humanity's future, where have they \ngone. There's the barnacled fellow Horn encounters coming from beneath \nthe waves. Has humanity moved below the seas of Blue? Green certainly \nseems abandoned of humanity except for immigrants from the Whorl.\n\nThe hostility and derision you received did not come from a good place. \nThe lack of support you received is something: People just didn't know \nwhere to go with the Green Urth Theory based on the obstacles. This \nmakes me think of my Tussah-Typhon theory. It works on a lot of levels \nbut I know it is not *quite* right--there's something else going on I'm \nnot aware of. I am only confident that it is pointing in the right \ndirection." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T18:56:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB58478.3020809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry I'm a little late to this part of the discussion.\n\nIf \"Silver\" refers to \"Silvanus\" then this might be one of Wolfe's\netymological jokes: \"argentum\" is silver while \"ager\" is \"field,\nwild.\" While Silvanus is \"god of the woods\" he is also a god of\nagriculture, like Aristaeus. Argeus (or Agreus) is also an aspect of Pan.\n\nThen there's Argentina (\"silver\" or \"shining\" place) -- hello Borges,\nNessus.\n\nPhanes is \"the shining one\" or \"argent.\"\n\nDionysus/Phanes is in every book Wolfe has written." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB58A74.2030109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T19:11:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<732292DA83B348E4B8DF95FEFE802FB3@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2011 10:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* David Stockhoff \nOn 11/5/2011 10:30 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How come nobody even mentioned the clearly stated explanation of\nSilent and Silver Silk before now? Those who object to my claim that\nmy methodology largely involves reading the text have some questions\nto answer. How can one run with the faun theory and seemingly not\neven notice the other?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought the reason was that they were readily seen, known, and agreed\nupon. Not mentioning doesn't mean not noticing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Check the Urth archives.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The search in the archives is notoriously unreliable. However, honestly, \nI didn't think there was anything revealing or debatable about Wolfe's \nrationalization for assigning the names \"Silent Silk/Silver Silk\" to the \nWhorl god. The issue is the reason WHY he had people assign those two \nseparate designations to the god in the first place.\n\nOkay. Then, I am going to apply Gerry's literary criticism method to a \nhypothetical book.\n\nThis book makes references to \"Lorina Liddell's sister\" and \"Lodh \nCarol\". The main character (a blonde BOY wearing a blue and white \noutfit) enters a cave around which rabbits have created extensive \nwarrens. On the other side, he meets a wagon maker (latin, \n\"carpentarius\") who says he used to work at Sea World where he trained a \nwalrus to do tricks. His nemeses are a pair of overweight twins named \nDeter and Dumball who are the leaders of opposing sides in a gang war. \nOne of them explains that their weight problems are due to a congenital \ncondition cause by a leptin condition. They explain that their parents \nnamed them for the two closest towns to the house where they were born.\n\nNow using Gerry's method, it is ludicrous to think the author is \nflashing references to the works of Lewis Carroll. After all, the \nmeaning of Deter and Dumball's names is clearly explained and is not \nliterary at all. Their chubbiness is a result of a specific plot element \nin their lives. Analyzing the plot with reference to Alice's adventures \nin Wonderland is a terrific waste of time.\n\nI think this method is counter-productive." } ] }, { "message_id": "<90ACE7ED84BB4D8584D722EDC23F5DEB@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T19:55:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB58A74.2030109@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn \n\nOkay. Then, I am going to apply Gerry's literary criticism method to a hypothetical book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This book makes references to \"Lorina Liddell's sister\" and \"Lodh Carol\". The main character (a blonde > BOY wearing a blue and white outfit) enters a cave around which rabbits have created extensive > > > warrens. On the other side, he meets a wagon maker (latin, \"carpentarius\") who says he used to work > at Sea World where he trained a walrus to do tricks. His nemeses are a pair of overweight twins > > > named Deter and Dumball who are the leaders of opposing sides in a gang war. One of them >\nexplains that their weight problems are due to a congenital condition cause by a leptin condition\n. They explain that their parents named them for the two closest towns to the house where they were >born. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now using Gerry's method, it is ludicrous to think the author is flashing references to the works of \nLewis Carroll. After all, the meaning of Deter and Dumball's names is clearly explained and is not >literary at all. Their chubbiness is a result of a specific plot element in their lives. Analyzing the plot >with reference to Alice's adventures in Wonderland is a terrific waste of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this method is counter-productive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For a book such as you describe, it would be counterproductive — and I do not doubt that such books may very well exist.\nThere remains the question, however, of whether Gene Wolfe writes books of this kind, and I do not think he does. \n- Gerry Quinn\n \n\n\n\n\n\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320524164.35432.YahooMailNeo@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T20:16:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Human sacrifice", "in_reply_to": "<4EB450F3.1060605@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/3/2011 2:02 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Jerry Friedman: But I don't think we can say Lake Diuturna /is/\n Lake Titicaca, or say, \"At this point Severian is near a place \nwhere children were\n ritually exposed, which tells us something about what he encountered \nhere.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Hm. I'm not so quick to dismiss. The Inca rulers of the area were, like \nmost other\n southern Native American groups, pretty damn brutal (we see the precursor \nto it with\n Apu Punchau's tribe). Pia's slavery and Baldanders' human \nsacrifices might be\n intended as a reflection of the pre-Christian culture of the area (which \ncontinues on to this day? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.religionnewsblog.com/5970/peru-police-probe-possible-human-sacrifice" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are lots of places in the world where barbarity, cruelty, and despotism have\nbeen practiced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " (Did anyone see Apocalypto? I see it as Mel Gibson's answer to the \nanti-Christopher Columbus\n movement and the Sun Series may have similar intent. The hours of Mayan \nbarbarity and cruelty\n we are drenched in is enough to make the sight of Christian conquistador \nships at the end\n cause a sigh of relief in the most steadfast atheist, progressive/liberal)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt it would work that way for me (if I made it to the end)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm rereading Long Lake, and in Exodus Remora informs Mint that child \nsacrifice used to be practiced in manteions in the Whorl. So this is plainly a \nconcern of Wolfe's, just as it is to Christians in general (Abraham). (I \nwould guess the slang term \"abram\"=crazy comes from this practice.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As everyone here but me probably knows already, an \"Abraham man\" or\n\"Abram man\" was a beggar, later also a petty criminal, who pretended to\nbe insane.\n\nThe OED says, \"The original reason for the association \nof Abraham with\nmadness is unclear; the parable of the beggar Lazarus \nbeing “carried\nby the angels into Abraham's bosom” (Luke 16:22, A.V.) \nmay be relevant,\nand the story of Abraham's departure from his own \ncountry (Genesis 12)\nmay perhaps have led to an association with \nvagrancy. Evidence to\nsupport the assertion (see e.g. J. Timbs Things Not Generally Known\n(1856) 127, J. C. Hotten Slang Dict. (new ed., 1864 ? ) 65) that there\nwas an “Abraham ward” in the Hospital of St. Mary of Bethlehem is\nlacking.\"\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB5A1CC.4000508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T20:51:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Human sacrifice", "in_reply_to": "<1320524164.35432.YahooMailNeo@web114704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm rereading Long Lake, and in Exodus Remora informs Mint that child\nsacrifice used to be practiced in manteions in the Whorl. So this is plainly a\nconcern of Wolfe's, just as it is to Christians in general (Abraham). (I\nwould guess the slang term \"abram\"=crazy comes from this practice.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nAs everyone here but me probably knows already, an \"Abraham man\" or\n\"Abram man\" was a beggar, later also a petty criminal, who pretended to\nbe insane.\n\nThe OED says, \"The original reason for the association\nof Abraham with madness is unclear; the parable of the beggar Lazarus\nbeing “carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom” (Luke 16:22, A.V.)\nmay be relevant, and the story of Abraham's departure from his own\ncountry (Genesis 12)may perhaps have led to an association with\nvagrancy. Evidence to support the assertion (see e.g. J. Timbs Things Not Generally Known\n(1856) 127, J. C. Hotten Slang Dict. (new ed., 1864 ) 65) that there\nwas an “Abraham ward” in the Hospital of St. Mary of Bethlehem is\nlacking.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Human sacrifice is practiced elsewhere. It is the best way to summon a \ngod to a sacred window--especially child sacrifice. When Echidna \npossessed Marble at Rose's funeral, she demanded a sacrifice to herself \nof dozens of children. So presumably they still do that in Trivigaunte \nwhere she is still worshiped as the only god.\n\nProlocutor Quetzal ended human sacrifice particularly in order to \nprevent the appearance of a god at the manteons. He claims he did it to \nprevent people from finding out that Pas had been murdered. But it is \nmore likely that he doesn't want to be around when a god appears lest \nthey see through his disguise. But he could have more than one reason.\n\nYou know, I don't want to disparage the writers of the OED but reviewing \nit casually the connection seems obvious:\n\n1) Abram/Abraham twice attempted to con people by passing his wife off \nas his sister.\n\n2) The term \"Abraham man\" became a term for sham artist or con man. \nEventually, the term \"abram\" settled onto a particular type of sham \nartist: beggars who pretended to be mad in order to illicit sympathy. \nAnd that is the connection between \"abram\" and madness.\n\nI can't find anywhere that \"abram\" is ACTUALLY defined as being mad (as \nit means in Viron), rather than pretending to be mad. Having nothing to \ndo with anything, the Universal Etymological English Dictionary [1737] \ndefines \"abram\" as being naked or nearly naked.\n\n(\"Apocalypto\" is among the best action films ever made. I can understand \nJerry's personal aversion to Gibson, but he is not overrated as a film \nmaker.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320527109.45295.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T21:05:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB58478.3020809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, James Wynn wrote:\nFrom: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, Marc, the thing is that you and I have agreed\nabout those trees and liannas from the beginning. Yet, we\nfundamentally disagree about their relationship to the main\ncharacter. And, even more so, when we have people who\nadamantly refuse to acknowledge that Dionysus is an\nimportant touchstone even in Return To The Whorl, let alone\nthe rest of the series...well, you have to set proper\nexpectations. I can understand your frustration in that you\nbelieve that you have discovered a revealing understanding\nof a quite opaque story, and you would have liked some help,\nbut all you get is hand-waving.\n\nBut there are obstacles and the obstacles have to be\nacknowledged in order to be resolved:\n* Astronomy: What is Blue (with presumably similar gravity\nto Urth)? Where is Lune? How did Green in up in this weird\ntwin planet relationship?\n\n* Zoology: The existence of the inhumi and Blue's very\nparticular wildlife is something. Of course, they could be\ntransplants from elsewhere...as could the Neighbors (ala the\nworld of An Evil Guest).\n\n* Humanity: If the Neighbors are NOT humanity's future,\nwhere have they gone. There's the barnacled fellow Horn\nencounters coming from beneath the waves. Has humanity moved\nbelow the seas of Blue? Green certainly seems abandoned of\nhumanity except for immigrants from the Whorl.\n\nThe hostility and derision you received did not come from a\ngood place. The lack of support you received is something:\nPeople just didn't know where to go with the Green Urth\nTheory based on the obstacles. This makes me think of\nmy Tussah-Typhon theory. It works on a lot of levels but I\nknow it is not *quite* right--there's something else going\non I'm not aware of. I am only confident that it is pointing\nin the right direction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes James, my criticism is least of all directed at you. It was just unfortunate that I wanted to share something with the list and it ultimately cost me an intimate relationship with Wolfe in speaking about his work AND the derision of the list in one fell swoop.\n\nLune's presence in the sky in New Sun is a big problem - especially since I was thinking for a while that maybe the Whorl was the hollowed out Lune (thus my question, is \"an asteroid\" necessarily not the moon?) But if it went somewhere, how did it come back to appear in Sev's sky, much closer? \n\nSome cataclysmic cosmic event does happen to the solar system at the end of Urth of the New Sun, but I don't know how to account for the changes. Apheta's race can make planets out of nothing, but I'm not sure how to apply that. The temperature scheme is Blue colder than Red Sun Whorl is colder than Green, so that is at least seems accurate. The city on Green and Nessus are compared by the narrator multiple times. There is a mechanism wherein he thinks of Green before the evil when he accidentally winds up on Urth (of course Rigoglio is there thinking of Urth, too).\n\nThe Neighbors are all that is left of old mankind: eaten and assimilated. They are not a problem except insofar as their origin is attributed to Blue, right? They went elsewhere or when like the Hieros.\n\nAnd I really do believe the hybridization is the ONLY way to reconcile that life on Blue and its weird doubled quality - those trees are definitely sentient and eat things, the question is if that is their reproductive pathway as it is for the inhumi and for the creature in Talk of Mandrakes. \n\nI am fairly confident that thing with the stiff birdlike gait on the very high ground on Green is some echo or shadow of Severian from the high ground on his unsubmerged island pinnacle, though." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320529488.21333.YahooMailNeo@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T21:44:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques > \nI'd never before noticed the 'old man' part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me neither." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've always pictured Typhon as not looking a day over 33. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I’d have guessed 55 or 60 (with Piaton being 20-30). Not really “old” as\nsuch, but getting on a bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have trouble imagining how Severian could think a person with a fifty-\nsomething head and a twenty-something head and body was born that\nway. But then I've long had trouble imagining how he could think it no\nmatter what the ages were. Were they matched in skin color, hairiness,\netc?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T21:48:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320529488.21333.YahooMailNeo@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nick Lee: Dionysus/Phanes is in every book Wolfe has written. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nNow, THAT'S a statement!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: ... And, even more so, when we have people who adamantly " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "refuse to acknowledge that Dionysus is an important touchstone even " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in Return To The Whorl, let alone the rest of the series...well, you " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "have to set proper expectations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think it is important to recognize that not everyone comes to this\n\nforum as a scholar. Some are pure observers, some are jesters and, of\n\ncourse, some are warriors. Surely each plays his/her important part.\n\n \n\nI think Gerry is a good example of a warrior. Notice his recent invocation \n\nof metaphor in doing battle against Marc's Green is Urth concept. Poetic and \n\nliterary interpretation are in his tool kit when they serve his purpose.\n\nBut blunt, literal interpretations will be used when he feels they would are \n\nthe appropriate weapon- seen in the example of insisting Silent/Silver Silk \n\ncannot allude to him being an aspect of a Dionysian-like god, The Outsider, \n\nunless Silk is shown to have horns and cloven hoofs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...well, you have to set proper expectations. I can understand \nyour frustration in that you believe that you have discovered a \nrevealing understanding of a quite opaque story, and you would have \nliked some help, but all you get is hand-waving." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I apologize for the presumption but I've found myself in a similar position. \n\nThe warriors are often quite skilled at directing the battle to small, less \n\nimportant parts of a theory, effectively distracting attention from the larger \n\napplication and validity. Just part of the expected obstacles as James suggests.\n\n \n\nHow often have I been dragged into pointless discussions about monkeys when \n\nthe important concept on Urth (and the Whorl and Blue/Green) is the idea of a \n\nlarger god/being dividing him/itself into various smaller portions which are \n\ndistributed among lesser, smaller versions each with a different name or epithet \n\nwhich reflects something about their unique aspect.\n\n \n\nThis, of course, is why Dionysus is important to this story. What other pagan\n\ngod (other than Brahma?) did this. Isn't that what makes Dionysus an important\n\nprecursor to Christ and the Trinity more than, say, Zeus?\n\n \n\nI guess the cool thing about the Whorl and Pas is that we are able to get a real\n\nphysical view of the divided portions or pieces of a demiurge, as certain \n\ncharacters hold the electronic cards in their hands. How those pieces get distributed\n\ninto the personality and identity of our characters is, of course, veiled and confusing. \n\n \n\nBut I have little doubt the divide and redistribution process is meant to show us what \n\nis going on physically and spiritually in other characters including Abaia, Juturna, \n\nTzadkiel, Father Inire, The Mother, Seawrack, Great Scylla, Neighbors, SilkHOrn etc. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T23:02:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320508112.6827.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 05/11/2011, ?s 15:48, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He said in response to my question about the that Green is urth. Green is, of course, Urth's future.\n\nThis is the rise of the green man, and the ruins on green are all that remains of Nessus.\n\nI'm tired of this being misquoted.\nHere it is.\n\nhttp://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc282/maramini/IMG_0465.jpg" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm waiting for an explanation of how is Green better than Urth and what have Severian's trees got to do with Green. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: entonio at gmail.com \nSubject: Re: (urth) This week in Google alerts" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-05T23:40:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've always pictured Typhon as not looking a day over 33." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I’d have guessed 55 or 60 (with Piaton being 20-30). Not really “old” as\nsuch, but getting on a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman: I have trouble imagining how Severian could think a person" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "with a fifty-something head and a twenty-something head and body was born that\nway. But then I've long had trouble imagining how he could think it no\nmatter what the ages were. Were they matched in skin color, hairiness,\netc?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with Jerry on this. I always pictured Typhon and Piaton as appearing to be\n\nthe same age. I think Typhon speaks as a man in the very prime of life. I've\n\nalso thought that 33 makes an appropriate age for them, but the question becomes\n\nwhether that is a reference to Alexander or Jesus.(or both? there is a link there\n\nwhich is emphasized by the gnostic underpinnings of the story)\n\n\n\nTo reverse the Biblical reference, maybe we can all agree they are 33.3 years old\n\nso their combined age is 66.6.\n\n\n\nBTW and FWIW, I would like to sincerly thank Marc Aramini for posting the pic of\n\nhis card from Gene Wolfe. I think it is the only view of a manuscript of his\n\nwriting most of us will ever see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All the continents but Africa have big grasslands at temperate latitudes and\ncold islands off their high-latitude coasts. I don't see these as \"defining\nfeatures\", as you call them below." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only one of those continents is in the southern hemisphere though. And Yes, there\n\nare steppes and and veldt and prairies and other grasslands around the world. But\n\ncall them \"pampas\" and only one continent ought to come to mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think we can use geographical details of South America to help us read the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "book. Thanks for making me waste lots of time looking up the geography of South\nAmerica and other places :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ":-P, yep, Jerry, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The theory that South\n\nAmerican geography and culture is of little importance to the story isn't one I am\n\never likely to buy. Sorry for the waste of time, btw. I do agree it was. Perhaps\n\nGene Wolfe had no intention of pointing toward Lake Titicaca, which I've known of\n\nsince childhood, when writing about a lake in the mountains with floating islands.\n\nPerhaps he meant Prashar Lake, which I've heard of for about 10 minutes now (I'm\n\nguessing it hasn't been much longer for you). I don't know about Gene WOlfe but I\n\nknow he didn't have the internet when he created Lake Diuturna. I gotta go with\n\nsuch a lake as a defining feature of South America and you don't so I guess we can\n\nleave it at that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9FF7DD7C39F04ED8AB453EED549295BF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T00:27:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Gerry is a good example of a warrior. Notice his recent invocation \nof metaphor in doing battle against Marc's Green is Urth concept. Poetic and \nliterary interpretation are in his tool kit when they serve his purpose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They always have been. I try to apply the correct tools for a given task. In both cases the purpose I attempt to serve is understanding and correctly interpreting Wolfe’s work, which necessarily means challenging misunderstandings and incorrect interpretations, which can be literal or literary. \n\n“Green is Urth” is not of course in the books — it is an observation of Wolfe’s. It seems to me that it has a reasonable metaphorical interpretation. Humans have failed in Urth, as the Vanished People failed in Green. Both became to some degree hellholes of predation. On the other hand I cannot see a reasonable literal interpretation in SF terms.\n\nElsewhere, though, Wolfe’s characters themselves use metaphors when they talk about cannibal trees and suchlike, and they dream dreams that are dreamlike, and not literal statements about reality. I think Marc does not allow sufficiently for this. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But blunt, literal interpretations will be used when he feels they would are \nthe appropriate weapon- seen in the example of insisting Silent/Silver Silk \ncannot allude to him being an aspect of a Dionysian-like god, The Outsider, \nunless Silk is shown to have horns and cloven hoofs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have a blunt, literal interpretation that incontrovertibly works and is intended. Then we have a proposal to overlay it with an extremely vague and ambiguous reference based on a few similar syllables. Wolfe is a competent author. Why would he do that? In particular, why would he do it that way, which doesn’t really even work — the supposed references are not gods but fauns, and one was not associated with Dionysus at all. \n\nIf Wolfe wanted to indicate that the Outsider has more Dionysian aspects than one might expect of a god with a Christian heritage, he would do so in a clearer and less cack-handed fashion. Giving the Outsider some significant proportion of Dionysus-like attributes would have been a good start. Why would he play silly puzzle games (and make such ill-designed puzzles)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How often have I been dragged into pointless discussions about monkeys when \nthe important concept on Urth (and the Whorl and Blue/Green) is the idea of a \nlarger god/being dividing him/itself into various smaller portions which are \ndistributed among lesser, smaller versions each with a different name or epithet \nwhich reflects something about their unique aspect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you put forward theories based on monkeys, expect to get challenged on the subject. And with the possible exceptions of Tzadkiel and the Mother, I haven’t seen you talking much about anything near the gods as such in this context. \n\nThe theory (which I’ve never seen you propose in that form) seems at least at first sight to be back to front — the gods are often merging and ascending, being themselves redeemed, even. It is the false human representation of them that fragments. \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T00:33:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Prima facie certainly the continent is SA. But Nessus is not BA, at all, nor the Gyoll the Plate. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D3DE8504EAB427891C240C0529D5613@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T00:43:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320529488.21333.YahooMailNeo@web114716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn gerry at bindweed.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I’d have guessed 55 or 60 (with Piaton being 20-30). Not really “old” as\nsuch, but getting on a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have trouble imagining how Severian could think a person with a fifty-\nsomething head and a twenty-something head and body was born that\nway. But then I've long had trouble imagining how he could think it no\nmatter what the ages were. Were they matched in skin color, hairiness,\netc?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their hair is a different colour, but I don’t recall we are told anything more. I never really thought about it much. Typhon ruled an empire, and although he conquered Urth with famous rapidity, it seems to me that it must have taken some time. Nor would he, I think, have destroyed his health by dissipation, though of course he might have been unlucky. \nPiaton was the strongest of his slaves; and I assume fairly young.\nSo my (vague) impression was of a Typhon somewhat older than Piaton (though in no way doddery\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3AA51E07-9491-4942-8DAF-D4B1BBA3DC2D@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T00:48:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 05/11/2011, ?s 23:40, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW and FWIW, I would like to sincerly thank Marc Aramini for posting the pic of his card from Gene Wolfe. I think it is the only view of a manuscript of his writing most of us will ever see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great handwriting too!\n\nGreen is Urth, Blue is Neutral, Brownblack is Live.\n(sorry, couldn't resist)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39F2BA1926024B7CB9954249523FBCFF@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T01:16:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<3AA51E07-9491-4942-8DAF-D4B1BBA3DC2D@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nNo dia 05/11/2011, ?s 23:40, Lee Berman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW and FWIW, I would like to sincerly thank Marc Aramini for posting the pic of his card from Gene\nWolfe. I think it is the only view of a manuscript of his writing most of us will ever see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Great handwriting too!\n\nGreen is Urth, Blue is Neutral, Brownblack is Live.\n(sorry, couldn't resist)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL... but I never thought of that — could Wolfe have been making that reference?\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320544048.36861.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T01:47:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n\nI'm waiting for an explanation of how is Green better than\nUrth and what have Severian's trees got to do with Green. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blargh. I think Severian's salvation MIGHT perhaps be false, and that the green he brought is no better for man in his current state, only for his future state, and he leaves the planet anyway. Sev's trees hint at a consciousness that he can't quite touch but is on the cusp of contacting him. My sentient trees on Green is simply those ones woken up.\n\nPlease read my whole argument that James is still gentlemanly hosting.\n\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm\n\nI don't think it is better for Man as he was, only as he will be, as a stepping stone to something else (Vanished People)\n \nthe only reason I bring up Sev's trees is that it seems to hint that they are the original matter of Urth and that there is a consciousness waiting to speak to him. If that doesn't resonate with the sentient trees on Green then I can't be held responsible anymore and you must just not agree with it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T22:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320544048.36861.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nick Lee: Dionysus/Phanes is in every book Wolfe has written." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, THAT'S a statement!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And probably an incorrect one. I should have said \"almost,\" though even\nthat is a hard sell. The Sun Books, Peace, and The Sorcerer's House are\neasy to prove. Free Live Free is not as certain: \"Liber\" was an epithet of\nDionysus. I can make a strong case for Pandora and perhaps There Are Doors.\nLatro is too easy. Project Ares has a kind of bacchanalia at least. The\nothers could be difficult.\n\nThats interesting. I dont think I have ever heard that theory" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "proposed before. Do you know of any textual evidence that would\nsupport such a conclusion? It would seem to explain Inires\nconstruction of the Botanic Gardens and his preservation of plant life\nfrom Urths history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vertumnus was an Etruscan deity that became almost Protogonic. His\nmost popular myth was that of his seduction of the nymph Pomona. She\nwas highly sought after, including by Silvanus. Vertumnus assumed the\nguise of an old woman to enter Pomona's orchard. At various occasions,\nhe appeared as a man bearing apples, a reaper, and a fisherman.\n\nI think it's something of a coincidence to have a \"Green Man\" who\nappears in a book with shape changers and characters in masks.\n\nConsider this: Severian glimpses Tzadkiel's true form, but we never\nsee Inire's. When Severian must choose different paths in the\nCorridors of Time, he sees one with Tzadkiel and one with the green\nman. Ash says that the white path, Tzadkiel's?, would lead to him\nwhile the green path would lead to the green man's future. Severian\nchooses a third path.\n\nAlso look at chapter XXXVI of Citadel. In Inire's letter to Severian,\nhe mentions Agia saving Severian. He says he has ways of \"extracting\ninformation.\" He never mentions the green man, who was present at that\nencounter.\n\nThere's s part in UotNS where Severian mentions that he embraced Inire\nbefore boarding the ship that took him to Tzadkiel's ship. I don't\nthink we have a record of this scene. In Citadel, the green man and\nSeverian have been holding onto each other before the one departs and\nSeverian boards a ship. Is it the same hierodule ship that he takes\nlater?\n\nJust some thoughts." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T22:57:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Nick Lee " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nick Lee: Dionysus/Phanes is in every book Wolfe has written." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now, THAT'S a statement!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And probably an incorrect one. I should have said \"almost,\" though even \nthat is a hard sell. The Sun Books, Peace, and The Sorcerer's House are\neasy to prove. Free Live Free is not as certain: \"Liber\" was an epithet of \nDionysus. I can make a strong case for Pandora and perhaps There Are \nDoors. Latro is too easy. Project Ares has a kind of bacchanalia at least.\nThe others could be difficult." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe not. Since “Liber” is Latin for book, you have proved that Dionysus is in every book ever written! (Depending on your standard of proof, of course...)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2011-11-06T23:19:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ver-tumnus seducing Pomona? This must be before he moved to Narnia. I\nguess you could say he was \"fauning\" all over her, eh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Nick Lee" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Nick Lee: Dionysus/Phanes is in every book Wolfe has written." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Now, THAT'S a statement!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And probably an incorrect one. I should have said \"almost,\" though even\nthat is a hard sell. The Sun Books, Peace, and The Sorcerer's House are\neasy to prove. Free Live Free is not as certain: \"Liber\" was an epithet of\nDionysus. I can make a strong case for Pandora and perhaps There Are\nDoors. Latro is too easy. Project Ares has a kind of bacchanalia at least.\nThe others could be difficult." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe not. Since “Liber” is Latin for book, you have proved that Dionysus\nis in every book ever written!? (Depending on your standard of proof, of\ncourse...)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB71620.5040907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2011-11-06T23:20:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2011 5:47 PM, Nick Lee wrote:\n\n >Nick Lee: Dionysus/Phanes is in every book Wolfe has written.\n\n\n Now, THAT'S a statement!\n\n\nAnd probably an incorrect one. I should have said \"almost,\" though \neven that is a hard sell. The Sun Books, Peace, and The Sorcerer's \nHouse are easy to prove. Free Live Free is not as certain: \"Liber\" was \nan epithet of Dionysus. I can make a strong case for Pandora and \nperhaps There Are Doors. Latro is too easy. Project Ares has a kind of \nbacchanalia at least. The others could be difficult.\n\n Thats interesting. I dont think I have ever heard that theory\n proposed before. Do you know of any textual evidence that would\n support such a conclusion? It would seem to explain Inires\n construction of the Botanic Gardens and his preservation of plant\n life from Urths history.\n\n\n\n\nVertumnus was an Etruscan deity that became almost Protogonic. His most popular myth was that of his seduction of the nymph Pomona. She was highly sought after, including by Silvanus. Vertumnus assumed the guise of an old woman to enter Pomona's orchard. At various occasions, he appeared as a man bearing apples, a reaper, and a fisherman.\n\n\nI think it's something of a coincidence to have a \"Green Man\" who appears in a book with shape changers and characters in masks.\n\nConsider this: Severian glimpses Tzadkiel's true form, but we never see Inire's. When Severian must choose different paths in the Corridors of Time, he sees one with Tzadkiel and one with the green man. Ash says that the white path, Tzadkiel's?, would lead to him while the green path would lead to the green man's future. Severian chooses a third path.\n\n\nAlso look at chapter XXXVI of Citadel. In Inire's letter to Severian, he mentions Agia saving Severian. He says he has ways of \"extracting information.\" He never mentions the green man, who was present at that encounter.\n\n\nThere's s part in UotNS where Severian mentions that he embraced Inire before boarding the ship that took him to Tzadkiel's ship. I don't think we have a record of this scene. In Citadel, the green man and Severian have been holding onto each other before the one departs and Severian boards a ship. Is it the same hierodule ship that he takes later?\n\n\nJust some thoughts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My first thought in response is that it is a common fairy tale happening \nfor the Fool to encounter and free a prisoner who turns out to be a king \nof sorts, or a prince. The green man always struck me as a \"prince.\" But \nhe could be more." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-06T23:45:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB71620.5040907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe not. Since “Liber” is Latin for book, you have proved that Dionysus\nis in every book ever written! (Depending on your standard of proof, of\ncourse...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dionysus was also known as the \"logos\" or \"word.\" There are more ways in\nwhich he \"is in every book ever written,\" but they aren't germane to this\ndiscussion.\n\n\"Free Live Free\" isn't simply a coincidence of names. The Dionysian cults\nwere about \"living free.\" Also from Free Live Free: Jim Stubb (a stubbe is\na tree stump), Madame Serpentina (plenty of ties to Dionysus), Ozzie Barnes\n(agricultural reference) and Candy Garth (a garth is a field or pasture).\nCopious drinking is a theme of that novel as well: the \"bottomless drinking\nglass.\"\n\nIt might help you to know that my methodology of literary interpretation is\nnot wholly dependent on authorial intent. We see that \"through a glass,\ndarkly\" as Robert Scholes put it. Pan/Dionysus is a pretty common\nmythological allusion, however, even in science fiction. Just look at *\nDhalgren* and *This Immortal*." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T01:28:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 06/11/2011, ?s 23:45, Nick Lee escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Free Live Free\" isn't simply a coincidence of names (...) Copious drinking is a theme of that novel as well: the \"bottomless drinking glass.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We had this colleague who drank (but he's recovered, iinm) and some called him Bacchus. We called one of his friends Silenus." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T02:42:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm waiting for an explanation of how is Green better than Urth" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: I don't think it is better for Man as he was, only as he will be, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as a stepping stone to something else (Vanished People)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, in priniciple I agree. But why should the Vanished People be the ultimate\n\ngoal for humanity? They are hairy (like goats?) and tribal and have that weird \n\nindeterminacy like Shadow Children. They have dreamtime like Australian aborigines\n\n(and Shadow Children). And giant sea gods live in the oceans of their world.\n\n \n\nSurely the most noble of noble savage tribes is still a spiritual step below that\n\nof Christians in a book by a Christian author. Shouldn't there be a Christ sometime\n\nin the future of Briah. Would Wolfe really have created a universe in which there is\n\neternally no hope for true salvation? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320633830.64647.YahooMailClassic@web161806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T02:43:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google Alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/6/11, Nick Lee wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Nick Lee \n\n\n. Pan/Dionysus is a pretty common mythological allusion, however, even in science fiction. Just look at Dhalgren and This Immortal.\n\n\n\n\nWell, Delany, Wolfe, and Zelazny are PARTICULARLY mythologically oriented in much of what they do, I certainly buy into the cult of personality and authorial intent for those guys, ranging from mythological allusion to outright belief." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1320634629.36365.YahooMailClassic@web161801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T02:57:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sun, 11/6/11, Lee Berman wrote:\nFrom: Lee Berman \n Shouldn't\nthere be a Christ sometime\n\nin the future of Briah. Would Wolfe really have created a\nuniverse in which there is\n\neternally no hope for true salvation? ???\n????????\n?????? ???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's our different view, the Christ in my mind lived in Briah already and syncretized with the conciliator myths later.\n\nDivine salvation and continued earthly or yesodi existence are two very different things, as the angel far above the rooster in the infirmary's tale in Citadel is still infinitely far from the prime deity, so are these advanced numinous other life forms equally far from that original source, though powerful beyond belief compared to simple humanity. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB7F693.3040706@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T15:17:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<1320544048.36861.YahooMailClassic@web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote (06-11-2011 01:47):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- On Sat, 11/5/11, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm waiting for an explanation of how is Green better than Urth and\nwhat have Severian's trees got to do with Green." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blargh. I think Severian's salvation MIGHT perhaps be false, and that\nthe green he brought is no better for man in his current state, only for\nhis future state, and he leaves the planet anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Meh. I think this is a point in serious need of review." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev's trees hint at a consciousness that he can't quite touch but is on\nthe cusp of contacting him. My sentient trees on Green is simply those\nones woken up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's fair." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Please read my whole argument that James is still gentlemanly hosting.\n\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/marc-aramini1.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've read it more than once before.\n\nI'm seriously beginning to feel like those people who spent their lifetimes \ntrying to circumnavigate Africa's atlantic coast and never got to see the \nIndic. It's something those born in the 20th century never experienced, the \nUnknown-which-we-know-is-there." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T21:53:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB7F693.3040706@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nSo Dionysius of the vine becomes another aspect of the Outsider in man's future fate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I agree (not with all the details, perhaps, but with this). I\nthink the Outsider has been established by numerous references as\nGod, the Abrahamic God (both the Father and Jesus); when he is also\napparently identified with Dionysus, that implies that Dionysus is an\naspect of the true God. (And this idea is not totally original with\nWolfe.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think rather than staying strictly gnostic, Wolfe's syncretic habits and the recurring theme of imitation begetting something genuine REDEEM the gnostic and pagan elements in such a way that they, too, become salvific." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I think that _Long Sun_ starts out looking like an allegory of\ngnosticism, with the Outsider as the true God, and Pas as the\nDemiurge. But in the course of the series it becomes clear that there\nisn't a straightforward opposition between the true God and the gods\nof the world; some of them can be redeemed, some may even turn out to\nhave been aspects of the true God all along. That's a redemption of\npaganism. I'm not sure it can be called a redemption of gnosticism,\nbecause the opposition is central to gnosticism as it's generally\nunderstood. rather I'd call it a rejection of gnosticism by redemption\nof the gnostic gods of the world (demiurge/archons).\n\nI think the scene where Silk contemplates jumping off the airship is\nsignificant; he thinks for a moment that the Whorl is evil and he\nshould leave it - a gnostic thought - but then overcomes this and\nrecognises that the Whorl has much good in it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-07T21:59:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n. “There’s another very interesting use of ?aspect”, though:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*******************************************************\n“Is it known that all the gods are Mainframe?” ?Sciathan awaited an explosion with some anxiety; when it did not cone, he added, “Equally is Mainframe all gods. ?Mainframe in its aspect of darkness, which in this tongue is termed Tartaros, issued my instructions.” [Exodus]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The interesting thing, I think, about both Kypris or Severian as\naspects of the Outsider, and Tartaros as aspect of Mainframe, is that\n'aspect of X' clearly doesn't just mean a form which X assumes; they\nare people with a real existence, a consciousness of their own, but\nsomehow forming part of a greater whole. I would guess the same is\ntrue of Silk as aspect of Pas." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB897F4.8050806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T02:46:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (07-11-2011 21:53):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure it can be called a redemption of gnosticism,\nbecause the opposition is central to gnosticism as it's generally\nunderstood. rather I'd call it a rejection of gnosticism by redemption\nof the gnostic gods of the world (demiurge/archons)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the scene where Silk contemplates jumping off the airship is\nsignificant; he thinks for a moment that the Whorl is evil and he\nshould leave it - a gnostic thought - but then overcomes this and\nrecognises that the Whorl has much good in it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This as well.\nAlso the part where Hound wants to go to *Green*." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T03:06:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB897F4.8050806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Yes. I think that _Long Sun_ starts out looking like an" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "allegory of gnosticism, with the Outsider as the true God, and Pas as the\nDemiurge. But in the course of the series it becomes clear that there\nisn't a straightforward opposition between the true God and the gods\nof the world; some of them can be redeemed, some may even turn out to\nhave been aspects of the true God all along. That's a redemption of\npaganism. I'm not sure it can be called a redemption of gnosticism,\nbecause the opposition is central to gnosticism as it's generally\nunderstood. rather I'd call it a rejection of gnosticism by redemption\nof the gnostic gods of the world (demiurge/archons)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this view. I also think it is congruent with WOlfe's stated\n\npersonal beliefs regarding the gods of the pagan world. When placed in\n\nthe position of demiurge rather than tyrant, Typhon/Pas was constrained\n\nto act as one.\n\n\n\n(FWIW, I consider this an important principle in modern global politics-\n\nallow a terrorist group to assume the position of being a government and\n\nthey start acting like one. Israel should take notes from Wolfe, unless\n\ntheir current anti-Palestinian state policy is secretly in hopes of not\n\nlosing a convenient scapegoat) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T16:25:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n(FWIW, I consider this an important principle in modern global politics-\nallow a terrorist group to assume the position of being a government and\nthey start acting like one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm, yeah. Just look how well that worked out with the Khmer Rouge..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T17:08:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(FWIW, I consider this an important principle in modern global politics-\nallow a terrorist group to assume the position of being a government and\nthey start acting like one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l: Ummm, yeah. Just look how well that worked out with the Khmer Rouge..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGood counter-example as would be the genocidal rebel-elevated-to-leadership of \ncertain African nations. I suppose any simple statement about global politics\nis likely to break down under scrutiny.\n \nI didn't mean to imply, of course, that terrorists should be given free rein\nto replace legitimate, well-functioning governments. But I do think rebel\nmovements which represent a majority of the local residents are a better\noption for government than no government at all or endless decades of \nforeign occupation. The transition from soldiers to statesmen will happen.\nSlowly, in some cases, but inevitably.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB96F24.5020405@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T18:04:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/8/2011 11:08 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI didn't mean to imply, of course, that terrorists should be given free rein\nto replace legitimate, well-functioning governments.\nBut I do think rebel\nmovements which represent a majority of the local residents are a better\noption for government than no government at all or endless decades of\nforeign occupation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was a non-sequitur transition from \"terrorist\" to \"rebel\" here. I \nimagine that if northern New Jersey were inclined toward the ambitions \nof Al Qaeda, NYC would prefer endless decades of occupation of that \nregion to democratic government." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T19:04:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB96F24.5020405@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: There was a non-sequitur transition from \"terrorist\" to \"rebel\" here. I \nimagine that if northern New Jersey were inclined toward the ambitions of Al Qaeda, \nNYC would prefer endless decades of occupation of that region to democratic government." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me it seems \"sequitur\" or as a logical connection. We have heard the terms \"terrorist\", \n\"rebel\", \"insurgent\" and \"freedom fighter\" all used to describe the same group. Or they \nmay be used to describe different groups exhibiting the same behavior. The choice of label \nseems to depend more on the loyalty or sympathy of the speaker than differences in action.\n \nAl Qaeda is a good example actually. They've had no inclination or aspiration to take\nleadership of a particular nation. Doing so would be the end of their terrorism. If a\nterrorist group out of Bergen county, New Jersey were put in a government position, they'd\nsoon be forced out of the terrorist game by affairs of governance. Who has time to make and\ndeliver bombs when there are millions of local people demanding services? And what would be the \npoint of those bombs,once you have power?\n \nWasn't George Washington \"First in war, first in peace, first in the hearts of his countrymen\"\nfor so admirably and effectively making that transition?\n \n(apologies to others for this brief political digression. It won't last long) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4EB9822E.1050309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T19:25:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/8/2011 1:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAl Qaeda is a good example actually. They've had no inclination or aspiration to take\nleadership of a particular nation. Doing so would be the end of their terrorism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haven't they been rather open in their ambitions to establish an Islamic \ncaliphate? They were the standing army of the Taliban when they ruled \nAfghanistan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If a\nterrorist group out of Bergen county, New Jersey were put in a government position, they'd\nsoon be forced out of the terrorist game by affairs of governance. Who has time to make and\ndeliver bombs when there are millions of local people demanding services? And what would be the\npoint of those bombs,once you have power?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What makes you assume a government is required to worry about demands \nfor services. The Taliban didn't worry about a drop in tourism and \nbanned the sale of birds in the market because their singing was \nunIslamic. An alternate option is to just mobilize the population for \nwar instead of worrying about improving people's lives. You seem to be \nassuming that terrorist groups do what they do just because they like \nmaking bombs and blowing things up. I'm pretty sure that's not true. If \na ruling party with it's capital in Bergen had a central tenet that NYC \nwas an illegitimate contrivances of evil whatevers, there's no reason to \nthink they wouldn't act on that just because Meals On Wheels is lobbying \nfor extra funding." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T20:02:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "<4EB9822E.1050309@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to clarify, sometimes self-governance is only a means to other equally important ends. If our hypothetical Bergen Party thought NYC itself was occupied territory, ending the occupation is not really an option.\n\nSent from my iPhone" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2011-11-08T21:13:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) This week in Google alerts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: You seem to be assuming that terrorist groups do what they do \njust because they like making bombs and blowing things up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think some do. Others are angling for political power. The ones that get\nthe power must, by necessity, redirect their efforts into keeping that power\na very different game. Often they must learn to stamp out their own terrorist\ninsurgents, demonizing those who use the very same tactics they had previoiusly \nused." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Haven't they (al Qaeda) been rather open in their ambitions to establish an Islamic \ncaliphate? They were the standing army of the Taliban when they ruled Afghanistan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, there was never more than a few hundred Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. They weren't \ntrained as local Afghan soldiers to carry guns and stage ground attacks. That was/is\nthe Taliban. Al Qaeda were arabic terrorist types trained in making bombs and such.\nThey were all kicked out of Afghanistan years ago (including bin Laden). Neither side \nof the Afghan civil war ended up liking them very much.\n \nAnd the Islamic Caliphate stuff was lip service. Just silly talk. There hasn't been\none glimmer of such a thing produced by the efforts of Al Qaeda. Just blown up \nbuildings and planes and stuff. I must conclude they like doing that more than they\nlike Islam. I guess they can get some credit for supporting the current Islamic regime \nin Mogadishu, such as it is. But that's about it.\n \nI guess we'll probably have to disagree, James. Perhaps there have been some minor blips \nin history where a government regime consists of a small minority who manage to enslave \na majority of millions, starving them to death and using the economic pillage to finance \nendless attacks on other nations. \n \nI can't see that as sustainable for any length of time, despite the fact that my own national \nmedia/government paints a relentless picture of that scenario to describe its enemies. North \nKorea is surely not as nice a place as its government portrays it to be. But neither is it the \ndesolate wasteland of enslaved millions, starving and dying like dogs in the streets, as we are \ntaught it is. They used to say that about Cuba also, until recent documentaries have provided\na more honest picture of life in that nation. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }